I got my Eagle Scout Award at age 13 because I wanted out of the program. I wasn't even given a choice whether I wanted to be a Boy Scout or not; it was simply compulsory. When leaders wanted me to continue earning merit badges and conducting scout troop meetings after I had become an Eagle Scout, I flatly said, "No!" That shocked them. "You must stay in the program!" they said, "You have to mentor the younger boys until you finish high school and start your mission! You just don't get out of the program once you earn Eagle!" I got angry and said, "The only reason I got Eagle was to be done with the program, to get the leaders off my back! I don't want to participate in another scouting activity ever again! You wanted me to get Eagle, and I got it! We're done!" They couldn't argue against that, so it ended there. It's one thing for a boy to want to join a troop and do things in the program. It's completely another thing to conscript the boy to do things in the program without even a courtesy of letting him have a say one way or another. And I wasn't sexually abused in the program. If I had it that bad while I was in it, then I cannot imagine what victims had to suffer through. I hope they get compensation for everything they had to go through.
You have every right to feel that way. The lack of consent is a heavy and painful thing, especially if everyone in your family and circle of friends expects you to do X because that is what they also did at that age and because they fell that "it's just how it goes around here".
Hi, please consider bringing Jennette McCurdy on the Mormon Stories. In her memoir she writes about her deconstruction of the LDS church. It would be so interesting to hear her story.
Something that does concern me if it goes to the U.S. Supreme Court is that BYU has had more graduates of its J. Reuben Clark Law School work as Clerks on the Supreme Court than any other Law School outside of Harvard or Yale. And all of those BYU Grads have worked for conservative justices. On the current Court Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Gorsuch and possibly Kavanaugh have all had BYU Grads work as Clerks under them. And it does worry me that they could easily rule in the Church's favor no matter what.
Your guest is an amazing human being. He is a legendary! He deserves so much respect and gratitude! Wow, if only the rest of the world could follow his lead. Thank you Sir!! 👍🙏💓
This attorney, Tim Kosnoff, is so clear, factual, and refreshing. Thank you. What a massive travesty and an example of a complete lack of honesty and courage by church leadership. As a mother, I was a Scout Leader in the 2000 era. I withdrew our small son and stood down as a Mormon Cub Leader and served in our Community Scout Troop. This is horrifying news...Thank you.
True, but I think Kosnoff also revealed how bad and disfigured the American justice system is. The statute of limitations for sexual abuse of children serves nothing but shield the abusers. The various privileges including lawyer-client and priest-penitent are pushed to their absurd extremes and are being gamed by big legal firms or institutions like the church. I'm no "sovereign citizens" type of person, but it is really hard to walk away from this interview without feeling like the US legal system is made to serve the rich and powerful only.
@person I found it very distracting at work also. This issue is of deep importance and disturbing almost mind blowing to me in spite of others who would say “that’s very unfortunate.”
Tough and important issues to discuss. Glad you are making these videos. Reporting of child abuse and rape cases in a lot of high-demand groups. Scientology is a good example, especially with the ongoing Danny Masterson serial rape trials.
So the church exercised enormous influence on the BSA to not adopt the Recognize Resist Report policy among other things to suit their agenda. This could mean that the church had a major role in BSA problems which resulted later where boys were abused and the eventual bankruptcy of the organization. This is shocking to us members and shameful for the church.
I got my Eagle when I was still 12, a month shy of 13. I was able to get started while in Webelos (somehow?) and with weekly focus plus two summer Scout Camps plus my parents, and despite the opposition of at least one BSA person because of my age, they awarded it to me. Mid-late 90s.
I got my eagle at 13. It was a ton of work, very stressful, family pressure etc. I started working on merit badges at 11. Went on three scout camps. Overall i loved the experience the values, outdoor experience etc. That being said it horrifies me to realize this dark side existed for all this time. Makes me angry again at this side of human nature. Thanks for your work Tim
It horrify's me too& it is not just In the LDS CHURCH. I, was. L. DS for 36 yrs& not always a very good one. A friend of mine said what happened in the Catholic Church would never happen in the LDS Church. Not only, was he wrong 13-14 yrs. ago when he said it in A MenS'. Meeting I, hope he remembers what he said to me. More importantly I, hope( like you say) These horrors are addressed& not just swept under the carpet####
And that makes it even more horrible. So many people had actual good experiences in the boyscouts, had fun and had amazing troop leaders. But in the end turns out these good people were working for a corrupt, evil organization. That must be hard: Someone who spent his whole life working as a boyscout leader with the best of intentions... and now has to hide in shame and fear that people will think he was in on the whole thing.
My Dad was converted through Scouts. The Bishop was his neighbor and invited him to be part of the troop, but he had to get baptized. He never actually believed but he was baptized to be part of the troop.
I agree that the BSA should be destroyed right along with every other organization and religious institution that is complicate in covering up and through their policies and negligence directly facilitating the continuation of these sickening crimes!
Except the BSA didn't cover these crimes, and was actually targeted by these attorneys after the laws changed on the statue of limitations through their internal perv list that they kept up with since the 1930's. The attorneys were able to locate troops with the pedophiles to develop clients. The BSA have had problems with pedophiles since the beginning. These pedophiles used not only the BSA, but any all youth programs. They also operate in all youth programs including religious programs, youth sports, after school programs, and public and private schools. They are predators. Sadly when the statue of limitations changed, public schools got an excemption from legal action from the accused. When the laws changed the attorneys knew that the BSA had a list and deep pockets, large endowments and tons of real estate. These other programs typically have little and didn't keep up with pedophiles. Most since now use the BSA program of barriers to abuse that is multi-tiered and although not perfect, is the best protection hands down. How come these pedophiles get away with their crimes? Because people let them. The average pedophile attacks up to 160 children before they are caught. They are not stranger danger. They will be great-looking pillars of the community. They will be trusted friends who would be the last person you would ever believe, and when some kids did accuse over the years, even at times with their own parents not believing them, if they could make complaint, many were not taken seriously by law enforcement because it was often the mayor, the police chief, the priest, the school's principle, and other people with power and respect. The culture existed in every organization, but BSA took each reported case seriously if reported, and they kept that list and checked each adult volunteer the best they could because once a pedophile got discovered, they often moved to a new town, in a new state, and would start over to gain everyone's trust and respect. And it still happens to this very day. A person, not always a man, gets caught and everyone is in disbelief that this really great person who was so great, turned out to be a pedophile. And when they caught and study these pedophiles, most were victims in their time. I don't think we have to end these programs like the BSA over this. issue, but protect children the best we can. When you tell people most pedophiles have moved into the public school space, they simply don't believe you. They still think these criminals are still going camping alone with youth. Which is not the case. Most scouting programs now have many adults going camping and going to all these programs in group of Two-Deep adults. Adults and scouts are taught about youth protection. If a pedophile exists now, it will be because the adults didn't take their training seriously. They fell for the great person can't hurt nobody kind of pedophile that operates secretly in their program. And that gray person doesn't need a youth program to operate. They can still be a family friend, a family member, a relative, a teacher, and neighbor. If you don't believe that, go look up a series called, 'To catch a Predator.' There we're about three seasons from ABC News that caught hundreds of pedophiles until it got too dangerous and actors and news personalities almost got killed. It made everyone realize that no town, anywhere in America is safe. Sadly so many parents are locking their children away, not even letting them play in the front yard anymore. A lot of these kids have no street skills, many are coming out not even being able to cook or clean for themselves, have little common sense and they are really messed up. Some are so confused they don't what century they live in or what even their gender is suppose to be. I wonder who is helping that confusion along? Maybe even encouraging and promoting? Are these attorneys out there saving your children from that? In short, those pedophiles are still out there waiting for your kids.
Do the math, that’s under $2,700. Per person for compensation… Just saying, the amount of money & wealth that corrupt organization has & what they’ve covered up, the lies, & lives they’ve impacted negatively is a disgrace!
@@mikecboss6120 Well that sounds like something more than nothing, I was going off standard dividing their lump sum by 85,500 people. Sadly like he said, that’s not even the real number. How about the woman that were told if they left their husbands they’d be doomed by same circumstances. I’m glad people are coming forward at least truth is coming out
Interesting point from John about the prestige of scouting within the church. In my ward growing up in Sandy, UT, there were around 20 of us who earned our eagle award at the same time. I grew up in a wealthy ward with connections and Thomas Monson who was the first counselor at the time came to speak and give us the awards at the court of honor. It was a HUGE deal for all of us as well and the ward and obviously to president Monson as he took the time to attend, speak and who proudly gave each of us our awards. I’ve certain there were never more people packed into the chapel and overflow for any meeting ever. It was PACKED. All the way onto the stage.
It’s only recently that the fees were actually paid by the church. In the recent past the fees were paid by the parents if possible and out of other people and there were meetings at the church to collect these fees.
You're talking about fees for participating in the BSA, right? Do you know how recently that changed? Because I'm in my late 20s and I _think_ I remember that we had to pay the fee ourselves. We definitely had to buy our own uniforms and such though.
The Famous Coffe spill at McDonalds. This woman was seriously injured by coffee so hot it burned through her clothes and she had to have skin grafts. McDonalds knew their coffee was dangerously hot and disregarded that fact. This is why the woman won; she had a case. This is mentioned a lot as is people who sue after a bus accident. My father died after he was in an accident on the bus and we got no money. Asking people to question assumptions regarding this idea of everybody is suing and getting vast riches. It is very difficult to sue and expensive too. Most people do not, even if they are wronged
In law in the UK we have a term “model litigant”, where government bodies have to do EVERYTHING possible to be the most ethical and above board party in a law suit. You’d think “Jesus law firm” would exercise the same level of consideration!
My husband grew up in a boys home and became an Eagle Scout in the BSA. He says he never heard of anyone being sexually abused, nor was he ever abused. I guess he was just lucky but he recalls it as an awesome experience ! It made him a leader in Future Farmers of America, he was the president of the State of Missouri FFA. Our three sons were in scouting and none of them were ever abused. Just putting in a good word about scouting.
I have a feeling where there was abuse in troops, there was lots of abuse. I grew up LDS in a ward with a very very good scouting program with very good men. I’m not saying it happened but I know they were very buttoned up and very deliberate to make sure to keep it from happening and I’m not aware of any incidents that happened. That being said, it’s sad that overall there clearly were so many cases and incidents of atrocious and life scarring abuse. I feel terrible and as an Eagle Scout myself, I’m disappointed in finding this out and outraged. Thanks to this man and others who are bringing this to light.
Meanwhile.. I was a Girl Scout in the early 60’s (from age 7-11). We had 2 local church ladies (Catholic) who ran our troop (#64😉). Meetings were held in one woman’s house, where we ALL knew to steer clear of her HUSBAND (and the parish priest too) or you might get uncomfortably grabbed!! The 2 ladies smoked cigarettes through the entire meeting AND drank scotch on the rocks! Actually, the meetings were held from 4-6 pm after school each week which WAS technically cocktail hour, so… 🥴. And now that I think about it, I started smoking at about 12 years old too! This is so interesting. I had no idea how LDS was intertwined with BSA NOR how influential they are. In the BSA AND the country. Great guest- thank you
I had a calling as a scout leader when I was a TBM, for several years. It was the ONLY calling I ever had that was required to go through a sexual abuse training, because the BSA was technically an outside program brought into the church. That was the only way the scouting program would recognize our church leaders as boy scout leaders.
Becoming an Eagle Scout was one of the most formative events of my life. I am the beneficiary of great adult leaders in scouting and the church. Every achievement of my life can trace roots to my Eagle Scout. It is heart breaking that such a great program was eventually destroyed by pedophiles.
It sickens me in the same way as well. However, it wasn’t just the pedos that destroyed it. That quote about evil needing good people doing nothing/standing by to triumph -that’s what happened. Pedos move on when they’re blocked. They weren’t blocked in the BSA.
@Jack Magdiel - sincere question here, roughly when did you get your Eagle? The majority of people my age (late 20s) and younger say they had quite the opposite experience that you did (myself included). From everything I've heard, anyway. When I hear somebody say they had a fantastic experience and that they have always been grateful for becoming and Eagle Scout, they've always been older. I actually can't remember hearing anybody my age feel anything better than lukewarm at best about how their Eagle affected them after they got it. I'm not calling you out or anything, just genuinely curious if your positive experience is relatively recent. (geez how stupid would it be to call BS on your experience, but I feel like I need to put a disclaimer because this is the internet after all lol)
I have a soft spot for scouting. It was huge in my family. My dad even worked for bsa directly early in his career. For my own sons though, they are not in scouts and never will be.
I attended a Little Philmont Leadership Training in Davis County back in 2008 ish. It was on a Satuday, in an LDS chapel in Syracuse, UT. Speakers included a member of the General Young Men's Presidency and high ranking employees of BSA. I can't remember which speaker it was... but we were told that "the boy scout uniform was the garment of the aaronic priesthood"! 😳
I heard that Marie left the church recently 🤷♀️ Don't know if it's true, but wouldn't be surprised if it was. She left after getting a divorce from her husband?
At least out here in PA i know that the youth that still wanted to be Boy Scouts( or if parents pushed it), would attend nonmember troops. Was thinking that this socialization with unindoctrinated kids could also have contributed to less boys choosing mission.
My kids wanted Eagle Scout Awards. I told them we'd only do it for the service of others. No ceremony period. I hated Scouting in the church and knew how corrupt it was. I told them someday soon it wouldn't be anything to brag about all the awards etc.. that was 6 years ago and well here we are.
To my mind it makes sense that LDS Boy Scout troops are typically sloppier. The rest of our upbringing is similar in terms of checking off boxes and checking off of merit badges wouldn’t be much different. It’s like memorizing the Articles of Faith; check that box. Baptized at Eight/ check. Read the Book of Mormon/ check. There is never real danger you’re not going to pass no matter how sloppy you perform these milestones
I wanted to be in scouting when I was 9 years old, but we were poor and couldn't afford the uniforms and dues. I probably dodged a bullet from what it looks like. That said, I was raped by a friend of my dad who became a serial killer later. The world is full of horrible people in positions of power. Scouting needs to be stopped or extremely regulated.
I believe the smaller $250MM number for the LDS church is an inaccurate explanation of the LDS churches actual liability and culpability. If the insureres we're not in place the churches cost would have been in the billions. The insureres paid out on church policies.
Omg I remember in my Spanish Ward, there were rumors that the scout leader did questionable things molesting kids. My mother forewarned me and I was careful to stay away from that person after hanging out with him. Although I’m glad that I never was a victim in retrospect this was a symptom of abuse mismanaged by the Mormon Church.
Maybe on paper and yeah it does happen, but in my mind one of the biggest hurdles for that specific time frame is that it would require a guarantee of being elected/appointed to a leadership position that fulfills the associated requirements. There are some non-elected positions if I recall that fulfill the leadership position requirements like ASPL, but if you are in a big enough troop only so many people can get elected/appointed. The troop I was in went downhill in the past few years in several ways, but at its peak membership it had lots of new scouts come in and assuming they were all dedicated to becoming Eagle (they weren't, but we can pretend lol) there's no way they could all have done it at 13 numerically speaking since there just weren't enough positions. It wasn't a Mormon troop, but when I was going to meetings it went by "boy led, adult facilitated," and just because you were qualified doesn't mean you would get the leadership position if the troop votes in someone else, other people are going to turn 18 sooner so they might get appointed first, etc. By extension, if you elected someone to Senior Patrol Leader that would directly affect who you would be listening to talk at the beginning of meetings and who would help plan outings. This system wasn't perfect, I do recall one occasion where the older scouts played a prank on me and told all of the younger scouts to vote for someone running against me as Senior Patrol Leader and he won lol. I got appointed ASPL and its not like he didn't need the requirement anyway though, so it all worked out. Although, later on I did get Patrol Leader by default since they just needed more patrol leaders and there weren't enough people volunteering. I heard the adults decided to micromanage the boys more after I left which sucks, but it is what it is.
In my ward (no longer attending) the parents paid to go to Saturday all day merit badge days to get the Eagle Scout faster. Also the moms would get together and do the merit badges for the sons. They would get rewarded with a Best scout mom medal
I certainly do not know John‘s relationship with his father. However, it seemed odd to me that he would disclose the information about his father’s abuse without first acquiring his permission.
The age 13 thing: 13 is the earliest that someone can get their eagle scout award. All of my brothers shot for 17 (but we lived out of Utah for a lot of that). My dad was their scout master for much of the time in various wards, and he thought getting it at 13 was dumb because then you've got nothing else to work for, and you've probably not done it right. Many people in Utah seem to think it's a badge of honor to get it done way too fast, but to say *every* boy was striving for it, and *before* 13 is hyperbolic at best.
Tell me what the difference is between fondlng a male and same with a female? Fondling means touch, manipulate, stroke?! If a maledoes this to a female, unwanted, is considered "rape"?! But because the male sexorgan is external, themeaning of "rape" has been scaled down?! In the bsa case, the "touching of the unclothed person" is treated with a far less seriousness!! Plus the emotional stress this action could have impacted the childs future life?!!
This seems to be true. Female and male sexual assault os never treated as equal. Males who are sexually assaulted or raped are often laughed at and dismissed, more so then women in my experience and estimation. And even to your point the definition differs in significant ways. All should be seen as heinous crimes.
This is very interesting. The coverup of abuse in Scouting is unconscionable and deserves to be punished, and victims certainly deserve compensation. But take some of what he says with a grain of salt. A week at Philmont for youth 11-17 currently costs $450. There are additional costs - but nothing anywhere close to $10K. And there are scholarships for kids who can't afford the cost, both from Philmont and from local councils and other donors. As for the connection with the LDS - should've ended a long time ago and it would have been better for the BSA, from my point of view. But I have no connection with the Mormon Church, just local Troops.
Damn, I've never heard of Mormon boy scouts setting a goal of getting their eagle before 13. Jesus christ. I knew one guy in my home ward who got his eagle when he was 13, but the only other two I knew got their eagles at 14 and 15.
There are cushy jobs like that in nonprofits who collect a lot of grants, and they claim they will create programs with the grants and then just keep the money and pay the directors high salaries. It’s pretty sad. 42:16
Unfortunately, that hot coffee at McDonald's lawsuit wasn't at all funny. They made a joke of her, in the media, to not have to pay her too much but her coffee really was extremely hot. I've seen pictures of that poor old woman's horrific burns. There was nothing funny about it. She's dead now but she never stopped suffering from those burns.
@@mormonstories No worries. I used to bring that case up all the time, in a much worse way but then someone showed me a documentary or expose about the case, a few years back.
@@rebeccacampbell585 Yes. Just like that Australian woman who's baby was probably eaten by a dingo. Another case that is way more complicated than I was originally led to believe.
When I went to high school pre 2007. Saying you were a boy scout was embarrassing, boys were bullied and called gay for it. There was a group of boys in my hs that had a secret meeting in the library that I overheard where they were trying to pressure a friend into scouts, "we do a lot of cool stuff, we just need another person to join, and we PROMISE you, we won't tell ANYONE you're a boy scout!"
A boy from my ward had a near death experience while on a boy scout trip. I remember him talking in testimony meeting and him turning his life around. He became a gospel singer and tours for LDS music. That trip was the one moment in his life out in nature
Scouting must have only been a USA thing. It was not a thing in Australia as far as I know having grown up Mormon and with active family. We used to just have young men's and women's mostly at the church doing activities there.
Please remember, this is the Church of "Jesus Christ," the "True" Church, founded by "Prophets" in the Latter Days. It is shameful, pathetic and outright abhorrent.
I got my Eagle Scout Award at age 13 because I wanted out of the program. I wasn't even given a choice whether I wanted to be a Boy Scout or not; it was simply compulsory. When leaders wanted me to continue earning merit badges and conducting scout troop meetings after I had become an Eagle Scout, I flatly said, "No!" That shocked them. "You must stay in the program!" they said, "You have to mentor the younger boys until you finish high school and start your mission! You just don't get out of the program once you earn Eagle!" I got angry and said, "The only reason I got Eagle was to be done with the program, to get the leaders off my back! I don't want to participate in another scouting activity ever again! You wanted me to get Eagle, and I got it! We're done!" They couldn't argue against that, so it ended there.
It's one thing for a boy to want to join a troop and do things in the program. It's completely another thing to conscript the boy to do things in the program without even a courtesy of letting him have a say one way or another. And I wasn't sexually abused in the program. If I had it that bad while I was in it, then I cannot imagine what victims had to suffer through. I hope they get compensation for everything they had to go through.
You have every right to feel that way. The lack of consent is a heavy and painful thing, especially if everyone in your family and circle of friends expects you to do X because that is what they also did at that age and because they fell that "it's just how it goes around here".
Thank you so much for coming on MSP Mr. Kosnoff. Very valuable information and just a stand up guy.
Hi, please consider bringing Jennette McCurdy on the Mormon Stories. In her memoir she writes about her deconstruction of the LDS church. It would be so interesting to hear her story.
Yes! Please do! Her memior was incredible. I've read it 3x already
Both MS episodes with Mr Kosnoff will go down as two of the most important episodes on MS. Awesome!!
Something that does concern me if it goes to the U.S. Supreme Court is that BYU has had more graduates of its J. Reuben Clark Law School work as Clerks on the Supreme Court than any other Law School outside of Harvard or Yale. And all of those BYU Grads have worked for conservative justices. On the current Court Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Gorsuch and possibly Kavanaugh have all had BYU Grads work as Clerks under them. And it does worry me that they could easily rule in the Church's favor no matter what.
It's frightening to know how much power they have in government.
I agree, that is very concerning.
Your guest is an amazing human being. He is a legendary! He deserves so much respect and gratitude! Wow, if only the rest of the world could follow his lead. Thank you Sir!! 👍🙏💓
This attorney, Tim Kosnoff, is so clear, factual, and refreshing. Thank you. What a massive travesty and an example of a complete lack of honesty and courage by church leadership. As a mother, I was a Scout Leader in the 2000 era. I withdrew our small son and stood down as a Mormon Cub Leader and served in our Community Scout Troop. This is horrifying news...Thank you.
My step-dad was my abuser. . . . .
True, but I think Kosnoff also revealed how bad and disfigured the American justice system is. The statute of limitations for sexual abuse of children serves nothing but shield the abusers. The various privileges including lawyer-client and priest-penitent are pushed to their absurd extremes and are being gamed by big legal firms or institutions like the church.
I'm no "sovereign citizens" type of person, but it is really hard to walk away from this interview without feeling like the US legal system is made to serve the rich and powerful only.
One of the very best Podcasts I have ever heard! So many facts and interesting facets to this discussion.
Absolutely insane. So so sad. What an amazing guy- THANK YOU for dedicating so much of your life to fighting this.
So sad 😭
I missed all my deadlines because of this series. Oh well. Thanks Tim, a voice of reason. The apologists must be scurrying around right now.
Thanks for participating @Person of Interest!
@person I found it very distracting at work also. This issue is of deep importance and disturbing almost mind blowing to me in spite of others who would say “that’s very unfortunate.”
Thank you Tim Kosnoff for your clear, intelligent, and empathetic explanation of a very complex situation💗
I could listen to Tim talk for days. Such interesting episodes, really enjoyed his insights.
Tough and important issues to discuss. Glad you are making these videos. Reporting of child abuse and rape cases in a lot of high-demand groups. Scientology is a good example, especially with the ongoing Danny Masterson serial rape trials.
Big shoutout to John's dad. He did the right and brave thing by speaking about it.
So the church exercised enormous influence on the BSA to not adopt the Recognize Resist Report policy among other things to suit their agenda. This could mean that the church had a major role in BSA problems which resulted later where boys were abused and the eventual bankruptcy of the organization. This is shocking to us members and shameful for the church.
Thank you, Tim.
I got my Eagle when I was still 12, a month shy of 13. I was able to get started while in Webelos (somehow?) and with weekly focus plus two summer Scout Camps plus my parents, and despite the opposition of at least one BSA person because of my age, they awarded it to me. Mid-late 90s.
I got my eagle at 13. It was a ton of work, very stressful, family pressure etc. I started working on merit badges at 11. Went on three scout camps. Overall i loved the experience the values, outdoor experience etc. That being said it horrifies me to realize this dark side existed for all this time. Makes me angry again at this side of human nature. Thanks for your work Tim
It horrify's me too& it is not just
In the LDS CHURCH.
I, was. L. DS for 36 yrs& not always a very good one.
A friend of mine said what happened in
the Catholic Church would never
happen in the LDS Church.
Not only, was he wrong 13-14 yrs. ago
when he said it in A MenS'. Meeting I, hope he remembers what he said to me.
More importantly I, hope( like you say)
These horrors are addressed& not just
swept under the carpet####
And that makes it even more horrible. So many people had actual good experiences in the boyscouts, had fun and had amazing troop leaders. But in the end turns out these good people were working for a corrupt, evil organization.
That must be hard: Someone who spent his whole life working as a boyscout leader with the best of intentions... and now has to hide in shame and fear that people will think he was in on the whole thing.
My Dad was converted through Scouts. The Bishop was his neighbor and invited him to be part of the troop, but he had to get baptized. He never actually believed but he was baptized to be part of the troop.
That's manipulative. I'm surprised his parents allowed it.
I agree that the BSA should be destroyed right along with every other organization and religious institution that is complicate in covering up and through their policies and negligence directly facilitating the continuation of these sickening crimes!
Except the BSA didn't cover these crimes, and was actually targeted by these attorneys after the laws changed on the statue of limitations through their internal perv list that they kept up with since the 1930's. The attorneys were able to locate troops with the pedophiles to develop clients.
The BSA have had problems with pedophiles since the beginning. These pedophiles used not only the BSA, but any all youth programs. They also operate in all youth programs including religious programs, youth sports, after school programs, and public and private schools. They are predators.
Sadly when the statue of limitations changed, public schools got an excemption from legal action from the accused.
When the laws changed the attorneys knew that the BSA had a list and deep pockets, large endowments and tons of real estate. These other programs typically have little and didn't keep up with pedophiles. Most since now use the BSA program of barriers to abuse that is multi-tiered and although not perfect, is the best protection hands down.
How come these pedophiles get away with their crimes? Because people let them. The average pedophile attacks up to 160 children before they are caught.
They are not stranger danger. They will be great-looking pillars of the community. They will be trusted friends who would be the last person you would ever believe, and when some kids did accuse over the years, even at times with their own parents not believing them, if they could make complaint, many were not taken seriously by law enforcement because it was often the mayor, the police chief, the priest, the school's principle, and other people with power and respect.
The culture existed in every organization, but BSA took each reported case seriously if reported, and they kept that list and checked each adult volunteer the best they could because once a pedophile got discovered, they often moved to a new town, in a new state, and would start over to gain everyone's trust and respect.
And it still happens to this very day. A person, not always a man, gets caught and everyone is in disbelief that this really great person who was so great, turned out to be a pedophile. And when they caught and study these pedophiles, most were victims in their time.
I don't think we have to end these programs like the BSA over this. issue, but protect children the best we can. When you tell people most pedophiles have moved into the public school space, they simply don't believe you. They still think these criminals are still going camping alone with youth. Which is not the case. Most scouting programs now have many adults going camping and going to all these programs in group of Two-Deep adults. Adults and scouts are taught about youth protection.
If a pedophile exists now, it will be because the adults didn't take their training seriously. They fell for the great person can't hurt nobody kind of pedophile that operates secretly in their program. And that gray person doesn't need a youth program to operate. They can still be a family friend, a family member, a relative, a teacher, and neighbor. If you don't believe that, go look up a series called, 'To catch a Predator.' There we're about three seasons from ABC News that caught hundreds of pedophiles until it got too dangerous and actors and news personalities almost got killed. It made everyone realize that no town, anywhere in America is safe.
Sadly so many parents are locking their children away, not even letting them play in the front yard anymore. A lot of these kids have no street skills, many are coming out not even being able to cook or clean for themselves, have little common sense and they are really messed up. Some are so confused they don't what century they live in or what even their gender is suppose to be. I wonder who is helping that confusion along? Maybe even encouraging and promoting? Are these attorneys out there saving your children from that? In short, those pedophiles are still out there waiting for your kids.
Do the math, that’s under $2,700. Per person for compensation… Just saying, the amount of money & wealth that corrupt organization has & what they’ve covered up, the lies, & lives they’ve impacted negatively is a disgrace!
@@mikecboss6120 Well that sounds like something more than nothing, I was going off standard dividing their lump sum by 85,500 people. Sadly like he said, that’s not even the real number. How about the woman that were told if they left their husbands they’d be doomed by same circumstances. I’m glad people are coming forward at least truth is coming out
Around 24 min “who’s your daddy?”
😂
Interesting point from John about the prestige of scouting within the church. In my ward growing up in Sandy, UT, there were around 20 of us who earned our eagle award at the same time. I grew up in a wealthy ward with connections and Thomas Monson who was the first counselor at the time came to speak and give us the awards at the court of honor. It was a HUGE deal for all of us as well and the ward and obviously to president Monson as he took the time to attend, speak and who proudly gave each of us our awards. I’ve certain there were never more people packed into the chapel and overflow for any meeting ever. It was PACKED. All the way onto the stage.
My husband was promoted from E-1 private to E-3 private first class when he first joined the military because he was an eagle scout.
It’s only recently that the fees were actually paid by the church. In the recent past the fees were paid by the parents if possible and out of other people and there were meetings at the church to collect these fees.
You're talking about fees for participating in the BSA, right? Do you know how recently that changed? Because I'm in my late 20s and I _think_ I remember that we had to pay the fee ourselves. We definitely had to buy our own uniforms and such though.
The Famous Coffe spill at McDonalds. This woman was seriously injured by coffee so hot it burned through her clothes and she had to have skin grafts. McDonalds knew their coffee was dangerously hot and disregarded that fact. This is why the woman won; she had a case. This is mentioned a lot as is people who sue after a bus accident. My father died after he was in an accident on the bus and we got no money. Asking people to question assumptions regarding this idea of everybody is suing and getting vast riches. It is very difficult to sue and expensive too. Most people do not, even if they are wronged
In law in the UK we have a term “model litigant”, where government bodies have to do EVERYTHING possible to be the most ethical and above board party in a law suit. You’d think “Jesus law firm” would exercise the same level of consideration!
My husband grew up in a boys home and became an Eagle Scout in the BSA. He says he never heard of anyone being sexually abused, nor was he ever abused. I guess he was just lucky but he recalls it as an awesome experience ! It made him a leader in Future Farmers of America, he was the president of the State of Missouri FFA. Our three sons were in scouting and none of them were ever abused. Just putting in a good word about scouting.
It used to be great. Glad he had a good experience.
I have a feeling where there was abuse in troops, there was lots of abuse. I grew up LDS in a ward with a very very good scouting program with very good men. I’m not saying it happened but I know they were very buttoned up and very deliberate to make sure to keep it from happening and I’m not aware of any incidents that happened. That being said, it’s sad that overall there clearly were so many cases and incidents of atrocious and life scarring abuse. I feel terrible and as an Eagle Scout myself, I’m disappointed in finding this out and outraged. Thanks to this man and others who are bringing this to light.
I am sure there is sex abuse in any and every organization under these circumstances.
Meanwhile.. I was a Girl Scout in the early 60’s (from age 7-11). We had 2 local church ladies (Catholic) who ran our troop (#64😉). Meetings were held in one woman’s house, where we ALL knew to steer clear of her HUSBAND (and the parish priest too) or you might get uncomfortably grabbed!! The 2 ladies smoked cigarettes through the entire meeting AND drank scotch on the rocks! Actually, the meetings were held from 4-6 pm after school each week which WAS technically cocktail hour, so… 🥴. And now that I think about it, I started smoking at about 12 years old too!
This is so interesting. I had no idea how LDS was intertwined with BSA NOR how influential they are. In the BSA AND the country. Great guest- thank you
I thought the LDS church was getting nervous because girls were going to be able to join the scouts! How naive!
Glad they were never a” force “in Girl Scouts.
I had a calling as a scout leader when I was a TBM, for several years. It was the ONLY calling I ever had that was required to go through a sexual abuse training, because the BSA was technically an outside program brought into the church. That was the only way the scouting program would recognize our church leaders as boy scout leaders.
Becoming an Eagle Scout was one of the most formative events of my life. I am the beneficiary of great adult leaders in scouting and the church. Every achievement of my life can trace roots to my Eagle Scout.
It is heart breaking that such a great program was eventually destroyed by pedophiles.
It sickens me in the same way as well. However, it wasn’t just the pedos that destroyed it. That quote about evil needing good people doing nothing/standing by to triumph -that’s what happened. Pedos move on when they’re blocked. They weren’t blocked in the BSA.
@Jack Magdiel - sincere question here, roughly when did you get your Eagle? The majority of people my age (late 20s) and younger say they had quite the opposite experience that you did (myself included). From everything I've heard, anyway. When I hear somebody say they had a fantastic experience and that they have always been grateful for becoming and Eagle Scout, they've always been older. I actually can't remember hearing anybody my age feel anything better than lukewarm at best about how their Eagle affected them after they got it.
I'm not calling you out or anything, just genuinely curious if your positive experience is relatively recent. (geez how stupid would it be to call BS on your experience, but I feel like I need to put a disclaimer because this is the internet after all lol)
I have a soft spot for scouting. It was huge in my family. My dad even worked for bsa directly early in his career. For my own sons though, they are not in scouts and never will be.
I attended a Little Philmont Leadership Training in Davis County back in 2008 ish. It was on a Satuday, in an LDS chapel in Syracuse, UT. Speakers included a member of the General Young Men's Presidency and high ranking employees of BSA. I can't remember which speaker it was... but we were told that "the boy scout uniform was the garment of the aaronic priesthood"! 😳
🤮
I hope to see Donny and Marie interviewed on this channel one day.
Me too.
Are they out of the cult now?
@@Rulyhacl i don't think so. Just wishful thinking. Imagine the stir.
I heard that Marie left the church recently 🤷♀️ Don't know if it's true, but wouldn't be surprised if it was. She left after getting a divorce from her husband?
Btw, Mormons...."recommend" is a verb.
At least out here in PA i know that the youth that still wanted to be Boy Scouts( or if parents pushed it), would attend nonmember troops. Was thinking that this socialization with unindoctrinated kids could also have contributed to less boys choosing mission.
My kids wanted Eagle Scout Awards. I told them we'd only do it for the service of others. No ceremony period. I hated Scouting in the church and knew how corrupt it was. I told them someday soon it wouldn't be anything to brag about all the awards etc.. that was 6 years ago and well here we are.
To my mind it makes sense that LDS Boy Scout troops are typically sloppier. The rest of our upbringing is similar in terms of checking off boxes and checking off of merit badges wouldn’t be much different. It’s like memorizing the Articles of Faith; check that box. Baptized at Eight/ check. Read the Book of Mormon/ check. There is never real danger you’re not going to pass no matter how sloppy you perform these milestones
I wanted to be in scouting when I was 9 years old, but we were poor and couldn't afford the uniforms and dues. I probably dodged a bullet from what it looks like. That said, I was raped by a friend of my dad who became a serial killer later. The world is full of horrible people in positions of power. Scouting needs to be stopped or extremely regulated.
I believe the smaller $250MM number for the LDS church is an inaccurate explanation of the LDS churches actual liability and culpability. If the insureres we're not in place the churches cost would have been in the billions. The insureres paid out on church policies.
Watching with difficulty.
Omg I remember in my Spanish Ward, there were rumors that the scout leader did questionable things molesting kids. My mother forewarned me and I was careful to stay away from that person after hanging out with him. Although I’m glad that I never was a victim in retrospect this was a symptom of abuse mismanaged by the Mormon Church.
Yeah, you shouldn't really be able to get Eagle at 13. There would probably be some shenanigans going on there.
Maybe on paper and yeah it does happen, but in my mind one of the biggest hurdles for that specific time frame is that it would require a guarantee of being elected/appointed to a leadership position that fulfills the associated requirements. There are some non-elected positions if I recall that fulfill the leadership position requirements like ASPL, but if you are in a big enough troop only so many people can get elected/appointed. The troop I was in went downhill in the past few years in several ways, but at its peak membership it had lots of new scouts come in and assuming they were all dedicated to becoming Eagle (they weren't, but we can pretend lol) there's no way they could all have done it at 13 numerically speaking since there just weren't enough positions.
It wasn't a Mormon troop, but when I was going to meetings it went by "boy led, adult facilitated," and just because you were qualified doesn't mean you would get the leadership position if the troop votes in someone else, other people are going to turn 18 sooner so they might get appointed first, etc. By extension, if you elected someone to Senior Patrol Leader that would directly affect who you would be listening to talk at the beginning of meetings and who would help plan outings.
This system wasn't perfect, I do recall one occasion where the older scouts played a prank on me and told all of the younger scouts to vote for someone running against me as Senior Patrol Leader and he won lol. I got appointed ASPL and its not like he didn't need the requirement anyway though, so it all worked out.
Although, later on I did get Patrol Leader by default since they just needed more patrol leaders and there weren't enough people volunteering. I heard the adults decided to micromanage the boys more after I left which sucks, but it is what it is.
In my ward (no longer attending) the parents paid to go to Saturday all day merit badge days to get the Eagle Scout faster. Also the moms would get together and do the merit badges for the sons. They would get rewarded with a Best scout mom medal
My question is did the LDS church know how bad the BSA with sexual abuse was when they joined with them?
TIM: in your opinion what % of the sexual abuse cases are from LDS church leaders? Thx
In the previous episode he gave a ranked list of prevalence of types of abuse.
Its a great thing youve done n continue to do. ..why the let them live is beyound me n let them back into society .
Mattagammon in Maine has 6,000,000 acres is BSA property
I certainly do not know John‘s relationship with his father. However, it seemed odd to me that he would disclose the information about his father’s abuse without first acquiring his permission.
As soon as John mentioned that, I think he realized he had made a mistake and realized he should have gotten his father's permission first.
The age 13 thing: 13 is the earliest that someone can get their eagle scout award. All of my brothers shot for 17 (but we lived out of Utah for a lot of that). My dad was their scout master for much of the time in various wards, and he thought getting it at 13 was dumb because then you've got nothing else to work for, and you've probably not done it right. Many people in Utah seem to think it's a badge of honor to get it done way too fast, but to say *every* boy was striving for it, and *before* 13 is hyperbolic at best.
Guess who bought up all the BSA property in the Idaho Falls area at deeply discounted pricing?
@@DavidJSmithCT it is indeed a curious opportunity. The timing between the bankruptcy and the purchase was amazingly fast.
Tell me what the difference is between fondlng a male and same with a female? Fondling means touch, manipulate, stroke?! If a maledoes this to a female, unwanted, is considered "rape"?! But because the male sexorgan is external, themeaning of "rape" has been scaled down?! In the bsa case, the "touching of the unclothed person" is treated with a far less seriousness!! Plus the emotional stress this action could have impacted the childs future life?!!
This seems to be true. Female and male sexual assault os never treated as equal. Males who are sexually assaulted or raped are often laughed at and dismissed, more so then women in my experience and estimation. And even to your point the definition differs in significant ways. All should be seen as heinous crimes.
This is very interesting. The coverup of abuse in Scouting is unconscionable and deserves to be punished, and victims certainly deserve compensation.
But take some of what he says with a grain of salt. A week at Philmont for youth 11-17 currently costs $450. There are additional costs - but nothing anywhere close to $10K. And there are scholarships for kids who can't afford the cost, both from Philmont and from local councils and other donors.
As for the connection with the LDS - should've ended a long time ago and it would have been better for the BSA, from my point of view. But I have no connection with the Mormon Church, just local Troops.
Damn, I've never heard of Mormon boy scouts setting a goal of getting their eagle before 13. Jesus christ. I knew one guy in my home ward who got his eagle when he was 13, but the only other two I knew got their eagles at 14 and 15.
There are cushy jobs like that in nonprofits who collect a lot of grants, and they claim they will create programs with the grants and then just keep the money and pay the directors high salaries. It’s pretty sad. 42:16
Unfortunately, that hot coffee at McDonald's lawsuit wasn't at all funny. They made a joke of her, in the media, to not have to pay her too much but her coffee really was extremely hot. I've seen pictures of that poor old woman's horrific burns. There was nothing funny about it. She's dead now but she never stopped suffering from those burns.
Yes. I know. I’m sorry I used a bad example. I didn’t mean to dismiss that particular case.
@@mormonstories No worries. I used to bring that case up all the time, in a much worse way but then someone showed me a documentary or expose about the case, a few years back.
Here is a quick break down of the coffee case ua-cam.com/video/s_jaU5V9FUg/v-deo.html
@@llt8101 I saw that too. It's a good lesson to remember we often don't have the full facts of a story.
@@rebeccacampbell585 Yes. Just like that Australian woman who's baby was probably eaten by a dingo. Another case that is way more complicated than I was originally led to believe.
When I went to high school pre 2007. Saying you were a boy scout was embarrassing, boys were bullied and called gay for it. There was a group of boys in my hs that had a secret meeting in the library that I overheard where they were trying to pressure a friend into scouts, "we do a lot of cool stuff, we just need another person to join, and we PROMISE you, we won't tell ANYONE you're a boy scout!"
LOL! My roots are in Wyoming and we have cowboys. Even on my moms side they are cowboys. That family were frontiersmen
A boy from my ward had a near death experience while on a boy scout trip. I remember him talking in testimony meeting and him turning his life around. He became a gospel singer and tours for LDS music. That trip was the one moment in his life out in nature
@ 1:19:30 "...... Jesus was a golden calf" Wait What?
No. He said "Jesus or the golden calf".
@@llt8101 Thank you for the clarification. I miss heard him.
Scouting was just like my mission, a complete waste of time!
sounds like Jimmy Saville stuff
Scouting must have only been a USA thing. It was not a thing in Australia as far as I know having grown up Mormon and with active family. We used to just have young men's and women's mostly at the church doing activities there.
Please remember, this is the Church of "Jesus Christ," the "True" Church, founded by "Prophets" in the Latter Days. It is shameful, pathetic and outright abhorrent.
💰
Money Power and Sex(ABUSE) 24:18
The Boy Scouts video of three Rs: ua-cam.com/video/I7boW5LOrUw/v-deo.html
Excellence except the unnecessary Obama slam.
Now it makes sense that Romney started MassHealth as a conservative governor.
I detested scouting. Weird power trip man-child leaders that I always felt awkward being around.
The Obama comment... #rollseyes