Jago, how could you miss the opportunity to say "Euston, we have a problem!" when discussing the timing mismatch and need to change trains at Old oak Common! 🤪
The biggest mistake is advertising this as High Speed Two. If they'd had advertised the whole thing as a West Coast Capacity Upgrade or something similar that focussed on more trains and more seats, I think there'd be a lot more support for it. Nobody cares about shaving time off a journey from Birmingham. They want a seat.
Yes, but wouldn't a capacity upgade just follow the curent route maybe with a new line added to the existing track bed. In fact that might have been a far better option than the current solution.
@@stevecox6416 I don’t think it’s as simple as that. It would mean adding it to an existing infrastructure which is already decades behind in terms of investment. It would also mean integrating it into the existing signalling systems. At least with the new route it’s built from scratch to it’s own spec. With the added benefit of a shorter journey time, although again, I wouldn’t have focussed on that in the way they have.
They’d have benefited from the Net Zero political mantra as well, by explaining (I know, that’s hard in politics) that it would assist moving more freight off the roads onto an electric railway. A bit like the old Paris - Lyon LGV route 40 odd years ago, which enhanced the freight capacity on the old PLM line.
"The general impression I get is that the government are hiding under the desk sobbing to themselves and hoping it goes away" The Jago quote of the day
Under the original scheme, it would have run to the East Midlands and Leeds as well, thus freeing space on the East Coast Main Line and the Midland Main Line as well as the West Coast Main Line.
@@hairyairey this is the problem in this country the government are so shortsighted, they were shortsighted in the 60's with the closure of thousands of miles rail lines and stations and they are doing it again
That's the clearest and most objective explanation of Old Oak that I've seen or heard. We all know what a s-shower HS2 has been turned into so it's nice to hear some facts.
Not putting the relief of the main line in the marketing was a big stumble. They should have learned from the very first high speed rail project - 'Shinkansen' is Japanese for 'new trunk line'. Not about the speed, but the capacity!
And the japanese government forced the people to use it by having toll roads on their motorway network, making it cheaper to use the bullet train, you can still drive across japan avoiding the tolls using little back streets but it takes a lot longer.
@@hairyairey I think most people care about cost more then time if its not that much which is another reason why HS2 is redundant, but I think it was just made to increase land prices along the route for sale to foreign investors, they could have upgraded other lines for far less improving everyones local services around the country at a time when there is increased use of online options like zoom and where the plane is cheaper then a train.
@@GreatSageSunWukong I disagree, they care more about getting a seat on the train when they travel. It seems to me you have never travelled on the WCML. Or read the business case for HS2. To upgrade the ECML, MML and WCML to the amount of extra capacity HS2 would have provided would have cost well in excess of the building of HS2. Mainly because all three pass through urban areas and that's even more expensive for land acquisition.
I frequently visited OOC in steam days. Never got thrown out, in fact some staff were more than happy to chat to me and the many trainspotters that seemed to be all over the depot. The passenger locos were often fairly clean in their green livery while the humble Pannier tanks were covered in grime. I remember one of them still had "GWR" on it's sides 11 or 12 years after nationalisation! Many fond memories. The new station probably won't be complete in my lifetime but I hope it brings back some of the excitement in train travel that I felt all those years ago.
@@LiamPennington Are you kidding? WCML is massively congested, especially in the morning peak. Network Rail prioritise passenger transport on it, there's effectively zero freight capacity during the day and no capability to do frequent stopping services due to the lack of line capacity.
@@LiamPennington You are massively misinformed if you believe that to be even remotely true. It's been at capacity for decades, even after the massive upgrade it had it was already at capacity which is why HS2 was even drawn up in the first place.
Years ago when the site was being redeveloped we found the long forgotten coal bunkers, great slabs of steam coal all over the place, the more we pulled up the more came up to the surface, at the time we lived on a boat and had a coal fire and that stuff lasted us for years. That area is now a mini park that runs by the side of the Grand union canal, you can still see the coal in the ground.
Suspect that the government don’t care if the Euston to Old Oak Common extension gets built. The private finance line just gives them a plausible excuse.
Their current plan is to screw over any potential expansion at Euston without having to buy all the land around it back at MASSIVELY inflated prices, because they sold it all off to housing developers. Euston is already in desperate need of expansion even before HS2 was supposed to terminate there. TfL had to pick up the bill to even cover what's being done to it right now because they massively scaled back the plans for HS2. This government just hate any kind of public infrastructure. They haven't built a single large scale project since coming in to power, the ones that have been finished on their watch were put in to law by the last Labour government like Crossrail, the 2012 Olympics and even HS2.
@@TalesOfWar Alas, the narrative of "tight purse strings" has seeped enough into the papers that even if another party comes in they now have excuses to walk back any major projects they planned or manifestoed using the same tricks. Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss.....
@@Del_S The thing is, with the state this lot have left the country in the next government won't be lying when they say we have no money left. That's one of the reasons Labour aren't comitting to some things we'd love to see them commit to or have walked things back, because they haven't seen just how bad things have become. Like HS2. We'd love to hear them say they're going to build it, but given how bad the finances are and how the Tories have already sold off vast swathes of land it would be built on for pennies on the pound to salt the Earth they can't really say one way or another.
All the tories care about is land value, all the god awful tower blocks going up around this thing which londoners can not afford gets advertised first in China and the middle east as "investment" properties with a guaranteed profit if you sell them after the new HS2 is built, its just yet another scam, we call these kinds of flats s**tboxes, they build massive towers on a small footprint with shoddy materials, normally built to last about 10 years before they start falling apart, inside they will small 1 to 3 bedroom flats that they have bought some fancy fittings for, like kitchen taps with LED lights in them that kind of guff to make them look fancy, then they charge 700k+ for them, try to shift as many as they can but they don't need to sell them all, they end up with profit if they sell like 20% of them, then they run off and do it all over again, oh and the service charges don't forget the service charges £200+ a month for the management companies to "maintain" the buildings and pay the concierge service on the door, foreign investors like buying property in buildings that have a 24/7 receptionist/security guard to protect their "investment" (empty property portfolio) from squatters. its an absolute ticking timebomb, and no doubt ministers have stocks and shares in these property developers.
HS2 is now a Frankenstein's monster of a railway. It's purpose and value has been completely lost and I seriously doubt it will ever get to Euston. I foresee that Old Oak Common will be mostly empty for its lifetime which I expect will be very short. Why would you ride HS2 from Birmingham to Old Oak Common when you can get direct trains straight to London? Why would you go via Old Oak Common to Bristol or the Great Western Mainline when you can also get a direct train from Birmingham or Paddington and getting a HS2 train to Manchester will actually be slower than on the WCML because the HS2 trains do not tilt so they have to run slower than the Pendolinos and Voyagers on the WCML. As someone who was in favor of HS2 and high speed rail in the UK I'd have more respect for the government if they'd cancelled the whole thing but they're too gutless for that.
They should have started building HS2 from Leeds, and work down towards Birmingham. It was inevitable that anything north of Birmingham would have been cancelled.
There's no space at the existing Euston for a Leeds - Birmingham - Euston service. Euston station is key to the whole project. Unless you want to cancel some exisitng services to fit them in.
I'm going to suggest to Rishi a cunning plan based on railway history: just rename Old Oak Common station to be "Euston Road". There's plenty of examples of "XYZ Road" being nowhere near XYZ butrailway companies wanting people to think it was. If it was good enough for Victorians in the Golden Age....
Old Oak common would be so much more useful if they tied it into the 5 other railway and underground lines that are very close by. Maybe they will build satellite platforms with travellators to the main station hub in the future so that it can become more beneficial for folks in North and West London.
I don't see how Old Oak Common will be useful why would you change there when you can get a direct train to where you want to go? It's simply adding more journey time for no reason.
@@kityhawk2000 The fast(er) trains to Birmingham will no longer run from Euston. So you'll be left with Old Oak Common or a direct train that stops dozens of times.
Great video Jago thank you. I think the reason that the public focus on the 'speed' rationale for HS2 is because that is the only tangible benefit that they can see, and for many extra freed up capacity isn't a benefit. More capacity on the WCML will be harder to see in action and harder for many to appreciate, especially when what it means in practice is the removal of some existing high-speed services on the WCML to be replaced by stoppers. Rumour has it that my home town of Lichfield will lose it's 2-or-3-times-a-day 'quick' service to Euston, but gain an extra 'slow' train per hour. So you can see how many see the only real tangible rationale of HS2 as speed. Personally, as a rail enthusiast I'm in favour of high-speed rail projects like HS2, but on balance when considering the cost of HS2 versus the benefits, the money would've been better spent reinvigorating local services outside of London (especially in the West Midlands where it is dire).
Fun fact: 'Battersea' used to have a station on the Overground. Well, I say Overground; It opened in 1863 and closed in 1940 and was located close to Clapham Junction - if you were heading towards what is now Imperial Wharf Station - just west of what's known as Latchmere 2 Junction. On Google Maps, it was roughly where the junction of Simpson Street, Gwynne Road and Battersea High Street is.
@@unclenogbad1509 Indeed. This original Battersea station was quite a distance from Queenstown Road. It would have been sited on the north side of the Badric Court Estate. Had it not closed in 1940, it would have been extremely handy for my mum and me when we used to go down to London, as my Aunt used to live in Badric Court, lol. Here's where I believe it was on Google Maps. There may even be a bricked-up entrance under the bridge! www.google.com/maps/@51.4715667,-0.1734401,141m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu
Not only should HS2 "go rogue" and build the link to Euston then go totally rogue and build both the Leeds & Manchester sections - then finish the job properly by heading north to Inverness (via Glasgow & Edinburgh).
And as they have 2 barely used TBMs, drill to St Pancras and/ or a 2nd tunnel to the continent so that the eastern extension to the Overground can stop at Rotterdam.😂
Capacity to Crewe is crucial for connectivity. Scrapping HS2 to Crewe makes no sense - especially as the DfT wants to nearly double rail freight on an already full intercity network...
@@Mark.Andrew.Pardoe Always the same with railways. Stations always seem to be in the middle of nowhere. Even Jago keeps telling us they would name stations "Anytown ROAD" to make it look they were in 'Anytown' when often they were miles away. Just think, OOC and Bickenhill will have more trains than anywhere else - but no one will want to get off there, just 'interchange'.
You mentioned Willesden Junction. Until the 1960's, Willesden Junction was a large interchange station with many mainline platforms and only a few hundred meters away from Old Oak Common.
With HS2 built and open, the capacity freed on the WCML allows the mainline platforms to go back and London Northwestern will then stop more trains to connect with the overground. That's not possible currently.
@@ADAMEDWARDS17 To be honest can't see why the mainline platforms couldn't have gone back long ago - or have never been taken out - for the outer suburban routes at least (including out to Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby etc). For the intercity expresses, Watford made a more useful interchange reaching a larger area.
As per your usual standard you have more information that people want to know than any b**********g politicians will ever provide , a most excellent video sir . Merry Xmas to yourself and all your viewers.
I used to play rugby with GWR in Ealing over 30 years some of the guys l played with were from Bristol and used to work for GWR Railway before the railways were natinised
What the country needs is a Westminster gov. that values the railways and isn't looking for new ways to shaft the north. As recently reported robbing money from the Northern rail improvement fund to fix potholes in London.
High-speed rail is actively counterproductive to levelling up and would have been bad for the north, you should be happy the northern leg is cancelled. The TGV hasn't made France less dependent on Paris. An express train connection to London which skips all the intermediary provincial towns does nothing but turn the other city into a commuter village for London. HS2 doesn't bring investment north, it's a sap to drain it back down south.
@@Mark.Andrew.PardoeThe WCML is already near capacity, and although parts were once quad tracked, the extra pair of tracks were removed post-Beeching and have largely been built upon (Station car parks being a popular use of space, but also buildings) - so restoring the extra tracks would likely be very expensive and disruptive. One big problem is that even comparatively small projects outside London are repeatedly mothballed as they'd generate a far lower ROI than pretty much anything in London - and anything even remotely near the size and scale of Crossrail or the Thameslink Canal Tunnels would instantly be written off as too expensive. Ironically, in the 1940s-50s, several cities outside London were competitive with it in terms of population and industry (incomes in the West Midlands were 13% higher than London!), but successive governments viewed their growth as threatening and deliberately hobbled them (particularly the incoming Labour government of 1964) in the hope of rebalancing the economy towards poorer regions.
OOC is so well connected to much of Greater London and the South East Region, that unless your journey is almost within walking distance of Euston, there would be little advantage in travelling through Euston. However, it will mean that both the Elizabeth Line and London Overground will need to be upgraded.
That's what I thought. But it always depends on where you're coming from. Depending on that, it can be super inconvenient. Euston is probably easier to reach than OOC from a lot of places too. And even with the Euston extension, the integration of HS2 into Europe's high speed level is nothing more than a lame joke, as is now. I'd arrive on a Eurostar train and then have to walk to Euston or take a train to OOC. What kind of backwards thinking is this? Do these people think "oh people only want to go to London anyway, nobody is gonna just travel through here" or what's the idea here? But then again, direct trains to the north right now wouldn't be a problem in theory, but the UK's hardline isolationist politics prevent this.
@@jonistan9268 As an exercise in utility of HS2, I used journey planner to plan a route from Horsham to Birmingham. The first via Watford, the other via Farringdon and the Elizabeth line, Old Oak Common and HS2. The conclusion was that the extra connections required for HS2 would make Watford roughly the same journey time to Birmingham as HS2. Clearly, Horsham is not Crewe or York, but a quick check revealed that the same argument held true for most of area served by Southern and Thameslink. As a slight aside, it seems to me that the Chiltern Line is not used at the same capacity as the lines out of Victoria and London Bridge. The stopping trains are short in length, typically four carriages compared with twelve for many of the Southern and Thameslink trains. I don't understand why a line that runs parallel to HS2 for most of its length wasn't upgraded, if the 'real' reason for HS2 is capacity, not speed. The Chiltern Line also goes from city centre to city centre. My company has had some interactions with the rail industry, our experience is that is overburdened with regulations, all of which were useful at some point in time, but many of which are now obsolete. It came as no surprise to watch the cost of HS2 steadily climb.
The big mistake was calling it HS2 when the whole point was extra capacity (primarily for freight). So X-Cap would have been a better title (which you are welcome to use). And that's what's really unusual - politicians making mistakes. Who'd have thought it. As another has pointed out, we needed Mr Yerkes. Incisive as usual, thanks, Mr H. Simon T
When HS2 to Manchester was cancelled I was at a conference across the road from Euston Station and I said to my mates that in the end the only bit that will be built is Euston to Old Oak
Importantly for the Elizabeth Line, Old Oak Common will include several turn back sidings and will eliminate the troublesome reversal process at Paddington
The West London Line, North London line and the West Coast main line are not that far away either. Its all a bit of a missed opportunity that none of these are to be connected for now.
Well done Jago for another informative and entertaining video. A couple of things to say here: You are right about the government 'hiding under the desk'. However we have had governments on all sides doing this ever since I can remember. Railways aren't a vote winner in the way the NHS or Education are. Secondly, I was under the impression that the Elizabeth line will extend the Paddington terminators to and from Old Oak Common once that station is open.
Changing OOC from a through-run to a terminus isn't as simple as just blocking the ends of the platforms ... there will need to be far more complex track layouts approaching OOC so that trains can be routed into the available platforms (which will remain congested for longer and reduce capacity). Presumably there will need to be additional facilities for crews, passenger information and waiting facilities - all of the extra amenities that a terminus requires which a through-run doesn't. Have these additional requirements/costs been included in the new forecasts? My guess is no, because: 1. The line is going to Euston eventually, maybe, someday 2. This will become an additional cost blow-out the next Government can take responsibility for
You can just hear the Tories slamming a Labour Govt for "wasting money" on the HS2 line to Euston. They are not planning infrastructure, they are planning for a general election in 2029 when they hope to get back into power.
I guess that we in the north should be used to being robbed of railway innovation by now, despite all the money having been spent. In fairness though, we did get the use of some of the North of London Eurostar sets when they were on hire to GNER....
Bear in mind that one of the effects of a high-speed railway line is that new areas become within commuting distance. And this distance would most likely be to London. So it could be that it would become more attractive for businesses to move to London, because finding the workforce becomes less of a problem. Obviously, it works the other way around, too: a business might decide to settle somewhere close to HS2 because of the quick access to London. But to be honest, I haven't really looked into how commuters and businesses have reacted to the presence of high-speed rail in France and particularly Japan.
@@julieaylward7033Ihr 40 mins from Euston to Birmingham New Street, it takes 2 hours by Chiltern Railways from London Marelabone to Birmingham Snow Hill.
I really liked the way in which the line about the people in Westminster was delivered. I don't, however, like the way in which the people in Westminster deliver their line...
Thank you Jago - again a fabulously informative video. Living in Germany I had heard about Old Oak Common only from former publications on the original GWR - wasn't aware that OOC is to become a fourteen track (?!) passenger hub station. It will be interesting to see what we will think of it 50 years from now. Maybe we will end up with a second Canfranc in the Pyrenees 🤔?
That comment about hiding under the desks and sobbing rngs true another case of "well yes the. project is great for [people who love the NHS make my morning coffee and deliver my take away BUT what does 'big money say?"
The WCML would not have been so congested had Beeching not closed the GWR route to Merseyside via the West Midlands and Great Central route to Manchester via the East Midlands ... with ( in many cases) passengers expected to travel on the newly electrified WCML instead.
This very true, only one problem the old GWR did not run to Birmingham, So whilst your facts is correct, the GWR Would have been the new intercity services fully electricify running in and out of London to the East West Midlands had it not been closed by Beeching.
can you do a vid on the finances (they must make Yerkes seem like a bastion of economy) , I understand one problem was not the overall budget but the annual cash limit expenditure
i really wish they'd have decided on building Euston Cross allowing HS1 to connect to HS 2 From Stratford international to Old Oak common via Euston St pan and Kings X. it'd at least make the point of old oak a little bit more useful. on top of making is a major connection hub like Stratford too for west London. but one can dream...
Sexy station/connections. This is one of those "foot in the door" stations. They are building it for FUTURE connections. Easier to get approvals once this station is used.
I’m puzzled about what is going to happen to Euston (granted, I haven’t really looked into it). The station’s tube lines already seem dangerously congested
Whato all, It doesn't matter now as one of the best real ale and cider pubs in London has been destroyed in the name of this utterly foolish waste of money.
Nah they just blurt stuff out without bothering to check if it's possible, which is much more stupid than lying because at least lying relies on some well thought out strategy. They wanted to cut every bit of HS2 that wasn't already in the works, but it's as though none of them took the time to check that Euston's reconstruction was already happening and they've actually got no choice but to finish it.
There are proposals to move North Acton Tube station a few hundred yards east to meet the London Overground overbridge, creating and interchange between the two metros. If an escalator is sunk at the new location, then a short underground travellator can be built running under housing linking Old Oak Common, the Tube and the Overground. The connections from Old Oak Common would be even better then. There are too few Tube/Overground interchanges.
People living in and around Curzon Street in Birmingham will be very fortunate to have a convenient rail link to Old Oak Common (only five miles from Central London).
People don't live in and arround Curzon Street Station, Birmingham Curzon Street station like Birmingham New Street Station is in Birmingham City Centre and the line will run to London Euston
@@GreenJimll There are no people living near Curzon Street Station site, only the WCML route out of Birmingham New Street one side and he Birmingham Think Tank Museum and University campus on the other side
It's useless for people wanting to transit to the west of Birmingham as you have to walk a fair old distance to New Street, it only really made sense as a line if went to only the major destinations en-route ie Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow, Crewe etc. People who have to change at Birmingham wouldn't have used it and still wont so IMO it will barely free up any capacity by only going to Birmingham, complete white elephant thanks to penny pinching and people without a long term thought in their head.
@@baldytail I don't think you fully understand HS2, alltrains going from Birmingham to London, Manchester and Scotland from Birmingham will be operated by Avanti West Coast Railways a run from Birmingham Curzon Street station not Birmingham New Street Station, this station being serviced by X Country Trains from the North East and Scotland to Bournemouth and the South West, connection for these trains for HS2 services will be made at Birmingham Interchange where both Birmingham International on the New Street Line will be connected to the HS2 Station Birmingham Interchange by a driverless automated people mover, by Avanti West Coast moving most of it's services to the HS2 route, Birminghm New street will have it's capacity freed up for other services, not only that London to Manchester and Scotland services will use the HS2 line as far as Handsacre where they will join the existing West Coast Main line to Scotland, Liverpool and Manchester via the existing WCML. Simples.So no HS2 is not just going to Birmingham.
They will still depart from Paddington. Old Oak Common will just be a stop on the way, much as Clapham Junction is a stop for trains out of Waterloo and Victoria.
I don't care how much it costs just finish it, including the original plan to go "Oop North" and even though I'll never use it, at least it will be more gain for everyone than it is now.
I'm sure the priginal plan was to link up with HS1 and thus provide a route to the Continent for cities other than London. Reducing transport dependence on London was key. The moment that connection to HS1 was cancelled, planners have struggled to articulate *what* purpose HS2 might serve.
That was really predicated on the UK remaining in the EU. As it stands the border checks make an international service from anywhere but London impractical.
@@MrAronymous Yes, but they could have been far more streamlined, probably done on the train by an onboard border guard. When we were in the EU it was basically an identity check.
Not at all. As explained in the video, the main purpose of HS2 has always been adding capacity to the existing main lines, in particular the West Coast Mainline. A new line dedicated to the long distance services was the most cost effective solution and with far less negative impact on operations and passengers during construction. But everyone got too distracted with "fast train goes brrrrrr", you could never count on the media nor the tory governments to understand infrastructure projects and articulate them to the public.
I raised my eyebrows when Jago mentioned HX stopping at OOC. I doubt that'll happen. London Reconnections reckons HX is likely to die a slow death anyway thanks to competition from the Elizabeth Line which now provides direct connections to the West End, City and Canary Wharf without any need to change trains and struggle down escalators, and with cheaper fares too, even if it's a bit slower than HX between the airport and London Paddington.
@@desdemoor i’ve taken the Heathrow Express a lot through the years. It costs a bit less if one buys the carnet of 12 tickets. Having said that, I’ve read that it’s the most expensive train ride in the world by mile. I’m not sure if that’s correct, but it wouldn’t surprise me. I’ve spoken to HX staff, and they've told me of the competition they’re getting from the Elizabeth Line. However, the HX trains have been pretty much full when I’ve been on them.
Jago, your comment that Euston is needed for city centre to city centre travel; Euston is not city centre. Elizabeth line is. I can see a lot of people changing at OOC precisely because they want to get to the city centre quickly.
33% of passengers are expected to change at OOC. But therre still needs to be somewhere vaguely central in London for the trains to end up. Euston is 10 mins walk from St Pancras and Crossrail 2 will link the two stations together (like Moorgate and Liverpool Street).
It's like a re imagined Great Central, or would be if it hadn't been cut back. The sound effect at 3:55 caught me so unawares. It cracked me up. Shades of The Goon Shows.
To be fair, whether the Euston extension goes ahead or not, OOC is quite the station. Very impressive. I like the "just go rogue and build it anyway" approach. I just find it sad that its not going to be the project it set out to be. So, as someone with more finger on the pulse than I, and assuming that its to relieve the WCML, if I want to go to Glasgow in future, do I take a train from Euston along the old route or do I take the HS2 to Birmingham and change? How will it link up in Birmingham?
The Birmingham station will be another giant entity with seven platforms - even though the current plans are for a mere three trains per hour. The Moor Street entrance will be right next door to Moor Street Station and a 5-10 minute walk away from New Street Station (having to cross a couple of busy roads and walk through a tunnel to get there). If you want onward rail travel, it's probably easier to alight at the other intermediate station, Birmingham Interchange (at Arden Cross, Solihull - just the other side of the M42 to Resorts World, the NEC, Birmingham International station and Birmingham Airport - with a very light rail "people mover" shuffling between the locations). I'm intrigued about OOC opening in 2026, given HS2 isn't due to open until 2029 (so given future governments likely won't be able to resist meddling in the project again, make that the mid 2030s...)
There will be trains from OOC to Manchester and probably Liverpool, possibly even direct (no change) to Glasgow. The end of the new line is near Lichfield, by which time you've passed Brum. Clearly the 250 km/h trains will be limited to 180 km/h on the WCML, but there we are. Unlike Jago, I don't see the point of tunnelling to Euston since whatever mode of transport you're using to get to Euston will take you just as easily to OOC.
@@1258-Eckhartit’s not about ease but capacity. If everyone is using just OOC to then interchange it will put pressure on some already stretched lines like the Elizabeth so it makes more sense to tunnel to an expanded Euston to diffuse some of that.
Richy Sunk (yes, my autocorrect did it too!) doesn't need trains. He travels around the country by helicopter, courtesy of the RAF and paid for by the tax payer. Jago, you ought to make a video about Network North and how it's spending £230mn diverted from the northern leg of HS2 on filling potholes in London
Hopefully they can also finance/fund and land-manage the way to Crewe (was Phase2a), since that will ensure all the branches can be built later. Maybe Crewe and Euston can be figured out at the same time since they are both similar existential issues ? Later northern HS2 branches and NPR can muddle through.
I hope this station is more successful than Stratford International (and Ebbsfleet and Ashford International). Yes builders, do go rogue and build the Euston tunnels and build the Manchester and Leeds sections while you're at it!
I gather they intend to lower the Euston-bound TBMs into the underground “box” at Old Oak Common, and entomb them there until such time as someone stumps up the cash to actually do the digging, on the basis that it won’t be feasible to get them in after the main part of the station is complete. They could be there a very long time.
They should put up a statue of Gertrude Stein outside the main entrance to Old Oak Common. She it was who said of her home town: 'When you get there, there's no there there'.
HS2 north of Brum is a farce. The extra freight capacity still depends on re-designing the junction between HS2 and a connection to part of the WCML at Handsacre, near Rugely, which is not yet decided or funded. HS2 is an expensive farce. Levelling-up, my left foot.
What most people don't realize is that this new station won't just have HS2, but also the Elizabeth Line and Overground. It's a game changer for this sleepy, residential and leafy area of West London that most people have never been to,
When you say leafy, do you refer to leaves squashed onto the rails or foliage attached to trees? I've passed through OOC more times than I care to count but the area round about has never struck me as a pleasant and green oasis. Are you sure you weren't hallucinating?
NOBODY is going to go to Old Oak Common, other than to change trains, and the fact that you now HAVE to go to OOC instead of just catching HS2 in Euston has significantly kneecapped the route. As Sunak planned.
@@dernwineYou could also say that the only reason you go to Heathrow is to catch a plane! For those people living to the west like me in Reading - getting to OOC to get a train to Brum will be a damn sight easier than travelling to Euston. Getting a Eurostar is really painful. All you hear are Londoners complaining that they will have to catch a train to OOC. They sound entitled!
Now merge this with the terminus issue. The line stops at Camden Town. From there, a spur was planned onto the North London Line, but seems obvious tunnelling under it to connect with HS1 resolves the issue.
It's the relaxation of planning laws around Euston. With the relaxation of planning laws, much taller and more dense housing can be built, and the property being built can avoid having to meet affordable housing requirements.
I heard HS2 hasn't gone overbudget, and that it's still within its allowances. It's just that the budget has gone from extremely rough back of the napkin maths that is so much of a guess it's basically a lie to call it a budget (£36bn) to real life actuality (£70bn, but will increase due to gov mismanagement). It also has agreements with many contractors so that if things go over the budget on their end, they have to pay the difference. This comes at the cost of a higher price to account for this risk, though.
When I heard "Old Oak Common station" I thought "why build a station in the middle of nowhere?" (Brent Cross West, anyone?). And wouldn't you know, Jago produces a video to address that question. So there is still life in the infrastructure phrase "build it, and they will come".
I wonder what Isambard K Brunel would have thought, I’m mean he decided to build a railway from London to Bristol. So he built it, did he go through all the heart ache that HS2 is gong through. And by the way, I agree with everything you said.
I still think that scrapping HS2 going North is a total disgrace and HS2 would have gone all the way to Manchester, Leeds and North of England. But now it’s going as far as Birmingham Curzon Street. At least that Old Oak Common station is currently under construction. And as what you said will serve HS2, National Rail, Elizabeth Line and London Overground.
Another incisive commentary. Excellent. I agree with everything you say about HS2 and the pantywasters in government. They can’t find their own bums with their own hands without a map.
Excellent video as usual, Jago. Thank you also for two things. Firstly, telling it like it is about the REAL reason for HS2. It has NEVER really been about getting to London 20 minutes quicker. For a start off, you'll lose that time, queuing for a cab or a bus at Euston anyway and after that, it would probably have been cheaper and easier to move the rest of Britain twenty minutes nearer London. Lol. It's ALWAYS been about CAPACITY!! When I'm describing it to anyone that's not really into trains apart from when they need to actually get on one, I usually say... It's the M6 Toll for trains. That usually sorts it. Secondly, thank you for putting some actual 'meat on the bones' as it were, as when I was told it's ending at OOC, I was appalled. That's the middle of k'all. But obviously, they are going to.'tart' it all up a bit. Quite a hellova bit, it would seem!! Hopefully, eventually, it's going to Euston, also hopefully with a reclaimed and restored Doric Arch!! However, did anyone else notice the shape of a large part of the roof at 3.45 in? Looked like a dirty great coffin to me. Is that the architects making a political statement to the government perhaps? Just a thought!! Lol. Cheers.
the biggest folly was not linking p to HS1 ... i cant see the demand to go from old oak to brum .. ( i used to spend many an hour in old oak ... on the turntable ... via the wonderful " door " in the fence from the canal ... going to wilsdon ... they wre always snobby there .. old oak was so huge they were fine... as long as you behaved yourself
Jago, how could you miss the opportunity to say "Euston, we have a problem!" when discussing the timing mismatch and need to change trains at Old oak Common! 🤪
"Euston" we don't have a problem any more s the Government has now given the go ahead to build the new HS2 station at Euston
The biggest mistake is advertising this as High Speed Two. If they'd had advertised the whole thing as a West Coast Capacity Upgrade or something similar that focussed on more trains and more seats, I think there'd be a lot more support for it. Nobody cares about shaving time off a journey from Birmingham. They want a seat.
Yes, but wouldn't a capacity upgade just follow the curent route maybe with a new line added to the existing track bed. In fact that might have been a far better option than the current solution.
@@stevecox6416 I don’t think it’s as simple as that. It would mean adding it to an existing infrastructure which is already decades behind in terms of investment. It would also mean integrating it into the existing signalling systems. At least with the new route it’s built from scratch to it’s own spec. With the added benefit of a shorter journey time, although again, I wouldn’t have focussed on that in the way they have.
Wasn't there an easier and cheaper way to relieve pressure on the WCML?
no, every plan was look at. @@davidpeters6536
They’d have benefited from the Net Zero political mantra as well, by explaining (I know, that’s hard in politics) that it would assist moving more freight off the roads onto an electric railway. A bit like the old Paris - Lyon LGV route 40 odd years ago, which enhanced the freight capacity on the old PLM line.
"The general impression I get is that the government are hiding under the desk sobbing to themselves and hoping it goes away"
The Jago quote of the day
Love that comment myself, still I guess as far as the current government is concerned it WILL all go away at the next general election.
Oh yes! Made me LOL.
Under the original scheme, it would have run to the East Midlands and Leeds as well, thus freeing space on the East Coast Main Line and the Midland Main Line as well as the West Coast Main Line.
Spare capacity for all that freight that in the day has to wait on side tracks and otherwise, run at night.
Under the original scheme it would have had a point. Now Sunak is just funneling all the money to his autolobby friends.
@@dernwinevery probably. Incredibly short-sighted decision that really diminished this country in the eyes of the world.
@@hairyairey this is the problem in this country the government are so shortsighted, they were shortsighted in the 60's with the closure of thousands of miles rail lines and stations and they are doing it again
Shades of the old Great Central perhaps.
That's the clearest and most objective explanation of Old Oak that I've seen or heard. We all know what a s-shower HS2 has been turned into so it's nice to hear some facts.
Not putting the relief of the main line in the marketing was a big stumble. They should have learned from the very first high speed rail project - 'Shinkansen' is Japanese for 'new trunk line'. Not about the speed, but the capacity!
It's there in the business case. It seems there was no-one from the government willing to remind the media of that.
And the japanese government forced the people to use it by having toll roads on their motorway network, making it cheaper to use the bullet train, you can still drive across japan avoiding the tolls using little back streets but it takes a lot longer.
@@GreatSageSunWukong toll roads are not an uncommon method of funding roads. Even paying the tolls you still aren't getting there as fast as the 🚅.
@@hairyairey I think most people care about cost more then time if its not that much which is another reason why HS2 is redundant, but I think it was just made to increase land prices along the route for sale to foreign investors, they could have upgraded other lines for far less improving everyones local services around the country at a time when there is increased use of online options like zoom and where the plane is cheaper then a train.
@@GreatSageSunWukong I disagree, they care more about getting a seat on the train when they travel. It seems to me you have never travelled on the WCML. Or read the business case for HS2.
To upgrade the ECML, MML and WCML to the amount of extra capacity HS2 would have provided would have cost well in excess of the building of HS2. Mainly because all three pass through urban areas and that's even more expensive for land acquisition.
Aah, the nostalgic memories of the walk from Willesden Junction Station over the canal and into the loco yard and the turntable.
I live in the area and find it totally appropriate to get my own personal rail hub
I frequently visited OOC in steam days. Never got thrown out, in fact some staff were more than happy to chat to me and the many trainspotters that seemed to be all over the depot. The passenger locos were often fairly clean in their green livery while the humble Pannier tanks were covered in grime. I remember one of them still had "GWR" on it's sides 11 or 12 years after nationalisation! Many fond memories. The new station probably won't be complete in my lifetime but I hope it brings back some of the excitement in train travel that I felt all those years ago.
Freeing up space on the WCML is the aim which is conveniently forgotten or deliberately missed by opponents
Having the WCML was the excess capacity which was the Midland Region arguement for closing the Great Central (at great cost , and great loss)
The WCML is not congested. That's a lie from the London based rail establishment.
GC would have gone under the wires easily. Had a lot going for it whilst the MR was still quite antiquated by comparison. Oh well...
@@LiamPennington Are you kidding? WCML is massively congested, especially in the morning peak. Network Rail prioritise passenger transport on it, there's effectively zero freight capacity during the day and no capability to do frequent stopping services due to the lack of line capacity.
@@LiamPennington You are massively misinformed if you believe that to be even remotely true. It's been at capacity for decades, even after the massive upgrade it had it was already at capacity which is why HS2 was even drawn up in the first place.
‘Hiding under a desk and sobbing’ - sums it up nicely!
Years ago when the site was being redeveloped we found the long forgotten coal bunkers, great slabs of steam coal all over the place, the more we pulled up the more came up to the surface, at the time we lived on a boat and had a coal fire and that stuff lasted us for years. That area is now a mini park that runs by the side of the Grand union canal, you can still see the coal in the ground.
It’s been one of those days here in Germany, and was an absolute pleasure to come home and hear the voice of reason.
Thank you Jago!
Tell me about your day…
Well, we didn't have a train strike, so it can't have been that. @@wjekat
@@wjekat well it was all about contractual disputes with building contractors for a project in Germany. Just a run of the mill triviality.
@@wjekat train strikes are of no interest to me really. But nevertheless it was a hard day in Germany
Suspect that the government don’t care if the Euston to Old Oak Common extension gets built. The private finance line just gives them a plausible excuse.
Their current plan is to screw over any potential expansion at Euston without having to buy all the land around it back at MASSIVELY inflated prices, because they sold it all off to housing developers. Euston is already in desperate need of expansion even before HS2 was supposed to terminate there. TfL had to pick up the bill to even cover what's being done to it right now because they massively scaled back the plans for HS2. This government just hate any kind of public infrastructure. They haven't built a single large scale project since coming in to power, the ones that have been finished on their watch were put in to law by the last Labour government like Crossrail, the 2012 Olympics and even HS2.
@@TalesOfWar Alas, the narrative of "tight purse strings" has seeped enough into the papers that even if another party comes in they now have excuses to walk back any major projects they planned or manifestoed using the same tricks. Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss.....
@@Del_S The thing is, with the state this lot have left the country in the next government won't be lying when they say we have no money left. That's one of the reasons Labour aren't comitting to some things we'd love to see them commit to or have walked things back, because they haven't seen just how bad things have become. Like HS2. We'd love to hear them say they're going to build it, but given how bad the finances are and how the Tories have already sold off vast swathes of land it would be built on for pennies on the pound to salt the Earth they can't really say one way or another.
All the tories care about is land value, all the god awful tower blocks going up around this thing which londoners can not afford gets advertised first in China and the middle east as "investment" properties with a guaranteed profit if you sell them after the new HS2 is built, its just yet another scam, we call these kinds of flats s**tboxes, they build massive towers on a small footprint with shoddy materials, normally built to last about 10 years before they start falling apart, inside they will small 1 to 3 bedroom flats that they have bought some fancy fittings for, like kitchen taps with LED lights in them that kind of guff to make them look fancy, then they charge 700k+ for them, try to shift as many as they can but they don't need to sell them all, they end up with profit if they sell like 20% of them, then they run off and do it all over again, oh and the service charges don't forget the service charges £200+ a month for the management companies to "maintain" the buildings and pay the concierge service on the door, foreign investors like buying property in buildings that have a 24/7 receptionist/security guard to protect their "investment" (empty property portfolio) from squatters. its an absolute ticking timebomb, and no doubt ministers have stocks and shares in these property developers.
HS2 is now a Frankenstein's monster of a railway. It's purpose and value has been completely lost and I seriously doubt it will ever get to Euston. I foresee that Old Oak Common will be mostly empty for its lifetime which I expect will be very short. Why would you ride HS2 from Birmingham to Old Oak Common when you can get direct trains straight to London? Why would you go via Old Oak Common to Bristol or the Great Western Mainline when you can also get a direct train from Birmingham or Paddington and getting a HS2 train to Manchester will actually be slower than on the WCML because the HS2 trains do not tilt so they have to run slower than the Pendolinos and Voyagers on the WCML. As someone who was in favor of HS2 and high speed rail in the UK I'd have more respect for the government if they'd cancelled the whole thing but they're too gutless for that.
They should have started building HS2 from Leeds, and work down towards Birmingham. It was inevitable that anything north of Birmingham would have been cancelled.
There's no space at the existing Euston for a Leeds - Birmingham - Euston service. Euston station is key to the whole project. Unless you want to cancel some exisitng services to fit them in.
@@ADAMEDWARDS17 true, but starting from the other end would have given time to rebuild Euston. It is by far the most awful terminus in London.
@@ADAMEDWARDS17well its not going to get to Euston anyway so that point it moot. Old Oak Common is going to be the biggest white elephant in London
Why Leeds? What would you want to make Leeds the hub for? What sense would that make?
@@stevem-h3562 it's called joining up your major cities. If you want more motorways, fine.
I'm going to suggest to Rishi a cunning plan based on railway history: just rename Old Oak Common station to be "Euston Road". There's plenty of examples of "XYZ Road" being nowhere near XYZ butrailway companies wanting people to think it was. If it was good enough for Victorians in the Golden Age....
I'd call it "London Road". Get out here if you want to go to London. Is it near central London? No, but who cares.
Old Oak common would be so much more useful if they tied it into the 5 other railway and underground lines that are very close by. Maybe they will build satellite platforms with travellators to the main station hub in the future so that it can become more beneficial for folks in North and West London.
Bit like Stratford
Yep there's so much going on around there it seems ridiculous that none of it is connected apart from the GWML
But that would inviolve the govt giving money to TfL to build the stations and they hate doing that.
I don't see how Old Oak Common will be useful why would you change there when you can get a direct train to where you want to go? It's simply adding more journey time for no reason.
@@kityhawk2000 The fast(er) trains to Birmingham will no longer run from Euston. So you'll be left with Old Oak Common or a direct train that stops dozens of times.
Great video Jago thank you.
I think the reason that the public focus on the 'speed' rationale for HS2 is because that is the only tangible benefit that they can see, and for many extra freed up capacity isn't a benefit. More capacity on the WCML will be harder to see in action and harder for many to appreciate, especially when what it means in practice is the removal of some existing high-speed services on the WCML to be replaced by stoppers. Rumour has it that my home town of Lichfield will lose it's 2-or-3-times-a-day 'quick' service to Euston, but gain an extra 'slow' train per hour.
So you can see how many see the only real tangible rationale of HS2 as speed. Personally, as a rail enthusiast I'm in favour of high-speed rail projects like HS2, but on balance when considering the cost of HS2 versus the benefits, the money would've been better spent reinvigorating local services outside of London (especially in the West Midlands where it is dire).
I think the reason the public focus on the speed aspect is because they know the H stands for High and the S stands for speed!!!!!
Fun fact: 'Battersea' used to have a station on the Overground. Well, I say Overground; It opened in 1863 and closed in 1940 and was located close to Clapham Junction - if you were heading towards what is now Imperial Wharf Station - just west of what's known as Latchmere 2 Junction.
On Google Maps, it was roughly where the junction of Simpson Street, Gwynne Road and Battersea High Street is.
Of course, there's Queenstown Road, but that may be why you put 'Battersea' in quotes.
@@unclenogbad1509 Indeed. This original Battersea station was quite a distance from Queenstown Road. It would have been sited on the north side of the Badric Court Estate.
Had it not closed in 1940, it would have been extremely handy for my mum and me when we used to go down to London, as my Aunt used to live in Badric Court, lol.
Here's where I believe it was on Google Maps. There may even be a bricked-up entrance under the bridge!
www.google.com/maps/@51.4715667,-0.1734401,141m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu
Technically it still does with the limited service to Battersea Park.
Not only should HS2 "go rogue" and build the link to Euston then go totally rogue and build both the Leeds & Manchester sections - then finish the job properly by heading north to Inverness (via Glasgow & Edinburgh).
Yes!
And as they have 2 barely used TBMs, drill to St Pancras and/ or a 2nd tunnel to the continent so that the eastern extension to the Overground can stop at Rotterdam.😂
Heck why not keep going and drill to Belfast...
guerrilla hsr construction
A different railway gauge.
@@darynvoss7883
Capacity to Crewe is crucial for connectivity. Scrapping HS2 to Crewe makes no sense - especially as the DfT wants to nearly double rail freight on an already full intercity network...
Whato all,
And Derby and Nottingham get a shared station in the middle of nowhere.
@@Mark.Andrew.Pardoe Always the same with railways. Stations always seem to be in the middle of nowhere. Even Jago keeps telling us they would name stations "Anytown ROAD" to make it look they were in 'Anytown' when often they were miles away. Just think, OOC and Bickenhill will have more trains than anywhere else - but no one will want to get off there, just 'interchange'.
Some of which they will need to put back, having ripped lines during the sixties and seventies, on all of the network.
Thanks for more future development updates, and Merry Christmas!
You mentioned Willesden Junction. Until the 1960's, Willesden Junction was a large interchange station with many mainline platforms and only a few hundred meters away from Old Oak Common.
With HS2 built and open, the capacity freed on the WCML allows the mainline platforms to go back and London Northwestern will then stop more trains to connect with the overground. That's not possible currently.
@@ADAMEDWARDS17 To be honest can't see why the mainline platforms couldn't have gone back long ago - or have never been taken out - for the outer suburban routes at least (including out to Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby etc). For the intercity expresses, Watford made a more useful interchange reaching a larger area.
Thank you for the sound effect at 3:55, I would have absolutely no idea what was going on if not for that lovely sound.
Old Oak Common is a half hour walk from my house.
Got a model of a GWR breakvan.
Remember when it was a train graveyard 20 plus years ago...
As per your usual standard you have more information that people want to know than any b**********g politicians will ever provide , a most excellent video sir . Merry Xmas to yourself and all your viewers.
Timely and informative. Thank you, Jago!
I used to play rugby with GWR in Ealing over 30 years some of the guys l played with were from Bristol and used to work for GWR Railway before the railways were natinised
What the country needs is a Westminster gov. that values the railways and isn't looking for new ways to shaft the north. As recently reported robbing money from the Northern rail improvement fund to fix potholes in London.
Whato all,
Yes the Government should value the railway; the railway it's already got instead of massively spending on flashy schemes.
@@Mark.Andrew.Pardoe Get back on your horse!
High-speed rail is actively counterproductive to levelling up and would have been bad for the north, you should be happy the northern leg is cancelled. The TGV hasn't made France less dependent on Paris. An express train connection to London which skips all the intermediary provincial towns does nothing but turn the other city into a commuter village for London. HS2 doesn't bring investment north, it's a sap to drain it back down south.
@@Mark.Andrew.PardoeThe WCML is already near capacity, and although parts were once quad tracked, the extra pair of tracks were removed post-Beeching and have largely been built upon (Station car parks being a popular use of space, but also buildings) - so restoring the extra tracks would likely be very expensive and disruptive.
One big problem is that even comparatively small projects outside London are repeatedly mothballed as they'd generate a far lower ROI than pretty much anything in London - and anything even remotely near the size and scale of Crossrail or the Thameslink Canal Tunnels would instantly be written off as too expensive.
Ironically, in the 1940s-50s, several cities outside London were competitive with it in terms of population and industry (incomes in the West Midlands were 13% higher than London!), but successive governments viewed their growth as threatening and deliberately hobbled them (particularly the incoming Labour government of 1964) in the hope of rebalancing the economy towards poorer regions.
What a load of cobblers and straight out of some lobby group talking points.@@kapparomeo
That day in 2017 when we queued for hours / miles to get into OOC, ahh lovely memories, lovely day
OOC is so well connected to much of Greater London and the South East Region, that unless your journey is almost within walking distance of Euston, there would be little advantage in travelling through Euston. However, it will mean that both the Elizabeth Line and London Overground will need to be upgraded.
That's what I thought. But it always depends on where you're coming from. Depending on that, it can be super inconvenient. Euston is probably easier to reach than OOC from a lot of places too. And even with the Euston extension, the integration of HS2 into Europe's high speed level is nothing more than a lame joke, as is now. I'd arrive on a Eurostar train and then have to walk to Euston or take a train to OOC. What kind of backwards thinking is this? Do these people think "oh people only want to go to London anyway, nobody is gonna just travel through here" or what's the idea here? But then again, direct trains to the north right now wouldn't be a problem in theory, but the UK's hardline isolationist politics prevent this.
@@jonistan9268 As an exercise in utility of HS2, I used journey planner to plan a route from Horsham to Birmingham. The first via Watford, the other via Farringdon and the Elizabeth line, Old Oak Common and HS2. The conclusion was that the extra connections required for HS2 would make Watford roughly the same journey time to Birmingham as HS2.
Clearly, Horsham is not Crewe or York, but a quick check revealed that the same argument held true for most of area served by Southern and Thameslink.
As a slight aside, it seems to me that the Chiltern Line is not used at the same capacity as the lines out of Victoria and London Bridge. The stopping trains are short in length, typically four carriages compared with twelve for many of the Southern and Thameslink trains. I don't understand why a line that runs parallel to HS2 for most of its length wasn't upgraded, if the 'real' reason for HS2 is capacity, not speed.
The Chiltern Line also goes from city centre to city centre.
My company has had some interactions with the rail industry, our experience is that is overburdened with regulations, all of which were useful at some point in time, but many of which are now obsolete. It came as no surprise to watch the cost of HS2 steadily climb.
Good evening all
The big mistake was calling it HS2 when the whole point was extra capacity (primarily for freight). So X-Cap would have been a better title (which you are welcome to use). And that's what's really unusual - politicians making mistakes. Who'd have thought it. As another has pointed out, we needed Mr Yerkes. Incisive as usual, thanks, Mr H. Simon T
When HS2 to Manchester was cancelled I was at a conference across the road from Euston Station and I said to my mates that in the end the only bit that will be built is Euston to Old Oak
Euston...we have a problem....with Old Oak Common taking over the original planned HS2 !!!
Importantly for the Elizabeth Line, Old Oak Common will include several turn back sidings and will eliminate the troublesome reversal process at Paddington
Jago is gradually building up his credibility as a future Minister of Transport!👏😊🚂 #JagoForTransportMinister
It's a pity Old Oak Common can't also be inserted into the Central and Bakerloo lines somehow.
There should be a Central Line interchange IMHO, it's very close. :o)
The West London Line, North London line and the West Coast main line are not that far away either. Its all a bit of a missed opportunity that none of these are to be connected for now.
@@PesmogI think missed opportunity is something you can use to describe the whole HS2 project
They missed extending the DLR up there.
Well done Jago for another informative and entertaining video.
A couple of things to say here:
You are right about the government 'hiding under the desk'. However we have had governments on all sides doing this ever since I can remember. Railways aren't a vote winner in the way the NHS or Education are.
Secondly, I was under the impression that the Elizabeth line will extend the Paddington terminators to and from Old Oak Common once that station is open.
Changing OOC from a through-run to a terminus isn't as simple as just blocking the ends of the platforms ... there will need to be far more complex track layouts approaching OOC so that trains can be routed into the available platforms (which will remain congested for longer and reduce capacity). Presumably there will need to be additional facilities for crews, passenger information and waiting facilities - all of the extra amenities that a terminus requires which a through-run doesn't.
Have these additional requirements/costs been included in the new forecasts? My guess is no, because:
1. The line is going to Euston eventually, maybe, someday
2. This will become an additional cost blow-out the next Government can take responsibility for
You can just hear the Tories slamming a Labour Govt for "wasting money" on the HS2 line to Euston. They are not planning infrastructure, they are planning for a general election in 2029 when they hope to get back into power.
I have my fingers crossed for the acton-northolt line to be reopened as overground going into OOC
Hello, good welcome and evening to you too!
I guess that we in the north should be used to being robbed of railway innovation by now, despite all the money having been spent. In fairness though, we did get the use of some of the North of London Eurostar sets when they were on hire to GNER....
Bear in mind that one of the effects of a high-speed railway line is that new areas become within commuting distance. And this distance would most likely be to London. So it could be that it would become more attractive for businesses to move to London, because finding the workforce becomes less of a problem.
Obviously, it works the other way around, too: a business might decide to settle somewhere close to HS2 because of the quick access to London. But to be honest, I haven't really looked into how commuters and businesses have reacted to the presence of high-speed rail in France and particularly Japan.
@@SeverityOne It currently takes around 2 hours to get to Kings Cross from here but it is also around 2 hours to Birmingham. Choices eh?
@@julieaylward7033 Where, roughly, would "here" be? I have trouble with the topography of my native Netherlands, let alone Britain. 🙂
@@SeverityOne West Yorkshire
@@julieaylward7033Ihr 40 mins from Euston to Birmingham New Street, it takes 2 hours by Chiltern Railways from London Marelabone to Birmingham Snow Hill.
Thank you for keeping me up to date, as I don't live in London anymore.
It always makes me think of Old Oak Ham.
Missed a golden opportunity to call this Old Old Oak Common and New Old Oak Common.
Thanks
And thank you!
If it was down to me, HS2 would be built in full and be part of my UERL empire, a name change for UERL might be needed.
Thanks Charles!
England's Extended Electrified Railways?
Underhand Electric Railways deLuxe?
I really liked the way in which the line about the people in Westminster was delivered. I don't, however, like the way in which the people in Westminster deliver their line...
Thank you Jago - again a fabulously informative video. Living in Germany I had heard about Old Oak Common only from former publications on the original GWR - wasn't aware that OOC is to become a fourteen track (?!) passenger hub station. It will be interesting to see what we will think of it 50 years from now. Maybe we will end up with a second Canfranc in the Pyrenees 🤔?
A second Canfranc? We already have the white elephant of Stratford (anything but) International!!
That comment about hiding under the desks and sobbing rngs true another case of "well yes the. project is great for [people who love the NHS make my morning coffee and deliver my take away BUT what does 'big money say?"
HS2 is an express intercity line aimed at getting big business to London. It does nothing for nurses or bakers.
The speed-freaks having gotten off HS2 at OOC are really going to want to walk the walk to Willesden to continue onto Euston
When I was mud I saw many famous locomotives at Old Oak Common lane,The City of Truro, was one there was also a crew hostel there
The WCML would not have been so congested had Beeching not closed the GWR route to Merseyside via the West Midlands and Great Central route to Manchester via the East Midlands ... with ( in many cases) passengers expected to travel on the newly electrified WCML instead.
This very true, only one problem the old GWR did not run to Birmingham, So whilst your facts is correct, the GWR Would have been the new intercity services fully electricify running in and out of London to the East West Midlands had it not been closed by Beeching.
@@scottpeacock5492 Scott, please investigate Birmingham Snow Hill station! Maybe also the New North Main Line, which at present lies fallow
I frequently bike through that area from Harlesden to North Acton and I never found the place plentiful enough to build such a massive station
I feel bad for the locals who will now have to deal with orders of magnitude more traffic because the area clearly isn't built to handle it.
they’ll get used to the convenience in the same way locals get used to living next door to other major transport locations
can you do a vid on the finances (they must make Yerkes seem like a bastion of economy) , I understand one problem was not the overall budget but the annual cash limit expenditure
Extending the Battersea branch a stop further to Clapham Junction will make the line more useful right
True.
i really wish they'd have decided on building Euston Cross allowing HS1 to connect to HS 2 From Stratford international to Old Oak common via Euston St pan and Kings X. it'd at least make the point of old oak a little bit more useful. on top of making is a major connection hub like Stratford too for west London. but one can dream...
Sexy station/connections. This is one of those "foot in the door" stations. They are building it for FUTURE connections. Easier to get approvals once this station is used.
I’m puzzled about what is going to happen to Euston (granted, I haven’t really looked into it). The station’s tube lines already seem dangerously congested
I'm not sure Sunak really knows either!
@ADAMEDWARDS17 does he know anything other than Rwanda ?
This video made it a lot easier to understand thanks Jago
Even after the announcment that the line would stop short of Euston I noticed the works continued. It's almost like the government lie...surely not?
Whato all,
It doesn't matter now as one of the best real ale and cider pubs in London has been destroyed in the name of this utterly foolish waste of money.
Nah they just blurt stuff out without bothering to check if it's possible, which is much more stupid than lying because at least lying relies on some well thought out strategy. They wanted to cut every bit of HS2 that wasn't already in the works, but it's as though none of them took the time to check that Euston's reconstruction was already happening and they've actually got no choice but to finish it.
There are proposals to move North Acton Tube station a few hundred yards east to meet the London Overground overbridge, creating and interchange between the two metros. If an escalator is sunk at the new location, then a short underground travellator can be built running under housing linking Old Oak Common, the Tube and the Overground.
The connections from Old Oak Common would be even better then.
There are too few Tube/Overground interchanges.
great idea
People living in and around Curzon Street in Birmingham will be very fortunate to have a convenient rail link to Old Oak Common (only five miles from Central London).
People don't live in and arround Curzon Street Station, Birmingham Curzon Street station like Birmingham New Street Station is in Birmingham City Centre and the line will run to London Euston
Considering much of the area around Curzon Street has been bulldozed by HS2 there aren't as many people living there as there used to be!
@@GreenJimll There are no people living near Curzon Street Station site, only the WCML route out of Birmingham New Street one side and he Birmingham Think Tank Museum and University campus on the other side
It's useless for people wanting to transit to the west of Birmingham as you have to walk a fair old distance to New Street, it only really made sense as a line if went to only the major destinations en-route ie Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow, Crewe etc. People who have to change at Birmingham wouldn't have used it and still wont so IMO it will barely free up any capacity by only going to Birmingham, complete white elephant thanks to penny pinching and people without a long term thought in their head.
@@baldytail I don't think you fully understand HS2, alltrains going from Birmingham to London, Manchester and Scotland from Birmingham will be operated by Avanti West Coast Railways a run from Birmingham Curzon Street station not Birmingham New Street Station, this station being serviced by X Country Trains from the North East and Scotland to Bournemouth and the South West, connection for these trains for HS2 services will be made at Birmingham Interchange where both Birmingham International on the New Street Line will be connected to the HS2 Station Birmingham Interchange by a driverless automated people mover, by Avanti West Coast moving most of it's services to the HS2 route, Birminghm New street will have it's capacity freed up for other services, not only that London to Manchester and Scotland services will use the HS2 line as far as Handsacre where they will join the existing West Coast Main line to Scotland, Liverpool and Manchester via the existing WCML. Simples.So no HS2 is not just going to Birmingham.
Will Paddington services whither if trains to Heathrow and Bristol etc. depart from Old Oak Common?
They will still depart from Paddington. Old Oak Common will just be a stop on the way, much as Clapham Junction is a stop for trains out of Waterloo and Victoria.
I don't care how much it costs just finish it, including the original plan to go "Oop North" and even though I'll never use it, at least it will be more gain for everyone than it is now.
It be interesting to see this station's progress in 6 months.
I'm sure the priginal plan was to link up with HS1 and thus provide a route to the Continent for cities other than London. Reducing transport dependence on London was key. The moment that connection to HS1 was cancelled, planners have struggled to articulate *what* purpose HS2 might serve.
That was really predicated on the UK remaining in the EU. As it stands the border checks make an international service from anywhere but London impractical.
@@Croz89 But the UK was already non-Schengen while in the EU? Border checks would have to be done anyway.
@@MrAronymous Yes, but they could have been far more streamlined, probably done on the train by an onboard border guard. When we were in the EU it was basically an identity check.
Not at all. As explained in the video, the main purpose of HS2 has always been adding capacity to the existing main lines, in particular the West Coast Mainline. A new line dedicated to the long distance services was the most cost effective solution and with far less negative impact on operations and passengers during construction. But everyone got too distracted with "fast train goes brrrrrr", you could never count on the media nor the tory governments to understand infrastructure projects and articulate them to the public.
As always, very informative.
So there will be Heathrow Express service to Old Oak Common? Will this be in addition to the current non-stop service between Heathrow and Paddington?
I raised my eyebrows when Jago mentioned HX stopping at OOC. I doubt that'll happen. London Reconnections reckons HX is likely to die a slow death anyway thanks to competition from the Elizabeth Line which now provides direct connections to the West End, City and Canary Wharf without any need to change trains and struggle down escalators, and with cheaper fares too, even if it's a bit slower than HX between the airport and London Paddington.
@@desdemoor i’ve taken the Heathrow Express a lot through the years. It costs a bit less if one buys the carnet of 12 tickets. Having said that, I’ve read that it’s the most expensive train ride in the world by mile. I’m not sure if that’s correct, but it wouldn’t surprise me. I’ve spoken to HX staff, and they've told me of the competition they’re getting from the Elizabeth Line. However, the HX trains have been pretty much full when I’ve been on them.
Jago, your comment that Euston is needed for city centre to city centre travel; Euston is not city centre. Elizabeth line is. I can see a lot of people changing at OOC precisely because they want to get to the city centre quickly.
33% of passengers are expected to change at OOC. But therre still needs to be somewhere vaguely central in London for the trains to end up. Euston is 10 mins walk from St Pancras and Crossrail 2 will link the two stations together (like Moorgate and Liverpool Street).
It's like a re imagined Great Central, or would be if it hadn't been cut back.
The sound effect at 3:55 caught me so unawares. It cracked me up. Shades of The Goon Shows.
To be fair, whether the Euston extension goes ahead or not, OOC is quite the station. Very impressive. I like the "just go rogue and build it anyway" approach. I just find it sad that its not going to be the project it set out to be.
So, as someone with more finger on the pulse than I, and assuming that its to relieve the WCML, if I want to go to Glasgow in future, do I take a train from Euston along the old route or do I take the HS2 to Birmingham and change? How will it link up in Birmingham?
It won't. Different stations in Brum. For anywhere north of Brum go from Euston, via Hinckley and Stafford, ie, the WCML.
The Birmingham station will be another giant entity with seven platforms - even though the current plans are for a mere three trains per hour. The Moor Street entrance will be right next door to Moor Street Station and a 5-10 minute walk away from New Street Station (having to cross a couple of busy roads and walk through a tunnel to get there). If you want onward rail travel, it's probably easier to alight at the other intermediate station, Birmingham Interchange (at Arden Cross, Solihull - just the other side of the M42 to Resorts World, the NEC, Birmingham International station and Birmingham Airport - with a very light rail "people mover" shuffling between the locations).
I'm intrigued about OOC opening in 2026, given HS2 isn't due to open until 2029 (so given future governments likely won't be able to resist meddling in the project again, make that the mid 2030s...)
Hopefully they will be smart when designing the trains and allow them to run on regular rail lines as well as HS2
There will be trains from OOC to Manchester and probably Liverpool, possibly even direct (no change) to Glasgow. The end of the new line is near Lichfield, by which time you've passed Brum. Clearly the 250 km/h trains will be limited to 180 km/h on the WCML, but there we are. Unlike Jago, I don't see the point of tunnelling to Euston since whatever mode of transport you're using to get to Euston will take you just as easily to OOC.
@@1258-Eckhartit’s not about ease but capacity. If everyone is using just OOC to then interchange it will put pressure on some already stretched lines like the Elizabeth so it makes more sense to tunnel to an expanded Euston to diffuse some of that.
3:38 If anyone wants to change his opinion, keep the Danish and the eclair ready.
I reckon Jago might be influenced by a Jammie Dodger 😊
Richy Sunk (yes, my autocorrect did it too!) doesn't need trains. He travels around the country by helicopter, courtesy of the RAF and paid for by the tax payer.
Jago, you ought to make a video about Network North and how it's spending £230mn diverted from the northern leg of HS2 on filling potholes in London
Network North ……… London
Hopefully they can also finance/fund and land-manage the way to Crewe (was Phase2a), since that will ensure all the branches can be built later. Maybe Crewe and Euston can be figured out at the same time since they are both similar existential issues ? Later northern HS2 branches and NPR can muddle through.
I hope this station is more successful than Stratford International (and Ebbsfleet and Ashford International). Yes builders, do go rogue and build the Euston tunnels and build the Manchester and Leeds sections while you're at it!
You omitted that Eurostar trains used to get parked there when Waterloo was the departure station.
I gather they intend to lower the Euston-bound TBMs into the underground “box” at Old Oak Common, and entomb them there until such time as someone stumps up the cash to actually do the digging, on the basis that it won’t be feasible to get them in after the main part of the station is complete. They could be there a very long time.
They should put up a statue of Gertrude Stein outside the main entrance to Old Oak Common. She it was who said of her home town: 'When you get there, there's no there there'.
In addition to the Euston extension, they should build the now cancelled HS1/HS2 link in Camden. Then the eurostar could run to Birmingham too
HS2 north of Brum is a farce. The extra freight capacity still depends on re-designing the junction between HS2 and a connection to part of the WCML at Handsacre, near Rugely, which is not yet decided or funded. HS2 is an expensive farce. Levelling-up, my left foot.
Fantastic video sir.
@2:02, oh joy. Another station with endless walking and many opportunities to miss the train. 😂😂😂
What most people don't realize is that this new station won't just have HS2, but also the Elizabeth Line and Overground. It's a game changer for this sleepy, residential and leafy area of West London that most people have never been to,
When you say leafy, do you refer to leaves squashed onto the rails or foliage attached to trees? I've passed through OOC more times than I care to count but the area round about has never struck me as a pleasant and green oasis. Are you sure you weren't hallucinating?
NOBODY is going to go to Old Oak Common, other than to change trains, and the fact that you now HAVE to go to OOC instead of just catching HS2 in Euston has significantly kneecapped the route. As Sunak planned.
Old Oak Common is better known as the site of Wormwood Scrubs prison...
As mentioned right from the very beginning of the video.
@@dernwineYou could also say that the only reason you go to Heathrow is to catch a plane! For those people living to the west like me in Reading - getting to OOC to get a train to Brum will be a damn sight easier than travelling to Euston. Getting a Eurostar is really painful. All you hear are Londoners complaining that they will have to catch a train to OOC. They sound entitled!
You didn't mention the throughput issue. If Old Oak Common is the terminus, then because of the fewer platforms, HS2 will have fewer trains per hour!
You should have mentioned that HS2 pinched a large area of Wormwood Scrubs.
Now merge this with the terminus issue. The line stops at Camden Town. From there, a spur was planned onto the North London Line, but seems obvious tunnelling under it to connect with HS1 resolves the issue.
It's the relaxation of planning laws around Euston. With the relaxation of planning laws, much taller and more dense housing can be built, and the property being built can avoid having to meet affordable housing requirements.
I heard HS2 hasn't gone overbudget, and that it's still within its allowances. It's just that the budget has gone from extremely rough back of the napkin maths that is so much of a guess it's basically a lie to call it a budget (£36bn) to real life actuality (£70bn, but will increase due to gov mismanagement). It also has agreements with many contractors so that if things go over the budget on their end, they have to pay the difference. This comes at the cost of a higher price to account for this risk, though.
When I heard "Old Oak Common station" I thought "why build a station in the middle of nowhere?" (Brent Cross West, anyone?). And wouldn't you know, Jago produces a video to address that question. So there is still life in the infrastructure phrase "build it, and they will come".
The Japanese made their Shinkansen plans fifty years ago, and from a recent article in response to the HS2 cancellations, "We stick to the plan."
I'm very hopeful that the Birmingham-OOC leg will open and be valued enough to inspire further development
I wonder what Isambard K Brunel would have thought, I’m mean he decided to build a railway from London to Bristol. So he built it, did he go through all the heart ache that HS2 is gong through. And by the way, I agree with everything you said.
Good one Jago 👍
I still think that scrapping HS2 going North is a total disgrace and HS2 would have gone all the way to Manchester, Leeds and North of England.
But now it’s going as far as Birmingham Curzon Street. At least that Old Oak Common station is currently under construction. And as what you said will serve HS2, National Rail, Elizabeth Line and London Overground.
No it is carrying on from Birmingham Interchange Station to Handsacre in Staffordshire where thhe HS2 line will connect on to the WCML
Another incisive commentary. Excellent. I agree with everything you say about HS2 and the pantywasters in government. They can’t find their own bums with their own hands without a map.
Oh that is just sooo good. Thank you. Simon T
Excellent video as usual, Jago.
Thank you also for two things.
Firstly, telling it like it is about the REAL reason for HS2.
It has NEVER really been about getting to London 20 minutes quicker.
For a start off, you'll lose that time, queuing for a cab or a bus at Euston anyway and after that, it would probably have been cheaper and easier to move the rest of Britain twenty minutes nearer London. Lol.
It's ALWAYS been about CAPACITY!!
When I'm describing it to anyone that's not really into trains apart from when they need to actually get on one, I usually say... It's the M6 Toll for trains.
That usually sorts it.
Secondly, thank you for putting some actual 'meat on the bones' as it were, as when I was told it's ending at OOC, I was appalled. That's the middle of k'all.
But obviously, they are going to.'tart' it all up a bit. Quite a hellova bit, it would seem!! Hopefully, eventually, it's going to Euston, also hopefully with a reclaimed and restored Doric Arch!!
However, did anyone else notice the shape of a large part of the roof at 3.45 in?
Looked like a dirty great coffin to me.
Is that the architects making a political statement to the government perhaps?
Just a thought!!
Lol.
Cheers.
the biggest folly was not linking p to HS1 ... i cant see the demand to go from old oak to brum .. ( i used to spend many an hour in old oak ... on the turntable ... via the wonderful " door " in the fence from the canal ... going to wilsdon ... they wre always snobby there .. old oak was so huge they were fine... as long as you behaved yourself
3:57 Tunnel-boring-machine noise; the British accent makes it! 👍