Definitely option C. I would lower the inverters so they are not in a heat trap close the ceiling. The inverters need to breath as heat rises it gets trapped and the inverters A/C output gets derated. I would use the gray finger duct as it has slots for the conductors to breath as well to dissipate heat.
I’d go with option c. Thank you for your hard work in bringing these excellent and informative videos to us, really appreciate them, time for a SPAT :)
You are a recipe for those amongst us that having a minor time. I do not know how you remain so optimistic, but it is a inspiring a lot of people. Your personality is a great value for me and probably a lot of others. As it seems, you have enough space above the inverters to route the 230Volt cables free. Please keep all your cables on the PowerWall within arms length, so you have the possibility to change (future) or inspect the functionality of these power cables. Vriendschappelijke groet, Peter
Thank you so much, Peter. I try to stay optimistic and share that with my audience. Not everyone is in the fortunate situation of having the resources to set up such a system. I'm fully aware of that.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia A Multiplus-II does not accept generator input when set to the picky german grid code. You have to pay 100% EEG reallocation charge if a public road dissects your property between your PV-panels and your buildings but only 40% if it is a conveyer belt of a coal mining company. That's the green deal according to the CDU.🤔 They created 150 DIN A4 pages of bureaucrazy (not a typo!) to prevent the energy transition. 😡 Your videos motivate me again to switch to a Quattro-II after being frustrated by german grid regulations! 😀
First things first: - The „Bierbauch“ check for the Aluminium board stability would pass any TÜV (technical supervision approval) - I give an okay here! Next: - I vote for solution C, because all cables are visible and do not cross sharp drilling edges. The construction keeps obvious and maintainable after years. Best :)
A beer belly is conveniant for mechanical stress tests.😉 I have to strap on a 30 kg cement bag to do this. 🤪 Luckily Andy works in his own home. Otherwise an Employers' Liability Insurance Association officer would go bonkers because of the pool shoes! 😉
Very very nice. Your Videos are amazing. Always got a smile on my face ! Technically brilliant too. My MP2 battery connector looks exactly like yours. Only Victron knows why one side is a PCB only. Greetings from good old Germany.
You could go with C and slotted duct like you are doing on the DC side, it will work fine and look fine, but I really think you would be better off leaving room for three inverters and moving your AC panel below them. In 6 years you will be able to feed a lot of energy to your house, and while I enjoy watching you work I would not enjoy seeing you have to rework the system in the future. Just my 2 watts. In any event I am looking forward to seeing what you decide, this is the most fun I have ever had watching videos. Also your other channels are just as entertaining, especially the Repair of the Chinese lighter (minute 2:08). I don't speak German but with your help I am picking up a few words. Great job and thank you.
Hi Andy, I'd opt for option 'C' to maintain separation between AC and DC. Don't go behind the panel with any cables... you can't inspect/check while in service.
Hi Andy ... since I'm way too late again, very briefly: 1.) My Multplus II has the same connection for the B- ... But I trust Victron, that they already know what they're doing. 2.) Option C, if you can keep the 10cm distance with it. 6mm² is a good choice... Greetings from the alte Heimat.
Yes, you can cross perpendicular ( 90 degrees ) without any problems ... I built commercial and military flight simulators with massive amounts of AC,DC and signal wiring underneath the computer flooring and we had no choice but to cross over at 90 degrees without any problems whatsoever... We also had 400 hz for the flight computers running everywhere... Shortest cable runs are best and will still look professional...
Andy, you know it is only a matter of time before you are running 3 MultiPlus IIs in parallel. My vote is for "A", bite the bullet and install AC below the inverters now. You have the tool to punch holes, punch the aluminum and punch the horizontal girder. It will be the cleanest. Not to mention fun to watch!!
option c andy, looks cleanest ( especially when cable gutter are right next to each other), will prevent drilling holes, and allows for future "upgrades" ( read as changes) more easily as it leaves more room
Is it possible to bring the cables out of the bottom of the combiner box straight down to the isolator box. This would relieve some strain on those cables having to do a 180 out the top and also move that duct further over to the left to make space for your AC duct running along side the inverters in option C. Just a thought to tidy things up a bit! Love the content :)
Thank you. I will need the space in between the combiner box and the isolator box for more equipment. Hence I placed the duct to the side. But yeah, I get your point, makes totally sense.
Hi Use the C options You will use a 6mm wire, so the maximum current as flow is 18 AMPS assuming that it will be about 3 m long. So energy loss will be up to a maximum of 0.14%. This is 6W at maximum load. And it will be easier to change something in the future. Good luck 💪 Greetings from Poland
Hello most friendly Andy, I agree with a lot of our community and opt for C. Also to consider that all cables are then in plain sight, which is a big plus. Beste groet, Peter
What if you hook the AC cables left and up, then run the AC trunk above the inverters to the AC distribution on the right fed from above distributing downwards. If you get me?
My Multiplus has the same battery connections, busbar on positive terminal and connection to pcb on negative. I would choose C, go above and keep AC completely seperate. Great videos btw.
Why do you not just run the AC over the top of the inverter. Keep the DC connection as short as possible and then run the AC up over the top of the inverter to the roof. No crossing!
That's what was saying piggy backing inverters only makes sense with different incompatible batteries like 2 sets of lead acid one being SLA 200AH and another AGM 330AH you don't want to mix the lower with higher as it will make the 330AH the lower denominator (200AH) . But running inverters off those and piggy backing you can continue to feed the load to avoid too much depth of discharge on both sets. Also looking at some LiFePo batteries as 12V (supposed drop in for ones car/4wd battery) but some of them are saying you can't run in parallel or series or very limited connection (3 in either or 2 in either) - that's due to its internal BMS?
There is no issue running multiple inverters from the same battery, regardless if they are standalone or in parallel or in series. Lead acid batteries is a total no go for these projects though. Old tech and not worth buying any more.
Hi Andy, and thank you again for your videos, I watched all your videos from the beginning, it's funny, and interresting... About the passages of your cables, I personally will pass all the cables behind your aluminum sheet, you are lucky to have a configuration with double panels, yes it will give you much more work, passage holes, but I'm sure that the final result will be very clean, we will hardly see any cables. it's my opinion, you alone will make the final decision. good continuation Andy.
AC can go up above the inverters and avoid crossing DC. It'll add a bit more length to the wire but that's not as much of a concern with AC. Edit: I should watch to the end before commenting lol - Go with option C!
Thanks Andy, I was thinking the C option but there will be a lot of heat above the inverters. So punching holes (a lot more work) but would look neat. Also why the 6mm cable 4mm is good for 32 amp, I wouldn't go out and buy 4mm if you have 6mm on hand though.
I need the space for the DC cables and the isolator under the inverter. The switchboard won't be in the middle but further to the left of I install it there. That's does not look great.
Hi Andy, now after 2 years, how is the the negative bus bar on the inverter doing? I 'm switching to Victron and I have the same worries. Schöne grüße aus Patagonien.
Hi Andy, always good to watch someone else struggle with equipment and wiring positioning! Your 6mm SRF has a Thermo Plastic Sheath which is not classified as double insulated, as such it should have and extra barrier between it and any DC or data cable...
If the popular option C isnt possible a variation to the 90degree crossing would be in duct stacked 2 deep but offset for access,so you still have your ac and dc separation. The crossing of cable is still enclosed in duct and cable dives from the bottom stack to the top stack when crossing is required. Bit more complicated than C though. Best wishes, keep up the good work
I would keep dc on bottom going up to the inverters. Run ac on top of inverters loop the the left of them. Is that C? You don't want your ac intermingled with your dc in the same conduit.
Hi Andy, ich würde deine Option C nehmen. Die AC Kabel nach oben zu verlegen und dann dort nach rechts zu führen, ist denke ich eine saubere und einfache Lösung 😄
Option C always. All DC conduit run at bottom. All AC conduit run at top of instalation. If you need to run DC from top do it from left/right side of instalation not the middle. If need AC from ground run from right/left side oposite of previous.
I think C would be the cleanest. DC comes up from the batteries, AC drops down to the inverters, That was my initial thought before you outlined the 3 choices.
hi Andy, DC cable shortest possible way, AC go up and around the inverters. I read somewhere/heared never to switch the DC minus of the victron multiplus. DC minus have to be permanent connected to the battery.
Well, It seems that the more thermal and electromagnetic friendly route will be the Option A, so the inverters heat's don't warm up your AC cables and also you avoid any possible electromagnetic interference between AC and DC. Great installation, I hope you left a 1mm gap between plates to absorb thermal expansion produced by 60°C delta due to environment and induced heat from the inverters.
Thanks George. No gap between the panels. From previous experience, the panels won't get that warm. The air circulates nicely behind the outside wall and the aluminium, it does not get hot, just warm on some sunny days.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia ja gut. Dann spricht nichts dagegen. Muss man sich halt nur durchringen die schönen Platten zu durchlöchern 😁 Aber im Kanal mit Zugänglichkeit ist halt auch schön. Macht sicherlich was her. Gerade wenn man doch nochmal umbauen möchte. Da könnten größere Löcher an der falschen Stelle stören. Aber egal wie, Du machst das sicher und sauber. Grüße aus Halle bei Leipzig
I think C is the popular option. I was going to suggest this as well after I saw you present option A and B, but before I commented, I saw everyone saying C, so I figured I should watch the whole video before I comment, lol.
Is the bar structural to the garage? ie remove for a couple of bays? or cut and put on front. just thought while typing, or cut holes in it and wire through?
Hi Andy for each of the inverters AC out can't you come down to a isolator +or not) then to the left, up and over the inverters making your routing of AC up and over the inverters? Just a thought.
Hi Andy. The positive is not connected to the pcb, it comes directly from the power bridge. On your video around the 5.54 minute mark you can see it if you look through the grill.
Hi Andy, I'd say run the ac up and over the inverter as option 1, then option 2 is a new hole. Use some prestic to stick some foam up to simulate what the trunking would look like if you go up and over. The advantage of having ac from the top it would be a cleaner install with the ac distribution box, as they feed in from the top and output is at the bottom and the bottom just happens to be where your outside property ac Junction is. But simulate it right at the top end of the aluminum plates and just above the inverters. Noting that ac length of cable doesn't matter.
I was wondering about option C for most of the video. It would have been nice to have made that decision before hanging the inverters to allow space though. Unless you'll run a conduit along the underside of the roof, not fouling the hot air output (?) of the inverters (heat rises). Interested to see what you go with.
No matter what…. Cables will meet in some point. With your good design and double insulated cable there will be no problem in crossing in some points. A lot os installers use wire gutters and run everything inside them with no problem. Just instal everything in the front. This alternative is mor flexible for the future.
U finally convinced me to buy all Victron gear except the inverter I can't afford those but I have everything else even two of there charge controllers.
i'm a little confused as to the "issue" of crossing/not wanting to cross the wires... in my Schneider Power Distribution Panel, it's designed to have all wires (ac & dc) go through a 3" hole to the inverter and back. (LOTS of ac & dc playing together!) never had a problem or been an issue. also, i've seen 'professional' solar installers use big cable chases for both ac & dc wires together. is this *REALLY* an issue? i'm aware there are 'signal interference' issues running video/radio/audio cable next to power cables, but not ac next to dc...
I don't see any problem crossing the cables, I've manufactured high end amps with high voltage/Current on DC side and it is really complex to have that together with low distortion when a discrete pre-amp that is just a couple of cm from the high current pcb routes. If you put the cables side by side it could induce voltage between cables, but to just have a 90 degree crossover I cant see anything wrong with? a cool test could be to have this setup incl,. ac cable and connect high load to inverter so you pull i.e 50A through dc cable and look at the ac through an oscilloscope and see if it get deformed in any way while you move dc cable closer and closer to ac cable, my strong belief is no.
I think option C is best. I also recommend keeping the two AC outputs from the inverters at least a few inches apart, to prevent induction between the two sine waves which may be out of phase from each other.
If you are planning to someday extend your build to 3 Multipluses/Inverters, I would just use a proper sized duct with max. 50mm height (from the aluminium panels' perspective) under the Inverters horizontally to manage AC lines. Only problem with that would be the two screws holding the black cover from underneath.. Also I'd remove these round grey cable management thingys and go straight into the duct. If its not too late already you also could swap the MPPT panels with the Inverter panels in order have the shortest DC cables possible from your busbars (straight down into the battery compartment) as they will carry the highest current when the inverters are loaded with 5kW. For strain relief on the DC cables you could then use some M20 cable glands when going out of the bottom part of the duct. I don't think that DC and AC lines crossing in 90° angle will cause any problem. It's super interesting to see your projects evolving, so please keep up the great work! While still getting enough sleep that is of course 😅
Thank you for your comment and thoughts. I considered swapping the MPPT and inverter side. In the manual of the Multi it says not to mount them above the batteries. I guess this is only for lead acid batteries though and the gases which could escape the batteries while charging. It would also be beneficial because the Multis don't need any maintenance in this hard to reach area... I consider all this for the next build. I promise 😉
Imagine a copper plane the size of the entire PCB. Now imagine (potentially) 2 of those planes. 2 massive copper "tabs" the size of the inverter. Probably 2mm thick each. This is likely to be what Victron has implemented in the design. Using vias tho bring the negative through to the surface where it is needed.
@@sjdtmv Is Josh's system Multiplus II, or just Multiplus? New revision without bus bar on negative, because "ground plains"? Josh's system is also 12-v. Andy's is 48v. Josh needs to pass 4x the amps for the same power from a 48v system.
@@sjdtmv Multiplus only went to 5KVA. MultiPlus-II combines the functions of the MultiPlus and the MultiGrid. It goes up to 10KVA. So it's a different design.
Cross at right angles, but run the AC hard up under the Invertor so it crosses the DC where it has to bend away from Al panel to enter the grommet into the Multiplus. AC is in Electrical conduit, DC is in its duct till it has to leap up to the grommets into the Multiplus.
I don't think there will be a problem crossing the SRF cable and the DC wires. The currents in the SRF cable should be balanced eliminating a common mode voltage so the electromagnetic field around the cable should be minimal. Having the 2 current carrying conductors so close to each other in the cable will also reduce any EM field. You can easily test this by mocking up an AC cable (running expected currents) crossing your DC wires (also running expected currents) and measuring any induced AC component on the DC wires with a multimeter set to AC V. If you do see some crosstalk there, try putting in a 6" square piece of sheet metal between the DC and AC conductors for shielding. See if it reduces the induced signal on the DC wires.
Looks like C to me Andy, Why is it we spend days procrastinating about how were why etc, This is what takes me the longest in my projects as i have to see all options before i can move on lol
while you discussed about A or B, I thought, there is a solution C, running AC up at the side of the inverters and on top of the inverters. AC cabling has lower currents and can be longer. The inverters can be lowered a bit. Greetings from the old world.
Run a duct horizontally across the top and conduit from each inverter into bottom side of duct, a variation on Option “c” Or punch hole in panel and run behind panel/inverter and come out inside duct running horizontally across the top for the A/C.
I have two MultiPlus-II 48/5000 purchased for 6 months ago, and the minus terminal are also a PCB connector. I think it has to do that the MultiPlus-II is a cheaper version compered to the more robust multiplus version for marine use etc....
Thank you Dennis. There is a Quattro and a Multiplus. They are basically the same device except the Quattro has tow AC inputs. They also share the same PCB, technology and enclosure.
How about having a switch, where you can choose, either the piggy bank situation, or make them work independently in two different systems and choose when that happens. Not sure this makes sense.
That would not work as all the load is either connected to the Multi or has to be split up between the two. That cannot be realised with just a switch...
Definitely option C. I would lower the inverters so they are not in a heat trap close the ceiling. The inverters need to breath as heat rises it gets trapped and the inverters A/C output gets derated. I would use the gray finger duct as it has slots for the conductors to breath as well to dissipate heat.
I would go for C. Easiest way and some meters more of cable length doesn't matter much on the AC side.
run the ac to the left of the inverter then around the top to the right and down to the ac box
otherwise C
😂
I’d go with option c. Thank you for your hard work in bringing these excellent and informative videos to us, really appreciate them, time for a SPAT :)
Awesome, thank you!
You are a recipe for those amongst us that having a minor time. I do not know how you remain so optimistic, but it is a inspiring a lot of people. Your personality is a great value for me and probably a lot of others. As it seems, you have enough space above the inverters to route the 230Volt cables free. Please keep all your cables on the PowerWall within arms length, so you have the possibility to change (future) or inspect the functionality of these power cables.
Vriendschappelijke groet, Peter
Thank you so much, Peter. I try to stay optimistic and share that with my audience. Not everyone is in the fortunate situation of having the resources to set up such a system. I'm fully aware of that.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia A Multiplus-II does not accept generator input when set to the picky german grid code.
You have to pay 100% EEG reallocation charge if a public road dissects your property between your PV-panels and your buildings but only 40% if it is a conveyer belt of a coal mining company. That's the green deal according to the CDU.🤔
They created 150 DIN A4 pages of bureaucrazy (not a typo!) to prevent the energy transition. 😡
Your videos motivate me again to switch to a Quattro-II after being frustrated by german grid regulations! 😀
First things first:
- The „Bierbauch“ check for the Aluminium board stability would pass any TÜV (technical supervision approval) - I give an okay here!
Next:
- I vote for solution C, because all cables are visible and do not cross sharp drilling edges. The construction keeps obvious and maintainable after years.
Best :)
A beer belly is conveniant for mechanical stress tests.😉 I have to strap on a 30 kg cement bag to do this. 🤪
Luckily Andy works in his own home. Otherwise an Employers' Liability Insurance Association officer would go bonkers because of the pool shoes! 😉
I had to press hard to make it look excessive and appropriate!
Very very nice. Your Videos are amazing. Always got a smile on my face ! Technically brilliant too. My MP2 battery connector looks exactly like yours. Only Victron knows why one side is a PCB only. Greetings from good old Germany.
Thanks a lot for the confirmation. Yeah, it seems odd but apparently this is not very common in aircon units to save on weight.
You could go with C and slotted duct like you are doing on the DC side, it will work fine and look fine, but I really think you would be better off leaving room for three inverters and moving your AC panel below them. In 6 years you will be able to feed a lot of energy to your house, and while I enjoy watching you work I would not enjoy seeing you have to rework the system in the future. Just my 2 watts. In any event I am looking forward to seeing what you decide, this is the most fun I have ever had watching videos. Also your other channels are just as entertaining, especially the Repair of the Chinese lighter (minute 2:08). I don't speak German but with your help I am picking up a few words. Great job and thank you.
Thanks so much for your comment and sharing your thoughts. Funny you're watching my German channels too without understanding anything...
Don't burn out, Andy. America loves you.
Nah, all good. Just need some mental support with decision making 😚
Thanks for the video, Andy. I would put the AC cables behind the panels. Have a nice day.
Hi Andy, I'd opt for option 'C' to maintain separation between AC and DC. Don't go behind the panel with any cables... you can't inspect/check while in service.
I was thinking C before the end of the video. After that you propose that. AC is better to "go around", DC as shorter as you can
I would go up, option C. Great videos btw.
Thanks Petr.
Hi Andy ... since I'm way too late again, very briefly:
1.) My Multplus II has the same connection for the B- ... But I trust Victron, that they already know what they're doing.
2.) Option C, if you can keep the 10cm distance with it. 6mm² is a good choice...
Greetings from the alte Heimat.
Thanks for the tips!
Totally agree with the majority: OPTION C
Yes, you can cross perpendicular ( 90 degrees ) without any problems ...
I built commercial and military flight simulators with massive amounts of AC,DC and signal wiring underneath the computer flooring and we had no choice but to cross over at 90 degrees without any problems whatsoever... We also had 400 hz for the flight computers running everywhere... Shortest cable runs are best and will still look professional...
Andy, you know it is only a matter of time before you are running 3 MultiPlus IIs in parallel. My vote is for "A", bite the bullet and install AC below the inverters now. You have the tool to punch holes, punch the aluminum and punch the horizontal girder. It will be the cleanest. Not to mention fun to watch!!
I was going to add option C) but then you threw it in near the end 🤣👊 my choice would be C) 👍
Which ever looks the most tidiest. We are going to look at this for years to come. 👍
option c andy, looks cleanest ( especially when cable gutter are right next to each other), will prevent drilling holes, and allows for future "upgrades" ( read as changes) more easily as it leaves more room
S6 E19 Married with Children Kelly Bundy says “Your lucky number is C”. Don’t question the wisdom of the Bundy’s ;)
Is it possible to bring the cables out of the bottom of the combiner box straight down to the isolator box. This would relieve some strain on those cables having to do a 180 out the top and also move that duct further over to the left to make space for your AC duct running along side the inverters in option C. Just a thought to tidy things up a bit! Love the content :)
Thank you. I will need the space in between the combiner box and the isolator box for more equipment. Hence I placed the duct to the side. But yeah, I get your point, makes totally sense.
Hi
Use the C options
You will use a 6mm wire, so the maximum current as flow is 18 AMPS assuming that it will be about 3 m long. So energy loss will be up to a maximum of 0.14%. This is 6W at maximum load.
And it will be easier to change something in the future.
Good luck 💪
Greetings from Poland
Hello most friendly Andy, I agree with a lot of our community and opt for C. Also to consider that all cables are then in plain sight, which is a big plus.
Beste groet, Peter
Thank you.
Your Copy/Paste skills are far more advanced than mine! :)
And so quick, right? 😄
@2:08 Click - bait title could have been: " watch Andy hang himself in the Off Grid Garage. "
Not yet... such titles get censored by UA-cam and I would l loose all the income from it 😂
What if you hook the AC cables left and up, then run the AC trunk above the inverters to the AC distribution on the right fed from above distributing downwards.
If you get me?
Option C?
People are funny, right?
My Multiplus has the same battery connections, busbar on positive terminal and connection to pcb on negative. I would choose C, go above and keep AC completely seperate. Great videos btw.
Same style of connection on my Multiplus as well.
Thank you both for confirming. First thought was, there is something missing 😄
Why do you not just run the AC over the top of the inverter. Keep the DC connection as short as possible and then run the AC up over the top of the inverter to the roof. No crossing!
Wait, that's a brilliant idea😂
@@OffGridGarageAustralia lol commented it before you pulled option C out right at the end of the video
That's what was saying piggy backing inverters only makes sense with different incompatible batteries like 2 sets of lead acid one being SLA 200AH and another AGM 330AH you don't want to mix the lower with higher as it will make the 330AH the lower denominator (200AH) . But running inverters off those and piggy backing you can continue to feed the load to avoid too much depth of discharge on both sets.
Also looking at some LiFePo batteries as 12V (supposed drop in for ones car/4wd battery) but some of them are saying you can't run in parallel or series or very limited connection (3 in either or 2 in either) - that's due to its internal BMS?
There is no issue running multiple inverters from the same battery, regardless if they are standalone or in parallel or in series. Lead acid batteries is a total no go for these projects though. Old tech and not worth buying any more.
Hi Andy, and thank you again for your videos, I watched all your videos from the beginning, it's funny, and interresting...
About the passages of your cables, I personally will pass all the cables behind your aluminum sheet, you are lucky to have a configuration with double panels, yes it will give you much more work, passage holes, but I'm sure that the final result will be very clean, we will hardly see any cables. it's my opinion, you alone will make the final decision. good continuation Andy.
Thank you for watching all my videos. That's a lot of content. Behind the panel will be the cleanest installation and best look, yes.
AC can go up above the inverters and avoid crossing DC. It'll add a bit more length to the wire but that's not as much of a concern with AC.
Edit: I should watch to the end before commenting lol - Go with option C!
Thought the same. C! 3 x 6mm^2 does not need much space.
Always watch until the end 😂😂😂
Thanks Andy, I was thinking the C option but there will be a lot of heat above the inverters. So punching holes (a lot more work) but would look neat.
Also why the 6mm cable 4mm is good for 32 amp, I wouldn't go out and buy 4mm if you have 6mm on hand though.
The old inverter did not blow out a lot of heat actually. There is still around 100mm space above the inverter.... I'll measure again tomorrow
Why don't you put the ac switch boxes under each inverter, and the output cables will be in the horizontal beam? Cheers
I need the space for the DC cables and the isolator under the inverter. The switchboard won't be in the middle but further to the left of I install it there. That's does not look great.
Hi Andy, now after 2 years, how is the the negative bus bar on the inverter doing? I 'm switching to Victron and I have the same worries. Schöne grüße aus Patagonien.
I was thinking option C before you added it as an option!
Hi Andy, always good to watch someone else struggle with equipment and wiring positioning! Your 6mm SRF has a Thermo Plastic Sheath which is not classified as double insulated, as such it should have and extra barrier between it and any DC or data cable...
Great, thanks for the information.
Hi Andy ! Would be cleaner to punch holes for all your AC ! Cheers !
If the popular option C isnt possible a variation to the 90degree crossing would be in duct stacked 2 deep but offset for access,so you still have your ac and dc separation. The crossing of cable is still enclosed in duct and cable dives from the bottom stack to the top stack when crossing is required. Bit more complicated than C though.
Best wishes, keep up the good work
Thanks Rob. An interesting thought...
Option C. Put as high above Inverters as you can for heat purposes. AC you can have longer runs but keep your DC as short as possible.
Yes, that's a good point.
Very entertaining and informative at the same time as per usual. Thank you for teaching us Andy. 👊🏾🇬🇧🇯🇲
Great, thank you!
Your videos are educational but I have always watched them for the entertainment.
Option C of course.
Thanks Johan!
I would keep dc on bottom going up to the inverters. Run ac on top of inverters loop the the left of them. Is that C? You don't want your ac intermingled with your dc in the same conduit.
They won't run in the same conduit ever, just crossing.
But yeah, that is C 😉
Hi Andy, ich würde deine Option C nehmen. Die AC Kabel nach oben zu verlegen und dann dort nach rechts zu führen, ist denke ich eine saubere und einfache Lösung 😄
Option C. Without doubt.
I thought of option c before you added c as an option in your video.
Option C always. All DC conduit run at bottom. All AC conduit run at top of instalation. If you need to run DC from top do it from left/right side of instalation not the middle. If need AC from ground run from right/left side oposite of previous.
Your video ideas are amazing Andy thanks for the laugh with the hanging. Appreciate you
Thanks Luke, Glad you enjoyed it. The topic is so dry otherwise I have to spice it up a bit from time to time.
@2:38. I will never be able to unsee that.
Hahaha, I know! 😂
I think C would be the cleanest. DC comes up from the batteries, AC drops down to the inverters, That was my initial thought before you outlined the 3 choices.
Andy, why not run the AC up over the top of the inverters?
Did you watch the video 😄
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Sorry, I replied before I got thru the whole video. I do watch to the end on all of them. Love your frequent post scripts :)
hi Andy, DC cable shortest possible way, AC go up and around the inverters.
I read somewhere/heared never to switch the DC minus of the victron multiplus. DC minus have to be permanent connected to the battery.
Yes, negative will stay connected and we just switch positive.
That's a statement in all Multiplus-II/Quattro(-II) manuals!
Well, It seems that the more thermal and electromagnetic friendly route will be the Option A, so the inverters heat's don't warm up your AC cables and also you avoid any possible electromagnetic interference between AC and DC. Great installation, I hope you left a 1mm gap between plates to absorb thermal expansion produced by 60°C delta due to environment and induced heat from the inverters.
Thanks George. No gap between the panels. From previous experience, the panels won't get that warm. The air circulates nicely behind the outside wall and the aluminium, it does not get hot, just warm on some sunny days.
Hi, C klingt am schlüssigsten. Wäre kein Fan davon, Löcher in die Alu-Platten zu machen und da dann Kabel duchstecken. Sei es AC oder DC.
Die Kabel waeren alle im Schutzrohr hinter dem Alu. Aehnlich so wie es vorher war, halt nur fuer die AC Leitungen...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia ja gut. Dann spricht nichts dagegen. Muss man sich halt nur durchringen die schönen Platten zu durchlöchern 😁
Aber im Kanal mit Zugänglichkeit ist halt auch schön. Macht sicherlich was her. Gerade wenn man doch nochmal umbauen möchte. Da könnten größere Löcher an der falschen Stelle stören.
Aber egal wie, Du machst das sicher und sauber.
Grüße aus Halle bei Leipzig
I think C is the popular option. I was going to suggest this as well after I saw you present option A and B, but before I commented, I saw everyone saying C, so I figured I should watch the whole video before I comment, lol.
Hahaha, always watch until the end 😂
You are a hoot!
Loved your hanging technique to check your weight limits. Music was a bonus 50 points. 👍
Oh thank you!
Is the bar structural to the garage? ie remove for a couple of bays? or cut and put on front. just thought while typing, or cut holes in it and wire through?
Hi Andy for each of the inverters AC out can't you come down to a isolator +or not) then to the left, up and over the inverters making your routing of AC up and over the inverters? Just a thought.
Lol hadn't finished watching - yep your option C!
Thanks Nigel 😉
Why not run your AC cables left up above the inverters? Nice progress!
You should... watch... the... video 😚
Definitely option C. You will have a very good separation between AC and DC!
Hi Andy. The positive is not connected to the pcb, it comes directly from the power bridge. On your video around the 5.54 minute mark you can see it if you look through the grill.
Yes, thank you.
Hi Andy,
I'd say run the ac up and over the inverter as option 1, then option 2 is a new hole.
Use some prestic to stick some foam up to simulate what the trunking would look like if you go up and over.
The advantage of having ac from the top it would be a cleaner install with the ac distribution box, as they feed in from the top and output is at the bottom and the bottom just happens to be where your outside property ac Junction is.
But simulate it right at the top end of the aluminum plates and just above the inverters.
Noting that ac length of cable doesn't matter.
Thanks Wayne.
I was wondering about option C for most of the video. It would have been nice to have made that decision before hanging the inverters to allow space though. Unless you'll run a conduit along the underside of the roof, not fouling the hot air output (?) of the inverters (heat rises). Interested to see what you go with.
Go with C all the way
Thanks for the update
No matter what…. Cables will meet in some point. With your good design and double insulated cable there will be no problem in crossing in some points. A lot os installers use wire gutters and run everything inside them with no problem. Just instal everything in the front. This alternative is mor flexible for the future.
U finally convinced me to buy all Victron gear except the inverter I can't afford those but I have everything else even two of there charge controllers.
Your videos are such high quality editing and image quality. What camera are you using? Perhaps a tutorial on video editing?
Thank you very much Ian. I have a lot of info about this here: ua-cam.com/video/p1ni2N7mww0/v-deo.html
i'm a little confused as to the "issue" of crossing/not wanting to cross the wires... in my Schneider Power Distribution Panel, it's designed to have all wires (ac & dc) go through a 3" hole to the inverter and back. (LOTS of ac & dc playing together!) never had a problem or been an issue. also, i've seen 'professional' solar installers use big cable chases for both ac & dc wires together. is this *REALLY* an issue? i'm aware there are 'signal interference' issues running video/radio/audio cable next to power cables, but not ac next to dc...
im also voting for option C
I don't see any problem crossing the cables, I've manufactured high end amps with high voltage/Current on DC side and it is really complex to have that together with low distortion when a discrete pre-amp that is just a couple of cm from the high current pcb routes. If you put the cables side by side it could induce voltage between cables, but to just have a 90 degree crossover I cant see anything wrong with? a cool test could be to have this setup incl,. ac cable and connect high load to inverter so you pull i.e 50A through dc cable and look at the ac through an oscilloscope and see if it get deformed in any way while you move dc cable closer and closer to ac cable, my strong belief is no.
Thanks for sharing, Jonas. Great comment. I should really get an oscilloscope for these tests...
I’d say C buddy cable length is not as critical on ac current.
I think option C is best. I also recommend keeping the two AC outputs from the inverters at least a few inches apart, to prevent induction between the two sine waves which may be out of phase from each other.
They cannot be out of sync and should be 100% the same.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia they can be if you use them as two separate systems
If you are planning to someday extend your build to 3 Multipluses/Inverters, I would just use a proper sized duct with max. 50mm height (from the aluminium panels' perspective) under the Inverters horizontally to manage AC lines. Only problem with that would be the two screws holding the black cover from underneath.. Also I'd remove these round grey cable management thingys and go straight into the duct. If its not too late already you also could swap the MPPT panels with the Inverter panels in order have the shortest DC cables possible from your busbars (straight down into the battery compartment) as they will carry the highest current when the inverters are loaded with 5kW. For strain relief on the DC cables you could then use some M20 cable glands when going out of the bottom part of the duct. I don't think that DC and AC lines crossing in 90° angle will cause any problem.
It's super interesting to see your projects evolving, so please keep up the great work! While still getting enough sleep that is of course 😅
Thank you for your comment and thoughts. I considered swapping the MPPT and inverter side. In the manual of the Multi it says not to mount them above the batteries. I guess this is only for lead acid batteries though and the gases which could escape the batteries while charging. It would also be beneficial because the Multis don't need any maintenance in this hard to reach area... I consider all this for the next build. I promise 😉
If the inverter falls, it's probably still going to be attached to the wall when/if it does! 😜. Nice work!
😂
What about going up with the AC cable and go right above the inverter? (AC above, DC below and no punching!)
Oh, that's a great idea 😂
Was thinking over for AC before mentioning in video. So option C for me
Great content mate
Thanks, Drew.
Andy I would agree with you about the bus bar on the 48v battery input, you would think both terminals would be the same
Imagine a copper plane the size of the entire PCB. Now imagine (potentially) 2 of those planes. 2 massive copper "tabs" the size of the inverter. Probably 2mm thick each. This is likely to be what Victron has implemented in the design. Using vias tho bring the negative through to the surface where it is needed.
@@CollinBaillie Josh
1 hour ago
My 12-volt multiplus is built different it has two studs on a solid bus bar 2 studs each positive and negative
@@sjdtmv Is Josh's system Multiplus II, or just Multiplus? New revision without bus bar on negative, because "ground plains"? Josh's system is also 12-v. Andy's is 48v. Josh needs to pass 4x the amps for the same power from a 48v system.
@@sjdtmv Multiplus only went to 5KVA.
MultiPlus-II combines the functions of the MultiPlus and the MultiGrid.
It goes up to 10KVA. So it's a different design.
I had feedback from a few viewers here and per email, the PCB is what they have designed. Apparently a multi layer PCB.
Option C. Most AC distro panels have the AC coming in to a main breaker at the top. For US with split phase at least.
Why not go with ac cable to the left and up around the inverter?
You didn't watch the video, right? 😄
Yes I did, but commented before you told me about option c ;)
Cross at right angles, but run the AC hard up under the Invertor so it crosses the DC where it has to bend away from Al panel to enter the grommet into the Multiplus. AC is in Electrical conduit, DC is in its duct till it has to leap up to the grommets into the Multiplus.
That would be my design too, if I go this way. Thanks for sharing.
Andy, you can run the ac cable up the left side of the inverter then across the top. That would prevent the crossing with the dc cables
Uhmm... 😁
You are the man, go C go...
Was istvdenn wenn Du mit dem AC links der Inverter hoch gehst und über den Invertern nach rechts?
Lg Stefan
So, option C?
@@CollinBaillie ☺️ äh ja, jetzt verstanden..
😂
Option C is the best option for the AC side, it will look like artwork.
Happy calibration day!
I don't think there will be a problem crossing the SRF cable and the DC wires. The currents in the SRF cable should be balanced eliminating a common mode voltage so the electromagnetic field around the cable should be minimal. Having the 2 current carrying conductors so close to each other in the cable will also reduce any EM field. You can easily test this by mocking up an AC cable (running expected currents) crossing your DC wires (also running expected currents) and measuring any induced AC component on the DC wires with a multimeter set to AC V. If you do see some crosstalk there, try putting in a 6" square piece of sheet metal between the DC and AC conductors for shielding. See if it reduces the induced signal on the DC wires.
Thanks Gary, great thinking!
Definitely option C!! And as Michael pointed out, lowering the inverters will help them to breathe then.
Bombenfest!
PS: My vote is for Option C with AC wires above.
Can the AC go up and around and the DC go down below?
That's option C.
Yes on circuit boards, using various techniques you can handle lots of amps. 200a no worries.
Others have the same negative bus bar just as a PCB, so seems as per design.
Looks like those panels can hold up a whole keg! :D
😄
Option C is ok
Looks like C to me Andy, Why is it we spend days procrastinating about how were why etc, This is what takes me the longest in my projects as i have to see all options before i can move on lol
Yes, I never liked that decision making. It is so 'final'. In terms of final final...
while you discussed about A or B, I thought, there is a solution C, running AC up at the side of the inverters and on top of the inverters. AC cabling has lower currents and can be longer. The inverters can be lowered a bit. Greetings from the old world.
Danke Dir!
Option C for sure. All the work with sharp metal and your choice of footwear makes me nervous :) !
These are Australian safety boot, people told me..
Run a duct horizontally across the top and conduit from each inverter into bottom side of duct, a variation on Option “c”
Or punch hole in panel and run behind panel/inverter and come out inside duct running horizontally across the top for the A/C.
Option C, A or B only in case if you will need the place for other things.
Option C. Run the AC up the left side of the inverters and then over the top and back down to the breaker box.
I wanted to suggest option C, even before you introduced it. :)
I have two MultiPlus-II 48/5000 purchased for 6 months ago, and the minus terminal are also a PCB connector. I think it has to do that the MultiPlus-II is a cheaper version compered to the more robust multiplus version for marine use etc....
Thank you Dennis. There is a Quattro and a Multiplus. They are basically the same device except the Quattro has tow AC inputs. They also share the same PCB, technology and enclosure.
How about having a switch, where you can choose, either the piggy bank situation, or make them work independently in two different systems and choose when that happens. Not sure this makes sense.
That would not work as all the load is either connected to the Multi or has to be split up between the two. That cannot be realised with just a switch...