Pro Thrower vs Armoured Barbarian. Can he stop the charge!?
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- Опубліковано 5 тра 2023
- Roman Legionaries practiced for years to throwing the pilum. Michael Allison throws javelin for Team GB; he can throw! But can he hit a Charging Barbarian? Would this weapon break up shield walls and formations just before fighting lines clashed? And will the barbarian's shield save him?
The Roman Author: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetius
For budget medieval weaponry of fantastic accuracy and value todcutler.com
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First and second films in this series • Throwing a Pilum - How... and • Throwing a Pilum in Ar...
For those who enjoyed Arrows vs Armour todtodeschini.com
Many thanks to Michael Allison m.f.s.allis...
Many thanks to Adam Rudling for lending the pilum and shield
Looking forward to Michael's post-Olympic medal interview. "I just imagined a barbarian horde rushing me and let it rip".
you made me chuckle, tyvm :)
I wonder if Michael is reading the comments. If he is, I hope he is having fun doing some actual damage.
Comparing Michael's first video and now, there is a difference, he seems way more comfortable in front of the cameras now. And of course throwing a spear at a human-shaped target, something completely different, might also have played into it.
history is always fun :D
From his insights and choice of words, I suspect that Michael has found time between physics lectures and javelin training to read some Roman history himself
11:45. Well that's a lung done.
@@edelweiss- super fun, wars, genocides, arson, assassinations, et cetera 😂
This young man is going to be a historian and he didn't plan on it. 😀
You know Michael is spreading the word right now that the video is up. They will be discussing it at school all week.
Now give him a Brown Bess.
@@act.13.41 He's a physics undergrad I believe. 100% chance the next mechanics tutorial will be hijacked to discuss penetration of projectives in a ballistic trajectory
This young man had already become a Roman soldier and he definitely didn't ever plan to be one! 😂
I was thinking the same thing.
I love that Michael is starting to theorize with you, not just as the muscle. He's obviously an intelligent young man.
He obviously now looks at Javelin with an extra dimension.. must be lovely.
He seems like a guy who wanted to study history but was good at throwing a Javelin so did that.
did you really say that? really?
You don't become a pro athlete without some brain
What a stupid comment. I thought the stereotype of jocks and nerds had died off.
The one that went right through the shield, the mail, and the gambeson and then penetrated enough to most likely be fatal was a great confirmation of what a pilum could do. The one that deflected off the shield's boss and *still* went through the shield's wood, the mail, and the gambeson... That one really surprised me!
That's the huge mass benefit.
@@mandowarrior123 for sure, and also shows how good that long, narrow iron head was for penetration.
And add a little extra impact velocity for a live target charging the line and into the pilum.
Shows the devastation these things must have caused. Thrown at mass by disciplined soldiers and they just need to hit you somewhere for a potentially killing blow? Yeah. You might be hyped up enough to shrug off arrows behind your shield but when the pila start skewering people left and right, it's gonna be hard to retain that lust for combat.
Yeah, it surprised me too that it went through all that. Horryfying for sure.
Michael is an amazing sport (no pun intended) and now he seems to be having fun as well. I could imagine his doubts when I watched the first video. But now I'd say he noticed already this isn't a silly channel, noticed that Tod is a pro, and I hope he has time to read the comments, because this community is one of a kind as well. Thank you enormously Michael and Tod for your effort and time, this is providing priceless input. For those without an idea that just happened to read, by some random reason, just this comment, up to Tod's experiments with the best in each area, everything was pure speculation, or, centuries old, likely biased, reports. Can't thank you guys enough, hope you had a great time, and a great weekend as well!
Tod's channel is awesome because he is an absolute professional who knows how to get other professionals on. All his guests are extraordinary in some area, be it in the arrows vs armour videos, matt easton or Michael here. Conducts himself with such humility too despite all of this, just shows the respect he has for his audience.
To add to that, I do think Tod's a bit socially awkward and there's quite a generational distance between the two, so it's absolutely normal it took some time for them to warm up.
How nice is he throwing that pilum. A complex steps and whole body movement. I could throw probably only for 10 m...
i think he is interested in history hisself. which men isnt xD?
I love how Michael's been getting more and more into this over this series. All those extra shots today to try to hit from 20 m. He's having fun and letting that competitive spirit flourish, and it's making for great videos.
He seems like a good kid.
what I was thinking, you can see why he is a pro. Rain? nahh bro I gotta make this shot.
I have often wondered what a properly thrown pilum did in battle. Thanks to this great collaboration I need to wonder no more. That's why I love this channel.
That is not an accurate shield by any means though. That is a thin piece of ply wood. I still have yet to see and actual example of a wall of men using them as apparently intended in an effective way against a legit round shield.
@@kaylew1082:27 "It is NOT plywood"
This continues to be an amazing collaboration. I appreciate the no-nonsense editing of your stuff a lot. A classic studio show would take an entire season to show what you do in 20. With all their recaps, stock footage of unrelated places and people, the dramatic narrations, etc...There's none of that extraneous crap here.
Yep, the best editing is BRUTAL.
Extraneous crap will be forged into plumbata and lobbed at the range.
True
On the subject of accuracy, there's an excellent anecdote from the Battle of Ruspina, where Julius Caesar was fighting against his former right-hand-man, Titus Labienus:
_Labienus rode bare-headed up and down the front line, encouraging his own men the while and occasionally accosting Caesar’s legionaries in such terms as these: ‘What are you up to, recruit? Quite the dashing little fellow, aren’t you? Have all of you too been made fools of by that fellow’s words? So help me, it’s a very dangerous situation he has driven you into. I feel sorry for you.’ ‘I’m not a recruit, Labienus,’ replied one soldier, ‘but a veteran of the Tenth legion.’ To this Labienus retorted: ‘I don’t recognise the standards of the Tenth.’ Then said the soldier: ‘You’ll soon see what I’m made of.’ As he spoke the words he flung the helmet from his head so that the other could recognise him and, thus uncovered, brandished his pilum with all his force, as he aimed it at Labienus: then plunging it violently full in the horse’s chest he said: ‘That will teach you, Labienus, that it’s a soldier of the Tenth who is attacking you.’_
(Caesar, African War, LCL402, p166-167)
Taking this incredibly 300-esque scene at face value, some veterans could throw a pilum with force and accuracy at a range where a seasoned officer thought he was safe. It's hard to say how far Labienus was from the Caesarian lines, but considering he was taunting them, maybe around the 30-50m mark?
Keep in mind they must've been in shouting distance, and be able to understand each other over the noise of all other men around them. So 50m (half a football field) would be a generous guess.
Before they changed the javelins, over 90m throws were commonplace in the Olympics; the record is 104m. The best still manage over 90m today.
So an accurate 50m pilum throw by a legionary who's trained with them for hours every day for years is far from impossible.
@@Hirosjimma Yeah, that's why I put that as the upper limit. Keep in mind, it was more "shouting abuse at each other distance" I'm not sure it was necessarily fully coherent banter.
@DomWeasel very different kinds of javelins though. Hence the purpose of his whole series of tests...
@@maxbachvaroff1967 Yeah, I broadly agree with, hence the caveat at the bottom. But the fact that Labienus was dehorsed had a significant impact on the rest of the battle, so it's unlikely that the whole incident was made up. Dramatised, sure, but unlikely to be pure fabrication IMO.
@@QuantumHistorian Seems likely that major details are correct, but highly doubtful that conversations like this took place during a battle. Yelling something and maybe getting a simple reply? Probable. Full on discussions? And someone remembering/writing them down? Basically zero chance. These types of conversations seem to pop up again and again and it's a pretty safe assumption that that is the style of historical writing at the time. I'd accept that he was reckless and yelling insults, and that he was dehorsed by a javelin. Anything beyond that seems like fantasy.
I love how Michael seems to be getting more confident in these and enjoying them more and more. Keep up the good work and if Michael sees this I hope you keeping working together and having fun.
Add to the fact that the first time he was on was around/during competition season for him. Now that he didn't have to worry too much about staying in top form or any minor repetition injury, he could go all out and have fun with it.
It's great to see Michael getting more comfortable with this weapon and these films. He went form "sure, I suppose this is similar to my sport, I guess I could entertain the medieval man's ideas" to formulating a battle tactic.
"I'm just here to set baselines for the funny history man's data."
"But I don't care that it's raining, I need another kill. :( "
Let's not gloss over that he's an athlete focused at throwing a javelin the farthest. Accurately hitting targets is not what he practices yet lands the mark consistently. What an absolute legend. Folks like these bring History to life and a whole new perspective on what went down in battles. Pointy sticks must not be underestimated.
edit: wrongly autocorrect
YES more pilum and Michael! And once again imagine marching in closed lines towards the enemy when they launch a few thousand pilum at you at close distance. It's no from me. :)
Pila* second declension nominative plural
@@WalkingCWild "Ah. Ah, dative, sir! Ahh! No, not dative! Not the dative, sir! No! Ah! Oh, the... accusative! Accusative! Ah!"
A few thousand seems very much the upper bound. Most (large) armies were in the low 10,000s, not all of those would be legionaries, not all of those would be in the cohorts/maniples deployed in the forward line, and not all of those would be in the front ranks, and the the entire length of line would probably not be coordinated to within a pilum's flight time.
@@QuantumHistorian add in time to that. How many seconds does it take an armored man to run 20 meters? Have Tod figure that out.
@@QuantumHistorian You ever heard of hyperbole? Or mansplaining?
The thing with those near misses is that in a packed formation charging at you, it is still quite likely to hit someone/something else, so I can see a shower of these pilums thrown in quasi unison by legionnaires would be incredibly devastating.
Even if they didn't directly hit someone, imagine you're charging and suddenly a pilum appears by your legs. It wouldn't surprise me if the 'misses' caused people to trip.
@@stoicshield That's what caught me too. If you're running in a charge, the pilum throws that fell short are likely to have actually hit you, and then the small forest of wood sticking out of the ground from misses that fell even shorter become an obstacle of their own.
"Dang, I was aiming for barbarian 43, but I missed him and hit barbarian 157 behind him. Dang it, never do I hit what I was aiming for!"
"One dead barbarian is one dead barbarian, Bobus. Don't be so pedantic and selfcriticising!"
Exactly what Tod said at 3:47 : Got the guy behind.
The charging 'barbarian' would not have the pilum coming at him in a straight line but have it come down at him from a steep angle..forcing him to face the shield upward. Also, a pilum falling on the opposing soldier will be accelerating due to gravity..The pilum head were made of soft iron which resulted in its bending when it penetrated the shield..
This would be a bit impractical to do, but it would be interesting to get a few of Michael's mates from the training field, say a total of 5 to 10 throwers, and set up a bunch of silhouette targets down range and see what a massed volley of pillium would do to a unit sized formation.
Michael definitely got into it, I loved the fact he wanted more throws towards the end :) As someone else I think already said the one thing it 'disproved' I think was the pilum being design to bend so it can't be thrown back. If you can't pull the pilum out with two hands and bracing, you certainly can't pull it out one handed in battle.... no need for it to bend at all. It's probably just a by product of fast mass production as they just needed it so hold up for one throw, no need to put more work in than needed.
That is an excellent point. It's for mass for stopping power and balance and it's pointy. Elegance is the least amount of complication to achieve perfection. Here we have it.
Tbf, it also doubled as a spear so it stands to reason that it wouldn’t be designed to bend too easily.
@@Inquisitor_Vex how much did it double as a regular spear though?
To stop cavalry charges
@@raigarmullerson4838 whenever they didn’t throw all of them?
If you want me to give you a textual example of then being used as spears, I can’t. It’s just something I’ve come across in my reading but can’t remember where from.
There are some things I think are worth noting though.
They carried like 2-3 of these things and you’re not always going to have time to throw them all so then, what do you do? Just drop the pilum or use it as a spear until it breaks or is lost?
(Maybe the specifically carried 2 so they could throw one and hold one?)
Also the fact that a lot of other armies or the time are in the majority armed with spears so why would they purposely put themselves at a ranged disadvantage when they already have a perfectly serviceable spear?
Finally, swords get a lot of attention because they look so cool but the spear was the real king of the battlefield was spears because of the fact you can reach them before they reach you. (I think both Schola Gladiatora and Lindybeige have videos on spear vs sword and both come to the same conclusion).
I just want to say that Michael Allison adds so much to these videos. It's especially great when he has a chance to talk. I'm so glad that he takes time out from his other activities to help entertain us and maybe teach us a thing or two.
Usually takes a couple of times in a video, before you're comfortable. I bet he didn't want to interrupt or talk too much. But his perspective as a professional thrower would have been interesting
@@rebel4466 For what it's worth, "MrTwostring" is not my main channel, but even there you can see my own progression into "feeling comfortable"- so I do know what you mean. I also think that as Tod brings more "subject matter experts" into his videos, he will grow as a host and find ways to make his collaborators look good. Letting them know they're ALLOWED to talk, giving them some points to make, leaving room for them to talk, and asking questions that don't just have a yes/no answer are all steps that can help. The pro interviewers on TV make it look easy -- but being a good host is also a skill that takes time to learn.
I always say that having a camera/live audience focused on you is like petting an adult pitbull.
You either start with 0 people watching and get comfortable along the way, much like owning a puppy and seeing it grow to full size.
Or you get dropped in front of a camera with an already existing audience and itll take a while before youre fully comfortable, much like petting someone else's full grown pitbull
(nothing against pitbulls but its a classic fear so it works for the comparison)
A couple of those hits really bring the devastation home. I found it really interesting how the point penetrated then the shaft fell and dug into the ground. If you were moving forward with some pace and with people behind you doing the same, that would dig right into the ground and push right through whatever hole it made. Even if the armor stopped it at 25-30 meters, you might just skewer yourself when the shaft dug into the ground and the man behind you ran into your back.
Best case scenario it's still splitting the formation and slowing down the charge as people have to be more cautious to avoid skewering the people in front of them.
@@aurtosebaelheim5942 Don't forget that the soldier would likely try to block with his shield, so it is more likely to go into the shield and force the soldier to either abandon the shield or break the charge and the formation of those behind him while he is trying to get it out of the shield.
I was thinking about that too. The throw were the pilum glanced of the shild, and then flopped sideways across the legs of the dummy. Imagine that happening when you are maybe not running but advancing at fast pace, with a couple of guys coming in right behind you. What do you think, how many people would just fall and functionally be out of the charge.
It seems like with many of the Roman weapons you initially see it and think, it can't be to bad they couldn't be bothered to finish making it properly. Then it hits you and it's like oh 🤬 this is particularly nasty... I can't get it out and the guy behind me is stuck to me also and it don't want to come out....
Anyone knowing a pilum wouldn't try to get it put but just ditch his shield if he still can. And don't firget: adrenaline is a hell of a drug!
Tod, you also need to test that pilum out against "bronze shielded and armored" armies of the Carthagian and Hellenistic Kingdoms.
I kinda wanna see how the pilum dealt with hoplite and phalangite armies with their bronze armor and bronze shields, particularly against their elite and royal regiments which had even better hardened arms and armor.
Oooh yes please
up this
I would expect a phalanx being obliterated if left alone against a maniple doing several volleys before smashing in at melee.
Without shields the phalanx is pretty much useless and the guys at the front would either die from the pila or being easily cut down at combat, then the guys at the rear, now being the frontal line, would be at a big disadvantage not only because of numerical difference but also armor disadvantage, classical hoplites put the more wealthy and better armored men at the front and the rest at the back.
That's actually quite an interesting and complicated question at the same time.
Given the comparatively slow velocity of the Pilum, I can now more readily believe the assertion that the Makedonian Phalanx could withstand volleys of Pila because of the overhead Sarissae.
As for Aspides, they are interesting in the sense that their construction could vary quite a bit, with strength and weight thus varying as well.
What they all have in common is the domed shape, which means the Pilum is very unlikely to strike at a 90° angle.
With bronze coating, which was not as ubiquitous as popularly believed, I believe it would have been quite likely for the dart to glance off.
But, and that's a big but, during the Punic Wars, most Carthaginian armies would probably have already abandoned the Aspis for a form of Thyreos, both due to the large amount of Celtic and Iberian mercenaries, as well as the probable prolification of the type in the African (meaning Libyan, Phoenician and Libyphoenician) part of their armies.
@@DLockholm We know the Romans struggled with Phalanxes from the front especially on flat terrain, both Macedonian and Classical Greek phalanxes, a far larger force of Romans failed to break the Spartan lines in the streets of Sparta for three days in 195 BC until Pythagoras surrendered the city. The issue was as ever with the phalanx it's inability to maneuver and turn rapidly.
I remember listening to a narration of Ceasar's accounts of his time in Gaul*. At one point, he describes one group's fighting style as a "phalanx" which was able to be broken up by Pillum. Specifically, the enemy shields could be pinned together by a single pillum penetrating mutliple at one time, forcing two fighters to drop their now connected and unweildy shields. I believe it was the Helvetti, specifically.
It'll be some kind of shield wall with overlapping shields, that does sound right.
I think this video managed to demonstrate it's certainly plausible for a javelin to punch through more than 1 shield's worth of wood, so yes, provided they were already overlapping, the damage to the "shield wall" is more significant than the damage to any individual soldier. Overlapping shields are a bit like plate armor or even chain mail, in the sense that the interconnected nature is where it derives its benefit.
This would be a great one to test in the future.
It would be worth testing that on two historically accurate Celtic oval shields in the future, perhaps. I’d also be curious to see these javelins tested on proper Iron Age style mail as made by the Gauls.
Helvetii to be accurate, funny coincidence helvetti means hell in finnish 😂
The way it spins through the air before nailing that mannequin is so good man, this guy has got talent.
The whole time, I was thinking how accurate he’d be if he were a Roman soldier & trained at those distances for a couple/few hours a day. Those guys must’ve been terrifying. I wouldn’t want to be at the front of a massed charge with a bunch of Michaels flinging those fuckers at me, that’s for sure!
Michael is a lovely addition, and i hope he sticks around as long as he's enjoying the experience with you Tod!
This pilum mini series is just great.
Looking at those tests is very interesting. It was common for people to say that the role of the pilum's long head was to bend, making it difficult to pull out of a shield. But clearly removing the pilum is already difficult even when its head is perfectly straight.
Rather, it seems like this long, narrow head was designed for the pilum to pierce as deeply into the target as possible. Maybe it was to make the weapon more deadly, and/or to allow it to pierce the man behind the shield.
Fantastic work as always! Kind of reinforces my view that war javelins/pilums would really mess you up even with armour.
they would be pointless if they didn't 😀
There's a few accounts by Romans describing the chaos of having guys shields stuck to their arms with a pila through it, going through the horse armour and messing up cavalry or just going clean through body armour. Having one of these things hanging out of you is war cancelled, turn around and go home!
@@nudl3ZzArmour penetration was not the primary purpose of the pilum. It was mainly used to disrupt the enemy's front lines before the infantry engaged each other and while killing was possible, against heavy infantry it probably did not have a high casualty rate. According to period accounts, pilum barrages were extremely effective against lightly armored troops but not so much against heavy infantry. For example, Polybius wrote the Roman pilums were devastating against the Gaesatae celts, who fought naked with small shields, while the jerkins (likely referring to mail coats) of the other Celtic warriors offered much better protection. Keep in mind that in general armor was kept as light as possible and if it was not resisting weapons of the period well, then it would just be made thicker and heavier. In addition, if pilums were extremely effective at penetrating armor then they would have used more often by skirmishers and would have been adopted into the tactics of other armies too.
keep in mind this test was conducted against non-authentic medieval-period armour with 9mm rings. Authentic Roman-period mail was quite a lot thicker and heavier. I believe museum pieces have been measured at 6mm and this would be much more resistive against arrows and javelins. Mail in the late migration period started to get much lighter with larger ring sizes, likely due to the javelins and archers being used less frequently at the time. So we shouldn't make assumptions just from these tests especially as period accounts seem to indicate that heavy infantry lines were able to resist pilum barrages with fairly light casualties. The pilums main purpose still seems to be disabling shields and causing injuries to the arms and legs of front line troops before the lines engage each other, rather than primarily being for armour penetration.
@@dgmt1 4 to 6mm inside diameter is kinda standard in Antiquity, and appears again in 16th century (we don't have that much mail from Meideval period preserved, sadly), though there are also things like Fluitenberg mail with inner diameter of about 3.3 to 3.8 mm which is quite insane, but again, wouldn't be out of ordinary.
It really makes me wonder how did they organize the production of mail to make shirt made out of ~100 000 rings somehow affordable (even if for chosen few).
Modern sports science and athletic badassery meets medieval battle technology! This is great fun.
It has been great to watch Michael throw, I have throughly enjoyed each of these throwing sessions! Looking forward to seeing more!😅👍
Michael seemed to enjoy it too. He started out as a guy who just kind of got talked into throwing it a few times. Now, you can tell that he is really into this. He only stopped throwing, because it started raining. He'll be back for more. 😅
In the future I suggest you set the shield up with the boss about 50cm away from the body, at roughly a 45° angle. It'd be more representative of how a shield is naturally held, as well as how they're often held in period art, and should result in better protection both through the added distance and sloping. It would also somewhat simulate the curvature of a Scutum.
Totally agree that this would be more realistic.
From this however it was already very cool to see how the shield can be totally made useless with the pilum sticking through it.
You already saw what happened. If at 45', the steel head will skate across and go right for the head and shoulders making it even more deadly.
@@TheKodiak72 Obviously it should be angled to deflect things off to the side, not up into the face.
@@retohaner5328 OK, you hold the shield at the ideal angle where running over potentially uneven ground towards an enemey formation yeeting big sticks with metal pointy ends at you.
@@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t I spar with shields at least once a week. As I said, it's the most natural way to hold it while fighting, whereas having it flat and tight to the body as Tod set it up is extremely awkward, especially when running.
I'm a simple man, I see Tod's Workshop new video, I like it, and then proceed to watch it knowing fully well the like will be more than justified.
I do the same 😀
If only Michael knew that by the end of this series he'd be planning how to become a cold-hearted, barbarians slaying killer. Fun to see him very much enjoying it!
Michael evolves into a great fellow for your channel, Tod.
I'm delighted to see him again :D
That hit at 15M was so cinematic! The way the dummy just canted back and slumps down looks so realistic. This series keeps getting better and better! I can't wait to see you shoot the spear chucker contraption at it.
Actually if I never see the spear chucker contraption I'll be happy. It removes a lot of the variables. This is so much more realistic.
@@wolja removing variables is THE POINT of scientific experimentation. Now that he knows what a human can do Todd can tune the machine to replicate the effect every time.
Yikes! First hit right into the collar bone, that'll hurt!
Amazing video again! Love this series with Michael a lot! And he seems to get more comfortable with the Pilum too, sounds more eager at least. (PRobably because you don't often get a chance to throw a spear at a human-shaped target!)
Yea, You'll not be running much after a hit like that (or after the hits penetrating the shield for that matter).
No matter how hopped up on adrenaline and/or mushrooms you may be, an injury like that ruins your day.....
@@srenkoch6127 Yeah, Michael pointed that out nicely, spear in shield, spear dibs down, digs into the ground, you skewer yourself.
11:17 we can assume that the long metal shaft is not only for piercing a shield and getting stuck but also for doing the same to a human torso to instantly take an enemy out of the battle.
Lovely to see Michael having more and more fun with this.
Tod did have me wondering where he found a 15th century gopro.
Also, I would love to see Michael throw a pilum into a board wall (replacement for shield wall) at several distances to see how far he can get it into a shield when accuracy is not an issue.
As always, great work guys.
Phenomenal throwing, Michael. Watching the perfection in some of those slow motion shots was just fabulous.
Another great video, Tod. I am really enjoying this series.
Did anyone else cheer whenever Michael hit the dummy?
once you see this weapon in action you realize how much thought went into the design
the tip that punches a hole wich is wide enough to allow the pillum to continue its way with minimum friction
the flex of the metal that allows to continue in a path even when deflected
the point on the end of the pilum wich can catch the ground and create resistance if and when the target keeps moving forward
the deformation wich makes it hard to remove and/or to throw it back
Another great video!
During the period of Vegetius the Legions had adopted the Plumbata but they did use a Pilum-like heavy Javelin called the 'Spiculum' and a light javelin known as the 'Veruta'.
This is likely why Vegetius was still familiar with the characteristics of a Pilum-like weapon.
I love how much fun Michael is having. This is such a blessed collab.
"Sometimes it's a bit theoretical,"
^^^ Says the man who spends most of his time doing practical testing of historic weapons. Todd, your channels is awesome, and the theoretical parts are important. There are some things we can only speculate at, but your practical testing helps with that. Keep it up!
And thanks to Michael for his participation. This another great video.
I've watched this whole series and it's fun watching Michael evolve from mildly interested test subject into an excited and competitive participant. I get the feeling he was having so much fun that he would've thrown his arm out LARPing if you hadn't stopped him, lol. Great series TW!
Michael seems to be getting into the hitting the target bit of it, well done man, always so interesting to watch these tests :)
One thing about the near misses that was not brought up is that if the target had raised their shield to protect themselves, the pilum would still have made them drop their shield.That is still a great advantage for you in battle.
And if not it would have hit a guy behind that guy eighther way.
Man, Michael is really such an asset for these tests. Hope he's having fun!
4:31 Possibly the greatest sponsor transition ever
Always a pleasure to learn from semi-destructive experiments
What I like about the pilum on legionnaries is the fact that they are still predominantly a melee fighting force, but just hurling 1 or 2 of these can apparently give you an insane advantage already.
There was a throw at the end where it just sort of Hit the person's fueled and legs sideways.. and at first glance that may not seem like much, but even if it just tripped someone up right before they get to the line, that's pretty big.
One of the major points to consider with a weapon like the pilum is that the entire rank of infantry soldiers would all have pila. Unlike bowmen, where they are dedicated troops separate from your infantry. So if you have 20,000 infantry in a battle, you have 20-40,000 pilum being tossed all within 30 seconds of each other. Whereas with dedicated missile troops like bowmen or slingers...etc, if you have an army of 20,000 soldiers, maybe only a 1/4 of them or less are firing.
Sure bowmen can fire 20-30 arrows over the course of an hour of the battle in a long time,. So you trade long term firepower for an overwhelming quick burst of fire of every single man throwing their pila all within a short time span. And as Tod mentioned, it would be done during the initial charge right before the lines clash. It's almost impossible to imagine how disruptive that would be on an enemy formation of troops running towards your front lines to suddenly have 20,000 pila crashing through their ranks just 10 meters before they hit your front ranks to start the battle. Even excluding the death and injuries they directly cause, the disruption to your formation would be a major factor in those critical first 5 minutes of initial combat.
What a great way to start the day
Thanks Tom, thanks Michael
I wish this was in the Olympics.
This series is amazing! Thank you both for putting in the time and effort doing this! ❤
Outstanding collaboration! Michael the skilled thrower and Tod, the skilled maker and keen historian
Just made my morning! Thanks Tod.
A great addition to an already excellent series. Keep up the great work, Tod and Michael!
im loving these videos. hope the young lad is having fun doing them as well. it would be great to see more of this kind of stuff
You can tell that Michael is getting into this. He'll be back, for sure.
6:55 Damn, that went through that shield like a hot knife through butter.
Whomever designed the pilum, really put a lot of thought into it.
Michael has to come back and do some more throws! He seems to really be getting into it as well. This has been a fascinating study so far.
I have a funny feeling he's going to set up his own target soon, I think he would've kept throwing in the rain had Todd not called it 😂
Its great. Looks like pilum works exactly as described in roman books. When shield is hit, there is no other way but throw it away. Beautiful recreation of history.
Great video, Ive always heard about how these would work in battle but the demonstration was excellent. Hats off to both of you and thank you for the great content.
6:20 you've most likely killed the guy. The subclavia artery is right there and he would most likely bleed to death in a few minutes. The top of the lung is also very close. In case the guy was extremely lucky and survived, the brachial plexus is also there, so he could be disabled for life (if survive at all).
I could practically hear the bones crunch as the slow-mo hit. Really goes to show how brutal these weapons were. Not that today's weapons are much less brutal, they just happen faster.
@@erinfinn2273 well, the most primitive weapons, such as cubs and stones, are pretty brutal actually. Even teeth are, if you see what a chimpanzee or a baboon are able to do with them.
With time, weapons have evolved to be, not less brutal just more efficient.
Awesome. Great job Michael! It would be interesting if Todd could find a way to safely simulate this with a moving target. Really cool Todd and Michael. Thanks for a great video!
Good idea, even just a regular target would be cool.
Great video, i appreciate your common sense historical approach to using and testing these weapons. Thank you
Love the 2 of you playing off each other. Nothing better than passionate and driven people enjoying what they do. A pleasure to watch and learn. Bringing together folks from diverse background to physically explore history is what makes what you do great and what convinced me to back you all's armor film. Keep it up!
So interesting; watching how menacing these things must've been at those 10-20m distances makes me wonder if they were used (like so many examples of musketry volleys in the 19th century) to hold off enemies from charging the flanks of a frontline, by units not actively engaged in the melee.
That's one very reasonably theory for how the Roman quincunx formation, with maniples/cohorts having large gaps between them in a manner like the dots on the '5' of a die, managed to avoid getting surrounded piecemeal.
Stagger and disrupt by throwing lots of pilums at a charging horde makes sense
This has been a fantastic series. I was wondering if Michael noticed any difference throwing the pilum after it was a bit bent. I was also wondering if he felt that the weapon would be better with any changes. Obviously he is not a weapon expert, but he is as close to a throwing expert as you are likely to see, so he might have some insight. Different texture on the haft or something like that for example
We of LEGIO II AVG COH V, Pilum will go through light shields… like your light Viking Shield. Does not penetrate well into a heavy Legionaries Scutum. Will go through riveted maille (we use 6 mm). As you know, Roman used plywood. The lead ball will make it very hard to throw…. So we tell the public do not hold shield next to your body so you do not get pinned to the shield if a spear/lancea/Pilum hits you.
Michael getting more and more into this as the series progresses is awesome. Excellent lad.
I'm already giggling with glee after the intro. This is going to be good! 😆
Edit: And indeed it was!
😂IM the sponsor briliant😅
Thanks to Michael, and love the new series. Always great when you put the experts through their historical paces, and hear their insights.
Thanks Todd & Michael, great content!
Yes! This episode was juicy 🙂
I don't care what's going on in Westminster right now, *this* is the most important video content happening today
Agreed.
I'll say it yet again.
Content you won't find anywhere else!
Thank you Tod and Michael.
This is amazing! Thankyou so much for making it.
"They are barbarians, I don't know from... Croydon or something."
ROFL
Obviously it's harder to hit the further away they are, but it also affects the angle the javelin strikes. The shield does better in deflecting the further you get from 90 degrees.
I imagine you'd have used the shield actively like that if you could, to achieve that deflection. But with a dozen pila coming your way at your section, you might not really want to.
yeah most soldiers would probably choose more of a static defense then a active one against the sheer mass of projectiles
Grand video gents! Best one in this series for me, really shows how affective a volly would be.
So a couple things:
1. We don't have good evidence they wore padding under armor. That only really starts to show up in the mid-4th century, and it's in a theoretical treatise suggesting improvements. In terms of hard evidence, we have two greave liners and that's it. Textual and artistic sources just don't consistently show the use of what modern reenactors call the "subarmalis." The other issue is that they made their "gambesons" or "underarmors" in a completely different way from 12th century and onwards medieval ones, and few people can do twining at the density necessary to replicate the originals (it's also hideously expensive).
2. Maille quality did not decline in the late Roman period, and they never used all riveted maille. Barring a few early knock offs from the 3rd century B.C., we only ever see alternating riveted-punched links in a 4-in-1 pattern. In the late Roman period, link size grew, but so did the thickness. The maille got heavier and more defensive, with 2+mm thick wire, and the I.D. and O.D. expanding with it. But functionally, the maille offered more protection. It's also worth noting, as I'm sure you know, that the problems with punching and setting the rivets in indian-manufactured maille results in a very high failure rate (I mean the rivets will literally fall out from walking around, I see it happen with reenactors' armor all the time.)
3. The facing and construction of the shield MATTERS. They aren't tanned leather, they're rawhide or very rarely gut faced on both sides, sometimes combined with a linen underlayer (or in the case of Masada, palm fronds). Testing published in "The Spoils of Victory: The North in the Shadow of the Roman Empire" showed that projectiles won't even penetrate a properly made replica of one of the shields from Nydam, Thorsberg, Vimose, etc. Improperly made ones will split apart completely after three hits from trilobate arrowheads. Also the rim should never be nailed, this is a result of reenactors copying 18th-early 20th century restorations of late medieval shields. The rims are always sewn on unless they have metallic edging, in which case we do see rivets.
- Evan
I'm not sure exactly which quality of mail Tom used, but I'd bet it's better than crummy reenactor armor. Sometimes he's really good about mentioning who made what piece as he's filming, sometimes he forgets. In general, though, I really doubt that any decent quality modern made mail is going to be much worse than the majority of what the Romas were throwing at, knowing what we know about inconsistent metallurgy in period. There's definitely a chance that a pilum wouldn't bounce off a boss and pierce the biggest quality mail of the time, but I think we're getting good data about what was plausible.
Do nails around the edge matter when you're hitting the middle of a shield? I regularly hear claims that some proper shield construction makes the things nearly videogame levels of resilient, but I've never seen a video of it, and the papers don't often explain their testing criteria as clearly as I'd like. I'll check the source you referenced, sounds interesting
@@holyknightthatpwns the metallurgy in the period wasn't highly inconsistent, that's really a common misconception. Roman steel was typically low to medium carbon and had very low slag content. The Romans and other iron age smiths knew how to get consistent qualities of iron, and when the ore quality was so low they struggled to achieve it, pattern welding became common.
That being said, the metallurgy of Roman maille has not been studied well. I can only find metallography of two haubergons from the period, one of which is very low carbon, the other of which is medium carbon.
Furthermore 9mm internal diameter links is far too large. In terms of what the Romans were using while the Pilum was in use, they were averaging smaller 5.5mm internal diameter links. The links get far, far stronger and thicker when their size increases in late antiquity. You can see a comparison in the research of Dr. Martijn Wijnhoven who published his PhD Thesis last year. And that's one of Todd's cheap reenactor hauberks because it's what he had available. Not one of his nice test pieces by Isak Krogh, Phil Parkes, or Sergei Simunin.
As for shields, again the material matters a lot. Rawhide behaves so much differently from tanned leather and people don't understand that. Nailing the rims also causes.... "microfractures" if you will in the rim and we just don't have evidence for it. Throw in that you can get higher density attachment (go look at the Vimose finds) with the extremely high density stitching they did in the period. It has a huge impact on leather belts because the stitching helps prevent the leather from stretching and tearing in high-stress areas like the transition from the strap to the tongue. The same logic probably applies to shields, but we need more data on that.
Michael is giving Graham a run for his money; fantastic work!
The fact that the pilum was able to glance off of the boss, gnarl the tip, and still be able to pierce the thickest part of the shield, the maille, and the gambeson, shows the absolute power behind the throw.
Also, I know that you made mention that these pila are heavier than the javelins that Michael is used to throwing; I hope that this is good strength training for him, or somehow get some other benefit towards his competitive throwing.
Excellent!! Really enjoy this one!
Learn't alot watching Micheals throwing technique in that he doesn't do a passing step with his right foot as he lets go of the pilum, he leaves his left foot stay forward althrough the motion and yet obviously still throws with alot of power. I always passed my right foot forward as i let the javelin go thinking this would result in a stronger throw. Would love to see a video of his method of throwing the pilum broken down into stages and explained how to best throw a pilum or javalin at a target straight in front.
Another great video.
Really enjoyable and educational video. It was fun seeing how much Michael was enjoying himself with this one. I will say I definitely underestimated the effectiveness of a pilum in breaking enemy charge.
One thing I’d love to see as well is a series of similar tests done with weapons used by opposing barbarians. One option would be the Francisca, the Germanic throwing axe used to break enemy shield walls and formations similar to this.
Great video, it’s one thing to know what a weapon is designed for, actually seeing it in action was incredible.
One thing I'd like to see is a realistic scenario. Ie a bunch of mannequins in standard formation, with Tom in between, with a shield and helmet, *then* trying to throw the spear.
Perhaps throwing at another group of mannequins with shields and helmets to see how that works out in reality (as close to).
A fun an in lightening presentation. Thanks
Great job guys. This video really shows how effective these things could be in expert hands. Happy Coronation Day to all of you over in the UK!
Very impressive throwing from Michael. Every attempt was either dead on accurate or damn close. Great work by tod on the pila as well, they held up through an impressive amount of punishment
Wonderfull video.
I very much appreciated you remembering that Vegetius wrote in the late empire, mostly about things that where no longer done or no longer done properly or well enought, for his taste.
Love this series! Thanks guys
Excellent-was waiting for this one👍
Just what I've been waiting for! Really looking forward to more videos on this topic.
You two are such an amazing duo. Great fun watching you.
Damn buddy!!
Nasty!!!
Michael and his skilz make a great addition
So cool to see likely how a trained Roman soldier would have successfully used this weapon!
Brilliant, thanks Tod.
Thank you for all of this great content. Understanding the reality of historical weapons and armor cannot be understated. :)
Fantastic video! Its great to finally visualise what Roman military tactics would of been like. Love to see more of it.
I am loving these tests, keep them coming!
Great fun and good research.