Improving MY riding | Motorcycle Overtaking
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- Опубліковано 13 жов 2024
- A collection of overtaking clips from a recent social ride that I originally put together to review my own riding with my friends and peers.
#IPSGA #advancedriding #overtaking #motorcycle #vlogger #iamroadsmart
Good work, Mike, and a really good example of the benefits of reflecting on our riding.
Nice one Mike. Taking a gear on the overtake is always a good discussion point, I also do it🏍💨.
I get it on older bikes with dodgy 'boxes. The Exploder's 'box may sound like a box of spanners but it works well. Personally, I'd rather get it done briskly and the change up for some mechanical sympathy.
As you said in the video, I definitely agree with not pre-committing the take before you're offside. I've thankfully gotten rid of doing that personally 99% of the time, but I still do it every now and then. If it was me doing these roads and overtakes, I believe some of them could have been done sooner, not massively sooner. But generally, it's really good to see someone with these high qualifications realising they're not perfect and therefore improving themselves. A lot of people ust get the qualification (or don't even do that) and think there's no space to improve. That, and your videos and my chief observer, is what's making me want to do my Master's next year
Many thanks for the kind words. If anything I am over critical of my riding, but video really does help analyse (though it isn't virtual reality). A following rider filming you can also be interesting.
Doing my IAM currently and it’s my golden rule never ever to tailgate. I keep a few seconds distant always and if moving closer in a planned overtake manoeuvre, I aim to do it on the offside when clear, then accelerate to the speed limit and get cleanly by. By keeping distant I find it helps forward visibility past the car being overtaken.
If you have to go quicker to be safe then it wasn’t on in the first place. The only exception is where the car accelerates and if that happens it’s usually better to drop back than get into dangerous games.
I thought you were getting too close, unnecessarily on a few of those, especially 6,7 & 8. Jumping the two wasn’t really on, as you had to grab a handful to get by safely. On one if them, I noticed you got close and the car being overtaken felt the need to pull over a bit, meaning taking his eyes off the road ahead as he was busy watching you in his rear view. The rest looked very neatly done
Sorry for the late reply, I didn't get a YT notification for some reason. Hope you IAM journey is progressing nicely. Tailgating is riding continually too close to the vehicle ahead. A momentary closeness prior to a 3 stage overtake is OK, though you need to watch what is happening ahead of the vehicle you are going to overtake. A contentious point and along with other aspects of overtaking, timing is key. The overtake where I had to "grab a handful" was down to the car speeding up, and the car I had just passed doing so also. My abort space had been removed.
@@mikeroberts Yes, the same has happened to me and the decision was to either abort or to speed up a little quicker than I should. I usually try and drop back rather than ride faster than I should into a reduced clearance to a corner or safe space. As you say, timing is key and the decision is usually informed by the speed of the vehicle being overtaken. I think twice for anything travelling at 50 to 55mph as any risk of them speeding up puts a legal overtake more risky. Usually if they're at 45mph or less there's enough in hand to quickly nip past unless they're playing silly sods.
i'am doing my IAM riding on pretest next week, when i first started i was a plodder at 63yrs old, i thought it was an insane way of riding, but know after also taking private lessons with a police instructor and passing my blue ribband gold with no comments, i am also doing a ROSPA course, its become the norm for me, i must say its a new world which i like, thanks to guys like yourself the bike world is a safer place.
Thanks for the positive feedback. Glad to hear this way of riding is helping you enjoy your bike.
Some great examples of overtaking, give yourself a greater safety bubble when overtaking. You’re still fairly close to some of the vehicles you are overtaking, use more of the opposite side of the road to increase your safety bubble.
Thanks for the positive feedback. Yes, one of the learning points for me was to move out some more.
it's interesting to see that you rarely have your visor down, as a naked bike rider this scares me as on many occasions I have had facial strikes from debris.
Funny you should say that. The Explorer screen is very good, but it can't defy physics. Here's my video on the subject.
ua-cam.com/video/BxjcWRimOl4/v-deo.html
Nicely Done Sir
Thx.
I enjoy watching your videos
I don’t know if it’s me or the camera angle but there doesn’t seem to be many shoulder checks on both out and back in again ( may just be me )
Thanks for watching Alan. I've just re-watched the footage and I can see blindspot/shoulder checks where required. Remember the advice is to 'consider' a check if you are unsure what is there. Also on several of these I am pulling out just after a oncoming car passes. It may be worth watching this one ua-cam.com/video/ECXvXXHtDHg/v-deo.html if you are expecting owl like checks.
@@mikeroberts no that’s fine as I said it can be the camera angle sometimes and I’m no expert
Hi Mike, not seen anything from you for a while. Are you OK mate ?
Hi, all good here thanks. Social riding, several IAM active Associates, cycling and life have got in the way. Also the Triumph has hit 40k and is in for a major service and a blown fork seal (too much riding). Hopefully I'll have some new videos up in the next few weeks. I have some footage saved up to edit.
@@mikeroberts Glad to hear you OK mate, thanks for getting back to me
Hi Mike, time to get a GS then you could just leave it in 3rd or 4th and use the torque😁🤣🤣
🤣😂But you know Andy that I'd be struck down by a bolt of lightening if I even sat on one after all I've said (in jest) over the years! 😀
2:42 - I do do this but strictly speaking, it's not good practice to take a gear during an overtake because of the problems a false neutral can create. I appreciate the manoeuvre was nine-tenths completed though.
Thanks for the feedback. Yes, this has come up before. I took 2, 2nd to 4th. I could have pulled in the clutch and rolled way further up the road the speed I was doing then. Some would suggest I change up before the overtake.
@@mikeroberts Well you've certainly got enough torque on that monstrosity. ; - )
@@Unfunny_Username_389 🤣😂😁
To be honest from a safety point of view it's 'not good practice' to ride a motorcycle so a gearchange when overtaking is OK if there are no unusual conditions. Imo
I see no problem with changing gear during mid overtake, it's a well over-thought situation in my opinion. I often refer to the word "reasonable" and is it reasonable to expect an advanced rider on modern machinery to miss gears? Of the hundreds of thousands/millions of changes I've done, any misses have been hitting neutral from 1st and even then, incredibly rare.
Imo you sometimes appear to be in the close following position (1 sec) before you need to be and "hanging" around rather than anticipating when to move up. I personally hate the close following position unless absolutely necessary as it too close for my comfort and limits vision as per the van on 10. Just my opinion.
Thanks for the comment/feedback. I try not to be in the nearer position for any longer than necessary. It's always a topic for much debate.
Your right, on the first overtake we started with you being some 60 ft behind the vehicle in front and with a speed in the region of 40 to 50 mph and that is far too close to be safe to stop in in the event of an emergency. That said you are merely doing what you teach others to do and all advanced riders and drivers are seemingly taught to Tailgate anyway. Then you decided to overtake but due to your close position you started to accelerate and then you pulled out onto the other side of the road, a swerve manoeuvre, which brought you even closed up to the car in front, to be only about 30 ft behind and that again is even more dangerous.
If we look at the police way of riding with the 3 point overtake and the way I was trained one actually gets out there onto the other side of the road prior to finally deciding on an overtake and by now being on the other side of the road we are no longer directly behind the vehicle in front and thus technically not Tailgating but still potentially dangerous. Also we have a much better view of the road ahead and of any potential dangers. a view we do not have whilst still behind the car in front. Have you ever tried to see from behind a transit van or a car with blackened windows and five head rests, and being so close one cannot see through it or beneath it either. Its almost if not impossible.
Its from that wider and safer position that we can decide whether to overtake or not and if one is on we just chose the right gear to obtain what would be our overtaking speed. That is usually about 10 mph faster than the vehicle to be overtaken is going and accelerate without getting any closer to the car in front and not just blasting past and having to brake hard to regain our normal side of the road.. By the by the overtake is only finished when we are in our correct and safe position on our own side of the road and that means that we must have left enough room to be able to give safe space to the car or vehicle and not to cut him up by a giving a mere 20 or 30 ft or even 60 ft at those speeds. Thus ensuring both our safety and his safety and the safety of all road users around at the time. We don't want to cause him any concern with regards to the safe distance that we have afforded him and returned into.
Too often I see an earlier than necessary return that is not justified or that was unfortunately necessary due to the closer proximity of oncoming traffic making a dubious overtake dangerous in the first place and one that obviously should not have been considered in the first place. .
Robert, the video has shown that at times I DO need to ensure I am in the oncoming lane before 'firing the gun'. The typical 3 stage overtake as advised in Roadcraft. The fact I coach Associates to make sure they are offside before committing made it even more of an eye opener that I was overlapping the move out and applying a little bit of throttle. I do still maintain though that despite Roadcraft's two theoretical ways of overtaking, that most overtakes performed are a hybrid of the two.
With regard to your claim that I am tailgating, and coach people to tailgate, I'll say as I have before to you, that your definition of tailgating is different to everybody else I know or anything I have read. Tailgating is sitting too close behind a vehicle CONTINUALLY.
@@mikeroberts I think that my definition of Tailgating is right That its an offence and more importantly more dangerous whether its for seconds or longer. You are right we are trained to place ourselves in that position and i have seen many a video with riders doing just that and remaining in that position whilst passing 'no overtaking' white lines etc. They will be in danger once they become any closer than the 2 second rule or the recommended distances in the H.C or by the DVSA. So what i am saying is that once you have crossed that safety threshold, say at 40 mph where the recommended safe stoppling distance id 120 ft once you are at ay time closer than that distance you could be tailgating as you cannot guarantee to stop in the lesser distance.
that is the crux of Tailgating, that one is unable to guarantee stopping in the DISTANCE GIVEN AND IS THE GOLDEN RULE NUMBER 2 OF ADVANCED RIDING. THAT ONE SHOULD AT ALL TIMES BE IN A POSITON TO STOP IN THE DISTANCE SEEN TO BE CLEAR AND ON OVERTAKING WE FAIL TO ACCOMODATE THAT SAFETY RULE AT ALL. You or others may not consider to being only 110 ft behind at 40 mph but it doesn't strop there. One then gets closer and closer and closer so say a one second gap of 60 ft or even a closer to a thinking distance gap of only 40 ft whilst still behind the vehicle being overtaken.
Then One might not be able to overtake at that time, say due to a bend or oncoming vehicles but maybe having gone to position 2 of the overtake, to the other side of the road, ie pulled out to view the road ahead and finding that one is not on then Roadcraft tells us that we can return to the following on position or indeed back to the 'overtaking position' So it looks like that riders can return to a definite Tailgating position until they ca have another attempt at an overtake. Look at Stage 3 of the most recent 2021 of Police Roadcraft on page 218.
So your assumption and that of others or your statement that one is only seconds behind another vehicle and therefore is not a Tailgating position is completely wrong. The H. C. appreciates that at times we will find ourselves in such a position, usually as a result of others, and that immediately we do so we should slow and allow safer stopping distances. However this is actually placing ourselves deliberately in such a position and that together with all other Tailgating situations should never ever be tolerated as its one of the most dangerous position to place or find oneself in and a danger not only to ones self but you become a danger to all other road users in general.
@@rcraven1013 Roadcraft is quite clear that the overtaking position should only be used "in readiness for overtaking". Nowhere does it state you can stay there for any length of time (that's your interpretation). Equally, nowhere in any of my videos will you see me continuing to ride in the overtaking position waiting for an opportunity, effectively harassing the driver ahead. Instead I would drop back and restart the process. I'd also point out to you that I've completed many tests over many years, both for IAM and ROSPA for various purposes. All of these were conducted by serving or ex-police motorcyclists and not one of them has every mentioned, or raised concerns about, my following distance or closeness of the overtaking position.
@@mikeroberts Mike its not you personally that I am getting at its the practise that is wrong and has been wrong for many years., As you are no doubt aware far too many deaths result by poor overtaking and it was 1out of 6 but is apparently now a stat that 1 in 8 collisions on overtakes result in a death and that surely cannot be maintained but it is and still will be as we still teach an outmoded practise. Or it is taught wrongly or received by the trainee wrong.
As you say you decided that on some overtakes you were too close and accelerating which was a point I picked up on. Also I believe that you were too close at times being between 40 and 60 ft behind another vehicle and at the speed that you were doing you would have been unable to guarantee to stop in the event of an emergency.
You picked up on the fact that at times you should have been on the outside or wrong side of the road earlier and that's what should happen as described in Roadcraft. By pulling out earlier one is reducing the risk associated with tailgating but obviously increasing the risk of meeting with oncoming vehicles but that's what Roadcraft advises us to do but with good forwards observations it becomes less of a risk and by placing ourselves in that position we are doing so with a clearer vision of the road ahead and that negates some of the dangers of tailgating.
When you talk about being continually too close and there for only a short time that is like or similar to the advice that was once given as to whether its ok to exceed the speed limit on an overtake. Of being over the speed limit for a very brief period of time. The right answer would have been NO but the wrong answer was provided to many trainees.They got that providing its was only for a second and that you were not doing it regularly and overtaking everything at those speeds then it would be considered ok. That advice was abolished a few years back and many training bodies advised trainers to recommend a no speeding policy on overtakes,. It strikes me that there is a similarity question with Tailgating. That it is something similar that we should look at and again its no use saying its ok providing that its only temporary and that one should not be doing it on a regular basis its should not be a modern practise anyway.
You obviously know more and have a different view on the overtaking position to IAM, ROSPA and Masters examiners who, like Mike says, are mostly either serving or ex police riders who ride to Roadcraft, maybe you should get in touch with these organisations and explain that what they are teaching is wrong? Just a thought?
Hello Mike...have just found your videos and enjoying them. Have tried to email you via the link on Suffolk Advanced Motorcyclists but it doesn't work. Are you on Messenger or similar?
Glad you are enjoying them. the email address on the SAM committee page is correct or there's a UA-cam specific one in the channel description/about on here.