I’ve only been playing for 2.5 years but line calls are the worst part of the game in my opinion. When I started playing better I was one of those that would question a call when I was sure the call was wrong. I’ve learned from then, if it is close I generally can’t be 100% sure it is out so I call it in. Keep in mind, I don’t play in tournaments, I just play for fun and exercise. Some people I play with want to win every game and sometimes get testy, but that’s their problem. I try to give the benefit of the doubt, it’s not life or death so in the big scheme of things, it doesn’t really matter. I think some of the issue with line calls is people forget this game isn’t tennis. A tennis ball compresses on impact and can clip a line as we see with electronic line calls today. Pickleballs don’t compress but I think people arguing the call from a distance, especially from the far side of the net not only see a different angle but forget the ball doesn’t compress and clip the line. However, if it is that close play it as ‘in’ and play on.
I think most players do their best to call the lines fairly. If I can see that there is a question about a call, I ask my opponents if they saw the call differently, and if they did I’ll change the call. I’ve done that in competitive play too if they are both very insistent, after all we all make mistakes. One other thing I do is to focus on what I can control. I can’t change their line calling so I stop hitting it so close to the line. ;)
Nice clarification. I was using the concept I employed in volleyball, that being the ball had to make contact with the line to be in. Your point is well taken in rec especially…. definitely out . And if we use the “saw space” guideline, even poorer angles can get correct calls.
I'm a volleyball referee, newly come to pickleball. So I thought that, as in volleyball (or tennis, I believe), pickleball's assessment of whether a ball was in or out would ask you to judge if the flattened part of the ball on the ground had physically touched the line. But pickleball seems to be saying that you can only call 'out' if you yourself saw daylight between the ball and the line. That's got to depend hugely on where your eyes were. Your partner, being further away, is in a much stronger position to call 'out' than the person playing the ball.
I'm a little confused about one thing about the rally described around the 5:00-6:00 minute mark. So Tony said his team was ultimately awarded the point (or side out or change of server) because the ref overruled the opponent and called it in. Is that the rule when an out call is reversed to in? They had continued to play after the out call and the opponents put away, so that's my conclusion.
Once the ball bounces and an out call is made by a team member the ball is now considered dead,. Any shots that happen after that are irrelevant. Their opponent made an out call before two more shots were hit. Those shots are irrelevant since the ball is dead. Tony appealed the out call to the ref who then reversed it, saying yes he saw the ball and it was in. That was why Tony and his partner won the rally.
Great video - thanks. To your points: 3b - Replay. Another advantage is that you get to play one more rally. 3c - Agency. This reminds me of my personal rule to always aim down the middle on overheads so that when I miss by 8 feet (!) it is still in play and sometimes "great angle!" 3d - Distraction. Right. let it go. Don't lose two points on one 'bad' call.
@@ct8409 you are correct that’s what the rule says but in a friendly game my suggestion is to either replay it or give the call to the other side. I feel it’s more important to keep the peace
I appreciate your approach of coining Agency (hitter's decision/responsibility) and Playing to a Player's Leniency regarding bad close calls (cause we've all made them). I feel like the Rules are clear and if followed consistently Agency and Leniency are addressed. Allow me to explain: First it is Important to distinguish between the two Standards; The Standard that Officials (Referees and Line Judges) are bound to vs Players (whether in a Tournament or Recreational Play). Officials are constantly STATIONARY and can therefore make more decerning calls on OUT balls they SEE!! Ironically Players are constantly moving, yet the Responsibility for Perimeter OUT Calls (unless there are line judges), CLEARLY stated in the Rulebook, rests on the Team on the End of the Court the ball Bounced on. The Official's Standard is based solely on where the Base of the Ball Touches, AND are therefore only Overruled when the Official is absolutely certain where they Saw the Ball Land (your explanation may have blurred this distinction). True any Ruling made by a Courtside Official may be Appealed to the Head Referee or TD. HOWEVER, unless the Referee made a Rule Interpretation Error, OR a decision that ALL the Players disagree with (which must have been the case in your example), That sort of Appeal will likely prove fruitless, and just further wastes Play Time and Interrupts the Flow of the game - so is NOT Recommended. The Player's Standard on making an Out Call is explained in Pickleball Etiquette section of the Rules. Unless the Player Clearly Sees the ball as Out they should Consider the Ball as IN. Also in games without a Referee, Any Call made by a Team on their End should NOT be challenged by the Opponents and can be Appealed to the Referee if there is one (in which case the Referee's Decision is Final!). The other options to relinquish the decision by asking the Opponents is of course an Option, is best only used between close friends, as you explained. However, without a Referee, following the Rules on Line Calling AND Not Even Considering Challenging another Team 's OUT Calls will naturally allow you to Focus on the more important Next Shot. You might also want to address the proper mindset for Partners Overruling their Partner's Call to their own Team's Determent (so that They don't dwell on a Partner's bad call either; AND because other Player's won't want to Play with a Partner/Player with a Bad Reputation!!!). Conclusion: Follow the Credo "HONESTY OVER LOYALTY!" Don't waste Everyone's Play Time by Arguing about Calls or even the Score! Keep playing and adjust later if necessary. More time Playing = more fun; any time arguing = wasted time (our most precious resource!!!!). Thank you for your efforts to improve everyone's Pickleball.
Based on the same points and principles noted here, the player closest to the ball on the serve is in the best position to make the call in lieu of a referee who should be keenly watching the play at all times.
On Saturday I twice called against myself balls that the opponent had called in. I think they were a bit surprised by my honesty as nobody else seems to do this.
Right around 1:33 the magnet is placed on the left line, Tony says "that's not out' but magnet looks like its also touching the kitchen line. Would that be out on a serve?
Great clarification Tony. My last question is this~ we stopped playing because our opponent called it out. The “out” caller reflexively returned the ball while calling it out ( it had bounced). Seconds later the partner called it in. They contended we had a chance to keep the ball in play and we should have returned it. However we stopped playing at the time the ball bounced and was called out. It seems the only thing to do is replay it?
Once the partner from the team on the other side of the net called the ball "in", (after his team mate called it out initially) the ball is now considered "IN" and its your point or their side out or their change of server...which ever applies. There can be no uncertainty when a IN or OUT call is made. Once there is uncertainty...a slow call after the ball is dead, or I "think" it was out, or a team mate making the opposite call as you described above, there is uncertainty and per the rule book, the other team who hit the shot is given the benefit of the doubt and the ball is played as "IN" bounds. There is no need to play the point over, you earned the point. You don't want to teach your opponents bad habits when it comes to line calling especially if you are dealing with a frequent "bad calls" opponent. If it's just fun social play and everyone is easy going and playing just to have fun rallies and don't really care much about who wins or losses you can offer to play it over but if you decide to do that it's a good idea to explain the rule and how it should be handled so that person knows when he is playing with other people what he should expect. Personally, on a hard fast shot to any of the sidelines my brain power allows me to optimize my concentration on either the ball path and body movements needed to hit the best return I possibly can OR to position myself to make an accurate IN or OUT call but not both. If I focus exclusively on making the correct call and the ball is IN, I might hit a very poor return because my primary focus is on making the call and not the best return shot. So if it's close, I decide ahead of time to focus everything on making a good return shot and if I realize a second after I have hit the ball that it was actually out I continue to play the point as though the ball was IN without saying anything. If I play the ball, the ball is considered IN regardless of whether it bounced IN or OUT. Sometimes my opponents will over rule me (to my advantage) saying the ball was out (to their disadvantage) and I will do the same if I clearly see my shot or my partner's shot was out after my opponents called it in.
@@timhardman4764 So to clarify~we stopped play bc they called the ball out. But then they called it in. They contended that bc they changed the call from “out” to “in” we should have returned the ball the “out” caller reflexively hit back to us. It was too late for us to return it bc there was a time lag between the “in” and “out” call. So are you satung it became our point? I agree with you on do-overs. I don’t think they are necessary with a very few exceptions. All the players on the court that day were at least 3.5 players and all with at least 3 years of experience. No newbies were present. Thank you.
Excellent video Tony! The Agency in point 3C is a huge one I had not considered. I often find myself (as a beginner) aiming for lines as a way to get those close calls. But in reality I want to be hitting them just inside so there is 0 chance of disputing the earned point. By knowing going in that aiming for that line is going to yield some close calls I will definitely tweak to aim less at the line but that sweet spot that is undoubtably IN the line. As a result I'll still get some line calls but far less than right now. I love the idea of taking responsibility for shot placement because you're right. Partner, friend, or random opponent, you're forcing them into a spot that no one wants to be in. Arguing over judgement call line calls isn't why we play the game so making it happen less just makes sense.
Thank you. I have a question: during a recent tournament, we hit back a return of serve to the side line on the service side. The receiver on that side immediately indicated in(tennis hand signal) and her partner on the opposite side, called it out. The receiver, then changed her call to agree with her partner, saying that she was moving so her partner probably saw it accurately. How do you handle a call change like that? Would this be considered “not clearly out” and presumed in?
If one partner calls it out and the other calls it in, it's in. 6.C.8. In doubles play, if one player calls the ball “out” and the partner calls it “in,” then doubt exists and the team’s call will be “in.” Any player may appeal a call to the referee. If the referee did not see the ball, the ball is considered in.
Great topic Tony. Thank you. I wish more people would accept the rule that the ball is in if you can't clearly determine it was out. So many players realize it might be out and they wanted it to be out so they say "I think it was out". I tell my partners all the time "I couldn't call it out". Some of them can accept that while others came from the "When in doubt, call it out" school.
There are specific rules that govern when you can call a replay. It is important that beginners know and play by the rules. If you teach them it's ok to call a replay when the is a disagreement, they will use that option over and over instead of going by the actual rules that cover when a replay is allowed.
While you are correct players should strive to play by the rules and there are specific instances in which a replay is available as a source of remedy, the way the rules are currently written it is virtually impossible to know when a replay is appropriate and when it is not. Since most players, will primarily play in rec play situations a replay is an equitable offer to keep things friendly. Should a player choose to play in a tournament they should then strive to be more well versed in replay options.
@@BetterPickleball I absolutely agree with you, rec play should be more friendly as we are not in the PPA. I was in a rec tournament play and we did two replays during the game because of uncertainty and controversy. our opponents gave me and my partner a replay, and then when another controversy erupted, we did a replay for them. it all felt like the right thing to do
How do you handle this situation? A shot from my opponent lands near the base line on my side of the court, and my partner calls it Out immediately after it bounces. (According to your explanation, the play is now dead.) However, I immediately respond, "No it's good", and I play it with a winner up the middle. Although an "In" call overrides an "Out" call, my oppenents claim that they didn't try to return my shot, because they heard the "Out" call and stopped playing. That made perfect sense to me. I think we agreed that the "Out" call was a distraction, so we replayed the point. However, was that the correct call, or should my winner shot have counted for a point? Thanks
The minute your partner called it out the ball was dead. When you disagreed with the call the rally was won by your opponents. Whenever team members disagree on a call on their side the benefit of the doubt goes to their opponent.
Thank you fir this clarification. Very clear! Could you explain stacking…. How, where do players go if point isn’t won….. where to go if player wins the point…. If u stack on guest serve, must you continue stacking thru out the game, , etc. lots of confusion in this.
Off-topic request for future video: How seniors should keep their movement and footing in proper form to prevent stumbling or falling backward. In the past two weeks, I've seen two seniors stumble on the court and hurt their elbow, knee, and hip. I've also been involved in a near stumble, but I was able to stop myself from falling.
@@BetterPickleball I am age 72. I play mostly with seniors. I find too many seniors play with their feet too close together. Also, they stand straight up. This combination creates a high center of gravity. I encourage them to widen their base and lower their hips while keeping their head above their hips. (AKA: an athletic position.) I'm sure Tony has seen this and will be able to communicate a process to correct this stance.
@@miketraywick9590 agreed. There are multiple videos on both our channels about the ready position. In addition one of the biggest mistakes that leads to injury is players move backward to get a lob without turning their bodies perpendicular to the net
I’m 72, been playing for about 17 years. I agree with the other comments about players standing to upright and with their feet close together. Something else to consider is: 1. Is PB their only form of exercise? If so, they most likely have a limited range of flexibility and stability. Do they do any stretches to warm up their muscles before start of play? 2. They’re not wearing proper court shoes. 3. If they’re playing indoors, perhaps in a school or church gym, it’s possible the floor has sticky spots or areas which are slick. Having said this, I fell soon after I learned the game. Fractured my right wrist and left elbow. A temporary net had been set up on an outdoor basketball court. The court had some cracked and buckled pavement. I don’t know if I tripped on a crack or my own feet. However, I returned to the game ASAP and now as a PB instructor at the YMCA….I am constantly reminding my students of ways to prevent injuries.
I have a question on the hindrance rule. Sometimes a player will get to the kitchen line and stand right on the half court line during a match and it seems like it’s particularly when the guys on a roll on the serving. In rec play, who gets to call the hindrance. I’ve had this happen, it really bothersome on my serve. So if you could answer that it would be appreciated because the rules are always set up with a referee and rec play. You don’t have a referee. So who again is allowed to call hindrance?
The first thing is to go to the rule book to define a hinder. 3.A.15. Hinder - Any transient element or occurrence not caused by a player that adversely impacts play, not including permanent objects. Examples include, but are not limited to, balls, flying insects, foreign material, players or officials on another court that, in the opinion of the referee, impacted a player’s ability to make a play on the ball. Because the case you described is caused by another player it is not a hinder. The other part of the rulebook that may fit is a distraction. Again let's go to the definition. 3.A.6. Distraction - Physical actions by a player that are ‘not common to the game’ that, in the judgment of the referee, may interfere with the opponent’s ability or concentration to hit the ball. Examples include, but are not limited to, making loud noises, stomping feet, waving the paddle in a distracting manner or otherwise interfering with the opponent’s concentration or ability to hit the ball. Now, if the player stood in the service box and ran off to one side of the court once you started the service motion, a good case could be made that is a distraction. However, in this instance, you describe the player as "standing on the line center line." It would be pretty hard to make the case that behavior is 'not common to the game' as stated in the rule. (I personally stand very close to the center line for a variety of reasons My advice would be to try to imagine a target right in the middle of the box and focus on that. If you miss more toward the center and hit him, that's a fault on the return team if it touches him before it hits the ground. If you miss toward the side line, having a target in the center should allow you enough room to keep it in bounds.
The first thing that comes to mind is the "nasty nelson". I tell my students that if the receivers partner makes a habit of crowding that line, I move over to change the path of my serve - if they are in the way - oh well. @@BetterPickleball
I like the video! I always heard your partner should call any ball under your feet, when you are looking strait down on the line? . Also what about appealing a call to their partner? When we have a match with our buddies, we talk about calls and the score. When you play open court, some people call anything close , out?
You have the best view of a ball that is under your feet. Your partner is further away and looking at an angle. But yes you can ask your partner what their call is but if you are at odds the call goes in favor of your opponents. I think it's great to confer with the other team. (according to the rules if you do their call stands). When a ball that's close to the line gets called out I look at what I can control. Since I can't control their call I stop hitting it so close to the line. 😂
Excellent explanation but I need more on the definition of out. Is it when the center point of the ball is outside the line when looking from down from a vertical position directly above the ball? Or is it out if even the edge of the ball is barely over the line when looking down from a from a vertical vantage point?
You can find all the additional support materials in Section 6 of the Rule book. betterpickleball.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/USA-Pickleball-Official-Rulebook-2023-v2-2.pdf
i returned the ball over the net and the spin caused it to come back over the net to my side. What is the rule? do I need to return it, or is it a point?
What if the ball hits the ground, one player calls it out but the closer player continues to play the ball? Does the ball have to be called out by the closer player otherwise is it considered partner communication?
It does not have to be called out by the closet player and it doesn’t matter if the ball is played after an out call is made. However if the partners disagree and one calls it out and the other says it’s in, it’s in
Good video. We have a good group when we play, and there is never any real arguments about calls. There have been some controversial ones, but they haven't sullied our games; we just take them in stride. We usually err on the side of leniency (especially with newer or less advanced players), preferring to keep a rally going than to make sharp calls to gain or deny a point. That said, we are all very competitive and want to win, and don't give away points from not calling clearly "out" balls. The "if you see space - then call it out" axiom works for me. Never thought about the agency aspect, but it makes sense. I like painting the line sometime, but always try to give myself a few inches for error - so it will be less likely to force a judgment. Replaying a point is ok, but I prefer not to get in that mode, because it diminishes the accepted opposition judgment for calls and delays the game. The only time we would replay (normally) is when a stray ball comes from another court AND affects the play. In/out calls are probably at the top of the list when judging a game, but illegal serves and kitchen violations sometime creep up too - although the latter is usually self-policed pretty well in our games. And for the serves, if it isn't blatant or creating a clear advantage, we tend to let it go. Otherwise, I would call them out on it. Obviously, if you are teaching someone new to the game, you would correct them (and maybe give them a couple of serve attempts to get it right).
@@BetterPickleball we do, and the age range is 20 to 70, and we all intermingle and play with and against each other. Constantly amazed at how great a shape some of the older ladies are in.
Re: what is out? Saw a recent video on this and the bottom line was: if you could look down on the ball and any part of it was over the line the ball is in. But because the ball doesn’t compress like a tennis ball no part of the ball has to actually touch the line. True or false? Very fine line, I know! Also, I’ve played for 15 years and have always heard there is no such thing as a replay. As a mediator, I like your compromise proposal for fun play!
Those line calls are just so hard to call when they are close enough to look on the line but the bottom of the ball may not be touching. I recommend calling it in if you cannot see space between the ball and the line and moving onto the next point!
What if one player calls it out but the partner says they didn't see it? I would think that is out, but some players interpret that as a disagreement hence in.
If a ball is clearly going out, say a foot from the line and a person yells out before it hits the ground and then stops it with their raquet,if the other team made the shot and was serving is it their point?
Enjoyed your video, especially your comments on the concept of agency. I'd like to suggest a common occurrence you might include in that section. In the situation, as you described it, the person I directed the shot to is in the absolute best position to make the call. I will take their call all day long. If they want a sanity check, the only person in a position to give it is my partner based on his vantage point. The person least able to provide a useful observation is his partner, on the other side of the court. Given the size of the ball and the acute angle of his view, for that player to see space between line and ball, the the out would have to be obvious to everyone else. And yet, I see people making line calls from the other side of the court all the time.
You make a great point Alan. It's important to remember that the out call rules are written in a manner to give all doubts or uncertainty to our opponents.
On the serve if the ball touches the center line, the side line or base line it is considered in. If it touches the NVZ line, it is considered a fault.
Very helpful discussion, Tony. I have a question for you that I've not encountered before in recreational doubles. I was receiving serve and my partner was up at the kitchen line. I clearly saw the ball go wide of the center line and saw blue court between the ball and the line. I called it out immediately but I also returned the ball because I was preparing for it to be in the court. Everyone stopped playing at that point. However, my partner (who did not have an appropriate view of the line call because she was behind the ball) said she thought the ball hit the line. I explained to her that from my angle, I could clearly see the court color between the ball and the center line. Therefore, I was very certain the ball was out. She kept insisting that she saw the ball on the line. Long story short, she said we have to give them the point because we disagreed on the call. But, in my view, she should not have been making the call to begin with. Also, because we all got so distracted, everyone forgot that I actually returned the ball back into the court. Therefore, we should have replayed the point with the disputed call, right? But because my partner and I took so long discussing the call, the other team said let's just do rock, paper, scissors and whoever wins gets the point. By that point, I had tuned out and just wanted to move forward. But, in your view, how should doubles teams handle these kinds of calls?
@@sashagirl357 in rec play games often a replay is a great solution when there is a dispute between opponents. However, in this instance the rule is clear 6.D.8. In doubles play, if one player calls the ball “out” and the partner calls it “in,” then doubt exists and the team’s call will be “in.”
Thanks but I really don't understand 3a. If two people close to the ball have different perspectives and one sees space between the line and the ball but the other person doesn't see space because of their perspective, why doesn't the person with the best view get to call it out?
A couple of things in the framework of the rules. We only call the lines on our side of the court and our calls should favor our opponents if in doubt. Should my partner make the call if they have a better view, yes. Can we ask our opponents to make the call, yes we can do that too. In general it's best not to get to hung up on the call but to do what you think is right.
I am new to the game and would like some clarification on what is considered the field of play. A pickleball is approx 2.75" in diameter. If it touches the court at a point 1" outside the line, the ball is still within the verticle plane of the court. So my question is: how are the dimensions of the court defined? By point of contact or when it crosses the vertical place of the courts line.
@@AndyWilkeSr Per this video and the current Rules book, to make an "OUT" call, you must see a "gap", or a space between the edge of the pickle ball and the white line. If from your viewpoint, the edge of the yellow ball is overlapping the white line or just touching it, the ball is IN....even though the actual contact point of the ball on the playing surface may be OUT. Unlike Tennis balls, the pickle ball has very little compression so it does not flatten out when it contacts the court after a hard shot allowing that contact patch to expand over the line. It's just un-workable to ask every pickle ball player at every level to make an estimate of how big the contact patch was on the close line calls so to eliminate those subjective calls, the contact patch is no longer used to call a ball in or out. If any part of the ball is hanging over or on the same vertical plane as the outside edge of the sideline, the ball is IN. Whatever the color is of the out of bounds court, you must be able to see at least a sliver of that color between the yellow ball and the white line to call the ball OUT.
I agree with every part of this video! I just had a similar situation yesterday, and it caused me a lot of distress😮 (I’m only human)…I was served to, and the ball landed on my partner’s side of the court. I was 3 feet from the back line and standing near the middle line, so I saw it. My partner, on the other hand, was not near enough to the line to make a judgment. The other team thought that the ball was in and even after my partner said she was not sure, they did not default to me. They defaulted to themselves, and said they would not accept my call but only play the point over. So many times I have offered to other players let’s do the point over if I was unsure, but when I’m sure I don’t think the other team has the right to demand the point be played over. I usually go for leniency, but honestly, I felt there was a bit of bullying going on in this situation (as well as other times with this particular woman), so did not agree to the point being played over. How would you have handled the situation? One can say this is just “community” play but I do feel that we should try to stick to the rules as much as possible.
It's situational. If it's a tournament and I believe I was correct I would stick with my call. If the other team was absolutely adamant and my partner was unsure I may chose to reverse it. If it was rec play I would give them the points. Especially in rec play, I ask myself, would you rather be right or be happy? Because one call is not going to win or lose the game and a win or a loss really isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things.
Great job of clarifying "when is out" and handling "out call disagreements". However, I respectfully ask how you can demonstrate "what is out" with a flat disk. A sphere meets a flat plane at a point. Even allowing for compression and slide of the ball as it hits the surface, any ball viewed from directly above or directly down the line that appears more than half out never touches the line. I believe you would call these balls "in" even though a low angle view from my height challenged partner with great visual acuity on the opposite side of the court might see the green. Perhaps we're making lots of bad calls?
Excellent video. Something I wish you had spent a little more time on is what happens when the ball has landed, and was called out but also hit at roughly the same time and play continued (perhaps due to the mixed message of the call and subsequent hit). What I gather from your video is play should stop, and if it continues should be disregarded because the ball has been called out and is therefore dead.
You're correct and there seems to be some confusion around this. Once the ball lands and is called out it's considered dead and any play that happens after that is irrelevant. Thanks for the suggestion. You might find it in a future video.
Especially for balls close to the 'long-axis' lines (i.e.sidelines and midlines - not 'cross' lines), the best perspective/judgement is often from the opponent who might have "direct line of sight" e.g. down a specific sideline. It is very appropriate (when the two team members are unsure or who differ on the 'call' of the ball 'in or 'out') to sometimes ask the line-of sight opponent: "Did you see that ball?". This provides respect to the opponent, removes conflict, facilitates the progress of the game. And sometimes the opponent will call the ball in your favor. (Of course, one must accept the opponent's call, if he/she is confident of seeing the ball as "in" or "out"). Nothing to lose here - much to gain. By the way, there is NOTHING wrong or inappropriate in placing the ball near the lines in the opponents' court. It is part of the game. So, your ideas here are incomprehensible and just plain wrong.
Appreciate your perspective, not every player is flexible about line calls.. The rule book covers what happens when two team members disagree, the call goes in favor or your opponent. I don't think I said there was something inapposite or wrong about putting the ball near the lines, just that if you do be willing to accept the call that is given.
This is a really good video, recently I called a ball out that was close to the line that my opponent (a friend) had hit. when I made the call, she argued with me and I told her it was not her call to make. because she started arguing I did not back down on my call, instead I stood by my call even though it did look a bit iffy. I said later we can all make mistakes on calls, but we should never let the opponents argue or make the call when we have not asked their input. I had another experience in a recreational tournament where I hit a ball that I thought was partially on the line but my partner called it out. The opponent started arguing right away but we had not asked for her input. My partner replayed the point but after the match, she got mad at me for not backing her up. I told her that an argument ensued and then there was a replay and there was no time for me to interject because things happened so fast. Plus my partner did not ask me what I thought in the middle of the game and they replayed it anyway. all of this is happening in rec play between friends and it is annoying 🤦♀️ The bottom line is, opponents should never start arguing or try to commandeer the call when they have not been asked for input! Any thoughts are welcome
Yes, it's not the opponents place to make a call on my side of the court, but if they feel strongly about it, especially in a rec play situation I reverse it immediately. The person is always more important than an L or W. In a tournament, I've also reversed calls. In that situation I consult with my partner first.
Great video - simple, direct and not full of distracting digital frufaw. I do disagree with the concept of "replay" to save friendships. As far as I can tell, the only 'replays" allowed in the current iteration of the rules is "body or ball" on court (made subject to the players on the courts' call - new ruling I don't agree with) or when the ball drops over the net and hits the cross bar. There are no more "net serves" - didn't agree with that new rule - I understand why it was changed, but, making the net a 5th player during the serve doesn't add to the game, IMO. What I do like immensely is the new rules for the call of "in and out" balls - which this video does an excellent job of addressing and making very clear what those new rules are - however - giving players the option to "replay" in the "spirit" of friendship kind of puts the game into the "backyard badminton and beers" mindset - anything goes as long as we are all having fun. I teach beginners and I tell my students what the rules are, make the best call you (and your partner) can - then live with the guilt if you are still agonizing over the call - we all do that. Getting players away from the "all calls are resolved by just replaying" was a hard thing to do. The "game" includes making snap decisions that you have to own - it is integral to the play of the game. If, like you point out, I hit a ball down the sideline and it isn't clearly in, looks to me like it hit the line but the opponent calls it out - I can scream, gnash my teeth, pout, question their need for glasses or an understanding of the new rules - but - according to the new rule there is no option for a do-over to save someone's' feelings about the tough call they just made. It is hard enough to get new players just learning the game (and sometimes is their first experience with any sort of competitive interaction with other people) to loudly and confidently make a "OUT" ruling "IMMEDIATELY". They look around to see if they did it right - if it is obviously a good call, everyone smiles and play continues, but, if it is close, you can see who the alpha type of players are - even in beginning classes - they are the ones that will not go quietly into the night over a close call - and - will stop to ask the teacher if the call by the other person was made correctly - a subtle form of intimidation. It is a slippery slope to go back to the time when players could just bully other players into replaying a point because they didn't like the call or win the point - replay is not like TV replay - it is never the same play - just gives a player another bite at the apple. I hear what you are saying about replays as sort of a last resort, but, I think it just allows for player abuse the way it use to be - but no one wants to admit it is/was true - thank you again for the great video.
Thanks, good piece. We all get wrapped up in a bad call and it is distracting. Better to move on. I have an member of my club that often calls things in his favor, but otherwise is a good person and a good player. Oh well! Rather play with the occasional bad call than not play at all.
In our friendly matches, if there is a disagreement on a call (in or out), the assumption is that the player closer to the ball has a better view of it and that player makes the call. (ball is on your side, you make the call.) Otherwise, you'd better have a ref. It works since that is our home rule - no discussion.
This is the definition of distraction- Distractions. Players may not distract an opponent when the opponent is about to play the ball. As an example if you were to yell something to your partner just before your opponent hit the ball that could be considered a distraction
good video. I had this happen if you want to address it? I was called for a foot fault by my partner. This is what happened,I hit a ball in the air, returning it down the middle line, and it hit the court, bounced through the court, out the back, hit the fence and dropped to the ground. At that point, I stepped forward to return to the base line. My feeling was that my momentum had stopped before stepping. ?? It's not a big deal to me just wondered what the book says.
if the hitting back motion has stopped, supposedly you can step in the kitchen.., but you may not realize the time between that is too short to think the motion stopped.
Great question. Rule 3.A.20 says The act of volleying produces momentum that ends when the player regains balance and control of their motion or stops moving toward the non-volley zone. In short if you had regained your balance and stepping into the NVZ was not as a result of momentum from the shot then there was no fault.
"At that point, I stepped forward to return to the base line" - it sounds like you stepped forward to stop your forward momentum and then turned around to return to the base line. If facing South and you want to go North, most people don't take another step South before turning around to go North unless they are being carried by their momentum. If your partner corrected you (at your team's expense) I'm pretty sure he was trying to help you with a bad habit and he believed your body's momentum carried you over the kitchen line; or he was letting you know, even if you did establish a balanced position after completing the shot, you were giving the appearance of entering the kitchen illegally and you should be aware of this appearance and not form this bad habit. There is no good reason to step forward after hitting the type of shot you described (except to regain balance) and if you are aware of how close you are to the kitchen line most players are actively making sure they control their balance after the shot by reducing body movement and momentum and using only an "arm" swing in this situation so they don't accidentally have to step into the kitchen to keep standing. The Ball is Never Dead with this type of fault. After hitting that shot, you could be on the edge of the line, windmilling with your arms trying to regain your balance without touching the white line or steeping forward for 30 seconds or a minute and the point is still alive until you establish balance without touching the white line or entering the kitchen. You must step back and away from the line if fighting for your balance no matter how long it takes...the point is still live until you back up away from the line or establish without any doubt you are balanced and relaxed and not fighting for balance in your current position and again....after establishing your balance there is no reason to step forward into the kitchen or on the kitchen line at the end of this type of point. You only go into the kitchen to get a short ball that bounces in the kitchen, otherwise there is no good reason to hang out there during or after the point especially in the situation you just described. You probably hit the shot and thought you had perfect balance without any need to take a drastic action to stop your momentum so it was all good in your mind but it was also easier to just keep moving forward for a step, even though you knew you could stop if you had to and thus your partner makes the call which is the right call, he is trying to help you. FYI - if you or your partner hits a volley at the kitchen line and loses his balance and starts wind-milling trying to keep himself from falling/stepping forward it IS legal for the partner to physically pull him backwards to keep him from entering the kitchen or stepping on the line as long as the partner is not touching the line or in the kitchen himself.
Disagree with 3-C. Working the lines is a strategy for winning the game. Agree if team mates disagree it’s in. The reality in recreational play is that close line shots on the receiving end are going to be called out, so, if you play the lines like that be prepared for them to be called out 🤷♂️
Hi Pat, The reason we recommend not working the lines (not including singles) is that it's not a high percentage strategy. Players tend to remember the ones the hit in and often forget that they hit more of them out than actual winners. But to your point, if you do hit it close to a line, yes, expect it to be called out
You are correct, it also says that The opponent gets the benefit of the doubt on line calls made. Any ball that cannot be called “out” will be considered “in.” Our point is that in a friendly game it might be better to be happy then prove yourself right. If a replay resolves it and everyone leaves the game feeling better than take agency and do it.
We need🎉 to rely on monitoring cameras to track the in vs the out balls! Too many exceptions and not enough etiquette and respect for those on the opposing side.
The partner NOT trying to hit the ball should always watch closely and make the line call if they can. For sideline calls on your partner's side, you have a better side view and thus a better chance of seeing that sliver of space if it's out.
Another point.…. Like you I am focusing on a good return for balls very close to boundary lines. I hit it and may think it was out but not sure. If my partner does NOT call it ( bad angle for call or not paying attention) before it is played by opponent, I assume it is considered IN - unless my opponent voluntarily concede it was out right?
I really appreciate your videos. However, there is nothing in the rules about a replay unless it is an appeal to a referee. If you are just playing casually ok, but not during a tournament.
Please have a session or sessions on pickle ball etiquettes. I like to see a more harmonious playing culture . Let’s not kill each other out there. Please remember some of us who play the games for enjoyment not to put the other down!,
So hitting the ball which is just out but you don't want to take a chance on not hitting it but then calling it out once you hit it is allowed and the call stands? We played it that was. Sometimes it takes a brain a sec to figure out what you just saw and some of those balls are no soft shots which makes it a bit harder to make a quick call. When I think about this I think it would make it much easier if we just say if you hit it, it's in play. If you don't and call it out, then it's out. Doesn't that kind of take the guessing out of it? You don't know if it will land in or out which can be so close it really doesn't make a difference so you just play it and then there's no question.
You are right it takes the brain a minute to process so play the shot and then make the call. Nothing in the rule book says it has to be simultaneous;)
@@BetterPickleball I wonder if it would just be better if the ball is going out and just after it hits the floor and you play it then the play continues and no outcall can be made since you played it. I think this might take away that, is it in or out call.
It seems to me it should be bad practice to use terms that can be misunderstood. For example, if you think a shot is going out and you want to alert your partner, "leave it," or "no!" or similar expletive would be better practice than "out."
Agreed, but maybe even a better word is "BOUNCE it" in a lob situation. If playing doubles in a social group with a variety of experience, abilities and ratings "Leave it" might result in your partner stopping any effort to continue playing the point eliminating any chance to return the lob if it actually, unexpectedly lands in bounds. "Bounce it" says don't give up on the point but don't hit in the air...chase it down, let it bounce and then hit it or call it out if it lands out. In a hand battle at the kitchen or in the transition zone, yelling "out" is a quick decisive statement alerting your partner to your prediction of where the ball will land if your partner lets it go. That communication happens way before the ball lands so there is no confusion about it being a communication to the partner versus a final call on where the ball lands.
@@timhardman4764 I agree, Bounce it is better than leave it, and I will try to use that in the future, but the point remains that calling "out" before it actually is out, shouldn't be considered a good approach.
Since an out call cannot be made until the ball bounces, Rule 6.D.10. While the ball is in the air, if a player yells “out,” “no,” “bounce it,” or any other words to communicate to their partner that the ball may be out, it shall be considered player communication only and not considered a line call. Now, would it be more clear to use bounce it or leave it or no., sure but just to be clear it's not against the rules.
@@andreahorn3912 that's true, but my point is since it is a game and most players only play for fun. If not keeping score allows players to have more fun then they should consider not keeping score.
@@BetterPickleball I like to play for fun but yet I’m competitive at the same time so I do like to keep score! and I do say a lot “it’s only a game “ 😅 but at the end of the day, whether it’s win or lose, I usually forget the scores and remember the good shots I made!
It's time for the serving team to serve do they both have to be behind the line before they serve and behind the imaginary sidelines before either of them serve is the question. Ty
3d is me, and it causes me to play badly. I need to let it go. Someone recently said to me (in golf lol) none of us is that good that we should get upset about things. Truth
I watched a science show on PBC Indeed in our minds and eyesight each person has a different view of how the out balls are seen. Remember the internet dress that no one could see if the dress was blue or yellow. ( it was black) our brains try to adjust what we see. When a line call is incorrect and we miss reading the line call, Think about it. So when we say close enough in corn hole or horseshoes LOL just let it be if you're not sure about it when you are in rec gameplay.
Good video overall but I don't agree with "do overs" in most cases. I teach my students that the most important rule in Rec. pickleball is this: "It's just pickleball". Let it go, everyone makes bad calls and they even out in the end.
pickleball players still don't get it -- if it is not clearly out -- it is good -- and each team calls their own side. Another pet peeve about picklers - the just return balls anywhere with looking where it should go - even your own partner can do this scrapes it back and causes more chases: geeze look for who it goes to and hit it to them
Agency concept is totally taking competition away from the game. If one can't handle the heat of the game one shouldn't be playing it. One can totally keep friendships just if one respects the rules and the one that makes the call is accepted and you move on. Good idea, but I beg to differ "putting someone in a bad position" sounds weird to me. So where are they after you beat your best friend 11-0? Another idea is the team mate of the hitter also has an obligation to make the call because they will be able to see space or not. If the teammate doesn't make the call the hitter has to accept it as in....just part of the game. When the call is made accept it and move on, is the best advice for keeping friendships. And don't be a sore loser. 😉
if it's a friendly game and there is a discrepancy on a call, we just play it over...no sense making enemies over pickleball for no prizes or money....if I hit a ball that I know is out, I will call it as it happens...I am more upset with myself for missing the shot than wondering if they saw it in or out.....in a tourney though, I will leave it up to the other team as it is supposed to be called
Two things should be mentioned. If one player calls it out and the partner calls in, play stops and the ball is considered in. Also, a ball must be called out promptly. Promptly is defined in the rules as before the opponents hit the ball or the ball becomes dead.
From years of playing tennis, I am used to calling my own shot out on the other side of the court, if I clearly see it out, and my opponent has not made the call and instead played the next shot. However, occasionally when I do this when playing pickleball, my opponents get upset, saying that I cannot call the shot on their side of the court. I 100% agree that I should not call the ball IN on their side, but I see no problem with calling my or my partner's shot OUT. To me, this is very similar to calling a ball IN on your side unless you are certain that it is OUT. Both seem like good sportsmanship to me. Am i incorrect to do this?
If you are looking at it strictly from a rules point of view, Rule 6.D.1 says players are responsible for calling the lines on their end of the court. The rules also allow you to ask your opponents opinion if you so choose.
Rule 6.D.12 - Yes, the rules allow you to call your own shot out and ethically it is the "right thing" to do so you know you won or lost fair and square...no problems sleeping at night. From the 2023 Rule book - 6.D.12. After the completion of a rally, players may overrule a partner’s line call, an officiating team’s line call, or an opponent’s “in” call to their own disadvantage.
This is not so helpful because of repetition--the explanation changes slightly each time he repeats himself--and digression--which disturbs the listener's attention on the point he's making. Stop trying to cover every scenario and FOCUS, MAN!
I’ve only been playing for 2.5 years but line calls are the worst part of the game in my opinion. When I started playing better I was one of those that would question a call when I was sure the call was wrong. I’ve learned from then, if it is close I generally can’t be 100% sure it is out so I call it in. Keep in mind, I don’t play in tournaments, I just play for fun and exercise. Some people I play with want to win every game and sometimes get testy, but that’s their problem. I try to give the benefit of the doubt, it’s not life or death so in the big scheme of things, it doesn’t really matter. I think some of the issue with line calls is people forget this game isn’t tennis. A tennis ball compresses on impact and can clip a line as we see with electronic line calls today. Pickleballs don’t compress but I think people arguing the call from a distance, especially from the far side of the net not only see a different angle but forget the ball doesn’t compress and clip the line. However, if it is that close play it as ‘in’ and play on.
I think most players do their best to call the lines fairly. If I can see that there is a question about a call, I ask my opponents if they saw the call differently, and if they did I’ll change the call. I’ve done that in competitive play too if they are both very insistent, after all we all make mistakes. One other thing I do is to focus on what I can control. I can’t change their line calling so I stop hitting it so close to the line. ;)
Watching this again. I really liked the agency angle. One thing that would help many folks play a better game is to develop their sportsmanship.
that is true Nate!
Nice clarification. I was using the concept I employed in volleyball, that being the ball had to make contact with the line to be in. Your point is well taken in rec especially…. definitely out . And if we use the “saw space” guideline, even poorer angles can get correct calls.
Thanks for sharing!
I'm a volleyball referee, newly come to pickleball. So I thought that, as in volleyball (or tennis, I believe), pickleball's assessment of whether a ball was in or out would ask you to judge if the flattened part of the ball on the ground had physically touched the line. But pickleball seems to be saying that you can only call 'out' if you yourself saw daylight between the ball and the line. That's got to depend hugely on where your eyes were. Your partner, being further away, is in a much stronger position to call 'out' than the person playing the ball.
I'm a little confused about one thing about the rally described around the 5:00-6:00 minute mark. So Tony said his team was ultimately awarded the point (or side out or change of server) because the ref overruled the opponent and called it in. Is that the rule when an out call is reversed to in? They had continued to play after the out call and the opponents put away, so that's my conclusion.
Once the ball bounces and an out call is made by a team member the ball is now considered dead,. Any shots that happen after that are irrelevant. Their opponent made an out call before two more shots were hit. Those shots are irrelevant since the ball is dead. Tony appealed the out call to the ref who then reversed it, saying yes he saw the ball and it was in. That was why Tony and his partner won the rally.
Great video - thanks.
To your points:
3b - Replay. Another advantage is that you get to play one more rally.
3c - Agency. This reminds me of my personal rule to always aim down the middle on overheads so that when I miss by 8 feet (!) it is still in play and sometimes "great angle!"
3d - Distraction. Right. let it go. Don't lose two points on one 'bad' call.
Well said!
@@BetterPickleball Rule 6.C.3. says you cannot claim a replay if there is uncertainty
@@ct8409 you are correct that’s what the rule says but in a friendly game my suggestion is to either replay it or give the call to the other side. I feel it’s more important to keep the peace
Best explanation I've heard !
Thank you!
I appreciate your approach of coining Agency (hitter's decision/responsibility) and Playing to a Player's Leniency regarding bad close calls (cause we've all made them). I feel like the Rules are clear and if followed consistently Agency and Leniency are addressed. Allow me to explain:
First it is Important to distinguish between the two Standards; The Standard that Officials (Referees and Line Judges) are bound to vs Players (whether in a Tournament or Recreational Play). Officials are constantly STATIONARY and can therefore make more decerning calls on OUT balls they SEE!! Ironically Players are constantly moving, yet the Responsibility for Perimeter OUT Calls (unless there are line judges), CLEARLY stated in the Rulebook, rests on the Team on the End of the Court the ball Bounced on.
The Official's Standard is based solely on where the Base of the Ball Touches, AND are therefore only Overruled when the Official is absolutely certain where they Saw the Ball Land (your explanation may have blurred this distinction).
True any Ruling made by a Courtside Official may be Appealed to the Head Referee or TD. HOWEVER, unless the Referee made a Rule Interpretation Error, OR a decision that ALL the Players disagree with (which must have been the case in your example), That sort of Appeal will likely prove fruitless, and just further wastes Play Time and Interrupts the Flow of the game - so is NOT Recommended.
The Player's Standard on making an Out Call is explained in Pickleball Etiquette section of the Rules. Unless the Player Clearly Sees the ball as Out they should Consider the Ball as IN. Also in games without a Referee, Any Call made by a Team on their End should NOT be challenged by the Opponents and can be Appealed to the Referee if there is one (in which case the Referee's Decision is Final!).
The other options to relinquish the decision by asking the Opponents is of course an Option, is best only used between close friends, as you explained. However, without a Referee, following the Rules on Line Calling AND Not Even Considering Challenging another Team 's OUT Calls will naturally allow you to Focus on the more important Next Shot.
You might also want to address the proper mindset for Partners Overruling their Partner's Call to their own Team's Determent (so that They don't dwell on a Partner's bad call either; AND because other Player's won't want to Play with a Partner/Player with a Bad Reputation!!!).
Conclusion: Follow the Credo "HONESTY OVER LOYALTY!" Don't waste Everyone's Play Time by Arguing about Calls or even the Score! Keep playing and adjust later if necessary. More time Playing = more fun; any time arguing = wasted time (our most precious resource!!!!).
Thank you for your efforts to improve everyone's Pickleball.
Thank you and we agree don't waste everyone's play time arguing over calls
This was excellent and a keeper for me. I do wish you had mentioned the kitchen line and what is in and out of the kitchen.
The only time the NVZ line comes into play is on the serve. If the serve touches any part of the line it's a fault
Based on the same points and principles noted here, the player closest to the ball on the serve is in the best position to make the call in lieu of a referee who should be keenly watching the play at all times.
On Saturday I twice called against myself balls that the opponent had called in. I think they were a bit surprised by my honesty as nobody else seems to do this.
That situation could be handled in different ways depending if you are in recreational play or competitive play.
Right around 1:33 the magnet is placed on the left line, Tony says "that's not out' but magnet looks like its also touching the kitchen line. Would that be out on a serve?
If the ball hits the NVZ line on a serve it is out.
This is so awesome!! Thank you! I think everyone needs to hear this!
Glad it was helpful!
Amen to that!!! There are so many mis-calls it gets frustrating at times.
Great clarification Tony. My last question is this~ we stopped playing because our opponent called it out. The “out” caller reflexively returned the ball while calling it out ( it had bounced). Seconds later the partner called it in. They contended we had a chance to keep the ball in play and we should have returned it. However we stopped playing at the time the ball bounced and was called out. It seems the only thing to do is replay it?
Once the partner from the team on the other side of the net called the ball "in", (after his team mate called it out initially) the ball is now considered "IN" and its your point or their side out or their change of server...which ever applies. There can be no uncertainty when a IN or OUT call is made. Once there is uncertainty...a slow call after the ball is dead, or I "think" it was out, or a team mate making the opposite call as you described above, there is uncertainty and per the rule book, the other team who hit the shot is given the benefit of the doubt and the ball is played as "IN" bounds. There is no need to play the point over, you earned the point. You don't want to teach your opponents bad habits when it comes to line calling especially if you are dealing with a frequent "bad calls" opponent. If it's just fun social play and everyone is easy going and playing just to have fun rallies and don't really care much about who wins or losses you can offer to play it over but if you decide to do that it's a good idea to explain the rule and how it should be handled so that person knows when he is playing with other people what he should expect. Personally, on a hard fast shot to any of the sidelines my brain power allows me to optimize my concentration on either the ball path and body movements needed to hit the best return I possibly can OR to position myself to make an accurate IN or OUT call but not both. If I focus exclusively on making the correct call and the ball is IN, I might hit a very poor return because my primary focus is on making the call and not the best return shot. So if it's close, I decide ahead of time to focus everything on making a good return shot and if I realize a second after I have hit the ball that it was actually out I continue to play the point as though the ball was IN without saying anything. If I play the ball, the ball is considered IN regardless of whether it bounced IN or OUT. Sometimes my opponents will over rule me (to my advantage) saying the ball was out (to their disadvantage) and I will do the same if I clearly see my shot or my partner's shot was out after my opponents called it in.
Tim is correct. Once there was disagreement among the other team, the call was in and the rally was over
@@timhardman4764
So to clarify~we stopped play bc they called the ball out. But then they called it in. They contended that bc they changed the call from “out” to “in” we should have returned the ball the “out” caller reflexively hit back to us. It was too late for us to return it bc there was a time lag between the “in” and “out” call. So are you satung it became our point?
I agree with you on do-overs. I don’t think they are necessary with a very few exceptions. All the players on the court that day were at least 3.5 players and all with at least 3 years of experience. No newbies were present.
Thank you.
Excellent video Tony! The Agency in point 3C is a huge one I had not considered. I often find myself (as a beginner) aiming for lines as a way to get those close calls. But in reality I want to be hitting them just inside so there is 0 chance of disputing the earned point. By knowing going in that aiming for that line is going to yield some close calls I will definitely tweak to aim less at the line but that sweet spot that is undoubtably IN the line. As a result I'll still get some line calls but far less than right now. I love the idea of taking responsibility for shot placement because you're right. Partner, friend, or random opponent, you're forcing them into a spot that no one wants to be in. Arguing over judgement call line calls isn't why we play the game so making it happen less just makes sense.
Excellent realization
Thank you. I have a question: during a recent tournament, we hit back a return of serve to the side line on the service side. The receiver on that side immediately indicated in(tennis hand signal) and her partner on the opposite side, called it out. The receiver, then changed her call to agree with her partner, saying that she was moving so her partner probably saw it accurately. How do you handle a call change like that? Would this be considered “not clearly out” and presumed in?
If one partner calls it out and the other calls it in, it's in.
6.C.8. In doubles play, if one player calls the ball “out” and the partner calls it “in,” then doubt exists and the team’s call will be “in.” Any player may appeal a call to the referee. If the referee did not see the ball, the ball is considered in.
Great topic Tony. Thank you. I wish more people would accept the rule that the ball is in if you can't clearly determine it was out. So many players realize it might be out and they wanted it to be out so they say "I think it was out". I tell my partners all the time "I couldn't call it out". Some of them can accept that while others came from the "When in doubt, call it out" school.
Yeah that's a tough one. Haven't seen an instance when arguing over a line call is worth it.
Rule 6.C.3.
Awesome video and explanation! Thanks Big T!
You bet!
Clear concise information, spot on!
Glad it was helpful!
There are specific rules that govern when you can call a replay. It is important that beginners know and play by the rules. If you teach them it's ok to call a replay when the is a disagreement, they will use that option over and over instead of going by the actual rules that cover when a replay is allowed.
While you are correct players should strive to play by the rules and there are specific instances in which a replay is available as a source of remedy, the way the rules are currently written it is virtually impossible to know when a replay is appropriate and when it is not. Since most players, will primarily play in rec play situations a replay is an equitable offer to keep things friendly. Should a player choose to play in a tournament they should then strive to be more well versed in replay options.
@@BetterPickleball I absolutely agree with you, rec play should be more friendly as we are not in the PPA. I was in a rec tournament play and we did two replays during the game because of uncertainty and controversy. our opponents gave me and my partner a replay, and then when another controversy erupted, we did a replay for them. it all felt like the right thing to do
How do you handle this situation? A shot from my opponent lands near the base line on my side of the court, and my partner calls it Out immediately after it bounces. (According to your explanation, the play is now dead.) However, I immediately respond, "No it's good", and I play it with a winner up the middle. Although an "In" call overrides an "Out" call, my oppenents claim that they didn't try to return my shot, because they heard the "Out" call and stopped playing. That made perfect sense to me. I think we agreed that the "Out" call was a distraction, so we replayed the point. However, was that the correct call, or should my winner shot have counted for a point? Thanks
The minute your partner called it out the ball was dead. When you disagreed with the call the rally was won by your opponents. Whenever team members disagree on a call on their side the benefit of the doubt goes to their opponent.
Thank you fir this clarification. Very clear! Could you explain stacking…. How, where do players go if point isn’t won….. where to go if player wins the point…. If u stack on guest serve, must you continue stacking thru out the game, , etc. lots of confusion in this.
Here's a video that will help ua-cam.com/video/T7A2H73obJQ/v-deo.html
Thanks for the advice and clarification ‼️
No problem 👍
Thanks---nice explanation and advice
Glad it was helpful!
Off-topic request for future video:
How seniors should keep their movement and footing in proper form to prevent stumbling or falling backward.
In the past two weeks, I've seen two seniors stumble on the court and hurt their elbow, knee, and hip. I've also been involved in a near stumble, but I was able to stop myself from falling.
Thank you. I'll keep those suggestions in mind. In the meantime check out some of the footwork videos on the channel.
@@BetterPickleball I am age 72. I play mostly with seniors. I find too many seniors play with their feet too close together. Also, they stand straight up. This combination creates a high center of gravity. I encourage them to widen their base and lower their hips while keeping their head above their hips. (AKA: an athletic position.) I'm sure Tony has seen this and will be able to communicate a process to correct this stance.
@miketraywick9590 wow! Thank you. I definitely need help in this area of PB. I'm probably standing straight up as I'm so new to the sport.
@@miketraywick9590 agreed. There are multiple videos on both our channels about the ready position. In addition one of the biggest mistakes that leads to injury is players move backward to get a lob without turning their bodies perpendicular to the net
I’m 72, been playing for about 17 years. I agree with the other comments about players standing to upright and with their feet close together. Something else to consider is:
1. Is PB their only form of exercise? If so, they most likely have a limited range of flexibility and stability. Do they do any stretches to warm up their muscles before start of play?
2. They’re not wearing proper court shoes.
3. If they’re playing indoors, perhaps in a school or church gym, it’s possible the floor has sticky spots or areas which are slick.
Having said this, I fell soon after I learned the game. Fractured my right wrist and left elbow. A temporary net had been set up on an outdoor basketball court. The court had some cracked and buckled pavement. I don’t know if I tripped on a crack or my own feet. However, I returned to the game ASAP and now as a PB instructor at the YMCA….I am constantly reminding my students of ways to prevent injuries.
I have a question on the hindrance rule. Sometimes a player will get to the kitchen line and stand right on the half court line during a match and it seems like it’s particularly when the guys on a roll on the serving. In rec play, who gets to call the hindrance. I’ve had this happen, it really bothersome on my serve. So if you could answer that it would be appreciated because the rules are always set up with a referee and rec play. You don’t have a referee. So who again is allowed to call hindrance?
The first thing is to go to the rule book to define a hinder.
3.A.15. Hinder - Any transient element or occurrence not caused by a player that adversely impacts play, not including permanent objects. Examples include, but are not limited to, balls, flying insects, foreign material, players or officials on another court that, in the opinion of the referee, impacted a player’s ability to make a play on the ball.
Because the case you described is caused by another player it is not a hinder.
The other part of the rulebook that may fit is a distraction. Again let's go to the definition.
3.A.6. Distraction - Physical actions by a player that are ‘not common to the game’ that, in the judgment of the referee, may interfere with the opponent’s ability or concentration to hit the ball. Examples include, but are not limited to, making loud noises, stomping feet, waving the paddle in a distracting manner or otherwise interfering with the opponent’s concentration or ability to hit the ball.
Now, if the player stood in the service box and ran off to one side of the court once you started the service motion, a good case could be made that is a distraction. However, in this instance, you describe the player as "standing on the line center line." It would be pretty hard to make the case that behavior is 'not common to the game' as stated in the rule. (I personally stand very close to the center line for a variety of reasons
My advice would be to try to imagine a target right in the middle of the box and focus on that. If you miss more toward the center and hit him, that's a fault on the return team if it touches him before it hits the ground. If you miss toward the side line, having a target in the center should allow you enough room to keep it in bounds.
The first thing that comes to mind is the "nasty nelson". I tell my students that if the receivers partner makes a habit of crowding that line, I move over to change the path of my serve - if they are in the way - oh well. @@BetterPickleball
I like the video! I always heard your partner should call any ball under your feet, when you are looking strait down on the line? . Also what about appealing a call to their partner? When we have a match with our buddies, we talk about calls and the score. When you play open court, some people call anything close , out?
You have the best view of a ball that is under your feet. Your partner is further away and looking at an angle. But yes you can ask your partner what their call is but if you are at odds the call goes in favor of your opponents. I think it's great to confer with the other team. (according to the rules if you do their call stands). When a ball that's close to the line gets called out I look at what I can control. Since I can't control their call I stop hitting it so close to the line. 😂
Excellent explanation but I need more on the definition of out. Is it when the center point of the ball is outside the line when looking from down from a vertical position directly above the ball? Or is it out if even the edge of the ball is barely over the line when looking down from a from a vertical vantage point?
You can find all the additional support materials in Section 6 of the Rule book. betterpickleball.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/USA-Pickleball-Official-Rulebook-2023-v2-2.pdf
i returned the ball over the net and the spin caused it to come back over the net to my side. What is the rule? do I need to return it, or is it a point?
Your opponents could have reached over the net to play that shot. If they did not and it went untouched it was your point
What if the ball hits the ground, one player calls it out but the closer player continues to play the ball? Does the ball have to be called out by the closer player otherwise is it considered partner communication?
It does not have to be called out by the closet player and it doesn’t matter if the ball is played after an out call is made. However if the partners disagree and one calls it out and the other says it’s in, it’s in
Good video. We have a good group when we play, and there is never any real arguments about calls. There have been some controversial ones, but they haven't sullied our games; we just take them in stride. We usually err on the side of leniency (especially with newer or less advanced players), preferring to keep a rally going than to make sharp calls to gain or deny a point. That said, we are all very competitive and want to win, and don't give away points from not calling clearly "out" balls.
The "if you see space - then call it out" axiom works for me. Never thought about the agency aspect, but it makes sense. I like painting the line sometime, but always try to give myself a few inches for error - so it will be less likely to force a judgment. Replaying a point is ok, but I prefer not to get in that mode, because it diminishes the accepted opposition judgment for calls and delays the game. The only time we would replay (normally) is when a stray ball comes from another court AND affects the play.
In/out calls are probably at the top of the list when judging a game, but illegal serves and kitchen violations sometime creep up too - although the latter is usually self-policed pretty well in our games. And for the serves, if it isn't blatant or creating a clear advantage, we tend to let it go. Otherwise, I would call them out on it. Obviously, if you are teaching someone new to the game, you would correct them (and maybe give them a couple of serve attempts to get it right).
Sounds like you probably have an enjoyable group to play with. They understand how to be helpful and create a fun and competitive environment.
@@BetterPickleball we do, and the age range is 20 to 70, and we all intermingle and play with and against each other. Constantly amazed at how great a shape some of the older ladies are in.
Re: what is out? Saw a recent video on this and the bottom line was: if you could look down on the ball and any part of it was over the line the ball is in. But because the ball doesn’t compress like a tennis ball no part of the ball has to actually touch the line. True or false? Very fine line, I know!
Also, I’ve played for 15 years and have always heard there is no such thing as a replay. As a mediator, I like your compromise proposal for fun play!
Those line calls are just so hard to call when they are close enough to look on the line but the bottom of the ball may not be touching. I recommend calling it in if you cannot see space between the ball and the line and moving onto the next point!
What if one player calls it out but the partner says they didn't see it? I would think that is out, but some players interpret that as a disagreement hence in.
If you and your partner can not call it out definitely, then it is considered in.
Should the receiving team defer to the person not hitting the ball as they are not focused on the return?
If it's helpful great but they may or may not be in the best position to make the call
If a ball is clearly going out, say a foot from the line and a person yells out before it hits the ground and then stops it with their raquet,if the other team made the shot and was serving is it their point?
if a player calls the ball out before it hits the ground it is considered player communication.
Enjoyed your video, especially your comments on the concept of agency. I'd like to suggest a common occurrence you might include in that section. In the situation, as you described it, the person I directed the shot to is in the absolute best position to make the call. I will take their call all day long. If they want a sanity check, the only person in a position to give it is my partner based on his vantage point.
The person least able to provide a useful observation is his partner, on the other side of the court. Given the size of the ball and the acute angle of his view, for that player to see space between line and ball, the the out would have to be obvious to everyone else. And yet, I see people making line calls from the other side of the court all the time.
You make a great point Alan. It's important to remember that the out call rules are written in a manner to give all doubts or uncertainty to our opponents.
Great Job, everyone needs to review and be reminded of their actions.
Glad you found it helpful
What is you served and the ball touches the middle line! That’s in or out?
In
On the serve if the ball touches the center line, the side line or base line it is considered in. If it touches the NVZ line, it is considered a fault.
Very helpful discussion, Tony. I have a question for you that I've not encountered before in recreational doubles. I was receiving serve and my partner was up at the kitchen line. I clearly saw the ball go wide of the center line and saw blue court between the ball and the line. I called it out immediately but I also returned the ball because I was preparing for it to be in the court. Everyone stopped playing at that point. However, my partner (who did not have an appropriate view of the line call because she was behind the ball) said she thought the ball hit the line. I explained to her that from my angle, I could clearly see the court color between the ball and the center line. Therefore, I was very certain the ball was out. She kept insisting that she saw the ball on the line. Long story short, she said we have to give them the point because we disagreed on the call. But, in my view, she should not have been making the call to begin with. Also, because we all got so distracted, everyone forgot that I actually returned the ball back into the court. Therefore, we should have replayed the point with the disputed call, right? But because my partner and I took so long discussing the call, the other team said let's just do rock, paper, scissors and whoever wins gets the point. By that point, I had tuned out and just wanted to move forward. But, in your view, how should doubles teams handle these kinds of calls?
In this instance your partner is correct, if there is a disagreement between partners the call goe in favor of your opponents.
@@BetterPickleball Wow, even though I returned the ball in, we still lose the point and don't get the benefit of replaying the point?
@@sashagirl357 in rec play games often a replay is a great solution when there is a dispute between opponents. However, in this instance the rule is clear 6.D.8. In doubles play, if one player calls the ball “out” and the partner calls it “in,” then doubt exists and the team’s call will be “in.”
Thanks but I really don't understand 3a. If two people close to the ball have different perspectives and one sees space between the line and the ball but the other person doesn't see space because of their perspective, why doesn't the person with the best view get to call it out?
A couple of things in the framework of the rules. We only call the lines on our side of the court and our calls should favor our opponents if in doubt. Should my partner make the call if they have a better view, yes. Can we ask our opponents to make the call, yes we can do that too. In general it's best not to get to hung up on the call but to do what you think is right.
I am new to the game and would like some clarification on what is considered the field of play. A pickleball is approx 2.75" in diameter. If it touches the court at a point 1" outside the line, the ball is still within the verticle plane of the court. So my question is: how are the dimensions of the court defined? By point of contact or when it crosses the vertical place of the courts line.
By the way, I forgot to say how much your videos have helped me understand the game. Thank you!
@@AndyWilkeSr Per this video and the current Rules book, to make an "OUT" call, you must see a "gap", or a space between the edge of the pickle ball and the white line. If from your viewpoint, the edge of the yellow ball is overlapping the white line or just touching it, the ball is IN....even though the actual contact point of the ball on the playing surface may be OUT. Unlike Tennis balls, the pickle ball has very little compression so it does not flatten out when it contacts the court after a hard shot allowing that contact patch to expand over the line. It's just un-workable to ask every pickle ball player at every level to make an estimate of how big the contact patch was on the close line calls so to eliminate those subjective calls, the contact patch is no longer used to call a ball in or out. If any part of the ball is hanging over or on the same vertical plane as the outside edge of the sideline, the ball is IN. Whatever the color is of the out of bounds court, you must be able to see at least a sliver of that color between the yellow ball and the white line to call the ball OUT.
Glad that you have found them helpful and welcome to pickleball. Tim is correct you need to see a gap or a space between the line and the ball.
I agree with every part of this video! I just had a similar situation yesterday, and it caused me a lot of distress😮 (I’m only human)…I was served to, and the ball landed on my partner’s side of the court. I was 3 feet from the back line and standing near the middle line, so I saw it. My partner, on the other hand, was not near enough to the line to make a judgment. The other team thought that the ball was in and even after my partner said she was not sure, they did not default to me. They defaulted to themselves, and said they would not accept my call but only play the point over. So many times I have offered to other players let’s do the point over if I was unsure, but when I’m sure I don’t think the other team has the right to demand the point be played over. I usually go for leniency, but honestly, I felt there was a bit of bullying going on in this situation (as well as other times with this particular woman), so did not agree to the point being played over. How would you have handled the situation? One can say this is just “community” play but I do feel that we should try to stick to the rules as much as possible.
It's situational. If it's a tournament and I believe I was correct I would stick with my call. If the other team was absolutely adamant and my partner was unsure I may chose to reverse it. If it was rec play I would give them the points. Especially in rec play, I ask myself, would you rather be right or be happy? Because one call is not going to win or lose the game and a win or a loss really isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things.
Great job of clarifying "when is out" and handling "out call disagreements". However, I respectfully ask how you can demonstrate "what is out" with a flat disk. A sphere meets a flat plane at a point. Even allowing for compression and slide of the ball as it hits the surface, any ball viewed from directly above or directly down the line that appears more than half out never touches the line. I believe you would call these balls "in" even though a low angle view from my height challenged partner with great visual acuity on the opposite side of the court might see the green. Perhaps we're making lots of bad calls?
Thanks for the suggestion. Next time we do an out ball video we will see what we can do
What is the etiquette when someone calls the ball out before it has landed?
In order for it to be an out call the call can't be made until the ball lands.
Excellent video. Something I wish you had spent a little more time on is what happens when the ball has landed, and was called out but also hit at roughly the same time and play continued (perhaps due to the mixed message of the call and subsequent hit). What I gather from your video is play should stop, and if it continues should be disregarded because the ball has been called out and is therefore dead.
You're correct and there seems to be some confusion around this. Once the ball lands and is called out it's considered dead and any play that happens after that is irrelevant. Thanks for the suggestion. You might find it in a future video.
Especially for balls close to the 'long-axis' lines (i.e.sidelines and midlines - not 'cross' lines), the best perspective/judgement is often from the opponent who might have "direct line of sight" e.g. down a specific sideline.
It is very appropriate (when the two team members are unsure or who differ on the 'call' of the ball 'in or 'out') to sometimes ask the line-of sight opponent: "Did you see that ball?".
This provides respect to the opponent, removes conflict, facilitates the progress of the game. And sometimes the opponent will call the ball in your favor. (Of course, one must accept the opponent's call, if he/she is confident of seeing the ball as "in" or "out"). Nothing to lose here - much to gain.
By the way, there is NOTHING wrong or inappropriate in placing the ball near the lines in the opponents' court. It is part of the game. So, your ideas here are incomprehensible and just plain wrong.
Appreciate your perspective, not every player is flexible about line calls.. The rule book covers what happens when two team members disagree, the call goes in favor or your opponent. I don't think I said there was something inapposite or wrong about putting the ball near the lines, just that if you do be willing to accept the call that is given.
This is a really good video, recently I called a ball out that was close to the line that my opponent (a friend) had hit. when I made the call, she argued with me and I told her it was not her call to make. because she started arguing I did not back down on my call, instead I stood by my call even though it did look a bit iffy. I said later we can all make mistakes on calls, but we should never let the opponents argue or make the call when we have not asked their input. I had another experience in a recreational tournament where I hit a ball that I thought was partially on the line but my partner called it out. The opponent started arguing right away but we had not asked for her input. My partner replayed the point but after the match, she got mad at me for not backing her up. I told her that an argument ensued and then there was a replay and there was no time for me to interject because things happened so fast. Plus my partner did not ask me what I thought in the middle of the game and they replayed it anyway. all of this is happening in rec play between friends and it is annoying 🤦♀️ The bottom line is, opponents should never start arguing or try to commandeer the call when they have not been asked for input! Any thoughts are welcome
Yes, it's not the opponents place to make a call on my side of the court, but if they feel strongly about it, especially in a rec play situation I reverse it immediately. The person is always more important than an L or W. In a tournament, I've also reversed calls. In that situation I consult with my partner first.
very helpful! thank you
I like that “agency” theory. I tell my students if you don’t like the way your opponent making those calls, then stop aiming at the lines 😅
Exactly! Control the controlables😀
Great video - simple, direct and not full of distracting digital frufaw. I do disagree with the concept of "replay" to save friendships. As far as I can tell, the only 'replays" allowed in the current iteration of the rules is "body or ball" on court (made subject to the players on the courts' call - new ruling I don't agree with) or when the ball drops over the net and hits the cross bar. There are no more "net serves" - didn't agree with that new rule - I understand why it was changed, but, making the net a 5th player during the serve doesn't add to the game, IMO. What I do like immensely is the new rules for the call of "in and out" balls - which this video does an excellent job of addressing and making very clear what those new rules are - however - giving players the option to "replay" in the "spirit" of friendship kind of puts the game into the "backyard badminton and beers" mindset - anything goes as long as we are all having fun. I teach beginners and I tell my students what the rules are, make the best call you (and your partner) can - then live with the guilt if you are still agonizing over the call - we all do that. Getting players away from the "all calls are resolved by just replaying" was a hard thing to do. The "game" includes making snap decisions that you have to own - it is integral to the play of the game. If, like you point out, I hit a ball down the sideline and it isn't clearly in, looks to me like it hit the line but the opponent calls it out - I can scream, gnash my teeth, pout, question their need for glasses or an understanding of the new rules - but - according to the new rule there is no option for a do-over to save someone's' feelings about the tough call they just made. It is hard enough to get new players just learning the game (and sometimes is their first experience with any sort of competitive interaction with other people) to loudly and confidently make a "OUT" ruling "IMMEDIATELY". They look around to see if they did it right - if it is obviously a good call, everyone smiles and play continues, but, if it is close, you can see who the alpha type of players are - even in beginning classes - they are the ones that will not go quietly into the night over a close call - and - will stop to ask the teacher if the call by the other person was made correctly - a subtle form of intimidation. It is a slippery slope to go back to the time when players could just bully other players into replaying a point because they didn't like the call or win the point - replay is not like TV replay - it is never the same play - just gives a player another bite at the apple.
I hear what you are saying about replays as sort of a last resort, but, I think it just allows for player abuse the way it use to be - but no one wants to admit it is/was true - thank you again for the great video.
You're welcome
Thanks, good piece. We all get wrapped up in a bad call and it is distracting. Better to move on. I have an member of my club that often calls things in his favor, but otherwise is a good person and a good player. Oh well! Rather play with the occasional bad call than not play at all.
You have a healthy perspective on calls and the game!
Great Video
Glad you enjoyed it
In our friendly matches, if there is a disagreement on a call (in or out), the assumption is that the player closer to the ball has a better view of it and that player makes the call. (ball is on your side, you make the call.) Otherwise, you'd better have a ref. It works since that is our home rule - no discussion.
We do the same thing. It's crazy how many players argue over line calls. During a tournament two players almost came to blows over a call. 😯
When is “Communication “between partners a distraction? A foul?
This is the definition of distraction- Distractions. Players may not distract an opponent when the opponent is about to play the ball. As an example if you were to yell something to your partner just before your opponent hit the ball that could be considered a distraction
good video. I had this happen if you want to address it? I was called for a foot fault by my partner. This is what happened,I hit a ball in the air, returning it down the middle line, and it hit the court, bounced through the court, out the back, hit the fence and dropped to the ground. At that point, I stepped forward to return to the base line. My feeling was that my momentum had stopped before stepping. ?? It's not a big deal to me just wondered what the book says.
if the hitting back motion has stopped, supposedly you can step in the kitchen.., but you may not realize the time between that is too short to think the motion stopped.
Great question. Rule 3.A.20 says The act of volleying produces momentum that ends when the player regains balance and control of their motion or stops moving toward the non-volley zone. In short if you had regained your balance and stepping into the NVZ was not as a result of momentum from the shot then there was no fault.
"At that point, I stepped forward to return to the base line" - it sounds like you stepped forward to stop your forward momentum and then turned around to return to the base line. If facing South and you want to go North, most people don't take another step South before turning around to go North unless they are being carried by their momentum. If your partner corrected you (at your team's expense) I'm pretty sure he was trying to help you with a bad habit and he believed your body's momentum carried you over the kitchen line; or he was letting you know, even if you did establish a balanced position after completing the shot, you were giving the appearance of entering the kitchen illegally and you should be aware of this appearance and not form this bad habit. There is no good reason to step forward after hitting the type of shot you described (except to regain balance) and if you are aware of how close you are to the kitchen line most players are actively making sure they control their balance after the shot by reducing body movement and momentum and using only an "arm" swing in this situation so they don't accidentally have to step into the kitchen to keep standing. The Ball is Never Dead with this type of fault. After hitting that shot, you could be on the edge of the line, windmilling with your arms trying to regain your balance without touching the white line or steeping forward for 30 seconds or a minute and the point is still alive until you establish balance without touching the white line or entering the kitchen. You must step back and away from the line if fighting for your balance no matter how long it takes...the point is still live until you back up away from the line or establish without any doubt you are balanced and relaxed and not fighting for balance in your current position and again....after establishing your balance there is no reason to step forward into the kitchen or on the kitchen line at the end of this type of point. You only go into the kitchen to get a short ball that bounces in the kitchen, otherwise there is no good reason to hang out there during or after the point especially in the situation you just described. You probably hit the shot and thought you had perfect balance without any need to take a drastic action to stop your momentum so it was all good in your mind but it was also easier to just keep moving forward for a step, even though you knew you could stop if you had to and thus your partner makes the call which is the right call, he is trying to help you. FYI - if you or your partner hits a volley at the kitchen line and loses his balance and starts wind-milling trying to keep himself from falling/stepping forward it IS legal for the partner to physically pull him backwards to keep him from entering the kitchen or stepping on the line as long as the partner is not touching the line or in the kitchen himself.
Yes, exactly 🤪
Glad you liked it
Maybe the best explanation of in or out calls in the game and how to take responsibility for your own actions. Very nice Toney.
Glad it was helpful!
You failed to mention that during a serve the ball must be over, not touching any part of the front line!
That is indeed a fault, if the ball touches the NVZ line on the serve.
Good video
Glad you enjoyed
Disagree with 3-C. Working the lines is a strategy for winning the game. Agree if team mates disagree it’s in. The reality in recreational play is that close line shots on the receiving end are going to be called out, so, if you play the lines like that be prepared for them to be called out 🤷♂️
Hi Pat, The reason we recommend not working the lines (not including singles) is that it's not a high percentage strategy. Players tend to remember the ones the hit in and often forget that they hit more of them out than actual winners. But to your point, if you do hit it close to a line, yes, expect it to be called out
Rule 6.C.3. says you cannot claim a replay if there is uncertainty
You are correct, it also says that The opponent gets the benefit of the doubt on line calls made. Any ball that cannot be called “out” will be considered “in.” Our point is that in a friendly game it might be better to be happy then prove yourself right. If a replay resolves it and everyone leaves the game feeling better than take agency and do it.
Hit it to me... I don't want to have to make a close call🤔😂
You were very close to the NVZ line, that's where you're supposed to be...
and there are many close calls!
Please print! Handwritten “Agency” is not legible. (“Video: Take #2.”)
That is printing 😂
We need🎉 to rely on monitoring cameras to track the in vs the out balls! Too many exceptions and not enough etiquette and respect for those on the opposing side.
That would be nice!
The partner NOT trying to hit the ball should always watch closely and make the line call if they can. For sideline calls on your partner's side, you have a better side view and thus a better chance of seeing that sliver of space if it's out.
@@Skyhi106 yes it's very helpful to have your partner assist with line calls
The lines are out there to hit . Jimmy Conners
Yes, but you better be precise, especially on the return side. :)
Another point.…. Like you I am focusing on a good return for balls very close to boundary lines. I hit it and may think it was out but not sure. If my partner does NOT call it ( bad angle for call or not paying attention) before it is played by opponent, I assume it is considered IN - unless my opponent voluntarily concede it was out right?
Yes Gerry you are correct.
I really appreciate your videos. However, there is nothing in the rules about a replay unless it is an appeal to a referee. If you are just playing casually ok, but not during a tournament.
A replay is a great way to diffuse any issues during Rec play. If you are playing a tournament that’s different
Please have a session or sessions on pickle ball etiquettes. I like to see a more harmonious playing culture . Let’s not kill each other out there. Please remember some of us who play the games for enjoyment not to put the other down!,
Agree, hopefully you have a group that plays to have fun together out on the court
So hitting the ball which is just out but you don't want to take a chance on not hitting it but then calling it out once you hit it is allowed and the call stands? We played it that was. Sometimes it takes a brain a sec to figure out what you just saw and some of those balls are no soft shots which makes it a bit harder to make a quick call. When I think about this I think it would make it much easier if we just say if you hit it, it's in play. If you don't and call it out, then it's out. Doesn't that kind of take the guessing out of it? You don't know if it will land in or out which can be so close it really doesn't make a difference so you just play it and then there's no question.
You are right it takes the brain a minute to process so play the shot and then make the call. Nothing in the rule book says it has to be simultaneous;)
@@BetterPickleball I wonder if it would just be better if the ball is going out and just after it hits the floor and you play it then the play continues and no outcall can be made since you played it. I think this might take away that, is it in or out call.
It seems to me it should be bad practice to use terms that can be misunderstood. For example, if you think a shot is going out and you want to alert your partner, "leave it," or "no!" or similar expletive would be better practice than "out."
Agreed, but maybe even a better word is "BOUNCE it" in a lob situation. If playing doubles in a social group with a variety of experience, abilities and ratings "Leave it" might result in your partner stopping any effort to continue playing the point eliminating any chance to return the lob if it actually, unexpectedly lands in bounds. "Bounce it" says don't give up on the point but don't hit in the air...chase it down, let it bounce and then hit it or call it out if it lands out. In a hand battle at the kitchen or in the transition zone, yelling "out" is a quick decisive statement alerting your partner to your prediction of where the ball will land if your partner lets it go. That communication happens way before the ball lands so there is no confusion about it being a communication to the partner versus a final call on where the ball lands.
@@timhardman4764 I agree, Bounce it is better than leave it, and I will try to use that in the future, but the point remains that calling "out" before it actually is out, shouldn't be considered a good approach.
Since an out call cannot be made until the ball bounces, Rule 6.D.10. While the ball is in the air, if a player yells “out,” “no,” “bounce it,” or any other words to communicate to their partner that the ball may be out, it shall be considered player communication only and not considered a line call. Now, would it be more clear to use bounce it or leave it or no., sure but just to be clear it's not against the rules.
When I am playing rec I'll say we're not playing for beer or money. It's only a game. Your point.
I like that response! Going to steal it Jeff
"It's only a game" is sooo overused in pickleball. Why bother keeping score then? 🤔
@@skiitax8 most players would probably enjoy it more if they didn't keep score
@@andreahorn3912 that's true, but my point is since it is a game and most players only play for fun. If not keeping score allows players to have more fun then they should consider not keeping score.
@@BetterPickleball I like to play for fun but yet I’m competitive at the same time so I do like to keep score! and I do say a lot “it’s only a game “ 😅
but at the end of the day, whether it’s win or lose, I usually forget the scores and remember the good shots I made!
It's time for the serving team to serve do they both have to be behind the line before they serve and behind the imaginary sidelines before either of them serve is the question. Ty
Only the server needs to be behind the baseline and inside imaginary extensions of the side and center lines at the point of contact with the ball
3d is me, and it causes me to play badly. I need to let it go. Someone recently said to me (in golf lol) none of us is that good that we should get upset about things. Truth
That's true!
I watched a science show on PBC Indeed in our minds and eyesight each person has a different view of how the out balls are seen. Remember the internet dress that no one could see if the dress was blue or yellow. ( it was black) our brains try to adjust what we see. When a line call is incorrect and we miss reading the line call, Think about it. So when we say close enough in corn hole or horseshoes LOL just let it be if you're not sure about it when you are in rec gameplay.
I agree Raymond, always five the benefit of the doubt to the other team
Good video overall but I don't agree with "do overs" in most cases. I teach my students that the most important rule in Rec. pickleball is this: "It's just pickleball". Let it go, everyone makes bad calls and they even out in the end.
The reason we suggest the do over is that it's a simple way to smooth any ruffled feathers.
When I used to play tennis the rule was if you did not see the ball clearly out then it was in.
Same rule applies here.
pickleball players still don't get it -- if it is not clearly out -- it is good -- and each team calls their own side. Another pet peeve about picklers - the just return balls anywhere with looking where it should go - even your own partner can do this scrapes it back and causes more chases: geeze look for who it goes to and hit it to them
Yes, if you can't clearly see it out, it's in
That’s adjustment to make coming from tennis.
Yes, it is different. Welcome to pickleball!
Agency concept is totally taking competition away from the game. If one can't handle the heat of the game one shouldn't be playing it. One can totally keep friendships just if one respects the rules and the one that makes the call is accepted and you move on.
Good idea, but I beg to differ "putting someone in a bad position" sounds weird to me. So where are they after you beat your best friend 11-0?
Another idea is the team mate of the hitter also has an obligation to make the call because they will be able to see space or not. If the teammate doesn't make the call the hitter has to accept it as in....just part of the game.
When the call is made accept it and move on, is the best advice for keeping friendships. And don't be a sore loser. 😉
Great advice :)
if it's a friendly game and there is a discrepancy on a call, we just play it over...no sense making enemies over pickleball for no prizes or money....if I hit a ball that I know is out, I will call it as it happens...I am more upset with myself for missing the shot than wondering if they saw it in or out.....in a tourney though, I will leave it up to the other team as it is supposed to be called
Great perspective Brian!
Two things should be mentioned. If one player calls it out and the partner calls in, play stops and the ball is considered in.
Also, a ball must be called out promptly. Promptly is defined in the rules as before the opponents hit the ball or the ball becomes dead.
Thanks for the suggestion
From years of playing tennis, I am used to calling my own shot out on the other side of the court, if I clearly see it out, and my opponent has not made the call and instead played the next shot. However, occasionally when I do this when playing pickleball, my opponents get upset, saying that I cannot call the shot on their side of the court. I 100% agree that I should not call the ball IN on their side, but I see no problem with calling my or my partner's shot OUT. To me, this is very similar to calling a ball IN on your side unless you are certain that it is OUT. Both seem like good sportsmanship to me. Am i incorrect to do this?
If you are looking at it strictly from a rules point of view, Rule 6.D.1 says players are responsible for calling the lines on their end of the court. The rules also allow you to ask your opponents opinion if you so choose.
Rule 6.D.12 - Yes, the rules allow you to call your own shot out and ethically it is the "right thing" to do so you know you won or lost fair and square...no problems sleeping at night. From the 2023 Rule book -
6.D.12. After the completion of a rally, players may overrule a partner’s line call, an officiating team’s line call, or an opponent’s “in” call to their own disadvantage.
This is not so helpful because of repetition--the explanation changes slightly each time he repeats himself--and digression--which disturbs the listener's attention on the point he's making. Stop trying to cover every scenario and FOCUS, MAN!
Hello Jeffrey. I think there were different scenarios being covered but appreciate the feedback. Take care.
Give your opponents a benefit of doubt. If the ball is close to the line and you're not sure don't call out.
exactly!