The worst part is that the pay to win model leaves the company with a financial incentive to make the game more grindy, annoying, or unfair so that players will feel like buying a solution.
@@X1erra i think we shoud just vote with our monny. spend money on the games without the bs so they know it's worth making games like that. not buing the pay to win stuff in a game still leaves other to do it and as long as someone does it's worth to put more and more in it
@@lv100Alice You got it. The best example of a game inching towards total pay2win from a standard model is WoW. Very slow but steady progress into that territory. Brand worshipers and people who rationalize this stuff are responsible for it.
and the non-pay to win micro-transactions ensure that the game is ever blander with the better looking loot hidden away. Micro-transactions are the sign of a shitty game.
My favorite is eve online. Levelling skills takes from several minutes to a month of real life time (also continues when you are offline). Its faster with a premium account, of corse. Then theres this fascinating system called skill extractor. You can extract "skill points" from one character, bottle them into an item and sell this thing on the "auction house", where another player can pick it up and boost the own progression. How convenient that theres also the plex, a token you can buy for real money and sell for ingame currency. Before they introduced all of those systems, it took over a year to be able to fly the biggest, meanest ships in a good way. Not perfect, but good. Now you can spend several hundred or even thousand (insert your currency here) to skill up your character, skip the skill time and immediately buy one of those big ones. Funny, aint it? Of corse, its still eve and you are most likely going to loose it the first time you take it out for a ride because a new player doesnt know when and how to use it...but thats another story :)
@@termagant425 You are not wrong... i've played EvE Online twice in my life, once before all the microtransactions. There were massive skill gaps, either you were part of the Super Powerful elite, or you were part of the weak peasant class. I was part of the peasant class.... weeks of unrewarding grinding and missioning caused me to leave the game. it wasn't fun. Second was after the Micros were put in, skill extractors could be bought. New account as i couldnt remember my old ones info. Spent 80 bucks on Plex to buy multiple skill extractors. INSTANTLY had enough ISK to buy a good ship, and all the skills to fly that ship. Looked up a few good builds online, and WHAM... i was off and into the game having fun. No grind... no boring screen staring while my crappy mining ship shot lasers at rocks. I was able to compete with other players on a Serious level, My ship was a worrisome target to see in space.
@@termagant425 before skill extractors, this was done within the game rules by character transfers. People would have accounts where they simply had characters training for a particular purpose, then sold them on the market for ISK (which could be obtained "legally" through PLEX). Both of these systems were introduced to counter out of game RMT(account and ISK selling), which often result in hacked accounts and such. What I'm trying to say is if a MMO doesn't provide ingame options to buy power, people will use out of game options to do this. It's human nature, really..
@@ioanbotez7128 You are right, but i was mostly pointing out the amount of pay to win you can have in eve. As Josh already mentioned, it not really easy to find a definition for pay to win everyone is happy with. For me, it means: You pay reallife money and get an advantage over someone who doesnt. Whereever such a service is possible, the game is pay to win. Be it at your own risk by taking third party offers, or by legal terms via buying plex. The difference which truly matters here is the amount to which its possible. When you buy a boost in dota2 for getting to a higher rank...yeah, that doesnt really helps you much, right? You'll most likely get your ass kicked by players who deserved the ranking. Eve online is the interesting part. You will, most likely, get your ass kicked there as well "if" you dont know how to fly your shiny new plex-armored ship. But then again, the skills you have bought as well will(!) you make better, objectively. And since you can have all the skills on one character, you can, potentially, become best in the game by just spending enough money. I dont say you will, but you can, potentially. And thats why i think eve one of the more dangerous ones. Heres an example (old data, i know, but im too lazy to look for the correct values right now): The max amount of skillpoints a character can have is 425million. Source: forums.eveonline.com/t/maximum-number-of-sp/57455 A large skil injector costs around 600 million isk. Sorce: evepraisal.com/a/zix41 One skill injector will grant you 500.000 SP up to a total of 5 million skillpoints,400.000 up to 50 million, 300.000 up to 80 million and 150.000 from there on. Which means you will need (10+113+100+2300)*600million=1513800million ISK. To get that amount, you will have to sell 663.947,36 plex. Source: evepraisal.com/a/zix68 That is 30.119 Euro if we take the first offer. Source: secure.eveonline.com/plex and yeah im too lazy to convert it into dollar xD. So yeah...@JoshStrifeHayes was really generous here on how he treated eve (referring to another video where he summed up how much it would cost to play every mmo, was a great one!)
I actually play MMOs more because of the story, lore, questing and the journey of being immersed in another world. I log in each day and play for like 1-2 hours without even worrying if I get to max tier by next week. This is why I play MMOs. Games are supposed to be fun and a form of recreation, and not for players to get stressed by mindless grinding and earning cash to pay virtual items in a virtual world. Also, if I feel that I am not having fun anymore in a game, I stop and play another one that is fun for me.
i am strongly agree... a game is a game. in this perspective, i would also complain about game that heavily and mainly about PvP especially when it involved resource and progress like MMO and even more if it's open world PvP "role playing" that balance > role
Really if this is the Case better to play buy to play mmo Or better, quit mmo altogether. Fact of life: Nothing in life is free, if you see something that's free and too good there's always a catch...
Don't take this the wrong way. I don't mean to insult but... why?! Why would you play those games? Why would you tolerate those shady, predatory companies?
@@hunger4wonder why do people keep on living when there are many billionaires doing whatever they want whilst we have to work just to pay out bills? He probably stayed for the people he knew there
Why imagining, it was happening since the money start to exist and it's happening right now and it will happening in the future as well. The conclusion, the more money you're willing to pay in real life the more will you get in return, that's the reality and not imagination :D
@SaiyanPride If it weren't money people would find another way to exploit each other, that's just the way it is. Money is just the most convenient and legal option.
@@hunger4wonder He's being sarcastic. Because in a vacuum, a game encouraging you to be productive with your time by getting a job is a good thing, the reality is the game is encouraging it for nefarious reasons. The joke is that he's deliberately only considering it in a vacuum.
@@mrSaber79 Because the vast majority of adults already have jobs...finding the time to play multiple hours a week leaves you short spending time on other important things...like your family. I saw my younger brother and his wife put more time into WoW than their children, with predictable results.
Another point on the in game currency conversion problem: the amounts you get are calculated so if you try to pay in to by only a few things you always end up with money left over. The amount needed to use all your digital currency is generally really high so you are incentivized to pay more to get your money's worth.
And besides the "valuation" disconnect,so that you don't really think about how much the item costs in real life money, there's also that people tend to consider the money already spent. A disconnect from the real world money entirely, as it were. So if you buy $100 worth of premium currency (because that's the best deal, of course), and only use half of it, you're far more likely to spend the remaining half on things you wouldn't have bought otherwise.
we have grown up, it's not a matter of encouraging us to annoy our parents into spending money to we can play more anymore, it's about making us spending our own money, and so we need to earn money xD
I absolutely believe this. It's why many MMO's shifted from the design that encouraged players to stay up chugging energy drinks for days on end to accomplish various goals. Nowadays the system is set so you go to work, then come home and log on for a couple hours to knock out all your "daily objectives" and then rinse repeat the next day. "No life" gamers who don't buy microtransactions are MMO creators worst enemy. Basically these players take up 24/7 server space while providing no extra profit to the company than the guy who gets on for 2 hours a day to do daily quests. In fact, these "no life" players can often get everything in game on their own as well, and therefore are less likely to purchase currency or other p2w items from the microtransaction shop. MMO's have learned from the mobile market how to stretch out a small amount of content over a large period of time to encourage longer retention. . People don't realize there really are entire meetings at these companies designed to figure out how to most effectively part the player from their wallet. Oftentimes game development is left to a small dedicated team, while the company puts the rest of their resources towards figuring out how to best scam people. And yes, there are economic psychologists who specifically work in this field to help them better take advantage of people. If you think that's absolutely disgusting and harmful to game design... You have a working brain, congratulations.
Reality: Sheeps supports this very idea of p2w. Their standards of amusement is so low that they're willing to pour their hard-earned money... to NOT play a game. This is the future of gaming, folks.
Apparently Asian MMORPGs tend to be pay to win because they have the mentality that if you work a lot and thus make a lot of money, that you *deserve* to be better in the game than those who don't.
Asien have also a complete different attitude to games they think every game is like a gaming machine(e.g one armed bandit). Western gamers prefer to be in control of their game which even when you have no p2w you never have control in an MMO. e.g in Gw 2 I have really trouble to understand the developers balancing.
Your on to something there. If you are of a fan of LitRPG you have probably read stories about VRMMOs that are blatently pay to win. One of the first that I have read, and I think was one of the stories that launched the genre at least in the east was called "Legend of the Moonlight Sculptor." The MMO featured in that story, "The Royal Road," has a triple whammy of monetization. There's the proprietary VR equipment that costs thousands of dollars, the VR game is subscription based, and there is an in game auction house that you can spend and make real money on. This isn't really shown as a bad thing, mearly a thing for the protagonist to overcome.
That's just capitalism in general - don't tell me in western countries absolutely no one flaunts wealth, cos I sure as heck don't believe that. Even back in GW2 there were many map comments where someone would literally say they would just pay X amount to convert gems to gold to get what they want (and shoot down anyone that grinds by telling them to "get a job loser") since its way cheaper - and easier - to get a job that pays enough than grind for a legendary. It is true however that over here in asia we tend to have 5/6 work days ( almost 7 if you're an unlucky sod) so the mentality is, if you have money and want to spend it ingame, go right ahead - literally no one will judge you for flaunting wealth because as far as most of us are concerned, your real life wealth is more important than some numbers in a game and if you only have 1 day out of 7 to play, might as well spend it to flaunt and/or save time.
If I'm having fun playing a game for long enough, I can support it by buying skins or whatever. Player numbers alone won't keep the bills paid. If the game feels like it's an unnecessary grind or too inconvenient just for he sake of it, I'll go find a game that is actually fun to play. Doesn't need to be any more complex than that.
I'm actually really interested to see this video because the fact that often I am spending LESS overall time just working my job and buying stuff in MMO than i would be grinding the game is something I have thought about a lot - and often leads to me just buying things that will be a huge, unfun timesink. It really isn't a fair environment.
This is why content creators for mobile games have a sweet deal, they get paid to play (adsense) and can dump that into the game for power, while making f2p guides for their audience. It's pretty smart.
In the words of my best friend when we discussed this very topic recently, "Real life is already Pay to Win, I don't need that in my games." I have seen P2W/Pay for convenience/Pay for level up, split gaming communities. There are always people who defend these practices, people who claim "it isn't hurting you" even though a lot of the time it goes completely against a game's power curve or progression model. I'm not one to lecture people about what they can or cannot do with their money or time as I have bought pay for convenience items in the past when I played MMOs as well; but there is a certain amount of microtransactions that most of us can tolerate in our games.
Most of them are trying to justify to themselves more than you. They know they are paying for an advantage, but they use a lot of mental gymnastics to try and pretend they are not "Oh well it's pay to _skip!_ not pay to win!" or other such things because "pay to win" has a stigma attached. At least the ones who acknowledge it's pay to win and are fine with it are not bullshitting themselves or anyone around them.
@@DrewPicklesTheDark its just like real life when people gonna justify their evil. they always gonna say something to themselves to make them feel better about it. But the truth is the truth no matter what u say.
@@Store_bought_plutonium I mean, I’d rather pay for a complete game designed without micro transaction revenue in mind. Also, with a steep price, game companies would need to pump out quality games for players to invest in them. Doesn’t need to be $150, I just said that as an example.
@@75yado even with potential expansions and perhaps having some collectors edition and perhaps paying to have more than 5 characters per server? Or paying for changing name, server and perhaps changing character appearance? Sure, these are microtransactions but not p2w and just technical or cosmetical.
Getting good gear for real money is not fun. Getting gear for hundreds of hours of stupid, mindless grinding is not fun, either. If the game has only these two options, the game is not fun. I don't want to choose between ingame work and reallife work - I want ingame fun when I play a game. Hence improving my gear needs to be fun itself - and then there is no need for pay to progress faster, cause it would be pay to skip fun.
One of the few MMOs I actually played for a long time had rather monotonous combat. So grinding levels was the perfect moment to turn on some movies and just have a nice evening. And recently I put my first few € into a gacha game I play for over 2 years. Because it has solid mechanics, a fair shop system and can be completed via playing. And the money I spend was basically just for skins. Spending a tenner for 2 years of fine gameplay seems fair to me.
Your comment is logical for gamers...but not logical for gaming companies, as it doesn't make them profit in the short term. Long term gaming companies' profit motive is killing the golden goose, as gamers become more cynical and less likely to play games that take advantage of them economically. Instead companies are moving to the mobile platform, with the most mindless games, because that's where they make the most money. Civilization loses.
My favourite part of this video was the part where you did the wages to game currency conversion. I'd honestly watch an entire video on these kind of conversions in various games.
This video has completely left out the most important factor in online gaming: Enjoyment. There was a time when players played games because they were fun. No other reason. It was fun. It also largely ignores the most damaging aspect of what is being defined as "pay to win". The most damaging aspect of "pay to win" is that this ideology greatly shortens the amount of time a given player spends playing a given game. The lower time spent short circuits the long term effects that games formerly had, which was using that extended in game time to allow communities to form. Those communities were critical to games. By allowing players to quickly "win" the game, those relationships never have a chance to properly form, and players migrate aimlessly from game to game wondering why they aren't ever really satisfied.
Good point about short circuiting. I'm not sure it is the *most* damaging aspect of pay to win, but it definitely reflects the preference of short term monetary gain over long term sustainability for companies. Personally, the most damaging aspect for me is simply that I find no enjoyment playing a game that does not value my time nor my enjoyment.
This is why I only really play indie games. They might not have the "big triple a budgets" they at least generally respect my time and money. My favorite game is rimworld and it has no microtransactions or other bullshit. Only the occasional optional dlc expansion thing and those are only when there is somthing worth selling. Somtiems it'd years before we get a 20 dollar paid expansion. Most of the time it's free updates/patches. Anyway sorry for my off tangent post. Just wanted to get it off my chest.
The only one who can save us is Riot. Legends of Runeterra is by far the most accessible card game to date. P2W elements are there but F2P players have so much easier time.
Where I live (mexico) we get paid by the day, so that's 8 hours for 2 bonds in OSRS approx. I can make 6 bonds in around 8 hours of playing, so yes, I prefer paying for food/bills and farm the membership instead of paying for it. Kinda small point of view only considering 1st world job wages
He made the mistaken assumption to take UK minimum wages as the norm when 90% of the planet lives in countries with minimum wages a lot lower than that (~£8/hour).
@@danciagar Solid point. US Federal minimum wage is $7.25 which is roughly 1 bond per hour (accounting for sales tax) compared to the ~2 per hour of the UK. That showcases that most western games with authorized RMT tend to be tuned around the US/Canadian rates rather the the UK rate.
@@danciagar not a mistake, it’s what he has to base the cost on as an Englishman. The cost of most in game purchases are altered for each area of the world (though not all). So an in game purchase is relatively more expensive for someone in the UK than it is is in $ for example, in some games.
@@danciagar Peoples used to switch countries with VPNs to get 50% or 70% less than their country price. Then it was "fixed" by making it the same for every country regardless of income.
So the game world is split into two groups. Those who work really hard grinding and end up funding those who put in very little effort but happen to have lots of money. Sounds a lot like another Pay to Win game called Real Life.
@@AlmaHeartfire Only 30% of Americans have a college degree, and most of those are 2 year degrees. Most people who work for a living do exactly that--they work to live and survive, not because they love their work.
@@rikk319 look the comment I responded to is gone so I forget the context lol all I was saying is everyone should be paid more in this economy sorry if you thought I was saying something else?
"It is not about the destination, it is about the journey" What's satisfying, at least in my opinion, is doing the content, not getting the reward. Although I do agree on basically everything you said, I just thought this was worth mentioning. I wouldn't work 4 hours to get the same in-game item rather than grind it for 10 hours. Because the grind *can* (depends on the game) be the actual good part.
Test of a game: if you have admin commands that would allow you to have anything you would want in the game, what then? If you still enjoy the game play when the reward is only a .additem # away, then you know there is something more than simply grinding for gear (or whatever other reward).
@@mcfarvo Yes, there is a reason we test the gameplay with cubes and spheres and no anim/only key poses to see if it's "fun" or "good" before even thinking about all the rest. A fun game will be enjoyable to play regardless of rewards. This sounds cliché, but it's explained in the book "Flow" in a way. If one sets constant future goals, all it will lead to is boredom and disappointment, because as soon as you reach the goal, you set yourself a new goal and always crave for more. Same goes for Whales. Yes, they pay for something, but then they want to pay for more, and the cycle repeats. They have the money, so they can do it, but that does not make their experience more enjoyable. Especially since not that many players are into hardcore PvP, others can enjoy the content of the game without paying. But still, I agree with most of the video, it's simply that a game can be enjoyed regardless of who's whaling
while I agree, there's the problem that they make games annoying now in an effort to get you to spend some money. It's not that there's a cash shop added on top of the game, but the game is intentionally made much more frustrating to get you to consider the cash shop.
@@ourbulwarkisjesuschrist9435 Well yes, some games do that, if that's the case, don't play the game, the devs don't deserve your support. Some games have purely cosmetics cash shops, or quality of life cash shops but can be played normally without frustration as a free to play, I think we should focus on those games.
besides of good gameplay one of the major things in rpg for many players is progression of character, as soon as u stop progressing u lost interest. Grind, low drop rate, overrandom stats on gear etc doing a good job for killing temp of progression = kill game.
See, I don't mind some minor pay to win aspects in my mmos. It keeps me from having to stick to a meta I don't find fun. That way I can spend my time in game doing something inefficient but fun, knowing that I can just pick up an extra shift at work and make up the difference that way. Spending less time doing something enjoyable rather than a longer time doing something effective, yet boring also keeps me from burning out on my favorite games.
This phenomenon was one of the things that drove me to fighting games, a genre where your in-game power is determined solely by your own skill, knowledge, and experience. Things which you cannot buy. (Controversy over one-time character DLC purchases aside.)
12:10 I did that for several years in WoW until I stopped playing entirely. For me paying gold instead of real life money for the sub wasn't inefficient because I simply didn't need that gold. I was a mythic raider and CM player. I didn't have to buy items or boosts and gold was something I got thrown add while playing what I enjoyed. So I spend that gold for the sub. I also don't care who pays gold/money for items, boosts or whatever. I had better gear than them and was the better player. And even if I would have worse gear I was still the better player and had more fun. So while this video is good it still doesn't track the whole story, just one single point of view. Edit: And that is why I don't call WoW pay2win because spending money doesn't make you better or more powerfull. You may get some items in a boost from a raid you never had to progress raid thus you've spend less time but even a way worse geared player who played the game and knows the mechanics, timings, his class etc. is still pushing more DPS etc.
as an addition. you could already buy gold from farmer that sell it illegally. you couldn't really stop that. also people got scammed because it was a shady business. nowadays they can legally buy it and blizzard took the meat of the farmers away which still exist. but I would rather buy it from blizz than from some service that actually aren't allowed to do it.
I partly agree. Problem is, Blizzard put in time limeted rewards like the caravan Bruttosaurus or heroic or mythic rewards. That is what you can not get later and if you lack time or skill you would need to buy for boost.
The "Making more money IRL than ingame" has always been the case. Ever since I was 12 I bought currencies from chinese people in every MMO i touched. Even on allowance I could see how 10 hours of chinese labour converted into 5 dollars.
I agree with what you say here, pay to win games are not fair to those who just want to play a good game. I also hate the mobile games stuffed with ads, especially the games offering to double your reward if you watch an ad, if you select "No Thanks", the damned ad plays anyway...
The way I see it. If a game can't respect my time, then I won't give it my time. If it begs me for money, I will not give it money. It has to earn my time or money or it can just rot for all I care.
One thing that wasn't mentioned and I think does more damage to games is that if a game is offering items for cash to make things easier or quicker you can almost guarantee that those items are required because a problem has been built into the game. It's the create a problem and offer the solution for money tactic. These mechanics are often not fun and designed to frustrate players into spending. So even if you don't care about P2W players your game experience is still being made worse purely by P2W existing in the game.
If playing the game isn’t fun in the first place, why would you even want to spend money on it? Or play it, for that matter. Shouldn’t playing the game be it’s own reward? I don’t play MMO’s. The only MP games I play are shooters generally. If those aren’t fun, they won’t be successful. It seems like MMO’s are somehow exempt from this and I don’t understand why. If grinding is boring and grinding is most of the game, why do people play it?
It's the skinnerbox mechanic unfortunately. These games give a lot of progress very quickly, then make it slower and slower over time. People want to keep progressing smoothly so they're convinced that they can unlock the fun with money. It helps them a bit, but it doesn't last forever. Then there's the cosmetics that will make them feel more important, more powerful, etc. A lot of psychology goes into it. You're lucky that you're immune to it hehe :D
You can ask the same of gambling addicts. "Why do you keep gambling when you just keep loosing your money? Just stop and walk away! " They cannot stop because they are addicts, and the gambling companies actively work to keep them addicted. The comparison is valid because game devs use the same psychological tricks to addict people. So much so that EA has recruited Gaming Psychologist from Las Vegas to help them design their games.
MMOs quite often use grind as a gating tool - grind enough and acquire enough resources to then be rewarded with fun and interesting content. It's a way to artificially build up playtime and player involvement (often going into sunken cost fallacy territory), but it tends to work, and players to enjoy being rewarded for all their hard in-game work. Various ways of pay2skip or trading grind results for premium currency with other players essentially boil down to one player paying (either the game or another player) to do the grind for them, letting them access rewarding content immediately. It's like cooking - from time to time it's fun, normally it becomes a chore and some people pay others to cook for them (takeaway food etc) just so they don't have to do the chore themselves; end result (tasty food) being the reward.
@@asmonull Reminds me of some bad singleplayer games. There because the grind whas excessive I just cheated myself lot of money. Then I bought all the upgrades to get further and I realized, the content you grind for is actually fucking boring. One of the reasons I now prefer Singleplayer Games on computer again. Nobody stressing you and no need to go to work for bad passages.
Too bad the ratio is more like 1:50. 1 hour of work is 50 in game. And it's not even good gameplay, it's the boring money-grind professions or something that enable you to do osmething amazing / fun. Vorkath requires A TON of investment... average player doesn't earn 3 mil per hour in RS< more like 500k... so it's 1:20 or 1:30 even.
I think it's fair so long as the game is actually worth playing. Everyone plays games to escape reality and have fun. People who have little time don't have the capacity to play the game long, so having it accessible for them is important. At the same time, people who do have such time should have plentiful content available for them to enjoy. The problem arises when the content doesn't produce entertainment, but instead preys upon a players' need to be "the best".
Earning so much less than minimum wage for playing was one of the larger reasons I quit World Of Warcraft and almost every game I've played in the past 10 years. It takes me about a month of playing a new game before I reach the largest walls and can finally see its the exact same pay to win model and not playing is the best option available.
You may like Black Desert Online then. The game is not Pay to win because of Pearl Abyss. They have a premium item market cap which resets every monday, and a lot of the items, you cant sell on the market. For example, the only cosmetic boxes that can be sold are the classic ones and they are not always available. and are capped(For example at 2 purchases/5 depending on the type. A new player can sell a maximum of 5 Pearl shop items. Black Desert is a good example of 'Pay to loose' because the ammount of silver you can get from just playing the game, heavily outweighs the Premium purchasing of items.
@@raikto6715 That is based on family fame. I have 1400 hours on the game, with 6 characters at 58 and 59, with my main at level 60. I can sell 15 boxes a week. However, even If I could sell 35, anyone who would sell 35 would actually be loosing, thus the pay to loose. At the point of selling 35 a week, you should have multiple characters at level 63, and to sell those 35 at that point would be innefective, considering you can get 500 million/1 billion at Guru making boxes overnight =7 Billion a week. Plus wraiths which drop Deobroka necklaces and Lungs. Per hour of work, even at 10 dollars an hour, You would have to work at least 90 hours a week to sell the 35 boxes at this hourly salary. You can make the value of 3 boxes every night, times 7=24 boxes. Wraiths or playing whatever you want will make you more money than selling boxes. This means you pay to loose.
@@mclovingihavenofirstname9072 First it's not about winnning or loosing , you can pay to progress faster in this game with real money Second i have 7k family name without a single 63 lvl because they are 22 class in bdo so it's easy to push to the 35 limit (full char 60 is enough). Third BDO has many inconvenient ingame design with a pay 2 convenience that push player to spend money , like weight , villa buff , tent , value pack , maids , ghilie, lifeskill outfit
@@raikto6715 Guru Boxes are tax free, you get a free tent for progressing in the story, you can buy all the same tent requisite from Old Moon Managers. At the point of doing every character to level 59 e.t.c, you have spent more time doing so than playing the game ,just to spend money on the game, which eats into game time.
9:31 This is within the context of people in the UK, basically your own perspective. But OSRS isn't just a game playable in the west but rather a game available worldwide. Your argument may apply in countries where teenagers can easily get a job and have wages at around 4£ to 8£ an hour, but that doesn't hold true to other countries.
Problem are people who spend money on this. Around 6 years ago i had stable job and i started playing neverwinter, invested huuuuge money into shop, legendary pets, best equipment, most of the campaigns done etc And you know what? I literally got bored of the game after ONE day because i had everything and there was literally no point playing!!! That's why i never understand people who invest money into p2w aspect and then keep playing xD gosh its so boring to play if you literally advanced through "cheated" way, it feels bad.
Most p2w games have open world pvp so you can flex your wealth by killing people that don't whale. If someone falls hard for p2w they usually feel validated and "god-like" by killing undergeared low level peasants.
@@RiseInAfterlife But its boring as hell xd I don't know if its only me but whenver itried to cheat in single player game i just got bored so fast of that game i quit in hour. I just hate getting something easy, however i feel super proud if i get something hard in a good way.
@@TN51234 Same. But you forget: People are generally idiots. Which is why the whales that go around pvping low level players are usually extremely toxic asshats. They don't play for fun (cause they skip content and p2w stuff) they want to feel superior. At least after a while, I doubt they'd pick up a game and go in with the aim of p2wing but for fun.
And we have since come full circle since MMOs became a thing. What was once a world you could enter to get away from IRL P2W mechanics, has since become the opposite.
For me it was Skyforge. Had unlocked all the classes, and my toon was pretty well geared. Then they changed how you unlock classes, and rerolled all the accounts back to the start. All the time and effort I invested into unlocking and gearing the classes, gone. And now, you either have to grind months on end to unlock 1 class, or to pay up to unlock them (with each class costing around 15€)
@@urg6941 Wow, damn, i would have quit on the spot and took a big smelly dump on game's forums if it has those if that happened to me, while insulting publishers, and devs if these are at fault too.
@@DiabolicCrusher I definitely stopped playing, didn't go on the forum because imo, if they are willing to ruin their game like that and screw all players in the process, they won't care. I still play from time to time, but the game is a lot less enjoyable. When they changed the class system they also removed the leveling system, which in my opinion made the game 10 times more fun. You still had to grind, and there was a bullshit weekly limit, but at least you could choose where to invest your time. But nowadays, if you want your toon to get stronger you need to mindlessly grind every day to get your dailies and weeklies done.
@@urg6941 They might not care but going apeshit is a good way to let the steam out, might be just me.The last part sounds like mobile game or korean mmorpg to me.
9:10 - Yes, technically, you make more money in the real world... However, that minimum wage isn't just straight up time->money conversion... There's income tax, national insurance, transport (both time and cost), purchasing outside food (probably from a shop, or truck, or whatever), and events that you might be asked to attend that could cost you personal cash (birthdays, christmas, etc.). This calculation for your true, take-home-income-per-hour, is likely considerably more complex and convoluted than the two-to-three step process of converting real cash->premium currency->in-game currency.
unless u have rich inheritance from boomer overlords who pinchapenny their whole life. Or work a non minimum wage job. But yeah this video's premise is just highlighting like a game junkie addict. Who'd spend their whole paycheck on the game which isn't realistic. But its still realistic to think a whale would spend this each day or week on a game and it does happen quite often. So anyone who is just chill and doesn't wanna participate in blowing their savings is at a loss.
Play Wynncraft. It has no pay to win. It actually handles this in a really cool way. It DOES offer in-game benefits for real money, but the catch is it affects everyone, and I do mean everyone. Want double XP? Well, the whole server gets it. Want extra items? Everyone gets extra items. Everything else in the shop is cosmetic.
One game I don't mind the Pay to win model, is ESO. It had the old model of sub + pay for DLC. But if you get the sub, you don't *have to* pay for any DLC. The price is comparable to old MMOs I used to pay for. So I treat it as an infinite free trial. I do similar for warframe. I also, feel like it would be handy to include statistics for people who are playing the game. Irl dollar spent per hour played, Gold earned per hour things like that. I don't think it would hurt the overall income of the game because people who spend nothing on the game will more often wonder how the devs get paid, people with gambling issues will have more motivation to rethink their choices, and the rich whales won't care at all how much money they spend.
Comparing the ingame currency earning rate to its cash shop buying counterpart based on the real world minimum wage rates, is a very compelling method of analysis. I am sure I've never seen this comparison done before. And I can't fault your findings on it. Honestly, this comparison alone feels worthy of deeper analysis. I.e. Which MMOs fulfill the bar of making time spent earning offline worth more than time spent earning online, in ingame wealth terms. I feel like there is a pretty useful benchmark in there somewhere.
Keep in mind that, at least for WoW, the Europe region includes Eastern Europe as well, and in my country the minimum wage is 3€/h, so for a large part of the playerbase buying gold is not much of an option.
yeah on world of tanks we had loads of ukrainians and south americans just selling accounts to make some side income. while the rich americans whale the game. eventually they nerfed gold payouts though to combat it. at one point it was more lucrative to buy sold gold from clans than from the game company itself back in like 2014. tons of russian clans got banned for it.
I remember playing an Old browser MMO that gives very huge advantages to Pay to win players. That game was really fun but it got boring really fast if the high ranking whales have nowhere to do and just massacre everyone on the map and block the people from doing their quests.
Amazing video. I re-watched it recently and thought of it last night when my brain went: I refuse to go to sleep, let's think of something random, stance. And yes, it's a really great take on it. Pay to Not Play.
As soon as WoW got big, there were gold sellers. As long as there is a way to exchange real world money for any kind of in game advantage, then people will find a way to make it P2W. Honesty and transparency has become my measure of whether or not a games monetization is acceptable. Being able to easily see how much advantage a player can buy and directly evaluate how much things cost is the difference between a Games monetization being abusive or not. If it’s hidden, or obscured, or uses multiple currencies or gambling mechanics to detach players from their spending, it’s probably not worth your time.
I just started playing OSRS two days ago, for the first time. During my initial login, someone gave me a tour of the city, and one other person, during said tour, randomly asked me if I was new, and handed me 100K gold. I know people will immediately think that I should be exclusively grateful for that, and I was...but the more I thought about it, the worse it started to feel. In all of these games, I try to be a self-directed player. I don't necessarily just follow the immediately obvious breadcrumbs which the devs put out for me. Usually I will discover some mount or piece or gear which I decide that I want, and then go about figuring out how to get it. The relevant point here though, is that said mount or piece of gear is my objective within the game, and usually they cost a large amount of money. So the process of getting that gold, is actually my event loop in the game. This means that if someone just walks up and hands me a giant pile of gold, they've essentially destroyed my whole reason for playing the game. I no longer need to go on a journey, because I'm instantly already at the destination. Hence the real problem with pay to win. If you buy in-game currency, you're ultimately only cheating yourself.
@@mitchellhorton9382 I've never believed that the F2P model should exist, to be honest. It is not a model I support. I always pay at least one month's subscription, even if I only play the game for less than an hour. It is purely a matter of integrity, on the part of both players and developers; but I understand that integrity is becoming an increasingly rare thing, these days.
On the bright side, 100k is really not that much gp. (just by comparison, the game itself hands you 10k for sitting through the account security tutorial) It's helpful starter cash that'll smooth out the early game a tad, but it won't destroy the journey.
That is why I stick to the RPG aspect rather than the MMO aspect by simply playing RPGs instead of MMORPGs, there is no pay to win if there's only me playing. yes, I'm still waiting for The Elder Scrolls 6.
There's a crucial aspect I feel you've overlooked with the RS Bonds and WoW Token. Both items are exchanged via the in game auction houses which means they are controlled by the player economy. In a direct correlation you are correct, the efficiency is off. However, if/when more players move to using those methods the prices will fluctuate. If everyone used them they would be worth far less because the supply would start outstripping demand as in game methods become more lucrative. There is so much more going on with these approaches than just a time vs value.
Also, paying to advance in WoW is entirely player-driven and there's literally no way to stop it. The pay-real-money-to-advance thing would still exist (and did exist) without tokens. If players aren't buying the gold from WoW tokens, then they're buying from third-party sites. Even if you tried something drastic like disabling all trading completely, it would still exist. A person could just pay to join a raid and loot the items directly (I know of one specific instance where this happened 15 years ago the first time BWL was released). Blizz added tokens because the gold farmers disrupt the game for everyone else. An important difference is that the devs aren't designing the game around selling tokens. Games like NWN had pain points then sell "solutions" to the pain points. WoW tokens exist to reduce farming bots.
except that is a false logic do to a thing called inflation, the same reason as to why irl even though most countries have never seen more wealth generated the gap between the wealthy and poor has actually significantly widened
Enjoying this Ruining Games series. You could probably make a bullet point list or spreadsheet to summarize it. Maybe post it in the Discord or something for aspiring devs to reference. A Google doc could work as well.
Generally speaking, what anyone else does has little impact on my game. The problems start when the game is crippled by the cash shop and it's less "pay to win" and more "pay to do anything at all". It's worst with mobile games that will literally prevent you from playing the game for a period of time unless you pay money. One I enjoyed for a while was Avengers Academy, but over the few months I played, the producers got more and more greedy, so it went from pay to get the best rewards from a monthly event to pay to be able to complete the monthly event at all. At that point I uninstalled it.
Do you think you'll cover paid in-game currencies and their effect beyond pay2win? I find it interesting that most games peddling cosmetics usually set prices where after buying premium currency, you have some left. Thus, you want to buy more to feel as if you're not wasting your premium currency.
I would really like to hear what you think of Warframe's monetization I feel like they've tried to tame the beast and have done pretty well; the MR levels mean that top weapons are locked behind actually playing the game, and there are enough advantages to the things that generate in-game currency that you can get a fair amount without actively farming it. For me, I earn enough plat for everything I want incidentally in the process of trying to get the drops out of the relics. I've paid them I think $50 in 3 years (mostly for slots when I suddenly got a bunch of resources and built a lot of things all at once) and each time I was doing it was much because i felt like they had earned my money as it was for what I wanted to purchase.
@@JoeyTheOnlyOne1975 That's true, but they're usually the set included with the prime frames not the actual top-tier weapons I'm not saying it's perfect but they've done a pretty good job
i think there is a lot more to this issue than just this at least the way i see it as a world of warcraft player who plays at high rating, personally i dont care about boosters, i play a lot of pvp and arena is flooded with boosters but honestly if ur a good player u will shit on them and also its kind of a feedback loop i know a lot of people hate boosting in wow but for a lot of high end players, myself not included, it is one of their only motivations to play, because some of them actually like to help and teach people and also they get to be part of a community of likeminded high end players who all get to actually play the game all the time because of boosting, and then they take those rewards and buy cosmetics and such on the black market auction house, which i dont really think harms anyone. But i can also understand that players who arent already highly skilled would have trouble competing against boosted players, and i would even argue those people arent actually paying to win, theyre just paying to not enjoy the game lol they probably quit a few weeks after they get boosted. but at least in wow i think its more of an evolution of the community, than a genuine pay to win issue, i would say black desert online is a game with a real pay to win issue, i played it before and u could literally buy everything, pets that pick up items for u, maids to carry your items, upgrade fail protection, upgrade sucess chance, faster mounts, faster everything, stronger everything, and all that without a single middleman or player interaction of any kind...
@@fedorkochemasov4533 In Germany if you pay monthly you pay around 12-13 €, so it still sounds not to much. When ESO was released it was sub-only with these costs
as a veteran in guild wars i wanna add something from this experience : you can buy instant lvl 80 to be in endgame directly and then buy the gears with your gems that you transfer into gold but Allways every person that me or my friends met that did that are really bad compare to us because they have the biggest gears and max lvl but they dont know how to play their character/make a build/do rotations or not even knowing the game and i can assure you that in guild wars at least every people that spended their time training for challenging content will allways be stronger then the new casual whale that bought everything but by far (like generally 8 to 10 times if its a dps comparaison) but i think it applies only to guild wars because its a game with horizontal progression
You left out one important thing in OSRS: gold doesn't collerate to progression. You can't directly buy xp, and even if you buy high level equipment, you still need the high level to equip it. Noone thinks osrs is pay 2 win, they think the opposite: bonds are a healty gameplay mechanic to keep the game running.
The ironman gamemode in runescape should be put in more games. Have the option to play normal account and 'ironman' mode. If you want to be a non-spending god by putting hundreds and thousands of hours in the game. Then you'll have your own leaderboard and people to compare to
@@Numbers_Game for me the social aspect of mmo's is what makes it an MMO (like raids, dungeons, events, etc.). Trading and auction house are just a convenience.
@@frednicht1 Social aspect, a sense of community and even multiplayer acitvities aren't what defines MMO's. All of those aspects are shared by different genres. Hell, you could almost label Fortnite as a kind of MMOFPS by such standards (PVE raids - check, every BR game is a PVP instance - check and events are very much a thing - check). It has a community, online interaction, multiplayer modes, a world that changes every couple of months and, ironically enough, it has professions in the form of fishing, woodcutting, mining and construction. What it doesn't have is an ingame economy where players can interact with one another. If ironman mode can be considered an MMO, then the same must apply for Fortnite, Diablo 3 post RMAH, Overwatch, Dauntless, possibly League of Legends and on and on it goes.
@@Numbers_Game You've got some valid points there. And I would say that the current state of most battle royal games, or online games in general atm shouldn't be classified as an MMO. But if you were to add a social hub of some sort where you could chill and talk with an in game avatar of some sort, while waiting for a queue. I would find it enough added to classify it as an MMO, because you'd be in seeing hundreds of players also waiting for a game. With an opportunity to chat with them. That extra added social feature and seeing a couple hundred people at the same time makes *For me* an MMO. But I completely see where you're coming from, most if not all games that have the option of high player count on screen + social features also include trading.
@@Numbers_Game lobby games can't really be MASSIVE multiplayer online games considering interaction is completely regulated by the lobby. There is only a predetermined set of players you can encounter in Fortnite, LoL..., hence the first M doesn't check out.
The funny thing is that many developers make the game to be harder or nearly impossible in some cases ( bosses with multiple 1shot mechanics for fights that can take up to 5minutes or 10minutes as example ) only to sell the means to get around all of that for real money while acting like they are doing a favour to the player even giving some discounts ( they set the main price in the first place however they want then give a discount practically creating a scam from a scam ) because they are nice.
I feel like it's fine to make your game P2w as long as it's honest about it. Because at the end of the day we make the choice of whether or not to play, so if the game is not fun in theory you won't play it anyway. If it is fun whether it's p2w or not you're probably going to play it. Just really comes down to your enjoyment of the experience I think.
On one hand, companies have a right to monetize their game, especially if it’s out for free, on the other they use deceptive practices to get people to spend money. I think the answer is in the middle, a balance of spending money and getting access to premium content without it being an unfair advantage.
Games started to sell currency directly to the players, because many where already buying it outside of games from farmers. This was pretty common in the early days of MMOs, and still continues today. Paying for an advantage has always existed, now it's done in the open, enriching the game developer directly. In life money will always buy power. If you want a game with zero pay to win, you would have to eliminate the cash shop and make trading between players impossible.
Somewhere in the future we'll have a system that can detect and prevent trading in-game advantages for real money and it's gonna be glorious. Way better than flying cars
all u have to do is make it so players cant control the prices of an economy. but just set them to some standard. then u prevent ppl playing money games to try to get richer than everyone else by price gouging. then u eliminate most of the botters, and money incentive. Then it becomes who can sell the most at the set price. But even if u get huge coin stack u can never flex it because none of the items are priced based off of price gouging. like 2Billion GP for twisted bow on runescape. The only way u could flex would be through quantity. But then u can limit quantity on an account. Then u can only allow accounts to be made off a social security number. Then only allow so many accounts per security number and u get rid of like 1000's of farmers in one fell swoop. Then u can also do crap like lock accounts to IP address and make people pay real money if they move ip address in real life. To prevent botters from selling accounts to new person at new ip.
i generally agree though. People will always find a way to get power with money. period. money is the root issue. but we can't fix it anymore. at least not with the current world order. its the "haves" and "have nots" and to take away from the "haves" will probably start some sort of conflict.
As an mmo player that never spends money on shops or subscriptions I feel players that do spend money should have a notification above their heads to identify them As such so u can look around and be like “Oh he’s a PTW” Lol Or there should be separate service for each group
I work a 40 hour a week job for real life reasons. I make my gold in WoW just from my normal playtimes and it amuses me to buy my sub that way. :) However this series has helped me realize how the mobile games skin players for gold. Had to show that to mom with some of her games.
Unpopular opinion: MMO's should have a balance with their pay to win. We aren't playing Apex where your technical skills matter. We're playing fantasy life simulators where arbitrary numbers in many cases decide things. Therefore, I shouldn't be penalized for working 8 hours while someone else sits in mom's basement jerking off as they play. That being said. The game play for our MMO's is the real issue. A player should NOT need to do a tedious task to earn certain things. MMO's need to focus things on actual grand adventures not waiting till we hit endgame for a semblance of fun. Also gear should be dynamic anyway, where there are many viable options. Lastly the in/out-game rich should not be rewarded with being the "best" as that framework has corroded our MMO games when it should be about what adventure is to be had in this world or whatever the player has set for that day.
Exactly. The student and the unemployed and the ill and the one in moms basement should be able to enjoy the game just as much as the 40 hr jobber who has to pay rent and bills and can put a bit aside for their favorite game.
I think if person working a job wants to get competitive. then play a competitive game. If they want MMO with their time. Then expect to invest a lot of time. Because its about the full game experience for an mmo. Not just the money to catch up to some theoretical end game competitive content that probably isn't that competitive. anyway. I guess MMO genre has watched competitive genre and always been in the backseat. Which makes sense because mostly kids play video games anyway. So i guess real life money for MMO's is to cater to that audience who wants the competitive. But only stupid workaholics wanna do that. Why don't people want bigger worlds with more things to do? Its like they just want to be the best at something because they aren't happy at work so they spend the paycheck to try. Idk. Its just f**king stupid. You're never gonna beat the 16 year old at competitive anyway with reaction times. MMOS should just get back to their own field.
I understand this is outside the scope of the video, but most minimum wage jobs aren't much fun, and neither do you get to set your own schedule. Games are supposed to be fun, and while many f2p games set it up to be less fun unless you spend money on them, you can usually still find some with good enough core mechanics and enough content that you can enjoy them for free or almost free. If you're suffering through content in order to get stronger, you should probably try to find less efficient but more fun ways to get stronger; if the gameplay itself has become suffering for you, stop playing!
Jokes on you, I do afk money makers WHILE working from home so I win double! Jokes aside there is one major point you missed with the OSRS bonds and WoW tokens, they are necessary evils to reduce real world trading. Even if Jagex and Blizzard didn't allow it players would still be buying gold in both games through shady means that hurt the games FAR more than allowing players to trade gold for membership. Giving an official way that also allows player to get membership in exchange for a version of pay to win that was going to exist with or without dev approval? Sounds fine to me.
I enjoy making currency in wow and then buy game time with it and add balance to my account. It's not efficient and with a day of work i can make more than weeks of grinding currency. But i enjoy that aspect of it. Took me years to learn the auction house, and how the people behave, trying to find the days and hours they would make the most impulsive bad decisions. Finding the right spot so the price of an item is as high as possible while also low enough that people consider it ok for buying. Trying to manipulate prices, or be better than my competitors by resetting the prices to a normal range without them take notice (especially when they sell too low). I am proud of it to be honest. I spend around 30 minutes a day now doing it. I don't grind for materials anymore, i actually wait for their prices to reach a certain low, buy then and craft items. If you can make a game out of it, it's enjoyable. If you grind all day every day, while listening to podcasts and loving it, it's worth it. If you grind but hate it, but you want the currency, you're better of working irl.
I agree. For some players such systems can become their virtual stock market. Imo it is the most efficient thing to do to get your tokens. Can be a lot of fun too.
@@CToast have you ever done something irl that requires time and effort and dedication? And because you invested in it, after some time, it gives back? And continues to give back? You make the effort and enjoying the rewards. I actually do it in most games with similar systems. It's a bit the same feeling as making a strong character after you invest in them. I feel that my dedication pays off and that is a nice feeling. Hard work paying off.
What is most terrifying is that even if a game is not pay to win, the community will make it pay to win. Looking at WoW Classic: WoW tokens don't work, so you can't buy gold... from Blizzard... You can buy it (illegally) from other sources thou. And the community adjusted to it, so "skilled" players can help whales get their gear by selling raid boosts for gold or in so called GDKP runs (gold dragon kill points), simply to milk those players. So if you have the abilities, you can best earn gold not by spending money on it, but by milking the whales, since one milkage only takes about 2 hours and gets you sometimes a thousand gold. Or you just drag one or two whales along for a small bonus.
i mean that's obvious and existed in OG wows prime days. thats 1 reason blizzard introduced the token. gold sellers always existed but nowadays you can do it without getting scammed and legally. and you can maybe even finance your sub with your playtime
i mean that's obvious and existed in OG wows prime days. thats 1 reason blizzard introduced the token. gold sellers always existed but nowadays you can do it without getting scammed and legally. and you can maybe even finance your sub with your playtime
The whole video as the channel is excelent. Josh S, as always excel at YT Videos. Is important to notice 2 mayor things on the "pay to win" model of games: The game need to maintain itself +to the buyers The game need to be popular +to the player base. We need the two kind of "gamers" to be able to keep alive a certain game.
This is so true. I played BDO recently and not only the comunity doesnt admit the game is p2w, its literaly not worth to even play the game. Entire systems are locked behinda pay wall although the game pretends they are not. Never have i seen so many wales as i have seen in BDO
Game is def still worth playing. But Its so fucking cringe the way they try and sugarcoat it "no bro its not p2w its pay for convenience" literally BS you have Outfits that give XP, The p2w tent, pets that give better abilitys than the free ones. Not to mention the fucking inv slots I practically need to buy em so Im forced to haul a fucking wagon with me all the time.
Yeah BDO has alot of whales and when you mention it being P2W they are quick to defend it since they participate in it, the game is not worth playing as a f2p imo.
@@sonfable8809 You got weight and inv slots you get like 50 by playing the MSQ and im still playing and havent got a slot in a very long time. You got outfits they can be paid for with in game currency assuming someones selling them. Value packs in order to get your moneys worth you NEED value packs losing 30% of profits sucks. You got the p2w tent that you can carry everywhere that repairs gear has a vendor that sells Large HP/Mana potions and has like 25 storage slots. All you gotta do is take a look at the pearl shop
@@Dark74111 Imo its def not F2P friendly you need to buy value packs and there like 10 bucks a month just to not lose profits. You dont need pets but some give a def advantage
I was thinking about gold/irl money per hour in the exact way you describe it in your video. But I don't think that's entirely accurate/applicable. Maybe if you're working freelance and you make your own hours - then yes, and are paid by the hour, then that is exactly how it is. But most people work fixed hours for fixed monthly salary, and it doesn't matter how much time they spend in game, they will have the same amount of disposable income. I do not have the option to stay 2 hours more after work, and get paid for two hours more, so I cannot choose to do that instead of farm gold for two hours in game after work... But i guess that makes me a lot more inclined to buy the gold with real money, since my time for playing is so limited... or get a second part-time irl job solely for earning in-game gold?
I wish you can make a video about the Eastern and Western Differences of MMORPG and its social, cultural and marketing differences, etc. and Why Western thought MMORPG are "Dead" or "Dying" While in the East thats not case.
Black Desert ends up being pretty alright, definitely not amazing, besides the value packs which are like wow subs. Other than that it is literally thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars to reach endgame which very few people ever do.
Nice to see someone else who genuinely knows what's going on in BDO. I'm getting tired of hearing the same recycled "BDO is just p2w" or "you just pay to skip to max level" bullshit. never has a game inspired me to actually enjoy the grind like BDO because it's not just "a grind." it feels like a learning experience. did I just spend three days learning life skills to craft an outfit when I could've just bought a different one? absolutely. but I enjoyed the grind and in the end the outfit truly feels like my own and not just another store bought cosmetic
@@beebeebe5916 artisans memory essentially allows you to have 20 memory fragments act as having 100 of them, and they are essential for upgrading boss gear. pets. the tent. value pack. kama blessing. book of combat. bdo is by all definition p2w, as you pay to advance faster. much faster. have fun grinding zones with two tier 1 pets
Im glad someone finally pointed out how World of Warcraft Abuse our skill to create a "Pay to win" environment without having to do it themselves (Offer wow token > Make boosts for Gold legal by ToS (No RMT tho) > People buy tokens to buy boosts and blizz collects 100% profit since the guys boosting spend it on BoE epics or special mounts that were supposed to be for people who collected the cards back when they existed etc.
Subscription model is the best model for game quality. No other model is as good. Now, if only greedy publishers would just allow that to happen for the long-term health of their game instead of very frequently going for the money grab.
@@davidxu5466 Timegating is literally reason why i stopped playing wow since Legion, i pay monthly and i cannot even grind whole day because theres nothing to do, have to wait whole week to do raids or create other alts, stupid af
Sub games have the same shit as f2p ones have.. I was playing eso the other day walked up to a stablemaster cleary selling guars but when I speak to him he only sells horses... 😩 so turns out its only for premium currency and in the cash shop wtf Bethesda think this is f2p or somthing 😂 😂
The money is really hard to resist. It has been proven that f2p with p2w cash shops makes WAAAY more money then subscriptions. The only reason WoW and ff14 have stayed as sub games is because they're established IPs with tons of fans. Every mmo that tried sub went f2p within a year of release and/or died.
12:50 Reminds me when I was playing a game and I was level 60 with decent gear for my level and spending no many and then I go to the Arena and see a little 30 person I challenged them and they killed me in 3 hits and their speed were so much higher that I didn't even get a chance to get 1 attack in before they killed me. And again they were half my level but had gear that was easily 4x better than mine.
oh 100% agree esp on runescape 3 that is riddled with "MTX" you can outright buy xp with keys, you can buy ingame money indirectly with Bonds. Constant promotions basically demand you buy them, you even get daily keys in hopes youll get hooked.
![Can you Judge an MMO in just 1 hour? [MMOPINION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JpkGbVVLExw/mqdefault.jpg)
![Can you Judge an MMO in just 1 hour? [MMOPINION]](/img/tr.png)
The worst part is that the pay to win model leaves the company with a financial incentive to make the game more grindy, annoying, or unfair so that players will feel like buying a solution.
That's why we must stay cautious and never let them take that one step forward, two steps back approach
@@X1erra i think we shoud just vote with our monny. spend money on the games without the bs so they know it's worth making games like that. not buing the pay to win stuff in a game still leaves other to do it and as long as someone does it's worth to put more and more in it
@@lv100Alice You got it. The best example of a game inching towards total pay2win from a standard model is WoW. Very slow but steady progress into that territory. Brand worshipers and people who rationalize this stuff are responsible for it.
Craptic Studios
and the non-pay to win micro-transactions ensure that the game is ever blander with the better looking loot hidden away. Micro-transactions are the sign of a shitty game.
My favorite premium currency scam.
Ultimate Sword = 505 BS Currency.
500 BS Currency = $5.00
2000 BS Currency = $20.00
My favorite is eve online. Levelling skills takes from several minutes to a month of real life time (also continues when you are offline). Its faster with a premium account, of corse.
Then theres this fascinating system called skill extractor. You can extract "skill points" from one character, bottle them into an item and sell this thing on the "auction house", where another player can pick it up and boost the own progression. How convenient that theres also the plex, a token you can buy for real money and sell for ingame currency.
Before they introduced all of those systems, it took over a year to be able to fly the biggest, meanest ships in a good way. Not perfect, but good. Now you can spend several hundred or even thousand (insert your currency here) to skill up your character, skip the skill time and immediately buy one of those big ones. Funny, aint it?
Of corse, its still eve and you are most likely going to loose it the first time you take it out for a ride because a new player doesnt know when and how to use it...but thats another story :)
You forget to add “current” so you can keep buying when you get to higher levels to keep getting the ultimate sword for your current level!
@@termagant425 You are not wrong... i've played EvE Online twice in my life, once before all the microtransactions. There were massive skill gaps, either you were part of the Super Powerful elite, or you were part of the weak peasant class. I was part of the peasant class.... weeks of unrewarding grinding and missioning caused me to leave the game. it wasn't fun. Second was after the Micros were put in, skill extractors could be bought. New account as i couldnt remember my old ones info. Spent 80 bucks on Plex to buy multiple skill extractors. INSTANTLY had enough ISK to buy a good ship, and all the skills to fly that ship. Looked up a few good builds online, and WHAM... i was off and into the game having fun. No grind... no boring screen staring while my crappy mining ship shot lasers at rocks. I was able to compete with other players on a Serious level, My ship was a worrisome target to see in space.
@@termagant425 before skill extractors, this was done within the game rules by character transfers. People would have accounts where they simply had characters training for a particular purpose, then sold them on the market for ISK (which could be obtained "legally" through PLEX). Both of these systems were introduced to counter out of game RMT(account and ISK selling), which often result in hacked accounts and such.
What I'm trying to say is if a MMO doesn't provide ingame options to buy power, people will use out of game options to do this. It's human nature, really..
@@ioanbotez7128 You are right, but i was mostly pointing out the amount of pay to win you can have in eve. As Josh already mentioned, it not really easy to find a definition for pay to win everyone is happy with. For me, it means: You pay reallife money and get an advantage over someone who doesnt. Whereever such a service is possible, the game is pay to win. Be it at your own risk by taking third party offers, or by legal terms via buying plex.
The difference which truly matters here is the amount to which its possible. When you buy a boost in dota2 for getting to a higher rank...yeah, that doesnt really helps you much, right? You'll most likely get your ass kicked by players who deserved the ranking. Eve online is the interesting part. You will, most likely, get your ass kicked there as well "if" you dont know how to fly your shiny new plex-armored ship. But then again, the skills you have bought as well will(!) you make better, objectively.
And since you can have all the skills on one character, you can, potentially, become best in the game by just spending enough money. I dont say you will, but you can, potentially. And thats why i think eve one of the more dangerous ones.
Heres an example (old data, i know, but im too lazy to look for the correct values right now): The max amount of skillpoints a character can have is 425million.
Source: forums.eveonline.com/t/maximum-number-of-sp/57455
A large skil injector costs around 600 million isk. Sorce: evepraisal.com/a/zix41
One skill injector will grant you 500.000 SP up to a total of 5 million skillpoints,400.000 up to 50 million, 300.000 up to 80 million and 150.000 from there on.
Which means you will need (10+113+100+2300)*600million=1513800million ISK. To get that amount, you will have to sell 663.947,36 plex. Source: evepraisal.com/a/zix68
That is 30.119 Euro if we take the first offer. Source: secure.eveonline.com/plex and yeah im too lazy to convert it into dollar xD.
So yeah...@JoshStrifeHayes was really generous here on how he treated eve (referring to another video where he summed up how much it would cost to play every mmo, was a great one!)
Came to hear about pay to win games, now i’m suddenly working a 9-5 at Taco Bell
I actually play MMOs more because of the story, lore, questing and the journey of being immersed in another world. I log in each day and play for like 1-2 hours without even worrying if I get to max tier by next week. This is why I play MMOs. Games are supposed to be fun and a form of recreation, and not for players to get stressed by mindless grinding and earning cash to pay virtual items in a virtual world. Also, if I feel that I am not having fun anymore in a game, I stop and play another one that is fun for me.
Ex,actly this. I feel this way about the games I play.
Ok
A very healthy approach
i am strongly agree... a game is a game. in this perspective, i would also complain about game that heavily and mainly about PvP especially when it involved resource and progress like MMO and even more if it's open world PvP "role playing" that balance > role
Really if this is the Case better to play buy to play mmo Or better, quit mmo altogether.
Fact of life: Nothing in life is free, if you see something that's free and too good there's always a catch...
I played Gamigo/Aeria Games MMORPGs for a decade, I developed tolerance to abuse like I never believed possible.
I played Naruto Online for years, I feel that.
Don't take this the wrong way. I don't mean to insult but...
why?!
Why would you play those games?
Why would you tolerate those shady, predatory companies?
Pfftt try Gravity games like Ragnarok, it fell same too.
@@hunger4wonder why do people keep on living when there are many billionaires doing whatever they want whilst we have to work just to pay out bills?
He probably stayed for the people he knew there
same
Imagine if you could just pay a lot of money to get ahead in real world sports like soccer... oh wait!
Not talking to you Barcelona, not talking to you
Shots fired... :D :D
Why imagining, it was happening since the money start to exist and it's happening right now and it will happening in the future as well.
The conclusion, the more money you're willing to pay in real life the more will you get in return, that's the reality and not imagination :D
@@Cr4sHOv3rRiD3 almost like that was the joke or something
@SaiyanPride If it weren't money people would find another way to exploit each other, that's just the way it is. Money is just the most convenient and legal option.
P2W MMOs out there pushing people towards finding a job. Truly, beautiful.
No. It's not beautiful. It's despicable.
@@hunger4wonder He's being sarcastic. Because in a vacuum, a game encouraging you to be productive with your time by getting a job is a good thing, the reality is the game is encouraging it for nefarious reasons. The joke is that he's deliberately only considering it in a vacuum.
Nice
@@mrSaber79 Because the vast majority of adults already have jobs...finding the time to play multiple hours a week leaves you short spending time on other important things...like your family. I saw my younger brother and his wife put more time into WoW than their children, with predictable results.
@@rikk319 And that's why you don't get a family
Another point on the in game currency conversion problem: the amounts you get are calculated so if you try to pay in to by only a few things you always end up with money left over. The amount needed to use all your digital currency is generally really high so you are incentivized to pay more to get your money's worth.
And then there's another thing added in - cheap power consumables or worse lootboxes - designed to get you to waste those leftover points.
And besides the "valuation" disconnect,so that you don't really think about how much the item costs in real life money, there's also that people tend to consider the money already spent. A disconnect from the real world money entirely, as it were. So if you buy $100 worth of premium currency (because that's the best deal, of course), and only use half of it, you're far more likely to spend the remaining half on things you wouldn't have bought otherwise.
as a philosophy major, big respect for starting your video with definition of terms
Plot twist: the companies are encouraging MMO addicts to go to work seeing as how they'll get "more" from it lol XD
we have grown up, it's not a matter of encouraging us to annoy our parents into spending money to we can play more anymore, it's about making us spending our own money, and so we need to earn money xD
i mean that is the cycle of capitalism
I absolutely believe this. It's why many MMO's shifted from the design that encouraged players to stay up chugging energy drinks for days on end to accomplish various goals. Nowadays the system is set so you go to work, then come home and log on for a couple hours to knock out all your "daily objectives" and then rinse repeat the next day. "No life" gamers who don't buy microtransactions are MMO creators worst enemy. Basically these players take up 24/7 server space while providing no extra profit to the company than the guy who gets on for 2 hours a day to do daily quests. In fact, these "no life" players can often get everything in game on their own as well, and therefore are less likely to purchase currency or other p2w items from the microtransaction shop. MMO's have learned from the mobile market how to stretch out a small amount of content over a large period of time to encourage longer retention.
.
People don't realize there really are entire meetings at these companies designed to figure out how to most effectively part the player from their wallet. Oftentimes game development is left to a small dedicated team, while the company puts the rest of their resources towards figuring out how to best scam people. And yes, there are economic psychologists who specifically work in this field to help them better take advantage of people. If you think that's absolutely disgusting and harmful to game design... You have a working brain, congratulations.
@@TTMILKYTT your not wrong time= money in either case
Reality: Sheeps supports this very idea of p2w. Their standards of amusement is so low that they're willing to pour their hard-earned money... to NOT play a game. This is the future of gaming, folks.
Apparently Asian MMORPGs tend to be pay to win because they have the mentality that if you work a lot and thus make a lot of money, that you *deserve* to be better in the game than those who don't.
Lol and that shit isnt here in Merica, where politicians will stab their own mother to make a penny.
Asien have also a complete different attitude to games they think every game is like a gaming machine(e.g one armed bandit). Western gamers prefer to be in control of their game which even when you have no p2w you never have control in an MMO. e.g in Gw 2 I have really trouble to understand the developers balancing.
Your on to something there. If you are of a fan of LitRPG you have probably read stories about VRMMOs that are blatently pay to win. One of the first that I have read, and I think was one of the stories that launched the genre at least in the east was called "Legend of the Moonlight Sculptor." The MMO featured in that story, "The Royal Road," has a triple whammy of monetization. There's the proprietary VR equipment that costs thousands of dollars, the VR game is subscription based, and there is an in game auction house that you can spend and make real money on. This isn't really shown as a bad thing, mearly a thing for the protagonist to overcome.
Also Asians (Japan e i think China) work on a 6/7 week day, 10 to 12h a day
That's just capitalism in general - don't tell me in western countries absolutely no one flaunts wealth, cos I sure as heck don't believe that. Even back in GW2 there were many map comments where someone would literally say they would just pay X amount to convert gems to gold to get what they want (and shoot down anyone that grinds by telling them to "get a job loser") since its way cheaper - and easier - to get a job that pays enough than grind for a legendary.
It is true however that over here in asia we tend to have 5/6 work days ( almost 7 if you're an unlucky sod) so the mentality is, if you have money and want to spend it ingame, go right ahead - literally no one will judge you for flaunting wealth because as far as most of us are concerned, your real life wealth is more important than some numbers in a game and if you only have 1 day out of 7 to play, might as well spend it to flaunt and/or save time.
If I'm having fun playing a game for long enough, I can support it by buying skins or whatever. Player numbers alone won't keep the bills paid.
If the game feels like it's an unnecessary grind or too inconvenient just for he sake of it, I'll go find a game that is actually fun to play.
Doesn't need to be any more complex than that.
Literally no one
Goblins in WOW: TIME IS MONEY FRIEND
@@Omniaverage I heard that in the goblin voice.
Useless nobody
Stranglethorn Vale, at least before Cataclysm.
I'm actually really interested to see this video because the fact that often I am spending LESS overall time just working my job and buying stuff in MMO than i would be grinding the game is something I have thought about a lot - and often leads to me just buying things that will be a huge, unfun timesink. It really isn't a fair environment.
This is why content creators for mobile games have a sweet deal, they get paid to play (adsense) and can dump that into the game for power, while making f2p guides for their audience. It's pretty smart.
They also get free BS currency from the companies to tempt their watchers into paying.
In the words of my best friend when we discussed this very topic recently, "Real life is already Pay to Win, I don't need that in my games."
I have seen P2W/Pay for convenience/Pay for level up, split gaming communities. There are always people who defend these practices, people who claim "it isn't hurting you" even though a lot of the time it goes completely against a game's power curve or progression model. I'm not one to lecture people about what they can or cannot do with their money or time as I have bought pay for convenience items in the past when I played MMOs as well; but there is a certain amount of microtransactions that most of us can tolerate in our games.
Most of them are trying to justify to themselves more than you. They know they are paying for an advantage, but they use a lot of mental gymnastics to try and pretend they are not "Oh well it's pay to _skip!_ not pay to win!" or other such things because "pay to win" has a stigma attached. At least the ones who acknowledge it's pay to win and are fine with it are not bullshitting themselves or anyone around them.
@@DrewPicklesTheDark its just like real life when people gonna justify their evil. they always gonna say something to themselves to make them feel better about it. But the truth is the truth no matter what u say.
That's a point I often make as well. Rich brats ruin everything they touch.
While the latter are at least being honest, they're still just as pathetic as the delusionals.
Oh so you’re ok with a LITTLE bit of microtransactions. You’re just saying you don’t want to spend too much on the game
I prefer pay for surprise mechanics for that sense of pride and accomplishment.
Oof. I’d rather pay $150/game and have no micro transactions.
@@ShaveItDown is it good for the player?
@@Store_bought_plutonium I mean, I’d rather pay for a complete game designed without micro transaction revenue in mind. Also, with a steep price, game companies would need to pump out quality games for players to invest in them. Doesn’t need to be $150, I just said that as an example.
@@ShaveItDown we are speaking about MMOs here so $150 is too low price
@@75yado even with potential expansions and perhaps having some collectors edition and perhaps paying to have more than 5 characters per server? Or paying for changing name, server and perhaps changing character appearance? Sure, these are microtransactions but not p2w and just technical or cosmetical.
Getting good gear for real money is not fun. Getting gear for hundreds of hours of stupid, mindless grinding is not fun, either. If the game has only these two options, the game is not fun. I don't want to choose between ingame work and reallife work - I want ingame fun when I play a game. Hence improving my gear needs to be fun itself - and then there is no need for pay to progress faster, cause it would be pay to skip fun.
Grinding is one of my least favourite thing about mmos it's idiotic and boring
@@rat6554 well it can be very zen. like mediating
One of the few MMOs I actually played for a long time had rather monotonous combat. So grinding levels was the perfect moment to turn on some movies and just have a nice evening.
And recently I put my first few € into a gacha game I play for over 2 years. Because it has solid mechanics, a fair shop system and can be completed via playing. And the money I spend was basically just for skins. Spending a tenner for 2 years of fine gameplay seems fair to me.
Your comment is logical for gamers...but not logical for gaming companies, as it doesn't make them profit in the short term. Long term gaming companies' profit motive is killing the golden goose, as gamers become more cynical and less likely to play games that take advantage of them economically. Instead companies are moving to the mobile platform, with the most mindless games, because that's where they make the most money. Civilization loses.
Surfing pikachu in Pokemon stadium
My favourite part of this video was the part where you did the wages to game currency conversion. I'd honestly watch an entire video on these kind of conversions in various games.
This video has completely left out the most important factor in online gaming: Enjoyment. There was a time when players played games because they were fun. No other reason. It was fun.
It also largely ignores the most damaging aspect of what is being defined as "pay to win". The most damaging aspect of "pay to win" is that this ideology greatly shortens the amount of time a given player spends playing a given game. The lower time spent short circuits the long term effects that games formerly had, which was using that extended in game time to allow communities to form. Those communities were critical to games. By allowing players to quickly "win" the game, those relationships never have a chance to properly form, and players migrate aimlessly from game to game wondering why they aren't ever really satisfied.
Good point about short circuiting. I'm not sure it is the *most* damaging aspect of pay to win, but it definitely reflects the preference of short term monetary gain over long term sustainability for companies. Personally, the most damaging aspect for me is simply that I find no enjoyment playing a game that does not value my time nor my enjoyment.
As one profit of the oncoming doom said "Don't you guys have phones?"
and it's so profitable that we might never see another great MMO free of those predatory gimmicks ....this is why we cant have nice things.
What's worse, this crap is seeping into single player games too. The AAA games section is doomed and a waste of time at this point.
This is why I only really play indie games. They might not have the "big triple a budgets" they at least generally respect my time and money. My favorite game is rimworld and it has no microtransactions or other bullshit. Only the occasional optional dlc expansion thing and those are only when there is somthing worth selling.
Somtiems it'd years before we get a 20 dollar paid expansion. Most of the time it's free updates/patches.
Anyway sorry for my off tangent post. Just wanted to get it off my chest.
The only one who can save us is Riot. Legends of Runeterra is by far the most accessible card game to date. P2W elements are there but F2P players have so much easier time.
As long as we remember that this is because companies have realized people will p2w. It's just as much, of not more, the fault of players.
Where I live (mexico) we get paid by the day, so that's 8 hours for 2 bonds in OSRS approx. I can make 6 bonds in around 8 hours of playing, so yes, I prefer paying for food/bills and farm the membership instead of paying for it. Kinda small point of view only considering 1st world job wages
He made the mistaken assumption to take UK minimum wages as the norm when 90% of the planet lives in countries with minimum wages a lot lower than that (~£8/hour).
@@danciagar Solid point. US Federal minimum wage is $7.25 which is roughly 1 bond per hour (accounting for sales tax) compared to the ~2 per hour of the UK. That showcases that most western games with authorized RMT tend to be tuned around the US/Canadian rates rather the the UK rate.
@@danciagar not a mistake, it’s what he has to base the cost on as an Englishman. The cost of most in game purchases are altered for each area of the world (though not all). So an in game purchase is relatively more expensive for someone in the UK than it is is in $ for example, in some games.
@@senzavolto People abused it so much that most mobile purchase got the same price, even steam dialed down on it.
@@danciagar Peoples used to switch countries with VPNs to get 50% or 70% less than their country price. Then it was "fixed" by making it the same for every country regardless of income.
So the game world is split into two groups. Those who work really hard grinding and end up funding those who put in very little effort but happen to have lots of money. Sounds a lot like another Pay to Win game called Real Life.
yeah for real. and real life game is just as pay to win. haven't had good pay for workers in decades. still on 1970's wages.
@Tanner Austin like how you immediately assumed it's because the person choose a artist degree and not because each job has terrible income
@@AlmaHeartfire Only 30% of Americans have a college degree, and most of those are 2 year degrees. Most people who work for a living do exactly that--they work to live and survive, not because they love their work.
@@rikk319 look the comment I responded to is gone so I forget the context lol all I was saying is everyone should be paid more in this economy sorry if you thought I was saying something else?
This is literally the same as CMC and MCM' from Das Kapital.
"It is not about the destination, it is about the journey"
What's satisfying, at least in my opinion, is doing the content, not getting the reward.
Although I do agree on basically everything you said, I just thought this was worth mentioning.
I wouldn't work 4 hours to get the same in-game item rather than grind it for 10 hours. Because the grind *can* (depends on the game) be the actual good part.
Test of a game: if you have admin commands that would allow you to have anything you would want in the game, what then? If you still enjoy the game play when the reward is only a .additem # away, then you know there is something more than simply grinding for gear (or whatever other reward).
@@mcfarvo Yes, there is a reason we test the gameplay with cubes and spheres and no anim/only key poses to see if it's "fun" or "good" before even thinking about all the rest. A fun game will be enjoyable to play regardless of rewards.
This sounds cliché, but it's explained in the book "Flow" in a way. If one sets constant future goals, all it will lead to is boredom and disappointment, because as soon as you reach the goal, you set yourself a new goal and always crave for more. Same goes for Whales. Yes, they pay for something, but then they want to pay for more, and the cycle repeats. They have the money, so they can do it, but that does not make their experience more enjoyable.
Especially since not that many players are into hardcore PvP, others can enjoy the content of the game without paying.
But still, I agree with most of the video, it's simply that a game can be enjoyed regardless of who's whaling
while I agree, there's the problem that they make games annoying now in an effort to get you to spend some money. It's not that there's a cash shop added on top of the game, but the game is intentionally made much more frustrating to get you to consider the cash shop.
@@ourbulwarkisjesuschrist9435 Well yes, some games do that, if that's the case, don't play the game, the devs don't deserve your support. Some games have purely cosmetics cash shops, or quality of life cash shops but can be played normally without frustration as a free to play, I think we should focus on those games.
besides of good gameplay one of the major things in rpg for many players is progression of character, as soon as u stop progressing u lost interest. Grind, low drop rate, overrandom stats on gear etc doing a good job for killing temp of progression = kill game.
See, I don't mind some minor pay to win aspects in my mmos. It keeps me from having to stick to a meta I don't find fun. That way I can spend my time in game doing something inefficient but fun, knowing that I can just pick up an extra shift at work and make up the difference that way. Spending less time doing something enjoyable rather than a longer time doing something effective, yet boring also keeps me from burning out on my favorite games.
Another great video! Im starting to wonder if we are stuck with games made in the CashShop Engine...
This phenomenon was one of the things that drove me to fighting games, a genre where your in-game power is determined solely by your own skill, knowledge, and experience. Things which you cannot buy. (Controversy over one-time character DLC purchases aside.)
The kinds of people who can play fighting games on average as long as mmo players do are one in a million. Not quite the same.
@@theremix54bc people who play fighting games have friends in real life lmao
12:10 I did that for several years in WoW until I stopped playing entirely. For me paying gold instead of real life money for the sub wasn't inefficient because I simply didn't need that gold. I was a mythic raider and CM player. I didn't have to buy items or boosts and gold was something I got thrown add while playing what I enjoyed. So I spend that gold for the sub. I also don't care who pays gold/money for items, boosts or whatever. I had better gear than them and was the better player. And even if I would have worse gear I was still the better player and had more fun.
So while this video is good it still doesn't track the whole story, just one single point of view.
Edit: And that is why I don't call WoW pay2win because spending money doesn't make you better or more powerfull. You may get some items in a boost from a raid you never had to progress raid thus you've spend less time but even a way worse geared player who played the game and knows the mechanics, timings, his class etc. is still pushing more DPS etc.
as an addition. you could already buy gold from farmer that sell it illegally. you couldn't really stop that. also people got scammed because it was a shady business. nowadays they can legally buy it and blizzard took the meat of the farmers away which still exist. but I would rather buy it from blizz than from some service that actually aren't allowed to do it.
I partly agree. Problem is, Blizzard put in time limeted rewards like the caravan Bruttosaurus or heroic or mythic rewards. That is what you can not get later and if you lack time or skill you would need to buy for boost.
The "Making more money IRL than ingame" has always been the case. Ever since I was 12 I bought currencies from chinese people in every MMO i touched. Even on allowance I could see how 10 hours of chinese labour converted into 5 dollars.
I love listening to your video essays while I grind through WoW Classic, gives me a lot to think about while playing my favorite game genre
I agree with what you say here, pay to win games are not fair to those who just want to play a good game. I also hate the mobile games stuffed with ads, especially the games offering to double your reward if you watch an ad, if you select "No Thanks", the damned ad plays anyway...
The way I see it. If a game can't respect my time, then I won't give it my time. If it begs me for money, I will not give it money. It has to earn my time or money or it can just rot for all I care.
One thing that wasn't mentioned and I think does more damage to games is that if a game is offering items for cash to make things easier or quicker you can almost guarantee that those items are required because a problem has been built into the game. It's the create a problem and offer the solution for money tactic. These mechanics are often not fun and designed to frustrate players into spending. So even if you don't care about P2W players your game experience is still being made worse purely by P2W existing in the game.
If playing the game isn’t fun in the first place, why would you even want to spend money on it? Or play it, for that matter.
Shouldn’t playing the game be it’s own reward? I don’t play MMO’s. The only MP games I play are shooters generally. If those aren’t fun, they won’t be successful. It seems like MMO’s are somehow exempt from this and I don’t understand why.
If grinding is boring and grinding is most of the game, why do people play it?
It's the skinnerbox mechanic unfortunately. These games give a lot of progress very quickly, then make it slower and slower over time. People want to keep progressing smoothly so they're convinced that they can unlock the fun with money. It helps them a bit, but it doesn't last forever. Then there's the cosmetics that will make them feel more important, more powerful, etc. A lot of psychology goes into it. You're lucky that you're immune to it hehe :D
You can ask the same of gambling addicts. "Why do you keep gambling when you just keep loosing your money? Just stop and walk away! " They cannot stop because they are addicts, and the gambling companies actively work to keep them addicted. The comparison is valid because game devs use the same psychological tricks to addict people. So much so that EA has recruited Gaming Psychologist from Las Vegas to help them design their games.
@@musingartisan Wow, that’s pretty sad. But maybe you’re right?
MMOs quite often use grind as a gating tool - grind enough and acquire enough resources to then be rewarded with fun and interesting content. It's a way to artificially build up playtime and player involvement (often going into sunken cost fallacy territory), but it tends to work, and players to enjoy being rewarded for all their hard in-game work. Various ways of pay2skip or trading grind results for premium currency with other players essentially boil down to one player paying (either the game or another player) to do the grind for them, letting them access rewarding content immediately. It's like cooking - from time to time it's fun, normally it becomes a chore and some people pay others to cook for them (takeaway food etc) just so they don't have to do the chore themselves; end result (tasty food) being the reward.
@@asmonull Reminds me of some bad singleplayer games. There because the grind whas excessive I just cheated myself lot of money. Then I bought all the upgrades to get further and I realized, the content you grind for is actually fucking boring.
One of the reasons I now prefer Singleplayer Games on computer again.
Nobody stressing you and no need to go to work for bad passages.
To be fair though, I'd rather play a game for 10 hours than be at work for 4 hours.
I don't think i could do vorkath for 10 hours though. I think vorkath is probably harder than a minimum wage job lol.
Too bad the ratio is more like 1:50. 1 hour of work is 50 in game. And it's not even good gameplay, it's the boring money-grind professions or something that enable you to do osmething amazing / fun. Vorkath requires A TON of investment... average player doesn't earn 3 mil per hour in RS< more like 500k... so it's 1:20 or 1:30 even.
3 mil an hour is extremely generous.
I think it's fair so long as the game is actually worth playing. Everyone plays games to escape reality and have fun. People who have little time don't have the capacity to play the game long, so having it accessible for them is important. At the same time, people who do have such time should have plentiful content available for them to enjoy. The problem arises when the content doesn't produce entertainment, but instead preys upon a players' need to be "the best".
Earning so much less than minimum wage for playing was one of the larger reasons I quit World Of Warcraft and almost every game I've played in the past 10 years. It takes me about a month of playing a new game before I reach the largest walls and can finally see its the exact same pay to win model and not playing is the best option available.
You may like Black Desert Online then. The game is not Pay to win because of Pearl Abyss. They have a premium item market cap which resets every monday, and a lot of the items, you cant sell on the market. For example, the only cosmetic boxes that can be sold are the classic ones and they are not always available. and are capped(For example at 2 purchases/5 depending on the type. A new player can sell a maximum of 5 Pearl shop items. Black Desert is a good example of 'Pay to loose' because the ammount of silver you can get from just playing the game, heavily outweighs the Premium purchasing of items.
@@mclovingihavenofirstname9072 you can sell now 35 outfit a week and outfit are twice more expensive than before. It's completely p2w
@@raikto6715 That is based on family fame. I have 1400 hours on the game, with 6 characters at 58 and 59, with my main at level 60. I can sell 15 boxes a week. However, even If I could sell 35, anyone who would sell 35 would actually be loosing, thus the pay to loose. At the point of selling 35 a week, you should have multiple characters at level 63, and to sell those 35 at that point would be innefective, considering you can get 500 million/1 billion at Guru making boxes overnight =7 Billion a week. Plus wraiths which drop Deobroka necklaces and Lungs. Per hour of work, even at 10 dollars an hour, You would have to work at least 90 hours a week to sell the 35 boxes at this hourly salary. You can make the value of 3 boxes every night, times 7=24 boxes. Wraiths or playing whatever you want will make you more money than selling boxes. This means you pay to loose.
@@mclovingihavenofirstname9072 First it's not about winnning or loosing , you can pay to progress faster in this game with real money
Second i have 7k family name without a single 63 lvl because they are 22 class in bdo so it's easy to push to the 35 limit (full char 60 is enough).
Third BDO has many inconvenient ingame design with a pay 2 convenience that push player to spend money , like weight , villa buff , tent , value pack , maids , ghilie, lifeskill outfit
@@raikto6715 Guru Boxes are tax free, you get a free tent for progressing in the story, you can buy all the same tent requisite from Old Moon Managers. At the point of doing every character to level 59 e.t.c, you have spent more time doing so than playing the game ,just to spend money on the game, which eats into game time.
9:31 This is within the context of people in the UK, basically your own perspective. But OSRS isn't just a game playable in the west but rather a game available worldwide. Your argument may apply in countries where teenagers can easily get a job and have wages at around 4£ to 8£ an hour, but that doesn't hold true to other countries.
Problem are people who spend money on this. Around 6 years ago i had stable job and i started playing neverwinter, invested huuuuge money into shop, legendary pets, best equipment, most of the campaigns done etc And you know what? I literally got bored of the game after ONE day because i had everything and there was literally no point playing!!! That's why i never understand people who invest money into p2w aspect and then keep playing xD gosh its so boring to play if you literally advanced through "cheated" way, it feels bad.
Most p2w games have open world pvp so you can flex your wealth by killing people that don't whale.
If someone falls hard for p2w they usually feel validated and "god-like" by killing undergeared low level peasants.
@@RiseInAfterlife But its boring as hell xd I don't know if its only me but whenver itried to cheat in single player game i just got bored so fast of that game i quit in hour. I just hate getting something easy, however i feel super proud if i get something hard in a good way.
@@TN51234 Same.
But you forget:
People are generally idiots.
Which is why the whales that go around pvping low level players are usually extremely toxic asshats.
They don't play for fun (cause they skip content and p2w stuff) they want to feel superior. At least after a while, I doubt they'd pick up a game and go in with the aim of p2wing but for fun.
@@RiseInAfterlife That's why its sad, if more people actually focused on game and generally fun then games wouldn't die so fast.
oh no have I been marked for death?
why grind inside the game when you can grind IRL?
And we have since come full circle since MMOs became a thing. What was once a world you could enter to get away from IRL P2W mechanics, has since become the opposite.
Sigh... Neverwinter. The depression sinks back in.
Never has a game pissed all over my hard work and told me to do it all over again.
For me it was Skyforge. Had unlocked all the classes, and my toon was pretty well geared.
Then they changed how you unlock classes, and rerolled all the accounts back to the start.
All the time and effort I invested into unlocking and gearing the classes, gone.
And now, you either have to grind months on end to unlock 1 class, or to pay up to unlock them (with each class costing around 15€)
WoW and FFXIV every new expansion
@@urg6941 Wow, damn, i would have quit on the spot and took a big smelly dump on game's forums if it has those if that happened to me, while insulting publishers, and devs if these are at fault too.
@@DiabolicCrusher I definitely stopped playing, didn't go on the forum because imo, if they are willing to ruin their game like that and screw all players in the process, they won't care.
I still play from time to time, but the game is a lot less enjoyable.
When they changed the class system they also removed the leveling system, which in my opinion made the game 10 times more fun. You still had to grind, and there was a bullshit weekly limit, but at least you could choose where to invest your time.
But nowadays, if you want your toon to get stronger you need to mindlessly grind every day to get your dailies and weeklies done.
@@urg6941 They might not care but going apeshit is a good way to let the steam out, might be just me.The last part sounds like mobile game or korean mmorpg to me.
9:10 - Yes, technically, you make more money in the real world... However, that minimum wage isn't just straight up time->money conversion... There's income tax, national insurance, transport (both time and cost), purchasing outside food (probably from a shop, or truck, or whatever), and events that you might be asked to attend that could cost you personal cash (birthdays, christmas, etc.). This calculation for your true, take-home-income-per-hour, is likely considerably more complex and convoluted than the two-to-three step process of converting real cash->premium currency->in-game currency.
unless u have rich inheritance from boomer overlords who pinchapenny their whole life. Or work a non minimum wage job. But yeah this video's premise is just highlighting like a game junkie addict. Who'd spend their whole paycheck on the game which isn't realistic. But its still realistic to think a whale would spend this each day or week on a game and it does happen quite often. So anyone who is just chill and doesn't wanna participate in blowing their savings is at a loss.
Play Wynncraft.
It has no pay to win.
It actually handles this in a really cool way.
It DOES offer in-game benefits for real money, but the catch is it affects everyone, and I do mean everyone.
Want double XP? Well, the whole server gets it. Want extra items? Everyone gets extra items.
Everything else in the shop is cosmetic.
since minecraft server owners are not companies they are free to implement wacky cash shop systems lol
One game I don't mind the Pay to win model, is ESO. It had the old model of sub + pay for DLC. But if you get the sub, you don't *have to* pay for any DLC. The price is comparable to old MMOs I used to pay for. So I treat it as an infinite free trial.
I do similar for warframe.
I also, feel like it would be handy to include statistics for people who are playing the game. Irl dollar spent per hour played, Gold earned per hour things like that. I don't think it would hurt the overall income of the game because people who spend nothing on the game will more often wonder how the devs get paid, people with gambling issues will have more motivation to rethink their choices, and the rich whales won't care at all how much money they spend.
Love your show! I enjoy your analysis and insight :) please keep it up
Comparing the ingame currency earning rate to its cash shop buying counterpart based on the real world minimum wage rates, is a very compelling method of analysis. I am sure I've never seen this comparison done before. And I can't fault your findings on it.
Honestly, this comparison alone feels worthy of deeper analysis. I.e. Which MMOs fulfill the bar of making time spent earning offline worth more than time spent earning online, in ingame wealth terms. I feel like there is a pretty useful benchmark in there somewhere.
Keep in mind that, at least for WoW, the Europe region includes Eastern Europe as well, and in my country the minimum wage is 3€/h, so for a large part of the playerbase buying gold is not much of an option.
Those are the people Selling the gold, not buying.
Also fails to mention that if you're on a low population realm, there may be no mythic carries to buy with your gold.
yeah on world of tanks we had loads of ukrainians and south americans just selling accounts to make some side income. while the rich americans whale the game. eventually they nerfed gold payouts though to combat it. at one point it was more lucrative to buy sold gold from clans than from the game company itself back in like 2014. tons of russian clans got banned for it.
Where in Eastern Europe? I get 10€/Day :'(
@@MagnaGresh Latvia
Yup, neverwinter..
Fvck craptic
I remember playing an Old browser MMO that gives very huge advantages to Pay to win players. That game was really fun but it got boring really fast if the high ranking whales have nowhere to do and just massacre everyone on the map and block the people from doing their quests.
Amazing video. I re-watched it recently and thought of it last night when my brain went: I refuse to go to sleep, let's think of something random, stance. And yes, it's a really great take on it. Pay to Not Play.
So, I came into this a lot with Shaiya when i played years ago. So much money spent gearing for pvp.
.. and those damn resurrection stones ...
As soon as WoW got big, there were gold sellers. As long as there is a way to exchange real world money for any kind of in game advantage, then people will find a way to make it P2W.
Honesty and transparency has become my measure of whether or not a games monetization is acceptable.
Being able to easily see how much advantage a player can buy and directly evaluate how much things cost is the difference between a Games monetization being abusive or not. If it’s hidden, or obscured, or uses multiple currencies or gambling mechanics to detach players from their spending, it’s probably not worth your time.
I just started playing OSRS two days ago, for the first time.
During my initial login, someone gave me a tour of the city, and one other person, during said tour, randomly asked me if I was new, and handed me 100K gold. I know people will immediately think that I should be exclusively grateful for that, and I was...but the more I thought about it, the worse it started to feel.
In all of these games, I try to be a self-directed player. I don't necessarily just follow the immediately obvious breadcrumbs which the devs put out for me. Usually I will discover some mount or piece or gear which I decide that I want, and then go about figuring out how to get it. The relevant point here though, is that said mount or piece of gear is my objective within the game, and usually they cost a large amount of money. So the process of getting that gold, is actually my event loop in the game.
This means that if someone just walks up and hands me a giant pile of gold, they've essentially destroyed my whole reason for playing the game. I no longer need to go on a journey, because I'm instantly already at the destination.
Hence the real problem with pay to win. If you buy in-game currency, you're ultimately only cheating yourself.
Yeah everyone loses
The non-payers get extra grind *and* see payers leapfrog them
The payers skip all the actual content of the game
@@mitchellhorton9382 I've never believed that the F2P model should exist, to be honest. It is not a model I support. I always pay at least one month's subscription, even if I only play the game for less than an hour.
It is purely a matter of integrity, on the part of both players and developers; but I understand that integrity is becoming an increasingly rare thing, these days.
On the bright side, 100k is really not that much gp. (just by comparison, the game itself hands you 10k for sitting through the account security tutorial) It's helpful starter cash that'll smooth out the early game a tad, but it won't destroy the journey.
@@deathpyre42 This is good to know. Thank you.
@@petrus4 You also could have just not taken the 100k (you had to click 'accept') or not followed the person around the map. That's all on you buddy.
13:39 best quote ever
this video needs to be pinned on the first page of the magic legends reddit
That is why I stick to the RPG aspect rather than the MMO aspect by simply playing RPGs instead of MMORPGs, there is no pay to win if there's only me playing.
yes, I'm still waiting for The Elder Scrolls 6.
There's a crucial aspect I feel you've overlooked with the RS Bonds and WoW Token. Both items are exchanged via the in game auction houses which means they are controlled by the player economy. In a direct correlation you are correct, the efficiency is off. However, if/when more players move to using those methods the prices will fluctuate. If everyone used them they would be worth far less because the supply would start outstripping demand as in game methods become more lucrative. There is so much more going on with these approaches than just a time vs value.
Also, paying to advance in WoW is entirely player-driven and there's literally no way to stop it. The pay-real-money-to-advance thing would still exist (and did exist) without tokens. If players aren't buying the gold from WoW tokens, then they're buying from third-party sites. Even if you tried something drastic like disabling all trading completely, it would still exist. A person could just pay to join a raid and loot the items directly (I know of one specific instance where this happened 15 years ago the first time BWL was released).
Blizz added tokens because the gold farmers disrupt the game for everyone else. An important difference is that the devs aren't designing the game around selling tokens. Games like NWN had pain points then sell "solutions" to the pain points. WoW tokens exist to reduce farming bots.
WoW tokens are basically outsourcing the grind - you pay another player in form of WoW subscription to do certain amount of grinding gold for you.
except that is a false logic do to a thing called inflation, the same reason as to why irl even though most countries have never seen more wealth generated the gap between the wealthy and poor has actually significantly widened
Enjoying this Ruining Games series. You could probably make a bullet point list or spreadsheet to summarize it. Maybe post it in the Discord or something for aspiring devs to reference. A Google doc could work as well.
0:29 😆 Bag of holding, ah yes this will go great with my broom of sweeping and my knife of cutting.
This may be very late, but a bag of holding is a magic item that is larger on the inside than outside.
Generally speaking, what anyone else does has little impact on my game. The problems start when the game is crippled by the cash shop and it's less "pay to win" and more "pay to do anything at all". It's worst with mobile games that will literally prevent you from playing the game for a period of time unless you pay money.
One I enjoyed for a while was Avengers Academy, but over the few months I played, the producers got more and more greedy, so it went from pay to get the best rewards from a monthly event to pay to be able to complete the monthly event at all. At that point I uninstalled it.
Do you think you'll cover paid in-game currencies and their effect beyond pay2win? I find it interesting that most games peddling cosmetics usually set prices where after buying premium currency, you have some left. Thus, you want to buy more to feel as if you're not wasting your premium currency.
I blame Bethesda every time I get a chance. It all started with the horse armor DLC in Oblivion...
I would really like to hear what you think of Warframe's monetization
I feel like they've tried to tame the beast and have done pretty well; the MR levels mean that top weapons are locked behind actually playing the game, and there are enough advantages to the things that generate in-game currency that you can get a fair amount without actively farming it.
For me, I earn enough plat for everything I want incidentally in the process of trying to get the drops out of the relics.
I've paid them I think $50 in 3 years (mostly for slots when I suddenly got a bunch of resources and built a lot of things all at once) and each time I was doing it was much because i felt like they had earned my money as it was for what I wanted to purchase.
Prime weapons and frames that are lvl locked and can be purchased from the prime vault with real money and used regardless of your lvl..
@@JoeyTheOnlyOne1975 That's true, but they're usually the set included with the prime frames not the actual top-tier weapons
I'm not saying it's perfect but they've done a pretty good job
runecraft and wow was immediately in my mind when i thought pay to win, due to bonds and tokens respectively
their communities are really hard in tryna say they're not p2w... its actual insanity
An answer to the efficiency paradox:
Do as I do and play for the fun of playing. For every 10 hours of fun I had in a game, the devs deserve a buck.
I'm really glad other people are talking about the stuff Jim Stephanie Sterling has been warning us about for years. Good on you dude.
Is it just me or has the patreon list grown significantly over the last month?
Seems so.
If so, good for him.
Peeve has been watching some of his videos on stream. I'd guess that's why.
Who doesnt want to watch a british man play an abandoned super trippy video game?
if so that's nice, I wish him and all of you the best
i think there is a lot more to this issue than just this
at least the way i see it as a world of warcraft player who plays at high rating, personally i dont care about boosters, i play a lot of pvp and arena is flooded with boosters but honestly if ur a good player u will shit on them and also its kind of a feedback loop
i know a lot of people hate boosting in wow but for a lot of high end players, myself not included, it is one of their only motivations to play, because some of them actually like to help and teach people and also they get to be part of a community of likeminded high end players who all get to actually play the game all the time because of boosting, and then they take those rewards and buy cosmetics and such on the black market auction house, which i dont really think harms anyone. But i can also understand that players who arent already highly skilled would have trouble competing against boosted players, and i would even argue those people arent actually paying to win, theyre just paying to not enjoy the game lol they probably quit a few weeks after they get boosted. but at least in wow i think its more of an evolution of the community, than a genuine pay to win issue, i would say black desert online is a game with a real pay to win issue, i played it before and u could literally buy everything, pets that pick up items for u, maids to carry your items, upgrade fail protection, upgrade sucess chance, faster mounts, faster everything, stronger everything, and all that without a single middleman or player interaction of any kind...
ESO+ sub gives you a massive advantage in ESO and it's so bad the community denies it's pay for convenience
I agree that it is a massive advantage, IIRC many players I used to play with basically consider it as a monthly sub rather than proper "pay to win"
ESO+ is a sub. If you don't pay for it you are playing the trial
@C V "only". My guy there are other countries outside the US you know where the dollar value is quite high.
@@B1u35kyur brainwashed lmfao
@@fedorkochemasov4533 In Germany if you pay monthly you pay around 12-13 €, so it still sounds not to much. When ESO was released it was sub-only with these costs
as a veteran in guild wars i wanna add something from this experience : you can buy instant lvl 80 to be in endgame directly and then buy the gears with your gems that you transfer into gold but Allways every person that me or my friends met that did that are really bad compare to us because they have the biggest gears and max lvl but they dont know how to play their character/make a build/do rotations or not even knowing the game and i can assure you that in guild wars at least every people that spended their time training for challenging content will allways be stronger then the new casual whale that bought everything but by far (like generally 8 to 10 times if its a dps comparaison) but i think it applies only to guild wars because its a game with horizontal progression
>Grinding in Real Life
>Forgot about the game
>???
>Profit?
You left out one important thing in OSRS: gold doesn't collerate to progression. You can't directly buy xp, and even if you buy high level equipment, you still need the high level to equip it. Noone thinks osrs is pay 2 win, they think the opposite: bonds are a healty gameplay mechanic to keep the game running.
The ironman gamemode in runescape should be put in more games. Have the option to play normal account and 'ironman' mode. If you want to be a non-spending god by putting hundreds and thousands of hours in the game. Then you'll have your own leaderboard and people to compare to
With Ironman mode you are no longer playing an MMO. Trading is what separates the MMO from the other genres.
@@Numbers_Game for me the social aspect of mmo's is what makes it an MMO (like raids, dungeons, events, etc.). Trading and auction house are just a convenience.
@@frednicht1 Social aspect, a sense of community and even multiplayer acitvities aren't what defines MMO's. All of those aspects are shared by different genres.
Hell, you could almost label Fortnite as a kind of MMOFPS by such standards (PVE raids - check, every BR game is a PVP instance - check and events are very much a thing - check).
It has a community, online interaction, multiplayer modes, a world that changes every couple of months and, ironically enough, it has professions in the form of fishing, woodcutting, mining and construction.
What it doesn't have is an ingame economy where players can interact with one another. If ironman mode can be considered an MMO, then the same must apply for Fortnite, Diablo 3 post RMAH, Overwatch, Dauntless, possibly League of Legends and on and on it goes.
@@Numbers_Game You've got some valid points there. And I would say that the current state of most battle royal games, or online games in general atm shouldn't be classified as an MMO.
But if you were to add a social hub of some sort where you could chill and talk with an in game avatar of some sort, while waiting for a queue. I would find it enough added to classify it as an MMO, because you'd be in seeing hundreds of players also waiting for a game. With an opportunity to chat with them.
That extra added social feature and seeing a couple hundred people at the same time makes *For me* an MMO.
But I completely see where you're coming from, most if not all games that have the option of high player count on screen + social features also include trading.
@@Numbers_Game lobby games can't really be MASSIVE multiplayer online games considering interaction is completely regulated by the lobby.
There is only a predetermined set of players you can encounter in Fortnite, LoL..., hence the first M doesn't check out.
The funny thing is that many developers make the game to be harder or nearly impossible in some cases ( bosses with multiple 1shot mechanics for fights that can take up to 5minutes or 10minutes as example ) only to sell the means to get around all of that for real money while acting like they are doing a favour to the player even giving some discounts ( they set the main price in the first place however they want then give a discount practically creating a scam from a scam ) because they are nice.
I feel like it's fine to make your game P2w as long as it's honest about it. Because at the end of the day we make the choice of whether or not to play, so if the game is not fun in theory you won't play it anyway. If it is fun whether it's p2w or not you're probably going to play it. Just really comes down to your enjoyment of the experience I think.
On one hand, companies have a right to monetize their game, especially if it’s out for free, on the other they use deceptive practices to get people to spend money. I think the answer is in the middle, a balance of spending money and getting access to premium content without it being an unfair advantage.
Agreed
Games started to sell currency directly to the players, because many where already buying it outside of games from farmers. This was pretty common in the early days of MMOs, and still continues today. Paying for an advantage has always existed, now it's done in the open, enriching the game developer directly. In life money will always buy power.
If you want a game with zero pay to win, you would have to eliminate the cash shop and make trading between players impossible.
which never goes over well because people want to trade with friends
Somewhere in the future we'll have a system that can detect and prevent trading in-game advantages for real money and it's gonna be glorious. Way better than flying cars
@@furiousdestroyah9999 It's when AI got sentience
all u have to do is make it so players cant control the prices of an economy. but just set them to some standard. then u prevent ppl playing money games to try to get richer than everyone else by price gouging. then u eliminate most of the botters, and money incentive. Then it becomes who can sell the most at the set price. But even if u get huge coin stack u can never flex it because none of the items are priced based off of price gouging. like 2Billion GP for twisted bow on runescape. The only way u could flex would be through quantity. But then u can limit quantity on an account. Then u can only allow accounts to be made off a social security number. Then only allow so many accounts per security number and u get rid of like 1000's of farmers in one fell swoop. Then u can also do crap like lock accounts to IP address and make people pay real money if they move ip address in real life. To prevent botters from selling accounts to new person at new ip.
i generally agree though. People will always find a way to get power with money. period. money is the root issue. but we can't fix it anymore. at least not with the current world order. its the "haves" and "have nots" and to take away from the "haves" will probably start some sort of conflict.
As an mmo player that never spends money on shops or subscriptions
I feel players that do spend money should have a notification above their heads to identify them
As such so u can look around and be like
“Oh he’s a PTW”
Lol
Or there should be separate service for each group
Gameforge is going to watch this video for sure, so they can optimize their store, Work 1 day and buy a new sword! :D
I work a 40 hour a week job for real life reasons. I make my gold in WoW just from my normal playtimes and it amuses me to buy my sub that way. :)
However this series has helped me realize how the mobile games skin players for gold. Had to show that to mom with some of her games.
Unpopular opinion: MMO's should have a balance with their pay to win. We aren't playing Apex where your technical skills matter. We're playing fantasy life simulators where arbitrary numbers in many cases decide things. Therefore, I shouldn't be penalized for working 8 hours while someone else sits in mom's basement jerking off as they play.
That being said. The game play for our MMO's is the real issue. A player should NOT need to do a tedious task to earn certain things. MMO's need to focus things on actual grand adventures not waiting till we hit endgame for a semblance of fun. Also gear should be dynamic anyway, where there are many viable options. Lastly the in/out-game rich should not be rewarded with being the "best" as that framework has corroded our MMO games when it should be about what adventure is to be had in this world or whatever the player has set for that day.
Exactly. The student and the unemployed and the ill and the one in moms basement should be able to enjoy the game just as much as the 40 hr jobber who has to pay rent and bills and can put a bit aside for their favorite game.
I think if person working a job wants to get competitive. then play a competitive game. If they want MMO with their time. Then expect to invest a lot of time. Because its about the full game experience for an mmo. Not just the money to catch up to some theoretical end game competitive content that probably isn't that competitive. anyway. I guess MMO genre has watched competitive genre and always been in the backseat. Which makes sense because mostly kids play video games anyway. So i guess real life money for MMO's is to cater to that audience who wants the competitive. But only stupid workaholics wanna do that. Why don't people want bigger worlds with more things to do? Its like they just want to be the best at something because they aren't happy at work so they spend the paycheck to try. Idk. Its just f**king stupid. You're never gonna beat the 16 year old at competitive anyway with reaction times. MMOS should just get back to their own field.
It actually drives me up the wall when people make me argue about this.
I understand this is outside the scope of the video, but most minimum wage jobs aren't much fun, and neither do you get to set your own schedule. Games are supposed to be fun, and while many f2p games set it up to be less fun unless you spend money on them, you can usually still find some with good enough core mechanics and enough content that you can enjoy them for free or almost free. If you're suffering through content in order to get stronger, you should probably try to find less efficient but more fun ways to get stronger; if the gameplay itself has become suffering for you, stop playing!
This was soooo good , subbed
Jokes on you, I do afk money makers WHILE working from home so I win double! Jokes aside there is one major point you missed with the OSRS bonds and WoW tokens, they are necessary evils to reduce real world trading. Even if Jagex and Blizzard didn't allow it players would still be buying gold in both games through shady means that hurt the games FAR more than allowing players to trade gold for membership. Giving an official way that also allows player to get membership in exchange for a version of pay to win that was going to exist with or without dev approval? Sounds fine to me.
apples to oranges but okay lol
I enjoy making currency in wow and then buy game time with it and add balance to my account. It's not efficient and with a day of work i can make more than weeks of grinding currency. But i enjoy that aspect of it. Took me years to learn the auction house, and how the people behave, trying to find the days and hours they would make the most impulsive bad decisions. Finding the right spot so the price of an item is as high as possible while also low enough that people consider it ok for buying. Trying to manipulate prices, or be better than my competitors by resetting the prices to a normal range without them take notice (especially when they sell too low). I am proud of it to be honest. I spend around 30 minutes a day now doing it. I don't grind for materials anymore, i actually wait for their prices to reach a certain low, buy then and craft items. If you can make a game out of it, it's enjoyable. If you grind all day every day, while listening to podcasts and loving it, it's worth it. If you grind but hate it, but you want the currency, you're better of working irl.
I agree. For some players such systems can become their virtual stock market. Imo it is the most efficient thing to do to get your tokens. Can be a lot of fun too.
One of my good friends in wow is like you. I'm never going to "get it" but I respect the skillset.
@@CToast have you ever done something irl that requires time and effort and dedication? And because you invested in it, after some time, it gives back? And continues to give back? You make the effort and enjoying the rewards. I actually do it in most games with similar systems. It's a bit the same feeling as making a strong character after you invest in them. I feel that my dedication pays off and that is a nice feeling. Hard work paying off.
@@imadeyoureadthis1 I sure have. I just don't feel the need to do that in my offtime, in a game
This is why private servers are way better than official ones, in most cases anyway.
Damn, new Lazy Peon AND new JSH?! What a fucking beautiful day.
What is most terrifying is that even if a game is not pay to win, the community will make it pay to win. Looking at WoW Classic: WoW tokens don't work, so you can't buy gold... from Blizzard... You can buy it (illegally) from other sources thou. And the community adjusted to it, so "skilled" players can help whales get their gear by selling raid boosts for gold or in so called GDKP runs (gold dragon kill points), simply to milk those players. So if you have the abilities, you can best earn gold not by spending money on it, but by milking the whales, since one milkage only takes about 2 hours and gets you sometimes a thousand gold. Or you just drag one or two whales along for a small bonus.
i mean that's obvious and existed in OG wows prime days. thats 1 reason blizzard introduced the token. gold sellers always existed but nowadays you can do it without getting scammed and legally. and you can maybe even finance your sub with your playtime
i mean that's obvious and existed in OG wows prime days. thats 1 reason blizzard introduced the token. gold sellers always existed but nowadays you can do it without getting scammed and legally. and you can maybe even finance your sub with your playtime
The whole video as the channel is excelent. Josh S, as always excel at YT Videos. Is important to notice 2 mayor things on the "pay to win" model of games:
The game need to maintain itself +to the buyers
The game need to be popular +to the player base.
We need the two kind of "gamers" to be able to keep alive a certain game.
This is so true. I played BDO recently and not only the comunity doesnt admit the game is p2w, its literaly not worth to even play the game. Entire systems are locked behinda pay wall although the game pretends they are not. Never have i seen so many wales as i have seen in BDO
Game is def still worth playing. But Its so fucking cringe the way they try and sugarcoat it "no bro its not p2w its pay for convenience" literally BS you have Outfits that give XP, The p2w tent, pets that give better abilitys than the free ones. Not to mention the fucking inv slots I practically need to buy em so Im forced to haul a fucking wagon with me all the time.
Bdo has nice graphic and combat but that's kinda where it ends
Yeah BDO has alot of whales and when you mention it being P2W they are quick to defend it since they participate in it, the game is not worth playing as a f2p imo.
@@sonfable8809 You got weight and inv slots you get like 50 by playing the MSQ and im still playing and havent got a slot in a very long time. You got outfits they can be paid for with in game currency assuming someones selling them. Value packs in order to get your moneys worth you NEED value packs losing 30% of profits sucks. You got the p2w tent that you can carry everywhere that repairs gear has a vendor that sells Large HP/Mana potions and has like 25 storage slots. All you gotta do is take a look at the pearl shop
@@Dark74111 Imo its def not F2P friendly you need to buy value packs and there like 10 bucks a month just to not lose profits. You dont need pets but some give a def advantage
I was thinking about gold/irl money per hour in the exact way you describe it in your video. But I don't think that's entirely accurate/applicable. Maybe if you're working freelance and you make your own hours - then yes, and are paid by the hour, then that is exactly how it is. But most people work fixed hours for fixed monthly salary, and it doesn't matter how much time they spend in game, they will have the same amount of disposable income. I do not have the option to stay 2 hours more after work, and get paid for two hours more, so I cannot choose to do that instead of farm gold for two hours in game after work... But i guess that makes me a lot more inclined to buy the gold with real money, since my time for playing is so limited... or get a second part-time irl job solely for earning in-game gold?
I wish you can make a video about the Eastern and Western Differences of MMORPG and its social, cultural and marketing differences, etc. and Why Western thought MMORPG are "Dead" or "Dying" While in the East thats not case.
I heard Neverwinter is owned by china, maybe that's why it sucks
I'd like to second that notion and i'm convinced that josh is up to the task
Cuz the eastern culture they are workaholics. They don't have time to think about these kinds of things. and anyone who isn't gets shunned.
“So they pay to not play the game they pay to play?”
“I’m told it makes sense.”
From FoxTrot, when Jason tried to become a gold farmer.
Black Desert ends up being pretty alright, definitely not amazing, besides the value packs which are like wow subs. Other than that it is literally thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars to reach endgame which very few people ever do.
Nice to see someone else who genuinely knows what's going on in BDO. I'm getting tired of hearing the same recycled "BDO is just p2w" or "you just pay to skip to max level" bullshit. never has a game inspired me to actually enjoy the grind like BDO because it's not just "a grind." it feels like a learning experience. did I just spend three days learning life skills to craft an outfit when I could've just bought a different one? absolutely. but I enjoyed the grind and in the end the outfit truly feels like my own and not just another store bought cosmetic
@@beebeebe5916 artisans memory essentially allows you to have 20 memory fragments act as having 100 of them, and they are essential for upgrading boss gear.
pets. the tent. value pack. kama blessing. book of combat.
bdo is by all definition p2w, as you pay to advance faster. much faster. have fun grinding zones with two tier 1 pets
Im glad someone finally pointed out how World of Warcraft Abuse our skill to create a "Pay to win" environment without having to do it themselves (Offer wow token > Make boosts for Gold legal by ToS (No RMT tho) > People buy tokens to buy boosts and blizz collects 100% profit since the guys boosting spend it on BoE epics or special mounts that were supposed to be for people who collected the cards back when they existed etc.
Subscription model is the best model for game quality. No other model is as good. Now, if only greedy publishers would just allow that to happen for the long-term health of their game instead of very frequently going for the money grab.
Sub 2 play games: Laughs in timegating
@@davidxu5466 Timegating is literally reason why i stopped playing wow since Legion, i pay monthly and i cannot even grind whole day because theres nothing to do, have to wait whole week to do raids or create other alts, stupid af
most sub 2 play games:
"But what if...
*slaps cash shop onto it to make even more money*
yeeeeeeees"
Sub games have the same shit as f2p ones have.. I was playing eso the other day walked up to a stablemaster cleary selling guars but when I speak to him he only sells horses... 😩 so turns out its only for premium currency and in the cash shop wtf Bethesda think this is f2p or somthing 😂 😂
The money is really hard to resist. It has been proven that f2p with p2w cash shops makes WAAAY more money then subscriptions. The only reason WoW and ff14 have stayed as sub games is because they're established IPs with tons of fans. Every mmo that tried sub went f2p within a year of release and/or died.
12:50 Reminds me when I was playing a game and I was level 60 with decent gear for my level and spending no many and then I go to the Arena and see a little 30 person I challenged them and they killed me in 3 hits and their speed were so much higher that I didn't even get a chance to get 1 attack in before they killed me. And again they were half my level but had gear that was easily 4x better than mine.
Experienced thje same in World of Warships. A genious game completely ruined by corporate greed and incompetence.
agreed and same with tanks
oh 100% agree esp on runescape 3 that is riddled with "MTX" you can outright buy xp with keys, you can buy ingame money indirectly with Bonds. Constant promotions basically demand you buy them, you even get daily keys in hopes youll get hooked.