I have enjoyed and celebrated all these great players, Lin Dan, Axelsen, LCW, Hidayat and Gade all displayed exceptional skill in their own eras. The only what if for me is Momota. His was a career blighted by misfortune and there is no doubt that he was a rare talent even in this class of way over-achievers. I think that seeking to isolate a GOAT is just a disservice to all these amazing players and we should celebrate them all equally as any, and all of them, have been the best in the world.
I'm very sad that you didn't even mention ChenLong.... The fact that ChenLong deserves to be labeled as a legend on proves that LinDan is more deserving to be called as the GOAT, because ChenLong and LinDan almost played in the same generation, yet, ChenLong was easily overshadowed by Lindan.... A further testament of how good LinDan really was.
@@let-them-just-let-them I didn't intend for this to be an exhaust listing or I would have needed to spend far more time on my reply. Chen Long is a great player and so is, for example, the legendary Rudy Hartono and I didn't mention him either.
Thats not a fair comparison. It’s lacking in vital context. Axelsen was dealing with a recurring ankle injury and had yet to reach his physical peak. Judge him based on his accolades, not a misleading head to head record
@@phillipjrgensen1024 why do you make it sound like he wasn't at his peak? He was world number 1 even when Momota was in his prime. Y'all make being world number 2 sound like a fucking failure.
@@sujaynis3905 Because he wasnt. The Axelsen that emerged in the aftermath of the pandemic induced lockdown was a fitter, stronger, more complete player.
Come to think about it . What KM has archive is all done within a span of 5 yrs from 2014-early 2016 and 2018-early 2020 .its amazing actually , we can only imagine how much more he can do without the suspension & car accident . Coincidently , VA won his 2016 bronze and WC17 during KM suspension and follow up by 2 Olympic gold after the 2020 car accident . In conclusion , when KM is in the badminton circuit , VA become the bridesmaid . Just like how LCW was the bridesmaid during the presence of prime LD.
@@HolgerDanske874 wow you know more about Kento Momota body than the person himself . Face it Dane , it was an easy route for Viktor to win Olympic gold after his vision was ruined and other injury. It’s also unfortunate that his fragile body is unable to recover fully . 2019 is not even prime KM if he was able to develop further into his late 20’s , we’ll be looking at a much powerful Momota .
@@randomchannel1004 He said himself nothing was wrong with him physically. If that's so, then what was the problem? Axelsen had injuries his entire career. When Axelsen finally had surgery for his ankle injury he came back a monster. Post-surgery Axelsen 2-0 Momota
@@HolgerDanske874 what nonsense , non factual shit are you spewing ? Did you watch Momota Japanese interview after retirement ? He was more open about his injury and said there is nothing more the doctor can do about it . He wasn’t open about it cause he didn’t want his opponent to exploit his weakness . I rather Momota suffer a sprain ankle or a gash rather than a crack eye socket and hernia that prevent yr body from turn/twist. He just couldn’t perform after the accident . You danish are just happy that KM wasn’t there to challenge VA for those international title. What is establish as FACT, is that whenever KM is fit in the circuit ,VA is always the bridesmaid . It’s just that 2 unfortunate tragedy ruin his career . VA 2 gold medals hold not much weight as LD 2 gold medals , if you watch the opponent he face in both Olympic , he manage to avoid LZJ, post accident KM, Ginting , Christie , CTC . Compare that to the opponent LD has to face en route to Beijing 2008 gold. LD needs to take down park sung Hwan , Gade, Chen Jin and finally LCW with that superhuman performance .
I’ve always said that the Lin-Lee rivalry is one of the large reasons why Lin Dan is the GOAT. The current era would have benefited significantly if Momota was there to make this generation’s rivalry although it would’ve probably benefited Momota rather than Axelsen just like it did for Lin Dan.
To be honest, Lcw only beat Axelsen in world tours and WC 2014. In WC 2014, Axelsen is still a young boy. Axelsen won Lcw in a more bigger event like World tour finals twice. So we can say lcw major competitions mentality is super weak.
@@Java597 Bro these professionals play All England, China Open, Indonesia Open more seriously than World Tour Finals. LCW has beaten Viktor in tournaments like the World Championship and Thomas Cup. And even during the end of his career he has beaten Viktor badly. Just accept the fact that Viktor couldn't keep up with the fast phased accurate players like KM and LCW.
@@MB-ov5xjThat's just like beating a little kid. Axelsen was 20 years old bruhhh the last time LCW bear Victor. I think Momota is the goat but that's another debate
@@saksham5829 He was 24 which would be a prime for any other player and Chong Wei was way past his physical prime and was 35 or 36 at that time. It's not even a comparison with these legends if one can't beat them being young.
@@MB-ov5xj ok lil bro calm just goes to show you havent seen them play in person. I think LCW is a better player than Axelsen. I saw him play more than 20 times. I have seen Axelsen play 30 plus times. But what Ive seen when Momota played. The shot quality, the precision stroke after stroke rally after rally. Easily the Goat. The closest Ive seen someone play to perfection
Well, I'm neither a fan of both, and I greatly admire Axelsen's humility. But, I genuinely agree with Axelsen when he said "Lin Dan" is the GOAT. Let's not forget that LinDan's era was the pinnacle of Men's Singles. He had LeeChongWei, ChenLong and TauFik as his rivals, and yet, he was able to dominate all the major tournaments. And Axelsen couldn't even dominate when Momota was around. It may be true that LinDan didn't have the longevity as good as LeeChongWei's, But in terms of the level of game they had during their peak; LinDan was undoubtedly the best. Considering that it has already now more than 10 years, It's also very obvious that the generation of LinDan/LCW/CL/Taufik still had a much solid game style. You can easily compare how the singles games these days, Their foot work, their skill set are much inferior as compared to that of the era of Lindan.
Lin Dan straight up dominated from 2006 to 2014 and never had a losing record against anyone during his prime. Viktor was inferior to Kento Momota from 2014 to early 2020. If Momota were to keep playing and let Viktor win another 12 matches, Viktor was in an inferior position to recover the losses while Lin Dan straight up dominated his opponents, including Chen Long and Lee Chong Wei.
WOW! Been busy recently and this is my first video in a while! Happy to see that your videos are as good as I remember them. I'm really happy to see that you are considering both objective and subjective arguments. As a Momota fan, I'm also really happy you mentioned him. But for me, at least now, I cannot see Viktor overcoming Lin Dan... I do hope to see the start of this new era, but I don't think deep within I will ever be able to accept that he is better. And this is completely subjective, it's mainly because of Momota's absence. Thanks again for a great video Ben! Keep it up!
Oh my. What an amazing video. You put in fair analysis, taking into account each players' respective era and the level of competition from different perspectives as well. I also like how you incorporate Kento Momota's H2H. He was certainly the contender to be the GOAT back then, if not for the accident. Well done man.
Chen Long is a great metric when comparing the generations of Viktor vs Lin Dan / LCW. Chen Long's career was right in the middle of these two generations, and seeing how he matched brings insights. Chen Long has a near even record against prime / "losing their prime" LD & LCW. Chen Long has a 14-6 record against a "ramping up to his prime" / prime Viktor Axelsen. The older generation was clearly a tougher match for Chen Long, which further supports the goat debate leaning towards Lin Dan, and the toughness of his era.
@@HolgerDanske874 Agreed, Viktor Axelsen was clearly the better player there. That being said, 2021 Chen Long was definitely past his prime. Not taking anything away from this win by Viktor, just stating that CL faced tough challenges from both prime Lin Dan / LCW and prime Viktor, and he seemed to struggled more against the former generation.
@@HolgerDanske874 do you know chen long had really bad blisters on his feet after round of 16 which prevented him from moving correctly if you look closely you would see the guy was jumping with 1 leg near the net all the time but being a humble man he never said that to press you can look up the photos of it
It's probably unfair to compare different eras but i honestly think that Viktor wouldn't have achieved what he did (even at his peak) if he was playing during the same era/period as prime Lin Dan and prime LCW. Prime Viktor in the last few years has had very few rivals at the top due to his rivals' inconsistencies (not due to lack of quality). Also...it is worth noting that in recent years, traditional powerhouses like Malaysia and Indonesia have not produced the same level/quality of men's singles players as compared to during Lin Dan's time. This has helped Viktor's cause massively.
Lin Dan, LCW etc. were lucky they didn't face prime Axelsen. In his young days, he had obvious weaknesses in lack of stamina and foot work. He had to work hard to fix that and since then he became a monster. He beat Lin Dan when he was far from his prime.
Kento Momota was suppose to be the nemesis and rival of Viktor Axelsen right after LCW retired in 2019. As km and va are both the same age but km younger by few months . Unfortunately the accident in Jan 2020 crack his eye socket , as a consequence destroyed his game perception , his confidence , his reaction time and vision ; while Covid took away his stamina . VA dominating current era is like LCW able to dominate his era with absence of LD.
It is closer than people like to think it is, VA still has time to prove that he is the GOAT. But damn does he have a lot more to climb, and he has no real rival to push him further like LD with LCW, not since KM’s accident. You need a good story just as much as the accolades. It’s not just the medals, it’s how you got them and who you beat enroute. Did you overcome a freak of nature (like LCW or 2019 Momota)? Or did you overcome lesser beings? Lin Dan overcame them all. Including the greatest uncrowned king in all of badminton history.
Yep. Kunlavut is good no doubt... but I can't imagine him being in the same league as LCW (yes, even if KV has a world champion gold medal). That said, KV is only 23. Let's give him another 5+ years.
This topic is so subjective. One thing I personally feel is that Viktor had more weaknesses than Lin Dan as a player. As I have said before, and some others may also have said, Viktor has lacked stamina since 2014 and even now he makes many errors due to fatigue. His lack of endurance hinders him if he gets moved around the court and it becomes a 3 game match. Lin Dan on the other hand never seemed to burn out. Dude was a machine. Furthermore Viktor does not have the deceptive shots of Lin Dan. Lin Dan would break opponents' ankles in many matches. Viktor almost never does this because he lacks the prowess to do it consistently - believe me, if he could get free points off deceptions, he would, but his co-ordination isn't good enough like that. Both have exceptional mental strength - unlike most players, they tend to seize the first MP they get - so it's about neck-a-neck there. Lin Dan was more agile... so there's that. Although Viktor's smash is steeper his swing had more telegraph and was easier to read than Lin Dan's. If you watch them, Viktor has the textbook smash form so it's telegraphed and easier to read, but Lin Dan's arm starts higher up, goes back slightly less far behind him (I think) and barely follows through. This makes his smash really hard to read. Just my 2 cents. I hope you can see the points I'm making
@@SolomonClarkeFitness80 Every player is different bro. How can Viktor play exactly like Lin Dan ? As long as their strategy works most of the time, it is all good. Based on track record, VIktor is more comfortable playing Lin Dan.
@@Java597you don't have to go too far , take momota - he's just slightly better defensively and just a little worse offensive version of Lin dan and result was seen in past years
@@james77ling This is my honest opinion right now . I just wish Viktor Axelsen does not repeat Lin Dan's same mistake by cheating his wife with another woman . Lin Dan cheats his wife after his two golds and I wish Viktor Axelsen do not repeat Lin Dan's cheating wife mistake as Viktor Axelsen wins 2 golds as Lin Dan too . I'm just very afraid the 2 gold medals are a curse which will bring something very bad to the player .
@@maidinblueandwhite3443 I don't see why you have to lump someone's competitive result with their personal life. Saying that is like saying you should not try for a whole year of domination, because you may get car accident like Momota.
A really great video including all things I'd like to talk about. I'm personally in LinDan but have to admit that Victor is truly dominant these years(only except for Shi Yuqi I guess). Let's just see.
To be considered the GOAT, it takes more than impressive statistics. Take Novak Djokovic in tennis: he may have the most records, but Roger Federer has revolutionized the sport, giving it a new aesthetic and elegance. In badminton, the question of the GOAT is even more complex, as each discipline has its own appeal and requires different skills. Nevertheless, I dare say that Lin Dan is the GOAT in badminton. Not only has he won two Olympic gold medals, five world titles, and six All England titles, but he has left a lasting mark on the sport with his aggressive and athletic style of play. His spectacular jumps and indomitable spirit have inspired many young players and increased the popularity of badminton. Just as Federer has made tennis a global spectacle, Lin Dan has made badminton accessible to a wider audience. His legendary rivalry with Lee Chong Wei captivated audiences and made for unforgettable matches. Of course, Viktor Axelsen also deserves the greatest recognition. He won two consecutive Olympic gold medals. He broke the Asian dominance in the men's singles and proved that European players can also compete at the top level. In addition, Axelsen promotes badminton beyond national borders with his open and cooperative manner. He trains with players from different countries and shares his knowledge on social media, making him a role model for the "new generations". I would say: Axelsen in Prime would beat Lin Dan in Prime. Axelsen is challenging by Kento Momota's exceptional defensive strength and ability to dictate the rhythm of the game. Although, Lin Dan remains the GOAT for me. He played at a time when the competition in men's singles was extremely strong. Lin Dan had to beat legends like Lee Chong Wei, Taufik Hidayat and Peter Gade, whereas today's generation lacks that consistency and dominance. Players today are showing their potential but cannot match the success of the previous generation. Today's badminton scene is more diverse, but also more unpredictable. Lin Dan's achievements, his charisma and his influence on the sport of badminton
I think your contemporaries matter in a discussion like this. If we make a all time top 10 list how many will be from LDs era and how many from VA? The level of the top performers are the ones that stand in your way winning titles. Love the videos Ben 👍
The comparison/similarity between Axelsen and Djokovic in this video is SPOT ON. Viktor can end up achieving more than Lin Dan but still won't be considered the GOAT due to the legendary rivalries of LD-LCW (and for Djokovic...the Federer-Nadal rivalry). Also...💯 agree on Ben's point that men's singles during Lin Dan's era was stronger at the top end (i.e. Top 5 players in the world) compared to Viktor's time now. However, in terms of overall depth and quality...I would say that men's singles now is better in terms of the Top 30 players in the world. Also, it's more diverse now with strong players coming out of countries like Japan, India, Taiwan, Thailand, Hong Kong, and even France...which we didn't see during LD and LCW's time.
@@dickyminer3030 Sure. It's definitely possible for Viktor to win another Olympic gold...especially without players the level of Lin Dan or LCW around to challenge him. Also...being badminton's GOAT is not just about the Olympics. There's also the World Championships and All-England...both of which Viktor is still behind Lin Dan.
Who says that Djokovic is not considered the GOAT lol. Surfing through social media posts to see more than 80% of them stating that Djokovic is literally the GOAT based on statistics. Comparing Viktor and Nole is straight up false and irrelevant 😂.
Great video, and I agree with the sentiment for the vast majority of your points. It will be nearly impossible for Viktor to become the GOAT given the points you have laid out, though I still see it as possible. However, I do wonder something about this whole GOAT debate, which is: can ANYONE ever dethrone Lin Dan as the GOAT? He is held in such high regard by so many people, and it feels as though even if someone did surpass his achievements, people would still find a way to keep Lin Dan on top.
Yeah that's a tough question. Honestly, had Momota not been blighted by misfortune he had all the makings of being that guy. It's going to take someone equally special to do it now. Insanely special
Very much agreed. I wasn’t really a badminton fan in 2019 but I can imagine watching Momota in 2019 was a similar experience to Viktor in 2022. Crazy to think that he might have got even better.
There are three (3) things you do if you want to compare this era's stars vs the ones in the 80's, 90's and early 00's. One - make all the players play the old 15-point, best 2 out of 3, score points only if you serve matches! Two - give them the old rackets (25lb/11kg max tension) with old strings so they can't smash above 160mph/258kph..!! Three - no more AIR CONDITIONED ARENAS! Old days especially in Southeast Asia, it's 100°F/38°C+ temperature inside the arenas with 100% humidity!! It's especially suffocating when the audience is breathing in oxygen and expelling CO2 inside the arena and no air conditioning!! Everyone's fanning themselves because it's so damn hot! Most Europeans don't make it past the first 2 rounds. Now, you are on a level playing field with the past. More short players can play the grind it out game because you can't smash past them like you do now. Games will be longer (at least 1 hour) and they will be the norm. Much more 1.5h - 2h games. Rallies will be long and more frequent. Doubles will have 30-50 smashes per serve! Singles will have 30-40 strokes per serve! Only the truly skilled and powerful can shorten the games. Otherwise, it's gonna be a marathon! Let's see how today's players handle that!! I believe Lin Dan can survive in this era because he played the 15-point game before in those conditions, but I don't see Axelson doing too well in this type of environment. Morten Frost did okay but never won a world championship. So much competition back then. It was a harder game...
I think the conclusion about higher win% from the older era is exactly reversed from what the conclusion should be. The modern field has a deeper field of players close to the top, so each win is hard to come by.
Its about reputation about phenomenal about influence about excitement they brought to the table about fire about style about arts of badminton about grit about mentality. Lin dan is the greatest of all time
It’s hard to compare when the age gap is so Big. The didn’t face each other in their primes. Viktor only just turned 16 when he faced LCW. But You can look at titles, and Lin Dan is the GOAT for sure.
Ben. I was so happy to see your video. If it's only about honor, then Lin Dan must be No. 1. But discussions are always interesting because people come to conclusions by combining their own subjective and objective views. In fact, this discussion actually reflects two contradictions: 1. The contradiction between the past and the present. 2. The paradox of using other players to compare the assumptions of two people's peaks. The first contradiction, I think, is not suitable to be explained by "times are progressing, so it must be more difficult now than in the past", but to compare the overall performance of players in the two eras. My personal comparison is this: in 2011, Lee Chong Wei and Chen Long can have more than 80% of the annual win rate, Chen Jin and Gade can also have more than 70% of the annual win rate. In 2023, Shi Yuqi, Kunrawut and Li Zijia all have an annual win rate between 60% and 70%, and many races are very unstable. So it's hard to compare them to the players of the past. This leads to the first contradiction: "Victor's era is not as good as Lin Dan's era". The second contradiction is actually an extension of the first. People use Lee Chong Wei, Chen Long and Momota as the middle players to complete the comparison of the two. Specifically, Lee Chong Wei in 2018 can also beat Victor, and the peak Victor is not better than Lin Dan, who can suppress the peak Lee Chong Wei. So I mean, what seems to be a comparison between Lin Dan and Victor is actually a comparison between two eras. For the first contradiction, I personally think that the stability and competitiveness of players in Lin Dan's era are greater than those in Victor's era. For the second contradiction, I think it is necessary to choose the time when the two players' annual win rate is close, such as Lin Dan Lee Chong Wei Chen Long and Victor in 2017, such as Momota and Victor in 2020, so as to connect the two people😊
@DL.j early 2000s yes, 07/08 onwards I'd say the difference is the minimal. The musclepower 99 though...iconic and a beauty of a racket. The Armortec 700 is a racket I'd say could definitely hold up today
Nice video as always Ben... for me.. both are superrr.. but.. lin dan got rival.. and its make me feel, the competitions in lin dan era harder for him to win..(i feel, maybe not the fact) axelsen barely got someone who can challenge him consistently.. shi yuqi and momota should be his rival.. but both fall short.. ginting, jojo, antonsen, naraoka, Vitidsarn and lee ji jia 1 lvl below axelsen for now(IMHO). if only momota and shi yu qi can challenge victor... i think lindan vs axelsen would be really hot topic.. everytime i see axelsen in final.. its 90% of the time i feel he'll win that match.. i definitely agree with u.. if only momota didnt crash.. momota and victor rivalry may be like lindan vs lcw.. and maybe we can said axelsen goat.. :) sorry for my bad english...
Everybody in the comments saying Axelsen improved so much what is true but we cant just overlook how Momota literally just took his pocket money away. After Momota had his accident nobody could challenge Axelsen making his game look so flawless what many people would see as big improvement but in my opinion if u dont get challenged its really easy to play your game and bring out your best performance cuz if the opponent is lacking to play good quality shots its more easier for u to play your good quality shots.
How could Momota improve.? All you have see is all the the other Japanese ms Badminton players Momota was the best of Japan style which took him to the limit.
@@Hammerhook12 Whats that kind of question just cuz your from that country means you cant improve? Sounds like „How could Lee chong wei improve he was malaysias best MS player since there is no one better then him he cannot surpass his predecessor“ huh?
@@John-jd2qm LCW had the physical tools but also the intelligence. He was also a late bloomer in relation to Lin Dan, Taufik But LCW could smash the shuttlecock like there isn't no tomorrow. Now..(spelling). Kenta Nishamototo, Tsuniama, Narouka Point is.. All these Japan versions are mirrors of themselves. Momota prime was at a dead end.
Just saying at the time of Lin Dan, there were a bunch of really good player and for Viktor Axelsen right now everyone good has retired such as Lin Dan, LCW, Chen Long, and Kento Momoto.
In terms of achievements, yes, Viktor ≈ Lin Dan (LD) >> Chen Long ≈ Lee Chong Wei (LCW) ≈ Taufik Hidayat. However, in terms of dominance, the answer is no. Lin Dan, in his prime, demonstrated that he was capable of beating any top level ocmpetitors rised up who challenged him. Unfortunately, Viktor hasn't shown the ability to consistently overcome Momota, until Momota's declined due to off-court issues. In LD's era, LD follwed by LCW were clearly the best, far ahead of everyone else. In Viktor's , it's like: Viktor → Shi YQ → Momota → Viktor → ... cycle, plus player like Kunlavut, kodai, with players like LZJ and Prannoy occasionally stepping up and defeating some of the top names.
Lin Dan’s career was just too good. All respect to Axelsen but Lin Dan has better stats and achievements playing in the hardest era ever. He dominated LCW who many consider at-least a top 3 player ever.
Don't you think you might be neglecting one other factor that during Lin dan's Era, only 4-5 players were really good players and players ranked above 10 weren't as strong to compete or even if they were good, they lacked confidence. while in current era, most of the top 32 players have the potential to beat anyone on the circuit. So it's more competitive now rather than before. Just for example, we have players from Frnace like Toma Junior Popov beating Anthony Ginting and Victor Axelson. Many players ranked outside top 32 also beat top 10 players and may be not because top players are inconsistent but because lower ranked players are also trying to play thier best. Recent example is Lei Lan Xi, Leong Jun Hao, Chia Hao Lee etc.
did you watch badminton recently or something? lin dan had to battle through taufik, park from korea, bau chun li, poonsana, peter gade, kenichi tago, Jorgensen, chen long, chen jin and lee chong wei, li hun 2 and various other players. The only difference is these players didn't have the media or the recognition nowadays players get. Hence people think "this is era is more competitive, more challenging" etc etc which is complete bs. This era is so inconsistent you can't even predict who'll come in the finals of 3 straight super series.
@@akshatjayakar8907 Chen Long, Tago and Jorgensen 5/6 years younger than Lin Dan. Tago never got any WC or Olympic medal anyways. They reached their peak in 2014-15 when Lin Dan already past prime and was not reaching WC medal matches except last time in 2017 where Axelsen was the winner. In which case, 23 years old Axelsen already better than those 3. Not strong competition for prime Lin Dan period. Peter Gade is 7 years older than Lin Dan yet he never won a gold in Olympics or World champs. Where was he in years before 2005? He only reached WC silver and bronze once then. By 2005, he is already 29 years old, and didn't win. He would not reach WC bronze again until 2010-11, by which time he is already 34 years old. Is it strong competition when 34-35 year old player who only reached WC semis 3 times in his career is reaching WC semis? Past prime Peter Gade is not a strong opponent for Lin Dan. Taufik, too, didn't do much after 2004 Olympics or 2005 WC. Didn't reach another Olympics medal match. Only reached WC medal match another 2 times where he lost every medal match in straight sets against Chen Jin afterwards. Poonsana 0 WC or Olympics medals. Highest ranking of 4 only. Li Hyun Il no Olympics medals, one WC bronze in 2006. After that, no competition for Lin Dan. Retired after 2008 till 2010 and hardly played any matches. By 2010, already 30 years old.
@@akshatjayakar8907 are you a gambler are smt? part of the competitive world level is that it is competitive, not everyone could win everything. Is not meant to be predictable whereas who win or lost.
@@AnNguyen-ch3qi we're literally talking about who is the BEST at the game. And if you are the best, you should at least get to the finals of major superseries. China open itself is a testament to this. Japan open as well. And Beckman literally spelled it out that the previous era WAS more consistent. All todays players have one dimensional games.
I think another point that is worth mentioning is playing style. Using the tennis analogy again, a lot of people still consider Federer to be the GOAT, despite Djokovic having all the records, because his tennis had a certain style to it which was much more pleasing to the eye than Djokovic's long baseline rally style. Now I think Viktor obviously does not have a boring style, but Lin Dan's attacking, aggressive style was so exciting to watch for so many, which in turn leaves a bigger impact in people's minds.
Maybe one of the greatest badminton European player of all time. Lin Dan is just a freak of nature, one in a million talent, dude can be on hiatus for a year and still mauled top player like LCW. LCW doping issue is the reason why he shouldn’t be in the conversation.
I live in a great time to still celebrate the hardship and grind that all these top tier players have gone through for this sport. I don't see many of the next generation to pull these achievements. They come and go, and for many different reasons, new rules, new injustice, new managements, etc.. basically too many bs that keep them away from performing and upkeeping their ranking.
My opinion is that the gap between players' standards has been drastically reduced such that it is very difficult for players to dominate in the Singles game. Regularly, there are players who performs amazingly well in one tournament only to fade back into mediocrity again. Lin Dan and Chong Wei surpasses the rest of the players in the tournament by a rather large margin and Lin Dan being able to counter Chong Wei's game most of the time, it is naturally easier for him to earn his titles. World ranking becomes more important as a factor that indicates consistency then, and Axelsen surpassed Lin Dan in that aspect. Lin Dan shows up for the big games, but Chong Wei plays more tournaments and wins more often as well, and the latter's achievement as World No.1 is often underestimated imo.
@@hanguyenmanh6058 as Ben said, maybe the really top 5-8 isnt as consistent as it was. But the overall level is way tougher , before you woulndt see too often a top20-30 beat a top 10 player. Now it happens at every tournaments. Why ? Because its not same ressources, now you have youtube/videos to studies matches/training, athlete are doing way more international training instead of staying at their national training center. so at the very top its weaker/inconsistent but on the overall level it's the competition is way more tough. Whereas before it was easy match for top 10 against top 20-40.
the fact is that Lin Dan has an average of 89% win rate over 10 years (2004-2014) and Axelson only had 21-22 two years of prime. You are telling me that Axelsen surpassed Lin Dan in consistency?😂Lin Dan can even enter the final of world championship in 2017, when the first time he entered the final was in 2005.
@@Ey3shi3ldtv "The level is weaker, but competition is tougher." If Ben said this, it would've been the most stupid take of all time. The GOAT debate is about who performed on the highest level possible. "Greatest of All Time" for a reason, not "Greatest in this particular era". You should be ashamed of yourself for even typing this out.
Your videos are really good and high quality, congratulations on your recent work, keep going! This video in particular is really well made, I thought that 30 minutes was too much for such a subjective topic to be discussed, I thought it was going to be just some spread out opinions but you proved me wrong, you were really able to turn this into a very entertaining and way more objective video about there careers which factored a lot of important points to consider in such discussion. I belive you deserve the title of the goat of badminton writing and teaching badminton history! I just wanted to question you about something, I consider Lee Chong Wei to be the best badminton player. Although he hasn't won olympic gold and has lost way more matches against Lin Dan he has still some impressive achievements. The question is simple, would you consider him the best if he had topped everything you mentioned Lin Dan did (meaning he had more all england, world championships etc.) except he still had the same head to head against Lin Dan?? I think he should definitly be considered the goat in that situation because to me I feel like if Lee Chong Wei wins against everyone else except for Lind Dan and Lin Dan wins everytime against Lee Chong Wei but is inconsitent and looses to other players some times then that means Lee Chong Wei is better beacuse he is better than everyone and just can't win a specific player because of his playstyle or strategy, but still beats the others. Anyway just some thoughts I was having, Keep up the great work!
@@phillipjrgensen1024 They are in the same age bracket and coincidentally VA won bronze in 16 and WC in 17 when KM wasn't there and won 2 golds after KM's car accident when KM was there VA was always 2nd best..He could've been in conversation of GOAT even if he had an 8-9/14 record against KM but with 3/14 against an opponent which is in your same age bracket you can't be called a GOAT
To me, as a dane, no one will ever reach LD! Besides your objective facts, I simply liked his style! It was beautiful. VA’s style is more…..mechanic, more physical.
I think a good idea would be have a video about the most talented players ever. I know it will be hard to compare and even create a metric for this but it will still be entertaining. My personal pick for this would be taufik hidayat. Also, I think if you want to select goats; lin dan > lee chong wei > kento momota (the injury was outside his control and here I am taking only his pre injury career into account) > VA
Is is important to distinguish between the GOAT and the BOAT (best of all time). Lin Dan will always be the GOAT. Others may be heralded as the BOAT but no one will ever surpass LD as the GOAT. I personally make the distinction based upon distinction feel and the weight behind a career and accomplishments.
@@BenBeckmanBadminton Best is more about their actual level compared to the competition and how many times they won. Greatest is more to do with the weight of their accomplishments and the combination between logical and emotional evaluation. VA has won back to back golds at the Olympics but they didn't feel like they carried the same weight as when LD won his gold. It felt like LD had to overcome more thrilling moments and participated in more 'iconic' matches than VA. Iconic is another adjective used that lies closer to greater than better as there are intangible factors that contribute to naming it as such.
@@BenBeckmanBadmintonfor example, any top 50 current 100m sprinters in the world are literally "better" than a lot of world/olympic champions in the past. And it's a fact, because u can just compare their times. But are they "greater" than those past champions? Absolutely not, hopefully that explains it better
there was a point where Lindan doesn't have any equal opponent anymore and probably got bored and started diving the shuttle most of the time to entertain himself. My problem with axelsen is he is kinda a dirty player and shuts up on obvious wrong calls.
the current era defo has much better depth in MS, but the top order quality was much higher in Lin Dan's era which makes it a 'harder' era imo. His H2H with Momota does not help him at all like you said. Also we have to assume that Viktor goes 3/3 in the next 3 WC's to match the 5 titles from Lin Dan which is not easy. I guess also the longevity (and consistency) of LD also surely plays a part in it.
A good point, what I was trying to angle at more was that the factor of Viktor had it much easier or his era is much weaker isn't as strong an argument as people think.
yea i got you! also if you think about it in another way, shouldn't Viktor be winning more continental titles since its 'easier' also i do think Viktor would be right up there with LD, LCW, CL etc but yea its a fun comparison
If we look into context of LD and VA first olympic Gold medal: Lin Dan had to face Park Sung Hwan who was a dark horse during that time , as he is capable of giving a hard time against the best player. Follow by European best at that time Peter Gade in the QF, follow by his compatriot Chen Jin in the SF who also wanted the gold for his country and one of the best in 2008 , and finally a superhuman performance against his Arch-Rival LCW. In comparison, Viktor Axelsen face Wang tzu-wei from Taiwan, who wasn't a contender that time in R16, follow by SYQ in QF who is China 2nd seed at that time and also a challenge but only beat Viktor once at that time , in the SF he got to face a Guatemalan player (KC), which all due respect without taking away his credit, was an anomaly to reach the SF ; and finally Chen Long in the final. If you look at CL route to the Tokyo final , he has eliminated LZJ, CTC and Ginting who were all top 10 seeded . Because of these tough matches . he had a huge blister on his toe that hinder his footwork. It's already a bless that Momota was not at peak condition in 2021 but It's another miracle for Viktor that he manage to avoid those players CL has face in Tokyo 2021. As for 2024 Paris Olympic , it's up to you to analyze. But in the 2024 Olympic , his biggest threat was SYQ , LZJ and maybe Christie. All of them also he avoided enroute to gold, but need to take into consideration that SYQ and Christie choke in the Paris Olympic, that's why they never get to face Viktor.
Viktor has damn good luck man. The gold at Tokyo for Viktor would be utterly impossible if momota was at his peak, why? Momota and Viktor would face off in the semifinals. He wouldn't even had gotten a chance at silver. If that accident never happened, this whole conversation about Viktor being a GOAT would never have taken place. Forget winning Paris gold, he'd have never won gold at Tokyo.
I agree with much of what you say except for his biggest threat. To be honest, SYQ, LZJ and Christie would've stood no chance against Axelsen. This is the cold hard truth. As a massive SYQ fan, his performance during the Olympics would've seen him get smashed and done in by Axelsen, same with Christie, same old disappointing performance. LZJ is the only case where you can say he would be deemed a threat to Axelsen.
Yes, absolutely yes Something highlighted by one of your points and often forgotten in the debate is the origin. Had Carolina Marin been Chinese, her achievements wouldn't seem as impressive, right ? Coming from Europe is a disadvantage. You don't get to train with the best or with nearly as many infrastructures. I'm aware Denmark is big on badminton but let's be serious here. Do you think they have even half as much as China ? To me, achieving high results as a European is already amazing. Just look at the best players of all time and count how many aren't Asian I must add that, to me, as a European, Viktor is much closer to my heart than Lin Dan. Most badminton fans are also in Asia which plays a role, impact wise. I started truly following badminton in 2016 and grew up with VA. Perhaps more than his game itself, it's his class that always set him apart for me. Look it up, there are so any examples of Viktor being absolute class in attitude, in and out of the court. His will to always grow closer to his fans, give them more advice and insight, all of this has left a deep mark in me. That and his professionalism that can't be topped at the moment. Yes, Lin Dan's mark is his style and I feel like he filled the shoes for that kind of mark. But to me, Viktor left a mark, a new height in attitude and what we want to see on court. Viktor is my childhood hero and my own personal GOAT
@@FACTSONLY186 Well, hello stranger. As you're aware, youtube exists and I have foundly followed Superdan and Datuk Lee Chong Wei's carreer. Now, if being young is a crime, that is one I didn't know. At the end of the day, the GOAT status is a personal opinion. Mine is that Viktor can sit at this table. But you are more than free to think otherwise That being said, I hope you are enjoying the current World mixed team championships. I also hope that whatever anger that led you to leave this comment goes away, anger is never among the nice feelings to have. Have a wonderful day !
your way of comparing era's by looking at consistency really doesnt tell anything, if the general level was lower in the current days but the gaps between player levels is bigger then it will show more consistency, because back in the day the gaps between the top players could be lower it looks like less consistency. besides that, consistency is only a really small part of determining the overall strength of a player. you could factor in things like how much trouble axelsen had with Lin Dan, LCW and Chen Long (and later on with momota), even when all 3 were already over the hill and way past their prime. also Axelsen has been quite lucky that Momota got in that accident, because without that i doubt he would have won gold in Tokio. for me, like many others, its very clear that the overall level is way lower then back in the day with players like LCW, Chen Long and Hidayat (and many can be added to that that are stronger then nowadays competition. Therefor i think it is impossible for Axelsen to ever be the GOAT.
Axselson will never be Goat. why? he was never the best in his own era. simple as that. most of his achievements are benefits from the absent of greater player. such as Olympic 2016 bronze, 2017 WC gold, 2020 Olympic gold. during this time, i mean clearly momota>Axelson not just from h2h 14-1, also from dominant form where momota win 11 titles, while axelson's dominant was no where near, even in the absence of better player momota and few other top player. achievements wise, sure axelson is next to lin dan, but competing for Goat are lin dan, lcw, momota. why? they destroy anyone include second or 3 seed like play vs highschool kids. so offen score are single digits. Axelson is great, but he is in same braket as chen long, taufik,
Do you think we should consider/credit Victor for his achievements being possible without having sparring partners/players to the depth and quality that Chinese National Team have in the spirit of the GOAT conversation?
Viktor should never be considered in the GOAT debate. He has to thank a certain driver for his 2 gold medals. He was the 2nd best in his era and only won the majors because the best got into a car accident. If their h2h was 9-10 it would still be ok. But 14-3 is unacceptable.
Even his 2 victory against KM was after his accident. His skill & confidence has deteoriate tremendously. His eyesight couldn't recover to whr it once was, thus affecting other aspect of his game.
Great videos and very fair discussion. Considering there are 5 disciplines in Badminton, Will it be fair to discuss the GOAT in any other disciplines? Because each 5 disciplines are different to one another.
As soon as I saw thumbnail I type KENTO MOMOTA 😢, If car crash didn't happened he's definitely equal to LD,LCW,,,,,.. BEFORE YOU DISLIKE MY COMMENT LETS LOOK AT FACTS Lin Dan was in international badminton tournaments in his 17yrs of age ,,, his 2001 videos are also there on youtube,,,, It took him to turn 20yrs in 2004 to get first title beating peter gade..... Then when he turned 24 in 2008 including olympic gold ,,,, he got 21 badminton titles till his this prime time..... LCW also took time from 2000 to 2003 to win first Malaysia open and till 24 he accumulated 11 titles in total... BUT OUR MOMOTA ENTERED IN 2014 AND 2015 SEASONS SECURING MEDALS IN HIS 20YRS OF AGE AS SOON AS HE ENTERED PLUS GOT BANNED FOR 1.9YRS AND TILL 24 HIS PRIME IN 2019 PLUS HIS LAST MALAYSIA MASTERS TITLE HE ACCUMULATED TOTAL OF 31 TITLES 😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮,,,,,,, THE GOAT OG 🎉 ONLY IF THAT KUALA LUMPUR CAR CRASH DIDNT HAPPENED TO KENTO MOMOTA 😢😢😢 We might had INFINITELY INSANELY INVINCIBLE LEGEND EVER❤.... Since his Consistency led him to win without getting streaks lost,,, Means if he finds breakdown of any player he just won't have let won that player next time including axelsen ever against him,,, the reason why he got world record in 2019 and would even arguably won LD + LCW and even more till today if that accident didn't happened .... since I 2019 he just added the attacking dominance flavour in his game style , which would have definitely refined and also there's nobody accept LAKSHYA SEN , GINTING who might over him till today😢
@@LouiseAndersen1991 it's heart breaking but true, delving into hypotheticals isn't good for us. But we can surely say with confidence that Kento Momota had one of the greatest potentials in surpassing Lin Dan.
@@typingthis30 yes. On that I agree with you on. I also think Momota deserves to be in the top 10 of players of all time. I am in no way shape or form negleting anything he has ever accomplished. But the fact of the matter is he gambled and was found out and was left out of the national training center for a year (partly his fault). Then he gets into a car accident (not his fault at all) which ends up ruining his career. So Momota is one of the all time greats. But he will never be the GOAT
all i can say is lindan's "inhumane" performance was the 2008 olympic final. its hard to see if viktor can do an "inhumane" performance bcs he barely have a rival in his time. obviously cant say it was momota.
Remember those days when Kento Momota (before his accident) in Malaysia, used to humiliate Viktor axelsen - Viktor used to run in court like a crying baby😂😂
Awesome video!! Loved every second, the attention to detail you went into was incredible! I think it’d be impossible for VA to become the goat, even with a 3rd Olympic gold 😬 - keep up the good work mate!! 🙌🏻
Thank you man, appreciate it. Yeah I think for me I am team LD but that's because as I started to take badminton more seriously he was emerging...20 years ago now haha
@@sujaynis3905 You’re right. That’s because Momota played against Axelsen before his prime which enabled him to rack wins with limited effort. That would not be the case today
No never, lin dan LCW Chen long momota axelsen hidayat, thats the rank for all time.. You cant consider someone as GOAT just because he won 2 gold medals with way less competitiveness!
Chen long and momota can be interchangeable as players (not on achievements) rest all is 🤙🏻 The most shocking thing is momota has more titles than chen long despite playing lesser years
Put aside team competition lets compare individual titles, Lin Dan still ahead of Axelsen by 3 more world championship, 4 more All Englands and extra 20 more individual titles. Axelsen could be GOAT if he wins another gold in olympic add up to 3 gold 1 bronze.
@@BenBeckmanBadminton i don't think 1 extra olympic beat 3 WC. secondly most of his win are from absence of his rival which clearly was 1 level ahead. dont think axelson can win 2016 olympic bronze , 2020gold Olympic and 2017 WC.
My personal opinion is BOTH LinDan and LeeChongWei as the shared GOAT of badminton. nothing against axelsen, he is my favourite active MS player. but the gap between them is too huge
Lin dan played and dominated better players is the only thing thats keeps viktor nunber 2-4 ever The level players during dan era were alll extremely good . But victor not as extreme .
About VA wining more 1000s in the future ; I hope for he'll proveme wrong, but I don"t think he will win "many more", maybe few more only, why ? How many 1000s finals did he do this year ? Maybe he was injured, his flight was late, or whatsoever. Still, in my opinion it's not a good sign for the future. 16:20 Weak era because of lesser consistency ? I kinda agree but I have two things to say about this. First, there are really too many tournaments at the moment (as you mention after) and BWF rules force players to be there, sometimes even if they are sick ; look VA's short about this or his twitch replay from end of septembre ; I asked him and he answered honestly : tournaments are full, but players are tired and sometimes only show up to avoid being fined. [EDIT] : seems we agree about this little after in the video 🥰 Second : in 10 years badmiton has changed alot, game is not the same. Look in legendary final LD vs LCW, ingame smash speed is 100 km/h under compared to now. Does that mean LD or LCW wouldn't be as good today ? Surely not, but who could know ? Nowadays, it seems players who succeed a week, can't perform as well the week after. Even for top players (maybe some exception with CTC who seems incredibly resiliant) It is because today's players are not as good ? I'm really not sure about that.
I think he can win a fair few more, if he can manage his calendar, body, etc. Will be tough but he's capable. Yeah, the world tour is crazy busy with a brutal schedule. I talked about this in my last Beckman's Breakdown, things need to change. As far as smash speed, I feel that has something to do with how the speeds are tested. I've seen all these players live and the players back then hit just as hard as players now. In regards to players better now or then, I made my thoughts now. I think most of the top guys now would do equally as well then as they do now. There are many factors that could explain the lower consistency, some you've already mentioned
If Axelsen can continue to dominate at his current performance for 4 more years then he edges it for me. Keep in mind he's currently so dominant the only tournaments that are an actual contest are those he doesn't play in, once you see him in the bracket the tournament becomes about who reaches the final against him. Still, it's a long way to go until 2028 and it's not going to be easy to keep it up.
Brother thats the argument we make if its just you , how can you be projected as a GOAT Even if he wins another gold he will never convince me , because even today I can make you watch videos of LCW and LD that'll make you wonder how these beasts played , how fast , what athleticism they posessed (even for that matter chen long and momota )and whenever I see axelsen playing it's always the same gameplay because he got his basics set , but today's gen is not disciplined / dedicated enough to even get their basics set and to improve , whether it be technique , mentality
Before the Paris Olympic VA lost to SYQ, Ginting, CTC and Prannoy. So it's a fallacy that once Viktor participate, he wins. The stats doesn't show that.
@@phillipjrgensen1024 but the point is VA still lost in tournament he participate. Compare to 2009-2012, only LCW can beat LD. Yet a 36yr old LCW defeated a 24 yr old VA in 2018.
Kento Momota: 4-1: Lin Dan 2-2: LCW 5-5: Chen Long 14-3: Viktor Axelsen Kento Momota is undoubtedly the goat, even after his career was blighted by misfortune one after another. He’s achieved more than these other players in the short time he had with his prime.
I think the concept of a GOAT includes some aspect of longevity. That’s why when we talk about GOATs, we talk about career stats that take time to build (see this video). Otherwise we would be calling Derrick Rose the GOAT in basketball, which no one would seriously do. I‘d file Momota and D-Rose under the „players with the most potential“.
VA is not just being humble, he is stating the truth in his and others' eyes. Lin Dan is the 🐐 without doubt, at the moment. Until VA has accumulated the same level of success, there's no point speculating about hypothetical scenarios, even if interesting.
Axelsen 6 - 3 Lin Dan. Axelsen 21-4, 21-7 vs. Momota, sending him to retirement home. Axelsen is the 2nd greatest badminton player of all time, and there is nothing you can do about it
imo the fact that viktor’s steep smashes and reach just come from the fact that he’s tall and not that he has exceptional skill and technique is a major detractor
@@dennismikkelsen1977 well because he is so tall and long reach, he only need to move half as much. overall, tall guys benefits more, thats why now aday, most of top 10 are almost near 190cm tall shi 1.85, antonson, 1.88. axelson 1.95cm. lee zii jai 1.86. Chou Tien-chen 1.80. Li Shifeng1.85 Jonatan Christie 1.80
Cant really go off the head to heads because sure there were a bunch of players who pooped on Viktor back then, he got a lot better and currently there isnt anyone who consistently beats him -- id say in their primes, viktor would win
I still am firm on the opinion that the skill level of todays players are higher than the average skill level of past eras. However Lin dan is still the goat. Only way axelsen can even content that is another Olympics gold. You cant argue the weight of 3 golds and a bronze.
Why are you liking this? You need to win the matches ahead of you. Momota choked when the Olympics were on his soil. He had a pis easy group.. He choked, just like every other japan players did for some reason. Funny about Axelsen, he defeated LCW and Lin Dan in pretty much all in finals..
@@Hammerhook12 I'm the one who like this comment. And I agreed with his comment. It's the hard truth that VA dominate current era due to external circumstances which favor him, thus an easy route or much lesser challenge. Some of us suspect that the car accident was orchestrated by Danish government.
@@randomchannel1004 That just goes to show how awfully you're coping by being utter delusional. Besides that, you're clearly watching Axelsen with contempt, if you're even watching, and that blinds you to see how much different and better player he is post 2020, especially compare to the 2 years prior (after his ankle surgery). An objective measurement was his wr where he dropped to no 6-7 in 2019, another one is how he used to struggle against Ginting (and players like him), where Ginting used to have the slight upper-hand. After Axelsen surgery (head-band Axelsen) their H2H have been something like 12-1. Even LCW commented in 2022 that Axelsen was different than what he used to play, explaining that there used to be a place to go with Axelsen to beat him, but there isn't anymore. You're denying yourself of greatness with your hatred, which is a shame. Not saying he's Lin Dan GOAT status, but he's a clear no.2.
Viktor must have also realized that. It's so disappointing that he can't be the goat due to his era and 14-1 h2h with Kentomomota no matter what he later achieved in his career.
Most of those matches took long before Axelsen attained peak physical condition and was struggling with persistent injuries. If you’re going to evaluate the merits of a player, then do it based on the reach of his accolades and not a head to head record devoid of context
@@phillipjrgensen1024 I closely followed all those matches and I am aware of all or these. Everyone by now must have acknowledged Viktor's success in his badminton career but this video is talking about something different.
I really admire Viktor but one should understand that Lin and Lee brought up the level of craziness among the badminton fans and if anybody remember the finals of Lin and Lee was the peak of the badminton sport which we all have witnessed.. Rest is history💯💯💯
Not only that, Don't forget that during their era, A lot of very good players were present, it's just that they couldn't beat those 2 [3 , including ChenLong].
I haven’t finished the video but I think Axelsen’s case comes down to 3 words. Lee Chong Wei. It is rare enough for a generation to have a “GOAT” candidate, let alone 2 in Lin Dan and LCW. And Super Dan came out on top. As great as Axelsen is, he doesn’t have a long term GOAT candidate rival to elevate his status, although one could argue that’s because of Axelsen’s absolute dominance in the current era. Momota was probably going to do it but that seems to be out of the way already. It is unfortunate, but it is what it is.
I have enjoyed and celebrated all these great players, Lin Dan, Axelsen, LCW, Hidayat and Gade all displayed exceptional skill in their own eras. The only what if for me is Momota. His was a career blighted by misfortune and there is no doubt that he was a rare talent even in this class of way over-achievers. I think that seeking to isolate a GOAT is just a disservice to all these amazing players and we should celebrate them all equally as any, and all of them, have been the best in the world.
I'm very sad that you didn't even mention ChenLong....
The fact that ChenLong deserves to be labeled as a legend on proves that LinDan is more deserving to be called as the GOAT, because ChenLong and LinDan almost played in the same generation, yet, ChenLong was easily overshadowed by Lindan....
A further testament of how good LinDan really was.
@@let-them-just-let-them I didn't intend for this to be an exhaust listing or I would have needed to spend far more time on my reply. Chen Long is a great player and so is, for example, the legendary Rudy Hartono and I didn't mention him either.
At his prime or not, Lin Dan never lost to anyone for 14 straight times.
Thats not a fair comparison. It’s lacking in vital context. Axelsen was dealing with a recurring ankle injury and had yet to reach his physical peak. Judge him based on his accolades, not a misleading head to head record
So did Kento Momota
As if Lindan didnt have an injury nor he werent banned for a year lol, cope with it, Axelsen is just in a weak af Era
@@phillipjrgensen1024 why do you make it sound like he wasn't at his peak? He was world number 1 even when Momota was in his prime. Y'all make being world number 2 sound like a fucking failure.
@@sujaynis3905 Because he wasnt. The Axelsen that emerged in the aftermath of the pandemic induced lockdown was a fitter, stronger, more complete player.
Come to think about it . What KM has archive is all done within a span of 5 yrs from 2014-early 2016 and 2018-early 2020 .its amazing actually , we can only imagine how much more he can do without the suspension & car accident . Coincidently , VA won his 2016 bronze and WC17 during KM suspension and follow up by 2 Olympic gold after the 2020 car accident . In conclusion , when KM is in the badminton circuit , VA become the bridesmaid . Just like how LCW was the bridesmaid during the presence of prime LD.
Couldn’t agree more.
Momota was good in '21, nothing was wrong with him physically, but he have weak mental so he fell off a cliff when he started losing.
@@HolgerDanske874 wow you know more about Kento Momota body than the person himself . Face it Dane , it was an easy route for Viktor to win Olympic gold after his vision was ruined and other injury. It’s also unfortunate that his fragile body is unable to recover fully . 2019 is not even prime KM if he was able to develop further into his late 20’s , we’ll be looking at a much powerful Momota .
@@randomchannel1004 He said himself nothing was wrong with him physically. If that's so, then what was the problem? Axelsen had injuries his entire career. When Axelsen finally had surgery for his ankle injury he came back a monster. Post-surgery Axelsen 2-0 Momota
@@HolgerDanske874 what nonsense , non factual shit are you spewing ? Did you watch Momota Japanese interview after retirement ? He was more open about his injury and said there is nothing more the doctor can do about it . He wasn’t open about it cause he didn’t want his opponent to exploit his weakness . I rather Momota suffer a sprain ankle or a gash rather than a crack eye socket and hernia that prevent yr body from turn/twist. He just couldn’t perform after the accident . You danish are just happy that KM wasn’t there to challenge VA for those international title. What is establish as FACT, is that whenever KM is fit in the circuit ,VA is always the bridesmaid . It’s just that 2 unfortunate tragedy ruin his career . VA 2 gold medals hold not much weight as LD 2 gold medals , if you watch the opponent he face in both Olympic , he manage to avoid LZJ, post accident KM, Ginting , Christie , CTC . Compare that to the opponent LD has to face en route to Beijing 2008 gold. LD needs to take down park sung Hwan , Gade, Chen Jin and finally LCW with that superhuman performance .
I’ve always said that the Lin-Lee rivalry is one of the large reasons why Lin Dan is the GOAT. The current era would have benefited significantly if Momota was there to make this generation’s rivalry although it would’ve probably benefited Momota rather than Axelsen just like it did for Lin Dan.
Exactly
Another thing to note is that old LCW has a 10-3 head to head with Viktor Axelson.
To be honest, Lcw only beat Axelsen in world tours and WC 2014. In WC 2014, Axelsen is still a young boy. Axelsen won Lcw in a more bigger event like World tour finals twice. So we can say lcw major competitions mentality is super weak.
@@Java597 Bro these professionals play All England, China Open, Indonesia Open more seriously than World Tour Finals. LCW has beaten Viktor in tournaments like the World Championship and Thomas Cup. And even during the end of his career he has beaten Viktor badly. Just accept the fact that Viktor couldn't keep up with the fast phased accurate players like KM and LCW.
@@MB-ov5xjThat's just like beating a little kid. Axelsen was 20 years old bruhhh the last time LCW bear Victor. I think Momota is the goat but that's another debate
@@saksham5829 He was 24 which would be a prime for any other player and Chong Wei was way past his physical prime and was 35 or 36 at that time. It's not even a comparison with these legends if one can't beat them being young.
@@MB-ov5xj ok lil bro calm just goes to show you havent seen them play in person. I think LCW is a better player than Axelsen. I saw him play more than 20 times. I have seen Axelsen play 30 plus times. But what Ive seen when Momota played. The shot quality, the precision stroke after stroke rally after rally. Easily the Goat. The closest Ive seen someone play to perfection
Well, I'm neither a fan of both, and I greatly admire Axelsen's humility.
But, I genuinely agree with Axelsen when he said "Lin Dan" is the GOAT.
Let's not forget that LinDan's era was the pinnacle of Men's Singles.
He had LeeChongWei, ChenLong and TauFik as his rivals, and yet, he was able to dominate all the major tournaments.
And Axelsen couldn't even dominate when Momota was around.
It may be true that LinDan didn't have the longevity as good as LeeChongWei's,
But in terms of the level of game they had during their peak; LinDan was undoubtedly the best.
Considering that it has already now more than 10 years,
It's also very obvious that the generation of LinDan/LCW/CL/Taufik still had a much solid game style. You can easily compare how the singles games these days,
Their foot work, their skill set are much inferior as compared to that of the era of Lindan.
Lin Dan straight up dominated from 2006 to 2014 and never had a losing record against anyone during his prime.
Viktor was inferior to Kento Momota from 2014 to early 2020. If Momota were to keep playing and let Viktor win another 12 matches, Viktor was in an inferior position to recover the losses while Lin Dan straight up dominated his opponents, including Chen Long and Lee Chong Wei.
WOW! Been busy recently and this is my first video in a while! Happy to see that your videos are as good as I remember them. I'm really happy to see that you are considering both objective and subjective arguments. As a Momota fan, I'm also really happy you mentioned him. But for me, at least now, I cannot see Viktor overcoming Lin Dan... I do hope to see the start of this new era, but I don't think deep within I will ever be able to accept that he is better. And this is completely subjective, it's mainly because of Momota's absence. Thanks again for a great video Ben! Keep it up!
🙂👍🏻🙌🏻
Oh my. What an amazing video. You put in fair analysis, taking into account each players' respective era and the level of competition from different perspectives as well. I also like how you incorporate Kento Momota's H2H. He was certainly the contender to be the GOAT back then, if not for the accident. Well done man.
Thank you, glad you liked the video 😊
Chen Long is a great metric when comparing the generations of Viktor vs Lin Dan / LCW. Chen Long's career was right in the middle of these two generations, and seeing how he matched brings insights. Chen Long has a near even record against prime / "losing their prime" LD & LCW. Chen Long has a 14-6 record against a "ramping up to his prime" / prime Viktor Axelsen. The older generation was clearly a tougher match for Chen Long, which further supports the goat debate leaning towards Lin Dan, and the toughness of his era.
If you want to look at Prime Axelsen, look at their Olympic final. Axelsen wiped the floor with Chen Long.
@@HolgerDanske874 Agreed, Viktor Axelsen was clearly the better player there. That being said, 2021 Chen Long was definitely past his prime. Not taking anything away from this win by Viktor, just stating that CL faced tough challenges from both prime Lin Dan / LCW and prime Viktor, and he seemed to struggled more against the former generation.
@@HolgerDanske874 do you know chen long had really bad blisters on his feet after round of 16 which prevented him from moving correctly if you look closely you would see the guy was jumping with 1 leg near the net all the time but being a humble man he never said that to press you can look up the photos of it
It's probably unfair to compare different eras but i honestly think that Viktor wouldn't have achieved what he did (even at his peak) if he was playing during the same era/period as prime Lin Dan and prime LCW. Prime Viktor in the last few years has had very few rivals at the top due to his rivals' inconsistencies (not due to lack of quality).
Also...it is worth noting that in recent years, traditional powerhouses like Malaysia and Indonesia have not produced the same level/quality of men's singles players as compared to during Lin Dan's time. This has helped Viktor's cause massively.
@@ReiAryanami My point exactly.
@@ReiAryanami of course no. Viktor is better than Tago
@@ReiAryanami And i feel Lin Dan is extremely explosive only in 2008 Olympics. Other matches he is still ok.
@@Java597 Uhhh no? Have you seen his matches in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010?
Lin Dan, LCW etc. were lucky they didn't face prime Axelsen. In his young days, he had obvious weaknesses in lack of stamina and foot work. He had to work hard to fix that and since then he became a monster. He beat Lin Dan when he was far from his prime.
Kento Momota was suppose to be the nemesis and rival of Viktor Axelsen right after LCW retired in 2019. As km and va are both the same age but km younger by few months . Unfortunately the accident in Jan 2020 crack his eye socket , as a consequence destroyed his game perception , his confidence , his reaction time and vision ; while Covid took away his stamina . VA dominating current era is like LCW able to dominate his era with absence of LD.
It is closer than people like to think it is, VA still has time to prove that he is the GOAT. But damn does he have a lot more to climb, and he has no real rival to push him further like LD with LCW, not since KM’s accident.
You need a good story just as much as the accolades. It’s not just the medals, it’s how you got them and who you beat enroute. Did you overcome a freak of nature (like LCW or 2019 Momota)? Or did you overcome lesser beings? Lin Dan overcame them all. Including the greatest uncrowned king in all of badminton history.
So what to do?? We can only look forward and try to accept the current situation.
Victor beat Kunlavut in the finals. Lin dan beat prime lCW, twice. in Olympics and world Championships. None of his competitors even came close.
Yep. Kunlavut is good no doubt... but I can't imagine him being in the same league as LCW (yes, even if KV has a world champion gold medal). That said, KV is only 23. Let's give him another 5+ years.
LOL! LCW won his first tournament at age 22 ... Kunlavut is 23 now and was a junior prodigy and already a world champion. You're smoking hahaha
This topic is so subjective. One thing I personally feel is that Viktor had more weaknesses than Lin Dan as a player.
As I have said before, and some others may also have said, Viktor has lacked stamina since 2014 and even now he makes many errors due to fatigue. His lack of endurance hinders him if he gets moved around the court and it becomes a 3 game match. Lin Dan on the other hand never seemed to burn out. Dude was a machine.
Furthermore Viktor does not have the deceptive shots of Lin Dan. Lin Dan would break opponents' ankles in many matches. Viktor almost never does this because he lacks the prowess to do it consistently - believe me, if he could get free points off deceptions, he would, but his co-ordination isn't good enough like that.
Both have exceptional mental strength - unlike most players, they tend to seize the first MP they get - so it's about neck-a-neck there.
Lin Dan was more agile... so there's that.
Although Viktor's smash is steeper his swing had more telegraph and was easier to read than Lin Dan's. If you watch them, Viktor has the textbook smash form so it's telegraphed and easier to read, but Lin Dan's arm starts higher up, goes back slightly less far behind him (I think) and barely follows through. This makes his smash really hard to read.
Just my 2 cents. I hope you can see the points I'm making
@@SolomonClarkeFitness80 Every player is different bro. How can Viktor play exactly like Lin Dan ? As long as their strategy works most of the time, it is all good. Based on track record, VIktor is more comfortable playing Lin Dan.
You make a pretty good point - no 2 players are going to play the same way - however I still feel that Lin Dan was more complete as a player.
@@Java597you don't have to go too far , take momota - he's just slightly better defensively and just a little worse offensive version of Lin dan and result was seen in past years
There is no comparison, let the argument end. LD is the GOAT.
@@james77ling This is my honest opinion right now . I just wish Viktor Axelsen does not repeat Lin Dan's same mistake by cheating his wife with another woman . Lin Dan cheats his wife after his two golds and I wish Viktor Axelsen do not repeat Lin Dan's cheating wife mistake as Viktor Axelsen wins 2 golds as Lin Dan too . I'm just very afraid the 2 gold medals are a curse which will bring something very bad to the player .
@@maidinblueandwhite3443 I don't see why you have to lump someone's competitive result with their personal life.
Saying that is like saying you should not try for a whole year of domination, because you may get car accident like Momota.
@@thanhlengoc3805 But Kento Momota do not win two Olympics golds .
@@thanhlengoc3805 KM does not win two Olympics golds .
@@thanhlengoc3805 He's Malaysian. He's salty that LCW lost out on multiple WCs and OGs from Lin Dan.
A really great video including all things I'd like to talk about. I'm personally in LinDan but have to admit that Victor is truly dominant these years(only except for Shi Yuqi I guess). Let's just see.
To be considered the GOAT, it takes more than impressive statistics. Take Novak Djokovic in tennis: he may have the most records, but Roger Federer has revolutionized the sport, giving it a new aesthetic and elegance. In badminton, the question of the GOAT is even more complex, as each discipline has its own appeal and requires different skills.
Nevertheless, I dare say that Lin Dan is the GOAT in badminton. Not only has he won two Olympic gold medals, five world titles, and six All England titles, but he has left a lasting mark on the sport with his aggressive and athletic style of play. His spectacular jumps and indomitable spirit have inspired many young players and increased the popularity of badminton. Just as Federer has made tennis a global spectacle, Lin Dan has made badminton accessible to a wider audience. His legendary rivalry with Lee Chong Wei captivated audiences and made for unforgettable matches.
Of course, Viktor Axelsen also deserves the greatest recognition. He won two consecutive Olympic gold medals. He broke the Asian dominance in the men's singles and proved that European players can also compete at the top level. In addition, Axelsen promotes badminton beyond national borders with his open and cooperative manner. He trains with players from different countries and shares his knowledge on social media, making him a role model for the "new generations".
I would say: Axelsen in Prime would beat Lin Dan in Prime. Axelsen is challenging by Kento Momota's exceptional defensive strength and ability to dictate the rhythm of the game.
Although, Lin Dan remains the GOAT for me. He played at a time when the competition in men's singles was extremely strong. Lin Dan had to beat legends like Lee Chong Wei, Taufik Hidayat and Peter Gade, whereas today's generation lacks that consistency and dominance. Players today are showing their potential but cannot match the success of the previous generation. Today's badminton scene is more diverse, but also more unpredictable.
Lin Dan's achievements, his charisma and his influence on the sport of badminton
It's Lin Dan for sure. Accolades aside, Lin Dan had a winning H2H against LCW out of all peole. Case closed.
I think your contemporaries matter in a discussion like this. If we make a all time top 10 list how many will be from LDs era and how many from VA? The level of the top performers are the ones that stand in your way winning titles. Love the videos Ben 👍
Thanks. Interesting point u make
The comparison/similarity between Axelsen and Djokovic in this video is SPOT ON. Viktor can end up achieving more than Lin Dan but still won't be considered the GOAT due to the legendary rivalries of LD-LCW (and for Djokovic...the Federer-Nadal rivalry).
Also...💯 agree on Ben's point that men's singles during Lin Dan's era was stronger at the top end (i.e. Top 5 players in the world) compared to Viktor's time now. However, in terms of overall depth and quality...I would say that men's singles now is better in terms of the Top 30 players in the world. Also, it's more diverse now with strong players coming out of countries like Japan, India, Taiwan, Thailand, Hong Kong, and even France...which we didn't see during LD and LCW's time.
@@hunleyCFC Whether or not Viktor can end up achieving more than Lin Dan is a matter of time. He could be GOAT if he wins another gold in olympic.
@@dickyminer3030 Sure. It's definitely possible for Viktor to win another Olympic gold...especially without players the level of Lin Dan or LCW around to challenge him.
Also...being badminton's GOAT is not just about the Olympics. There's also the World Championships and All-England...both of which Viktor is still behind Lin Dan.
Who says that Djokovic is not considered the GOAT lol. Surfing through social media posts to see more than 80% of them stating that Djokovic is literally the GOAT based on statistics. Comparing Viktor and Nole is straight up false and irrelevant 😂.
Not to mention that Djokovic has better H2H records against Nadal and Federer makes this comparison to be utterly crap
@@minhanhle2863 So true. Djokovic is undoubtedly the GOAT. Its not even disputed anymore.
Well made video!
Thank you 😊
Great video, and I agree with the sentiment for the vast majority of your points. It will be nearly impossible for Viktor to become the GOAT given the points you have laid out, though I still see it as possible.
However, I do wonder something about this whole GOAT debate, which is: can ANYONE ever dethrone Lin Dan as the GOAT? He is held in such high regard by so many people, and it feels as though even if someone did surpass his achievements, people would still find a way to keep Lin Dan on top.
Yeah that's a tough question. Honestly, had Momota not been blighted by misfortune he had all the makings of being that guy. It's going to take someone equally special to do it now. Insanely special
Very much agreed. I wasn’t really a badminton fan in 2019 but I can imagine watching Momota in 2019 was a similar experience to Viktor in 2022. Crazy to think that he might have got even better.
There are three (3) things you do if you want to compare this era's stars vs the ones in the 80's, 90's and early 00's. One - make all the players play the old 15-point, best 2 out of 3, score points only if you serve matches! Two - give them the old rackets (25lb/11kg max tension) with old strings so they can't smash above 160mph/258kph..!! Three - no more AIR CONDITIONED ARENAS! Old days especially in Southeast Asia, it's 100°F/38°C+ temperature inside the arenas with 100% humidity!! It's especially suffocating when the audience is breathing in oxygen and expelling CO2 inside the arena and no air conditioning!! Everyone's fanning themselves because it's so damn hot! Most Europeans don't make it past the first 2 rounds. Now, you are on a level playing field with the past. More short players can play the grind it out game because you can't smash past them like you do now. Games will be longer (at least 1 hour) and they will be the norm. Much more 1.5h - 2h games. Rallies will be long and more frequent. Doubles will have 30-50 smashes per serve! Singles will have 30-40 strokes per serve! Only the truly skilled and powerful can shorten the games. Otherwise, it's gonna be a marathon! Let's see how today's players handle that!!
I believe Lin Dan can survive in this era because he played the 15-point game before in those conditions, but I don't see Axelson doing too well in this type of environment. Morten Frost did okay but never won a world championship. So much competition back then. It was a harder game...
I think the conclusion about higher win% from the older era is exactly reversed from what the conclusion should be. The modern field has a deeper field of players close to the top, so each win is hard to come by.
Its about reputation about phenomenal about influence about excitement they brought to the table about fire about style about arts of badminton about grit about mentality. Lin dan is the greatest of all time
I watched the whole video and this man did not even talk about Lee Chong Wei 11-3 Viktor Axelsen and Chen Long 15-8 Viktor Axelsen .
@@petebrumwell he literally talked about his record against Momota
Most of those matches took place before Axelsen was in his prime
@@Seija729just finished the video, deleted comment.
yeah i thought of that too i was literally waiting for it the whole time but still a good video
It’s hard to compare when the age gap is so Big. The didn’t face each other in their primes. Viktor only just turned 16 when he faced LCW.
But You can look at titles, and Lin Dan is the GOAT for sure.
Ben. I was so happy to see your video. If it's only about honor, then Lin Dan must be No. 1. But discussions are always interesting because people come to conclusions by combining their own subjective and objective views.
In fact, this discussion actually reflects two contradictions: 1. The contradiction between the past and the present. 2. The paradox of using other players to compare the assumptions of two people's peaks. The first contradiction, I think, is not suitable to be explained by "times are progressing, so it must be more difficult now than in the past", but to compare the overall performance of players in the two eras. My personal comparison is this: in 2011, Lee Chong Wei and Chen Long can have more than 80% of the annual win rate, Chen Jin and Gade can also have more than 70% of the annual win rate. In 2023, Shi Yuqi, Kunrawut and Li Zijia all have an annual win rate between 60% and 70%, and many races are very unstable. So it's hard to compare them to the players of the past. This leads to the first contradiction: "Victor's era is not as good as Lin Dan's era".
The second contradiction is actually an extension of the first. People use Lee Chong Wei, Chen Long and Momota as the middle players to complete the comparison of the two. Specifically, Lee Chong Wei in 2018 can also beat Victor, and the peak Victor is not better than Lin Dan, who can suppress the peak Lee Chong Wei.
So I mean, what seems to be a comparison between Lin Dan and Victor is actually a comparison between two eras. For the first contradiction, I personally think that the stability and competitiveness of players in Lin Dan's era are greater than those in Victor's era. For the second contradiction, I think it is necessary to choose the time when the two players' annual win rate is close, such as Lin Dan Lee Chong Wei Chen Long and Victor in 2017, such as Momota and Victor in 2020, so as to connect the two people😊
Amazing video!
Considering the competition and how they did it, and with the racket, shuttle tech now. Id go with lin dan dude was different beast
I don't think the tech has really advanced that far but I still get your point
@@BenBeckmanBadminton it has. Try using muscle power and the new astrox and see how far different rackets of today compared to the 2000s.
@DL.j early 2000s yes, 07/08 onwards I'd say the difference is the minimal. The musclepower 99 though...iconic and a beauty of a racket. The Armortec 700 is a racket I'd say could definitely hold up today
it's hard for viktor to actually surpass lcw and ld in terms of level of play
Nice video as always Ben... for me.. both are superrr.. but.. lin dan got rival.. and its make me feel, the competitions in lin dan era harder for him to win..(i feel, maybe not the fact) axelsen barely got someone who can challenge him consistently.. shi yuqi and momota should be his rival.. but both fall short.. ginting, jojo, antonsen, naraoka, Vitidsarn and lee ji jia 1 lvl below axelsen for now(IMHO). if only momota and shi yu qi can challenge victor... i think lindan vs axelsen would be really hot topic.. everytime i see axelsen in final.. its 90% of the time i feel he'll win that match.. i definitely agree with u.. if only momota didnt crash.. momota and victor rivalry may be like lindan vs lcw.. and maybe we can said axelsen goat.. :) sorry for my bad english...
Everybody in the comments saying Axelsen improved so much what is true but we cant just overlook how Momota literally just took his pocket money away. After Momota had his accident nobody could challenge Axelsen making his game look so flawless what many people would see as big improvement but in my opinion if u dont get challenged its really easy to play your game and bring out your best performance cuz if the opponent is lacking to play good quality shots its more easier for u to play your good quality shots.
How could Momota improve.? All you have see is all the the other Japanese ms Badminton players
Momota was the best of Japan style which took him to the limit.
@@Hammerhook12 Whats that kind of question just cuz your from that country means you cant improve? Sounds like „How could Lee chong wei improve he was malaysias best MS player since there is no one better then him he cannot surpass his predecessor“ huh?
@@John-jd2qm LCW had the physical tools but also the intelligence. He was also a late bloomer in relation to Lin Dan, Taufik
But LCW could smash the shuttlecock like there isn't no tomorrow.
Now..(spelling). Kenta Nishamototo, Tsuniama, Narouka
Point is.. All these Japan versions are mirrors of themselves. Momota prime was at a dead end.
Just saying at the time of Lin Dan, there were a bunch of really good player and for Viktor Axelsen right now everyone good has retired such as Lin Dan, LCW, Chen Long, and Kento Momoto.
In terms of achievements, yes, Viktor ≈ Lin Dan (LD) >> Chen Long ≈ Lee Chong Wei (LCW) ≈ Taufik Hidayat. However, in terms of dominance, the answer is no. Lin Dan, in his prime, demonstrated that he was capable of beating any top level ocmpetitors rised up who challenged him. Unfortunately, Viktor hasn't shown the ability to consistently overcome Momota, until Momota's declined due to off-court issues. In LD's era, LD follwed by LCW were clearly the best, far ahead of everyone else. In Viktor's , it's like: Viktor → Shi YQ → Momota → Viktor → ... cycle, plus player like Kunlavut, kodai, with players like LZJ and Prannoy occasionally stepping up and defeating some of the top names.
Lin Dan’s career was just too good. All respect to Axelsen but Lin Dan has better stats and achievements playing in the hardest era ever. He dominated LCW who many consider at-least a top 3 player ever.
Don't you think you might be neglecting one other factor that during Lin dan's Era, only 4-5 players were really good players and players ranked above 10 weren't as strong to compete or even if they were good, they lacked confidence. while in current era, most of the top 32 players have the potential to beat anyone on the circuit. So it's more competitive now rather than before.
Just for example, we have players from Frnace like Toma Junior Popov beating Anthony Ginting and Victor Axelson. Many players ranked outside top 32 also beat top 10 players and may be not because top players are inconsistent but because lower ranked players are also trying to play thier best.
Recent example is Lei Lan Xi, Leong Jun Hao, Chia Hao Lee etc.
Pretty sure me thinking current era having stronger depth covers this. Thanks for your comment though
did you watch badminton recently or something? lin dan had to battle through taufik, park from korea, bau chun li, poonsana, peter gade, kenichi tago, Jorgensen, chen long, chen jin and lee chong wei, li hun 2 and various other players. The only difference is these players didn't have the media or the recognition nowadays players get. Hence people think "this is era is more competitive, more challenging" etc etc which is complete bs. This era is so inconsistent you can't even predict who'll come in the finals of 3 straight super series.
@@akshatjayakar8907 Chen Long, Tago and Jorgensen 5/6 years younger than Lin Dan. Tago never got any WC or Olympic medal anyways. They reached their peak in 2014-15 when Lin Dan already past prime and was not reaching WC medal matches except last time in 2017 where Axelsen was the winner. In which case, 23 years old Axelsen already better than those 3. Not strong competition for prime Lin Dan period.
Peter Gade is 7 years older than Lin Dan yet he never won a gold in Olympics or World champs. Where was he in years before 2005? He only reached WC silver and bronze once then. By 2005, he is already 29 years old, and didn't win. He would not reach WC bronze again until 2010-11, by which time he is already 34 years old. Is it strong competition when 34-35 year old player who only reached WC semis 3 times in his career is reaching WC semis? Past prime Peter Gade is not a strong opponent for Lin Dan.
Taufik, too, didn't do much after 2004 Olympics or 2005 WC. Didn't reach another Olympics medal match. Only reached WC medal match another 2 times where he lost every medal match in straight sets against Chen Jin afterwards.
Poonsana 0 WC or Olympics medals. Highest ranking of 4 only.
Li Hyun Il no Olympics medals, one WC bronze in 2006. After that, no competition for Lin Dan. Retired after 2008 till 2010 and hardly played any matches. By 2010, already 30 years old.
@@akshatjayakar8907 are you a gambler are smt? part of the competitive world level is that it is competitive, not everyone could win everything. Is not meant to be predictable whereas who win or lost.
@@AnNguyen-ch3qi we're literally talking about who is the BEST at the game. And if you are the best, you should at least get to the finals of major superseries. China open itself is a testament to this. Japan open as well. And Beckman literally spelled it out that the previous era WAS more consistent. All todays players have one dimensional games.
I think another point that is worth mentioning is playing style. Using the tennis analogy again, a lot of people still consider Federer to be the GOAT, despite Djokovic having all the records, because his tennis had a certain style to it which was much more pleasing to the eye than Djokovic's long baseline rally style. Now I think Viktor obviously does not have a boring style, but Lin Dan's attacking, aggressive style was so exciting to watch for so many, which in turn leaves a bigger impact in people's minds.
Maybe one of the greatest badminton European player of all time. Lin Dan is just a freak of nature, one in a million talent, dude can be on hiatus for a year and still mauled top player like LCW. LCW doping issue is the reason why he shouldn’t be in the conversation.
I live in a great time to still celebrate the hardship and grind that all these top tier players have gone through for this sport. I don't see many of the next generation to pull these achievements. They come and go, and for many different reasons, new rules, new injustice, new managements, etc.. basically too many bs that keep them away from performing and upkeeping their ranking.
My opinion is that the gap between players' standards has been drastically reduced such that it is very difficult for players to dominate in the Singles game. Regularly, there are players who performs amazingly well in one tournament only to fade back into mediocrity again. Lin Dan and Chong Wei surpasses the rest of the players in the tournament by a rather large margin and Lin Dan being able to counter Chong Wei's game most of the time, it is naturally easier for him to earn his titles. World ranking becomes more important as a factor that indicates consistency then, and Axelsen surpassed Lin Dan in that aspect. Lin Dan shows up for the big games, but Chong Wei plays more tournaments and wins more often as well, and the latter's achievement as World No.1 is often underestimated imo.
Not for prime Momota as he win 90% in his prime.
@@hanguyenmanh6058 as Ben said, maybe the really top 5-8 isnt as consistent as it was. But the overall level is way tougher , before you woulndt see too often a top20-30 beat a top 10 player. Now it happens at every tournaments. Why ? Because its not same ressources, now you have youtube/videos to studies matches/training, athlete are doing way more international training instead of staying at their national training center. so at the very top its weaker/inconsistent but on the overall level it's the competition is way more tough. Whereas before it was easy match for top 10 against top 20-40.
@@hanguyenmanh6058prime Lin Dan had a 92% win rate, and that was in a span of a decade. Not just 2 years
the fact is that Lin Dan has an average of 89% win rate over 10 years (2004-2014) and Axelson only had 21-22 two years of prime. You are telling me that Axelsen surpassed Lin Dan in consistency?😂Lin Dan can even enter the final of world championship in 2017, when the first time he entered the final was in 2005.
@@Ey3shi3ldtv "The level is weaker, but competition is tougher." If Ben said this, it would've been the most stupid take of all time. The GOAT debate is about who performed on the highest level possible. "Greatest of All Time" for a reason, not "Greatest in this particular era". You should be ashamed of yourself for even typing this out.
The roster of MS single from the last few years isn't as stack as it was 15 years ago. He basically have no challenger.
Your videos are really good and high quality, congratulations on your recent work, keep going!
This video in particular is really well made, I thought that 30 minutes was too much for such a subjective topic to be discussed, I thought it was going to be just some spread out opinions but you proved me wrong, you were really able to turn this into a very entertaining and way more objective video about there careers which factored a lot of important points to consider in such discussion. I belive you deserve the title of the goat of badminton writing and teaching badminton history!
I just wanted to question you about something, I consider Lee Chong Wei to be the best badminton player. Although he hasn't won olympic gold and has lost way more matches against Lin Dan he has still some impressive achievements. The question is simple, would you consider him the best if he had topped everything you mentioned Lin Dan did (meaning he had more all england, world championships etc.) except he still had the same head to head against Lin Dan?? I think he should definitly be considered the goat in that situation because to me I feel like if Lee Chong Wei wins against everyone else except for Lind Dan and Lin Dan wins everytime against Lee Chong Wei but is inconsitent and looses to other players some times then that means Lee Chong Wei is better beacuse he is better than everyone and just can't win a specific player because of his playstyle or strategy, but still beats the others.
Anyway just some thoughts I was having, Keep up the great work!
GOAT GOAT!!!!! Another great episode!
Nah he can never be you can't be "Greatest Of All Time" when you have a record of 3-14 against one of your rivals
Of course you Can. Most of those matches took place at a time when Axelsen was injured and had yet to reach his prime
Stop fanboying him lol
@@xdcuong830 I could say the same to you
@@phillipjrgensen1024 They are in the same age bracket and coincidentally VA won bronze in 16 and WC in 17 when KM wasn't there and won 2 golds after KM's car accident when KM was there VA was always 2nd best..He could've been in conversation of GOAT even if he had an 8-9/14 record against KM but with 3/14 against an opponent which is in your same age bracket you can't be called a GOAT
@@Hazim_47 That’s not a valid argument. People peak at different ages. And two olympic gold medals far outweighs some arbitrary head to head record
good video again sir!!
Glad you liked it 😊
he already have more losses than Lin Dan. So, NO
To me, as a dane, no one will ever reach LD! Besides your objective facts, I simply liked his style! It was beautiful. VA’s style is more…..mechanic, more physical.
Lin Dan is the GOAT, case close.
Thank you Ben for another great video
I think a good idea would be have a video about the most talented players ever. I know it will be hard to compare and even create a metric for this but it will still be entertaining. My personal pick for this would be taufik hidayat. Also, I think if you want to select goats; lin dan > lee chong wei > kento momota (the injury was outside his control and here I am taking only his pre injury career into account) > VA
Great analysis, I don’t think you missed any aspect of the comparison
Thank you
that viktor vs momota thing is kinda like if monica seles vs graff if she had never been attacked
Is is important to distinguish between the GOAT and the BOAT (best of all time).
Lin Dan will always be the GOAT. Others may be heralded as the BOAT but no one will ever surpass LD as the GOAT.
I personally make the distinction based upon distinction feel and the weight behind a career and accomplishments.
Can u explain difference as both have "of all time". A better difference would be GOAT and BOTT (best of their time)
@@BenBeckmanBadminton
Best is more about their actual level compared to the competition and how many times they won.
Greatest is more to do with the weight of their accomplishments and the combination between logical and emotional evaluation.
VA has won back to back golds at the Olympics but they didn't feel like they carried the same weight as when LD won his gold. It felt like LD had to overcome more thrilling moments and participated in more 'iconic' matches than VA.
Iconic is another adjective used that lies closer to greater than better as there are intangible factors that contribute to naming it as such.
@Arucan I get you but I'm not sure I'd agree on the wording. But regardless, the points you make are interesting and I completely get.
@@BenBeckmanBadmintonfor example, any top 50 current 100m sprinters in the world are literally "better" than a lot of world/olympic champions in the past. And it's a fact, because u can just compare their times. But are they "greater" than those past champions? Absolutely not, hopefully that explains it better
there was a point where Lindan doesn't have any equal opponent anymore and probably got bored and started diving the shuttle most of the time to entertain himself. My problem with axelsen is he is kinda a dirty player and shuts up on obvious wrong calls.
the current era defo has much better depth in MS, but the top order quality was much higher in Lin Dan's era which makes it a 'harder' era imo. His H2H with Momota does not help him at all like you said. Also we have to assume that Viktor goes 3/3 in the next 3 WC's to match the 5 titles from Lin Dan which is not easy.
I guess also the longevity (and consistency) of LD also surely plays a part in it.
A good point, what I was trying to angle at more was that the factor of Viktor had it much easier or his era is much weaker isn't as strong an argument as people think.
yea i got you!
also if you think about it in another way, shouldn't Viktor be winning more continental titles since its 'easier'
also i do think Viktor would be right up there with LD, LCW, CL etc but yea its a fun comparison
@@bharathv03 I think by time he ends his career he will do (continental champs that is)
If we look into context of LD and VA first olympic Gold medal:
Lin Dan had to face Park Sung Hwan who was a dark horse during that time , as he is capable of giving a hard time against the best player. Follow by European best at that time Peter Gade in the QF, follow by his compatriot Chen Jin in the SF who also wanted the gold for his country and one of the best in 2008 , and finally a superhuman performance against his Arch-Rival LCW.
In comparison, Viktor Axelsen face Wang tzu-wei from Taiwan, who wasn't a contender that time in R16, follow by SYQ in QF who is China 2nd seed at that time and also a challenge but only beat Viktor once at that time , in the SF he got to face a Guatemalan player (KC), which all due respect without taking away his credit, was an anomaly to reach the SF ; and finally Chen Long in the final. If you look at CL route to the Tokyo final , he has eliminated LZJ, CTC and Ginting who were all top 10 seeded . Because of these tough matches . he had a huge blister on his toe that hinder his footwork. It's already a bless that Momota was not at peak condition in 2021 but It's another miracle for Viktor that he manage to avoid those players CL has face in Tokyo 2021.
As for 2024 Paris Olympic , it's up to you to analyze. But in the 2024 Olympic , his biggest threat was SYQ , LZJ and maybe Christie. All of them also he avoided enroute to gold, but need to take into consideration that SYQ and Christie choke in the Paris Olympic, that's why they never get to face Viktor.
Viktor has damn good luck man. The gold at Tokyo for Viktor would be utterly impossible if momota was at his peak, why? Momota and Viktor would face off in the semifinals. He wouldn't even had gotten a chance at silver. If that accident never happened, this whole conversation about Viktor being a GOAT would never have taken place. Forget winning Paris gold, he'd have never won gold at Tokyo.
I agree with much of what you say except for his biggest threat. To be honest, SYQ, LZJ and Christie would've stood no chance against Axelsen. This is the cold hard truth. As a massive SYQ fan, his performance during the Olympics would've seen him get smashed and done in by Axelsen, same with Christie, same old disappointing performance. LZJ is the only case where you can say he would be deemed a threat to Axelsen.
Yes, absolutely yes
Something highlighted by one of your points and often forgotten in the debate is the origin. Had Carolina Marin been Chinese, her achievements wouldn't seem as impressive, right ? Coming from Europe is a disadvantage. You don't get to train with the best or with nearly as many infrastructures. I'm aware Denmark is big on badminton but let's be serious here. Do you think they have even half as much as China ? To me, achieving high results as a European is already amazing. Just look at the best players of all time and count how many aren't Asian
I must add that, to me, as a European, Viktor is much closer to my heart than Lin Dan. Most badminton fans are also in Asia which plays a role, impact wise.
I started truly following badminton in 2016 and grew up with VA. Perhaps more than his game itself, it's his class that always set him apart for me. Look it up, there are so any examples of Viktor being absolute class in attitude, in and out of the court. His will to always grow closer to his fans, give them more advice and insight, all of this has left a deep mark in me. That and his professionalism that can't be topped at the moment. Yes, Lin Dan's mark is his style and I feel like he filled the shoes for that kind of mark. But to me, Viktor left a mark, a new height in attitude and what we want to see on court.
Viktor is my childhood hero and my own personal GOAT
"yes, absolutely yes"
"I started truly following badminton in 2016"
No shit
@@FACTSONLY186 Well, hello stranger. As you're aware, youtube exists and I have foundly followed Superdan and Datuk Lee Chong Wei's carreer. Now, if being young is a crime, that is one I didn't know. At the end of the day, the GOAT status is a personal opinion. Mine is that Viktor can sit at this table. But you are more than free to think otherwise
That being said, I hope you are enjoying the current World mixed team championships. I also hope that whatever anger that led you to leave this comment goes away, anger is never among the nice feelings to have. Have a wonderful day !
your way of comparing era's by looking at consistency really doesnt tell anything, if the general level was lower in the current days but the gaps between player levels is bigger then it will show more consistency, because back in the day the gaps between the top players could be lower it looks like less consistency. besides that, consistency is only a really small part of determining the overall strength of a player. you could factor in things like how much trouble axelsen had with Lin Dan, LCW and Chen Long (and later on with momota), even when all 3 were already over the hill and way past their prime. also Axelsen has been quite lucky that Momota got in that accident, because without that i doubt he would have won gold in Tokio.
for me, like many others, its very clear that the overall level is way lower then back in the day with players like LCW, Chen Long and Hidayat (and many can be added to that that are stronger then nowadays competition. Therefor i think it is impossible for Axelsen to ever be the GOAT.
Axselson will never be Goat. why? he was never the best in his own era. simple as that.
most of his achievements are benefits from the absent of greater player. such as Olympic 2016 bronze, 2017 WC gold, 2020 Olympic gold. during this time, i mean clearly momota>Axelson not just from h2h 14-1, also from dominant form where momota win 11 titles,
while axelson's dominant was no where near, even in the absence of better player momota and few other top player.
achievements wise, sure axelson is next to lin dan,
but competing for Goat are lin dan, lcw, momota. why? they destroy anyone include second or 3 seed like play vs highschool kids. so offen score are single digits.
Axelson is great, but he is in same braket as chen long, taufik,
Do you think we should consider/credit Victor for his achievements being possible without having sparring partners/players to the depth and quality that Chinese National Team have in the spirit of the GOAT conversation?
That's not a bad angle to look into. It certainly is used when describing how impressive Marin's achievements are
Viktor should never be considered in the GOAT debate. He has to thank a certain driver for his 2 gold medals. He was the 2nd best in his era and only won the majors because the best got into a car accident. If their h2h was 9-10 it would still be ok. But 14-3 is unacceptable.
Even his 2 victory against KM was after his accident. His skill & confidence has deteoriate tremendously. His eyesight couldn't recover to whr it once was, thus affecting other aspect of his game.
Who is Victor's Lee Chow Wei now? Shi Yu Qi, with significant injuries. Lee Zii Jia, extremely unstable. And who?
Victor is the Lee Chong Wei for this era. Momota was supposed to be the Lin Dan.
Great videos and very fair discussion.
Considering there are 5 disciplines in Badminton, Will it be fair to discuss the GOAT in any other disciplines? Because each 5 disciplines are different to one another.
Yeah, agree. Maybe I'll do a list for GOAT potentials in all disciplines
❤❤❤vego can easily go for LA28 🙏✅💯🙈🙊🙉🤷♀️😼
As soon as I saw thumbnail I type KENTO MOMOTA 😢,
If car crash didn't happened he's definitely equal to LD,LCW,,,,,..
BEFORE YOU DISLIKE MY COMMENT LETS LOOK AT FACTS
Lin Dan was in international badminton tournaments in his 17yrs of age ,,, his 2001 videos are also there on youtube,,,, It took him to turn 20yrs in 2004 to get first title beating peter gade..... Then when he turned 24 in 2008 including olympic gold ,,,, he got 21 badminton titles till his this prime time.....
LCW also took time from 2000 to 2003 to win first Malaysia open and till 24 he accumulated 11 titles in total...
BUT OUR MOMOTA ENTERED IN 2014 AND 2015 SEASONS SECURING MEDALS IN HIS 20YRS OF AGE AS SOON AS HE ENTERED PLUS GOT BANNED FOR 1.9YRS AND TILL 24 HIS PRIME IN 2019 PLUS HIS LAST MALAYSIA MASTERS TITLE HE ACCUMULATED TOTAL OF 31 TITLES 😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮,,,,,,, THE GOAT OG 🎉
ONLY IF THAT KUALA LUMPUR CAR CRASH DIDNT HAPPENED TO KENTO MOMOTA 😢😢😢
We might had INFINITELY INSANELY INVINCIBLE LEGEND EVER❤....
Since his Consistency led him to win without getting streaks lost,,,
Means if he finds breakdown of any player he just won't have let won that player next time including axelsen ever against him,,, the reason why he got world record in 2019 and would even arguably won LD + LCW and even more till today if that accident didn't happened .... since I 2019 he just added the attacking dominance flavour in his game style , which would have definitely refined and also there's nobody accept LAKSHYA SEN , GINTING who might over him till today😢
But a car crash DID happen. It did end up ruining his carreer. So no. Momota can never really be consindered the GOAT
@@LouiseAndersen1991 it's heart breaking but true, delving into hypotheticals isn't good for us. But we can surely say with confidence that Kento Momota had one of the greatest potentials in surpassing Lin Dan.
@@typingthis30 yes. On that I agree with you on. I also think Momota deserves to be in the top 10 of players of all time. I am in no way shape or form negleting anything he has ever accomplished.
But the fact of the matter is he gambled and was found out and was left out of the national training center for a year (partly his fault). Then he gets into a car accident (not his fault at all) which ends up ruining his career.
So Momota is one of the all time greats. But he will never be the GOAT
@@LouiseAndersen1991 you are absolutely right. He is recognised as one of the greats, but not one of the greatest of all time. You are 100% correct.
Lmfao, Lin Dan first title was in 2004? What a bunch of BS, he was already world #2 in 2002
Lanier might throw a spanner in the works . He is superb
He's a talent for sure
all i can say is lindan's "inhumane" performance was the 2008 olympic final. its hard to see if viktor can do an "inhumane" performance bcs he barely have a rival in his time. obviously cant say it was momota.
Remember those days when Kento Momota (before his accident) in Malaysia, used to humiliate Viktor axelsen - Viktor used to run in court like a crying baby😂😂
You remember seeing Axelsen win 2x Olympic Gold medals in a row after humiliating Momota 21-4, 21-7 sending the japanese in a retirement home? 😂
@@HolgerDanske874 naah man. Kento had an injury in Malaysia after car accident, broken jaw and broken ankle wont leave much.
Awesome video!! Loved every second, the attention to detail you went into was incredible! I think it’d be impossible for VA to become the goat, even with a 3rd Olympic gold 😬 - keep up the good work mate!! 🙌🏻
Thank you man, appreciate it. Yeah I think for me I am team LD but that's because as I started to take badminton more seriously he was emerging...20 years ago now haha
I still feel like if Kento didn’t face with car accident ,he might be the new Goat of badmiton.By looking to 2018,2019 .
Let's just agree on this, nobody will ever be able to defeat Viktor like Momota did.
@@sujaynis3905 You’re right. That’s because Momota played against Axelsen before his prime which enabled him to rack wins with limited effort. That would not be the case today
@@phillipjrgensen1024and Viktor reached his prime after Kento had the accident. Hmm.
Well yeah cuz noone other than momota can consistently defeat Viktor after LD and LCW retired@@KeithHiew
I agree it would be regularly closer but I'd still have Momota coming out on top the vast majority of the time
Hopefully next video of you is who is the GOST of women single player ❤
That's a far more open question. Very difficult
No never, lin dan LCW Chen long momota axelsen hidayat, thats the rank for all time.. You cant consider someone as GOAT just because he won 2 gold medals with way less competitiveness!
Chen long and momota can be interchangeable as players (not on achievements) rest all is 🤙🏻
The most shocking thing is momota has more titles than chen long despite playing lesser years
If he wins one more gold and 2 more world championship i think he will become the goat
Put aside team competition lets compare individual titles, Lin Dan still ahead of Axelsen by 3 more world championship, 4 more All Englands and extra 20 more individual titles. Axelsen could be GOAT if he wins another gold in olympic add up to 3 gold 1 bronze.
Yes, agree, hence the use of my grand hypothetical. Not an impossible one but very difficult
@@BenBeckmanBadminton i don't think 1 extra olympic beat 3 WC. secondly most of his win are from absence of his rival which clearly was 1 level ahead. dont think axelson can win 2016 olympic bronze , 2020gold Olympic and 2017 WC.
In my heart, it’s always been LCW
Viktor is the runner's up GOAT
IF viktor is still at peak by 2028
My personal opinion is BOTH LinDan and LeeChongWei as the shared GOAT of badminton. nothing against axelsen, he is my favourite active MS player. but the gap between them is too huge
Lin Dan is the Pele of Badminton and Lee Chong Wei is the Messi of Badminton.
Lin dan played and dominated better players is the only thing thats keeps viktor nunber 2-4 ever The level players during dan era were alll extremely good . But victor not as extreme .
Axelsen said Lin Dan is the greatest. That's all that needs to be said.
About VA wining more 1000s in the future ; I hope for he'll proveme wrong, but I don"t think he will win "many more", maybe few more only, why ?
How many 1000s finals did he do this year ?
Maybe he was injured, his flight was late, or whatsoever. Still, in my opinion it's not a good sign for the future.
16:20 Weak era because of lesser consistency ?
I kinda agree but I have two things to say about this.
First, there are really too many tournaments at the moment (as you mention after) and BWF rules force players to be there, sometimes even if they are sick ;
look VA's short about this or his twitch replay from end of septembre ; I asked him and he answered honestly : tournaments are full, but players are tired and sometimes only show up to avoid being fined.
[EDIT] : seems we agree about this little after in the video 🥰
Second : in 10 years badmiton has changed alot, game is not the same. Look in legendary final LD vs LCW, ingame smash speed is 100 km/h under compared to now. Does that mean LD or LCW wouldn't be as good today ? Surely not, but who could know ?
Nowadays, it seems players who succeed a week, can't perform as well the week after. Even for top players (maybe some exception with CTC who seems incredibly resiliant)
It is because today's players are not as good ? I'm really not sure about that.
I think he can win a fair few more, if he can manage his calendar, body, etc. Will be tough but he's capable.
Yeah, the world tour is crazy busy with a brutal schedule. I talked about this in my last Beckman's Breakdown, things need to change.
As far as smash speed, I feel that has something to do with how the speeds are tested. I've seen all these players live and the players back then hit just as hard as players now.
In regards to players better now or then, I made my thoughts now. I think most of the top guys now would do equally as well then as they do now. There are many factors that could explain the lower consistency, some you've already mentioned
Only the real ones know. Prime Momota is the GOAT and there isn't a single argument against that.
"the real ones know"
Lmfao
How many Lin Dan's matches have u watched kiddo?
If Axelsen can continue to dominate at his current performance for 4 more years then he edges it for me. Keep in mind he's currently so dominant the only tournaments that are an actual contest are those he doesn't play in, once you see him in the bracket the tournament becomes about who reaches the final against him.
Still, it's a long way to go until 2028 and it's not going to be easy to keep it up.
Brother thats the argument we make if its just you , how can you be projected as a GOAT
Even if he wins another gold he will never convince me , because even today I can make you watch videos of LCW and LD that'll make you wonder how these beasts played , how fast , what athleticism they posessed (even for that matter chen long and momota )and whenever I see axelsen playing it's always the same gameplay because he got his basics set , but today's gen is not disciplined / dedicated enough to even get their basics set and to improve , whether it be technique , mentality
Before the Paris Olympic VA lost to SYQ, Ginting, CTC and Prannoy. So it's a fallacy that once Viktor participate, he wins. The stats doesn't show that.
@@randomchannel1004None of those players can beat him consistently
@@phillipjrgensen1024 but the point is VA still lost in tournament he participate. Compare to 2009-2012, only LCW can beat LD. Yet a 36yr old LCW defeated a 24 yr old VA in 2018.
@@randomchannel1004 So what? Prime Lin Dan lost tournaments too
Kento Momota:
4-1: Lin Dan
2-2: LCW
5-5: Chen Long
14-3: Viktor Axelsen
Kento Momota is undoubtedly the goat, even after his career was blighted by misfortune one after another. He’s achieved more than these other players in the short time he had with his prime.
I think the concept of a GOAT includes some aspect of longevity. That’s why when we talk about GOATs, we talk about career stats that take time to build (see this video). Otherwise we would be calling Derrick Rose the GOAT in basketball, which no one would seriously do.
I‘d file Momota and D-Rose under the „players with the most potential“.
@@i2Sekc4U you can't be considered the GOAT just by having 2 great years.
@@i2Sekc4U Not even close
"He's achieved more than thesr other players in the short time.."
Idk if you're just dumb or actually retarded
Lin dan competed with lee chong wei, taufik, Peter grade all these great players who are legends
VA is not just being humble, he is stating the truth in his and others' eyes. Lin Dan is the 🐐 without doubt, at the moment. Until VA has accumulated the same level of success, there's no point speculating about hypothetical scenarios, even if interesting.
It is an interesting question to ask, hence why I asked it 😅
Which is the very reason why he's speculating in the first place. If he's achieved it, there would be no need to speculate anymore.
🎉
Kento Momota 14:1 vs Axelsen ....Axelsen is currently ranked 21st by the BWF - he will never be classed as the _Goat_ .
Axelsen 6 - 3 Lin Dan. Axelsen 21-4, 21-7 vs. Momota, sending him to retirement home. Axelsen is the 2nd greatest badminton player of all time, and there is nothing you can do about it
@@HolgerDanske874 ....Lin Dan was well passed his best by the time Axelsen played him.....the 2008-2012 Lin Dan would of destroyed Axelsen.
@@blaze1148 And Axelsen reached his best In 2021. Young Axelsen could beat Lin Dan, so imagine what prime Axelsen would do. 21-4, 21-7 against Momota
@@HolgerDanske874 Stop sucking Axelsens balls.....he is ranked 21st now.....his reign at the top was lucky because of Momotas injury and Lin Dans age.
imo the fact that viktor’s steep smashes and reach just come from the fact that he’s tall and not that he has exceptional skill and technique is a major detractor
Well you could say that he cant move like Lin Dan and the others because off his hight so that makes it even.
@@dennismikkelsen1977 well because he is so tall and long reach, he only need to move half as much. overall, tall guys benefits more, thats why now aday, most of top 10 are almost near 190cm tall
shi 1.85,
antonson, 1.88.
axelson 1.95cm.
lee zii jai 1.86.
Chou Tien-chen 1.80.
Li Shifeng1.85
Jonatan Christie 1.80
Cant really go off the head to heads because sure there were a bunch of players who pooped on Viktor back then, he got a lot better and currently there isnt anyone who consistently beats him -- id say in their primes, viktor would win
Momota is the best in alltime his defence is very beautiful and clear ❤.
I still am firm on the opinion that the skill level of todays players are higher than the average skill level of past eras. However Lin dan is still the goat. Only way axelsen can even content that is another Olympics gold. You cant argue the weight of 3 golds and a bronze.
I think Axelsen is what Lee Chong Wei would be if Lin Dan got banned for being at an illegal gambling site and then had a car accident.
Why are you liking this? You need to win the matches ahead of you. Momota choked when the Olympics were on his soil. He had a pis easy group.. He choked, just like every other japan players did for some reason.
Funny about Axelsen, he defeated LCW and Lin Dan in pretty much all in finals..
@@Hammerhook12 I'm the one who like this comment. And I agreed with his comment. It's the hard truth that VA dominate current era due to external circumstances which favor him, thus an easy route or much lesser challenge. Some of us suspect that the car accident was orchestrated by Danish government.
@@randomchannel1004 That just goes to show how awfully you're coping by being utter delusional. Besides that, you're clearly watching Axelsen with contempt, if you're even watching, and that blinds you to see how much different and better player he is post 2020, especially compare to the 2 years prior (after his ankle surgery). An objective measurement was his wr where he dropped to no 6-7 in 2019, another one is how he used to struggle against Ginting (and players like him), where Ginting used to have the slight upper-hand. After Axelsen surgery (head-band Axelsen) their H2H have been something like 12-1.
Even LCW commented in 2022 that Axelsen was different than what he used to play, explaining that there used to be a place to go with Axelsen to beat him, but there isn't anymore.
You're denying yourself of greatness with your hatred, which is a shame. Not saying he's Lin Dan GOAT status, but he's a clear no.2.
Viktor must have also realized that. It's so disappointing that he can't be the goat due to his era and 14-1 h2h with Kentomomota no matter what he later achieved in his career.
Most of those matches took long before Axelsen attained peak physical condition and was struggling with persistent injuries. If you’re going to evaluate the merits of a player, then do it based on the reach of his accolades and not a head to head record devoid of context
@@phillipjrgensen1024 I closely followed all those matches and I am aware of all or these. Everyone by now must have acknowledged Viktor's success in his badminton career but this video is talking about something different.
I really admire Viktor but one should understand that Lin and Lee brought up the level of craziness among the badminton fans and if anybody remember the finals of Lin and Lee was the peak of the badminton sport which we all have witnessed.. Rest is history💯💯💯
Not only that,
Don't forget that during their era,
A lot of very good players were present, it's just that they couldn't beat those 2 [3 , including ChenLong].
Lin dan's opponents Lcw, cheng long, taufik, peter gade....Victor's opponents ..........who......😂😂
I will say Viktor has played and beaten all of those players himself
@@BenBeckmanBadminton Now?.he is beaten by lot of youngsters.
Momota
I haven’t finished the video but I think Axelsen’s case comes down to 3 words. Lee Chong Wei. It is rare enough for a generation to have a “GOAT” candidate, let alone 2 in Lin Dan and LCW. And Super Dan came out on top. As great as Axelsen is, he doesn’t have a long term GOAT candidate rival to elevate his status, although one could argue that’s because of Axelsen’s absolute dominance in the current era. Momota was probably going to do it but that seems to be out of the way already. It is unfortunate, but it is what it is.
I continued to watch 😂 and of course, the great content creator that you are, you pointed this out too 😅