as a solo dev thats kind of how I view it unironically, but also my only reason to live is making games. I dont really view it as a career moreso I was put on this planet to do it, so it being the sole reason I don't do other things like making friends or exercising etc isn't crazy to me.
It feels bad that my goal to make a video game is “go to college and get a degree in another field, have a stable job that pays me enough to not have to work myself to the bone and then, years later, work on games as a side hobby”
if you want it to be a side hobby, then start now!, learning bit by bit and do stuff in your free time, on your own pace, is way better long-term rather than waiting to start to the ideal condition
The hobby time with a fresh idea is the sweetest it'll ever be. When a project scales up it turns into a different beast and it's trying no matter what. Making games as a hobby is really the most satisfying overall because you can commit to a process you enjoy. Enjoy it, you'll be surprised how much you'll miss it if you do make something that takes off elsewhere or end up working professionally.
Even being an indie can be rough if making games is your sole source of income. Sometimes you end up in a weird spiral of making other games in order to have enough money to make the game you actually want to make.
@callsignapollo_ probably why he said ad a hobby. If you're game blows up than HOORAY! Career Goals! If not, then it's a learning experience. Scott Cawthon made like 10 other games b4 blowing up with FNAF
@ninjahedgehog5 FNAF was also his last game effort before giving up entirely. If it hadnt blown up, he wouldve quit making games and gone back to some other day job, because he was out of the cash he had saved up to make games as a full-time thing. Which, ironically, was exactly the kind of situation i was referring to
Oh, so you need to tell me a creative industry is really unstable and stressful? That it can leave you empty and unfulfilled, while working for a soulless corporation that monetizes your passion, while the other option is independent madness? Well I guess it’s time to look into my other passion - animation…hey wait a minute!
My abhorrence of the tasks on the things that I love where I can easily waver and give up even going past the brainstorm stage. My respect and condolences for people working both of these industries. You all are lunatics. lol
Literally two of my three (3) housemates went to school for game design (1) and video game programming (2), got into Microsoft QA for big AAA titles and after 3 years burnt out and never wanna work in games ever again. The two now work for Bad Dragon making adult toys and are very happy and making so much more money. Meanwhile I went to school for art and got into game industry and have been in here for 6 years just fine thank fully. Lots of great facts and advice in this episode.
I’m close friends with a few ppl who worked in the games industry but had to pivot to other jobs just because it’s not mentally or financially stable. It’s terrible that schools are even offering game design degrees and programs at all; they’re massive scams and not everyone who gets one will be lucky enough to be able to get work elsewhere and pay off their student debt.
Have any advise for fellow artists getting into the game industry? I'm focusing on concept art right now, but I'm well versed enough to do other illustration work as well as some 3D.
Turning 18 and wanting to become a musician in the climate of the current creator economy kinda feels like being recruited to war while the front lines are retreating. Very fun feeling
Doesn't help with the number of "I post music to my Spotify and I'm waiting for it to gain traction, and by music I mean AI generated beats" accounts I've seen in various comment sections.
I also post music under this account and it's just as doom and gloom as the games industry. Exept with us it's all about getting people to actually give a shit with our increasingly shrinking attention spans
That's gonna be rough if you rely solely on competing on those platforms. My advice is to link up with indie devs (indie devs are aaaalways looking for people to make music) and build some experience and a portfolio doing that while you keep posting on your own social media accounts. Since it's tough to rely solely on your own marketing, use the connections you gain working with people to boost your presence that way. Once people know who you are, it's much easier to build an audience.
If it makes you feel any better, I'm in my 50s, a professional musician and sound designer, and I can tell you that being a musician has always been a nightmare. Since I started in the 90s. In fact in certain ways it is much easier to do your thing these days.
10:25 Stardew Valley was made entirely by one person over the course of 5 years. However, Eric Barone had a TON of time and money, and had a very.. unhealthy work ethic.
@@fearingalma1550 Yep. Stardew Valley is a masterpiece and ended up being wildly successful, but I cannot deny that that is a HUGE red flag. She must have really believed in the project.
Dude was pulling like 12 hours 7/0 on the most scuffed setup imaginable, AND had a part-time job to not be a complete leech on his saint of a girlfriend. You'd have to be really unwell to know the history of Stardew Valley and somehow think it's aspirational - it selling as much as it did and ConcernedApe not having a stroke was a once-in-a-century fluke.
This episode reminds me of one of the first animation gigs I ever had when I was hired as one of two people to animate entire scenes in a week for a 15 minute animated short, In full animation, and the guy in charge was not an animator, and would have us redo shit constantly. If i could like, time travel, I'd skedaddle, but there’s so much ego as a young artist invested in proving yourself despite not having the experience you need. Good episode.
Oh boy the stories industry insiders have. on specifically WHY AAA games turn out the way they do. Yes, many devs know how the game is going to be received poorly when they work on it
Glad this was the first Final V3 I've listened to. I'm a recent graduate in games (3D artist) and man, I'm really just trying to figure out what best career to pivot to right now. Not saying I'll never want to work in games, I just want a job right now that will actually let me in, and won't kill me for doing so. Lots of good info and advice in this one, I'm still struggling with guilt and inadequacy with having a degree in something that I'm not able to get a job in, so it helped to hear that it's actually good to have a "day job" and work on personal projects, until it might lead into you finding a slot in the industry to fit in.
making this kind of pivot right now after getting laid off from my first (pretty lengthy) gig - different situation but I feel it's helped to think of my skills as a trade. something I've learned and continue to develop in my own time because I have a passion for it, but am not solely reliant on it to pay rent. and so accepting that I will need to find a day job comes with the freedom that I DON'T have to sell this skill. I can demand better from a potential employer because I'm fine to fuck off to a job I can just do and leave at work and work on my own passion projects outside of that. personally, pivoting to personal training turned out to be a two-fer solution for paying rent as well as managing my disability, with a relatively low barrier of entry. but that barrier of entry still exists and is inherently unfair because pivoting takes time and money that we as a society just don't provide, especially to recent graduates. but if there's any certification or training you can access that might get your foot in the door in something that will pay the bills, it seems like that might actually be the best way to access the games industry - by not needing it to survive. regardless, good luck, and I hope this doesn't spoil the passion for games that brought you here in the first place. that and your skills are still valuable, regardless of the industry's bullshit right now.
exactly it's every part of the entertainment industry. i used to see it with background actors who spend tons of money on their own wardrobes to get a chance at fame and a $60 pay check. society thinks people who work in entertainment don't deserve respect. i know because i've been an entertainer since i was a toddler.
Ughh. The myth of the solo dev. I hate how it's not real but how it's simultaneously a beacon of hope for those of us who can't put a team together. It's scary to work with other devs, strangers, when you're just trying to make what you want. Friends can't always be there, since they are probably in the same boat. Why should I work on stuff I don't really care about if I have a full time job and other responsibilities? The answer is that it's probably better to not work on what you really care about. Instead grind away helping others to get skills ans connections. Only probablem is how much patience and endurance that takes. None of this is intuitive and is also very stressful.
I literally got into research on climate change by sending personal emails at random labs and researchers groups that I have an Erasmus internship and I like their work, thus would you please let me in. Ended up in the Nordics (which is huge for the subject and also for an undergraduate) and then I started working there like crazy, tried to involve myself with the group as a researcher instead of an intern and even though they had no job to offer me they did all they could to network me into a position. Literally just by bothering random strangers.
I was talking to a singer of a Christian rock band a couple of years back (long story) and the one major piece of advice he gave (for starting a band specifically, but I feel like this applies everywhere) was to get a group of like-minded people to work with, people you can vibe with creatively. Basically he told me to make friends if I want to make it in the entertainment industry. An impossible task.
@@mzov_1724 or, alternatively, it implies viewers realize a fundamental truth about the podcast that makes them completely uninterested in listening any further
1:12:55 RJ should work for Sonic Team. Every single linear level in the last few Sonic games has had a unique music track. Sonic Frontiers and Forces had about 30 linear stages each and most of them were a minute long to play but each had two minutes of original music, and then there's boss fights, incidental music like menu screens, and in Frontiers the entire other half of the game, the open-world gameplay, with many tracks per map there too. The FREE DLC for that game has its own OST with 46 more tracks. It's actually ridiculous how nobody at Sega has ever made the entirely reasonable suggestion to cut costs at Sonic Team by comissioning less than 110+ tracks for each game's OST. It's unbelievable that almost all of that output slaps.
no bullshit me being a born and bred sonic fan from go (my parents' wedding gift to one another was a sega genesis with sonic 1) and playing sonic cd and sonic 3 back to back at a hugely impressionable age probably has a fuckload to do with this
What you are describing is the tech world environment that I have been working in for the last 8 years. You can't keep a job because no employer is loyal to their employees AND there are definitely companies that made you less employable than no experience. I think times are changing to a no great time.
Less employable can happen? Is this sort of like tech where if you have FAANG experience a few smaller companies think you would be too ambitious? Or is it more like most companies don't want to hire from sweatshops?
@@parus8798 in a previous episode, they mentioned some studios have such notoriously bad practices that when people move to other studios, they have to take the time to unlearn those bad habits in order to not destroy the workflow of the team. Not to mention awful company culture *cough actiblizz cough* causing interpersonal conflicts at times
in general I've treated it like how it was suggested in the video. Couldn't get into the games industry initially after college, so joined volunteer projects to work with other people. Poached one of the members who knew programming that I jived with the most in that, and have been doing our first project together in our own time outside of our full time jobs. In-between I've tackled working with different volunteer teams for game jams, working in solar/fabrication, and now about to start a job working as a print tech to potentially climb a corporate ladder in my hometown. Right now for the most part I've been trying and talking to people online who like solving games as a problem, and hanging out with people just in general to how I was in high school. Still stressed as fuck, never able to feel like having enough time to do the things I want, but I'm able to survive and at least have something to show for myself.
First time listener here. Really enjoyed this episode! As someone outside the games industry but still working in big tech, a lot of this sounds familiar, especially the "be careful of people with big ideas and no plans of how to execute them". This is crazy common in big tech corps. I've worked almost 10 years now in the industry and I feel like I've spent almost half of that time working on random "ideas" instead of projects with plans. And, of course, those are ALWAYS the worst projects. They tend to transform into projects where developers are expected to make every decision as a community, and eventually the "idea" turns into just a hodge-podge of features that don't go well together at all. Whacko stuff. Thanks for the reassurance that this is common and I'm not crazy lol.
I've been pretty lucky to have had a lucrative career in the games industry as an engineer/programmer. I put this down to several things: Entering the industry much older on average - I spent my 20s working in labor/construction and temp/contract office work, and concentrated on music and skateboarding in my spare time. Towards my late 20s I wanted to get a real career and I realized I *enjoyed* solving complex problems, building things and learning how computer and video game hardware worked, I also realized programmers could charge good money with experience. So I started watching Stanford comp sci lectures on youtube and learning c/c++ and comp sci. I read loads of blogs and ordered books online. I became somewhat of a hermit after work but within two years I took myself to Japan, worked teaching English and got an admittedly underpaid job in games but the experience was worth it - I was able to negotiate pretty good salaries and packages later on. I learned about the wide world of work, people, who I did want to work with and not want to work with, how to look for red flags during interviews, developing a distrust of certain types of people and how to identify them, what I actually enjoyed doing for work and didn't, the reality of rent and bills, looking for room mates etc. I didn't come in to the industry straight out of school, naive and not knowing anything about the big wide world. It's more brutal now so many might not have the luxury to be young anymore nor be able to network in real-world spaces not online so I realise how incredibly lucky I was.
I love hearing 1:12:55 the two completely opposite reactions to someone confidently saying they doubled their workload for a game because of an incredibly petty personal preference. Kino.
You have no idea how convenient this video was to me. I'm a self taught animator and artist. A lot of my work has gone viral and was recognized by corporations, influencers, podcasters, a lot of my pieces went viral. I'm currently making a manga, documentary, and video game all on my own. They all take place in the same universe so I'm sharing a lot of assets. Learning BLENDER (3d software) helps A LOT. Also, I don't use AI. it's rough out there man, I tell ya. But I still fight for my dreams.
This is nice to hear for as dreadful as it was in the beginning of college, and can be currently nearly 2 months before the “finishline” (or 40 miles behind another starting line who knows) Perhaps my fear is that I have been watching all these game dev talks and taking all these drawing courses and books and lectures etc. and all fueled towards gaming, animation, comic books and graphic novels because that’s what fueled me as a kid with their life lessons and magical story telling. To think outside that box while adapting using those very tools you’ve been honing is scary because it feels like walking without a beaten path. But the alternative has a plethora of people saying how terrible the pay, hours, and abuse is. Both are scary, but I can’t tell the future. I can only listen to myself, my peers, and people within these industries and try and make the best decisions in between. So again thank you for the incite
I'm glad i'm doing gamedev as a hobby. Maybe one day i'll get to do gamedev fulltime, but i'm not sacrificing my idealism or my worklife balance to do it.
Try not think of your skills for one thing but all make a UA-cam channel or some and make what concept art weapons etc would work well in new popular games, or characters etc I learnt slowly we all try to feed from the highest thing of the time
Depends on quality of art and animation. High level art 20 frames per second for 1 minute that potentially 1,200 unique frames. If you're not producing low detail art. You should charge more. $150 can't hurt.😏
Even 200 bucks for a whole minute of decent quality animation sounds pretty cheap. Am I crazy? if you live in the US (or any other reasonably developed country), you're probably better off flipping burgers if you're going to charge that low.
A friend of mine got a job at a pretty up and coming developer. When the team was small, they had him work on plenty of projects, but once they started to get big, they shoved him to the sidelines in favor of hiring people who have worked on triple-A games, purely because they worked on big games. Shit sucks, man
My favorite podcast to listen to, and hear the noises in my ears while I play the podcast with my phone with my earbuds in my ears, hearing the noises.. in my ears.
Thanks for reminding me of the game I drew stuff for almost a decade ago, whose main developer vanished off of twitter at the start of the pandemic [but not before slagging off his previous composer for spurious reasons]. Half the reason I don't do revenue share is because of that guy.
It shows that you're truly passionate and you want to defy all odds, proving an evil world wrong. It won't be easy, but with the proper discipline, you can make this a reality.
Sad thing is, the PRIZE for WINNING that battle is just more salt mines and disposability. Forget onboarding to a company. Just find your team/friends and plop out some hot fun garbage and see what happens. TIGSource in the 2010s was this place. I loved it.
I've been through the ringer as well (in animation) Going all in with a startup studio claiming to want to change the anime industry only to **literally** no hyperbole become what it was trying to avoid and fix. Became embroiled in another startup where the guy I was relying on ended up being a total grifter. Lied about having a terminal illness (with stolen valor) to extort money and delay payments with OVER a quarter million dollar of debt to other people he did business with, unpaid wages multiple people both workers and clients screwed over and life savings destroyed. I got word from a friend of mines who is doing work with a startup studio where I am hearing about an insulting working rate that is worse than McDonalds, obviously they are pushing for faster turnarounds so people don't steamroll hours on the project but its just absolutely insane regardless. Its hard to be an artist out there, you either get no money or some money, maybe even come across a lot of money every now and then.. I feel like my bar of compensation has risen but if I don't have income for long enough the bar gets lower until something comes by to raise it again, rinse repeat.
I'm currently in my 3rd year in a game programming course, and from my (limited) view it's kind of an impossible choice with the games industry when you really enjoy making games. Working with other talented people to make something cool is an intoxicating experience, with all the agile processes, difficulties and inevitable crunch feeling worth it for what you get to make. Obviously this is something of a safety net, where students get to play the part of product owners and scrum masters alongside their discipline-specific game work - my experiences do not include being under the boot of some corporate bigwigs. Even so, I can't imagine leaving behind the mess of game development, even if it was rife with crunch and difficulty. It's just too fun. Maybe that's a bright-eyed opinion that will fade when I actually enter the industry. Other than taking the risky plunge into an indie studio startup as a graduate, I just don't see any other way.
Sam here - yeahhhh, I def get where you're coming from. Intoxicating is a great word for it. I think a lot of the key here comes down to agency. In the crudest terms, f-cking yourself over for a higher goal, eyes wide open, putting that brick on the gas pedal and leaning in, with a stake whatever happens on the other side - however unhealthy - can be absolutely exhilarating. Being f-cked over, while poorly compensated, by a bunch of people who cut your brakes (and own your car), _without the upside_, can be terrifying. (There's a spectrum, but these are the ends.) So if we wanna push the field forward, and give players new experiences that deserve to exist- we gotta do the work of carving human spaces out of this mechanical industry. (As Dan mentioned, in a different environment, those devs went on to make Alien Isolation!) Be ambitious and kind, and _look out for each other_. Eyes wide open!
Oh god I needed to hear this talk years ago, I wanted to be a game dev for the longest time and worked on my own game 5+ years and saw nothing come from it. I can't tell you how depressing it is to suffer that alone, so much effort gets overlooked and unappreciated for nothing what a miserable time that was. Don't do everything on your own, find people! Host events use your local library or contribute online. Stay the f away from solo dev.
I started software consulting about 15 years ago. I've always gotten the sense when talking to game devs that I'm not a "real" dev because I make 31 flavors of CRM ad nauseam. My job is the opposite of glamorous or interesting, to be fair. I make NES and GBC games for fun and don't have a mortgage.
This has the same vibes of a support therapy group. Very enjoyable though. Anyway you probably already know this but in this industry, functionally the same dynamics happen even in foreign countries almost bit by bit...
rare youtube algo quality content pull lmao. now i got some things to think about, at crossroads about giving up trying for games and switching to something meta instead
You guys always manage to say something ridiculously profound about creativity and i both love you for it and despise the fact that YOU came up with that insight and I, also a creative person, didn't
Watching this in my last semester after a 4 year game design course. I've completely fucked my future already, may as well see how fucked I am in this video.
Hi, anime animator here, you have no idea how true hearing about how anime work gets exploited on the daily if it wasn't for the worker shortage so they would get in contact with people overseas
omg julianoodle i love this goddamn podcast so much dont ever stop and more importantly dont ever get burnt out or tired of it because its so perfect also "Dont ever be like 'i can do this in a week' its so unhealthy" *cut to sexfm flashbacks*
BTW thanks for making this podcast. I dont know who any of you are but ive been listening since the first episode and its been great! Love to hear a podcast about game development!
In college for game dev, and I'm kinda wondering what the hell I wanna do afterwards. I definitely don't want to get into AAA development (I decided that even before watching this video), and I definitely don't have the funds (nor courage) to open my own studio. No funds is also why I'm waiting 'til the tail-end of my current project to get assistance with things I straight up cannot do (translations and voice sfx).
Yeah that’s kinda where I’m at, a lot of the indie companies like New Blood and Night Dive want people with 5 years of industry experience too, it’s tricky to navigate
Every time I see a video like this it actually has some weird opposite effect. Like a chinese finger trap. E: Ahh shit 43:20 I have other interests too though.
trying to get into the gaming industry. I went into the marines exactly because they said "too hard don't do it" goal is to be a game designer. I don't need money from anyone, just word of mouth. and connections. I wont use you but I will ask a lot of questions if u have the time to be bothered. i don't like working with people, really hate that no one is reliable. but I will take your guys advice and expand myself and look for those that are into the projects I want to make and hopefully they get pulled towards it and help cause I am broke lol thank you for the podcast
ever since i finished homestuck i have yet to consume a piece of media that at some point does not have a homestuck reference and i am distraught at this
Not only should you not not enter any creative industry you should not even do it as a hobby, in fact if you know anyone doing either STOP THEM DONT LET THEM EVEN IF YOU DONT KNOW THEM
really love these podcasts and the sorts of topics/insights u get into was wondering whether you guys have considered adding discord like pfps that light up depending on whos talking with guests
Also Cave Story was like his 5th or so game, all of his previous games were simpler and smaller - like GUXT, or all the preview versions of Kero Blaster.
9:00 but cruelty squad villie kallio did exactly this. several intensely good indie games were made solo. just never say never i mean you have to be crazy in the first place to even get in there
I'm glad that I only dev games for fun, solo. I almost dread the idea of one of my projects taking off, then I'd have to live up to that lightning in a bottle. I hope to maybe make enough from my passion projects to buy a few pizzas, lol. (To be fair, I'd make games for free, but I feel like not charging anything would devalue the games in the eyes of the players). Definitely sad that it's so hard for people to make a stable living doing what they love, though. Much respect to all you guys!
thank u for the cathartic rant abt the entertainment industry i've been feeling like im going insane (in what feels like) watching that ship go down before some other configuration of en masse labor abuse takes form
*hears about the UK bit on "internalized processes" when I moved to this country, studied here and wanted to make it into the games industry* *Anxiety washes over them*
Did you know that if you do not eat and you do not drink and you do not move and you do not breathe, it would give more time for game development
if you pay your developers less it gives you more budget for game development :D
if you do not leave the office and dont have any personal possessions or housing to worry about, it will give more time for game development :3
If you were raised on nothing but a computer and disregarded any social obligations and hygiene, you would have more time for game development
as a solo dev thats kind of how I view it unironically, but also my only reason to live is making games. I dont really view it as a career moreso I was put on this planet to do it, so it being the sole reason I don't do other things like making friends or exercising etc isn't crazy to me.
Every 60 seconds a minute passes in Africa
It feels bad that my goal to make a video game is “go to college and get a degree in another field, have a stable job that pays me enough to not have to work myself to the bone and then, years later, work on games as a side hobby”
You don't have to wait years to start making games, you just might have to work on smaller, simpler games that don't take a lot of time.
This is my plan exactly. Unless the game industry magically becomes a great place to work in the next few years
if you want it to be a side hobby, then start now!, learning bit by bit and do stuff in your free time, on your own pace, is way better long-term rather than waiting to start to the ideal condition
@@code_Bread This is smart. Very adult. Program business software by day, use those skills to be a failed gamedev at night. Welcome to the club.
The hobby time with a fresh idea is the sweetest it'll ever be. When a project scales up it turns into a different beast and it's trying no matter what. Making games as a hobby is really the most satisfying overall because you can commit to a process you enjoy. Enjoy it, you'll be surprised how much you'll miss it if you do make something that takes off elsewhere or end up working professionally.
Do not enter the games "industry", but do make games as a hobby. It's pretty fun once you take "investors" and "executives" out of the equation.
Even being an indie can be rough if making games is your sole source of income. Sometimes you end up in a weird spiral of making other games in order to have enough money to make the game you actually want to make.
@callsignapollo_ probably why he said ad a hobby. If you're game blows up than HOORAY! Career Goals! If not, then it's a learning experience. Scott Cawthon made like 10 other games b4 blowing up with FNAF
@ninjahedgehog5 FNAF was also his last game effort before giving up entirely. If it hadnt blown up, he wouldve quit making games and gone back to some other day job, because he was out of the cash he had saved up to make games as a full-time thing. Which, ironically, was exactly the kind of situation i was referring to
@@callsignapollo_ Then don't make it your sole source of income. Art can come from anywhere.
@@ninjahedgehog5it was much, much more than 10 lmao
Oh, so you need to tell me a creative industry is really unstable and stressful? That it can leave you empty and unfulfilled, while working for a soulless corporation that monetizes your passion, while the other option is independent madness? Well I guess it’s time to look into my other passion - animation…hey wait a minute!
3d animation is pretty stable, I think. Issue is that there is a lot of mega talented animators and not enough jobs for them, outside of Japan.
@@Igorooooleynikov AI coming for those jobs in 3D and I hear even now 3D industry jobs have poor work life balance and very competitive
My abhorrence of the tasks on the things that I love where I can easily waver and give up even going past the brainstorm stage.
My respect and condolences for people working both of these industries. You all are lunatics. lol
@@GabiN64 AI AI AI AI AI
ai is coming to your job too. its over
Literally two of my three (3) housemates went to school for game design (1) and video game programming (2), got into Microsoft QA for big AAA titles and after 3 years burnt out and never wanna work in games ever again. The two now work for Bad Dragon making adult toys and are very happy and making so much more money.
Meanwhile I went to school for art and got into game industry and have been in here for 6 years just fine thank fully.
Lots of great facts and advice in this episode.
Heh, I got an art degree and I'm recently getting into game development. :3
I’m close friends with a few ppl who worked in the games industry but had to pivot to other jobs just because it’s not mentally or financially stable. It’s terrible that schools are even offering game design degrees and programs at all; they’re massive scams and not everyone who gets one will be lucky enough to be able to get work elsewhere and pay off their student debt.
adult toys?
Have any advise for fellow artists getting into the game industry? I'm focusing on concept art right now, but I'm well versed enough to do other illustration work as well as some 3D.
How does 3 years of game dev lead to a job at Bad Dragon? What useful skills carry over??
Oh NOW you tell me
i littarly graduated on a video game music degree yesterday. fr fr
@@charlesgreenberg6956graduated in may 🤧 good luck
I’m graduating next semester
I get my associates in game dev this month lol
@@charlesgreenberg6956 ay conngrats dude
Turning 18 and wanting to become a musician in the climate of the current creator economy kinda feels like being recruited to war while the front lines are retreating. Very fun feeling
Doesn't help with the number of "I post music to my Spotify and I'm waiting for it to gain traction, and by music I mean AI generated beats" accounts I've seen in various comment sections.
I also post music under this account and it's just as doom and gloom as the games industry. Exept with us it's all about getting people to actually give a shit with our increasingly shrinking attention spans
@scrittle Yeah it's rough out here...
That's gonna be rough if you rely solely on competing on those platforms. My advice is to link up with indie devs (indie devs are aaaalways looking for people to make music) and build some experience and a portfolio doing that while you keep posting on your own social media accounts. Since it's tough to rely solely on your own marketing, use the connections you gain working with people to boost your presence that way. Once people know who you are, it's much easier to build an audience.
If it makes you feel any better, I'm in my 50s, a professional musician and sound designer, and I can tell you that being a musician has always been a nightmare. Since I started in the 90s. In fact in certain ways it is much easier to do your thing these days.
10:25 Stardew Valley was made entirely by one person over the course of 5 years. However, Eric Barone had a TON of time and money, and had a very.. unhealthy work ethic.
His wife was also working full time to support the both of them
@@fearingalma1550 Yep. Stardew Valley is a masterpiece and ended up being wildly successful, but I cannot deny that that is a HUGE red flag. She must have really believed in the project.
Dude was pulling like 12 hours 7/0 on the most scuffed setup imaginable, AND had a part-time job to not be a complete leech on his saint of a girlfriend. You'd have to be really unwell to know the history of Stardew Valley and somehow think it's aspirational - it selling as much as it did and ConcernedApe not having a stroke was a once-in-a-century fluke.
He's for sure the outlier situation
This episode reminds me of one of the first animation gigs I ever had when I was hired as one of two people to animate entire scenes in a week for a 15 minute animated short, In full animation, and the guy in charge was not an animator, and would have us redo shit constantly. If i could like, time travel, I'd skedaddle, but there’s so much ego as a young artist invested in proving yourself despite not having the experience you need. Good episode.
Oh boy the stories industry insiders have.
on specifically WHY AAA games turn out the way they do.
Yes, many devs know how the game is going to be received poorly when they work on it
That's crazy that people who Made the Harry Potter EA games, went on to make Alien Isolation.
That level of oppression those people faced is insane.
Glad this was the first Final V3 I've listened to. I'm a recent graduate in games (3D artist) and man, I'm really just trying to figure out what best career to pivot to right now. Not saying I'll never want to work in games, I just want a job right now that will actually let me in, and won't kill me for doing so. Lots of good info and advice in this one, I'm still struggling with guilt and inadequacy with having a degree in something that I'm not able to get a job in, so it helped to hear that it's actually good to have a "day job" and work on personal projects, until it might lead into you finding a slot in the industry to fit in.
making this kind of pivot right now after getting laid off from my first (pretty lengthy) gig - different situation but I feel it's helped to think of my skills as a trade. something I've learned and continue to develop in my own time because I have a passion for it, but am not solely reliant on it to pay rent. and so accepting that I will need to find a day job comes with the freedom that I DON'T have to sell this skill. I can demand better from a potential employer because I'm fine to fuck off to a job I can just do and leave at work and work on my own passion projects outside of that.
personally, pivoting to personal training turned out to be a two-fer solution for paying rent as well as managing my disability, with a relatively low barrier of entry. but that barrier of entry still exists and is inherently unfair because pivoting takes time and money that we as a society just don't provide, especially to recent graduates. but if there's any certification or training you can access that might get your foot in the door in something that will pay the bills, it seems like that might actually be the best way to access the games industry - by not needing it to survive.
regardless, good luck, and I hope this doesn't spoil the passion for games that brought you here in the first place. that and your skills are still valuable, regardless of the industry's bullshit right now.
no but guys, I'LL be the exception!!
if you join an indie team
exactly it's every part of the entertainment industry. i used to see it with background actors who spend tons of money on their own wardrobes to get a chance at fame and a $60 pay check. society thinks people who work in entertainment don't deserve respect. i know because i've been an entertainer since i was a toddler.
People has less money to spend, big corps taken big market place so money doesn't reach small developers that much.
Entertainment industry only reward a few celebrities, people think it’s only the big name run the whole show
oh boy oh boy oh boy my fovarite noises have returned
Great time to be peaking.
Ughh. The myth of the solo dev. I hate how it's not real but how it's simultaneously a beacon of hope for those of us who can't put a team together. It's scary to work with other devs, strangers, when you're just trying to make what you want. Friends can't always be there, since they are probably in the same boat. Why should I work on stuff I don't really care about if I have a full time job and other responsibilities? The answer is that it's probably better to not work on what you really care about. Instead grind away helping others to get skills ans connections. Only probablem is how much patience and endurance that takes. None of this is intuitive and is also very stressful.
I literally got into research on climate change by sending personal emails at random labs and researchers groups that I have an Erasmus internship and I like their work, thus would you please let me in.
Ended up in the Nordics (which is huge for the subject and also for an undergraduate) and then I started working there like crazy, tried to involve myself with the group as a researcher instead of an intern and even though they had no job to offer me they did all they could to network me into a position. Literally just by bothering random strangers.
I was talking to a singer of a Christian rock band a couple of years back (long story) and the one major piece of advice he gave (for starting a band specifically, but I feel like this applies everywhere) was to get a group of like-minded people to work with, people you can vibe with creatively. Basically he told me to make friends if I want to make it in the entertainment industry. An impossible task.
I love that the listener count is STILL going down.
What do you think happens when the last listener gets it?
@@Sir_Bucketgets it implies they're being hunted down
@@mzov_1724 I mean we did lost a private healthcare CEO last week...
@Sir_Bucket negative number
@@mzov_1724 or, alternatively, it implies viewers realize a fundamental truth about the podcast that makes them completely uninterested in listening any further
1:12:55 RJ should work for Sonic Team. Every single linear level in the last few Sonic games has had a unique music track. Sonic Frontiers and Forces had about 30 linear stages each and most of them were a minute long to play but each had two minutes of original music, and then there's boss fights, incidental music like menu screens, and in Frontiers the entire other half of the game, the open-world gameplay, with many tracks per map there too. The FREE DLC for that game has its own OST with 46 more tracks.
It's actually ridiculous how nobody at Sega has ever made the entirely reasonable suggestion to cut costs at Sonic Team by comissioning less than 110+ tracks for each game's OST. It's unbelievable that almost all of that output slaps.
no bullshit me being a born and bred sonic fan from go (my parents' wedding gift to one another was a sega genesis with sonic 1) and playing sonic cd and sonic 3 back to back at a hugely impressionable age probably has a fuckload to do with this
tbh the heart and soul of a Sonic game is always the music, that's why the fans put up with the bullshit
@fearingalma1550 the fans put up with the bullshit because some of the games are good dude
What you are describing is the tech world environment that I have been working in for the last 8 years. You can't keep a job because no employer is loyal to their employees AND there are definitely companies that made you less employable than no experience. I think times are changing to a no great time.
Less employable can happen? Is this sort of like tech where if you have FAANG experience a few smaller companies think you would be too ambitious? Or is it more like most companies don't want to hire from sweatshops?
@@parus8798 Amazon is the main example, they have a terribly toxic work culture
@@parus8798 in a previous episode, they mentioned some studios have such notoriously bad practices that when people move to other studios, they have to take the time to unlearn those bad habits in order to not destroy the workflow of the team. Not to mention awful company culture *cough actiblizz cough* causing interpersonal conflicts at times
@@parus8798 Yes. In my experience it was both, one instance for the former and another for the latter.
I heard someone say that game industry is an enterntainment industry that acts like a tech industry
Fact check: cartoon Network studios isn't actually shutting down, they just close the building to move to another one.
This was the most validating thing i've listened to after such an AWFUL year as a game dev. I needed this more then i thought
in general I've treated it like how it was suggested in the video. Couldn't get into the games industry initially after college, so joined volunteer projects to work with other people. Poached one of the members who knew programming that I jived with the most in that, and have been doing our first project together in our own time outside of our full time jobs.
In-between I've tackled working with different volunteer teams for game jams, working in solar/fabrication, and now about to start a job working as a print tech to potentially climb a corporate ladder in my hometown. Right now for the most part I've been trying and talking to people online who like solving games as a problem, and hanging out with people just in general to how I was in high school.
Still stressed as fuck, never able to feel like having enough time to do the things I want, but I'm able to survive and at least have something to show for myself.
First time listener here. Really enjoyed this episode! As someone outside the games industry but still working in big tech, a lot of this sounds familiar, especially the "be careful of people with big ideas and no plans of how to execute them". This is crazy common in big tech corps. I've worked almost 10 years now in the industry and I feel like I've spent almost half of that time working on random "ideas" instead of projects with plans. And, of course, those are ALWAYS the worst projects. They tend to transform into projects where developers are expected to make every decision as a community, and eventually the "idea" turns into just a hodge-podge of features that don't go well together at all. Whacko stuff.
Thanks for the reassurance that this is common and I'm not crazy lol.
I've been pretty lucky to have had a lucrative career in the games industry as an engineer/programmer. I put this down to several things:
Entering the industry much older on average - I spent my 20s working in labor/construction and temp/contract office work, and concentrated on music and skateboarding in my spare time. Towards my late 20s I wanted to get a real career and I realized I *enjoyed* solving complex problems, building things and learning how computer and video game hardware worked, I also realized programmers could charge good money with experience. So I started watching Stanford comp sci lectures on youtube and learning c/c++ and comp sci. I read loads of blogs and ordered books online. I became somewhat of a hermit after work but within two years I took myself to Japan, worked teaching English and got an admittedly underpaid job in games but the experience was worth it - I was able to negotiate pretty good salaries and packages later on.
I learned about the wide world of work, people, who I did want to work with and not want to work with, how to look for red flags during interviews, developing a distrust of certain types of people and how to identify them, what I actually enjoyed doing for work and didn't, the reality of rent and bills, looking for room mates etc. I didn't come in to the industry straight out of school, naive and not knowing anything about the big wide world. It's more brutal now so many might not have the luxury to be young anymore nor be able to network in real-world spaces not online so I realise how incredibly lucky I was.
designing props at midnight, quote "I bet they have food in their fridge" made me cry a little
I love hearing 1:12:55 the two completely opposite reactions to someone confidently saying they doubled their workload for a game because of an incredibly petty personal preference. Kino.
You have no idea how convenient this video was to me. I'm a self taught animator and artist. A lot of my work has gone viral and was recognized by corporations, influencers, podcasters, a lot of my pieces went viral. I'm currently making a manga, documentary, and video game all on my own. They all take place in the same universe so I'm sharing a lot of assets. Learning BLENDER (3d software) helps A LOT. Also, I don't use AI. it's rough out there man, I tell ya. But I still fight for my dreams.
This is nice to hear for as dreadful as it was in the beginning of college, and can be currently nearly 2 months before the “finishline” (or 40 miles behind another starting line who knows)
Perhaps my fear is that I have been watching all these game dev talks and taking all these drawing courses and books and lectures etc. and all fueled towards gaming, animation, comic books and graphic novels because that’s what fueled me as a kid with their life lessons and magical story telling.
To think outside that box while adapting using those very tools you’ve been honing is scary because it feels like walking without a beaten path. But the alternative has a plethora of people saying how terrible the pay, hours, and abuse is. Both are scary, but I can’t tell the future.
I can only listen to myself, my peers, and people within these industries and try and make the best decisions in between.
So again thank you for the incite
I'm glad i'm doing gamedev as a hobby. Maybe one day i'll get to do gamedev fulltime, but i'm not sacrificing my idealism or my worklife balance to do it.
I legit started planning a mock portfolio for game concept art yesterday, guess it's the coal mines for me
Try not think of your skills for one thing but all make a UA-cam channel or some and make what concept art weapons etc would work well in new popular games, or characters etc
I learnt slowly we all try to feed from the highest thing of the time
Do not enter the animation industry either.
48:47 200$ per minute of animation sounds insane when I work for 100$ and am insecure about raising my price
I hope you get the raise you deserve next time you do contract work
Depends on quality of art and animation. High level art 20 frames per second for 1 minute that potentially 1,200 unique frames. If you're not producing low detail art. You should charge more. $150 can't hurt.😏
Even 200 bucks for a whole minute of decent quality animation sounds pretty cheap. Am I crazy? if you live in the US (or any other reasonably developed country), you're probably better off flipping burgers if you're going to charge that low.
After seeing the Bass Reeves video, this conversation has so much more weight
A friend of mine got a job at a pretty up and coming developer. When the team was small, they had him work on plenty of projects, but once they started to get big, they shoved him to the sidelines in favor of hiring people who have worked on triple-A games, purely because they worked on big games. Shit sucks, man
I AINT HEAR NO BELL! I will now proceed to struggle by myself.
Weezer album ahh thumbnail
My favorite podcast to listen to, and hear the noises in my ears while I play the podcast with my phone with my earbuds in my ears, hearing the noises.. in my ears.
Thanks for reminding me of the game I drew stuff for almost a decade ago, whose main developer vanished off of twitter at the start of the pandemic [but not before slagging off his previous composer for spurious reasons].
Half the reason I don't do revenue share is because of that guy.
i legit had to do a spit take when i heard the name “RJ Lake” because i knew him primarily for making music for a webcomic (which i shall not name)
ok he mentioned it. shoulda listened to the whole thing before commenting 😅
(if you’re seeing this, RJ, your music absolutely rocks)
what does it say about me that I wanna be an animator way more after hearing this whole episode
It shows that you're truly passionate and you want to defy all odds, proving an evil world wrong. It won't be easy, but with the proper discipline, you can make this a reality.
Sad thing is, the PRIZE for WINNING that battle is just more salt mines and disposability.
Forget onboarding to a company. Just find your team/friends and plop out some hot fun garbage and see what happens.
TIGSource in the 2010s was this place. I loved it.
video game
I've been through the ringer as well (in animation)
Going all in with a startup studio claiming to want to change the anime industry only to **literally** no hyperbole become what it was trying to avoid and fix.
Became embroiled in another startup where the guy I was relying on ended up being a total grifter. Lied about having a terminal illness (with stolen valor) to extort money and delay payments with OVER a quarter million dollar of debt to other people he did business with, unpaid wages multiple people both workers and clients screwed over and life savings destroyed.
I got word from a friend of mines who is doing work with a startup studio where I am hearing about an insulting working rate that is worse than McDonalds, obviously they are pushing for faster turnarounds so people don't steamroll hours on the project but its just absolutely insane regardless.
Its hard to be an artist out there, you either get no money or some money, maybe even come across a lot of money every now and then..
I feel like my bar of compensation has risen but if I don't have income for long enough the bar gets lower until something comes by to raise it again, rinse repeat.
This comment makes me feel I'm too human to do enough bad shit to raise 💀
I'm currently in my 3rd year in a game programming course, and from my (limited) view it's kind of an impossible choice with the games industry when you really enjoy making games. Working with other talented people to make something cool is an intoxicating experience, with all the agile processes, difficulties and inevitable crunch feeling worth it for what you get to make.
Obviously this is something of a safety net, where students get to play the part of product owners and scrum masters alongside their discipline-specific game work - my experiences do not include being under the boot of some corporate bigwigs. Even so, I can't imagine leaving behind the mess of game development, even if it was rife with crunch and difficulty. It's just too fun.
Maybe that's a bright-eyed opinion that will fade when I actually enter the industry. Other than taking the risky plunge into an indie studio startup as a graduate, I just don't see any other way.
Sam here - yeahhhh, I def get where you're coming from. Intoxicating is a great word for it. I think a lot of the key here comes down to agency. In the crudest terms, f-cking yourself over for a higher goal, eyes wide open, putting that brick on the gas pedal and leaning in, with a stake whatever happens on the other side - however unhealthy - can be absolutely exhilarating. Being f-cked over, while poorly compensated, by a bunch of people who cut your brakes (and own your car), _without the upside_, can be terrifying. (There's a spectrum, but these are the ends.)
So if we wanna push the field forward, and give players new experiences that deserve to exist- we gotta do the work of carving human spaces out of this mechanical industry. (As Dan mentioned, in a different environment, those devs went on to make Alien Isolation!) Be ambitious and kind, and _look out for each other_. Eyes wide open!
Love how sometimes you get pop culture trivia here. Sometimes pure dread
as someone who might get an internship for an EA studio this episode really scared me
Good luck out there
That sounds like it will be hell.
You see, that's your FIRST mistake
Oh god I needed to hear this talk years ago, I wanted to be a game dev for the longest time and worked on my own game 5+ years and saw nothing come from it. I can't tell you how depressing it is to suffer that alone, so much effort gets overlooked and unappreciated for nothing what a miserable time that was.
Don't do everything on your own, find people! Host events use your local library or contribute online. Stay the f away from solo dev.
I started software consulting about 15 years ago. I've always gotten the sense when talking to game devs that I'm not a "real" dev because I make 31 flavors of CRM ad nauseam. My job is the opposite of glamorous or interesting, to be fair.
I make NES and GBC games for fun and don't have a mortgage.
This has the same vibes of a support therapy group. Very enjoyable though. Anyway you probably already know this but in this industry, functionally the same dynamics happen even in foreign countries almost bit by bit...
this felt like 2 minutes this is so cool keep it up I'm happily depressed now
58:37 omg that editors note was greatly appreciated!
i JUST rolled credits on i am your beast so this is awesome
-" the girl, hearing this..." being quoted made me feel like those self aware stories. Creepy
This is so cool to hear when I’m so close to graduating (sunk cost fallacy yaaaay)
Amazing episode! I really liked it, hope I can make use of these tips one day, once again leaving with a sense of dread and excitement
rare youtube algo quality content pull lmao. now i got some things to think about, at crossroads about giving up trying for games and switching to something meta instead
Oh wild, random Omegalodon namedrop. I loved that game!
Great episode!
1:01:09 oh, hi
Can you please upload this later, I'm busy rn
Mb
You guys always manage to say something ridiculously profound about creativity and i both love you for it and despise the fact that YOU came up with that insight and I, also a creative person, didn't
Oh man, hearing people talk about TIGSource--the nostalgia!
Watching this in my last semester after a 4 year game design course. I've completely fucked my future already, may as well see how fucked I am in this video.
Unreal engine?
@nhinged Yeah unfortunately
Hi, anime animator here, you have no idea how true hearing about how anime work gets exploited on the daily if it wasn't for the worker shortage so they would get in contact with people overseas
omg julianoodle i love this goddamn podcast so much dont ever stop and more importantly dont ever get burnt out or tired of it because its so perfect
also "Dont ever be like 'i can do this in a week' its so unhealthy" *cut to sexfm flashbacks*
"Life after pie" made me glad to have pursued my creativity as myself being an unknown for the last 20 years
BTW thanks for making this podcast. I dont know who any of you are but ive been listening since the first episode and its been great! Love to hear a podcast about game development!
Probably one of the best podcast I've happened upon randomly (well also the only one ive randomly happened upon)
In college for game dev, and I'm kinda wondering what the hell I wanna do afterwards. I definitely don't want to get into AAA development (I decided that even before watching this video), and I definitely don't have the funds (nor courage) to open my own studio. No funds is also why I'm waiting 'til the tail-end of my current project to get assistance with things I straight up cannot do (translations and voice sfx).
Yeah that’s kinda where I’m at, a lot of the indie companies like New Blood and Night Dive want people with 5 years of industry experience too, it’s tricky to navigate
Poetic that this is coming out 2 weeks after getting my first games job
Every time I see a video like this it actually has some weird opposite effect. Like a chinese finger trap.
E: Ahh shit 43:20
I have other interests too though.
too bad, gotta commit to the bit
Game awards was an even bigger joke of talking light about the layout and not taking the situation seriously
Fantastic title to read after starting a course in software design with game dev
why is the thumbnail weezercoded
i love how all these videos abt the game industry sucking are coming out while im in school to get a degree in game art. An omen, perhaps.
trying to get into the gaming industry. I went into the marines exactly because they said "too hard don't do it"
goal is to be a game designer.
I don't need money from anyone, just word of mouth. and connections. I wont use you but I will ask a lot of questions if u have the time to be bothered.
i don't like working with people, really hate that no one is reliable. but I will take your guys advice and expand myself and look for those that are into the projects I want to make and hopefully they get pulled towards it and help cause I am broke lol
thank you for the podcast
Entertainment as an "industry" is one of the single biggest scams in human history.
1:13 what is this fuckin good mythical morning
Great episode and absolutely hysterical way to end it. I enjoyed it a lot as usual!
ever since i finished homestuck i have yet to consume a piece of media that at some point does not have a homestuck reference and i am distraught at this
also what music did they make i crave this knowledge
"guy who has only seen Boss Baby" ass comment
wHAT dO yOU mEAN }:'(
@@KerpewA a better way of saying it is that I Cannot Escape The Homestuck
@ you dont choose homestuck.. it chooses you.
WAIT I LOVE UNBEATABLE! So excited for the full game to come out
❤
I don't want to enter the games industry. I want to make games.
Not only should you not not enter any creative industry you should not even do it as a hobby, in fact if you know anyone doing either STOP THEM DONT LET THEM EVEN IF YOU DONT KNOW THEM
Heyyy, you finally ended up on the front page. Been listening to pretty much every episode on Spotify, hopefully this should push your numbers up!
really love these podcasts and the sorts of topics/insights u get into
was wondering whether you guys have considered adding discord like pfps that light up depending on whos talking with guests
This is the best podcast I've listened to. I hope that's not a sad thing.
does anyone have a source for cn studios shutting down? I can't find anything
The one true solo developer game I can think of is Cave Story. But that is older.
Edit: oh THAT RJ. The one from the song mix!
Also Cave Story was like his 5th or so game, all of his previous games were simpler and smaller - like GUXT, or all the preview versions of Kero Blaster.
9:00 but cruelty squad villie kallio did exactly this. several intensely good indie games were made solo. just never say never i mean you have to be crazy in the first place to even get in there
I'm glad that I only dev games for fun, solo. I almost dread the idea of one of my projects taking off, then I'd have to live up to that lightning in a bottle.
I hope to maybe make enough from my passion projects to buy a few pizzas, lol. (To be fair, I'd make games for free, but I feel like not charging anything would devalue the games in the eyes of the players).
Definitely sad that it's so hard for people to make a stable living doing what they love, though. Much respect to all you guys!
Played the unbeatable demo, loved every second of it. Already wishlisted and ready for it
How many times have you had a cell divide in your body. That's how many times you've changed.
thank u for the cathartic rant abt the entertainment industry i've been feeling like im going insane (in what feels like) watching that ship go down before some other configuration of en masse labor abuse takes form
Truly the best gayming podcast ever
*hears about the UK bit on "internalized processes" when I moved to this country, studied here and wanted to make it into the games industry*
*Anxiety washes over them*
RJ ON FINAL V3 LETS GOOOOOOOOO
>industry-agnostic sound people giving advice
Hey for an episode with guests like this, could we get a credit list in the description?
updated the description! oops