The Idolatry of Youth Culture in Worship
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- How can worship be shaped in such a way that it confronts our culture's obsession with the young and new?
In this video: Mike Cosper, Kevin Twit, Isaac Wardell
Permalink: thegospelcoalit...
I am speaking from my personal experience here. I experienced this performance, rock concert type of worship while I was going through middle school and into high school as a member of a big church. We went to conferences that gave us a sense of an emotional high that we attached to Jesus and salvation. Then once I got to be about 17, I started asking tough questions at church and there just was not a venue for youth ministry students to have mature discussions. It was a fast process for me to start seeing the whole worship experience as a very shallow and industrial product rather than something that actually engaged me spiritually, and I left church once I left home at 18. I am now back involved in a church that is very focused on serving its community and not distracted by an industrial approach. Anyone with a similar experience can feel free to reach out to me for discussion! God bless
Matt Saunders I get it as well I was a young person who took their religion really seriously and was frustrated with Some of this I belonged to a more conservative church the Catholic Church but this was Vatican II a revised version and "fake" version of the catholic faith. Really a drag. I got interested in the traditional catholic church. The real church. Way better!
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Glad you made it back, many don't, they leave and just keep on walking... sad but true. Truth is repetitive two or three chords and soft drumline are easily discerned as "shallow" to someone wanting to mature, I don't go to church for a psuedo-rock concert, nor psuedo-rock concert expecting church, I am just what I consider too mature or too old for either...
Several years ago my husband, pastor of a church, moved our band over to the side. The musicians loved it. They didn’t want to be up front as they felt they were performing. Instead, they wanted to be worshippers and not being looked at.
Great madam, does your Church has a website that I can look into for my individual edification?
Hey guys I am a subscriber of TGC and follower of the most high Jesus Christ. I love the Christian Music Culture and love the band at our church and many of the other churches that I watch online. This is one of the main ways that I came to know Christ and something that keeps me close to him every day. Many times the band is good to have front and center because they can be a shining example for others on how to worship. Many times they set the tone.. It is obviously only one of the infinite number of ways that we can Glorify our Father in heaven, but one that is so powerful as music. Listening to Phil Whickham as i am writing this to you and I don't idolize him or any of the other band members.. they help me get closer to God. I heard it said once that God created music as a way for us to get closer to him... I find that this statement holds a lot of value. Wishing the best to you all and keep up the good work!
But see, there is one issue with your language here: "Many times the band is good to have front and center because they can be a shining example for others on how to worship." That is frankly not their job or role. Worship is a personal interaction between man and God and, ultimately, a lifestyle. Anything and everything we do is to be done as worship (Colossians 3:23). Anyone who believes that worship is confined to music before the sermon has a very myopic view of it. The only reason they are permitted in front of a congregation is that God has given them skills and talents allowing them to serve the church by providing the melody and background music for the congregation's time of corporate worship. In other words, like these guys were saying, they are servants. When we look to them as "examples" or "leaders" (in the pastoral or managerial sense) they begin to be put on a pedestal they were never meant to be on.
I "led worship" for 24 years in 4 different churches, and have been saddened by what is now called worship in today's churches. As a P/W leader, I always tried to connect with the people, and would make it a point to look at their faces and body language. I viewed myself as an usher, whose responsibility was to ensure people would be brought into the presence of the Lord. I actively sought out people's opinions as to what hindrances might occurring during the music time of worship, and if I heard the music was too loud from several people, I'd turn it down. I mixed modern contemporary worship songs with hymns, never allowed any extended soloing, and told every team member that their main job each week was to worship and not perform. The role of the "praise and worship leader" should always be focused on the people and not on performance, or to fit within a certain age group, or even to set up the pastor's message; it's to get people into His presence, and once that happens, everything else falls into place. My heart breaks when I go into a church that has black walls, high powered lighting, and smoke machines as the focus of the worship, and I see that people are not entering into the worship, they're just watching passively. Wake up church, before its too late. JMTCW.
We have Lauren Diagle to thank for that.. Smh
The Juvenilization of American Christianity by Thomas Bergler, is an excellent book that explores the factors and enculturation that has gotten the American evangelical church to where it is today. Christianity Today featured an article entitled “When Are We Going to Grow Up? The Juvenilization of American Christianity” that reviews Bergler’s book. Hits the nail on the head!
Lord! I was just talking to someone about this the day... the culture, Christian culture caters to the young..
Christina Taylor that's actually the opposite of how it's supposed to be. The bible upholds elders.
I've listened to this several times and agree with a lot of what these wise men are saying. But they still seem to make the worship music about me, preparing my heart for God...And in a sense it is, a minor sense, but isn't my worship music about glorifying God? My pastor said it well once, if I can get this straight, we the congregation are the performers in worship music, the worship leaders are the conductors, and God is the audience
he's quoting Kierkegaard who said it about 100 years ago :-)
I love this. This is actually part of what brought me to Anglicanism. I'm very glad my evangelical brothers here are seeing the problems with modern worship. (Sidenote: I'm part of an Anglican parish near Nashville, called St. Patrick's Anglican Church, in Smyrna. I think one of the speakers was talking about Redeemer in Nashville, which I love as well.)
I think the better skilled you become at your instrument, the easier that skill becomes, and the easier it is to worship at the same time. But it's a process. You have to develop as a musician to get there
I have not doubt, in many churches today, if the stage was BEHIND the congregation, more than half of those leading 'worship', would no longer serve on the worship team. Too many churches are nothing more than rock concerts/comedy clubs/pop culture therapy sessions, being marketed using the gospel as the 'grabber'.
Matthew 21:12-13New International Version (NIV)
Jesus at the Temple
12 Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’[a] but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’[b]”
What if you flipped this and made the pastor stand in the back? Will their message still be conveyed as well on Sunday morning through audio only?
@@michaelloyola323 - But we are to fellowship one with another.
There are many ways to worship GOD!!! Some ways are sacrificial.
Michael Loyola the sermon is not the same as what the musicians are doing.
' The artist' mentality! Yessssss wow..
Is it weird that the video is in an almost black and white grain? Lol.
The thing I agree with the most is for worship leaders to have a sense of servanthood more than a sense of being artists only.
A heavy leaning on one side of the tandem to the neglect of the other is unhealthy. A healthy balance is key for growth as the body of Christ!
Thank you Kevin, Michael and dude in suit for sharing these thoughts!
Can't stand the worship of the worship leaders.. Smh
#IsaacWardell, I am hoping for things like #PortersGate and #BifrostArts to reflect this more fully. If you're over 35, you aren't cool enough to be worship leader, let alone play in the band. I have a friend who is very skilled and experienced in this area. A recruiter contacted him and was positively effusive about how much his client church would be excited about talking with my friend. But a few days later the call came from the recruiter that the church "wants to go in a different direction." In other words, you don't have skinny ripped jeans and you're over 40.
What helped me overcome to worship in Truth and Spirit was 'Hope Beyond Hell' by Gerry Beauchemin.
I only made it halfway through, as I could not bear to hear "songs of praise" being called "worship" one more time. Worship is also expressed in personal prayer and obedience in our everyday lives, so referring to it as the music in church stains its meaning. Dreadfully so.
I think they realize that songs are just one form of worship.
It's about Spirit and truth as said in John 4:24. The CEV puts it a great way ...'led by the Spirit, according to truth'. There's a symbiosis which needs to occur.
Yes please say this Louder!!👍🏽
If we are led by the Spirit we won’t fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We MUST be Willing to be led by the Holy Spirit of God, so HE can tell us “What”, “How”, and “When” to do something. So many of us are led by what we feel and think. Which is not what we should be led by. The steps of a righteous man are order by the Lord. Please God order our steps and action.
We do need to take it back to the early church. What we have going on now is NOT yielding results.
Those that lead in worship should be trained. Just as I wouldn’t go to a doctor that was trained on the internet, I wouldn’t submit myself to worship leaders that are untrained.
So balanced.
Concert and lecture is not worship.
When they say worship...do they mean music?
Unfortunately, yes. In this day in age, worship is only used with the consensus of music. I hate the phrase "lead you in worship," because first, it makes the point that the only way to worship is through music, and second, I cannot worship the Lord without the guiding hand of a fellow-Christian. I have a serious problem with modern-day church music because it has created exactly what Mike, Kevin, and Isaac are talking about.
I don't think the phrase "led you in worship" implies worship is only with music, and can only be engaged in when you have someone leading you. It simply states that in that circumstance someone led worship. In the OT their were people who wrote music for god to be worshipped with;the psalms, David, asaph. The worship leader is simply someone directed us in the activity of worshipping God, with the hope that we continue to carry out that activity through our lives. Is modern worship someone flawed due to the depravity and fallen state of the human race? Yes. But does that mean there is something inherently wrong with worship leaders? No. Music is powerful, that's why David used it. David himself was an adulterer. There has always bee corruption in the church.
More of the younger generations of believers will believe the Victorious Gospel / Blessed Hope :) 1 John 2:2, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, 4:9-11. Colossians 1:15-20, Romans 5:17-19 and more!
Isnt this idolatry of old hyms, Im just saying. I still think music grows and changes, and passes, it all passes. The orthodox believe that their songs are the only ones to use for worship. But I have seen the old form of worship also held on to the point of idolatry. It became boring. Change is good.
This was very insightful.
Here's the tough part...I work with lots of RUF students and you know what they say? "We love the teaching at RUF, but the music is lame." I agree. There is great modern worship music that is not "me centered" that is Biblical and Christ-centered...and is not a re-dressed up old hymn. The problem of the "Youth culture" argument is that it often assumes that the opposite is true "If it's old it must be good". Go pick up your hymnal...I guarantee that in the 500+ hymns that are in there you'd be hard pressed to find 100 that are sing-able, Biblical, Christ-centered and useful today. Yes, let's call out the "new is not good just for new-sake" but the same goes for the old.
I’m so tired of seeing music leaders and pastors in skinny jeans and Hawaiian shirts, songs that is anthropomorphic, very little scripture and the only prayer a sinner’s prayer at the end of the event (I wouldn’t even call it worship).
Woah Dixie don't hate on my skinny jeans 😂
Concert hall vs lecture misses what WORTH-SHIP is of the Almighty and holy God. “Excellence” can be defined as paid performer like, sounds like pro musicians, ... does not excuse mediocrity but many places have to utilize what they got and volunteers available.
We are supposed to worship in spirit and in truth....so long as we are worshipping with all our hearts, in order, and the songs are grounded in truth and lift up the Lord (and we submit to one another....like blowing someone's ear drums out or causing their chest to burst because of the volume...or maybe other issues... to the point where their attention is taken off of the Lord....that's the only requirements I see.)
When did Louis CK get saved and become a worship leader in Virginia?
Liked this
I’m tired of the obsession of kids and married people in churches, and to the exclusion of single people, the widows and those alone.
Interesting. I’m always encouraged more by informal conversation than by any other form of communication these days, for starters. I almost wish I would’ve heard this when it was published. But I’m grateful I didn’t. The only reason why I haven’t discarded all my equipment yet is because the Lord isn’t done with me yet. Thanks again…
Wow. This is really right where I live. Thanks...
I don't like worship teams at all. I think it's pretty much a Calvary Chapel invention, it's like playing Simon Says. lol
Oh Brother what? What’s wrong with worshipping God?
Kevin Twit ain't no twit! He makes some very valid points.
I need to see an update on this video... this questions important to ask with the rise of new churches making it seem cooler to be in church which i I feel like they haven't made the distinction between
1.worship music
2.worship leaders
3.what the bible says about worship leaders
4. an actual definiton of worship in the bible and where it comes from might be a good idea as well for context
5. hymns and today's christian music their separation
The idea of celebrity in music (i see them use the example of the artist with a closeup of his face was good but i can't imagine they were playing his songs bc most churches just do covers of whatever Chris Tomlin and Hillsong have brainwashed)
Artist vs Worship leaders
You can be both I would think
big question im not seeing that they answered : could you thrive as one not the other and still do both?
That idea of "too many churches are nothing more than rock concerts/comedy clubs/pop culture therapy sessions, being marketed using the gospel as a 'grabber'." frankly confuses me because I see it as a response to culture. Christ > Culture doesnt mean they can't have pop culture it just means christ has to prevail over it. I think if the message of God is to have its affect and transform we must change our approach...I was taught that worship is more than music and hymns are not always the best way to go as culture shifts Christ doesn't so should we not just focus on the main thing Does the music playing edify God?
Evangelicals... Sorry, but when every pastor looks like Adam Levine or some "hips"ter....
Just because someone with a guitar is in front does not make them a celebrity! Why doesn’t this Pastor preach from the back of the room then also? Lol
that is the history behind the pulpit, they were huge for the very purpose of hiding the pastor
jonathan chamblee lol “hiding the pastor” where did you get that from? 😂😂
@@metalelder14 no its for audio reasons. So he can be heard without mics
What a stupid comment Caleb. Read.
It think the man with the black glasses has his shirt on inside-out.
:))
Thats how he worships
😂
5:45 love this idea
good word
MEGA DITTOS!
What a racket.
This could use some black people.
funstuff81girl why?
Because, as a video about you and worship culture, it's missing a major perspective. With someone from a more black church experience added along, it would be more useful to a greater group, and have more food for insight.
I agree that they could use some more insight about other types of churches, but I guess they all were basically speaking about their own experiences. I don't think they actually consider themselves to be experts in all forms of worship in all types of churches. I feel that some of these things could apply to black churches though, and latino ones as well (I'm puerto rican and live in Spain, so it's different here also). Do you think there is an issue in Black churches with idolizing worship leaders/artists or trying to be more trendy or youthful than genuine? what's your experience?
funstuff81girl well since the church is meant to convert everyone yes!