Throwing a Pilum in Armour - How far can a pro throw?
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- Опубліковано 28 тра 2024
- The Romans used a pilum or a version of it for hundreds of years and it was used to harass the enemy from a distance and help break up shield walls and formations just before fighting lines clashed and it was very effective. But how far could a legionary throw one?
I cannot throw well, but Michael Allison throws javelin for Team GB; he can throw! So I have recruited him again to throw for me wearing no armour (like skirmishers), just a mail shirt and wearing the mail and holding a shield. Running and standing.
The first Pilum film with Michael is here • Throwing a Pilum - How...
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Many thanks to Michael Allison m.f.s.allis...
Many thanks to Adam Rudling for lending the pilum and shield
The genuine smile on Michael's face when he first put the mail on was wonderful. Doesn't matter where you are from or who you are, wearing armor is still pretty cool.
💯💯💯👍
i feel the same way when i put on my level IV plates 🤓
@@ogloc6308 Oh hell yeah. The Plate Carrier gang is here. Love how much crossover there is
What do you mean "still"? I doubt it was pretty cool in the past, back when they had to put on the armor, walk a hundred kilometers in it only to bleed out in the middle of nowhere after having an arm chopped.
@@leonardodelpuertoburk2439 most of the time warfare was - and still is today - boring. Lots of standing around, marching and waiting. Until "modern" times i.e. the introduction of small firearms with high firing ratio (around American civil war) the casualty rate was (usually) much much lower than it afterwards. Additionally, volunteers often didn't know what would expect them on a battlefield as mostly the grand and heroic stories are told. So, your picture is not really accurate.
Furthermore, the others were referring to the feel of wearing something substantial, solid, which is very satisfying and calming. (Similar with animals, which you can dress in a tight shirt to reduce their stress e.g. during fireworks.)
I think this goes a bit in the same direction as donning a uniform or a well made/fitting suit (when one can often observe a change in behaviour, like standing more upright), but on a even more fundamental level: we feel safe under heavy stuff.
Tod is slowly making his own army. Michael throwing javelins. Joe shooting arrows. Matt coming in with the infantry weapons. Tod himself with the artillery. Now you just need some cavalry.
Edit: Toby as the Cavalry.
Toby jousts.
Jason Kingsley has the horses and the expertise ... and armour ...
@@molochi I forgot thanks for the reminder.
cue modern history
Air force too
4:42 Tod just casually duplicating himself to help someone put on some mail, a man of many talents.
Ahaha, I thought the same thing.
Me too! Who is this second Tod?! 😊
Summon 'Tod +2 Str'
wait what
Tod clones with The Force
I love the poof of rain off the mail when he launches the pilum. It really shows the speed his arm is moving. 6:31
I thought that was talc powder for his hand
And was that an added sound effect or was that the real sound?
@@TheQuiQuestion thats the real sound
I thought I must've imagined that, as when we sdaw the slo-mo replay I didn't notice it. Of course it was water spray; I thought it was rust or dust at first.
honestly, this is the kind of stuff we need to study more, like that castle in france being built with only medieval methods and materials, recreating the history helps us understand it more, by doing this video we learn more and more about what its actually like for roman soldiers to do this stuff, BRILLIANT
The Castle of Guédelon. it's a small castle of a baronet and it's absolutely a blast to visit and see how it's done! They even have a small watermil for flourmaking they do the forging, the stone masoning etc, it's really intresting to visit indeed!
@@elgraid exactly, interactive history, it gives you a real scale of how impressive these things actually are
"Modern society" seems to be more interested in rewriting history than studying it.
The most interesting tidbit I saw / read was the commentary about "How did the medieval warrior clean and care for their chainmail?"
It turns out that while museums had to oil and clean their chainmail, marching soldiers did not. Their armor cleaned itself (from all of the movement). They learned this from marching overland in it!
🤣👍
It's definitely a boon for reenacting history.
There is a UA-cam series on it.
Michael is a hero to do this. Thank him for us, will you? We need lots of people who know different things to make history come closer to us.
Fascinating insight into the role of skirmishers. Running around unarmored in front of the enemy lines always seemed risky to me, but if you can significantly outrun and outrange them it makes a lot more sense!
Absolutely. Especially with the flexible Roman formation that left spaces between the units for those ahead to be able to retreat rather easily.
I doubt it was a conscious decision to not wear armour in order to throw further. It's just that some people recruited (/drafted) into the army couldn't afford armour, so they were organised to fight in a way to accommodate that. By the time the Roman army was professional and kit was issued by the state, the light infantry (velites) virtually disappeared, not only in the legions but also the auxillia. The role that they had fulfilled was taken over by a combination of archers and cavalry.
Also if you have a line of soldiers in a formation, even a loose one, it's a lot easier to hit them than a small amount of skirmishers that don't stand in a formation.
@@QuantumHistorian I'm pretty sure it was a conscious decision. There were not only Romans in history, you know... Also Greek peltasts (and other types of skirmishers) didn't wear any significant armour.
It's a choice of tactics imho: run fast out of reach or withstand missiles.
We should not forget that after the initial skirmishes, these very same men would also carry water and supplies etc.
Of course economic conditions, social structures and professionality/training/experience of the troops also played a role, but I'd say mostly tactics.
I guess you could have a line of armored troops with shields and a line of minimally armored skirmishers as one unit. The skirmishers would run ahead of the formation to throw, then retreat behind the armored troops after throwing.
If they stay at 40 meter, their troops would be able to hit armored troops without being able to be hit back. Then have armored backup incase they were rushed
Big thanks to Michael for coming again to show off his skills in these very unusual conditions!
Michael Competitively competes
As opposed to casually competes or competitively casuals. Keep up the good work all the same!
I competitively don't compete. I'm probably the least competitive person.
@@mostlychimp5715 I'd put myself forward to challenge you on that, but then I'd lose by default. Consider yourself unchallenged
I mean, there are people who go to a competition without the intention of winning it, but to just see how they compare, beat their previous record, or even use very different equipment from normal.
That's a casual competitor.
@@mostlychimp5715 Same. If there was a world championship for sitting still, I wouldnt even show up.
@@Jusvidz Na you take it.
Big props to Michael for his willingness to participate & share his insights. Thank you for another excellent video.
I'm sure that throwing the pilum with armor and shield on brought a new insight for him towards his sport.
I love Tod's approach: 'let's find out' - after thinking hard what exactly needs to be looked at.
And it's great that he finds enthusiastic experts, like Michael (or Joe Gibbs) who know their stuff and can give great feedback after they've done it.
Thanks - great video!
Thanks
Todd's videos are excellent. However, some of his historical assumptions can be a little off. For example @07:00 he compares Michael's stature with that of a Roman legionary and describes them as being 163cm/5'4". Legionnaires were actually taller than average due to their recruiting policies and Geoffrey Kron's research of exhumed bodies in Italy concluded that the average man was around 168cm/5'6" while Vegetius in De Re Militari wrote that the ideal height for a soldier was 180cm/5'11". I can't find the reference right now but I believe there was another study of exhumed Legionnaires on a campaign that found an average height of 173cm/5'8". So it's likely they were not particularly smaller than modern people and Michael's stature would not be uncommon. It's a small point overall but part of historical education and experimentation is making sure we don't pass on inaccurate information.
@@dgmt1 One significant factor about stature was diet and health. We can say we arent genetically much different than people in older eras but our habits and nutrition do have changed. This means that while the average population height has significantly increased, the "stand outs" may average about the same, that is people who had acess to plenty of food and medicine. Romans had recruiting policies and viewed the military as a job option through most of their history, so It may very well be the case that the average legionnaire had the same physique as an average modern soldier from a developed country.
We can assume the average legionary was similar to the average person thanks to the existance of special legions that had unusual height requirements.
We begin to really see the utility of unarmored skirmishers when comparing their throwing distance to heavy infantry; it's almost twice the distance! A group of skirmishers can easily harass a column of infantry while staying out of range.
that's a great point I hadn't considered! For a wise general they'd have their own utility and weren't just 'throwaway' troops.
I seem to recall a description of a battle in the war between Sparta and Athens near Corinth where this was evident and some hoplites doffed armour to counter.
@@OldOneTooth This became a wider phenomenon throughout the Peloponnese Wars, hoplites started wearing lighter and lighter panoplies and ended up just using textile clothing most of the time.
unarmoured skirmisher with a small/no shield makes a heck of a lot of sense now.
@@Alexthehuge This was the description given for the opening stages of the battle of Mons Graupius. The Caledonians with small shields were sparring against the Germanic auxiliaries with javelins. Throwing them, catching the ones coming at them and throwing them back. Very much a skirmish oriented army with longer swords for dueling and small shields to parry with. Then the Germanic infantry which was essentially heavy infantry with shorter swords designed for fighting in close surged forwards and those small shields meant the Caledonians got cut down in close quarters.
Love the fact that Michael threw the pilum further than anyone on set anticipated. They set up the camera and the second throw is just out of frame. Wonderful.
Really appreciate this athlete's, Micheal, contribution to our history community. Bravo🤗
the throw at 4 minutes made me shiver. imagine getting that in your shoulder digging itself down into your lungs.
Roman mail for the most part had short sleeves or no sleeves at all. I now wonder if they had short/no sleeves because that would make it easier to throw a pillum. Would also be interesting to see this test with lorica segmentata.
I think the short sleeves were also or more due to lower cost and ease of production, and the fact it was sufficient for the time. The Romans did adopt longer mail sleeves later during the mid to late empire, and the Romans during the 2nd century during Trajan wore additional arm armor...all of which could've hindered javelin throwing. The Celts also had some forms of mail that had a longer sleeve, and they also often used javelins.
@@Intranetusa Also it's damn hot in the mediterranean.
I have done reenactment in the butted mail with no sleeves and I would not want that kind of weight restricting my arm movement. With the flat, riveted rings, I would be a lot more comfortable with sleeves as the weight is so much less. I think you see the change in the presence of sleeves when the way mail is made changes. Just my 2 cents.
@@killerkonnat Some of the heaviest and most cumbersome armour ever created was worn by the Parthians, Sassanids and other Turkic/Iranian peoples living in smouldering heat of the middle east. Think layers of padding and _heavy_ chainmail from head to toe, on top of a horse similarly covered. So I doubt heat is a major factor in wearing armour if you think having it on will make you perform better in combat.
My thoughts exactly
Not surprising that over 40lbs / 20 kilos had this effect. Cool to see it demonstrated, and see how significantly the weight affected his willingness to try running throws.
Indeed, though I'd love to find a nutter that can throw and is willing to train in the armour and shield (so probably a 'retired' athlete) - see just how much difference it makes with and without and across the training journey to a well practised and prepared warrior. Would really answer that tricky question of 'Can with some extra confidence and training that range deficit be reduced, possibly even eliminated?'.
@@foldionepapyrus3441 or a joe gibbs kinda nutter who just decided "I'm gonna start doing this thing and I'll dedicate every day of my life to it" lmao
@@Sk0lzky That would work, but I'd like to see how much that particular 'pro' thrower looses initially by donning armour and see the progression from that POV myself. Would still be really interesting your way, seeing the progress from normal to Roman Legionary, but to me not as interesting.
I hazard to guess that the largest effect is the added weight on the arm itself. All that energy that previously went into the pilum now gets split to also accelerate the heavy armor on his arm very quickly. Also the stiffness of it around the shoulder probably restricts the range of movement a little, enough to make a significant impact.
@@foldionepapyrus3441 I think it's significant that Michael's opening stance has arms outstretched. That stance is blatantly designed with the assumption of no armor on the arms. It would be interesting to get some people with biokinematic knowledge to try to figure out how you might trade off with that additional constraint to still maximize a throw. At the very least, you'd lose that opening stance.
Thank you Micheal, if you're seeing this, thanks for being a part of this experiment and i wish you well on your future endeavurs. Great video as always Tod! :)
That still shows that pilum was an effective weapon at a distance of 20-30 meters. That is impressive and shows, why we read of two pila per standard legionary. There was enough time to throw both of them on an attacking enemy (the "after 20 passum" and "after 10 passum" seems quite right). Very nice :)
AND this is using someone that is a great distance thrower, but NEVER had trained in armor/shield. IMAGINE if he trained for a month before doing a throw :o
To gain more range and power The legionaries used string of leather wrappedt around their throwing hands wrist and to the end of pilum. Like any other skirmishers of era.
And I know The legionaries were not skirmishers,
@@hautakangasarttu6915the legionaries were equipped with several weapons we have proof of atleast legionaries having, sword, dagger, javelins/spear and slings. If a legionary were to reduce his armour and use a lighter shield they could pretty easily fill a skirmisher role to my mind.
But, like you said(not that ive seen anything about the romans doing this) using a sling or another tool to throw the javelins further by slingshotting them was pretty widespread, i wonder if they did this with the smaller plumbata in the late roman era? Got any knowledge on that?
@@cognitivedisability9864 At least in some periods the Romans had a dedicated skirmisher force, the velites, likely people who couldn't afford armor. Small shield, 7 actual javelins, sword for backup.
it seems to me that the pila were often held up, waiting for the enemy, then throwing them at almost stabbing range into their faces.
Michael was a great sport to take part in Tods investigation. The throws taken could possibly be the minimum distance that a Roman soldier could throw after a much more intense throwing regime. Furthermore, the Romans used the amentum when throwing pilums, so perhaps that could be of use to Tods investigation. Just loving Tod's energy for bringing ancient weapons into present day, thank you Tod👍
I feel like he could have gone easily 5m up in one day of training without the cameras
@@DuBstep115 Yes, I believe he could have done 👍
I just hope that Michael, as a modern competitor, doesn't see these results with his throws and gets discouraged. Nobody is gonna be getting their competition throws in with these conditions or these pilum. So I hope he's been having some good fun doing this experiment and seeing what he can do with no training under these conditions. And lets hope none of his peers make fun of him for sub-par throws, technique, etc. Cause we all know what competitive sporting youth can be like..
I'm really glad he's agreed to so many videos though, and I want to thank you, Michael, for doing this. It's really interesting to see, and welcome to the channel and group!
I find that unlikely. Michael's got to be well aware that the pilum is drastically different than the javelins he trains with, and are designed with other intentions beyond simply "go as far as possible".
As for other competitors, none of them have thrown a pillum before, so they don't really have ground to criticize his technique (besides, getting to try throwing a Roman pilum is something they'd probably all want to try, I know I would)
Can't wait for him to throw some plumbatae next!
Was thinking about that as well.
Plumbum hurh hurh :B
It just amazes me how awesome this channel is every time I watch a new video. I mean... I already know the standard set by the previous videos, but I am still impressed each time. This... THIS is what History channel and the like should have been like. THIS is the Golden Standard of historical weaponry videos.
Thank you - big words, but I will take it!
@@tods_workshop could you do a comparison video between the English longbow and the Mongolian composite bow?
@@tods_workshop An executive at a big producer of history content would be stupid not to offer you a show
Thanks for listening to the comments Tod. Great work. It kind of panned out as I expected and Michael was not even burdened by the extra weight of a Gladius and Pugio or a helmet.
Since the Legion fought in ranks I do think the Legionaries at the rear of each file could have stepped back and had more room to hurl their Pila over the front ranks.
I also suspect that the Legion had held an 'open order' to release Pilum and were ordered to step forward and 'close up' when the moment of melee arrived.
It is best to remember that a Pilum is not a Javelin. Rome of the classic era had plenty of skirmishers and missile troops to deliver those.
The Pilum is a specialist weapon of the heavy armoured infantryman.
It is a shock weapon designed to break up or disrupt formations of massed armoured and shielded foot soldiers.
It is like the massed volley delivered at 50 paces during the musket era.
It stops an advancing charge in its tracks causing chaos or it is the prelude to an attacker charging in with the bayonet. Range is not the main factor its all about the killing power.
Thats why stuff like this is so interesting and vital for historical research, cause we can sit around on a armchair and talk about how they *could* have done things, or we could go and do it ourselves and see how it actually worked.
...and almost certainly weren't carrying their shields.
They'd probably also be throwing the pila of the soldiers in the front rank[s] who provided cover as the shield wall.
@@andyleighton6969 I agree. I think its most likely that while all legionaries carried Pila on the march, during combat they were passed to the rear ranks to throw whilst the front ranks formed a solid shield wall.
I this way its similar to all modern soldiers in a squad carrying spare machinegun belts while only the MG gunner and his assistant use them.
In fact I suspect that each Roman squad had good throwers and bad throwers and the best Javelin throwers always got the job of hurling the Pilum until they got worn out.
Michael is back :D
He seems like such a good and humble kid.
Loving this pilum series, glad to see more from Michael
If I were a competitive javelin thrower I would jump at the chance to connect with the deep history of the skill.
As opposed to uncompetitively competing. Which I have been accused of.
Great video Todd.
Great video. Slight correction: Roman legionaries were typically at least 5ft 6/168 cm, and the army wanted to recruit reasonably big guys. Cavalry were expected to be slightly taller on average. The calorie intake of Roman soldiers was usually good, and meat was eaten fairly often. Legionaries were largely recruited from labourers, and this plus a rigorous regime of exercise meant that they were strong.
Didn't they have a policy where recruitment targeted farmhands first and foremost? I also read that height was considered a big factor in recruitment especially during the heights of the roman empire, but I can't for the love of me remember where.
From historical notes of Roman writers we know their neighbors/invaders were quite a bit taller than Roman soldiers were and yet the bones of those neighbors/invaders rarely show 5'8 individuals which probably means the Romans greatly overestimated their height when writing it down and were most likely shorter than they claimed. This is very in character for Roman writers.
@@goofy855yeah however i have seen videos in the past that the romans set height requierments on the legionaries which was around 5'10 or taller and this was reduced or increased at some point(s).
@@ThefamousMrcroissantThe idea as far as i can remember was that using people from the countryside was a great bonus for legionaries. For several reasons but those i remember being mentioned was these people often were used to hard labour, were used to harsher conditions, and often had superior knowledge of all things nature, than the urban population. Wasnt just about the "strength" itself
@@cognitivedisability9864 That's what Vegetius says, at least... writing about a military several hundred years before his time.
Michael is a total MVP for his assistance! Awesome work as always, Tod!
Michael is a really great sport for doing all this, glad he's helping! Hope his professional career turns out great!
Thank you , Tod .
Thank you , Michael .
🐺
This is some of the best historical exploration and discovery content on UA-cam, great job as always Tod!
Thank you for such detailed experiments. This one has confirmed the range listed for a thrown javelin in the GURPS 4th edition TTRPG core rulebook is quite reasonable. 😎
Once again reality turns out to be so much more interesting than just theorising! Thanks Tod and Michael!
Michael is a trained, consistent thrower. Perfect for testing purposes.
It's worth noting that the Roman light infantry (velites) that wasn't wearing armour were also throwing different kinds of javelins than pila. Something much shorter and lighter IIRC, although I can't remember the latin term. But they were presumably longer ranged intrinsically, and the velites carried more than 2 each (we see around 5 in art work). However, such light infantry was phased out at about the same time as Marian reforms. Which, incidentally, is also when the pila evolved into what Tod is holding, and we hear more and more about the pilum being used as a melee weapon against cavalry and in some defensive roles.
Very good point; I'd just like to add that the javelns the Velites used were called iaculum (or, less creatively, hastae velitares).
As the previous worthy commenter has said, iaculum (plural iacula) would be the javelin used by velites, though the word telum is sometimes used instead. Both essentially mean "light javelin" (or dart...). It amuses me just how many words there are in Latin for 'spear'.
@@TitusVarus Thank to you both.
I remember while trying (and mostly failing) to memorise my Latin vocab for GCSE, just how many words there were for "to kill".
@@QuantumHistorian Oh yes. I can think of at least four off the top of my head, and I'm very rusty.
Romans liked themselves some killing.
Tod such a engineer he created a cloning machine and cloned himself.
Heh! That's a brother, right?
Definitely not a relative
Another fantastic video.
One thing that I noticed, with the shield throw, is that Michael usually uses his off-hand as a counterbalance, but the weight of the shield has to throw the equilibrium, that he is used to, off by a lot.
One assumes there may be some "correct" or optimal way to hold the shield when throwing that isn't commented on in the sources. At least, that was the thought going through my head when watching.
This team up is great! Hope Michael Allison makes it big in the athletics world and plays a consistant role in re-living history!
Crackin' job, both of you! The more practical tests people like you do, the better idea we get of how it actually played out! Here's hoping for more!
Thank you Micheal for putting your professionalism at stake to humour us
Fantastic job by Michael. If you're reading this, greetings from Finland.
This sort of stuff doesn't give definitive answers but it gives a lot when speculations and at best educated guesses tend to be what's out there. The years of training, the ground the thrower is on and what kind of shoes he has, all make a difference. This gives some sort of idea about what things could have looked like. There would have been rubbish throws, people slipping etc and some great throws and a lot in between.
I am also sure that I would not want to be in the direction where those would be flying towards.
Huge props to Michael for being willing to do this for us. He probably felt a bit silly in that getup, but the data he provided was invaluable.
Why are there 2 Tods 4:55 ? What are you hiding from us mister Oftodsworkshopandtodcutler?
Not a Tod clone, although that's maybe flattering?
4:43 There are two Tods?!
No, Tod plus beautiful assistant
What impresses me is how even with a running start, his torso _instantly_ freezes. it just stops dead. it's like all momentum suddenly goes into he arm and projectile.
You sir are a perfect historical channel. Its a wonderful thing to be able to get top-notch folks to try and show what these tools could, and maybe did, do.
Professional PILUM throw in Armour = PRICELESS! a 1st and great work as always
Yes and no. He is a dedicated athlete, and probably better practiced at it than any other profession we might use for this test... but he is *not* a professional pilum thrower. He's a semiprofessional SPORT JAVELIN thrower. These weapons are not quite the same in shape, weight, or balance. More importantly, he's definitely not a professional ARMORED pilum thrower. It seems fairly obvious that the optimum technique used to throw a pilum while holding a shield is not the same as the optimum technique for throwing a lighter, better-balanced javelin while wearing a track suit and having your off hand unencumbered.
The problem is that there really *isn't* anyone who is an expert on how to throw these anymore.
Great stuff. Thank you to everyone involved.
Super cool series! Thanks Tod for setting this up!
The roman legion was split in different classes like any army ever. The legionarys used pilum while charging or defending from a charge therefore its not necessary to throw them 20+ meters. I think in reality they had to throw them at about 15 to 20 meters, they're not sharpshooters. But as a Velites (spear thrower) you wear no armor, a buckler and a helmet and you're job was to throw spears. They had to throw them further than a legionary, thats what they're ment for.
Sure, but note that this is the middle republican army you are talking about. Before that (kingdom and early republic) the Romans probably used something similar to the greek style of combat and then by the time of the Marian reforms they abandoned the different classes of soldiers altogether for a single all-purpose legionary. The main reason behind the use of velites was that those were poorer and younger citizens who could not afford a full gear. Later, as the army professionalized, they were not required to buy their gear beforehand and every soldier carried more or less the same equipment (unless they performed specialist roles such as artillerymen). The auxilia also used the same equipment and tactics the Romans did. It is true that the later foederati used their native fighting styles and equipment but by that time (the late empire) even the Roman army composition changes too (and pila are probably not used any more or not very often anyway).
Rule #1 Do not break the athlete.
6:34 the dust exploding off his hand after he throws is so cool
More of this! Absolutely awesome video. Cheers to all of you involved.
Consistantly interesting. Fun to see Michael back and to hear how he feels. Thanks for the video.
I really appreciate the respect you show to Michael with the emphasis on what he is comfortable with
I love to see these things tested in the best way possible, thanks to both of you for getting back to this and actually testing it with armour and a shield. I am looking forward to seeing more on the pila and of course content on other historical matters as well.
Im so glad he came back to do more. Its super interesting getting his perspective and seeing his expertise applied.
Phenomenal example of the scientific method at work! We need more people like you in the community, keep up the great work!
This was absolutley brilliant!! Also so happy that you both stepped back and said no on the running throw. As interesting as it would have been, safety is paramount especially with a young athelete. Keep it up!
Enjoying this series and many thanks to Michael for being such a good sport with this!
Loved it. Very grateful to Michael for being such a good sport and coming out again, because this was educational.
Dude this guy's throw is remarkable. Considering he is standing in the first throw and still delivering so much engery to the Pilum, blows my mind
I thought that too. I was immediately thinking of how much damage 162 J would do to a soldier.
good call on not having him run with the shield, I'm pretty sure he'd've gotten injured.
One of the most instructive and well put together video on the internet concerning Roman weaponry and the technique that went behind using it in battle. Looking forward to seeing more of these ! Well done !
that was very interessting. thank you Michael for doing this. and thank you Tod and Team for asking those questions
I especially like the bit where Tod experiences mitosis and multiplies into 2 Tods to put on the maille.
I Live for this type of content. I just LOVE All but especially Medieval, Celtic, Greek, Roman, & Egyptian History, Culture, Folklore, Story Telling, Mythology, Fables, Legends, Weaponry, & ANYTHING ANCIENT. I absolutely love reading watching & just learning what I can about these topics and more
That's some very impressive throwing!
Love to see all this practical research about historical arms and armour, keep it up Tod!
Shows like this are why I am glad UA-cam exists
Very cool, always love these.
Pilum vs armour soon maybe?
Interesting video, I do have a few, albeit small, caveats and addendums though (going by an early Imperial legionary): They generally ate quite well too, certainly better than the average civilian population and trained regularly, as was said, so I don't think Michael's physique is necessarily that far off. Of course modern training and nutrition regiments will be better, but they certainly weren't all short and scrawny.
The mail shirt was a bit longer on the arms than what would be typical for the period and also fairly loose there. From personal experience, some extra weight on the arms can make a big felt difference, since it is further away from the body and the weight has more leverage there. So this mail shirt was probably more of a hindrance than period ones would have been.
Finally, since we already had armour and a shield I would have liked to see Michael wear a appropriate helmet as well, since I would be curious to see if that makes a difference. Legionary helmets of the period generally are very good soldier's helmets as they barely restrict vision, hearing and so forth and can comfortably be worn for quite long periods at a time, but I still would like to see if it makes a difference. Even if the result is skewed by Michael being not used to the equipment.
Also, I'm sure Michael's time is limited and it's great he's available for this at all, but a few more throws, maybe at least an average of three, would give a more robust result than a single throw each.
(Main source is M. Junkelmann: The Legions of Augustus, among others, as well as personal experience.)
Yeah, my thoughts on the nutrition as well (although Tod is probably right about the height of most legionaries).
The mail shirt in the video is closer to medieval mail than a Roman one. On the other hand, Roman mail was also often (although not always) padded with shoulders reinforced. The sleeves were shorted but the extra mail on the shoulders might also make throwing harder.
Also, in early to middle republican armies, soldiers often wore a square torso plate instead of mail (which was in fact adopted from the Gauls). That was a lot lighter and arms were not covered at all. The scutum also had a different shape at that time (more oval than the one Tod has, which doesn't seem to be common during the republic at all), although I am not sure which one is more or less unwieldy during the throw.
And of course, the velites wore almost no armour at all (save for the helmet and a smaller shield)...but those dissapear after the Marian reforms.
realy enjoyed watching this. Thanks again Tod and Michael.
Outstanding - very much appreciate Michael's participation.
I’m just imagining Roman soldiers conquering the world while they all have perms 😂
Brilliant again Tod and Michael. I can't help but wonder if there is a method of pilum throwing that involves using the shield as a counterweight like Michael used his arm throwing javelin style.
I suspect that style would require a different shield shape: the scutum as depicted is too long & awkward for such use IMO
This is what you excel at Tod. Practical, well structured, plain tests. You have really made some interesting videos for us over the years,
These videos are so interesting! Thanks Tod and Michael!
I don't remember the exact number but in the Sylloge Tacticorum the distance that ranks should be spaced from each other for this purpose is specified. Of course, that's a 600~ years younger text than vegetius and their javelins were different, but it could be used as a balpark.
I think it was something like 1.8 meters
To some extent there was also the Roman Auxiliaries like the Velites which had chain, a helm and a very small shield not much more than a buckler and the Light Auxillia which tended to have much the same but a much larger shield. Not quite to the extent of the big Scutum shield the legionaries tended to tote around, so they probably would have had even more practice throwing Javelins and Pila at the enemy. But yeah, throwing with a big shield is a whole other way of doing it and its really going to make it awkward until you eventually found the right way of keeping balance, out of the way and not tripping arse over head!
Interesting to see how it worked though first hand
The last thing you want to do is being the one who trips down when the enemy is charging against you. It'd make for a very silly death probably.
@@LuisAldamiz If you're in a standoff range of under 30metres, it could get very unpleasant as some angry barbarian can probably cover that distance in about 4-5 seconds at full tilt... and now there's a hole in the shield wall so your friends are probably going to tread on you to fill it :)
@@krissteel4074 - I'm sure they had well calculate how long it takes. I've argued somewhere that it's possible that the first line only threw one pillum, while those behind threw two instead. We don't know so much detail but makes sense.
@@LuisAldamiz It could even be that the 1st rank sets up to receive a charge and anyone behind them throws everything they have and see what sticks. There would definitely have been a combat drill to practice where the centurion would have all the soldiers working together. Get the timing right and after enough of that it would come down to him giving the order on the day they take to the field.
I've not read anything on it myself
I love this pilum series. Thank you
Being a fireman and former pro scuba diver I'm fairly used to working in heavy, restrictive gear. To me this looks very difficult. In my experience having a heavy weight on your shoulders and arms makes it extremely tiring to do any work with you hands above chest height. The weight pressings down on the outer part of the shoulders is the thing that does it. As a fireman we can often find myself, for example pulling down ceilings with a crowbar or similar heavy tool and your shoulders just start aching after a few minutes. Now I'm not superfit, but I'll say my upper body strength is above average. My point is that if I were to wear amour and throw a spear, I'd probably try to limit the weight on my shoulder. Maybe by having more of a vest kind of mail, or maybe with some light plate, either leather or metal, to cover the shoulder. I'm no expert in Roman armour or tactics, but it would be very interesting to hear what kind of amour, if any, these back row spear throwers used. I mean one thing is to throw one or two spears, but presumably more is needed for a big battle. Very interesting tests 👍
I'd be really interested to see how far Michael can throw the much lighter, shorter verutum javelin, which was the weapon of the Roman velites (skirmishers) who tended not to wear armour, but often had the smaller lighter parma shield.. However, I think you might need a longer field for that experiment Tod! :)
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verutum
Agreed! Also the Lancea from their interactions with Iberian peoples. But seriously, what can the amentum do for a throw. I imagine there is a decent learning curve to it, but some of those very simple add-ons can be highly effective. Look at Atlatls for an example of crazy power with relative simplicity.
Awesome video, very impressive athleticism Michael!
Cheers for contributing to this Michael. Didn't have to do it but very much appreciated. Thanks as always Tod.
Ah, this is the edutainment that I crave. When the History Channen, Animal Planet, and the Discovery Channel turned into reality shows, I'd lost hope in fun video education. You and those like you have filled that niche in my heart. You also make better, more honest, and more accurate content as well. WONDERFUL!
I wonder if there was a technique by which the shield arm could be swung opposite, more intentionally, in order to provide a torsional moment to the throw and go from being a hindrance to an advantage, or at least neutralize it versus sort of fighting its mass.
I'm guessing there was. When you do see roman legionnaires in contemporary art throwing their javelins, they tend to be shown holding their shields almost perpendicular to their bodies.
These videos are great content. Thank you for all the effort you put into them.
I have loved this video series! Thanks so much for putting it together.
Great video! Thank you SO much for making these 🙏🏻
Well done Michael, thanks for helping Tod test things out!
And good on you Tod for testing further.
Nice one Tod, been waiting for this one.
really awesome to have a dude of his stature coming along to help better understanding all this
Thanks Michael !
Great video and cheers to Michael for being such a sport!
Thank you, Tod, for this video!
Thank you Michael for lending your expertise.
I cant belive I was not subscribed after the first part of this series! Another great video, thank you!
Great video Tod, well done Sir
3:51 thats a cool sound....imagine hundreds of people doing the same thing at once.