Could armor get scalding HOT in the Sun? REPLY to scholagladiatoria
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- Опубліковано 9 лют 2025
- This as a reply to @scholagladiatoria and Matt Easton if armor could get soo hot that surcoats were worn to protect it from the sun? : • Did CRUSADERS wear SUR...
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While the comments are fighting over "It's for looks" and "it's for function",
I'm sitting here, thinking, it can be both. It serves a functional purpose and then we decorate it. Form and function are not mutually exclusive.
Modern world seems to have made that separation, you get it for form, or you get it for function, but rarely both. Why waste materials and time to decorate a functional item? It is the result of maximization and optimization of manufacture, but that does cause modern people to think less of how to make something functional also decorative at the same time.
Pre-electronic IFF.
@@littlekong7685 Not to mention highly decorated dagger and sword hilts in history worn by those who could afford it. And that idea survives now in video games like Call of Duty, where you can put skins on your weapons.
same way modern think that politics and Military is seperate ,rome is a prime example how much bs the whole Military and Warrior are jist loyal dudes who dont care about politics. its very annoying in films like Gladiator where maximus is only that weird ass loyal modern Soldier type that is a freaking unicorn in roman times especially in the ranks of Military commanders
It's like gaming pcs!
Because the normal Coats hadn't been knighted yet!
Ha!
Sir Coats are the only coat worthy of the title Sir, and therefore only coat worthy of a knight.
Loved this comment!
TOTES ‼️🎉 GREAT 👑🇨🇰 #COMMONWEALTH HUMOR ‼️😁🍵🤩
But everyone could have mail tho right?
Heraldry was developed to determine who was your ally or enemy. The surcoat often had matching colors.
Visual IFF!
@MonkeyJedi99 Unfortunately for them, that won't stop friendly fire from beyond visual range. So I still have an excuse when I hit them with my trebuchet's 90kg projectile from over 300 meters.
@@lonelystrategos ayyy nice, a catapult joke
@@lonelystrategos An unfortunate accident that no one could have predicted, just like the last 23 times it happened
As someone who wears plate armor in the deserts of the western united states, the armor will absolutely get blisteringly hot to the point that one day I poured water over my helmet and it hissed and steamed. However, I wear a cloth gambeson underneath with acted as an insulator from the outside, but allows my sweat to wick heat away. So as long as I stay hydrated I'll feel perpetually icky from constantly sweating but my internal temperature can be maintained.
By logic shiny armor is best at reflecting radiation. Painted metal would probably get even more hot in the sun. There is a reason sunscreens for cars are usually made of reflective shiny foil. So i bet the best result is shiny armor outside to reflect more radiation combined with insulating padding underneath to counter high thermal conductivity of metal. And also allow some ventilation and evaporation. Important notice here: shiny metal also reflects radiation emitted by a body back inside, but it's kinda low compared to the sun radiation. Still important to remember that reflection, emission, and insulation always works both ways.
I know it's not historically accurate, but you might try wearing a polyester baselayer to wick away moisture and allow air flow to dry quicker.
@@fireline4765 But you don't want to be dry, when its really hot. In my experience soaking your gambeson with water helps a lot to not get a heat stroke.
“Perpetual icky” is my summertime existence.
You work at the Renaissance festival in AZ 😂
Shad you should visit Britain one day! It'd be awesome to see you spar with the English sword-tubers and geek out over real life castles and the royal armouries
If I'm not mistaken, he will be in September.
@@WhatsaMoniker Shad said he was going to France and England in August/ September. He said he may do a meet up also.👍
doubt he can do long term combat with his... well, condition
@@philipbaudains9154I hope he meets up with the Knight Of Beige when he's there
Where does he live?
One thing Shad points out about how the surcoat is an extra layer of insulation which would make you _even hotter..._
We do see frequently that large voluminous garments are used when traversing the open desert because they're insulating... which makes them retain their temperature longer, even if that temperature is 'cool.'
While I doubt this is why they wore surcoats, insulating clothing is typically worn on longer treks through the heat once it gets to a certain temperature and body cooling by ventilation becomes effectively impossible. At that ambient temperature, trying to maintain internal temperature becomes more viable than trying to stay cool.
Obviously though the best thing would be to wear a mylar robe with a condenser-evaporator built in.
And they prefer dark colours as well, light colours tend to reflect light in all directions, and the wearer is in one of those directions. So the cloth is cooler, but the wearer is much warmer as a result. Dark on the other hand absorbs more, so the cloth gets warm but the user stays cooler. And once out of the heat the dark clothes can be set aside and the heat is effectively shed instantly. White clothes once removed, they have already passed a good amount of heat to the user already, so not much is gained (or heat lost a sit were).
_"One thing Shad points out about how the surcoat is an extra layer of insulation which would make you even hotter..."_
IF the surcoat was thick and worn tightly then it would indeed insulate you, but if it was thin and worn loosely, then not so much.
_"We do see frequently that large voluminous garments are used when traversing the open desert because they're insulating... which makes them retain their temperature longer, even if that temperature is 'cool.'"_
I don't think this is why they are worn. Loose garments are worn because they enable air to keep circulating, which is what keeps you cool. Full length garments are worn to protect the skin from sunlight.
exacly, termal isolation works both ways
@@GonzoTehGreat " Loose garments are worn because they enable air to keep circulating, which is what keeps you cool."
Also couldn't loose dark garments end up providing more circulation than loose light garments? The heat stays at the surface of the garments, and the heated up air rises; pulling in more air.
Loose dark garments can allow for air convection - essentially air flow through the clothes which can have a cooling benefit.
Speaking for myself, the surcoat has always been one of my favorite pieces of armor from medieval history. So glad to see this!
Metal chainmail gets hot when in the sun! but it under a gambeson! under cloth!
is it still hot? I didn't know!
great information Shad!
As an addition to the point of "telling friend from foe", back in the day, when the people directing battles could only really do it via visual means, being able to tell where each unit was, how it was functioning, and whether it needed support etc. at a glance, would have been immensely valuable. Particularly as the battles got larger. It was probably less about individual soldiers, and more about how the army functioned as a whole.
that is why we had battle standards. unit flags to show where the unit is and what it was doing. you would have a specific number of those per specific number of solders in unit so you could tell with a glance exactly how many of them are still in the fight and where from a hill safely away from combat.
surcoat gets muddy and bloddy and torn and is far harder to see in melee then a flag held by one dude on a pole above the fighting. if that flag fell you knew there were no functional unit there.
On first thought. It makes sense. As radiant heating from the sun would make the mail hotter to the touch, than mail that is kept in the shadow of a thin (light color especially) cloth covering over the mail. Be an interesting test for you to put a section of mail into the sun and a section of mail under a light colored cloth and test the temperature. May be even better to put a pork roast under each of them and use meat thermometers to see if one roast (mailed body) gets substantially hotter than the other.
I’m just starting the video, so you may answer this soon.
The thing with cloth is you actually want dark cloth. Better the cloth absorbs the heat than it reflects it back onto the wearer. This is why so many desert dwellers prefer dark clothing. It is certainly possible to get a tan from reflected white cloth with enough time and exposure.
@@littlekong7685 _"The thing with cloth is you actually want dark cloth."_
Not true at all. White reflects both sunlight and heat better than black, which is usually the worst color to wear if you're trying to keep cool.
_"This is why so many desert dwellers prefer dark clothing."_
They don't. It's not always possible to wear white, but this is partly why light colors are the most popular when outdoors in hot countries. People wore darker colors for many reasons, but it wasn't to keep cooler.
_"It is certainly possible to get a tan from reflected white cloth with enough time and exposure."_
You tan from direct or indirect sunlight, not heat. The tan is your skin producing melanin to counter the damage caused by UV. Worn clothes can transfer to you some of the heat they absorb, but any light is reflected away, so it doesn't reach your skin, which is why they offer protection from the sun.
@@NemFX _"You want white to deflect radiation, you want black to absorb a certain level of heat."_
This does make sense, but then I'd expect them to wear white over black, not black over white. The outer white layer reflects sunlight, preventing the inner black layer from getting hot, which could then absorb body heat.
_"The Bedouins for example, wore black over white."_
The outer black would get hot in the sun but the inner white would prevent some of this heat from reaching the skin, so it might work, but it still seems inferior to the reverse.
@@NemFX After a quick Google search, I found a Nature article which tested this and there wasn't an appreciable difference between White and Black, in terms of the amount of heat absorbed over 30 minutes. This was because while the Black robe absorbed more heat, it also radiated it away more quickly.
_The results were clear. As the report put it: "The amount of heat gained by a Bedouin exposed to the hot desert is the same whether he wears a black or a white robe. The additional heat absorbed by the black robe was lost before it reached the skin."_
So, it would seem that wearing loose, full covering robes is more important to keep cool than what color they are, at least for short periods in the sun. I'm not sure what this tells us about wearing surcoats...
@@NemFX Yes, there could indeed be other reasons, if the color doesn't make much difference after all. (See my other reply)
As a person living in Israel and having served in the army in all types of weather, I can tell you that, yes, metal gets super hot in the sun (try putting your hand on a tank that's been out in the sun all day in summer in the south of Israel...) but even a thin glove makes a huge difference. We simply wore gloves and it wasn't a problem. Obviously, as stated in some comments, people would avoid actions in the middle of the day, in hot weather, and I assume it was the same in the past. Further more, covering your body from the sun is important, and layers can and were used to maintain the body in the varying temperatures of the desert, but overheating is more a matter of wearing too much, and not a question of material. Probably the hardest thing for us was training in HASMAT kit, gas mask and all - covering the head and face made a huge difference and guys would actually faint often. Lastly, it is important to remember that a lot of the holy land is NOT desert. Temperatures in Galilee and the north of Israel, including Lebanon and Siryah (which were a part of crusader territories) can get quite low and you even get snow at winter time; costal areas are more temperate and humidity is more of a problem. Weather is very varied in this region.
As someone that was in the US Army from 2005 to 2009, I to had to deal with high heat in areas I was stationed at. A due to the negligence of my CO when I was stationed in South Korea, I suffered a heat stroke. And yeah, tanker friends of mine told me they had to wear gloves for their tanks due to how hot they got in Iraq. So, yeah, what you said is correct.
@@forgerofsouls9126 hope you recovered from the heat stroke. Just curious how would soldiers handle the heat when their CO isn't being as you say "negligent"?
@@shadowwolf2608 Typically when outside in a training environment they don't wear their full battle outfit, patrols are not lengthy (typically between 15 minutes to 30 minutes long instead of the usual 1 hour length), and the soldiers mostly stay in the shade.
When on post and not in a battlezone, we normally wear only the baret (or softcaps, depending on the situation) and typically work indoors when it is hot outside, and when working outdoors, you are supposed to get breaks often while working in the shade as often as possible.
My CO did not do any of that while we were out in a field exercise despite being over 100F (over 37.7C) AND despite the fact that the post command gave the orders to adhere to the above. My CO did not, she had us in the sun, wearing the full battle rattle, and full 1 to 2 hour long patrols. I was not the only victim of the heat that day, to top it off, even our First Sergent passed out due to the heat right in front of out Battalion CO when he arrived to inspect the camp.
Needless to say, our CO was relieved of duty and after a month long investigation, a permanent removal from command. Which is basically a career killer from officers.
So, yeah, willful negligence on the CO's part due to ignoring guidelines passed down from superior officers. So, no need for the quotations there.
@@forgerofsouls9126 I haven't served myself, but I can understand how bad that heat was. I worked outside for six years doing physical labor (loading merchandise into customer vehicles).
Once it was so bad a co-worker broke the sop of never having one guy in our outdoor area to send me inside due to six hours of summer heat exposure and how long it had been since I had any water.
To any manager reading this, ensure that you have sops that account for the heat and cold.
This. In Matt's video about the surcoat this has been my point, that the weather conditions they encounter is not only hot sunny weather. Both Matt and Shad missed the point why they were really used when they didn't think about the true weather conditions you get there.
You need to be on patrols at night in the cold maybe, sallying out of a city in the morning, encamping somewhere, standing on guard in a breeze or waiting for the battle to start, these were the first which came to my mind, where I'd like to have something to keep me warm.
ive always heard how in north africa they didnt wear mail because of the heat but then you look at the parthian cataphracts and they were covered head to toe in uncovered mail
A other reason they might’ve worn multiple layers might be to keep them selfs cooler because if you layer your clothes right you can isolate the inside of your clothes from the outside heat so even though it would seem counterproductive at first it might keep you cooler in the long run. LOVE your video’s shad! Keep up the good work!!!
This is exactly what deep desert dwellers do. Dress in many heavy dark layers in the cool, then rely on that insulation and lack of extra reflected light from light cloth to carry you through the day. Once you get somewhere cool, the dark clothes come off along with all of their stored heat making you instantly cooler. Light clothes would be cooler, but that means more energy being reflected onto the wearer, dark clothes absorb and hold the heat to themselves.
Selves*
"Holy Lands are hot." And apparently generic quest destinations by that tone, lol.
I doubt that my armor would actually verbally abuse me but it might get SCALDING hot if left in the sun. A classic eggcorn moment from Shad 😁.
Form hoo?
I sure hate it when my armor scolds me.
Warmest weather we Have had is +38celsius, coldest -51celsius 😂
I saw a video a long time ago that demonstrated a feature of the surcoat. They were made of heavy felt and felt was quite good at stopping arrows. The video showed how the felt was made and how the fabric was compressed when it was made. I future test video in the offing??
I was under the impression that mail was the best type of armor for hot environments
Ancient armors also dealt with heat in such ways. Bronze soaks up the sun's heat too, but painting over it with tars and pigments helped reduce that buildup of temperature. Such a neat idea that these peoples had to deal with the environment in creative ways.
I would like to note, whule white may reflect more light, black is more efficient at thermal cooling, ie wind blowing across you. So if its windy, you might stay cooler with loose fitting black, while white would benefit in less windy environments.
Black helps with radiating heat away. That's not the same as wind aka convective heat distribution as it's called. So black would help at night or anytime there's no direct sun to help radiate heat. White helps reflect heat under direct sunlight, and surface area is generally what helps with convective heat dissipation, like wind.
The reason for wearing darker fabric might be because that while it does just absorb heat faster than lighter fabric, it releases it faster as well. You'd see this sort of thing on some types of supersonic aircraft like the SR-71 Blackbird which could move up to Mach 3.5. It's painted black to help get rid of the massive amounts of heat generated from the friction at such high speeds.
For those of us who measure in bald eagles per freedom 52 is about 126 so
Yet another reason to never set foot in australia
@@Omnicortisol what you talking about that's fishing weather
Todd's Workshop made a video that consisted in shooting a chest plate with arrows.
The bare plate would deflect the arrow, when Todd put some kind of cloth coat on the plate the arrow stopped, it didn't fly off in a random direction.
wasn't a problem with mail though, arrows would stick in mail even if they didn't penetrate gambeson underneath. Actual accounts of battles during crusades mention knights fighting with multiple arrows sticking out of them.
Right round the other side of the world, the coldest I've been out in is minus 57 degrees Celsius. Creates whole new problems with armor I'd imagine, haha. No joke, when my dad was a kid in his small town, and they had get the fire wood, they would sit on their axe heads as they rode out to keep the metal just a weeeeeee bit warmer, since they would sometimes break otherwise if used to strike in extreme cold. Or, thats at least how the stories were told to me ;)
I've experienced that kind of temp back in the day. Corpus Christi Texas got to 109 F (42.7778 C) officially, but the humidity made it feel hotter. So I sympathize .
It's not just the poor ventilation of the helmet but the fact that your head is basically the great heat chimney of the body.
This is why putting on a beanie or a hat during a very cold day quite helps in making you feel warmer even if your arms and legs are more exposed.
We radiate tons of heat through our heads, so as soon as you insulate the head in some manner, the effect is very noticeable.
Likewise on a hot day, if you dip your head in a barrel of cold water it'll instantly help you to cool down compared to just sticking a hand or foot in cold water.
That's only true when you swim in really cold water with your head out of the water. This is how this fallacy started.
It's 1000W/m2 and high thermal density vs wind pressure, probably with a low deltaT.
Covering up the armor or painting bright colors definitely makes sense. Wasn't the purpose of the outfit though.
Thank you for another great, insightful video! This argument makes some very good sense!
When I go out with a non-insulated jacket I notice an interesting property of non-form fitting clothes have big openings, that is when wind blows on the opening the air tends to flow downward to escape. So, by wearing an overcoat without sleeves could have that same accidental benefit with the air flow going into the sides of the overcoat and escaping downwards, helping to cool down the rest of the body.
Look out, Shad! A Temple-mental knight!
I don't think absolutely everything done was for a functional purpose- it may have literally just been to more easily distinguish friend from foe or to simply be a sort of uniform.
Imagine your vision is reduced to about half an inch and everyone in the multiple thousand man melee is wearing indistinguishable silvery plate.
Seems like a great way to rack up your friendly fire score.
@@ArrakisHeir88 most combat was morale based. i would suspect the reluctance to fight at all would be more pervasive and, thus, friendly fire would be lower still.
but that would be hardly heroic.
@@ArrakisHeir88visors didn't obstruct vision as much as you think they would, though you're right about how it might be hard to see who's who
Surcoats had multiple practical functions. After spending years in the Nevada desert, I have learned every little bit of sunshade helps, and long sleeves are for the summer base layer to. White vs black is less important than the layers, wicking and creating that microclimate, just like cold weather. Another is identification. But they probably had embroidered bits that prove morale patches aren't new, and there would have been some bling. The "rule of cool" or "tacticool" has been with us since the beginning of mankind, it's just that cloth rots faster than steel rusts.
Oh for a time machine
I would also want to point out that if it is so hot that the condition of all that metal is so debilitating that you cannot stay in it and not faint/die to overheat.... well you just do not fight. There is no reason to go into a battle in those conditions (which affect both sides). It is like trying to stage a battle during a blizzard. One just does not do it instead of trying to come up with dubious tricks to slightly lower the temp of your armour.
Military operations don't stop for weather. If you can find a way to fight in 5 degree hotter Temps than your enemy, you go out. If his only choice is to just tank the heat and try to fight you, that's what he has to do.
the problem with that is acclimation and evolution. people that live in the Horn of Africa are skinny even when they move away to someplace else, as that means more surface area to radiate heat. this means that people local to an area can handle the weather better than foreigners, and this holds true for any extremes of climate. the only real caveat is locals that took the area and thus did not live there for hundreds of generations. so when you first get an area with harsh climate you need to acclimate in order to fight to full effectiveness, and even then you will not be able to handle quite the same level of extremes as long standing locals.
@@sheldoniusRex I just remembered a situation where one army refused to go to battle in the heat, while the other stood there the whole day in the scorching sun.
I don't remember the exact details, but it was a battle between a Turkish army and a Hungarian army. While the hungarians got ready for battle from the morning, the turkish army just sat at their camps chilling the whole day. When the weather became more bareable the turkish army finaly decided to attack the hungarian army and easily defeated them, due to the hungarians standing in the sun for the whole day, expecting an attack any moment.
jeebus on a pogo stick, you know nothing of warfare. you do not pick favourable weather unless that gives you opening. if you can use any advantage, you better do because it can save your life. if i can up my endurance and alacrity while leaving the enemy to suffer, i would. in melee, that split second stiffness from cold or hesitation from fatigue can make all the difference.
besides, most melee combat had low casualty rate as moral was the ultimate decider of victory in vast majority of conflicts.
A lot of customs traditional to hot climates we see as "lazy", like the Spanish Siesta, the Islamic custom of structuring most prayers throughout midday (prohibiting most hard labor and keeping people indoors) etc, the American South and having several afternoon meals and drinks, all come from surviving the heat and staying away from the hottest part of the day.
It is true that black colours absorb more heat than bright colours.
But at the end of the day, having your skin exposed to the sun will absorb a lot more heat compared go being swaddled up in a full black gear that helps you avoud exposure.
That's why middle eastern bedouin tribes made sure to cover up when travelling in the deserts, even if their clothing consisted of dark colours.
I've only just noticed that the blue on Shads kite shield is backwards from his logo and its white instead of black. Only noticed because he mentioned heraldry and it looked weird to me seeing the blue on his gambeson being the other way around from the shield and the black of the gambeson contrasting the white of the shield... Still looks sweet though.
Totally agree that heraldry had to have been a major reason for surcoats. Though I wonder if, in strong sun, you could get annoying reflections off your armor, or your neighbors'? (though that might be more of an issue from plate than from mail)? A surcoat, in addition to its major purpose of looking distinguished, would also seem to cut way down on any such reflections.
The Moors, Turks, Saracens etc. all wore mail to my knowledge did they get to hot?? think people should examine the broader context! great vid Shad
I thought he meant… inside the actual sun. And I was confused as to why that question needed a whole video.
52 degrees Celsius? 🤨
There's never been recorded 52 degrees in Australia before.
The record is 50.7 and in West Australia.
Surcoats? Identification.
"scolding hot": (adj.) a step up from "scalding hot" where the heat somehow literally reprimands you
I think we're missing another aspect of a surcoat. Shrapnel. Shad pointed out how some coats of padded and they would certainly help with absorbing some of the impact of weapon hits. But on a medieval battlefield you have to imagine there's a lot of arrows flying around. Those arrows are inevitably going to shatter when they hit heavy steel helmets and Shields and later breastplates. Those small wooden pieces would probably end up stuck in people. The circle would prevent you from getting a big old splinter in your chest. I also have to imagine it would help keep you warm. And while that may not seem like a big concern in the summer or in the Middle East.... It would make a difference when it rains. The same way armor heats up and gets hot I would imagine chainmail also gets pretty cold in the rain. Just because the knight travels from Europe to the holy Land doesn't mean he's going to adjust his wardrobe properly. We see in the age of exploration that like sailors who end up in Hawaii don't make smart clothing choices based on their new environment. They wear what they culturally would have worn in Portugal at the same time of the year. Then there is one final weather condition I'd like to bring up. And that's dust. Nobody likes to be covered in dust, nobody probably wants dust all over their chainmail armor cuz it's going to get grimy the next time it gets wet.... I understand surcoats aren't perfect protection from that, I understand it's probably not the biggest concern the world. But it's unpleasant and I'm sure medieval people didn't want to be grimy anymore than you and I want to spend two months grimy. It's unpleasant. A surcoat plus a cloak would be really great for keeping dust off you. One final minor points is it makes a pretty good pocket. Especially if you've got a belt sinched around your waist. Its like a good place to throw a book, some paperwork you might need or you're riding gloves for a few minutes well you stopped to eat or wash your hands or whatever.
You guys are Australian...that is sooooooooo cool. Glad to have people having a passion in history in my home country like me :)
One word: uniform.
Surcoat was a medieval football jersey.
😂 I was the swagga of that day
Convection dehydration. Bare skin in the desert is not something you wanna do, especially when it's very, very hot. The wind itself will sap the moisture from your body. Fabric helps stave that off.
Agreed, this is something that I learned years ago in the Marine Corps. Whenever we went on a forced march we'd always do with our sleeves down, even during the Srping and Summer when we would normally wear our cammies with the sleeves rolled up while in garrison. They always explained the logic to the sleeves being down because of the sun and because having the sleeves down would cause you to sweat and thus cool you down.
So, while surcoats might not have been wrong specifically for any potential cooling benefits, that doesn't mean that they didn't have any.
Thanks for the response @Shadiversity - and it gives me an idea for a response to the response. Stay tuned!
My pleasure mate and I can't wait to see your vid!
I still think heat prevention was a secondary benefit, and the sleeveless form actually supports this.
You move your arms around a lot more than your body, so there was more air cooling effect. Also you feel heated mail there a lot less than directly under your head.
So my hypothesis is someone (once they moved down into ever hotter lands, hotter than any land before they had experienced) in mail started wearing cloth above it to prevent it from getting searingly hot, others copied and then people thought "what a great place to put heraldry on!"
Whoa, this video appeared in my recommended! It's been ages since that's happened with a Shadiversity video! Maybe this means the algorithm likes you better now?
In Britain we dont have sun, we have clouds and rain 😂
It's important to state that it gets fairly cold at night in the desert, so black and layered clothes aren't that stupid at all
It can get well below freezing point in the desert at night. That's more than 'fairly cold'. Though yes, it depends on season and exact location.
@@kikixchannel of course, I think I made my point clear, but thanks anyway
Not even the desert. A simple trip to the beach and the temperature drops rapidly after sunset. The looks of people when I bring a simple hoodie to the beach for an afternoon swim.
@@anthonyoer4778 yeah, but that's because of the sea, not necessarily the desert. The hoodie is still important, though
(Gulfwar part 2 Veteran/Reenactor who fights in mail here) It is my understanding that most of the crusaders also had light weight linen or cotton cloaks to protect themselves from the direct sunlight when traveling or standing out in the sun. Also the adoption of desert scarfs to use as hoods when they were sans helmet. The middle eastern sun can heat iron and steel sufficiently that touching it without a glove can give you 1st-2nd degree burns. Going in and out of the shade is enough to protect you from serious overheating (mail cools quickly, but also heats up quickly) so the only real danger would have be the prolonged exposure in open desert. The kind you get on a forced march. There is Absolutely No Reason to suspect that they were too stupid to either doft their mail or cover it to avoid heat stroke. Soldiers of every era are rather interested in not dying, and figuring out ways to survive, usually by adopting elements of local protective dress.
Hey Shad, do you have any helpful tips for someone who’s looking to get a book/book series published? I’ve been undergoing a few struggles here and there with it and just wanted to know what you could just give off the top of your head. Also I loved the video and am happy to see more of your content even when things are hard.
9:20 There's a small heraldic error in Shad's shield. Tincture shall never touch tincture (read: colours, while yellow and white represent gold and silver). So the blue fields should have a silver line between the field and the red cross (think Union Jack) ... or ... you'd quarter the shield in red and blue and have a white (silver) cross dividing the sections.
Bro as soon as Schola was utterly dismissive about heat soak in metal, i was like welp! THis is someone who has clearly not worked with metals in hot weather before! I am an ironworker in florida. ten-thousand percent yes your chain mail would get completely heat soaked, hot to the touch in sun and ten thousand percent yes fabric covering will help it. It doesnt mean that it was the sole reason they wore surcoats, all im saying is it would absolutely be the way to go in the heat.
I always figured knights wore sour coats to represent the kingdom they come from like how football players have their uniforms made to represent their high school team unless their professionals in which case its their city instead.
Probably also to help with formation and organizing troops. Like those weird Napoleonic hats and color was said to help the general see and know about the troop postion so they can better give order to them.
Yeah, I always figured it was about having a convenient place to put heraldry and other identifying colors and patterns that is cheaper and easier to maintain than having to use painted armor or whatnot. Also, a bit of fashion.
"Kingdom" can be an exaggeration depending on the case. More like to represent the lord they served
@@MW_Asura that too
Not "sour coat".
Surcoat.
I wonder if they had a white paint you could coat the steel with back then, I'm not sure if whitewash can coat steel effectively.
A test you can do for black vs. white cloth is to put a thermometer in a box and put the cloth over it. Use two boxes of the same size with the same type of thermometer inside. You want the clothes to be of the same type and thread count, the only difference being one is white and the other black. Place the boxes on a table in the sun. Check after an hour.
You could also test different types of cloth of the same colors.
If you have ever worn a metal necklace in the sauna you know how hot it can get. Therefore I propose you make an experiment in a sauna as a desert simulator!
People forget about Spain. Spain is hot and semi-arid for the most part. If you could use european mail and armor in Spain, you could certainly use it in Syria.
I used to work outside and in the summer only like the last month of summer it has got up to 110, 109 and I live in the Rockies.
But the thing is with think clothes working outside is they protect you from the heat and they protect you from the cold. Sticker clothing holds the moisture against your skin keeping your core temp cooler, and keeps the cold from reaching your skin. Dark colors will make you hotter but they also dissipate heat faster once you do have shade.
Reminds me of Battle Of Grunwald where Teutons were forced to stand for a couple of hours in the summer sun, while Polish and Lithuanian forces were chilling in the forest.
Hi Shad, the content has been fun lately! I would love to see some content about weapon match-ups in combat. Not so much testing sword "x" vs. sword "y" but more like a sword vs. axe, spear, mace, flail, etc. Looking for evaluation between soldiers with comparable armor and time period. Obviously, not every foot soldier utilized the same weaponry, depending on what they were trained with or country of origin. Mainly, I'm curious if, given the option, a soldier using a certain weapon would say: "You know, maybe I don't fight that guy."
Well, at the very least I'm confident that a guy with just a dagger isn't going to want to fight anyone, and an archer without a side arm definitely won't want to fight anyone with a melee weapon at close range.
Beyond that, swords seem to struggle against polearms (especially one-handed swords) because it's hard to get close enough to deal damage without getting stabbed since polearms have a much longer reach
I think one thing we have to keep in mind is that art doesn’t necessarily reflect how things were regularly done. I can’t speak much about medieval life but I did serve in the US Navy and did several tours in Iraq. We had our dress uniform which we wore for watch and in the presence of the public but we also dress way down when performing everyday activities. The temperatures we used to deal with would be in the 100+ degrees (Fahrenheit). For perspective we use to swab the decks watch the water dry in just a few seconds (you could see the water vapor). I guess my point is that art and public photos tend to reflect an idealized perspective not necessarily how things actually were.
100⁰C+? That's 212⁰F+... I wasn't aware there was anywhere on Earth where the ambient temperature would literally boil water
Except, of course, natural vents, lava tubes, etc
@@treejerk1 i corrected it
When it got hot, both sides stayed in their castles.
"Thou can standeth under mine umbrella"
~popular bard song of those days about a maiden offering some shade to a knight cooking in his armor
I did a test yesterday in the Virginia (USA) heat and humidity. Sunny. Low 90s (°F). I wore my long (chainmail) hauberk over a t-shirt. I did not wear a gambeson because I have not acclimatized myself to winter clothing in the summer. The hauberk was only a little warm. I did my chores in it. It was not bad at all. I was surprized. I wore my nasal helm. It was not hotter than a modern helmet. I raced cars and a closed face helmet is murder until you get going. I wore my plate armor cuirass in the second test, same conditions. It was warmer but not too hot to the touch. I sweated a lot more. A lot. In both tests I later wore a surcoat. With the hauberk there was a marked decrease in temperature. A tad warm but noticably cooler. Not bad. With the cuirass it did cool some and I stopped sweating so bad. Sweated some. Still warmer than with the hauberk. Good posture is highly recommended! When I set both sets of armor in the sun on a lawn chair they became way too hot to touch. More so with the plate armor. Ow! I would say you absorb more heat in plate armor than in chain mail.
Possibly the surcoat served to help reduce the amount of cleaning the armour would require at the end of the day. I spent time in Afghanistan and the dust gets into everything. Add a little bit of water from sweat or spilled drinks (water, wine, etc), and that dust starts to act like a glue, then cement once dried. Just a thought.
Also, that was where I had the hottest day I had every experienced, 54 degrees celsius.
great video
:) Great Video guys.
Not watch the full video, but i will drop my theory in advance
2 things
Drip
Confuse the enemy by hiding the weak spot of the armor and the legs movements
I used to work under the Phoenix sun all day. Counterintuitive as it seems, covering up, especially with multiple layers of lightweight, breathable wicking dark fabric is the way to go. You want to catch all the light away from your body. Reflecting is alright, but that means you're also reflecting radiation back into your body. The higher the delta on the surface, the faster the cooling, so you want the outer layer to absorb as much radiant heat as possible, both from the sun and the body. The vapor leaving does double duty, first the evaporative cooling, then carrying away heat as it passes through the hot outer layer.
Steal reflects very little light, most of it soaks in as heat, quickly conducted away from the surface and to the body. So yes, covering it with fabric will reduce a lot of the heat from sunlight. The sleeves it makes sense to leave open. They are much looser with more surface, so they have better cooling. Keeping them open allows more exhaust allowing heat to leave your body. But I imagine on an especially hot day with sun at the wrong angle, you'd probably want to drape something over.
52 is cold…in America lol. Seriously though, this is one topic I have been extremely curious about.
I always think its funny when in video game the character walks through Deserts while in Armor.
It might be interesting to note, that Turkish, Persian and other islamic warriors of the time wore padded coats on top of their mail rather than beneath it as it was common in the West. This might on one hand cover the metal from the sun and dust and on the other take advantage of the "breathable" mail because it's easier (and safer) to unbuckle a coat and air out than take off the mail and the gambeson to cool down only to scramble to put it back on when danger looms.
Great fun this vid!
109F / 44C today in sunny Tucson AZ
Ain't doing any backyard cutting
..😂
I think touching the hot chainmail is like touching a car window thats been sitting outside a little bit
I love your castle background
Layering clothes in desert/warm climates is definitely a thing, so I think surcoats could very well have performed a heat management role
btw, for sunburn, BLACK TEA! make a super strong pot of tea, dip a dish towel in it, & lay the towel soak with black tea on the sun burned skin, will take the pain away in seconds, works better than any spray!
I've seen people sleep on a screened in porch (mosquitoes & not to stain the flooring, bedding etc.) with a black tea soaked beach towel laid over their back & legs b/c they fell asleep on the beach.
I was searching for so long the idea of a gambeson or a thick enough cloth armor to be put over the mail
(Probably bit thicker than a Jupon, tabart or surcoat)
The padding to be over the mail
And a much much thinner underneath just to avoid clipping the skin
The order in which Shadie has wore his armors sure get my hopes up
(The only thing I had found till now describing such an armour wearing order was a small passage from some Burgundian ordinances if I refer to that correctly)
Very much thank you
Tod's Workshop just released an affordable Falchion in his Tod Cutler line. A 14th Century Clip Point Falchion, amongst others.
IIRC one of the earliest examples of wide-spread surcoat use would be the monastic military orders. In those situations, I suspect that in addition to the obvious religious goal of wearing the cross openly, it also served to help the knights and armsmen of those orders to fight together as a unit. They were generally famous for being the most disciplined Latin military formations of the time, and I imagine that surcoats would have played a significant role in that. Even before the establishment of those orders, though, the crusaders literally "took the cross" by having a cross displayed somewhere on their kit, which over time may well have contributed to a more formalized cultural use of heraldry (with surcoats being a convenient mechanism).
I always thought surcoats were like Jerseys, showing the "team" you are "playing" for.
Almost thought two videos were released in span of one hour. But instead, tile and thumbnail got changed to be more click baity.
We need to experiment with different thumbnails and titles all the time, especially when the video isn't getting good views
You don't need padding underneath the mail to stop it from chafing but you absolutely need it to give you protection...
Shad should get those chainmail sleeves tailored to be close fitting. They should never be loose
Yeah, just bring those to texas it was 41 degrees today... and I can't imagine wearing metal. Because my flak and Kevlar gets hot within 20 minutes in the sun.
I would assume the whole purpose of a surcoat is to identify friendly forces in the maelstrom of close combat. Same reason why redcoats wore red coats, in the smoke of vollyshots.
Also I have learned something from my time in the middle east, wearing multiple thin layers protects you from the sun, makes you sweat which helps cool you as long as the multiple layers are thin enough to allow air to pass through.
I belive the best method for a night would be several thin layers, the chain mail with the padded layer under with a light surcoat of your troop colors ontop.
To me the Sur-Coat is for identification. Both sides would have chain mail. And to keep from "Friendly slashing" you know to not hit the guy in the same outfit as you. And In the art in the middle east fights look and they had cloaks on a lot of the time traveling, This would keep the metal covered without sealing in the heat with sleeves and such. Great video as always guys, and loving having more people to be on the videos with shad to help bounce ideas and discuss the topics without just having to try and roll it all yourself. Much loves from my family to your guy's and HAIL!
It is also important to mention that, in medieval times, there was not really a simple way to prepare for battle in a different climate... unless you actually traveled to a country in a similar latitude (a journey that might take months). So I imagine many young men, anxious to gain "honor" in battle, just went with what they normally used in their countries... and got rid of several layers as they went.
You'd still need extra layers...the desert gets cold at night and very rapidly.
you didn't discard crap like that in medieval times. there was no cheap clothes store in the next pox ridden village over. you had to haggle, be warry of local bandits, bugs and parasites, alergic rashes from unknown foreign plants used in manufacturing process of the fabric... if it can be used, it can be carried. if you can't carry it, it is useless.
They did it for the drip. Heat is temporary, dying in glorious combat with the latest drip is forever.
Recognition of enemy and teammates
Interesting topic.
Especially the part about male on the arm.
When I think about my dog-tag, in a 65°c Afghanistan, was good to wear on the skin. When we took it off, it became hot as hell. Is it not, that when you wear it on the skin, the metal has a way to redirect the heat to the human underneath. When you keep a layer between, it could Heat up more.
Maybe a thing to check out.
I've worn maille in the heat all day in the hot sun and I found it to cool more than anything sort of like a heatsink, once wind hits it and you're out of the sun and it's against your skin it's pretty nice. that's with a very light tunic, since Vikings didn't wear gambeson.
Fun fact I had to spray my home for fleas for a month straight to kill them all, & one day I had the bright idea to wear trash bags on my legs under my jeans, turns out if you keep trash bags on your legs for two days straight, you literally can boil your legs without noticing, a third day later after a hot shower I had solid red legs & peeling sun burn like skin over the next month, no permanent damage but ouch. So airflow is key when wearing anything in the summer months.
Surcoats don't have sleeves? That's the OG "Suns out guns out."
Many (including Matt, Tod, y'all) have made the point that even professional fighting men generally spent the bulk of their time NOT FIGHTING. I wonder if that's less true for actual crusaders, but I can't imagine they were fighting even 50% of the time as crusaders.
Therefore, I often look for a non-combat reason for un-answered questions. It could have been as simple as knowing what unit someone is a part of, like an early concept of a uniform.
I live in Arizona, USA. It was 113F / 45C today, and this isn’t a particularly hot day (we see 50C / 122F on the airport tarmac every year), and I’ve been in 55C / 131F (locally due to heat island effect - asphalt melts and damages aircraft tires at that heat), so you have context for my comments.
At extremely hot temperatures covering your skin becomes the most important aspect, which is why many cultures in the Middle East wear full coverage and often black clothing because it protects from the sun. In a modern context: I rode my motorcycle today, and wore denim pants and short sleeved shirt. At a few more degrees (or if I was going a long way) I’d be wearing long sleeves too. A few more above that and I’d be wearing my cold weather gear again, as I’d need protection from the hot wind (that means 100% heavy leather with an insulation liner), but with all of the vents open so I get a little bit of convection “cooling” (sweat evaporation) but benefit from direct protection from the sun.
We have better materials now than then, but if I were limited to crusade-era technology I’d wear a linen coat on top of all my armor, then the armor beneath, and wear either wool (1st choice), linen (2nd choice), or arming doublet (only if combat is expected) as I’d prioritize keeping my cognition in the extreme heat over peak protection unless I was actively expecting to need it. If I had the equipment for it, I’d ride in mail and keep the plate off for the same reason, precisely because metal is such a great conductor it will bring the heat right through if it’s exposed to the air (and worse, the sun).
As an aside, this is pretty close to what I’d wear in cold weather, though I’d have a few more insulation layers there. When you live in extreme heat you learn that really hot and really cold are actually quite similar, and it’s the nuances that matter not the basic strategy.
It probably didn't get as hot back then, because medieval ages were cooler.
Several years ago in Moscow in Saint George's tournament there were reenactors from Palestine in local crusade-era army and they were scorching hot after their demonstration at +30 C / 86 F.
Well, about color theory.
That's a topic that I actually can talk about, since I was multiple times in egypt and have made the odd choice to decide that black is my color. I wear black clothes since I was 15ish and now with my 33 years I haven't changed that. I am very stubborn when it comes to that. You know something like "being consequent is going the road till the end, even if it ends in a wall" stubborn when it comes to cloth color.
So we are going to egypt and I really started to reconsider my life choices. But then I read about the Tuareg. They cover themselves up with clothes surprisingly often even in dark colors.
I mean my options were limited anyway since all of my clothes were black at that point in my life anyway (and I hate shopping new clothes).
So I read further and the whole trick for extreme sun induced heat is put on puffy layers. The main target is to avoid sun touching your skin directly or the cloth directly on the skin. There should be a cover layer to block the sun, that layer will get annoyingly warm, than beneath that a nice breathable layer wich keeps the hot layer away but doesn't block the wind.
So since I don't wanted to run around like a mummy I came up with the following for me in those circumstances,
A wide hat with good ventilation, a tshirt and wide trousers. As my blocking layer I used a cotton shirt wich I let open for wind despite looking like being cracy for wearing heavy black clothing, it was surprisingly manageable.
And I didn't got sunburned wich is quite a feat for a german xD. (most of us get burned so ludicrously fast it is annoying)
So yeah, that dude in armor with black color stuff that is very doable, and after a while the color makes not that much of a difference. Black warms up faster but just wait for some time and the other colors will catch up eventually.
Oh and Plate armor and gambeson works very nice too, as long as you have enough to drink.
The Islamic armies wore mail. In the middle east.
So.... It must have been fine.
Same in parts of Africa but that was usually horsemen.
The thought of being in all that gear in the heat makes me feel miserable. I'm so thankful for living in a different time lol