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How much does Flemish Revolution really cost you?
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- Опубліковано 14 сер 2024
- You say you want a revolution, but at what cost? Maybe those Flemish Militia aren't as cheap as they first appear.
0:03 Flemish Revolution basics
1:20 Do villagers lose what they're carrying?
2:02 Creating a general model for the tech's opportunity cost
3:35 Adding on the cost of new villagers and the tech's cost
5:15 Overboom to 200 population
6:00 Adding more TCs
7:15 Closing thoughts / is it overpowered?
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Patreon: / spiritofthelaw
Background music from Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsou...
Game: Age of Empires II Definitive Edition
Ah yes, my favorite Econ unit: Villager*seconds
That's been the gold standard for AoE3 for comparing economic homecity cards for years
Its the GDP of the medieval era! Since life were so short...
Jokes aside, man.hours is often used in IRL management, especially when dealing with tasks that can be done in parallel.
@@FromMyXP it is a staple of industrial production sector. Mining, services and agriculture don't exactly scale proportionally to it if I recall right.
Labor hours is a value measurement as defined by Adam Smith
Did you research Flemish Revolution?
Yes.
What did it cost?
Everyone.
New strat: Fast Castle -> 16 TCs -> Flemish Revolution Flood -> Resign. Need this mastapiece from Viper.
He's played Flem Rev many times - he rates its OP. Tons of videos of this on his channel.
@@ghaznavid we need to see the optimal 16 TCs boom no military flemish mastapiece tho
He’s done a 200 pop then Flemish Revolution. No reboom but it’s not needed ua-cam.com/video/4yCcAXw0lEw/v-deo.html
16 Tcs is not optimal at all, the TCs cost would create an unnecessary bottleneck that would slow down the revolution too much, or even make it impossible. Flemish Revolution is perhaps strongest on Arena, where you can go into a boom after contesting map control in early castle, and thereby stave off pressure until you can get a castle to help, then transition into imperial age, etc. Usually 5+ TCs in that build, but 16 would definitely be overkill. Another thing to keep in mind is that it's much harder to produce from 16 town centers at once, especially from scratch, compared to just 5, 6, or 7. 16 villagers every 25 seconds is 32 food per second, and you'd probably need thousands of food in the bank to maintain villager production, which would take too long and again ruin your timing.
the purpose of flemish revolution is either as a way to win or a desperation attempt to win so actually the value of a flemish revolution is difficult to put in raw numbers for example in a desperate fight you have a lot of villagers youre losing you switch to flemish revolution to fight back and win the defense sure it does give an economic debuff however its better than no economy at all then as a way to win the value of a surprise army is bigger than you think depending on the enemy flemish revolution could actually be a discount due to the amount of damage each militia does
While this wasn't the point of the video, I think a nice way to think about it is this: long term you might be paying more, but that extra cost covers the instant 120+ increase in army size that otherwise would take a lot of time and/or castles. You're paying more for faster shipping.
jeff bezos intensifies
Economi 101
$100 today is more valuable than $100 tomorow.
You are just paying the interest for the revolution
It's more than just faster shipping. There's a massive qualitative advantage in a game like Age of Empires to having just more of a unit. With 120+ military you can generally completely overwhelm an opponent, especially if they've been making melee units. What's more, chances are you'll do so with fewer losses than you would if those units were created normally, which is another place the advantage comes in.
actually the value of the 120 army is very much in the fact you get a whole 200 unit army to overwhelm the opponent
it gives you an army instantaneously perfect for destroying the enemy swiftly
It's a good thing the Burgundians have farms that generate a little bit of gold as well, that way you can sent all the new villagers to just farms without thinking at first while you micro your giant army and still get a little bit of gold in the bank for when you need to start making regular army again
wait, if i put a rally point on a farm... and i have like a dozen farms, and i queue up a dozen villagers, will they fill in the farms or will they sit there like dumbasses?
@@keithsvenson568 I believe vills looks for unoccupied farms nearby if the one they're sent to was already in use, so they should disperse on their own (atleast for a little while)
If you have queue 20 vills in each and 4 TC set 3 gather points to farms and 1 to wood and go micro army. Eco will be decent when you look back after wrecking half their base.
I love how, intentionally or not, you demonstrated the basics behind the concept of 'man-hours' and renamed it 'villager-seconds'
spirit of the law posts 3 days in a row
best week yet
The hidden cost in case of overbooming with 200 villigers may also be bigger delay on starting to rebuild your economy since you need some of your flemish militia to die before your town center start to work and since you have to go with them from center of your base to the enemy base then I feel like it may be significant. Not sure though since I never played online and can't grasp how long it would take for that march.
Yeah, but then the counter argument is that you probably have way more resources banked up, so delaying your reboom won't hurt your continued military unit spam that much, and you don't have to start rebuilding military immediately, since you only need to replenish military when you're going under 100/120 military. So even if the cost is expensive, your prior economy was also insane, that also yields more resources.
You’re going to lose units very quickly (while also killing enemy units very quickly). Not much time is lost.
You either lose units quickly (pop limit is not a problem), or you are winning blitzkrieg style (no need to reboom).
@@hylkebron4288 he is talking about housing population
For what it’s worth, this isn’t a thing that happens in a lot of games. Not meta to pick burgundians in order to revolt.
But math is fun!
it gets even worse: usually when you go for the revolution you are pop capped to give your push maximum punch. So you most likely cant really boom back immediatly.
true, but then your opponent also has to deal with 200 military units at the same time
I mean if you are pop capped when you do it, you will almost certainly win as there is almost no way to hold a 200 pop army
Economy: “Everything.”
I think it all depends on what your objectives and current position in the game are. Let's say in a 1 v 1, If there is almost no gold/stone on the map, you can easily use this tech to instantly field a large army which will decimate trash units. In a teamgame, with trading gold income present the usability of this tech almost entirely falls off.
That is an excellent point. Its a lot like Malay Trash Two-Handed Swordsmen.
But conversely, in a 1v1 it rebooming is almost completely untenable whereas in a gridlocked team game a sudden influx of 100+ units could tilt the match in your team's favor, and you could even be slinged back to full boom again.
@@jefffinkbonner9551 Also, the (50+) trade carts would remain unaffected by the revolution. (They could of course morph into coustilliers... 11)
Flemish Revolution costs a bit of your soul.
most of it.
It's T90's favorite tech, and really compliments the three-archery-ranges-on-an-island strategy.
It would be interesting to see how many villagers you would have to kill (against a 120 vill enemy) to bring the cost down to the normal amount (with 5 TCs).
You haven't accounted for the fact that are getting an interest free loan for the units. You only pay for Flem Rev after you research it - so you are ahead on resources for a while before break even point.
What if you have some fishing ships/trade units? How will they affect the cost?
I, too, am now curious about this.
It's pretty much the same. It doesn't get affected. How are your maths?
It moves up the starting line In the graph (3:29) This make less area of cost opportunity and more area of effective working while rebooming, additionally, deletes the first section until 25s that is depicted as triangular but, as SOTL clarifies, should be rectangular. Also, reduces the final cost of villagers production, since you have (let's say) 20 fishing and 20 trade units = 40*50 = 2000 food
fishing ships dont really help in the way it is shown, they just help you to actually pay the food cost of the villagers bc they continue working.
The only difference is that instead of rebooming to 120 vils, you might want to create less, so it lowers the full cost of rebooming, so it does help in that regard. But nothing besides that, you still lose the same number of villager*seconds.
my question now: does the Flemish count as villager regarding spies, or do i make the enemy pay 200 gold for an op tech?
Spies is still expensive after your enemy researches Flemish revolution
Isn't it 200 gold per enemy vil?
Converted vills to flemish guys still counts as a villager regarding spies so it’s gonna be as or more expensive than usual, since they overboom.
This would be a nice perk for the opposing player if it worked that way
Lol “Why is Spies so cheap?” *click* … … … “Bring me my brown pants.”
Burgundians feel like a good candidate for the long forgotten series of comparing civ bonuses and real historical events.
I would run a few simulations to gather up a sample size of what it looks like when you charge your military and an extra 120 militia into an opponent during an all or nothing blitz. Maybe you can get a median value of how much economic damage you can inflict and maybe what units would best supplement a massive militia push to maximize the damage they do.
BBCs and a maybe a treb or 2
Fun Fact: The weapon of the Flemish Militia is called the "Goedendag", which actually translates to "Good Day" (like the greeting). It was used by the actual Flemish militia during their revolution against the French, where groups of militia men would walk around and say "Goedendag" to people and if they replied with a French accent... well...
cool trivia and nice delivery ;)
Lol so Ukrainian "Palyanitsya" thing (word than Russian-speaking supposedly cant pronounce right. Sadly, not only huge amount of Ukrainians even in central Ukraine are native Russian speakers, but even many of native Ukrainian speakers fail at that damn word) is not new and actually old European tradition
Could you do a breakdown of the age of mythology gods. I loved that game and it would be cool to hear your thoughts.
Yes please!
There is already a youtuber that does this, but sotl knows how to do this very well
@@R3dux7933 who?
I guess he will if Age of Mythology DE comes out :D
Protoxx Extra is the Age of Mythology equivalent of Spirit of the Law. He isn't quite as good as Spirit. But the lads pretty darn close
"borrowing from your future economy to pay for a large military now"
FREEDOM INTESIFIES
nice
This was easily my fav quote in the video
Incredible video, Spirit of the Law. I hope I can bring some interesting ideas to the conversation as follows:
The cost is over time, maybe you could have compared it to a continuous production of military (to compare with the cost your enemy is gonna be having at his part).
The other thing would be nice is to discount some possible units and buildings you destroy from your enemy. Since you are at a 1v1 matchup, the real cost is [what you spent] - [what you destroied]. That also factors your enemy idle time and villager kills too, since you will have a greater army (200 out of 200) is expected the Lanchester's effect, this gonna be massive.
I think hard numbers like these in this video with no comparison to the destruction you might ALWAYS achieve (since you have such a massive army) is miss leading to the audience and downplay the true effectiveness of the tech itself even if you and I agree that anyways you have a economic huge drop by this move.
Other 2 points: you forget to calculate how great of a food income you will need to make 16 town centers work at the same time. This should have some food bank behind that would be unmanageble. The other point is: you can't create any villagers until your soldiers die, so the gap between the research and the villager creation is way bigger than "from moment zero until 120 villagers". Maybe some 3 or 4 tests in real 1v1 matchups (get by replay) could be enought to see the average time you spent since the tech until the 120 villager (because of population limits this is almost unmeasureble in pure theory I think).
At least would be nice to mention some of this points in a future video in this topic if you think I'm said at least 1 thing right (hope so, you tell me :)
Cheers, I'm a big fan of your.
I'm glad you mentioned AoM because the tech has often reminded me of Ragnarok for the Norse.
How is it that the best aoe 2 channel is basically math of empires? Thank you so much for the content defiantly made playing online less intimidating.
I kind of expected you to calculate how much damage you need to do to justify the cost if the game drags on. Like if you decimate their army and kill 40-50 vills, then was it worth it over-paying since now you both will be booming back a bit
Realistically, if you don't kill almost all of their villagers or almost completely decimate them, it's not worth it. You have to be able to boom back faster than your opponent and you had zero villagers when you attacked. Your real target, should you fail, should be TCs and villagers, as just killing the villagers, they will recover faster than you.
If you kill their entire army and still have many militia its already game over, unless you just let them reboom
There's also the 50 food to make all the villagers in the first place who 'become' Flemish militia. Assuming 120 villagers that's 6,000 food that you've sunk into getting those units.
Also, if you're pop capped you can only reboom when units die. Of course, this usually won't be a problem, but on water maps or very large land maps where travel time to the battle is longer, you risk being pop capped for longer, especially if you're churning out vills from 10 TCs.
I can only see it being useful to speed up finishing off an enemy who is already on their way out with a final surge to overwhelm them.
Such a great video, as always. I love your content and it got me interested in the game after a 10 year hiatus!
But what would the cost be to add 120 units to your military in just the time it takes to research the tech? The costs to add those production buildings, buy the units, and lost resource gathering from the villagers tasked to building would far outweigh these costs.
the point of the analysis is to show the tech's long term cost is high.
Villagers themselves don't build faster than barracks units do, particularly after you have conscription, and barracks are much cheaper than town centers. (only 175 wood, 50 build time)
The efforts put by you man. Just amazing.
I was talking about you in the comments of my most recent video and then you actually upload. Nice.
I love the way you are calculating and explaning the results!
graphs good. info clearer than ever! keep doing them pls mr sotl
The additional attention required in getting your economy back up and running is a hidden cost here that would be tough to calculate. Basically, the opportunity cost of where you could be applying that attention instead of building your economy back up - even with gather points. Thanks as always SOTL.
There's almost no attention required. Just send vills to farms while clicking TC + vil hotkey every minute and once you have all farms covered, grab 20 vills and tell them to build a lumbercamp.
I like having new and different units/techs/mechanics as long as they are balanced!
Nice vid! The concept of "borrowing from the future" is super interesting, and a very nice way to explain how modern, massive, corporations were built through credit in the early 20th century!
This is very powerful tool as long as you clearly see where you can invest that loan to gather high profit with very high certainity. Otherwise you double screwed than if you'd gamble on your own free funds, yet in Age of Empires you cant "lose twice" so this is less important. Enterprises also just bankrupt and most founders probably will not be burdened with full loan sum to replay. Yet country of individual person can and will be burdened in the case of bad risky loan. Thats why this is common practice for business yet must be used very very sparingly by ordinary people or by governments. (Governments actually sometimes do the opposite and hide some money in the reserve fund so they can be used in the times of crisis instead of let them burn on overgrowth of economy only to shrink again when good economic period ends, for example when main export commodity will fall in price)
Doesn't that math also make the cost of EVERY unit when at popcap insanely high? Every popcap you reserve for a unit is a permanently lost villager, so even a 0-cost unit costs you 1 villager second per second.
yes, but when you should have most opgrades needed when popcapped, and begin flooding resources so it stops being a problem
That's exactly the reason why a military unit idling around, not attacking the enemy, is worse than an idle villager. Optimally, you and your opponent would play a peaceful game without any military, because the existence of your own military hurts your eco. However, the enemy's military hurts your eco, too, so... you gotta build military, grudgingly so.
It's fascinatingly similar to real-world politics. Nobody wants nuclear weapons, but... even if you don't want to, you are too afraid that others do.
If you have too many villagers, the value of the resources they gather goes down due to abundance.
You just can't spend the resources as fast as they come in.
If you then also factor in the reduction of your ability to protect yourself, you might have to allocate more of your troops to defense instead of attack, reducing your ability to combat your opponent.
An exception is the tower spamming strategy since towers aren't affected by PopCap. But even then you must remember that converting resources to stone is not very efficient late game.
As said above, in practice in a real game not building military can mean that you take more damage in raids and attacks, potentially to the point where your economy is worse off than if you hadn't built any military. Its why you can't always fast castle and win - you need military to protect your eco.
At high populations the same logic applies - having too many military units means your eco takes a hit and you might not be able to come back from a lost fight, but not having enough and having too many villagers means you lose fights and then can't defend your eco.
you are right to recognize the tradeoff, but its more complex than that
Me as a scientist I just absolutely love the way you use math to such a great extend. Your videos should be the answer to every pupil in math classes who asks "what the hell do I need this for?"
Every 60 villager seconds per second, a villager minute passes.
The biggest value to this is that you get an enormous army all at once, which can give you much more value since with the huge number advantage you can destroy any army and take few losses (lanchester square law). If this happens which it often does, you win the game. Even if you dont manage to take out your opponents military completely, you can kill a lot of villagers while your opponent is stabilizing.
The cost of Flemish revolution is just the advertised plus the definite integral of the difference of the functions representing the number of villagers, over time.
I dont understand what Will be a razoable (viable in random map where Stone is limited) number of tc to revolution to be worth It.....
Help me, sotl, please
8:20 Another good calculation would be a chart mapping amount of food you need to stockpile vs. number of TCs built to achieve a seamless vill production. For example, if I stockpile 1000 food with 10 TCs, I can make 20 vils in 50 seconds. In the first 25 seconds I will earn 0 new food, in the second 25 seconds I will earn 24 x 20 = 480 food, almost enough to start the next round of vils (I should probably stockpile 100 or 200 extra to account for lost food from initial walking time to the farm). The next 25 seconds will make me 24 x 30 = 720 food, comfortably allowing me to do constant vil production now. (But what if I want army too?...) Would be nice to see that as a chart.
I think considering the cost of something/bonuses as villager seconds is the coolest thing you've ever done. It's great because it normalises all resources (and makes it so you can easily adapt generic buffs to your individual use cases) and gives you an easy way to incorporate build time, walking time, and other more nebulous aspects of a villager's work time. I'd be very interested to see a video breaking down the various eco upgrades/bonuses by what you get from them in villager seconds, and I think it would be a more objective analysis of unit and building cost to convert their resource (and in the case of buildings, their build time) costs to villager seconds.
Hello spirit 😊
Thanks for the good quality content, as always!
Really useful
This time though I have a minor comment to make. When you say (ans that's correct imho) that you pay a small amount and a big amount later (in the resources you don't collect) I think you are missing a key factor there (for your model) : the inflation in the game.
You did a previous video on that in the past and I think it has its place here.
Indeed 100 wood now is not 100 wood in 10 minutes, but rather 115 or 120 wood. So when you say it costs 15% more than making the actual unit, I think that it's actually way less: you get instant army now (with a certain value) in exchange of (lack of) resources later. That might be interesting to have a look taking that factor into account 😊
If almost maxed out and planning to reboom, it makes a huge difference if the villagers pop the moment you lose your eco, or 25s later. Those 25s are 120*25=3000 villager seconds (= 1200 food) in gathered resources lost, given you reboom fully. Also villagers are desperately needed in pushs, building military buildings or generally building stuff that you might need. So in general I would argue strongly for creating villagers asap, about 24s before the tech kicks in - even if you do not plan to reboom.
151 ressource might be much, but burgandians are the ONLY civ that can "borrow" res. thats what makes it so unbalanced - the borrowed power spike.
It's like the selfish version of Cuman Mercenaries and Paper Money
what if you garrison the villagers, do they change as well?
Yes
I think that one thing that needs to be taken into account here is that most of the resources "spent" are actually still sitting unharvested in your forests farms and mines. It costs you time (the most precious commodity of all) but it doesn't deplete your lands.
I want you to know how much I love your outro music (it's a lot)
What's missing here is obviously that you have to apply Lanchester's Law to the 80 pop vs 200 pop battle you get after using the Revolution! That is what makes the Militia worth the premium!
Real Math: ewwwwww...
Aoe2 Math: fascinating...
Real Math: i dont understand this
Aoe2 Math: i pretend to understand this
It's how economists, physicists, and other applied sciences avoid the Calculus rabbit hole whenever possible.
Each rectangle on the graph is 25 sec by 5 workers. So the area of each rectangle is 125 worker seconds.
The first jump in the graph generates 1 such rectangle, the second produces 2 additional rectangles, the 3rd jumps gives 3 additional rectangles and so on. As each jump adds 5 Villagers, we need 24 cycles of villager production to get your 120 workers
Therefore, the workerseconds lost is:
Area of a rectangle × number of rectangles =
125 × (1+2+3+...+24)
Recall the first formula created by the mathematician Carl Gauss when his grade school teacher wanted to keep the class busy by having them add the whole numbers 1 to 100: 1+2+3+...+n
= (n/2)(n+1)
So 1+2+3+...+24 =
(24/2)(24+1) = 12×25 = 6×50 = 3×100 = 300
Back to computing total worker seconds lost:
125×(1+2+3+...+24) =
125×300 = 37,500 worker seconds.
---------------------------------------------
Why does the formula
1+2+3+...+n = (n/2)(n+1) actually work?
Consider the original question of
1+2+3+...+98+99+100
1+100 =101
2+99 = 101
3+98 = 101
4+97 = 101 and so on.
Adding these outside pairs of numbers always yields one more that the highest number in our sum, 100+1 or in general n+1.
Clearly the sum 1+2+3...+98+99+100 is adding up 100 numbers.
each sum of 101 paired up 2 of the 100 numbers. Thus, there are 100÷2 or 50 pairs, or in general, n÷2 pairs.
So the formula is:
(number of pairs) × (last number +1) or (n/2)(n+1)
The problem with considering villager-seconds as "lost" work time is that "not gathering" and "gathering then spending" are two different things.
This is most notable with gold and stone, though in some games it *could* be an issue with wood as well. You're gaining 25 gold per villager (as well as 10 food but that's a lot less important) that's essentially for free because of how much the gold cost gets spread out across the sheer number of villagers that get upgraded. In fact, I could be persuaded to considered the Revolution one of the most efficient ways of trading food for gold in the game!
This "25" gold per villager is not being added directly to your stockpile, but it delays the mining of further gold, stretching out the reserves you have at your disposal for longer, creating an effect where you're delaying your trash switch for longer. If the revolution itself doesn't turn the tide of the game, being able to create champions and/or additional FM while your opponent is forced to switch into trash units may just be what does turn the tide of the game (though as per one of your previous videos I will point out you are forced to make FM against Magyars).
I don't feel like actually doing the math (or coming up with the original constants, for that matter), but I think that the Revolution may be a good way to stretch out your gold, even for the 26k opportunity cost.
It's a pretty insightful point to consider the Flemish Revo as borrowing money from the future. I think besides taking account of the full future cost, it may worth also considering the damage that Flemish Revo could have done to the opponent instantaneously. For example, say that this tech costs around 20000 (future/opportunity) resources but does 10000 resources worth of instant damage to the opponent, in a 1-vs-1 scenario this could end the game, and the future cost that we are considering here won't be as relevant. Probably a way to address this is to factor into the winning probability after researching Flemish Revo as well to fully measure the risk/cost of this tech.
Just a thought experiment that pushes it to an extreme: say that there's a hypothetical tech that lets the player borrow 1,000,000 resources instantly to build military units but you have to pay 10x back the amount in the future in a form of mortgage, and just say that statistically this tech give you 95% win chance instantly. I think most people will end up taking this tech no matter how expensive it is.
Keeping an eye on the spies cost would tell you if a Burgundian opponent has researched Flemish Revolution. Precious seconds to react
Nope, spies accounts for Flemish milita. Also the game literally tells you that the opponent researched Flemish Revolution, so it's not even necessary either
_Uses Flemish Rev_
*Economy: Adíos*
Very nice video, maybe you could take into account the late game when there isn't gold on the map anymore ?
Maybe you could make a video to see how flemish militia handles trash units (as you did with the champions) as well.
You made this economist very happy with your graph of opportunity costs.
You can also consider cases where you have lots of trade or fishing ships, since these do not get converted.
The question is, however, would you reboom back to 120 villagers? Assuming Flemish Revolution is among the last technologies you research (you'll be in imp and you should've at least fully upgraded your infantry in the blacksmith to make the most of it) there's a big expense you're not paying for any more, and that's all the upgrades. There's also the fact that a lot of people have excess wood or food by this point and also, crucially, that you need 120 of your own army to die before you have the pop space for all those villagers, and Flemish militia are fairly sturdy. FR is a good way to recalibrate your eco and gear it towards the needs of a late-game army, and I don't know if this video fully covers that.
This tech can only be fully appreciates if you've seen Leon the professional.
"Bring me everyone."
"What do you mean everyone?"
"EVERYONE!!!!"
Literally every military unit has this opportunity cost... Every military unit you produce puts your future eco behind because you aren't building more TCs and villagers. Framing the economic cost as a multiple of the accounting cost doesn't make sense without doing the same for other units.
It would have been better to frame the cost as "How much damage do you need to cause with Flemish Revolution?" You need to cause more damage than you could with 55k villager-seconds spent on other military (optimal decision criteria). In addition you probably need to do at least 55k villager-second damage to the enemy to 'break even' assuming the enemy has a similar economy (increase probability of winning criteria). But the rate at which you need to do this is the same shape as the opportunity cost area, i.e. you need to do a lot of damage up front, less so as you get closer to the old 120 villager number.
That's about all there is to say about the cost of Flemish Revolution, all the other stuff is exactly the same as any other military production choice.
I like that re-booming is non optimal yet possible option. In Age of Empires 3 before DE you plain lose ability to build villagers after revolution, and you only ever receive reinforcements if you collect enough exp from killing enemies to receive shipment. If your push is failed, you can as well resign. But in DE there is so much work poured into revolution mechanic, and now each revolutionary state have a different proportion of how much they are relying on initial push. There is even nations whose villagers become even more effective instead of turning into soldiers, and there is Finland with perfect balance that receive Carelian Jagers instead of villagers, that pretty equaly useful at fighting as well as at gathering resources.
Remember that those 16 TCs can now be used to pump out massive infantry pushes after you reboom, which is nice.
Obviously you get the tech after the map is mined out and you dont have any use for villagers anymore. And then let them die so you have more room for trade carts.
if we being methodical gotta also account that an army of 200 military units vs 80 causes a much better K/D than 80vs80, so it also saves military recreation losses, also saves on having to do many barracks, etc. ALso not accounting that sitting on 200vills before going rev you're also getting 80vills more worth of resources
It comes to mind that this is probably more of a 1v1 tech; the reason being is that in the late game of team games, a good chunk of the population that would otherwise be villagers may have already been transitioned to trade carts. I haven't gotten this expansion yet though, let alone played many games lately, so I can't say for sure that this is what realistically would happen.
Given the relatively high cost of getting trade up and running, if one were to indulge in the Flemish Revolution in a team game, then would it come before or after investing in trade? Assuming at the massive influx of military doesn't win the game.
If you opt to get Flemish Revolution before trade, then you indeed might have those 100+ villagers. That, however, should make getting to trade harder since trade carts cost gold. You might not have as much gold available (unless you managed to maintain a good stockpile of either gold or enough food/wood for using the market) to invest in trade if you need to completely re-boom with villagers.
If you opt to get Flemish Revolution after trade, then you might only have ~80-90 or so villagers being converted to the Flemish Militia. That could drastically increase of potential per-unit cost of each militia. At least you'd already have trade going enough to compensate for not needing to re-boom as much?
There may be a middle ground while trade is starting up before villager count starts to really go down over time, such as ~100 villagers with ~20 trade carts (just throwing out numbers to make my point). In that case, you at least have some trade going to generate the gold needed to make further trade carts. Of course that is at the expense of an otherwise more optimized number of Flemish Militia.
There is definitely some kind of trade-off to each situation and I suppose it could just come down to how confident one is to be able to re-boom as needed.
That just something at occurred to me while watching. It would be interesting to see how these scenarios could be calculated into "actual" costs in terms of resources or villager*seconds of work.
I want SotL's intro back!
flemish revolution is great fun in team games, whenever i want to use it i build a few extra TC's to help build more flemish militia//villagers tis great fun in team games having 10+ TCs to help reboom and keep up the flemish pressure
Question: Did all this calculation also factor in the original 50 food cost of the villagers that became the militia?
Why would it? You make villagers anyway.
from when did u start uploading this frequently?? Much love
The effectiveness clearly depends on how many of his villagers you can kill/expensive buildings you can destroy in that push.
Unless you do it to someone in post imp with anti-infantry units, the answer is usually "a lot". It's particularly strong on maps like arena where you can time it so that it's basically impossible for the enemy to match you in military.
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I mean a good Onager management may also be pretty strong against a mass of infantry.
Though it's certainly DRASTICALLY stronger than the AoE3 equivalent which can be easily countered with units everyone has access to.
@@rovsea-3761 it not work well against post imp goth, hé can counter by.a endless flood of trash unit.
Aoe economics is exactly what I needed
I think a good tweak to this tech is to have it only apply to garrisoned villagers. So you have 120 villagers. You garrison, say, 90 of them, research flemish revolution, ungarrison your 90 flemish militia to cause mayhem. Meanwhile your other 30 vills didn't end up going to the meeting in the union halls, stayed in the fields crossing picket lines to work haha!
You could then decide exactly how many of your vills you want to "keep" an how many to transform and send in! It'd be a lot more strategic and a lot less "all-in" or gimmicky.
Addendum: assuming you having 80 farmers (which seems reasonable when you go for this strat), during the research time of Flemish Revolution (10 sec), you gather ~250 food.
This is a game ending tech, it's indeed really strong
5:05 It also doesn't consider the time it takes for villagers to walk back to the resources they were originally collecting. That's definitely going to be non-negligible. In terms of villager seconds t'd be 120 villagers * average time to return to work after production. I'm not sure what that average would be, but I could easily see it being enough to lose you a few thousand villager seconds.
this is such a good freaking game. Ive been playing for 2 decades and im still not sick of it
Try and queue up some villagers at your TCs and research the tech right before the first wave of vills is spawned, it cuts a little reboom time.
4:15
Speaking of, should we also consider the massive discount you're giving your opponent on Spies?
Ooh but now I wonder: what about Lanchester's law?? Superior numbers could offset the cost when compared to militia units.
The only problem with the 30 TC calculation is that your not considering the time you gain from the 10 minutes rebooming of the 5 TC. I think that you have to evaluate not only each triangle on its own, but rather evaluate always a certain time. If you reboom in a 1/6 of the time it means that the remaining 5/6 your actually collecting resources normally Wich is a huge advantage compared to the full 10 minutes reboom
Can we get updates overvies of some civilizations?? Some of them could really use a rework ! ;)
Interesting analysis as always, but (correct me if I'm wrong, please) for the effect of building additional TCs to mitigate the impact of FR, have you also taken into account the villager-seconds needed to actually build them? Seemed like you only factored in their cost, and not the resource gathering time "wasted" by TC builders (though that would make things more complicated, as you'd have to take into account the nber of builders for each TC)
I think its important to mention the impact this will have on your enemies economy aswell. Obviously this cant be put into difinitive numbers (sad, I know), but every eco kill you achieve equalizes the economies a bit. Like, sure you lost 100% of your eco, but if you kill 25% of the enemies you could count that as a 25% reduction on Flemish Revolution. Destroy some buildings and enemy army too, and the resources get ever more even.
If you manage to equalize the resources spent on vs eco damage inflicted you are arguably even in a better position, because theres a gap between your eco beeing damaged vs the enemies. By the time your army is finished you will already have yours going again.
But thats all theory obviously.
I think this undersells Flemish revolution, since for the time you have the tech you will be making all fights you take spiral down for the opponent, making it take damage it certainly wouldn't take if you didn't have that many units at the same time. I.e if you kill 60 villagers of the oponent in the process, things get very different.
Still, cool video.
It doesn't under or over sell. It simply shows you the hidden cost.
While I haven't played this civ, I think the true advantages come in 1 or 2 uses: while your opponent has a small army early in the game (shortly after castle age) OR when you've had your eco booming for some time and already have plenty of trade, food, and wood. With 8 TCs you could rebuild back to 60 farmers 60 lumberjacks fairly quickly. While it does have a high cost no matter how you use it, I've seen it decimate early in the game and the cost of using it later is really not that high (considering 60k+ of every resource is huge compared to the 6k food to rebuild).
And I suppose the 3rd use is a last ditch effort to save your town and drive the enemy back, but at this point you've probably lost anyway.
I rarely play 1v1s.
SOTL is a complete madman for going over these calculations 😂😂 I like it.
Seriously though, the tech is not overpowered. It's just frustrating, because it gives one player the power to dictate the next few minutes completely. Age was always about the sweet dance of moves and countermoves until one player wins.
If this was a board game, this tech feels like an angry kid scrambled the board and your only choice is to scramble it back and hope he gets pissed and walks away crying instead of slamming the board, screaming "NO, I WON", and claiming victory.
"Villager seconds"
*stares*
That's an integral.
Oh my god, we've officially broken out AOE2 Calculus.
Doesn't take into account at all that Flemish Militia don't need any prerequisite upgrades, creation time, production buildings compared to all other units.
example: Champions - need maa, lsw, 2hand, champ tech, 7-8 barracks, and 21s to produce each unit. Here you get 100-200 units at a really discount price, 0s training time, 0 upgrades needed to unlock.
12-16 town centers, 160-200 villagers, got it!
Burgundians also have one of the best fully boomed economy especially in hybrid maps. So that's something to consider long term. It's at least comparable with Persians Aztecs Mayans Malay Khmer Aztecs Viking Celt Teutons and Slavs. In fact it's probably top 3 imo
Interesting.
So strategy wise I'd say it's worth it to plop down TC's in locations close to resources rather than build camps. This lets you play more defensive against enemy raids. And you can use hit/run courtiers and retreat back into the TC's range. Will be difficult for enemy to get many villager kills.
So basically a defensive playstyle focused on booming and very light raiding on opponent just to keep them busy. Get up to 120+ viliagers, keep the raiding/defense while you stockpile resources.
Plus if you are pop capped you will only be able to rebuild Villagers as fast as your units are dying, made even more complicated if you still have military queued up competing for that pop space.
It would probably be better if it cost a bit more, but the army you generate doesn't count against pop so you still have to sacrifice your economy and reboom but have a normally impossible sized army for a short time or have the ability to have say 150 vills, turn them into 150 military and build an aditional 250 military instead of rebooming at all and really just make it a one use gothic flood in a can
This is a very good analysis. But we all know that after this militia rush, its either the opponent resigns or we do.
Keep em comin Spirit!
I gotta disagree with one thing here. With Flemish militia you will ALWAYS do damage simply through massive numbers. Even if the only damage you deal is wiping out the enemies armies and some castles and you are unable to attack their resource gathering, just by being able to push them back and retake some control of the game and some extra land can easily be a major help and turn the game around for you.
considering the guaranteed damage of Flemish militia and the possibility of just outright ending the game with them but at the very least the fact that in the long run your militia will win any fight they are in with less resources lost and they will also take out plenty of enemy buildings you are certainly costing your opponent anywhere between 20% and 100% more resources than were invested into the Flemish militia (if they were built normally) and that's without eco damage.
You forgot to account for the lost villager/seconds for building those additional TCs.
Hmm, there's also the resources gained by overdoing villagers beforehand. Imagine for example, you're iSit, and you don't military because attacking is scary. The longer you get away with having too many villagers, the more you're gaining, and when it looks like "Ok, I really have to do something", you have a button to go from being overwhelmed, to overwhelming, and you keep your ill-gotten resources (that a higher ELO player probably wouldn't let you have). (Edit: That also fits his style of banking up a lot of resources without spending them till he knows what he wants to do with them.)
Did you figure in the extra resources you'd be bringing in by overbooming before researching the tech? And I know you figured in TC resource cost, but what about build time?
In any case, it kind of looks like you ideally want to end the game with your Flemish militia push. If you fail to end the game, needing to boom back will always leave you at a disadvantage, although your push with the Flemish militia might leave your opponent in an even worse position, so you could still end up ahead.
One time tech that relies on either last resort push or you failing the match, that freezes your economy and you also must be facing a cavarly civ and hopefully the enemy isnt stomping through your base with archers or something like the Teutonic Knight.
This might be among the weirdest and inconsistent unique techs out there and i wouldnt miss it if it was exchanged for anything else really.