This and That: 2017 US Classic
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- Опубліковано 23 сер 2024
- The figure skating season officially got underway with the 2017 U.S. International Figure Skating Classic and Lombardia Trophy. We are back to break down the best and worst of this weekend's events. It was a weekend of triple axel attempts, Turandot, cringe-worthy programs, recycled choreography and questionable music edits. We discuss all of it and more in the first 'This and That' of the Olympic season.
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I'm so happy someone other also sees and appreciates the changes of the spin positions to the music in Shoma’s program. But I must say also the last spin in Nathan’s SP was nicely placed to the music. Really, these little details are everything.
And I also agree that it’s incredible how Shoma dominates the ice rink and captures attention when you see his little body and child’s face. I’ve seen him live twice and it’s THE EXPERIENCE.
I had the stupidest grin on my face when I saw the notification. Cannot wait for the rest of this season!
SAME!
FInally!! I've missed your videos.
Thank you! I watched Jason's short program and the entire time I was thinking, "Is this being dubbed over the real music he's skating to? This can't be real. This is awful." I was sooooo perplexed and was waiting to hear what you had to say about it. I thought I was crazy and needed validation either way. lol. Can't wait for your Olympic season commentary.
This video is officially kicking off the Olympic season..Welcome back.
Love your commentary! A bit controversial but juicy and in depth (in ways that non-die hard figure skating fans would never understand). Keep up the good work.
Can't believe that the season's just started and you are back guys. Welcome
I agree with both of you: I LOVE Jason and I LOVE Hamilton, but I really cannot force myself to love this short program. I too am shocked this survived Champs Camp.
Jonathan: "I like threw up in my mouth several times." --Ha! I love you guys!!!
I missed you guys so much!!!
I was about to start prepping class for tomorrow, but then I saw your vid and say "Well, that's not gonna happen now ;) "
So happy to have this back
I was so excited to open up UA-cam to see a new video!!! It has been a long summer without TSL. I can't wait to watch it! Thanks Dave!
I am LOVING Nathan's long this season!!! That Rite of Spring is giving me so much Olga Strazheva realneass that I can't handle it!! Amazing!
Wait, so Alexa and Chris, who have been the top US finisher everywhere from 2015 onward, just outscored the other leading US pairs by like 20 points while leaving a ton of points on the table, but their Olympic spot is questionable? That's harsh guys. Just speaking in general, I think the best way to get optimal performance from these skaters in February is to not heap tons of pressure on them.
envision1ri What I was attempting to say was that if a pair is not landing two side-by-side triples, the door will remain theoretically open...regardless of how improbable anyone ever surpassing them is. I currently don't see a team that could actually challenge them, but stranger things have happened in this sport. They are also a team with health concerns for both partners. It was more a reminder that nothing is ever really final in this sport. McLaughlin and Brubaker were also a sure bet in September 2009.
Fair enough, something strange or terrible could happen. Regarding the 2 triples, even Sui/Han the World Champs fall a lot on their second triple, and I don't think it would be fair to hold A/C to such high standards. The other Chinese pairs going to the Olympics still do 2A, so clearly, there is more to pairs than this. I am just more forgiving of jump issues in pairs because everyone at the top has them too. The key is being strong at other things aside from just jumping.
I would have loved to see McLaughlin/Brubaker at the Olympics, but they had already not done so well at the previous Worlds (which sadly was their only Worlds), finishing outside the top 10 behind the other US pair. Keauna was going through puberty and they even popped a throw. Their size difference became small and it was sad to watch their twist shrink as it had once been a real highlight element for them. Their throws and lifts became more labored and Keauna was underrotating jumps. They nearly hung on, but Keauna went through puberty at the worst time in '09-'10 and the height difference was not really enough anymore. Fortunately Alexa has no such issues so I see very few similarities between the two pairs' situations.
And actually, I still might have sent McLaughlin/Brubaker to those Olympics. I think there was way too much pressure on them that season, and it would have dissipated by the Olympics. Even with their growth related issues, I still think they could have had the best US result if given the chance. At the time, I didn't really get the impression that pairs was a US priority, they were open to sending anyone. But it was indeed evident that puberty was affecting that team on every element.
but Sho doesn't do cantilever in the short!? also missed u guys, so happy you're back!
Watching this with the subtitles on is the funniest thing I have done in a while! Welcome back, 'tis the Olympic season!
its so nice to ser you guys I could hear you forever.
I must confess I cried during Jason's long program haha.
I loved it even with technical issues.
Blessings to you both can't wait to hear you guys again!
Grilling hard boys, grilling hard. It's only the first competition of the season dang.
The Japanese media says that Satoko is just taking her time to get ready. The withdraw isn't due to her injury, her first competition will be the Grand Prix! All the best wishes for Satoko😢✨
You're back omg
I do agree about Jason's short program. There was a lot of buzz over Hamilton but this particular piece doesn't seem to fit skating that well?
I am so happy you are back!
I'm only halfway through the video and already loving it. Any scoop of Anna Pogorilaya and her problems? I'm hoping she can also get her headcase issues under control...
I think at least two jumping passes should be in first half of free program, to make them balanced. ISU do it, not your other ridiculous ideas.
Agreed.
I've missed you David finally figure skating season has started 😊
Soooooo needed this!!!
Do not worry guys, Marin has prepared a new short program! She had Tango first but she changed it to something that she really likes. She said it is a music that she heard in Mie Hamada's car. I am looking forward seeing it!
Oh thank god there's a new video
I always appreciate hearing what you all have to say on TSL! I have no background in skating but I just love watching it. With Tessa and Scott, I got a bit sad by your comments but I guess i understand where you two are coming from. I personally loved the long program, but it could be because i'm a musical theatre major lol. I just think that good to have at least one reallyy extra team who's going to bring the theatrics. They'll certainly get attention of perhaps new viewers who are randomly tuning into to figure skating on TV during the olympics. Tessa and Scott always bring me into their story and I think they're true entertainers. I know that skating is different than theatre, but I just love them:)
YAY UR BACK
You rake good pairs over the coals, but then praise a pair for making a bad twist less bad and glance over jump issues when jumping is their main thing. Jonathan did acknowledge Cain/LeDuc don't match in their movements though. They have scored even lower than Castelli/Tran in their first season. The hype is silly.
Also, intentionally doubling one of the SBS triples isn't that odd in pairs, even at bigger events. The team that won Lombardia Trophy has done it plenty of times. It's easy to say that jumps should be easy for pairs since they are only 2, but the demands in a pair program are so high that nothing is easy.
It's interesting that Bradie doesn't get a mention. She really just doesn't seem on the radar for this cycle does she, no matter how well she does. Still some things to work on.
Nelisa Oii As for Bradie, she competed very well. If she does well again, we will surely begin discussing her as a true Olympic possibility. I don't think she quite has the presence of the other top four contenders, but she certainly showed the technical ability to deliver.
I don't think Amber's result helped her case.
I think this is the best Max's has ever looked.
Can you please cover the live streamed press conference w us contenders at the media summit next week? Sure to include many cringe worthy moments and skater-seque answers. Also, I get that it's a children's book and that it was just an idea her agency had for a pre-Olympic money grab, but the Karen Chen book thing is pretty funny. Maybe wait until she's won a Grand Prix medal or non senior b medal? Her and Ashley's Grand Prix fields don't seem too tough though. I can already hear in my mind Ashley trying to defend Moulin Rouge 3.0 and. I . can't.
Agree with the assessment of Jason's short program. I was so looking forward to his programs in the Olympic year. I'm NOT a fan of this program at all. I hope he changes it!!
Disgruntled pairs fan here--- There are 10 elements in a pairs LP that have nothing to do with jumping, including 6 major ones. Some of the jump critique is valid, but a lot of it is overboard, especially when you have World medalists missing jumps (see Tarasova & Morozov's recent outing). It isn't singles skating.
Pairs is also not ice dance. If Dean only wants to work with ice dancers and doesn't want to adapt to pairs, then he should turn pairs away instead of taking them on. If you don't want to figure out how to choreograph for Alexa & Chris who have a great deal to offer as a pair team, then just don't offer to choreograph pair programs. I don't want to speak negatively about Dean though. Alexa & Chris seem to enjoy working with him (I believe they see him regularly) and have complimentary things to say about him. And I do believe he has already made some nice changes to their Ghost LP, which they reportedly only had one week to re-learn and practice. If you're going to excuse away poor performances from other pairs, then you could at least acknowledge that the Knierims had 1 week to get a program competition ready, which is a tall order (not to mention, they legitimately did a good job and scored well.)
I also saw more than one person say Alexa and Chris did great at Champs Camp (not that camp is that important but still). They beat the other top US pairs by a lot, again, this past week, and that was without even getting credit for a triple jump, which is highly uncharacteristic for them. Alexa doesn't pop jumps. They have been proving themselves over and over for 3 years. But these facts don't make for as dramatic of a TSL video.
Leah McConnell yes but watch the chinese the haver the artistry musicality, chemistry and technique they have it all.
Yeah Sui & Han are really good. It still doesn't mean pair skating = ice dancing. I wouldn't expect ice dancers to be able to do most of the things pair skaters do either. They train differently.
Beating the other US pairs is a low bar right now.
To be fair- They did mention the levels they are losing ont he "silly things" as well.
We're these skaters even alive for Tonya/Nancy?????
Any chance that Ashley Wagner will switch back to La La Land after all?
Can't there be a petition to keep Jason's Hamilton mix from going any further? Jason and Hamilton are lovely separately, but that program is so wrong
Also I love Marin, she's my favorite skater right now but I wish you could hold your bias a bit, Dave. Especially with the battle of Japanese ladies this season. Still enjoyed watching you guys, happy to see you back!
Good dissing on West Side Story. Seriously. I have to assume her other choice was Slaughter on 10th Avenue. Agree on Karen Chen comments. I'm disappointed in her product this year. And Nathan's programs are epic. Period. Welcome back!
So happy you guys are back!!!
So here's an article from NBC about why Ashley ditched La la Land. olympics.nbcsports.com/2017/09/20/ashley-wagner-moulin-rouge-la-la-land-free-skate/
I wonder how many girls are pissed at Ashley for deciding to go back to Moulin Rouge. I'm sure there are some senior ladies out there who wanted to use the music, but when they heard that she was going to do it decided against it.
I guess going back to Moulin Rouge wouldn't be so bad if everyone and their mother wasn't doing a program to it too.
Thank you Ashley for birthing a new skating war horse. I'm probably going to hate this soundtrack by the end of the season.
Do you guys personally think Nathan needs all those quads? Assuming his artistry improves by olympics, do you think he needs 6 quads? Personally, i think he just needs 4 or 5 quads since the base value of them are so high. What do you guys think?
I disagree with your comments about "Miss Saigon" - I think it's one of the better choreographed free programs that Mirai has had. And I saw I, Tonya - while skating is a big part of the movie, it focuses more on her damaged relationships with Jeff and her mother. Allison Janney steals the movie but Robbie is very good as Tonya.
One other thing - no mention of Bradie or Amber from Lombardia Trophy?
There is already video of Adams program out there. From some club competition he did this summer....
welcome back.....anyone know why Max Aaron doesn't do the triple flip anymore?????
Must be edge calls.
Maybe I missed it, but what changes are the ISU looking to make to the judging? Just the idea of that scares me, since the existing system is pretty inefficient and rife with cheating (see Chanflation and Yuna/Sotnikova 2014). The scoring system never really got any fairer after 2002, just more convoluted. Unfortunately, it actually became even easier for judges to pad the scores of their favored skaters, AND they could do it anonymously. Now with Medvedeva and Zagitova backloading to the extreme and presenting terribly unbalanced programs, this is what I feel needs to change. ISU are you listening?
1. Put a cap on the maximum PCS score that can be given. In the previous system, 6.0 was considered "perfection", and there was nothing above that. A limit needs to be set as to what the top PCS mark is for "perfection". This will keep these inflated scores from going up, up, up with no end in sight. It will also heavily limit the amount of padding a judge can give his or her favored skater on this most subjective part of the scoring. I've seen the judges make up a disastrous 14-point deficit for Patrick Chan who fell three times in his LP to give him a phony come-from-behind victory, all in PCS marks. Absurd.
2. Eliminate the +GOEs. In no other judged sport is there anything like this where a judge can give his preferred athlete a huge boost via "brownie points" on individual elements just because a skater jumped higher or farther or had a prettier layback. One perfectly executed triple axle, triple lutz, quad toe, etc. with the proper edges, air position and landing is just as good as any other and should earn the same amount of points. The wide subjectivity here from one judge to another can give a skater a huge point advantage over another who otherwise skated a perfect program. +GOEs have been grossly abused since they were instituted, with the perfect example being Sotnikova's scoring in Sochi. Get rid of these brownie points for favored skaters. It's a huge mechanism for cheating.
3. Scoring should be based on deduction of points and NEVER addition of points. Skating should follow the judging style of gymnastics. Before a skater takes the ice, he begins with his total technical maximum point value, as if he'd skated the routine perfectly. As he skates, deductions are taken from that total as he makes mistakes throughout the program. NO +GOEs. The skater's technical score is whatever he/she has left at the end of the program after mandatory deductions are made. To that amount, the PCS are added that are capped out at and cannot exceed a maximum that determines "perfection". That's the skater's total score.
4. A skater can only be eligible for the 10% bonus if they perform a minimum of two major jumping passes with one in combination in the first two minutes of the program.
5. No more anonymous judging. Judges must be named and be publicly accountable for the marks they give. A single incident of cheating earns a lifetime ban. No questions asked.
In the end, I agree with Scott Hamilton who said that the judging system didn't really need to change after 2002, but what did need corrected was the way the ISU selected (and punished) judges. That never happened, and we now have what we have today.
god send for me--captions--thank you so much..
I have so much to say, just from the pairs part. Just over the top negativity about the Knierims and not giving them credit for being a positive light in a sea of low scores and dicey pair skating. I get that the better you are, the more criticism there is, but at some point it's unfair. You wanted them to ditch Chaplin, now give them time with something else. Ghost looks good on them and there are powerful parts along with more gentle parts.
The attacks on Alexa are personal. Why do we need to know about her illness beyond that it was gastrointestinal and took surgery to fix? If she releases her private medical records, the peanut gallery can chime in and play doctor. Maybe it was a very complicated, difficult to explain problem. I'm curious about it too, but maybe have an ounce of understanding as to why she doesn't make full medical records public. At least she has been relatively open about what she went though.
I'm not sure what a 2 or 3 week camp with Nina Mozer could do that a 1 week camp could not (which US pairs had access to). I'm not sure Nina would even allow a team there that is a legitimate threat to her pairs. I agree outside help is nice, but right before the Olympics is not the time to still be in a learning phase and hop-footing off to Italy for camps. You don't even want skaters to do domestic shows in the Olympic year, but then you criticize them for not flying to Italy? Be fair.
Much perfection as a response and shows a great knowledge of the discipline of pairs. TSL showed a lot of negativity and also ignorance in-regards to the pairs discipline in general. Also this teams personal plights, health issues, and recent death in their family, for them to be as ready as they are is admirable. Those things effect both skaters not just one or the other??? as they are married not just a skating team. I am sure they are working on everything and sure they have reason's for making the choices they do as all the teams. I'm very excited for their year!! I think it will be an exciting Olympic season. TSL is just bloody wrong here I'm disappointed in them. #truthabsoluteEliteEastEmily
EliteEastEmily. We both liked the Knierims programs two years ago. We don't love this long, but it is our personal opinion. The comment about the shows is inaccurate. I was making a point that there are some skaters who have sat out shows in order to do everything possible to train and improve for the Olympic season. Others...repeat both programs, one for the third season. The lost income of a few Stars shows is more than made up for when one achieves meaningful results. It is a gamble, like everything else in this sport. It was more of an observation about the skaters who have gotten to the top in the U.S. in recent times.
As for the medical comment, we were bringing up that a lot of attention is brought to something and discussed, yet not discussed---which only begs for more questions. It is nothing personal. It is merely a comment on if they don't want to say what happened, perhaps it shouldn't be referenced as frequently as it is.
EliteEastEmily Multiple weeks/months with a top guru in the sport (and training alongside other skaters) is why centralized training centers exist. We felt it would be helpful to send multiple teams to benefit from that expertise. I personally do not think any of the American teams could currently be considered a threat to Mozer's top team.
It's interesting how people can watch the same things and feel so differently. I think Ghost is such an improvement for them over Elizabeth the Golden Age. The latter music is a little frantic and difficult to skate to. Ghost just fits them better, not because they're married, just the overall feel of it, which allowed them to go into 4CC/Worlds on hardly any training time and do it well. Of course, not everyone likes Ghost and finds it excessively sweet. I find their cut tasteful with good contrast.
It's true that by bringing attention to her illness, it raises more curiosity as to what it actually was. At the same time, it's an inspirational story even without knowing all the specifics. She has described her symptoms and what she went through in detail (ie. losing a lot of weight, having very invasive surgery), and just knowing she overcame all that is really a good story that is worth sharing with people.
Didn't EEEmily say threat to "Nina's Pairs"? Has S-K/K ever beaten any team of Mozer's or gotten higher score on twist? Curious?? If someone knows answer? Never know how to look up things. I assumed that they went back to Ghost due to the recent death of Chris father? I know they just said in interview it was special program to them? Health issue? Love the program glad they are doing it again. GI stuff is not usually easy to define? There are no guarantees in the interviews I've seen they do not assume. I'm guessing they are aware ice is slippery at their level as athlete. I can only imagine the pressure on them and how hard it must be to put all that they have been through aside and focus. Alexa is a rockstar! It was sad when you say Chris is effected and why? Watching your wife/soulmate almost die then loosing your father and you are effected? I would hope so. I'm sure they will sort it all out and in the interview SLC they do not say any excuses. I respect them both so much as a team and for the emotion they are showing. May all the teams have a great year. It is always better to skate when everyone at top-form. Glad season has started.
So happy your back!
OMG the comment about paying for carolina's medal with adelina's LOL
Has Ashley announced she would be skating to moulin rouge again?
First, it's been too long without This and That! Second, what happened to La La Land for Ashley's free skate? She even had a video about the creation of that program. So Moulin Rouge a third time...
Those not in away reflective on the hard work or talents of the skaters. But I would like to know and someone please answer me. How is Alina Zagitova programs 20 points more than Marin Honda. I do not claim to be an expert on figure skating, but no matter how many times I watch the two skaters long programs the math just makes no sense to me.
I want to know either what are these judges smoking or what pot of gold are they dipping in that we don't know about. I think as fans we all need to take a stand and make some noise this season. Take to what ever form of media we can and really cry bloody murder. Otherwise I feel like come Olympic time when the world turns it eyes on figure staking the sport will take another hit to its integrity.
Nit many understand Nathan artistry, I think people dont understand cause Nathan is contemporary art which takes time for people to start understand
Some of this was just too harsh. Hahaha, the Kristen Maloney reference. I thought Mariah was skating to Beauty and the Beast.
Yaaaasssss!!!!!!
I missed you Dave💕💕💕
Loved what you said about Kaori! Yeah let's find her a partner lol
OMG!! The Kristin Maloney reference at 1:03:08!! Too funny!!!
You rake good pairs over the coals but then praise a pair for making a bad twist less bad and glance over jump issues when jumps is their main thing. Cain/LeDuc have scored lower than even Castelli/Tran did in their first season. The hype is silly. Also, intentionally doubling the second SBS triple happens even in bigger events, it's not that odd. The team that won Lombardia Trophy has done it several times. It's so easy to say 'pairs only have two jumps how could this be hard', but it's far from easy especially as the content is getting harder.
Didn't Dianne de Leeuw from Orange County compete for the Netherlands and become World Champion? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianne_de_Leeuw
Yes.
💚💚💚💚💚
loved it! but no discussion of Mao retiring? 😢 also think it'll be a stretch for marin honda to medal atnolympics... with alina that would he two straight out of junior on the podium! my guess is evgenia alina then either kaetlyn or gabby. hoping marin and anna will be top 5!
yosily we did a bunch of posts on her retirement last season. I wasn't sure at which point she retired since we last filmed. We surely miss her beautiful skating.
I'm not mad at Ashley doing Moulin Rouge again. That program brings out the best in her.
Totally disagree Chen is not as musical as Shoma. What Nathan's skating to is so much more subtle and abstract than the classical warhorses Shoma picked and to me Nathan's FS takes a much more sophisticated and cerebral kind of understanding of phrasing, colors, layers, and melodic changes to interpret and Nathan showed he absolutely gets it and did a wonderful, wonderful job esp for an 18-year-old. I didn't want to say anything about Uno, but since a comparison was made between him and Nathan here I have say his musical interpretation to me always seems kind of one-note. He skates to pretty much the same sort of dramatic music and does the same sweeping and dramatic gestures. It's funny and ironic that Dave said he thought Nathan was good until he saw Uno, because I felt the exact opposite. After watching Nathan's FS I watched Shomas programs and thought they were so one-dimensional and a bit cliche compared to the emotional depth of Nathan's FS. Nathan also uses his arms and hands in many more varied and nuanced ways. I get mesmerized watching them move so seamlessly from one gesture to another, so well positioned in space and each with a purpose - can't say the same about Shoma. Shoma is more overtly expressive, and probably deserves higher PE for the projection, but it really doesn't mean he is more musical or better at interpreting music.
I totally agree with you. That word. Emotional. Shoma is excellent, but when I watched Nathan's fs, I felt some emotion, and was touched by that. It is quite different between when you skate to a warehouse and to something original.
Indeed. Nathan's FS feels like a personal journey. A story.
Yep! Extremely beautiful.
Finally find someone understand Nathan artistry, I think people dont understand cause Nathan is contemporary art which takes tie for people to star understand
19:10 Heres the deal, if they brought back GHOST...it means that she isnt healthy. #psychexam
Or that his dad died recently.
right...l
She says she is as healthy as she's ever been. They hardly skated last season, so it makes sense to bring it back.
why does he hates Lea? that's so mean you know you have filipino fans too Dave. Lea is great an including her in your discussion doesn't make sense focus on the skater not the artist :( disappointed fan
Thea CM He was making a joke that I wouldn't like a musical theater singer because I am an opera singer :)
Jonathan Beyer ohh. Ok thanks for clarifying 😋. I've been watching TSL since 2013 and was a Lea fan too because of the obvious reason I'm a Filipino and I really think she's great .
And sorry I didn't get Dave's joke . You're wonderful Jonathan and had one of the insightful thoughts about the sport . Thanks and by the way I love opera too Torandot is one of my fave. GBU
I LOVE Lea!
I really really want to like Johnathan. I just get the feeling he is the kind of guy who would shun people at a party because theyre not pretty enough.
Matthew Hines I'm the person at the party eating all the guacamole. 😂
Sister!
Jonathan is one of the kindest people I know!
Well fuck. So youre saying my commentary is cruel and inaccurate? Now I feel like Monica Phelps. Actually Im 1/2 through the epi and loving you both. Thanks guys.
yuzugold but I've been to parties with Dave. He's at the guacamole bowl with me. 😂💃🏽
Gracie just needs to get laid!!! God damn, I missed you guy's! Been searching several times a week for weeks anticipating this video!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!