The worst part is that they're all... kind of the same? Like, each power is occupied by eldritch entities trying to bend the world to become more like them. Sure, they have different flavors and aesthetics, but ultimately their actions and goals are nearly identical, just with different colors. It's just a boring conflict split across three axis without much nuance or subtlety separating them.
Kind of the point however, showing that following anything to extreme will change who you are. You can not devote yourself completely to something and remain the same person. And, in the Warcraft universe, it was the conflict between Light and Void that birthed everything. So of course one completely winning would be bad.
Precisely, every single force of the universe is in an unending crusade for dominance over the other. The only reason the Light, Order and Life are treated as good while Shadow, Disorder and Death are treated as bad is for the simple reason that their interests usually line up with the continuation of the existence of Azeroth's inhabitants.
I still can't see the appeal Blizzard is seeing in some crazy dimension. If they dispensed with the cosmology then they wouldn't have to justify the existence of the 'Old Gods' except for them being old simply for the sake of laughs and lore. They double down on the idea of all things 'good' being good and all things 'bad' being bad. Let's ruin that image with some non-WoW characters to show Blizzard how full of shit they are. Death from Darksiders - an agent of balance who just so happens to be the grim reaper and is still the good guy. Dante from Devil May Cry - a half demon that would be the envy of Deadpool in guns and puns. The Hunter from Bloodbourne - hunts beasts who USED to be human, sometimes with their own blood. Shadow from the Sonic series - a half alien hedgehog to an eldritch being, apparently. Kratos from God of War - he killed all of Olympus and a couple titans with his anger. Ratchet from Ratchet & Clank - this alien fuzz ball's entire arsenal looks like human weapons smoked way too much netherwart at college. Jak from Jak & Daxter - dark echo made him a menace to the dark makers and the story behind them and echo is more simple than half of WoW's cosmology. The knight from Hollow Knight - most people know/knew literally nothing about him and the game is still fun and simple. Blizzard feels like they have to be so over the top with the cosmology they forget the fun factor of their own game and are poisoning their own characters and knee capping their player base because it's apparently their story, not the players' stories, which is a bad investment and a damn shame because the players and the characters are being dragged along for an unpleasant ride.
@@altersol7255 Except one of the key details in Warcraft is that there isn’t a good and bad. There are plenty of “evil” light users and “good” Void users, because it’s Order versus Chaos and not Good versus evil. The light’s nature is not better than the Void’s at its core, it’s just more passive and comes off as more well intentioned.
@@jaspervanheycop9722 and they did steal from Games Workshop when they used the base concept art from the Tyranids to make the Zerg! And this was back when Games Workshop was working with a younger Blizzard Entertainment to make a game that never full release and they used the assets they did make to make Starcraft!
So.... The entirety of Warcraft's world has has the equivalent of 6 god like entities that can ruin your life whenever and however they please? Did I get that right, because holy Fuck is that scary. I enjoy serious stories, not Nihilistic mad ravings.
its not always that bad tbh its kinda light on that stuff and imho takin the story for more then anything above a B movie to watch with some pop-corn then it gets a bit meh. but I still enjoy it=
Think of it like this.... it looks fun to visit, but you’d never want to live there. It’s like how Warhammer 40k works: it’s a hellish dystopian future that no one wants to live in and all the sides want to kill you.
@@shizachan8421 They do show it. In Legion Turalyon is so obsessed with the light he was possessed to the point of following it to the T. In the Mag'har Orc when you unlock that race you see them as zombies of light, either brainwashing others to join or force you into a permanent point in time like a statue. When you play the game they explain a lot in detail about the balances of power as arcane. Even classes warns you of the abuse of power and all that even how you can lose yoruself if your not careful with it.
Imagine being screwed over by things you cannot control, have little care for you and your needs, think that you are inferior to them in every way, and are a daily part of your life. Yeah, imagine that
Jesus, I never knew WarCraft had let their cosmology get that ridiculously grim. Even Warhammer 40k has the hope of spiting the Gods and killing them. I mean even Bethesda was smart enough to know that they needed multiple confirmed heavens to balance out the Super Rape Hell they put in the Elder Scrolls.
@@Dragonshade64 I think that would be Molag Bal's plane of Oblivion, considering rape, being a form of domination which is within his realm, being his thing, which is how he made Vampires, raping and killing a woman before resurrecting her as a bloodsucker out of spite towards Arkay.
@@Dragonshade64 Well in the Elderscrolls universe you can still become a vampire via being bitten and turn into one by an existing vampire. The extremely nasty hitch is if you really, and I mean REALLY want to become an ultra powerful vampire (without having to go through centuries of gaing magical knowledge and power) you have to conduct a specific ritual that summons Molag Bal himself were he then...r*pes you to death only for you to rise again as a terrifying, *"pure"* (came from Molag directly) vampire almost as strong as the very first vampire, Lamia herself. Oh and as a vampire you're soul automatically goes to Molag Bal were if you're killed as a vampire you'll spend the rest of eternity being horrifically tortured in *"Coldharbour",* Bal's realm of Oblivion and possibly r*ped again and again by the Deadric Prince...for all of eternity. So yeah...not a pleasant fate for anyone, it's pretty F-ing messed up! To have people be turned into a vampires by horrible Molag himself is something only the most depraved, power hungry or crazy of souls would even consider.
Normally when Lily talks about warcraft, I'm happily confused about everything shes saying. Now I'm just confused, why is this so unnecessarily complicated!?
Loll I know absolutely nothing about WOW but I love her rants bc they make me question the media I consume. And also I like listening to sarcastic women yell about things 😂
Well if we are talking the cosmology? Moorcock. Specifically Micheal Moorcock's division of Order and Chaos as the fundamental forces behind reality in his collective fantasy works. Which were used to explore existential questions like agency and free will. The problem that just about every single High Fantasy to follow Moorcock borrowed/stole this concept. It would be apt to describe many modern high fantasies as a fusion of Moorcock's cosmology and Tolkien's world building. And just like with Tolkien it tends to get....Over-complicated as designers make surface level Sonic OC changes to the concept and then play it straight without a forethought to the issues this creates. Take D&D which started as the Chain-mail wargame by lifting the Moorcock's order/Chaos idea as a shirts versus skins binary system and latter adding good and evil with all the subtly of a war-hammer. Which yes also stole the idea wholesale. These designers and writers add needless complexity thinking it makes the role of these cosmologies more interesting....It does not.
The damage has long since been done from what Lily says. I've been putting off getting into WoW for a while now, and I'm really glad I just got into Warhammer instead, at least that's a Tolkien Rip-off with flavour, as opposed to whatever the hell WoW devolved into.
@@Britonmarie Ghe new writers are ascended fanboys, it's the curse of popular franchises. Eventually your talent pool for new creators and developers are the same people literally grew up consuming your IP and thus take their cues from it in their own work, it turns almost creatively incestuous how it keeps twisting in on itself.
They have new devs and writters. The original Blizzard team has left the company long ago, and they have rebuild a new company, they planned to make a new and modern RTS.
Almost happened to me with Supernatural. In middle school my friends and I would write fics about the characters, but I stopped watching around the 6th season. 45-minute episodes with semi-likable characters and a heaping pile of angst + Someone that zones out easily and hates angst = Im taking the character into a sandbox, and never leaving to watch the source material. When the last season came out I was tempted to watch, but got bored again when I didn't really understand what was going on. Guess I dodged a bullet with the ending being terrible according to the entire community.
I played a 30 day trial in BC with a friend showing me around the game. I went to Undercity and we passed Sylvanas. I asked my friend "Who is she?!" He replied "She's the Queen of the Forsaken" and then proceeded to summarize her character. I fell in love with her back story (didnt play warcraft) and started going through her lore. She was the character I resonated with the most, and I thought when she became warcheif that it was a way to regain purpose in her life, and she could start bringing the factions together with her story being brought to light by all the main characters in WoW. I share all these frustrations moving forward as all the main characters still treated her like a monster, even allies. I still play WoW but knowing Sylvanas has been in the Maw leaves Dragonflight feeling empty.. the issue with fighting elemental dragons is that there is no depth to any character, even the aspects. It's as if Shadowlands was so botched that Dragonflight was pushed to distract from all the character assassinations that took place and I found no ends to any story satisfying. It's clear that this art has been hijacked and the nostalgia IP is what keeps the game relevant, but as far as nuance there hasn't been much moral dilemma for the player to empathize with since the Culling of Strathholme. I was so excited for the potential that Shadowlands presented. It would have come full circle that Sylvanas was taking things to the big stage and "This world is a prison, and I will set us free" confirmed my suspicion that she was working in the shadows to go big. I mean.. that's what I would do if I was put in her position. I can't die, the cosmology of existence sucks, and everyone is ignorant and blindly killing each other in a cycle of war.. so.. Sure, you can't have World of Lovecraft but you can allow characters to exit the stage gracefully and with honor. She was one of the main faces of WoW and her backstory resonated with so many people, and the writers projected their inner ugliness onto a highly relatable character. It makes me want to break the Helm of Domination in Blizzard HQ "This studio is a prison" It would have been more honorable to have her not become warcheif and be in some remote area living with Nathanos.. OR JAINA! :D! Where you could occasionally visit an isolated cottage away from it all to gain insight with lore or do some quests. Sylvanas and Jaina duo to stop the Jailer like secret agents to double cross him to make their own reality that doesn't make the cosmology so ass anymore!? That would be more satisfying for her story to dupe the one that gave Arthas power, out-wit the self-proclaimed wittiest, and then reshape reality (Goddess power go! Why is it always sky daddy?) Thank you for making these videos and channel! I never realized there was so many fan-made novels with actual compelling stories until I found this channel. ^_^ Eternally grateful.
I once tried to explain warcraft cosmology to my friends... One of them said "That doesn't make sense!" And I responded with "Congratulations, that means you're a sane person!"
Judging by this video's title, I assume you're next upload is going to be called water is wet. Most likely followed by fire is hot. And, finally, concluded with sand is rough and coarse and gets everywhere.
So, part of it is the fact that in Warcraft, everything was born of conflict. The biggest one is the Light and the Void, and it was from their conflict that everything was born. Of course this leads to issues with the two, as everyone was given something from both, to completely devote yourself to one will destroy the things the other gave. To put it loosely, the Void have you free will, basically your mind, whereas the Light have you faith and morales, basically your heart. So the more you follow the Void, the insaner you get and less your heart has any say in your actions; where as if you follow the Light more and more, your heart blinds your mind and you do whatever you think is right and righteous with increasing zealotry. Basically, every power has a price associated with it, and the more power you want the deeper the price becomes and the more it will change you. So do you align yourself with one of the forces and seek to help it win, or do you stay in middle knowing that while the other forces may temporarily ally with you against others forces, you are eventually on their shitlist.
I agree, the cosmology chart plotline needs to go. Get Metzen back in if possible and drop this thread of cosmic plots that get weirder and more abstract every patch. Go back to focusing on the WORLD of Warcraft and the characters there that we love.
Oddly, from what I've seen and been reading, it kinda feels like that's the direction they're going in. Azeroth is turning into some Cosmological Afghanistan where the great powers bending the universe to their will are getting broken one by one.
@@damienhailey118 Even that doesn't feel believable. How a bunch of frickin mortals can do what supposedly SUPER intelligent, ULTRA powerful godlike beings couldn't do because they apparently have only one metaphysical brain cell between them! It's always felt jarring to me that such entities that have supposedly been planning their returns for like a billion years gets their cosmic machinations undone in less than a year by some random schmucks. It's also hilarious in a bad way that these cosmic forces keep popping up literally every other year like some colossal conga line of DOOM.
So what you are saying is that WOW has become Warhammer 40k without the sheer hilarity of its childish edgelord cringe? By the Emperor that must be horrible.
Warhammer 40,000 was at its best when it wasn't taking itself *that* seriously. When they snuck in black humor and could have a laugh about how goofy it all was.
As the cosmology and most of WarCraft's elements are almost whole cloth copied from Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy, I am not surprised whatsoever that it's the weakest element of the series.
They didn't even did a good job at coping them. Warhammer cosmology is way less convoluted than Warcraft, you have two realms: the material world and the warp. Everything else derivates from how this two realms interactuate between them.
@@paugarcia3684 Actually it's hinted at and even outright stated that there very well maybe many, MANY other realms of ever increasingly alien realities, such as the weird and horrific stuff that happens around the so called *"Ghoul Stars"* (in Warhammer 40K) that has nothing to do with the Warp or anything from the main material plane (similar physical reality in 40K to our world), it's just the two mentioned here are the main focus, the axis points were the majority of the stories within the setting revolves around.
I've never played World of Warcraft, but as a Shin Megami Tensei fan I can relate to the feeling of being immersed in a world based on an eternal conflict between 2 fractions that are either a fascism regime with little to no freedom or being trapped in a freaking wasteland surrounded by demons. It's pure dread, but at least you can burn it.
This is why you reduce the scale of your conflict. This conflict is simultaneously too massive in scale to comprehend or get any nuance out of it and easily solved by throwing one person at it. What's the point? What's the appeal? Does anyone even have free will at this point in Warcraft?
"despite the infamous cycle of abuse only affecting a third of abuse survivors" this is news to me. I always thought they all had to unlearn what they went through as not okay, and breaking the cycle was always a difficult and arduous process. where did you get this statistic from? i would like to know more.
I’m reminded of that one scene from the Percy Jackson where the one gay main(ish) character gets tortured by a god until he admits he has feelings for the main protagonist. Yeah, I feel super seen Ricky. Thanks for bringing that up. Ps. I’m talking about Nico.
While I don't play the game why does any of the magic need to be explained, it's just magic and the lords or whatever could just be powerful creatures or whatever, if it must be explained to simplify it and make it less nihilistic just make magic a universal force and fell, arcane, nature and whatever else is just how they do the glowy stuff and what their glowy stuff can do.
It makes no sense, either... Back in the day, warlocks could use 'fel magic' because they tapped into the demon realm, and all their class-specific quests were related to controlling it more and learning not to get too sucked into that dark energy or face the consequences, and it made sense since they were the 'dark magic' class and the other classes all had their own stories about controlling their magic... Now every magic is evil somehow and you should feel bad for playing anything but warrior or rogue!
@@thegamesforreal1673 I've always wondered how do aspiring warlocks even tap into the Fel energies, like do they leave out a tasty treat filled to the brim with arcane sugar crystals in the hopes of attracting some random demon? Even then how does one capture a demon? Wouldn't atleast the more intelligent demons know mortals try to ensnare demons and thus wouldn't be easily fooled. Can demon simply refuse a summons? (tell the person trying to summon them to sod of!) Were would they even get the knowledge to do all this?
@@navilluscire2567 Well, in the vanilla class quests for the warlock, we learn that anyone with a bit of knowledge of arcane magic can learn summoning. Tapping into the fel is almost the opposite of casting arcane magic. Arcane is order, fel is chaos. They are the same kind of magic taken to one of two extremes. As for demons. Weaker demons like Imps are easy to summon and control. They simply do not have the willpower to resist most summoners. When one first summons a stronger demon like a succubus or a felguard, they have to be actively subjugated and bound, usually by defeating them and binding their soul to yours. After that, they can be summoned at will and are automatically bound because of that connection. The warlock always summons the same specific demon whenever they summon a succubus again. Then there's the greater demons like infernals, doomguards, or even nathrezim (dreadlords). These are incredibly strong and also have an extreme force of will, wanting only to cause chaos and destruction in the mortal world. They can be summoned and subjugated by an exceptionally powerful warlock, but will eventually break that hold and run rampant. Only warlocks working FOR the burning legion can summon these creatures without great danger to themselves. We see some instances of a demon being summoned and then just ignoring their summoner's commands. An example if this is the demon Jaraxxus. The more cunning and intelligent of demons can also break subjugation by only 'technically' following their orders but also doing some side things that will usually end up killing the summoner.
Need to let go hun. I let go over 4 years? Ago now and haven't looked back. The story took a complete suicidal nosedive after Lich King, destroyed my hometree and pissed all over the one woman that will not bend the fucking knee.
@@Dragonshade64 the fact they spend the first part of the series harping on the idea that she’s the villain in this can’t be easily ignored. It is the same in the comics, this girl clearly needs some help but people just try to kill her over and over. It’s legit disturbing how in the same cinematic universe Loki is given a redemption for his crimes (which you could easily argue are worse) but Wanda is demonised every other scene and it’s upsetting to see. The only saving grace in the show is Monica and I really hope she gets to Wanda before anybody else does, she’s legit the one person who seems to genuinely care for Wanda’ health and safety
When I watch those videos it really feels like the most you can do is to clean up your little niche to make this world a slightly less bad place and to hold others accountable who produce BS like that as well as be accountable yourself for your own actions.
Your videos about WoW always make me want to try the game more and less at the same time. It seems there are a bunch of cool things, but also a bunch of horrible things, and so far I can't tell if the good outweighs the bad enough for me to enjoy the game.
Interesting thoughts. Did you heard about series of games called "Disciples"? They REVEL in the narrative "all gods and cosmic forces are HUGE bastards and assholes", and actually creating a good story with it, reminding of greek/norse myths where almost all gods do - is to behave worst way possible.
A lot of this reminds me of how Jagex has to tiptoe around the gods with its 'player story', especially after adding 'The Godless' as a faction. Letting players side against these destructive manipulators lead to the majority going 'KILLEM ALL!', and the focus has shifted towards picking favorites as they in-fight instead.
But- Lilyyyyyy I’m emotionally attached to you for the same reasons you’re attached to Slyvie. You’re the one person I always check to see if you’ve uploaded because I love your content and personality too. Honestly, you’ve helped me through so much trauma the past 2 years. I thank you really, for everything.
I've recently been watching a bit of Lily's content. I will say that while I don't agree with a lot of what she says, it is nonetheless entertaining. :)
I recently got into wow just before shadowlands launched and so far I’m loving it, but I tried looking up lore so I could understand the current story and I’m just lost. The story seems so sporadic I have no way of keeping track of everything
The joy/suffering of WoW is that it abandons the previous expansion like a hot potato when a new one comes out. How did Zandalar handle the global Legion invasion? Who knows! How’s the regrowth effort in Darkshore now that it’s been retaken? Dunno!
is it against the rules to ask if you've ever branched out to other mmos? Not to recommend any, im just curious if theres any game you would be willing to escape to if the writers grind your investment into the dust
Also I feel like most conflicts come not from the forces themselves but from beings who dive too deeply into the ideals of said force and that the path to peace is learning too embrace the values given by all and to not delve too deeply into one more than the others
Hilariously enough, that chart is missing the Twisting Nether. The realm associated with Fel that we've known about for much longer than the Shadowlands.
Hearing Lily Orchard describe her favorite WoW character as “A broken, miserable nihilist who sees little value of life and less of hope” has just explained everything.
Lily, you dont need an intervention. You need a gigantic hug. We all love you :) Its not your fault a gross greasy twat of a man villainised an abused, traumatised woman cos that shit is NOT ON. He did your comfort character dirty and that alone is a crime.
Make a video about the Night Fae campaign and how dumb it is for a Horde Druid - who took part of burning Teldrasill and Invading Darkshore - has to save Greymane 2.0 from her own stupid actions.
Isnt the too attached to characters issue of ongoing stories lasting incredibly long but? Also makes it worse when they mystery monger. A lot of characters I got attached too and still am to an extent lasted in a series that ended or moved on from them, or the character didn't do much when their arc was completed.
This makes me want to cry. I got more into wow to play with my friends and because I like Sylvanas, but the more I learn about the story the more it hurts. Why is the writing so... hurtful? It's like it's on purpose, it's too many coincidences otherwise. I really am only playing because I raid with my friends nowadays and making an effort to not pay attention to the story otherwise I'll fucking cry myself to sleep. It hits too close to home. Jesus, Lily, I don't know how you stand it.
I don't know how others may take this, but I prefer not having villains be redeemed. Not unless it seems logical or they were given a good backstory reason to be redeemed. I like it when there is a villain who is so cruel and despicable that I can say "yeah, you are cool...but I still want to kill you and I will laugh while doing so." People wanting the Lich King to be redeemed is more of a fan stroking themselves and getting off on the idea that such an abhorrent monster could be magically forgiven so he can do it all again. The Lich King is not Joker and even Joker doesn't get a full pardon.
Christ this cosmology is existentially bleak bordering on unpalatable grimdark nonsense. I believe the trope Darkness Induced Audience Apathy is very appropriate here.
Crazy, chaotic cosmology? I'm in, that makes Warhammer 40k great. It would make Warcraft great too, if it wasn't for blatant retcons about said powers powerlevel, intentions etc. Same issue with Warcraft's characters.
Same here. I love cosmic forces that are beyond mortal understanding existing in fantasy settings, but it's the kind of thing that can (and has, in WoW's case) spiral out of control. Having them be behind everything that happens and all take a keen, selfish interest in the affairs of mortals are the main issues imo
@@VoxTenebrae That's exactly what makes Chaos in both Warhammer settings, 40K and Fantasy so great and compelling. (most of the time..) The Runios Powers, the BIG 4, The *"gods of Chaos"* are certainly powerful, beyond any mere, pitful mortal's comprehension and they do have their grand plots, and elaborate machinations within either of the material planes (Fantasy's planet, and 40K's galaxy respectively) but...they are definitely not behind literally everything that goes on, only mostly sinister opportunists with occasional schemes of their own coming to the forefront. The Chaos gods, Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle, and Tzeentch may embody facets of the entire emotional spectrum and represent broad conceptual themes as cosmic forces of nature within their respective spheres of influence but...they are NOT the source of these things, mortals are, they simply take such notions and ideals and build on them in their own twisted sense, they are these things, these concepts incarnated as perversions of human thoughts. The thing about Chaos as a cosmic threat is that it's a problem that cannot be defeated by conventional means (if it even can be defeated), it's NOT some saturday morning cartoon villain that a band of plucky, overly positive, colorful adventuring heros can punch in the face like some lowlife thug, the gods are forces of nature that cannot be overcome by *'blind' (keyword)* idealistic bullsh*t or overly preachy messages about friendship. (but friends can help one through great hardships still that doesn't stop the tribulations from coming)
I know this sounds condescending but I kinda feel like in relation to everything you said about the cosmetology being horrifying is That’s the point Religion and deities are usually billed as sources of comfort and love but really just forces with agendas that want to consume you to further said agenda Some forces present it as beneficial and sometimes it is (light, order, and life) some deceive you into thinking it’s beneficial but really isn’t and only helps itself (disorder and maybe void) and others are up front about it knowing you’ll fall anyway (death) The story of the cosmo is realizing the hypocrisy and refusing to fall for it and just taking the parts that support what you want and leaving the rest either by defiance or breaking free of the manipulation
That's great, but that's not what WoW's writers actually do. The Fel, the Void and Death, sure. But the Light and Titans are up to some fucky shit and for the most part WoW is unquestioning of it.
@@LilianOrchard oh ok I always thought illidains story was the light part of this especially the part with him killing the naru and no one really giving him shit about though I may be wrong cause I haven’t seen the rest of that storyline
Well I didnt understand you are talking about on the last part but the main theme about cosmology did enlighten me about topic´s I might have miss or not considering as crucial. Honestly as the time progress I am less and less interesting about WOW history as it get more and more complicated while not able to finish any of its current plot but adding even more question ( with the Cosmology one of then), I just pray activision dont fuck warcraft IP and/or allow for new games on the franchise to come ( with a possible new rts or maybe diablo like style for that matter, would be a good fresh of air). But yes, Cosmology is very wacky. I just wish they could use to expand the narrative on good ways and not create death/torture cicles pointless plot holes that will neve be explain on a satisfactory way.
well now I'm pleased that I never really paid attention to Warcraft's lore. to me it was always just the game with the boring humans on one side, the cool orcs and trolls on the second team and the necromancer on the third (I like the third most because I always tend to like undead and necromancy and liches and stuff)
The cosmology idea was actually something that Metzen made, in order to solve the whole fragmentaded cronology problem, in Lore. Chronicles 1, 2, and especially 3, does an amazing job to organize that. Some of the informations weren’t 100% efficient, but it’s makes a sense of cohesion and continuity throughout the franchise. I’m a Lore dude, and the main reason I loved Chronicles is that Metzen was fully loyal to the basic element that WoW was unique above other fantasy franchises, especially Dungeons and Dragons: there’s no “cosmic war” between this deities (sort off deities) like in D&D, where there is a whole separate universe directly connected to your alignment, etc etc. Even the cosmic part of this universe, like everything around the cosmology like the Burning Legion, for example, has deepth. It has characters, and they actually have objectives, goals, etc. You can actually see this by looking the cronology from even before the criation of the universe, to Pandaria when the whole picture can be seen, so it’s not hugely necessary for you to make a convolute explanation, because it’s all connected (at least, 95% 😅). However, with Metzen leaving Blizzard, every single person that is working on the Lore is missing the whole point of WoW, and what we are receiving since Legion (and even WoD) is a Dungeons and Dragons’ rip off, where characters actually never really mattered at all (bazinga 🙄), or even more deeper writing problems. That pisses me off, as a player and as a fan. Since Metzen left, guys like Ion Hazzikostas and Steve Danuser came just to bullshit the whole big picture, making the community as a bunch of clowns, disrespecting all the rules, and rewriting Chronicles for be what the fuck they actually wanted to be in that instant. Honestly, since Legion, WoW is 100% non-canon. All the rules were broken, and the essence of the story was completely abandoned by the current writers. (PS: English is not my mother language, so apologize me if some of the things I said weren’t exactly clear 😅)
You should play ascension if you like WoW so much. It’s WoW but free and there are no classes, you pick whatever spells you want. Other than that the only difference is that it’s like 10 years behind in the story.
During my very, very brief time actually playing WOW back in the day, I'd never even given that much thought to the world's afterlife outside the occasional trip to the graveyard. Turns out it's way bigger than I was expecting it to be 😅
As a former Sylvanas stan, I agree pretty hard with most of this. I loved her up until Edge of Night came out, because it felt like her characterization totally made sense up until that point, but then she killed herself and got some real bad news about where she would be winding up in the afterlife, assuming that what she saw wasn't some illusion created by the val'kyr she was dealing with at the time or whatever. But after she got scared of winding up in the Maw she started really doing some terrible stuff, such as bombing the Gilneans who were dealing with a civil war and an outbreak of a plague of their own at the time, and then I was totally out once she set Teldrassil on fire. It really upsets me that they've taken her character in this selfish direction where she's seemingly only interested in getting herself a Get Out of Maw free card, prioritizing that over the lives of thousands upon thousands, maybe millions depending on the Fourth War's death toll. She doesn't deserve the Maw after the life she lived, and I hate that the story was written in a way to where she feels like she has this gun to her head and needs to disrupt the natural order of everything just to escape an eternity locked in an unearned Hell, which I can't blame her for wanting to avoid. But the ends she's used to achieve her means are just so monstrous, and it doesn't even feel like something she would do if you ask me, just something the writers are making her do for the sake of spicing up the current WoW storyline with some doubt and ambiguity in a major player's motivation.
I'm suddenly very glad I play WoW for the armor, cool mounts and my friends. The only real thought I put into this expansion was 'purble fae forest pretty and shiny also want to adopt wild seed' and that was that :)
*Laughing in Warhammer 40,000, Warhammer The Old World and in Mortal Realms of Warhammer Age of Sigmar universes!* PS. Yeah there is a lot of Warhammer out there.
Now while I normally won't defend WoW's writing team (mostly because of the way BfA forced about 70% of the playerbase to either abandon their faction or just be ok with genocide), I do think that the Light being a protective yet all-consuming force while the Void is a more subtle yet accepting madness is MUCH more interesting than the overdone trope it originally drew from, ie "this is the light it comes from the jesus and it is always good, this is the dark it comes from the cthulhu and it is always bad."
The light part I can understand but the whole Cthulu comparison is a bit...misunderstood. The thing about the eldritch entities like Cthulu and the rest is that *they aren't 'evil' by any conventional sense that we, painfully finite beings can prescribe.* At worst I would say they (the elder gods) are aloof to us, and at worst we (humanity) are not seen as real beings with valid feelings and the scary part is...that these elder 'gods' might be right, how much is even real to humans with our severely limited comprehension of reality. (or something spooky like that) The problem with the so called *"Void lords"* is that they are indeed conventional (heroic fantasy) evil with a thin, and I mean VERY thin coat of wannabe eldritch paint. Do you know what happens to conventional evil in power fantasy worlds...that's right it gets defeated by aspiring adventurers and lofty idealism because that's the reality we wish to live in and desperately cling to.
So the WoW cosmology is like Lovecraftian cosmology? Gods exist, but they want everyone dead, and then to suffer even after death? There's also some assault stuff in WoW. Not the game I thought it was at all.
I always thought Lovecraftian entities didn't really give a damn about mortals. That mortals were so beneath them that they barely even noticed them. WoW is arguably worse, because at least in Lovecraftian settings the "gods" that were beyond your power and understanding weren't out to get you.
Not a big fan of warcraft (never had the time to sink into it) but I did read warhammer novels, it's downright spooky how damn similar these two settings are starting to get. At least Warcraft has a champion.
Complex? No, just convoluted. (even for the Chaos gods of Warhammer!) Stupid? Definitely, because literally every cosmic being's *basically took billions of years to think up* plans with every possible contingency gets unraveled in less than a year by plucky, overly positive, adventurous mortals with pointy sticks and clubs!
i sorry wait where has it ever been stated that Sylvanias was a rape survivor? I'm not gonna say that's a lie out right but just want to get all the facts before giving her a title that serious like i know she was turned into a banshee but thats about it
Rip it to shreds! Rip and tear! I know almost nothing about warcraft but Sylvanis seems cool and I love hearing Lily rant. It did hit on a number of issues I have with the DnD cosmology, although I have no idea how similar they really are. Besides DnD cosmology might as well be an entire category of fanfiction, let alone being something as sensible as a half made mind map.
gonna be honest this paints her comfort character in the best light but Syl has done some straight up Mr. Hyde level evil shit even before the expansion Lily was complaining about. Also trust Syl isn't a victim of rape she was turned into a banshee thats all
@@FoxdaBear If this is about blowing up the magic tree I'm pretty sure Lily has discussed that at length. Sounds like anti-horde propaganda to me. Let the edge elves and the skeletons and whatever have a fair shot!
@@4dragons632 no this is about doin shit like forcing innocent people to be raised into the undead like she was and having absolute apathy to the same existential horror that she went through because her response when asked by the then current warchief "how she was different then the Lich King?" her response was "Isn't it obvious? I serve the Horde". Which at the very least if you follow Lily's nonsensical insistence that Syl was a rape victim (she isn't) it kinda turns Syl into an abuser since the allegory Lily uses in that context was her being raised into a banshee instead of being given a warriors death. TLDR; Trust me she fuckin evil and will uses others "Like arrows in the quiver"-quote Sylvanas Windrunner
@@FoxdaBear I'd need to see some credentials to believe this. I know Lily knows a lot about the game and knows a lot about writing. I'll take your comments under review, but to me you're nobody, and I don't care enough to fact check your claims. Maybe Lily will address these concerns at some point. Maybe she already has.
That made a bit more sense than I was expecting, but I’ve also spent the last few years absorbing all the Elder Scrolls lore I can, as well as Fallout and Star Wars, so I think this is more a bad sign that my brain has become a sponge for useless world-building that too quickly accepts any world it’s given.
I was just thinking about this the other day. I feel like everyone in the warcraft universe is like a hare away from turning evil and renouncing all of their values. It is kind of absurd how many quests in the game involve you questing with or escorting some NPC, only for them to be afflicted with some kind of magic that just immediately turns them into a murderous psychopath.
Ah yes, the three genders
-Fascist
-Individualist
-Have depression
I like this comment its a good comment
@@orican4744 I like this reply its a good reply
I like bread.
@@themaskedmysadaean8885 I too like to bread.
my friend: being bisexual is when you're two of them
The worst part is that they're all... kind of the same? Like, each power is occupied by eldritch entities trying to bend the world to become more like them. Sure, they have different flavors and aesthetics, but ultimately their actions and goals are nearly identical, just with different colors. It's just a boring conflict split across three axis without much nuance or subtlety separating them.
Seems to me like that's how the real world is too
Kind of the point however, showing that following anything to extreme will change who you are. You can not devote yourself completely to something and remain the same person.
And, in the Warcraft universe, it was the conflict between Light and Void that birthed everything. So of course one completely winning would be bad.
Precisely, every single force of the universe is in an unending crusade for dominance over the other. The only reason the Light, Order and Life are treated as good while Shadow, Disorder and Death are treated as bad is for the simple reason that their interests usually line up with the continuation of the existence of Azeroth's inhabitants.
I still can't see the appeal Blizzard is seeing in some crazy dimension. If they dispensed with the cosmology then they wouldn't have to justify the existence of the 'Old Gods' except for them being old simply for the sake of laughs and lore. They double down on the idea of all things 'good' being good and all things 'bad' being bad. Let's ruin that image with some non-WoW characters to show Blizzard how full of shit they are.
Death from Darksiders - an agent of balance who just so happens to be the grim reaper and is still the good guy.
Dante from Devil May Cry - a half demon that would be the envy of Deadpool in guns and puns.
The Hunter from Bloodbourne - hunts beasts who USED to be human, sometimes with their own blood.
Shadow from the Sonic series - a half alien hedgehog to an eldritch being, apparently.
Kratos from God of War - he killed all of Olympus and a couple titans with his anger.
Ratchet from Ratchet & Clank - this alien fuzz ball's entire arsenal looks like human weapons smoked way too much netherwart at college.
Jak from Jak & Daxter - dark echo made him a menace to the dark makers and the story behind them and echo is more simple than half of WoW's cosmology.
The knight from Hollow Knight - most people know/knew literally nothing about him and the game is still fun and simple.
Blizzard feels like they have to be so over the top with the cosmology they forget the fun factor of their own game and are poisoning their own characters and knee capping their player base because it's apparently their story, not the players' stories, which is a bad investment and a damn shame because the players and the characters are being dragged along for an unpleasant ride.
@@altersol7255 Except one of the key details in Warcraft is that there isn’t a good and bad. There are plenty of “evil” light users and “good” Void users, because it’s Order versus Chaos and not Good versus evil. The light’s nature is not better than the Void’s at its core, it’s just more passive and comes off as more well intentioned.
"Jesus Christ. Sylvanas, do you need to talk to somebody?"
You of all people should know the answer to that question, Lily.
I really enjoy worldbuilding when it's done properly, too bad it rarely goes further than 20 different overplayed Tolkien cliches mashed together.
Stop raiding Tolkien's junk drawer, it's empty.
Blizzard don't even do that, they look at someone else stealing from Tolkien, like Games Workshop, then steal what they do.
@@jaspervanheycop9722 and they did steal from Games Workshop when they used the base concept art from the Tyranids to make the Zerg! And this was back when Games Workshop was working with a younger Blizzard Entertainment to make a game that never full release and they used the assets they did make to make Starcraft!
It's not a problem, if you create good things with it.
So.... The entirety of Warcraft's world has has the equivalent of 6 god like entities that can ruin your life whenever and however they please?
Did I get that right, because holy Fuck is that scary.
I enjoy serious stories, not Nihilistic mad ravings.
its not always that bad tbh its kinda light on that stuff and imho takin the story for more then anything above a B movie to watch with some pop-corn then it gets a bit meh. but I still enjoy it=
Think of it like this.... it looks fun to visit, but you’d never want to live there. It’s like how Warhammer 40k works: it’s a hellish dystopian future that no one wants to live in and all the sides want to kill you.
@@shizachan8421 They do show it. In Legion Turalyon is so obsessed with the light he was possessed to the point of following it to the T. In the Mag'har Orc when you unlock that race you see them as zombies of light, either brainwashing others to join or force you into a permanent point in time like a statue. When you play the game they explain a lot in detail about the balances of power as arcane. Even classes warns you of the abuse of power and all that even how you can lose yoruself if your not careful with it.
Nah, because you're the hero, and with your sword, you can kill them.
Does looks like a joke? Well, it's not. This is the story of Warcraft now.
Imagine being screwed over by things you cannot control, have little care for you and your needs, think that you are inferior to them in every way, and are a daily part of your life. Yeah, imagine that
Jesus, I never knew WarCraft had let their cosmology get that ridiculously grim. Even Warhammer 40k has the hope of spiting the Gods and killing them. I mean even Bethesda was smart enough to know that they needed multiple confirmed heavens to balance out the Super Rape Hell they put in the Elder Scrolls.
@@Dragonshade64 I think that would be Molag Bal's plane of Oblivion, considering rape, being a form of domination which is within his realm, being his thing, which is how he made Vampires, raping and killing a woman before resurrecting her as a bloodsucker out of spite towards Arkay.
@@Dragonshade64
Well in the Elderscrolls universe you can still become a vampire via being bitten and turn into one by an existing vampire. The extremely nasty hitch is if you really, and I mean REALLY want to become an ultra powerful vampire (without having to go through centuries of gaing magical knowledge and power) you have to conduct a specific ritual that summons Molag Bal himself were he then...r*pes you to death only for you to rise again as a terrifying, *"pure"* (came from Molag directly) vampire almost as strong as the very first vampire, Lamia herself. Oh and as a vampire you're soul automatically goes to Molag Bal were if you're killed as a vampire you'll spend the rest of eternity being horrifically tortured in *"Coldharbour",* Bal's realm of Oblivion and possibly r*ped again and again by the Deadric Prince...for all of eternity.
So yeah...not a pleasant fate for anyone, it's pretty F-ing messed up! To have people be turned into a vampires by horrible Molag himself is something only the most depraved, power hungry or crazy of souls would even consider.
Normally when Lily talks about warcraft, I'm happily confused about everything shes saying. Now I'm just confused, why is this so unnecessarily complicated!?
because this is what happens when you need to one-up your story's stakes every ~2 years for a decade and a half.
see also: all superhero comics
Loll I know absolutely nothing about WOW but I love her rants bc they make me question the media I consume. And also I like listening to sarcastic women yell about things 😂
Well if we are talking the cosmology? Moorcock.
Specifically Micheal Moorcock's division of Order and Chaos as the fundamental forces behind reality in his collective fantasy works. Which were used to explore existential questions like agency and free will. The problem that just about every single High Fantasy to follow Moorcock borrowed/stole this concept. It would be apt to describe many modern high fantasies as a fusion of Moorcock's cosmology and Tolkien's world building. And just like with Tolkien it tends to get....Over-complicated as designers make surface level Sonic OC changes to the concept and then play it straight without a forethought to the issues this creates.
Take D&D which started as the Chain-mail wargame by lifting the Moorcock's order/Chaos idea as a shirts versus skins binary system and latter adding good and evil with all the subtly of a war-hammer. Which yes also stole the idea wholesale.
These designers and writers add needless complexity thinking it makes the role of these cosmologies more interesting....It does not.
By the Dark Lady, WoW needs new devs and writers. Like, seriously
The damage has long since been done from what Lily says.
I've been putting off getting into WoW for a while now, and I'm really glad I just got into Warhammer instead, at least that's a Tolkien Rip-off with flavour, as opposed to whatever the hell WoW devolved into.
They do and they are, but the new writers seem to agree with the old writing or are making it worse....
@@Britonmarie Ghe new writers are ascended fanboys, it's the curse of popular franchises. Eventually your talent pool for new creators and developers are the same people literally grew up consuming your IP and thus take their cues from it in their own work, it turns almost creatively incestuous how it keeps twisting in on itself.
They have new devs and writters. The original Blizzard team has left the company long ago, and they have rebuild a new company, they planned to make a new and modern RTS.
I may know nothing about WOW, but i sure do like listening to Lily talk
Almost happened to me with Supernatural. In middle school my friends and I would write fics about the characters, but I stopped watching around the 6th season. 45-minute episodes with semi-likable characters and a heaping pile of angst + Someone that zones out easily and hates angst = Im taking the character into a sandbox, and never leaving to watch the source material. When the last season came out I was tempted to watch, but got bored again when I didn't really understand what was going on. Guess I dodged a bullet with the ending being terrible according to the entire community.
I played a 30 day trial in BC with a friend showing me around the game. I went to Undercity and we passed Sylvanas. I asked my friend "Who is she?!" He replied "She's the Queen of the Forsaken" and then proceeded to summarize her character.
I fell in love with her back story (didnt play warcraft) and started going through her lore.
She was the character I resonated with the most, and I thought when she became warcheif that it was a way to regain purpose in her life, and she could start bringing the factions together with her story being brought to light by all the main characters in WoW.
I share all these frustrations moving forward as all the main characters still treated her like a monster, even allies.
I still play WoW but knowing Sylvanas has been in the Maw leaves Dragonflight feeling empty.. the issue with fighting elemental dragons is that there is no depth to any character, even the aspects. It's as if Shadowlands was so botched that Dragonflight was pushed to distract from all the character assassinations that took place and I found no ends to any story satisfying.
It's clear that this art has been hijacked and the nostalgia IP is what keeps the game relevant, but as far as nuance there hasn't been much moral dilemma for the player to empathize with since the Culling of Strathholme.
I was so excited for the potential that Shadowlands presented. It would have come full circle that Sylvanas was taking things to the big stage and "This world is a prison, and I will set us free" confirmed my suspicion that she was working in the shadows to go big.
I mean.. that's what I would do if I was put in her position. I can't die, the cosmology of existence sucks, and everyone is ignorant and blindly killing each other in a cycle of war.. so..
Sure, you can't have World of Lovecraft but you can allow characters to exit the stage gracefully and with honor.
She was one of the main faces of WoW and her backstory resonated with so many people, and the writers projected their inner ugliness onto a highly relatable character.
It makes me want to break the Helm of Domination in Blizzard HQ
"This studio is a prison"
It would have been more honorable to have her not become warcheif and be in some remote area living with Nathanos.. OR JAINA! :D! Where you could occasionally visit an isolated cottage away from it all to gain insight with lore or do some quests.
Sylvanas and Jaina duo to stop the Jailer like secret agents to double cross him to make their own reality that doesn't make the cosmology so ass anymore!?
That would be more satisfying for her story to dupe the one that gave Arthas power, out-wit the self-proclaimed wittiest, and then reshape reality (Goddess power go! Why is it always sky daddy?)
Thank you for making these videos and channel! I never realized there was so many fan-made novels with actual compelling stories until I found this channel. ^_^
Eternally grateful.
I once tried to explain warcraft cosmology to my friends... One of them said "That doesn't make sense!" And I responded with "Congratulations, that means you're a sane person!"
Then I am insane...because I do get it.
@@samtemdo8no ur not
Somehow kingdom hearts lore is more streamlined. That’s a feat
The way blizzard treats victims of abuse finally makes sense considering what has come out about abuse and SA in the company
I laughed way too hard at “This is like if Yin and Yang were triplets and evil.”
Judging by this video's title, I assume you're next upload is going to be called water is wet. Most likely followed by fire is hot. And, finally, concluded with sand is rough and coarse and gets everywhere.
The John Oliver clip is AMAZING
The more I learn about the cosmology the more I start to think sylvanas might be onto something with the burn it all down shenanigans
So, part of it is the fact that in Warcraft, everything was born of conflict. The biggest one is the Light and the Void, and it was from their conflict that everything was born. Of course this leads to issues with the two, as everyone was given something from both, to completely devote yourself to one will destroy the things the other gave. To put it loosely, the Void have you free will, basically your mind, whereas the Light have you faith and morales, basically your heart. So the more you follow the Void, the insaner you get and less your heart has any say in your actions; where as if you follow the Light more and more, your heart blinds your mind and you do whatever you think is right and righteous with increasing zealotry.
Basically, every power has a price associated with it, and the more power you want the deeper the price becomes and the more it will change you. So do you align yourself with one of the forces and seek to help it win, or do you stay in middle knowing that while the other forces may temporarily ally with you against others forces, you are eventually on their shitlist.
*Looks at the Progenitors*
Huh…
I agree, the cosmology chart plotline needs to go. Get Metzen back in if possible and drop this thread of cosmic plots that get weirder and more abstract every patch. Go back to focusing on the WORLD of Warcraft and the characters there that we love.
Oddly, from what I've seen and been reading, it kinda feels like that's the direction they're going in. Azeroth is turning into some Cosmological Afghanistan where the great powers bending the universe to their will are getting broken one by one.
@@damienhailey118
Even that doesn't feel believable. How a bunch of frickin mortals can do what supposedly SUPER intelligent, ULTRA powerful godlike beings couldn't do because they apparently have only one metaphysical brain cell between them! It's always felt jarring to me that such entities that have supposedly been planning their returns for like a billion years gets their cosmic machinations undone in less than a year by some random schmucks. It's also hilarious in a bad way that these cosmic forces keep popping up literally every other year like some colossal conga line of DOOM.
So what you are saying is that WOW has become Warhammer 40k without the sheer hilarity of its childish edgelord cringe? By the Emperor that must be horrible.
Warhammer 40,000 was at its best when it wasn't taking itself *that* seriously. When they snuck in black humor and could have a laugh about how goofy it all was.
As the cosmology and most of WarCraft's elements are almost whole cloth copied from Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy, I am not surprised whatsoever that it's the weakest element of the series.
@@remyauthement7374 Column A (that the Warhammer stuff doesn't translate well outside of Warhammer)
They didn't even did a good job at coping them. Warhammer cosmology is way less convoluted than Warcraft, you have two realms: the material world and the warp. Everything else derivates from how this two realms interactuate between them.
@@paugarcia3684
Actually it's hinted at and even outright stated that there very well maybe many, MANY other realms of ever increasingly alien realities, such as the weird and horrific stuff that happens around the so called *"Ghoul Stars"* (in Warhammer 40K) that has nothing to do with the Warp or anything from the main material plane (similar physical reality in 40K to our world), it's just the two mentioned here are the main focus, the axis points were the majority of the stories within the setting revolves around.
I've never played World of Warcraft, but as a Shin Megami Tensei fan I can relate to the feeling of being immersed in a world based on an eternal conflict between 2 fractions that are either a fascism regime with little to no freedom or being trapped in a freaking wasteland surrounded by demons. It's pure dread, but at least you can burn it.
buuuurnnnnn myyyy dreadddddd ♪
This is why you reduce the scale of your conflict. This conflict is simultaneously too massive in scale to comprehend or get any nuance out of it and easily solved by throwing one person at it. What's the point? What's the appeal? Does anyone even have free will at this point in Warcraft?
@@Dragonshade64 That's nothing short of depressing.
No sooner did you finish saying "and some people have depression" than a mid roll ad about depression played.
"despite the infamous cycle of abuse only affecting a third of abuse survivors"
this is news to me. I always thought they all had to unlearn what they went through as not okay, and breaking the cycle was always a difficult and arduous process.
where did you get this statistic from? i would like to know more.
Google it
@@LilianOrchardThe burden of proof lies with the one making the claim.
A lady of culture I see
I’m reminded of that one scene from the Percy Jackson where the one gay main(ish) character gets tortured by a god until he admits he has feelings for the main protagonist.
Yeah, I feel super seen Ricky. Thanks for bringing that up.
Ps. I’m talking about Nico.
Most of the time I have no clue what what lily is talking about I just like hearing her talk it’s so ✨captivating ✨
The cosmology makes the world of Berserk look downright cheerful... how is that even possible?
While I don't play the game why does any of the magic need to be explained, it's just magic and the lords or whatever could just be powerful creatures or whatever, if it must be explained to simplify it and make it less nihilistic just make magic a universal force and fell, arcane, nature and whatever else is just how they do the glowy stuff and what their glowy stuff can do.
It makes no sense, either... Back in the day, warlocks could use 'fel magic' because they tapped into the demon realm, and all their class-specific quests were related to controlling it more and learning not to get too sucked into that dark energy or face the consequences, and it made sense since they were the 'dark magic' class and the other classes all had their own stories about controlling their magic... Now every magic is evil somehow and you should feel bad for playing anything but warrior or rogue!
@@thegamesforreal1673
I've always wondered how do aspiring warlocks even tap into the Fel energies, like do they leave out a tasty treat filled to the brim with arcane sugar crystals in the hopes of attracting some random demon? Even then how does one capture a demon? Wouldn't atleast the more intelligent demons know mortals try to ensnare demons and thus wouldn't be easily fooled. Can demon simply refuse a summons? (tell the person trying to summon them to sod of!) Were would they even get the knowledge to do all this?
@@navilluscire2567 Well, in the vanilla class quests for the warlock, we learn that anyone with a bit of knowledge of arcane magic can learn summoning. Tapping into the fel is almost the opposite of casting arcane magic. Arcane is order, fel is chaos. They are the same kind of magic taken to one of two extremes.
As for demons. Weaker demons like Imps are easy to summon and control. They simply do not have the willpower to resist most summoners. When one first summons a stronger demon like a succubus or a felguard, they have to be actively subjugated and bound, usually by defeating them and binding their soul to yours. After that, they can be summoned at will and are automatically bound because of that connection. The warlock always summons the same specific demon whenever they summon a succubus again.
Then there's the greater demons like infernals, doomguards, or even nathrezim (dreadlords). These are incredibly strong and also have an extreme force of will, wanting only to cause chaos and destruction in the mortal world. They can be summoned and subjugated by an exceptionally powerful warlock, but will eventually break that hold and run rampant. Only warlocks working FOR the burning legion can summon these creatures without great danger to themselves.
We see some instances of a demon being summoned and then just ignoring their summoner's commands. An example if this is the demon Jaraxxus. The more cunning and intelligent of demons can also break subjugation by only 'technically' following their orders but also doing some side things that will usually end up killing the summoner.
Need to let go hun. I let go over 4 years? Ago now and haven't looked back. The story took a complete suicidal nosedive after Lich King, destroyed my hometree and pissed all over the one woman that will not bend the fucking knee.
Never have I bren so glad to walk away from WOW when I was a dumb elementary kid because my Father played it religiously.
Lily: “Don’t get attached to characters”
Me: *only watching Wandavision despite the fact they keep making my girl Wanda suffer over and over* oops...
@@Dragonshade64 the fact they spend the first part of the series harping on the idea that she’s the villain in this can’t be easily ignored. It is the same in the comics, this girl clearly needs some help but people just try to kill her over and over. It’s legit disturbing how in the same cinematic universe Loki is given a redemption for his crimes (which you could easily argue are worse) but Wanda is demonised every other scene and it’s upsetting to see. The only saving grace in the show is Monica and I really hope she gets to Wanda before anybody else does, she’s legit the one person who seems to genuinely care for Wanda’ health and safety
When I watch those videos it really feels like the most you can do is to clean up your little niche to make this world a slightly less bad place and to hold others accountable who produce BS like that as well as be accountable yourself for your own actions.
To clarify: I was talking about blizzards BS.
Your videos about WoW always make me want to try the game more and less at the same time. It seems there are a bunch of cool things, but also a bunch of horrible things, and so far I can't tell if the good outweighs the bad enough for me to enjoy the game.
I don’t even play the games, I just love hearing you talk about it.
(Also I’m a massive lesbian for the banshee queen but still)
Interesting thoughts. Did you heard about series of games called "Disciples"? They REVEL in the narrative "all gods and cosmic forces are HUGE bastards and assholes", and actually creating a good story with it, reminding of greek/norse myths where almost all gods do - is to behave worst way possible.
The only character I got attached to was a bad ass dragon and thankfully she was handled with care.
A lot of this reminds me of how Jagex has to tiptoe around the gods with its 'player story', especially after adding 'The Godless' as a faction. Letting players side against these destructive manipulators lead to the majority going 'KILLEM ALL!', and the focus has shifted towards picking favorites as they in-fight instead.
But- Lilyyyyyy I’m emotionally attached to you for the same reasons you’re attached to Slyvie. You’re the one person I always check to see if you’ve uploaded because I love your content and personality too. Honestly, you’ve helped me through so much trauma the past 2 years. I thank you really, for everything.
Kinda same
I've recently been watching a bit of Lily's content. I will say that while I don't agree with a lot of what she says, it is nonetheless entertaining. :)
Thank you for the visual aids lily they helped a lot do make sense of nonsense
I recently got into wow just before shadowlands launched and so far I’m loving it, but I tried looking up lore so I could understand the current story and I’m just lost. The story seems so sporadic I have no way of keeping track of everything
The joy/suffering of WoW is that it abandons the previous expansion like a hot potato when a new one comes out.
How did Zandalar handle the global Legion invasion? Who knows! How’s the regrowth effort in Darkshore now that it’s been retaken? Dunno!
is it against the rules to ask if you've ever branched out to other mmos? Not to recommend any, im just curious if theres any game you would be willing to escape to if the writers grind your investment into the dust
SWTOR
I got at least 3 minutes into this video before I realized there was no music but it’s still a great vid.
Also gods are terrible to their subjects.
And also: this is why I create my own characters and whole universes for them. No one can jack it up but me.
Also I feel like most conflicts come not from the forces themselves but from beings who dive too deeply into the ideals of said force and that the path to peace is learning too embrace the values given by all and to not delve too deeply into one more than the others
5:26 I forgot league came from a wow mod, I looked down at my phone and was confused when we got to summoners rift. 😂😂😂
Grief. Just as well I left after Wrath of the Lich King, then.
9:32 - How can I help with that?
Hilariously enough, that chart is missing the Twisting Nether. The realm associated with Fel that we've known about for much longer than the Shadowlands.
Hearing Lily Orchard describe her favorite WoW character as “A broken, miserable nihilist who sees little value of life and less of hope” has just explained everything.
Great video as always Lilly.
Lily, you dont need an intervention. You need a gigantic hug. We all love you :)
Its not your fault a gross greasy twat of a man villainised an abused, traumatised woman cos that shit is NOT ON. He did your comfort character dirty and that alone is a crime.
Thank you for this video. Honestly. It's such a relief.
Couldn’t agree more. The cosmology is way too complicated for no reason.
me staring down my laundry list of hyperfixation-level comfort characters: oh no
Make a video about the Night Fae campaign and how dumb it is for a Horde Druid - who took part of burning Teldrasill and Invading Darkshore - has to save Greymane 2.0 from her own stupid actions.
Isnt the too attached to characters issue of ongoing stories lasting incredibly long but? Also makes it worse when they mystery monger.
A lot of characters I got attached too and still am to an extent lasted in a series that ended or moved on from them, or the character didn't do much when their arc was completed.
This makes me want to cry. I got more into wow to play with my friends and because I like Sylvanas, but the more I learn about the story the more it hurts. Why is the writing so... hurtful? It's like it's on purpose, it's too many coincidences otherwise. I really am only playing because I raid with my friends nowadays and making an effort to not pay attention to the story otherwise I'll fucking cry myself to sleep. It hits too close to home. Jesus, Lily, I don't know how you stand it.
I don't know how others may take this, but I prefer not having villains be redeemed. Not unless it seems logical or they were given a good backstory reason to be redeemed.
I like it when there is a villain who is so cruel and despicable that I can say "yeah, you are cool...but I still want to kill you and I will laugh while doing so."
People wanting the Lich King to be redeemed is more of a fan stroking themselves and getting off on the idea that such an abhorrent monster could be magically forgiven so he can do it all again. The Lich King is not Joker and even Joker doesn't get a full pardon.
Christ this cosmology is existentially bleak bordering on unpalatable grimdark nonsense. I believe the trope Darkness Induced Audience Apathy is very appropriate here.
Crazy, chaotic cosmology? I'm in, that makes Warhammer 40k great. It would make Warcraft great too, if it wasn't for blatant retcons about said powers powerlevel, intentions etc. Same issue with Warcraft's characters.
Same here. I love cosmic forces that are beyond mortal understanding existing in fantasy settings, but it's the kind of thing that can (and has, in WoW's case) spiral out of control. Having them be behind everything that happens and all take a keen, selfish interest in the affairs of mortals are the main issues imo
@@VoxTenebrae
That's exactly what makes Chaos in both Warhammer settings, 40K and Fantasy so great and compelling. (most of the time..) The Runios Powers, the BIG 4, The *"gods of Chaos"* are certainly powerful, beyond any mere, pitful mortal's comprehension and they do have their grand plots, and elaborate machinations within either of the material planes (Fantasy's planet, and 40K's galaxy respectively) but...they are definitely not behind literally everything that goes on, only mostly sinister opportunists with occasional schemes of their own coming to the forefront. The Chaos gods, Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle, and Tzeentch may embody facets of the entire emotional spectrum and represent broad conceptual themes as cosmic forces of nature within their respective spheres of influence but...they are NOT the source of these things, mortals are, they simply take such notions and ideals and build on them in their own twisted sense, they are these things, these concepts incarnated as perversions of human thoughts. The thing about Chaos as a cosmic threat is that it's a problem that cannot be defeated by conventional means (if it even can be defeated), it's NOT some saturday morning cartoon villain that a band of plucky, overly positive, colorful adventuring heros can punch in the face like some lowlife thug, the gods are forces of nature that cannot be overcome by *'blind' (keyword)* idealistic bullsh*t or overly preachy messages about friendship. (but friends can help one through great hardships still that doesn't stop the tribulations from coming)
3:34 Okay, so I've never played this game, but I'm going take a guess and say that these are the most interesting characters in those groups.
Nope. Malfurion (life) is the least interesting
“Don’t get attached to characters kids”
*me having 18 confort characters in one anime*
...Sorry lily
one piece?
@@konstantinemarkelia759 bnha....
personally i feel like it would be a very cool cynical edge if all the gods were assholes by intention. but alas
I stop playing after it stop being a fun RTS. You are how I kind of keep up with the lore.
6:51 Yes I can. The internet is a wonderful place.
Very wonderful, Lily. It's always interesting hearing you talk about WOW even though I lack experience with the game myself.
I know this sounds condescending but I kinda feel like in relation to everything you said about the cosmetology being horrifying is
That’s the point
Religion and deities are usually billed as sources of comfort and love but really just forces with agendas that want to consume you to further said agenda
Some forces present it as beneficial and sometimes it is (light, order, and life) some deceive you into thinking it’s beneficial but really isn’t and only helps itself (disorder and maybe void) and others are up front about it knowing you’ll fall anyway (death)
The story of the cosmo is realizing the hypocrisy and refusing to fall for it and just taking the parts that support what you want and leaving the rest either by defiance or breaking free of the manipulation
That's great, but that's not what WoW's writers actually do. The Fel, the Void and Death, sure. But the Light and Titans are up to some fucky shit and for the most part WoW is unquestioning of it.
@@LilianOrchard oh ok
I always thought illidains story was the light part of this especially the part with him killing the naru and no one really giving him shit about though I may be wrong cause I haven’t seen the rest of that storyline
3:54 Us watching these WoW videos in a nutshell
Well I didnt understand you are talking about on the last part but the main theme about cosmology did enlighten me about topic´s I might have miss or not considering as crucial.
Honestly as the time progress I am less and less interesting about WOW history as it get more and more complicated while not able to finish any of its current plot but adding even more question ( with the Cosmology one of then), I just pray activision dont fuck warcraft IP and/or allow for new games on the franchise to come ( with a possible new rts or maybe diablo like style for that matter, would be a good fresh of air).
But yes, Cosmology is very wacky. I just wish they could use to expand the narrative on good ways and not create death/torture cicles pointless plot holes that will neve be explain on a satisfactory way.
well now I'm pleased that I never really paid attention to Warcraft's lore. to me it was always just the game with the boring humans on one side, the cool orcs and trolls on the second team and the necromancer on the third (I like the third most because I always tend to like undead and necromancy and liches and stuff)
And people think Kingdom Hearts is confusing but not this? At least Kingdom Hearts is fun.
"Wormed her way into my heart"
Is this not how every gay person picks their favorite characters?
The cosmology idea was actually something that Metzen made, in order to solve the whole fragmentaded cronology problem, in Lore. Chronicles 1, 2, and especially 3, does an amazing job to organize that.
Some of the informations weren’t 100% efficient, but it’s makes a sense of cohesion and continuity throughout the franchise. I’m a Lore dude, and the main reason I loved Chronicles is that Metzen was fully loyal to the basic element that WoW was unique above other fantasy franchises, especially Dungeons and Dragons: there’s no “cosmic war” between this deities (sort off deities) like in D&D, where there is a whole separate universe directly connected to your alignment, etc etc. Even the cosmic part of this universe, like everything around the cosmology like the Burning Legion, for example, has deepth. It has characters, and they actually have objectives, goals, etc.
You can actually see this by looking the cronology from even before the criation of the universe, to Pandaria when the whole picture can be seen, so it’s not hugely necessary for you to make a convolute explanation, because it’s all connected (at least, 95% 😅).
However, with Metzen leaving Blizzard, every single person that is working on the Lore is missing the whole point of WoW, and what we are receiving since Legion (and even WoD) is a Dungeons and Dragons’ rip off, where characters actually never really mattered at all (bazinga 🙄), or even more deeper writing problems. That pisses me off, as a player and as a fan.
Since Metzen left, guys like Ion Hazzikostas and Steve Danuser came just to bullshit the whole big picture, making the community as a bunch of clowns, disrespecting all the rules, and rewriting Chronicles for be what the fuck they actually wanted to be in that instant.
Honestly, since Legion, WoW is 100% non-canon. All the rules were broken, and the essence of the story was completely abandoned by the current writers.
(PS: English is not my mother language, so apologize me if some of the things I said weren’t exactly clear 😅)
You should play ascension if you like WoW so much. It’s WoW but free and there are no classes, you pick whatever spells you want. Other than that the only difference is that it’s like 10 years behind in the story.
I hate classless systems
During my very, very brief time actually playing WOW back in the day, I'd never even given that much thought to the world's afterlife outside the occasional trip to the graveyard. Turns out it's way bigger than I was expecting it to be 😅
only get attached to your own characters so that way no one else can fuck them up
Of course then you're stuck worrying if you've fucked them up somehow
As a former Sylvanas stan, I agree pretty hard with most of this. I loved her up until Edge of Night came out, because it felt like her characterization totally made sense up until that point, but then she killed herself and got some real bad news about where she would be winding up in the afterlife, assuming that what she saw wasn't some illusion created by the val'kyr she was dealing with at the time or whatever. But after she got scared of winding up in the Maw she started really doing some terrible stuff, such as bombing the Gilneans who were dealing with a civil war and an outbreak of a plague of their own at the time, and then I was totally out once she set Teldrassil on fire. It really upsets me that they've taken her character in this selfish direction where she's seemingly only interested in getting herself a Get Out of Maw free card, prioritizing that over the lives of thousands upon thousands, maybe millions depending on the Fourth War's death toll. She doesn't deserve the Maw after the life she lived, and I hate that the story was written in a way to where she feels like she has this gun to her head and needs to disrupt the natural order of everything just to escape an eternity locked in an unearned Hell, which I can't blame her for wanting to avoid. But the ends she's used to achieve her means are just so monstrous, and it doesn't even feel like something she would do if you ask me, just something the writers are making her do for the sake of spicing up the current WoW storyline with some doubt and ambiguity in a major player's motivation.
I'm suddenly very glad I play WoW for the armor, cool mounts and my friends. The only real thought I put into this expansion was 'purble fae forest pretty and shiny also want to adopt wild seed' and that was that :)
Can I ask for the source of the art at 6:23?
I'd love you to do an in depth analysis on how they've done sylvanas dirty
Your videos are great for listening to while playing videogames!!
And here I was thinking Dragonball Z was the worst fictional world to live in.
*Laughing in Warhammer 40,000, Warhammer The Old World and in Mortal Realms of Warhammer Age of Sigmar universes!*
PS. Yeah there is a lot of Warhammer out there.
Now while I normally won't defend WoW's writing team (mostly because of the way BfA forced about 70% of the playerbase to either abandon their faction or just be ok with genocide), I do think that the Light being a protective yet all-consuming force while the Void is a more subtle yet accepting madness is MUCH more interesting than the overdone trope it originally drew from, ie "this is the light it comes from the jesus and it is always good, this is the dark it comes from the cthulhu and it is always bad."
The light part I can understand but the whole Cthulu comparison is a bit...misunderstood. The thing about the eldritch entities like Cthulu and the rest is that *they aren't 'evil' by any conventional sense that we, painfully finite beings can prescribe.* At worst I would say they (the elder gods) are aloof to us, and at worst we (humanity) are not seen as real beings with valid feelings and the scary part is...that these elder 'gods' might be right, how much is even real to humans with our severely limited comprehension of reality. (or something spooky like that) The problem with the so called *"Void lords"* is that they are indeed conventional (heroic fantasy) evil with a thin, and I mean VERY thin coat of wannabe eldritch paint. Do you know what happens to conventional evil in power fantasy worlds...that's right it gets defeated by aspiring adventurers and lofty idealism because that's the reality we wish to live in and desperately cling to.
Me, not understanding anything: Wowie the nature section of the chart has a big frog I wonder what the big frog does
even tzeentch from warhammer would get a headache trying to figure this out
I a fan of WOW for years have no idea what the hell is going on
So the WoW cosmology is like Lovecraftian cosmology? Gods exist, but they want everyone dead, and then to suffer even after death? There's also some assault stuff in WoW. Not the game I thought it was at all.
I always thought Lovecraftian entities didn't really give a damn about mortals. That mortals were so beneath them that they barely even noticed them. WoW is arguably worse, because at least in Lovecraftian settings the "gods" that were beyond your power and understanding weren't out to get you.
I mean.... it's been quite a while since I played WOW, but I remember sylvanas being....a pretty evil monster.
I gotta go with superhell
Not a big fan of warcraft (never had the time to sink into it) but I did read warhammer novels, it's downright spooky how damn similar these two settings are starting to get. At least Warcraft has a champion.
it's funny because now there's two cosmological charts. Twice the headache!
Edit: And they overlap over each other. Isn't that just great!
Nathanos is such a comfort character to me, Blizzard can just pass him here
So the WOW gods are just the Chaos gods but more complex and stupid. Got it.
Complex? No, just convoluted. (even for the Chaos gods of Warhammer!)
Stupid? Definitely, because literally every cosmic being's *basically took billions of years to think up* plans with every possible contingency gets unraveled in less than a year by plucky, overly positive, adventurous mortals with pointy sticks and clubs!
@@navilluscire2567 I meant that I just kinda forgot the word lmao.
i sorry wait where has it ever been stated that Sylvanias was a rape survivor? I'm not gonna say that's a lie out right but just want to get all the facts before giving her a title that serious like i know she was turned into a banshee but thats about it
What Arthas did to Sylvanas in Wc3 is a fairly unsubtle rape allegory.
Rip it to shreds! Rip and tear! I know almost nothing about warcraft but Sylvanis seems cool and I love hearing Lily rant.
It did hit on a number of issues I have with the DnD cosmology, although I have no idea how similar they really are. Besides DnD cosmology might as well be an entire category of fanfiction, let alone being something as sensible as a half made mind map.
gonna be honest this paints her comfort character in the best light but Syl has done some straight up Mr. Hyde level evil shit even before the expansion Lily was complaining about. Also trust Syl isn't a victim of rape she was turned into a banshee thats all
@@FoxdaBear If this is about blowing up the magic tree I'm pretty sure Lily has discussed that at length. Sounds like anti-horde propaganda to me. Let the edge elves and the skeletons and whatever have a fair shot!
@@4dragons632 no this is about doin shit like forcing innocent people to be raised into the undead like she was and having absolute apathy to the same existential horror that she went through because her response when asked by the then current warchief "how she was different then the Lich King?" her response was "Isn't it obvious? I serve the Horde". Which at the very least if you follow Lily's nonsensical insistence that Syl was a rape victim (she isn't) it kinda turns Syl into an abuser since the allegory Lily uses in that context was her being raised into a banshee instead of being given a warriors death.
TLDR; Trust me she fuckin evil and will uses others "Like arrows in the quiver"-quote Sylvanas Windrunner
@@FoxdaBear I'd need to see some credentials to believe this. I know Lily knows a lot about the game and knows a lot about writing. I'll take your comments under review, but to me you're nobody, and I don't care enough to fact check your claims. Maybe Lily will address these concerns at some point. Maybe she already has.
It looks like they are trying to be war hammer 40k were every thing’s sucks and there is no good guy but still trying to put good guys in it
That made a bit more sense than I was expecting, but I’ve also spent the last few years absorbing all the Elder Scrolls lore I can, as well as Fallout and Star Wars, so I think this is more a bad sign that my brain has become a sponge for useless world-building that too quickly accepts any world it’s given.
I was just thinking about this the other day. I feel like everyone in the warcraft universe is like a hare away from turning evil and renouncing all of their values. It is kind of absurd how many quests in the game involve you questing with or escorting some NPC, only for them to be afflicted with some kind of magic that just immediately turns them into a murderous psychopath.