The performers of Keqrops was (if you still interested) - Claudio Abbado, Roger Woodward and the Mahlerjugendorchester, live performance from the Wienerkonzerthaus, October, 1992. At the time of upload I didn't know the performers nor I was able to find any.
Good to see a video on Xenakis (one of THE greatest composers of all time, period) but I think you overplayed the mathematical side (which has more relevance to his work between aprox 1955-1972) and downplayed the majority of his mature work. His career can be sliced quite nicely into three periods, one being based around architecture and science-influence aesthetics, the second period being his golden-age, where artistic influence switched to Greek Mythology, Platonism and his music started reflecting back on how he followed in the Stravinsky/Varese/Messiaen lineage - then the third period, where his music slowed down more and took on a slightly austere approach to what he had explored in the second period. His really, really early available works (pre-Metastasis), show what he was initially planning or prophesying to become as a composer ("The greek Bartok" in his words, or greek Varese). That first period reflects his growth and explorations to lead him to become what he set out to be. The first period doesn't represent him at his strongest (but it does feature Oresteia, which is a major hinting from him and is a work "testing the waters") but they are innovative, science, architecture and mathematics where really big things for him, coming out of WW2, so it's natural that he saw his own musical growth within Scientific development. Once he had risen to truly encapsulate "Xenakis" in the mid 70s, his music drifted directly into Greek Mythology, Philosophy, Mysticism and raw human emotion. I think most people (even Xenakis fans themselves) don't conceive of this, as there is that tendency to only see the superficial and ignore the more relevant subtext (for varying reasons). I enjoyed your video but I wish you had dug into the core of Xenakis' work (which is extraordinary), which is far, far more than maths - though I like that you tackled the political aspect.
This is the first time I'm hearing about a non-mathematical Xenakis, and while I don't doubt that he branched out and incorporated things other than math and architecture into his style as time went by, I saw no reason to think, during my assembling of the script for this video, that he ever moved away from using it as a baseline for his other compositional processes. For instance, the post-1972 tape pieces that were the output of his computer programs may not be as intrinsically and deeply mathematical as, say, _Nomos Alpha_ or a piece of that ilk, but it seems to me, upon hearing them and learning about the compositional processes that fed them, that he was still thinking in terms of what he had laid out in _Formalized Music._ Are there any publications (or academic articles) about late Xenakis that you would recommend?
Seconding (three years later, lol) Classical Nerd's request for publications/articles about late Xenakis that delve into the points you made in this comment. Very curious to learn more! Thanks.
Very interesting talk. Xenakis is a very intriguing composer and after a bit of "effort" I discovered I do like/appreciate his music. He did create some really fascinating sound worlds.
Messian taught Luc Ferrari too... As compelling as his instrumental music is , his Concrete pieces my favorites. I feel that medium suits his architectural aptitude in a very compact and economic style vis a vis instrumentals
Stellar work! Really appreciated the video. Xenakis helped me through some rough days. My favourite acoustic piece is "Rebonds B" (1987-1989) and my favourite electronic composition is "Orient-Occident" (1960). To newcomers, I can't recommend enough the compilation album "Electronic Music (1957-1992)". It was my first encounter with IX and it reconfigured my whole mind irreversibly (for the better). That album was such my challenge and my addiction at the same time, and many were the late nights I put on my headphones and took a walk to tumble through those tracks, trying to wrap my head around them. Xenakis makes me sweat, and never fails to inspire. Amazing channel overall! For a request, may I suggest a future video on Henri Pousseur? :)
I'm not sure if you actually perform , but you certainly are spot on in the historical end!!!!! Thanks for all of what you do to make this information available to musicians, and non-musicians alike!!!
Thank you! I'm primarily a composer; I backed into musicology because it's a related, relevant, and interesting subject. I try to keep up my skills as a performer (piano, organ, a smattering of Balinese instruments), but it's not my main focus.
I find it interesting that you said he said the goal was to be more scientific with how music is composed, because his soundscapes are very philosophical to me, in nature. I mean, they scream against what can be considered "music", "art", "skill", etc. They bite at established norms deriding dissonance. They are the echoes of the universe, if it had them, as I can metaphorically put it. Some of his pieces could be considered, like "Particle Physics, the Musical", for freaks' sake. Anyways, enjoyed your video, and... yeah, uprising of the people against establishment-pretty vague description-but I imagine that can still happen, oh yes, quite soon indeed.
I was a little surprised that Ligeti didn't like Xenakis's music and Copeland invited him to teach. I've always loved the music of all three but my respect for Copeland grew even greater.
The Idmen pieces reference the Balinese sound-world very clearly. Arguably Claviers from Pleiades does too, though it predates his travels there lol. Peace
I would offer a slight correction. He was indeed influenced by his study of the pelog scale found in gamelan music. He combined it with his “pitch sieve” theory. This can be heard most clearly in his percussion masterpiece Pleiades. Even though he actively fought against being influenced by other composers’ works, to the point of avoiding new music concerts in his latter years.
Great video as always. I was wondering is there any good composition books for a beginner? (I have fairly good theory foundation but just want something that is more on applying it compositionally).
If there's one out there, I haven't found it. Generally composition is done on a one-on-one basis with a teacher or professor because it's such a personalized and individual thing.
I see your point, though my piano teacher doesn't really seem to offer much in that field. I don't see composition teachers in the local area either. Only real option I know of is a composition course at university, but even that has been stopped now.
mobius drummer there is an orchestration UA-camr called "Orchestration Online" but he is more specialized on composing and arranging for orchestra, and also on a more advanced level sometimes... but i still recommend having a look there. Especially his "Massive Open Online Orchestration Course (MOOOC)", which is about composing for string instruments, is a very helpful guide for all kinds of composers, from beginner to pro. Sometimes there also are tips for composing and composers in general too.
i know there's a queue for the great composers series but panayiotis kokoras is an amazing greek living composer and is worth checking. i will love a horatiu radulescu's analysis too. thank you for your videos :)
Living composers are beyond the scope of the _Great Composers_ series because you really can't put them in a proper historical context. However, I hope you'll be pleased to learn that I covered Rădulescu in August of last year: ua-cam.com/video/D5YBgfxWDYo/v-deo.html
Carter and Babbitt have been added to the enormous request pool, but Wuorinen is not on account of the fact that the _Great Composers_ series is limited to composers whose careers are over, and any living composer by definition has an ongoing career.
The Soviets didn’t back up the Greek communists as per The Percentages Agreement, Yugoslavia backed up the Greek communists and as a result the tensions between Yugoslavia and The Soviet Union increased
Nobody really backed up Greek communists, and what's more Xenakis wasn't injured during a battle but during a British bombing on a peaceful protest, which triggered the Greek civil war.
Charles Rosen said that he did not find Xenakis's music interesting. To be fair, Rosen said that he recognized Messiaen as a great composer but was put off by his music's "unctuous piety".
Xenakis did return to Greece after the collapse of the fascist military junta in 1974. And twice i have been in performances of his music which took place under his presence and direction.
al margen de lo que dices sobre el pensamiento musical de Xenakis, sorprende tu caracterizacion política de la época joven de I.X. Señalás con cierto sarcasmo el espíritu antifacista de los comunistas griegos pero no hay ningún comentario crítico sobre la monarquia griega o las injerencias británicas en asuntos externos (colonialismo?) y eso me remite a la injerencia del FMI en la política griega en los últimos años. se puede tener una mirada política de izquierdas y a la vez crítico del totalitarismo soviético. Puedes ser menos maniqueista.
🎶His name is Xenakis, pronounced with an ah-chis! Mr. Classical nerd, you better not botch-this! We're getting sarcastic, 'cause his music's stochastic, And I can say that I'm super excited to watch-this!🎶 i'm not 100% confident pronunciation on the pronunciation btw but just go with it
13:00 -ish.... sorry, but saying Xenakis is "almost diametrically opposed" to Copeland, and implying it was an amazing note-worthy exception for Copeland to extend such an invitation to Xenakis is VERY misleading. I'm no Copeland scholar- but, from what I've heard from anecdotal stories from multiple sources, (and I've never seen any evidence to contradict this) Copeland both loved atonal music, wrote 12-tone music himself, and from anecdotal things I've heard from people who knew him, have relayed to me that Copeland may have much rather have been known for his atonal music and a "serious" composer rather than for his "Americana" music, which, from what I understand, on a certain academic and intellectual level, he was not very satisfied that that music was what he (Copeland) was known for. In fact, David Loeb, a composer I've studied with, (and who went to school with my parents) Loeb studied with Copeland for a time, and he told me Copeland more or less chewed him out for not using his (Loeb's) extensive mathematical background in his music, and rather writing in more.... well, musical and non-mathematical music. Loeb said to me "he (Copeland) was just flabbergasted and just couldn't understand why I didn't use my mathematical training to compose (atonal and serial) music." So.... sorry, but Copeland was not some conservative, pro-tonal Americana Neo-Romantic who looked askew at atonal music as you seem to imply. From what I can glean, he was quite the opposite- in fact, he may have at times privately wished his 12-tone music was famous and "Fanfare for the Common Man" was not.
I brought it up because it's unexpected; people don't associate Copland with avant-garde music because his serial works came late in his career and aren't as famous as his tonal works. Even if Copland were exclusively an serial composer, there's still a significant enough gulf between serialism and Xenakis' stochastic approach for the gesture to be noteworthy; after all, Boulez was not a Xenakis fan by any means.
@@ClassicalNerd True. Good point. I figured you knew more or less about Copland, but I just noticed the implication that Copeland was somehow "anti-atonal" which can easily be construed from his famous works and a passing knowledge of him. I would be concerned that someone who might not know anything of Copland other than a "music appreciation class" level knowledge, might get the wrong idea from your implication. I might have said the same thing, but maybe would have added something like "it might be surprising to some that Copland would invite someone like Xenakis.... but in fact many might not know that Copland was in fact very interested in..." blah blah. At that level of knowledge one tends to see the divides at the time as "tonal/anti-tonal" and not get the subtleties of some of the lines in the sand at the time, like 12-tone vs.... idk, "musical geometry?" All these technical arguments and analyses of people like Xenakis, Stockhausen Boulez, Babbit, Elliot Carter, Wuornen, etc.... idk, sometimes my eyes start to glaze over when I start hearing about all the minute details of their conflicting ideas and theories- not from your videos I mean- I mean like when I've tried to read scholarly papers, read the writings of the composers themselves, or tried to talk to theorists and composers who are really hard-core into these guys. Sometimes I can appreciate it more, like with Weburn, for example, but sometimes I'm like.... well, that's nice, but the music still sounds like someone's trying to get Vietnamese house cats to have their intestines pulled out through their ears. As my teacher Robert Cuckson once said when I was asking him about Varese, "well, Varese to me is like Rameau. I can appreciate the importance of his theories and see how he's an important figure in history.... but that doesn't mean I'm going to sit around listening to his music again and again in my spare time." At the end of the day, I think that's the problem with some of these guys, as you mentioned I think in one of these videos- (not in these exact words of course) but the theoretical ideas in the conception doesn't always translate into a very musical experience when the tire hits the road. I'm really enjoying your videos, btw. I stumbled on your channel when looking for some videos for a class I'm teaching. Your stuff is a little technical for my middle schoolers, who are unfortunately not too into music history, but... I'm rather enjoying them myself!
I try not to get too sidetracked in composer-specific videos, as sometimes these videos get long enough as it is! I knew that I'd eventually get around to a more nuanced look at Copland in the video that I made in August '18, and I'm hoping that anyone who's interested in Copland would watch that video instead. It's neat that you studied with Cuckson; I had a lesson with him at AMF last year and he struck all of us composers as an extremely nice guy. It's true that these fancy processes don't always translate to quality music, but in all my research and listening for these videos, I've gained something of a new appreciation for them. I'm not in the habit of listening to Stockhausen or Xenakis on the train, but I've accustomed myself enough to the subtle differences in their respective languages that I hear Xenakis as ... well, _too_ atonal to be merely 12-tone.
@@ClassicalNerd I hear you about the length of videos. I actually know little about Copland's life other than what I read in the 90's and heard from friends and colleagues and teachers. I loved his "greatest hits" when I was in my early teens but started to get less enthusiastic as I went through conservatory training and got more.... "academized" to coin a phrase. I will watch your video on him later if I have time. Yes, I too do sometimes find myself enjoying some of these guys more as I study them and find myself listening to composers like Xenakis and Varese on kicks, but I don't think I've ever played them in my car when I'm driving to work. (I might play them while I'm vacuuming or something- in fact I have a feeling when I go do the vacuuming a little later I will.) Personally of all the 20th Century composers I think I admire Bartok, Shostakovich, and maybe George Crumb the most. Yes, Cuckson IS delightfully nice. He's also, as my friend Lois said "a virtuoso pedagogue." I remember my first lesson or two with him at Mannes, I thought I may have picked the wrong teacher. I found him a little hard to follow. But well before the end of my third lesson with him I realized I'd hit the jackpot. When I got used to his idiosyncratic ways of communicating I realized he always seemed to zone in on the weakest passages, (which were almost always the ones I was also dissatisfied with) he had a wonderful way of pulling out some great piece as a model to improve that weak passage and say "see? something like THAT" in a way that was almost always very inspiring. He also had a wonderful way of pointing out things he really enjoyed and admired in my writing in a very helpfully specific way- something I found myself doing with my own students and colleagues.
I've learned not to trust the pronunciations that Google gives. I have done that before, only to have people who actually know the language I'm attempting tell me that my attempt is wrong. In the end, Nyûyô isn't a huge and significant part of the Xenakis oeuvre, so it's not something I concerned myself over.
pivotal composer. immense talent, wonderful soul -- one of the true visionaries.
yes!!!!!! xenakis is one of my favourites
The performers of Keqrops was (if you still interested) - Claudio Abbado, Roger Woodward and the Mahlerjugendorchester, live performance from the Wienerkonzerthaus, October, 1992. At the time of upload I didn't know the performers nor I was able to find any.
He should embrace what he had that made him so unique and different.
Messiaen sounds like a good mentor
Good to see a video on Xenakis (one of THE greatest composers of all time, period) but I think you overplayed the mathematical side (which has more relevance to his work between aprox 1955-1972) and downplayed the majority of his mature work.
His career can be sliced quite nicely into three periods, one being based around architecture and science-influence aesthetics, the second period being his golden-age, where artistic influence switched to Greek Mythology, Platonism and his music started reflecting back on how he followed in the Stravinsky/Varese/Messiaen lineage - then the third period, where his music slowed down more and took on a slightly austere approach to what he had explored in the second period.
His really, really early available works (pre-Metastasis), show what he was initially planning or prophesying to become as a composer ("The greek Bartok" in his words, or greek Varese). That first period reflects his growth and explorations to lead him to become what he set out to be. The first period doesn't represent him at his strongest (but it does feature Oresteia, which is a major hinting from him and is a work "testing the waters") but they are innovative, science, architecture and mathematics where really big things for him, coming out of WW2, so it's natural that he saw his own musical growth within Scientific development. Once he had risen to truly encapsulate "Xenakis" in the mid 70s, his music drifted directly into Greek Mythology, Philosophy, Mysticism and raw human emotion.
I think most people (even Xenakis fans themselves) don't conceive of this, as there is that tendency to only see the superficial and ignore the more relevant subtext (for varying reasons). I enjoyed your video but I wish you had dug into the core of Xenakis' work (which is extraordinary), which is far, far more than maths - though I like that you tackled the political aspect.
This is the first time I'm hearing about a non-mathematical Xenakis, and while I don't doubt that he branched out and incorporated things other than math and architecture into his style as time went by, I saw no reason to think, during my assembling of the script for this video, that he ever moved away from using it as a baseline for his other compositional processes. For instance, the post-1972 tape pieces that were the output of his computer programs may not be as intrinsically and deeply mathematical as, say, _Nomos Alpha_ or a piece of that ilk, but it seems to me, upon hearing them and learning about the compositional processes that fed them, that he was still thinking in terms of what he had laid out in _Formalized Music._
Are there any publications (or academic articles) about late Xenakis that you would recommend?
Ι agree with you!
Seconding (three years later, lol) Classical Nerd's request for publications/articles about late Xenakis that delve into the points you made in this comment. Very curious to learn more! Thanks.
Thirding, zwei years later again
Just wanted to say that your channel is great! keep up the good work, quality content right here!
Very interesting talk. Xenakis is a very intriguing composer and after a bit of "effort" I discovered I do like/appreciate his music. He did create some really fascinating sound worlds.
Amazing to see how all these biographies slowly touch each other.
Trivia: "X" in "Xenakis" is really a /ks/ sound, since it is a transliteration of ξι. His name in Greek is Ξενάκης.
Foreign languages never disappoint me.
I think you are stuck in 132 BCE
OH YEA BABY love this dude
Iannis Xenakis, one of the true geniuses of the 20th century.
ua-cam.com/video/6HMFgS_eLgQ/v-deo.html
Just, thank you.
Xenakis
You're the only UA-camr that I can just listen to and not worry about the next shot
Messian taught Luc Ferrari too...
As compelling as his instrumental music is , his Concrete pieces my favorites.
I feel that medium suits his architectural aptitude in a very compact and economic style vis a vis instrumentals
Excellent background build-up to the music itself. Super-charged stuff!
🙌thanks for adding humor to it! Your videos are helping me study for my finals
Stellar work! Really appreciated the video. Xenakis helped me through some rough days. My favourite acoustic piece is "Rebonds B" (1987-1989) and my favourite electronic composition is "Orient-Occident" (1960). To newcomers, I can't recommend enough the compilation album "Electronic Music (1957-1992)". It was my first encounter with IX and it reconfigured my whole mind irreversibly (for the better). That album was such my challenge and my addiction at the same time, and many were the late nights I put on my headphones and took a walk to tumble through those tracks, trying to wrap my head around them. Xenakis makes me sweat, and never fails to inspire.
Amazing channel overall! For a request, may I suggest a future video on Henri Pousseur? :)
I love rebonds, and modernist/postmodernist percussion works in general
I really enjoyed your introduction! Thank you!
If you like electroacoustic music, I would suggest Francis Dhomont. "Chambre d'enfants" and "antichambre" are nice pieces.
I'm not sure if you actually perform , but you certainly are spot on in the historical end!!!!!
Thanks for all of what you do to make this information available to musicians, and non-musicians alike!!!
Thank you! I'm primarily a composer; I backed into musicology because it's a related, relevant, and interesting subject. I try to keep up my skills as a performer (piano, organ, a smattering of Balinese instruments), but it's not my main focus.
I find it interesting that you said he said the goal was to be more scientific with how music is composed, because his soundscapes are very philosophical to me, in nature. I mean, they scream against what can be considered "music", "art", "skill", etc. They bite at established norms deriding dissonance. They are the echoes of the universe, if it had them, as I can metaphorically put it. Some of his pieces could be considered, like "Particle Physics, the Musical", for freaks' sake.
Anyways, enjoyed your video, and... yeah, uprising of the people against establishment-pretty vague description-but I imagine that can still happen, oh yes, quite soon indeed.
Thank you, Maestro 🌹🌹🌹
extremely interesting and well made video
I was a little surprised that Ligeti didn't like Xenakis's music and Copeland invited him to teach. I've always loved the music of all three but my respect for Copeland grew even greater.
great vids man, i loved this one
Thanks for this excellent bio!
The Idmen pieces reference the Balinese sound-world very clearly. Arguably Claviers from Pleiades does too, though it predates his travels there lol. Peace
thank you very much,brilliant.....wonderful presentations
Excellent work!!!
Xenakis the man that you are
I would offer a slight correction. He was indeed influenced by his study of the pelog scale found in gamelan music. He combined it with his “pitch sieve” theory. This can be heard most clearly in his percussion masterpiece Pleiades. Even though he actively fought against being influenced by other composers’ works, to the point of avoiding new music concerts in his latter years.
Great video!! Will you consider to make a video about my favorite composer: Ralph Vaughan Williams?
Ralph Vaughan Williams is in the request pool and your request has been duly noted!
that makes me extremely happy! Your channel is superb!
Thank you!
really great video! i feel like such a weirdo sometimes for liking xenakis. my friends just don't get it. thank you for making this and for being you!
Your friends are weird for not liking Xenakis
I expected it to come out right around my birthday (wednesday next week) aaand obviously i wasn't too wrong😄
amazing video!!
Very good video! Please keep up the good work! :D
A composer, that might be interesting is Walter Niemann, a German Impressionist ;D
Niemann has been added to the request pool: lentovivace.com/requestqueue.html
Great video! Could you maybe do a video about Wilhelm Peterson-Berger or Dimitri Kabalevsky?
Peterson-Berger and Kabalevsky have been added to the request pool-but it's very long: lentovivace.com/requestqueue.html
Great video as always. I was wondering is there any good composition books for a beginner? (I have fairly good theory foundation but just want something that is more on applying it compositionally).
If there's one out there, I haven't found it. Generally composition is done on a one-on-one basis with a teacher or professor because it's such a personalized and individual thing.
I see your point, though my piano teacher doesn't really seem to offer much in that field. I don't see composition teachers in the local area either. Only real option I know of is a composition course at university, but even that has been stopped now.
mobius drummer there is an orchestration UA-camr called "Orchestration Online" but he is more specialized on composing and arranging for orchestra, and also on a more advanced level sometimes... but i still recommend having a look there. Especially his "Massive Open Online Orchestration Course (MOOOC)", which is about composing for string instruments, is a very helpful guide for all kinds of composers, from beginner to pro. Sometimes there also are tips for composing and composers in general too.
thank you, amazing channel
i know there's a queue for the great composers series but panayiotis kokoras is an amazing greek living composer and is worth checking. i will love a horatiu radulescu's analysis too. thank you for your videos :)
Living composers are beyond the scope of the _Great Composers_ series because you really can't put them in a proper historical context. However, I hope you'll be pleased to learn that I covered Rădulescu in August of last year: ua-cam.com/video/D5YBgfxWDYo/v-deo.html
Can we get a Glenn Branca video sometime soon pls 💖
Duly noted.
I would be interested in Elliott Carter, Charles Wuorinen, and Milton Babbitt.
Carter and Babbitt have been added to the enormous request pool, but Wuorinen is not on account of the fact that the _Great Composers_ series is limited to composers whose careers are over, and any living composer by definition has an ongoing career.
Thanks, duly noted.
@Classical Nerd now will you do charles wuorinen.
Is there any chance you could make a great composers video on Alban Berg?
Berg is currently the sixth video in the request queue: lentovivace.com/requestqueue.html
Classical Nerd I didn’t know you kept a running list, thanks for letting me know, your videos are always great.
Can you please do a video on Manolis Kalomiris?
Kalomiris has been added to the request pool.
The Soviets didn’t back up the Greek communists as per The Percentages Agreement, Yugoslavia backed up the Greek communists and as a result the tensions between Yugoslavia and The Soviet Union increased
Nobody really backed up Greek communists, and what's more Xenakis wasn't injured during a battle but during a British bombing on a peaceful protest, which triggered the Greek civil war.
Would have appreciated some 'musical' samples, but this was very enlightening.
Charles Rosen said that he did not find Xenakis's music interesting. To be fair, Rosen said that he recognized Messiaen as a great composer but was put off by his music's "unctuous piety".
Xenakis did return to Greece after the collapse of the fascist military junta in 1974. And twice i have been in performances of his music which took place under his presence and direction.
Great research and fluent presentation! Please, JULIÁN CARRILLO.
Duly noted: lentovivace.com/classicalnerd.html
Now do one about theodorakis
There was not so much about music.
Some illustrations would be also good to have for a topic not known to most of public.
😂 the little dry quips every now and then made my day!
XENAKIS
Chaos
Is a French-Greek a Grench or Freek?
Yet he's unknown in Greece, what a shame...
Do you underestimate the Academies? Avant-garde was popular in Greece from the 50s and on.
Actually he is really famous in greece
1:27 What do you mean by "still extreme but just in a different direction", that pro-communists can be equated to fascists or extremists?
Based
al margen de lo que dices sobre el pensamiento musical de Xenakis, sorprende tu caracterizacion política de la época joven de I.X. Señalás con cierto sarcasmo el espíritu antifacista de los comunistas griegos pero no hay ningún comentario crítico sobre la monarquia griega o las injerencias británicas en asuntos externos (colonialismo?) y eso me remite a la injerencia del FMI en la política griega en los últimos años. se puede tener una mirada política de izquierdas y a la vez crítico del totalitarismo soviético. Puedes ser menos maniqueista.
🎶His name is Xenakis, pronounced with an ah-chis!
Mr. Classical nerd, you better not botch-this!
We're getting sarcastic, 'cause his music's stochastic,
And I can say that I'm super excited to watch-this!🎶
i'm not 100% confident pronunciation on the pronunciation btw but just go with it
his music was performed in grease? so was xenakis like a precursor to oil wrestling?
He means the movie.
13:00 -ish.... sorry, but saying Xenakis is "almost diametrically opposed" to Copeland, and implying it was an amazing note-worthy exception for Copeland to extend such an invitation to Xenakis is VERY misleading.
I'm no Copeland scholar- but, from what I've heard from anecdotal stories from multiple sources, (and I've never seen any evidence to contradict this) Copeland both loved atonal music, wrote 12-tone music himself, and from anecdotal things I've heard from people who knew him, have relayed to me that Copeland may have much rather have been known for his atonal music and a "serious" composer rather than for his "Americana" music, which, from what I understand, on a certain academic and intellectual level, he was not very satisfied that that music was what he (Copeland) was known for.
In fact, David Loeb, a composer I've studied with, (and who went to school with my parents) Loeb studied with Copeland for a time, and he told me Copeland more or less chewed him out for not using his (Loeb's) extensive mathematical background in his music, and rather writing in more.... well, musical and non-mathematical music. Loeb said to me "he (Copeland) was just flabbergasted and just couldn't understand why I didn't use my mathematical training to compose (atonal and serial) music."
So.... sorry, but Copeland was not some conservative, pro-tonal Americana Neo-Romantic who looked askew at atonal music as you seem to imply. From what I can glean, he was quite the opposite- in fact, he may have at times privately wished his 12-tone music was famous and "Fanfare for the Common Man" was not.
I brought it up because it's unexpected; people don't associate Copland with avant-garde music because his serial works came late in his career and aren't as famous as his tonal works. Even if Copland were exclusively an serial composer, there's still a significant enough gulf between serialism and Xenakis' stochastic approach for the gesture to be noteworthy; after all, Boulez was not a Xenakis fan by any means.
@@ClassicalNerd True. Good point. I figured you knew more or less about Copland, but I just noticed the implication that Copeland was somehow "anti-atonal" which can easily be construed from his famous works and a passing knowledge of him. I would be concerned that someone who might not know anything of Copland other than a "music appreciation class" level knowledge, might get the wrong idea from your implication. I might have said the same thing, but maybe would have added something like "it might be surprising to some that Copland would invite someone like Xenakis.... but in fact many might not know that Copland was in fact very interested in..." blah blah. At that level of knowledge one tends to see the divides at the time as "tonal/anti-tonal" and not get the subtleties of some of the lines in the sand at the time, like 12-tone vs.... idk, "musical geometry?"
All these technical arguments and analyses of people like Xenakis, Stockhausen Boulez, Babbit, Elliot Carter, Wuornen, etc.... idk, sometimes my eyes start to glaze over when I start hearing about all the minute details of their conflicting ideas and theories- not from your videos I mean- I mean like when I've tried to read scholarly papers, read the writings of the composers themselves, or tried to talk to theorists and composers who are really hard-core into these guys. Sometimes I can appreciate it more, like with Weburn, for example, but sometimes I'm like.... well, that's nice, but the music still sounds like someone's trying to get Vietnamese house cats to have their intestines pulled out through their ears.
As my teacher Robert Cuckson once said when I was asking him about Varese, "well, Varese to me is like Rameau. I can appreciate the importance of his theories and see how he's an important figure in history.... but that doesn't mean I'm going to sit around listening to his music again and again in my spare time."
At the end of the day, I think that's the problem with some of these guys, as you mentioned I think in one of these videos- (not in these exact words of course) but the theoretical ideas in the conception doesn't always translate into a very musical experience when the tire hits the road.
I'm really enjoying your videos, btw. I stumbled on your channel when looking for some videos for a class I'm teaching. Your stuff is a little technical for my middle schoolers, who are unfortunately not too into music history, but... I'm rather enjoying them myself!
I try not to get too sidetracked in composer-specific videos, as sometimes these videos get long enough as it is! I knew that I'd eventually get around to a more nuanced look at Copland in the video that I made in August '18, and I'm hoping that anyone who's interested in Copland would watch that video instead.
It's neat that you studied with Cuckson; I had a lesson with him at AMF last year and he struck all of us composers as an extremely nice guy. It's true that these fancy processes don't always translate to quality music, but in all my research and listening for these videos, I've gained something of a new appreciation for them. I'm not in the habit of listening to Stockhausen or Xenakis on the train, but I've accustomed myself enough to the subtle differences in their respective languages that I hear Xenakis as ... well, _too_ atonal to be merely 12-tone.
@@ClassicalNerd I hear you about the length of videos. I actually know little about Copland's life other than what I read in the 90's and heard from friends and colleagues and teachers. I loved his "greatest hits" when I was in my early teens but started to get less enthusiastic as I went through conservatory training and got more.... "academized" to coin a phrase.
I will watch your video on him later if I have time.
Yes, I too do sometimes find myself enjoying some of these guys more as I study them and find myself listening to composers like Xenakis and Varese on kicks, but I don't think I've ever played them in my car when I'm driving to work. (I might play them while I'm vacuuming or something- in fact I have a feeling when I go do the vacuuming a little later I will.)
Personally of all the 20th Century composers I think I admire Bartok, Shostakovich, and maybe George Crumb the most.
Yes, Cuckson IS delightfully nice. He's also, as my friend Lois said "a virtuoso pedagogue." I remember my first lesson or two with him at Mannes, I thought I may have picked the wrong teacher. I found him a little hard to follow. But well before the end of my third lesson with him I realized I'd hit the jackpot. When I got used to his idiosyncratic ways of communicating I realized he always seemed to zone in on the weakest passages, (which were almost always the ones I was also dissatisfied with) he had a wonderful way of pulling out some great piece as a model to improve that weak passage and say "see? something like THAT" in a way that was almost always very inspiring. He also had a wonderful way of pointing out things he really enjoyed and admired in my writing in a very helpfully specific way- something I found myself doing with my own students and colleagues.
@@ClassicalNerd Where is AMF btw?
15:05 Well if you don't want to pronounce it, how is it written then?
Nyûyô.
Classical Nerd uhm... google?😂
Also, is it vietnamese or japanese? Google translator recognizes it as vietnamese, but other dictionaries seem to say it's japanese...
I've learned not to trust the pronunciations that Google gives. I have done that before, only to have people who actually know the language I'm attempting tell me that my attempt is wrong. In the end, Nyûyô isn't a huge and significant part of the Xenakis oeuvre, so it's not something I concerned myself over.
It's for Japanese instruments, so I would assume that it's intended to be a Japanese title.
He is not musician. He is noise producer, very weak one.
Dear Classical Nerd - I left after watching 3 ads in a row before I got a minute into the video. Be less greedy.
I have no control over that.
@@ClassicalNerd - sorry didn't know. Apologies. Google is just awful.
Use adblockers, you have to blame Google incorporated (aka Alphabet holding) for that.
this is not music just noises
Explain
@@Spacepilgrims music is melody
@@abbypurre9623 300 Years ago, Bach Is dead bruh, PLS, welcome in 2021
@@abbypurre9623 music is not just melody. It is melody, harmony, and rhythm. A piece of music doesn’t have to contain all three.
ua-cam.com/video/uExkd1dkU0Y/v-deo.html
I am no communist by any means, but your video included unecessary political comments.
your mom's video included unnecessary political comments
You cannot divide creations from authors, unless it's explicitly stated by author himself and proven by common sense.