Why the Dutch are more relaxed when it comes to parenting - BBC REEL
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- Опубліковано 23 лют 2022
- Part 3: Societal Change
There are many hidden forces at play that shape a new mother's identity, biology and physical self. Melissa Hogenboom, BBC science journalist and author, explores the way societal expectations and cultural norms change the motherhood experience.
She takes a journey with her family to her homeland, to understand why the Dutch are more relaxed when it comes to parenting.
This is part 3 of 3
Part 1: How motherhood changes your sense of self: • How motherhood changes...
Part 2 : How pregnancy dramatically re-sculpts the brain • How pregnancy dramatic...
Part 2:
#bbcreel #bbc #bbcnews
“You don’t have to be excellent. Just being normal is ok.” Simple but profound. Hard to even imagine life in America with that norm. Especially here in the DC area which overflows with overachievers.
"Do you really have to be special? Do you really need people's recognition? I don't think so. At the very least, not when it comes to this child... He doesn't need to become great. Why would he have to be better than everyone else? Just look at him... Don't you see how cute he is? He's already great, because he was born into this world."
@@gerardo49078 damn, the mom must be very proud of whatever her son will be.
I feel the same way as you. I also live in Washington DC and I feel the pressure of over achieving in everything you do, from your job to the way you look, what you have and even with friends.
I am from Mexico where we have a different culture and it was a big shock for me, I am still struggling to fit into this highly competitive society and now that I am planning in becoming a mother is even harder.
I have the pressure from my family to stay home and take care of my child and be a full time mom but I also have the pressure from my husbands family and friends to be a working mom, not to mention the economical aspect where sometimes you have no option but to work because one salary is not enough.
Normal here is both parents working paying someone else to raise their kid.
U Have to b a overachiever to survive even just live in America
I’ll chime in to say that women(and men) experiencing parenthood are impacted greatly by their spouses being proactive in sharing all the aspects parenting. I still think that despite advancements in the US with work policies, women still feel the lion’s share of stress when taking care of their children. Culturally, we unconsciously expect women to be the primary nurturers, the effect of which is to discount men’s nurturing/caregiving, and for it to be either not expected or even questioned, especially by corporate culture.
So well put!
I was discussing with a woman today who staunchly supported that women instinctively know how to take care of children... despite having been raised by her widowed father since she was 5!
I’m still so upset for my best friend. Her husband didn’t cancel his work trip even though it meant being away the first week after childbirth. And he even opted to extend his business trip. On top of that, he made her sleep in the guest bedroom so her night time feedings would not interrupt his sleep. And he’s always saying how babies need their moms more during the early years. He’s so brainwashed by the US societal thought that men aren’t nurturers. These men who don’t shoulder the burden of caregiving must not have ever known a single father. If they’ve ever met a single father, who by circumstance had to fill the “mothering” duties, then surely they would see that they can be nurturers too. I hope I can find a man who notices our child has outgrown his/her/their shoes and goes out to buy new shoes without me prompting. Seems like a unicorn
I wholeheartedly agree.
💯
I was raised by a Dutch father & American mother and grew up in both countries. Summers in the Netherlands and the school year in the US. My Dad is always telling me to take it easy and emphasized enjoying my life. As a teenager, he discouraged me from working too much at my high school job because, "I have my whole life to work," and I should "enjoy being young with my friends." My parents never pressured me to be an overachiever and gave me lot's of freedom to learn about myself as a child. The only time I ever felt pressure to work lot's of jobs in high school or commit to clubs and activities I didn't care about was when I was with my American friends. Many of my American friends worked long hours at fast food restaurants, played 3-4 sports, and took as many AP classes as possible. While this was great and all, it was obvious many of them weren't happy. They did these things to meet their parents expectations to fit in with cultural norms. I sometimes wonder if this would still be case had I gone to school in the Netherlands.
Update: I'm currently in college and I see these same differences with International students vs American students!
For example, in Russia, lots of children are forced to go to music schools because their parents want them to. Do you know how many of them actually use these skills later in life? Nearly zero. But it took almost all free time from their childhood years
My dad was the same way with us but because he was forced to work throughout high school and didn’t want us to have to do the same. So so grateful he pushed us to enjoy high school/our young years! I plan to do the same with my kids ☺️
Same here (I grew up in Scandinavia). I delivered newspapers early mornings during the weekends and commercial stuff some evenings during the weekdays). It was my own idea and I loved the responsibiltiy (it was an invitation to the adult world as a 13 year old and I liked the responsibility and to compete with myself if I could beat my delivery record etc). My dad would also tell me to not work my self too hard and only do it if I enjoyed it because friends and rest was important too and not just school and my side job. As an adult I find that that early job helped me lots to take things more serious in life, and it taught me early on to show up even when I didn’t enjoy it. That is a good lesson to have in life because not all things will be fun, but you still have to do them. Personally I also find that I enjoy the fun things more when I have some boring things fresh in mind too (sort of it’s not always like that so take the opportunity and enjoy it). Some of my friends saw me having more money to spend with my job and decided to get side jobs too, which made me popular with their parents (a friend with good influence and it got my friends off of their parents’ back because now they had more money and didn’t ask their parents to give them extra outside of their allowance). I also bought vegetable seeds with some of the money and grew veggies and sold them. If I ever have kids I wouldn’t want them to get a bunch of allowance (I wouldn’t want to take away their chance of being creative).
Im half Dutch (mom) , half Palestinian. My mom was somehow super relaxed at parenting and it was nice. My father was strict and he pushed us a lot and told us we have to be excellent, but then again if it weren't for my father I don't think I would have gone to university and graduated.
America is very much a capitalistic society that touts the idea that success is predicated on having an advantage over your peers. Education and extracurriculars are seen as an advantages that can potentially earn you scholarships to help make secondary education affordable, help you get a job when you have no experience, etc.
It creates a competitive environment and an individualistic culture here in the states. We have no societal safety nets like universal healthcare, equal education funding, affordable childcare or affordable higher education. As a parent, you feel like if you don’t set your child up for success, you are condemning them to a life of instability.
American education funding is heavily dependent on local property taxes which means the poorer your community the poorer the schools. Many families will choose where to live based on the highest value school district they can afford near their place of employment. It’s a fundamentally flawed system in many ways :(
I had the opportunity to stay in the Netherlands for 6 months and I left with a great impression of their life style. It's one of my favorite places in the world.
Ah jealous! Sounds like a dream, I'd like to live in several places for a while.
I agree...we were always taking breaks.
@@redfishswimming That is just a load of bs, excuse the language. Net disposable income in The Netherlands is higher for most people then in the USA. You would have to earn a really high income before you would be better off in the states, like a "less then 10% of the people earn this" type of income. On top of that the dutch have one of the best pension systems in the world.
@@redfishswimming First of all; taxes are great! That's the whole reason why things are so much better organized in NL compared to USA. Secondly, I believe the inequality in NL has not been that big as it is right now... The rich become more rich and the poor become more poor... So as Hendman already said; your comment is a load of bs...
When my kids have kids I am ABSOLUTELY buying an RV and going to wherever they live to help them when my grandchildren are born, and periodically thereafter. I will insist! I can't stand how little help I received or how distant my family is, even though we have a "good" relationship. Motherhood can be so isolating and it shouldn't be. It is such a joy when it isn't completely overwhelming.
Agreed. I have many friends who came from very large, right communities where the village raised the child with you. They married Americans and the Women, being migrants, had NO ONE to help them, to bond with, and their spouses worked long hours. It’s a tragedy that women face social death in many cases, but also financial and physical vulnerability. It’s a recipe for disaster and opens the door to all sorts of abusive environments.
me too
That's a really good plan, God bless your family!
This is an immensely painful topic for me. My kids are now 14 and 10, but when they were infants, toddlers, and young children I was the main caregiver. I felt so much resentment towards my now ex-husband for his “freedom”. I now know and acknowledge that he was just as much a “victim” of our culture that pressures men to focus only on work. The lack of support for mothers and parents in general, though, has had a huge negative impact on our family’s overall wellbeing, my potential to make a living wage, and my mental health. The U.S. is failing their mothers, fathers, parents, children, and families to the detriment of generations of human beings and the country as a whole. It’s messed up. 😔
hey I totally agree. I just wanted to say that Im really sorry to hear about that. I hope you and your family can heal from that and recognize that you all went through it. It's really hard!
My daughter is three and I felt every word of your comment in my bones. Sending the best to your family...
@@nataliyapirumova3514 Thank you. I’m wishing you the best as well.
He's not a victim, he took advantage of the societal expectations to be less burdened and less responsible as a parent. Unfortunately, until men step up as nurturers, women will have lesser and lesser children. Not that anyone gives a damn l. I suppose it's for the best, with humans basically being v detrimental to the environment.
@@Ciel_Bleu4 I agree, my husband is an American and he is a very good (and hands-on) father. It's too easy to blame society.
I actually teared up when they were talking about how you don't have to be excellent at everything, you're just a person. If everyone has to be absolutely exceptional just to afford to exist it's a recipe for disaster.
Disaster for us. Profit for them.
When I had my daughter, I went into labor at work. I could only take 2 months off. I was so depressed when I had to go back to work and leave my baby with a stranger. She spent more time in daycare when she was little than she did with me. It broke my heart, and soul. I still regret not quitting my job when she was born.That would have been the only way I could’ve stayed home more. I still sometimes breakdown because of it.
I'm so sorry. This is an abusive thing to do to a mother, it should have never happened. All the best
@@luisa1473 💕💕
You did the best you could at the time mama give yourself some credit 💜❤️
What matters most is the PRESENT relationship that you have with her. She doesn’t remember those years, you do. She does remember how you treat and care for her on a daily basis. Focus on your current relationship with your daughter and those feelings of remorse that you didn’t spend time with her will soon fade away.
@@lvelfe3415 bless you. Thank you. You’re absolutely correct.
I think the BBC should look into some of the other European countries. Sweden is exceptional, 480 days leave to share between parents, government sponsored days to care for sick kids and 100% free health care for kids including teeth. We moved to Sweden from South Africa and were genuinely blown away by the way they make parenting part of society norms
it is not free health care, it is tax payer paid
@@chelseagirl278 which is great, and worth it. That's what it means to take care of each other in a society that values the health and wellbeing of all people.
@@chelseagirl278 It's free at the point of access.
@@chelseagirl278 and free gifts from companies are not really free, they are paid by companies. if you're strict about it, nothing except air is free.
@@chelseagirl278 That is what good governments do, redistribute wealth to create a better society for everybody.
„calm and reliably presence“ perfection
I'd love to see a doc on elder care disparities. That's a serious issue for the US too.
it's almost like everything is serious issue in the united states
And in Canada
@@melukosmik not as severe as the USA but Canada has a broken system
The ELDERLY people in the U.S drain the funds for the young people to progress because we have to care for those who are “sick” but majority of US elderly disease is self-imposed (cirrhosis, End stage renal disease, diabetes, stroke). Manage your health and eat well when you are YOUNG.
Of course I acknowledge auto-immune diseases are outside of anyone’s control but majority of the people in Nursing homes are there because of stroke (AKA lack of health management while young. Do not be stressed out and manage your diet). This ties into the “Excel culture” that was mentioned in the documentary. In the US, “Bigger, better, faster” ALWAYS comes at the expense of the individual’s health but we also live in a culture that promotes “Do what makes you happy.” So it is definitely a double-edge sword living in the US.
But please do a documentary on who will care for the elderly in the US because more young people are getting educated, leaving the elderly on the sidelines.
Canada’s paid parental leave is great and I was so grateful when I had my daughter. Mothers are entitled to 15 week maternity leave and then up to 65 weeks parental leave which can be shared between both parents, whichever way you choose. Thinking about going back to work only a few weeks after my baby was born was horrifying to me. I couldn’t imagine leaving her so soon.
Yeah but only 50% or 30% of wages. If it were full pay it would be perfect.
For both of my pregnancies I quit two different jobs a month before my both of girls were born. My husband still worked full time so I was able to do this but I still felt so much outside pressure and judgment when doing so. It's worth noting both of my jobs allowed me my job back after my "maternity leave" was over. I needed to time to prepare, to rest and to enjoy those last days of my pregnancies. I dont regret it at all.
Every time I hear how the US is dealing with maternity oder parental leave, i just cannot believe it. I live in Germany. 6 weeks before I had my first child early 2019 my maternity leave started until 8 weeks after birth, I decided to stay home for two years on parental leave. During that time I got Pregnant again before my parentaly leave was over , so those month, that i "lost" were just added to the two years I took all over again after my second child was born. So next year in May, my parental leave will end and during this whole time I have a safe job, because by law they cannot fire me while I'm in parental leave. I even get money each month (60% of my salary or in this case, as i used two years, its 30%) plus "childrens money" (about 200€ each month per Kid till they are adults basically). I really really hope that this topic will get more attention in US Politics!! Don't stop fighting for it!"
This sounds like a dream! -American mother of an almost one year old
That sounds awesome. I can't even imagine those benefits in the USA. Corporations run our country and seem to have more rights than the people who work for them. When I had my twins and went on maternity leave I only got 6 weeks and then I had to pay for the extra time myself. The company I worked for also had a policy that you had to pay back the money for employee medical contribution while not working. In other words lets say you have have 100 a month deducted for your share of paying medical insurance and you were on maternity leave for 4 months.....you would have to pay that to the company.
How ridiculous is that?
So you had over 4 years
@@Yeewen88 almost 4,5 years altogether. 2 years per kid, but because my maternity leave overlapped with my parental leave that I still had for my first child, those month were added to the 2 years from my second child.
In order to be excellent we must first be FUNCTIONAL. If we cannot function as a complete human being we will fail to function,let alone excel,in any aspect of life. Rest and regularity are two of the things modern life lacks the most.
Rest and regularity! Hell yes. My premmie twins were raised on the clock. They knew when it was time to sleep, when it was time to eat and when it was time to play. They always knew what was coming, it made them relaxed, calm and happy. It helped that my ex-husband worked from home and was able to spend so much time with the babies, but the routine was the thing that saved us from losing our minds when they were babies.
Omg if I hear someone else say it’s US culture to not to care as much about parental leave or we feel the need to be stressed and work work work etc I’m gonna scream. We are FORCED to do this. We HATE it, we DONT HAVE A CHOICE. Our government doesn’t give a crap about us, these stupid policies prevent us from being the parents we wish we could have the opportunity to be.
The Musks and Zucks will definitely take care of parenting and work culture in the US, and eventually in the whole world.
India is also heading towards a very similar work culture like in the US. Corporates are gaining more n more power over society.
But it is our culture. Our society is set up like this.
We may hate it. But it's still our culture.
A great book to read on this subject is "The Nordic Theory of Everything" by Anu Partenen. I think when someone says 'culture', they are not referring to people, but rather how our government allocates resources. In Nordic countries, resources go to support families, health care and education to a much higher degree than the U.S.
Eeeeeh. I'll disagree. I hear so many people call Europeans "lazy" because they choose to do other things than work themselves to death. Hence why so many Americans are against socialist policies
@@jackb1969 I will never understand the American tendency to make socialism the bogeyman
As an American woman, I see how impossible it is to have work life balance and security as a mom and I know for a fact I'd be constantly overwhelmed and guilty. And for those and many other reasons, I'm opting out of motherhood.
That’s so sad 😞
@@vp2618 it might be sad if I actually wanted kids but I just... don't. But if circumstances were different, it'd be much easier to go with the typical life script.
That is very sad. :/
There is the option to opt out of your career and instead marry a man who will support you as you do the very important and fulfilling work of motherhood at home. ☺️ I can say from personal experience that this makes for excellent balance! Everyone has the joy of fulfilling their unique and crucial roles in the family unit. No one is redundant. Team work!
@@juliakinzel285 I'm married and we cannot survive on my husband's income, let alone a kid
@@juliakinzel285 where are all of these rich men everyone thinks women should marry? The average American income does not comfortably support a family, even in dual income households. Some women want to work. Some people don’t want kids. Life can be fulfilling beyond wiping your child and husbands mouths.
This would be more of an enjoyable watch if there was less intense background music.
You mean silence?
I'm honestly so shocked because maternity leave in my country is a year long (12 months) and I thought that was the case throughout the world as it should be! It's not only essential for mother's recovery and bonding with a child and taking care of it, but it's essential for breastfeeding also and it's so cruel to leave a child without mother for such a long time because of the job!
wow, a year? it's awesome! may I know which country do you live? (sorry I'm not being creepy, just curious)
@@desireedella I live in Serbia and here you can get 12 months off work for your first and second child, a 24 months for third and every child that comes next and it's all paid (it depends on your pervious salaries but working mothers are never left without some income) :)
@@milica7835 wow!!
In Italy it's up to a year, but you have full pay only for a month before and 3 after giving birth, then you get pay cuts. And after those 4 inizial months dad can take those months instead of the mom if they want to. Still great imo. In Germany it's even better, I know of German moms who were able to keep their jobs for up to 3 years (without pay after a bit). The US is terrible for families...
@@silmuffin86 honestly that sounds pretty good too! I'm glad Europe is still respectful towards women
US system is obviously so cruel and harsh, I feel really sorry for women there 😥
I find it so funny that taking care of one's child/children is dependent solely on 'motherhood' even when it comes to researchers. There's a word 'parenthood' and instead of promoting both parties to be engaged in bringing up a child it has to boil down to the 'motherhood'. Even when reaching out for external helping hands, "It takes a village to bring up a child." it has to be females, as if the male members of the family do not exist all of a sudden. In my country I even find that the friends of a mom would occasionally come and partly look after the child. Hanging out with a friend who became a mom means when you hang out with her there's a chance you get to meet the child and partly look after him/her. Where that's hardly the case for friends of the dad. Their way of hanging out doesn't change. They spend time without the kids. Like.. what the hell?
Yes, I understand that the culture, job ethics and ideals etc play a significant role in mothers struggling and being constantly stressed out but really the society, and I mean every single member of the society, young or old, women or men should understand and rearrange its system, culture and expectation so that bringing up a child becomes and settles as a task for both of the parents.
For a start, in order to achieve this, you need a small and tight community of people who have settled into one area, possibly homogenous, and all trust each other, as opposed to a metropolitan densely populated urban city environment where people from all walks of life come and go and leave no investment in the broader community, otherwise, the people who choose to live in these environments should expect what they get. Second, women being the primary carers of the child isn't a simple cultural social construct, women are biologically hardwired to be temperamentally maternally oriented for children, whereas men are not. This maternal temperament evolved in women so that they feel instinctively compelled to nurture children to ensure their survival and development, as well as ensure that they have the patience to manage and tolerate children when they do things that make you want to throw them out the window. So it's not just culture that's responsible for women taking on this role, it's the fact that women are naturally better equipped for it than men. However, it's not like men don't play an evolutionary role in child development, they teach the child to be strong, independent, self-sufficient, and fend for themselves, or at least they used to until modern cultures ceased to value that male role, and now encourage children to remain children up until they reach adulthood, which has obviously not operated in the favour of individuals in society as a whole.
It is MOTHERHOOD. We grow the baby and ideally should breastfeed them…it’s the Mother Nature way. We have become so desensitized to our bodies that that is why modern women have such bad postpartum depression. We are not raised to be nurturing enough and then we go off and excel in our jobs and suddenly at 30 we have this baby yet have no instincts on how to suddenly be unselfish and nurturing. I went through this. Ideally I do think it’s the woman that should get the year off to feed baby skin on skin (not pump!) and bond with the baby however society doesn’t encourage nor give support for that.
@@gunnikr The unfortunate truth about it is modern society teaches women from a young age that their purpose in life or the most important thing they'll ever do or achieve is having a career rather than having a family. It's a shame, and they do it to men to by insisting that men need to abandon their traditional roles or lifestyles and start adopting more feminine roles, lifestyles or ways of being. These roles emerged from what our biology demands of us, and when we break them we get hurt.
I don’t think they meant to promote gender inequity in raising children. Rather, the video demonstrated how parents, but particularly women who become physically and financially vulnerable especially during pregnancy and early childhood years are impacted. Unhealthy gender roles worsen the effects and they always stack against women…
My grandparents immigrated from the Netherlands to Canada and both were working full time jobs. My mom told me she and my aunt would come home alone at 7 and 8 years old and have to make themselves food until my Oma would come home! Definitely influenced by the North American work culture. As my Oma, she was honestly the best Oma ever who taught me everything and helped out my mom so much when we were kids. She even moved in next door to us when I was 6 or 7. I love her dearly and miss her so much.
16 weeks isn’t that much. In Australia we get 18weeks at minimum wage from the commonwealth. And whatever you get from your employer. In my case that was 16 weeks. I took my maternity leave from my employer at half pay (for 32 weeks) and combined with the commonwealth leave it was a whole year of pay.
16 weeks is very little, compared to most of EU. It's rather 1+ year in Europe.
Actually in Australia you can get up to 20 weeks paid maternity leave; the father can get 2 weeks of 'dad and partner pay'. But yeah it is generally 18 weeks maternity leave for the mother. But still we should get more time off, it's really not enough.
@@lucybird8679 it is definitely 18 weeks. As I just had it. The partner pay is at the same time as the primary carer. Designed to be used when the baby arrives home.
My grandfather came to the US from Holland when he was a young man. He came here to begin his family because he thought that there were better opportunities for success and happiness. Oh, how the tables have turned.
I will never understand why the Netherlands is so often portrayed as the perfect society. Maternity leave is much higher in other European countries, childcare much more affordable and what in my opinion is more important, there is a serious paternity leave, unlike in the Netherlands. Having dads only getting 1/16 of the leave mothers get sends the clear message to society and employers that the burden of care is for the mother. Women are then less likely to find full time and higher positions than men and so the cycle continues. In Spain, for example, both father and mother get 4 months after the birth (the 4 weeks before due date in the Netherlands are deducted from the 16, so only 12 weeks after)
Agree. I also cant’t understand that. Why Netherlands?:) very similar conditions or as said even better are almost in every EU country. I’m a foreigner living in the Czech Republic and it’s just a great country for raising kids.
Being Dutch myself I do agree, a lot of other countries have much longer maternity and paternity leave. I feel Scandinavian countries are much better when it comes to this. However i do want to set some things straight. Dads get 6 weeks paternity leave now and by Augustus 2022 you get an additional leave off 9 weeks which is 70% paid if you take it in the first year of your babies life. I looked it up and a lot of countries do offer longer leave but it’s much less paid so not everyone can afford it.
Also a lot women chose to work parttime just because they want to and it gives better work-private life balance.
Because does other countries don’t have as strong economies as the Dutch
I think the one thing that's better in the Netherlands, is that you can work part time quite easily compared to other countries.
@@madamelicorne581 That is absolutely true.
They should have interviewed moms in Lithuania, maternity leave is up to 3 years!
Is it all paid? Because in Estonia my workplace is obligated to keep my job for me for 3 years but paid maternity leave is for 18 months (but if I'd decide to stay home for more than 3 years, I'd have medical insurance until my child is 5).
@@rrrents the cool part is that in Estonia you get 100% of your salary all these 1.5 years :) and you are also allowed to work while on the maternity leave, without losing the compensation - it only gets a little smaller if you work. My wife does that right now :)
@@rrrents 18 months is AMAZING!!!! In the USA we get 0.
I’ve only been a dad for around 10 months, but already lost count of the number of times strangers have mentioned ‘daddy daycare’ when I’ve been out with my son alone. Like I’m only half a parent…
I am a single mother and have worked in construction. Fortunately, I wasn't ever pregnant while working on a jobsite, but if I am more than capable of working in construction, then you are more than capable of being a complete parent. As long as you're doing your best for your child, you're a good parent. End of discussion.
I am from the UK but now live in Netherlands. I loved this series but I would hazard holding up the dutch maternity leave as great. Sure, great compared to US but not to UK or most of Europe really. 16 weeks is no time at all! With my first child born in UK I had a year leave and with my second born in NL it felt so rushed to go back sooner. So I have taken some unpaid leave until I feel more confident to leave my baby- probably around 1 year. Dutch shared parenting culture though is super nice!
On the guilt and sole focus of life - the best thing I did for my son and my mental health was to let others help take care of him from the time he was 6 months old. And I should have done that earlier. Spending time with 5 to 7 diferrent people daily is the reason he (now 2yo) is calm and confident in my absence, but also ahead of his peers in most developmental areas, particularly speech and fine motor skills. In Bulgaria we have 45 days before due date and 2 years after birth paid leave (well, the amount is not great, but still), so here a working mother before that time is seriously frowned upon. However, seeing all around children being raised between 2 adults and often having only minutes of quality time here and there with the secondary caregiver - timid, nonverbal kids, screaming or on the phone with depressed or nerve-wracked moms - I would do it my way the second time too.
Lots of people don't have an army of people willing and able to take care of their kid. Also your kid could just be ahead because they are genetically gifted. Why would a mother be a nervous wreck if she's ignoring her kid all day? Doesn't add up.
@@luisa1473 This is very true - a lot of people don't have a village. A lot of people also choose to not make use of the people available to them (even of the father). I am very lucky that we live near both pairs of grandparents, uncles, aunts and their kids, but I also choose to let them have their one-on-one time with my kid - not many do that, I have noticed.
And our son goes to kindergarten (or maybe the equivalent of daycare) from 15 months of age - very early for our standards. He adores his friends there, the caregivers and especially the art teacher. A lot of parents choose not to let the kids go to daycare (it's free here) and I have seen nothing but benefits.
Finally, I have not mentioned moms ignoring their children. Still, I think it's the other way around. Moms (or dads) tipically become burnt out (hence depressed, nerve-wracked or yes, distant or ignoring) when they give too much time and attention to the detriment of their basic needs. Beyond the first few months of endless feedings and hectic sleep schedule, there is no need for mom to forego a shower, some hours of undesturbed sleep and some time for her rest or interests alone. Some specific life situations apart, there is always a way, but you have to be willing to let or ask for help to happen.
@@afrodita543 Count yourself lucky. These people around you that may seem to not make use of their extenededs near them.... most of the time there is a reason you are blind to. Assumptions don't help anybody.
I could make the same argument for me. I was raised by my parents only, but I was calm and confident with my grandparents and I was way ahead of other children in most developmental areas.
"Rest, regularity, cleanliness, these 3 things lead to dutch kids being the happiest in the world" this is the first I've heard of that phrase. Thanks for giving me something to research more on.
The dutch situation is so simplified here. A lot of parents work part time because of income-dependent childcare prices. For the highest and lowest incomes working full time is profitable, but for many in the middle you'd pay as much to childcare as is your income. By working less the prices drop and you actually gain money by working again. So two parents working 7 or 8 days together often make more money then would they work 10 days in the same jobs. This is even more true if one makes quite a bit more than the other. The cost of childcare is often more than the income of the lowest paid parent. Forcing the lowest paid parent (usually the woman) into part time work or completely out of the workforce. This than permanently hurts career opportunities. You can idealize the time spent with the kids, and that is valuable. But it is not helping equality. The Netherlands is one of the worst western countries for moms to make a career. On paper it seems fine, but in reality there are many things that make it virtually impossible for many moms to have a career next to their kids. Especially if you didn't already had a great job when you have your first kid.
this is interesting. I wondered about some of the things you mention-careers for women, childcare cost. I do wish the US had a nurse for newborns and guaranteed leave
Exactly !!!
I agree with some of the arguments. However, even with my youngest being born extremely premature and all stress and sickdays that came with that, I was still hired at another company with a large increase in salary and with more responsibilities. I work 32 hours a week. My husband also works part time. We share the responsibilities for our children. I do think you are able to make a career, even if you already have children.
This isn't about "women having careers". This is about parenting styles. We aren't a marxist country with fake careers for women in the name of fake equality. Go away.
@@ozzieenglelewis They are talking out of their fat behind.
In the Netherlands and Germany we DON'T have sick days. When we are sick, we go to our GP, call in sick at work and go back to work when we are BETTER. And the GP in Germany decides how long we stay at home, we just call ourselves sick at work and we don't explain what's wrong.
Thank you for making this video, please say all of this louder for the people in back!
I'm from the Netherlands and I have to say this video hypes up the Dutch culture way too much. In recent years Dutch media are makes fun of parttime working moms as "parttime princesses". Women are supposed to work more, while our daycare facilities don't have enough staff so contracts with parents are being cancelled. Plus, it is SUPER expensive so it doesn't really matter if you work full time or work less. The more you earn, the less you get compensated for daycare. Plus, there is a huge wage gap between woman and men so if one of the parents have to stay home more for the children, there is a big chance it's going to be the mom. Which in return will make the wage gap bigger, because she can't build up her resume like the father.
Strange that they used the Netherlands as the exemplar. In the UK, you can take up to 52 weeks, and can take this as early as 11 weeks before the birth. Up to 39 of those weeks is paid.
Couldn’t finish watching it… the music overwhelmed the dialogue
I live the European way. Work is to put food on the table & roof over the head. After I clock in my 40 hours I am off the clock & focusing on myself, family & friends. My son was raised the same way. He's now living in Europe & his American co-workers are perplexed by his 'going native'. He tells them that that this is how he was raised.
Hey @BBC Reel! You struck a real chord with this one! Maybe discuss ways that people can find balance and lower their personal stress though community, like in blue zones.
Good on them. "Anxiety makes good parents": said no one ever.
Really reassuring to learn some parents have a little reassurance in this one area of their lives.
The world is not so bad after all
I appreciated this video, I am a working mom, for 12 hrs a day, 3 weeks on, 2 weeks off. And it is really hard due to the guilt feeling I feel for returning home around 7 pm……
Do you just feel completely ok about yourjob like enjoying wise?
Sixteen weeks?! Here we (people that work for the State) have 6 months paid and two extra months if you don't mind not getting paid those two extra. People who work privately have 3 months paid up to 4 (without pay). I love my country 🇦🇷
16 weeks is 4 months? So same as you when you work privately.
What I like about the vid is, " It starts with Vivaldi"..... Great video..
I need to move here asap
Miss being in a country where family comes first
I just searched in Malaysia maternity leave changed from 60 days to 98 days, restriction on the termination of pregnant employees and the introduction of paternity leave for married male workers (7 days from 3 days)
*The Malaysian Parliament also approved an amendment to increase maternity leave from 60 days to 98 days in the case of private sector employees and 90 days for civil servants, in keeping with International Labour Organisation recommendations
Some thrive under stress, while others fold. Yet, those who thrive should still help those who can't.
That’s it. ‘We don’t have to excel’.
It's toxic. To the point that anyone who is different is bullied and abused.
@@e.g.4483 such bullshit. She just said you can be who you are
@@SD-ko4tz Dutch culture doesn't allow that. That's my point. They don't allow for anyone to be different. What she said was "we don't HAVE to excel" which is fine. Dutch culture is "You better not excel!" or "You're very dumb compared to the rest, you also don't belong!".
that's why i left U.S. , it's funny because my parents did everyth8ng to emigrate here
and i have done all to get out .. i was tired of the enormous inflation in
San Francisco, especially renting or buying home,
and tired of the stress of other people .
for ex. even though i lived in a lovely pace across from Dolores Park
i could literally hear people arguing over parking spaces outside daily
i suddenly realized i could just go to
Thailand and maybe hardly ever work again
there's a lot of jealousy i have experienced for my choice
but here in Thailand , a lot of locals still have it okay
despite covid,
many inherited their homes or even land
and just work a bit for groceries and stuff
The highly anxt environment in the US needs to be relooked at, especially when considering how kids, teenagers, adults fair as they go through life.
Yes! And we definitely have mental health epidemic here…
As someone who will be the stay at home dad, I am trying so hard to move to the Netherlands to be able to ensure that I can properly take care of my family. Something that is even further behind than how America treats working moms, is how America has this standardization that the mom has to be the caregiver, and being a working stay at home dad get even less work life balance. I have been told that I have to keep my job and my wife has to take care of the kids. But that shouldn't need to be the norm.... My wife is a Dr, and I want to be able to support her and my family in the best way I can....
In Slovakia is 24 weeks paid support for mothers and after that you get a smaller sum and your position stays reserved for you. For me, Netherlands is not a perfect example in Europe. Sometimes I think they are overdoing this dutch example of perfect ☺️
I think quality of life matters and the wealth of the nation and how well it’s spread out.
Positive vibe: checked ✓
Nice choice for background music
16 weeks paid maternity? 18 MONTHs paid in Canada. Universal Healthcare, Stress is still high though because the Children are influenced by the USA and Kardashian's. 😂
this world deserve kardashians regardless nationality.
- alexander hamilton
In Germany, we have 6 weeks maternal protection leave before birth and 8 weeks after. Those are obligatory and there are another 12 months paid leave (60% of previous income) that can be taken by one parent or split between them. The employer has to grant these voluntary months and during the entire time, parents cannot be fired. We do have to reduce our living expenses, but as a new mom, I feel very protected and secure. My son is 8 weeks now and I couldn’t imagine leaving him already.
1:20 ... I want a friend to hear this.
Cool
I am living in The Netherlands. My baby is now 8 months and since she was 2 months old I am working again (luckily ,,only'' 2 days a week) and I am struggling with it as I also still breastfeed. I don't believe this system is good and every mother should have the possibility to stay home and take great care of her kid/s for at least a year of two. It's really sad how so young children in this country are taken to a daycare like it is completely normal for a few months old baby to just ,,get used' to the lack of physical and mental closeness with his mum or dad. I feel often weird and alone here because I see it differently.
My son was born right before the pandemic and I was lucky enough to still be living with my family at the time. My partner and I had to live with them for 2 years after my son was born and I will forever be grateful to my family for that although it was very stressful at times, not only did they get to bond closely with their grandchild but I also got to be a stay at home mum for 18 months. I received money from the government and my partner worked part time + studied. So we saved up a lot of money and eventually moved out. Now we have a beautiful apartment, I work three days a week and my son goes to daycare twice a week which at this age is perfect for him.
I think there needs to be more support for mothers and fathers who choose to spend the first few years raising their babies into toddlers, once toddlers reach an age where they would like to explore more independently that is usually a good time to start daycare in my opinion, for the child and the parents.
@@Charelhuisman I totally agree with you 👏🏼♥️ I am happy you have such a great family and that you were able to spending enough time with your son ☺️
I am also dutch and totally agree with you! I lived in Ghana for the last year and could combine my work really well with raising my daughter so I only had to leave her once a week with my husband. We are almost going back to the Netherlands and I already feel stressed about getting back to work there again. I am now trying to just work for maximum 20 hours so 1,5 year old daughter can stay with my husband 1,5 day and 1 day with my parents/inlaws.. We love to have a second child but I already feel sad because I might not be able to stay with that child as much as I did with my daughter. I hope I can maybe take a longer leave or even quit my job again when we are getting a second child.
The dutch saying "doe maar normaal dan ben je al gek genoeg" DOES NOT translate as 'take it easy'. It literally means "act normal and you'll be crazy enough". it means 'do not stand out of the crowd'. It is used to discourage people, kids especially, to stand out in any way. Her nice mom apparently only said it in the context of her kids setting the bar to high. But most often it is used to discourage exceptional kids from being themselves and behave more as any average Joe. Don't be the best, you'll be the weird teachers pet. Don't be an artist, you'll be weird. Don't dance on the side walk, you'll be weird. Don't wear your prettiest dress, but on the normal one, it's not your birthday.. It stems from the protestant culture where being boring and average is seen as a virtue (and a sign of modesty, but modesty and being average are very much not the same thing). It is one of the least cool parts of Dutch culture. Please do not idealize this very normative folk wisdom..
I agree, im dutch and hate this saying
Agreed!!
This meaning of this saying changed the last decades. Now it’s about being yourself and not to have showing off. Expats in the Netherlands mention this very often. No need to buy expensive designer clothes or drive fancy cars. That kind of things.
that not at all what it means suzan, it means there no need to act out to stand out there no need to buy expensive clotrhes or cars to impress someone, and most of all it means be yourself don't try act out and try be someone else.
@@basvanderwerff2725 I really like your version better.. But I generally got told to be less myself and more boring. don't be expressive, don't stand out. blend in, camouflage, behave. And I know for a fact that many other people who stand out by being themselves were told repeatedly to act normal. That we are already too weird when we tried to blend in, no reason to go fully be yourself, you are already acting crazy.. I guess it depends on the context..
you already say it means 'no need to stand out' but for many it meant 'not allowed to stand out'
A maternity nurse?!?! That would have been lovely 😭
Please where are the dads?
Exactly! And the discussion about Paternity leave...
Where I live (Estonia), the first leave (3 months) is only for mothers as it's meant for giving birth and physically recovering from it (officially a special kind of sick leave). The actual paternity leave (next 33 months, 15 of them paid) can be taken out by either parent (and it can be switched around, so that dad is home first and then a few months later mum takes over or vice versa). There's also one month that's just for dads.
not the lady typing on her computer which is turned off, she must be hella stressed not to notice
Romania has 2 years, free health care. It may help, but I can say there are not as important. The video only compares with USA, but in Europe is normal. So maybe as a sociologist she could focus also on other things that are important. Like better jobs, higher paid jobs, education on parenthood. I live in Romania where the child leave is 2 years, and can be taken by the dad or the mom, free education and free healthcare for children untill 18, and I can tell you that mothers are still as miserable as the USA ones, the children traumatized, yelling and beating being normal for raising children here.
Excellent point.
@@maryanneevans8812 I mean maybe it has some benefits, but as a sociologist I would expect a more deep understanding why in the Western European countries, parents are more care free and they are more educated in parenting. They really have smaller parental leave than other European countries. I would have expected of a more bigger picture. Is very unidimensional this view, and is just compared with the USA.
Did you know the USSR had a similar policy? I worked with a woman who lived in Soviet Russia and I think she said maternity leave was three years. 🤯 (Of course everyone was somewhat poor and they had completely different problems but...) How embarrassing that the best country on earth can't do better than it does for mothers than freaking Soviet Russia. Lol
@@missloretta Thats because the USA isnt the best country on earth.
@@missloretta Maybe it's because in order be the best country on earth, ie. have the largest economy, companies must actually expect their employees to earn their salaries? Remember, nothing is really free. Would you rather have three years maternity leave but no groceries at the local market bc the grocer also decided to take the month off. Government hand outs put you at the mercy of the government. Stay free. Stay capitalist.
In the US a lot of mothers will be afraid to ask for help from neighbors, friends, and family because everyone is eother expecting to be paid back for their help (in money or deed) or fearful that they will be expected to pay it back when they dont have the money or time. I dont have kids and offer freely to babysit for the parents in my friend group and they either over pay me back by cutting my grass or apologize profusely for not paying me back. I remind them it is free and that i do it because i love them and their family, i value their physical and mental health, and one day that child will be my nurse, my banker, work at the utility, or whatever and supporting their parents happiness suports theirs and society.
It’s the ideology of extreme individualism by which many Americans pride themselves “pulling yourself by your bootstraps” and hence why socialism, or communities working together, is frowned upon.
At the end of the day it’s large corporations pushing such ideologies to benefit from exhausted people but we as Americans consume these types of ideologies as ABSOLUTE TRUTHS….
@@nidiashalabi2036 I think you said it perfectly. And this sense of individualism leads to selfish behavior. Not only coveting more than your fare share, but also taking weird pride it taking the whole world on your shoulders and suffering for it. I am not Christian, but follow a humanism ideology as much as I can and I have come across a lot of distrust when you offer something free and clear. Also, our family is better off than a lot of our friends' so when we want to go out on the town we have to beg our friends to let us buy all the movie tickets or pay the bowling game fees.
As a woman in the US I have no idea how women manage having children and a job. We have to work so much just to afford to have children at all and then we have no assurance of maternity leave, healthcare or childcare. If the economy tanks (again) and you lose your job you lose your healthcare and you certainly can't afford childcare so that you can get BACK to work. And the vast majority of families cannot afford to have the mother stay home because wages here are so low. What the hell are we supposed to do? Many people my age have opted out of having children and the birthrate is going down and people try to guilt us for it. Well if you want me to have kids then make it possible to do so without being in poverty or working 3 jobs!
i live in the Netherlands and before this l lived in 8 other EU countries and l can safely say that Netherlands is behind when it comes to child care and maternity/paternity leave. in germany a woman gets 1 year of leave and father gets around 2 months. also, health care is way better and all encompassing in germany. same goes for kindergardens. in the netherlands you need to throw over 1000 euros/month per kid for kindergarden which forces one parent to be a stay at home or both parents to work part time since they simply can't afford kindergarden 5 days/week. i will definitely move out of the netherlands if l ever plan on having kids. so i agree with many comments here - why the netherlands? we get it is better than USA but everything is better than USA. take a better example.
So true! I live here now with a 8 months old baby and I am not happy that I have to work. Luckily we can share the care. We have tried the daycare but I stopped it because it felt awful. I wish this could change here.
@@monikaklempirova2535 i heard that the government is planning to change this and make daycare free. because people are moving away with their kids or simply can't afford it. hope they do it asap. if taxes are so ridiculously high, they could at least offer some support
@@ladianaify that is true. I think it could happen quite soon. At least some support for those that have to work much.
I dont know who you asked but my husband and I both work 32 hours. Both our girls go to daycare (we use a 'gastouder' / 'host parent') and yes we pay more than 1000 euro per month they go 3 days a week), but we get a lot of childcare benefits. I believe when you deduct benefits, we pay around 100 euro per month, which is nothing! And we do not make minimum wages btw.
This reminds me of Klein’s “good enough parent” concept. 😊😊😅😆
I don't understand the reasoning why a country wouldn't protect the well-being of children and mothers. I'm from 'the poorest EU country ' and we have 4 weeks before the due date and 1 year paid maternity leave, a second year less paid, but still paid leave and an option for a 3rd year maternity leave which is not paid but your job position stays secured. Out childcare could be significantly improved, but it is there...it so available...and the public kindergartens are free. So if a country with a fraction of the GDP of western EU countries and USA can do this why don't these 'well off' counties don't?! The science and experience has proven over and over again that the first 3 years of life are crucial for the overall development and health of a person, yet it this period is so neglected....
Because the US is run by corporations not people, and the dollar is valued higher than human life in all cases.
What is this with slow motion of walking up and down stairs?
Lmao
Dutch culture is amazing!🌟
Don't tell Emma Louise. She'll throw a hissy fit in her room in the parents' attic.
Isn't the Scandinavian countries examplary in all aspects of welfare of their citizens.
Yes but they pay quite a bit more tax which is distributed to ALL - which as a Brit, I would welcome, but the vast amount of Americans I debate with in the comments, would hate this system.
Can only answer for Sweden, yes we pay taxes to have free school and lunches for our kids, to not pay that much for hospitals visits (depends on why/what help you need) and we have the possibilty to be home for a total of 480 days, parental leave. I do look forward to this, this summer when my baby is due.
Hope you are not thinking tge Netherlands are a Scandinavian country because we are not.
@@ankavoskuilen1725 I have only just spotted that 🤔. Perhaps the original poster is not European and the groups of regions are very confusing - like the balkans etc.
@@ankavoskuilen1725 The OP is clearly not, that’s why they wrote “isn’t”
What is with that awful selection for background music?
It’s free.
The music volume is too high for this video. The crescendo in the piece is competing with the voices of the speakers. Smh
My child is only 2 and I’m already stressing about what school they will go to. Most people in my state go into debt to put their kids in a good elementary school. But do I move away from my village to find better education and job opportunities for my child?
I think they overstress mothers as (main) caregivers a little. In countries that have introduced parental leave (i.e. for parents of all genders), parenthood has become much more of a shared experience. In general that means that fathers become much more involved parents (often leaving work for a few months to concentrate on their children). This leads to a (truely) shared responsibility and workload, even when both parents are back at work. Knowing that your partner is an involved, reliable and responsible co-parent also relieves stress and guilt.
Btw., this also leads to shared custody after divorce being the norm (doesn't seem to be so common in the USA if you believe the comments on UA-cam).
the background score could be so much better.
The title is incomplete, more relaxed than the US yes? That is ultimately the benchmark this video is comparing the Dutch to.
We get pretty good parental leave and paid days in Romania, but mothers still get pressured to do the bulk of the rearing of children. When my coworker's daughter gets sick, it's never her husband who takes sick leave
Well, I am a Dutch mom but it is not that relaxed to be a mom here. Compared to America it is definately better here in the Netherlands, but for example being a stay at home mom is very expensive, a total of 4 months maternity leave is very short, especially when you breastfeed. I see a lot of moms quit breastfeeding when they go back to work and a lot, a lot of stress for both moms and dads to keep up with all the work, the household, the childeren, and all other social activities.
In Croatia maternity leave is one year and in Hungry two years!
Living in Germany 🇩🇪 we have all that important things we need thank goodness 😅.
It's quite important to remind our selves to learn from other cultures and societies, but the music reminded of Evangelion, this isn't a bad thing, just funny.
Also it's good to remind mothers about options for them to choose and also fathers or caregivers in general, for without individuals themselves deciding their preference and stating openly their opinions knowing that they are valid and important for change to happen more easily in a peaceful manner; now I remember the singing revolution, there might have been parts of it that weren't peaceful but it still is a great inspiration for a way of expressing your passion for an ideal and achieving happily!
I think the music was mainly Vivaldi.
As the father of twins, I have no idea how it can be hard looking after/raising 1
Lol/
The loud “background” music makes me wonder if this is really BBC.
In Austria, women are not allowedto work in the weeks before and after child birth. they get paid during that time. paid parental leave is at least one year and up to three years.
what are the 3 r?
In the UK you can have 52 weeks of statutory leave
I like that about the UK.
but it's not all paid.
I wish it was more normal and easier for mothers to choose to be a full time mom. America is horrible with just the force to work. What if I don’t want to? I say my children should have me as much as they desire. What happened to being able to be a stay home mom. Honestly America makes it impossible nowadays to have one spouse working and other handling the housing needs.
And many times if your spouse does work and you stay home, your spouse works long hours and barely gets to make a connection with the children. Either way the odds are stacked against non-wealthy (most) American families
That’s it. I’m moving to the Netherlands.
I would advise a little bit more research, as many countries in europe have even better conditions. Most have more affordable childcare, some even free. Dutch schools are definitely not at the top of europe, partly due to a mayor teacher shortage that was problematic 3 decades ago and only got worse instead of better. The ' system' for kids with any kind of special needs has been on it's ass for over a decade and does not show any improvement but is still sliding backwards.
It is easy to look great compared to the madness of the USA. But compared to our neighbours we are no way the top of the class. We are sliding backwards in many respects. We just have a lot of rich people that can compensate for government failing and make things look better than they are.
Well, that was not exactly my childhood experience in the Netherlands. My mother was unpredictable and explosive... And years of therapy later I'm still not recovered.
This documentary was not about your mother. It was about society's laws to make parents have more time for their children. Sorry to hear that your mother was damaged somehow and in turn damaged you. That should never happen. But it happens.
I'm so sorry to hear that.. I know how traumatizing it is. I was forced by the social to go to therapy since 8 years old, until I was 18. Did it for free, that's Sweden's system, but hell I'm still scarred
@@sarak7855 It helps if you really learn to trust someone, I have noticed in others (fortunately my parents were good parents).
@@ronaldderooij1774 if you don't have first hand experience you dont have a word on it
@@ronaldderooij1774 never said it dosent help, it just isnt enough
In India we have upto 6-8 months and paternity leave is only for couple of weeks time right after child is born
It's horrible for corporate women and still mother's try to do their best. It's a viscious viscious cycle
16 weeks is meant to be good?!? Bulgaria and Romania have 2 years
I didn’t tell my employer I wouldn’t be returning before I had my first child and they called me up after 6 weeks like “so, when you coming back?” I was in the thick of it with a colicky baby, I could have screamed are you kidding me?! Luckily I was never going to return but I couldn’t imagine have to go back to work ever let alone so soon. But then again, my husband studied and worked hard in an in demand profession so I wouldn’t have to.
Ohh wauh…im so sorry to hear this 😢 in Denmark we have 1 year of parental leave. It obviously have an impact on the society as a hole… you get more stressed responding citizens… a fight flight response that can involve guns in the US, when the level of stress is higher.
That's why there's a lot of Karens in the US. The gov't neglected their job to protect the mothers and that's why the anxiety and stress are high.
We still need an explanation for all the Shanuiqua's though.
Reagan is the explanation for that. He gutted the last strand of federal help for childcare to “stick it to the Welfare Queens” when it reality - it was just already underpaid working moms and laboring families that took the biggest hit.
@@AS-js9gi slavery, that’s what brought most of the black folk to America
Dutch women are the original Karens. Just wear clothing that they disapprove of in public and wait 5 minutes lol.
Same reason
In Germany we have 14 month of payed leave (60% of your salary) after childbirth. It feels „normal“ to us, i am always suprised that this is an exception, Not the rule.
Learning about the Kraamzorg is what made me become a doula.
I would have thought the Dutch maternity leave was longer. In canada we get 40weeks. They only get 16!
This was a bit biased, I noticed. As someone who knows a lot about American culture and some about Dutch culture, I know that things aren't always as they seem.
Also, I am an American that lives less than 20 minutes from my parents. I did this intentionally to be close to them. I have a young daughter and a baby on the way.
It's important to mention that some people's parents aren't around- have passed, or in my situation, my mom has Alzheimer's and has never really been able to help with my daughter. I am an American that sees the importance of staying near ageing parents.
We have 6 months maternity leave in Israel which I always thought was not enough. Now I have a new perspective
Ooh yes, the infamous "American-family-values".....enjoy......(from The Netherlands and btw: it might be common to have nannies take care of your kid[s] but only when you can afford it....)
Who tf has a nanny in the Netherlands?
@@AS-js9gi America expats
I am a 58 year old Dutch man, and I never, ever in my whole life heard of a kid taken care of by a nanny. How???