45:17 , the idea that God is the endstate of increasing complexity stands up pretty well to doubt and scrutiny. Also future scientific progress only strengthens this idea of god, rather than weakening it.
If a good and loving God exists, the Abba of Jesus, then, as Julia of Norwich told us, all shall be well, all manner of things shall be well. The suffering and death of every creature that ever existed, the seeming loss of every instance of the good and true and beautiful, everything apparently wrong or tragic in this world from its winding up to its winding down, will be transfigured, redeemed, and rewoven into a new creation where there is no pain or suffering or opposition or division, where all tears are wiped from our eyes, where the lion lies down peacefully, lovingly, with the lamb. THIS is what is at stake when we debate God's existence. It's one very understandable thing not to be able to believe in the truth of God's existence, but who in their right mind, who with even the slightest tender impulse in their heart, would not want it to be true more than anything else imaginable?
Lovely comment. I would respond by bringing in jordan peterson’s notion that Cain and Abel is the fundamental human story…I know an awful lot of people who actually want to make things “worse.” And I spent several years with that mindset so I can testify to its reality.
@@metamormonism Yes, totally agree. Why would someone kill his own brother over a sacrifice? It's because he had been stewing in a bad attitude for a long time. Sin repeatedly had been crouching at the door and repeatedly it overtook him.
@@redtrek2153and what is at the heart of that if not the insistence on individual existence. A psuedo existence that relies entirely on comparison with others and can never by definition be one with the infinity of being. It's not enough to seek to be worthy.. the ultimate sacrifice is of the only thing we think we have, our life. The death and hell in store for all those who would return to the garden is just the complete annihilation of the attachment to the non self.
When you say there is no singular apex that might be true but I don’t believe it. My top experience years ago was one of pure awareness, without a sense of being myself at all, like I was a ghost made of awareness, without memory or ego. I’ve had the emptiness experiences too and that’s one thing but this time instead of emptiness it was just Love and light. No time, no objects. I was not prepared for this experience at all and it left me confused and seeking interpretation for years. It can be interpreted into many definitions but these are just cultural containers compared to the “Big I Am.” It was beyond any boundaries or distinctions. It’s like I became the source of everything because I disappeared. I like this idea of the Jews that no one can see the face of G-d. Because God Himself doesn’t have a face. He has faces. Or maybe his face looks like Jesus, but that’s not the same person as the Father. This can be interpreted through Hinduism too of course but that is just another language for that real apex. Maybe I am wrong, but I don’t see how a state of being could be more than that or without that as a background or foundation, however hidden it may be behind Maya or Samsara. Or the fallen world. Etc. 😅
paused halfway to observe geometrically how free choice - and possibly free will from that - comes from a disc. Where it all starts with a shell that fragments to form tubes that become discs, and these transitions leaving the excess from not attaining shell again and compromising. Higher forms of life like humans have the free will collectively to enable a trampoline disc or a disc split into two like a figure 8 that wants to close into the perfect sphere. First People coming out of the clam. It's interesting to regard individual, collective, intent and power this way, with strength of collective in diversity of perspective that affords ideas and the perspective becoming streamlined for power that ultimately fragments. Onwards, thanks.
I feel the call of the meta-priestess! All I hope in this life is to experience the depth of love in it's many realized facets, and have the ability to eloquently acknowledge it with others in their own language.
Great discussion. I feel your call to action on the formation of meta theologians, priests, and priestesses resonates well with I've been developing in Agromancy's ritual body.
God = Life "Be-hold I am (Life) is come that you might have Life and have it more abundantly." Christ = at One with Life. Empty of ego (separateness) = Full of Life. Being aware of being aware is empty of ego. Holy Spirit = Eternally actualizing Infinite potential.
Now through a mirror clouded darkly, do we meekly gaze, Sight shrouded with shadow in this opaque maze. But a time shall come for clarity's light to dawn, As truth nears face-to-face, veils of mystery are gone. In this moment, a shard of knowledge gleams incomplete, A mere fragment of truth's vastness replete. Yet then, as fully known, verity shall be perceived, When in light of understanding, experientially received.
The question and answer at the hour mark, one can see plants as a less evolved (in terms of having free choice as individuals, thus free will as escaping from the collective object) disc expression where that trampoline they afford is underground for microbiology placed in shifting objects like the carbon cycle governing a square dance of objects in relational activity. Chemical fertilizers work well but it's a high wire act easily unbalanced, with side effects from marginalizing the biological. If plants embrace the Logos thru photosynthesis and unfold that for the Many with a humble manipulation where a hole like copper deficiency is filled by pulling down on the trampoline elsewhere, to avoid overbalancing, the many being the trampoline also with their own connection to the Logos including from the human gut. The free choice ties in here but is a juggling act between statistical expression recognized individually in their trampoline with the feeling of power from different levels, and lots of reverse psychology. Cheers. edit: the trampoline is the fungi governance interface in the underground world, for the plants and using microbiology, so humans are the equivalent for the animal kingdom which isn't happening enough under our governance. If these two were fulfilled, the excess from Gaia might attract a more evolved species which would help with interstellar travel maybe, in the interest of a galactic affordance that fills the supermassive black hole at the center by dancing.
Love this. “God” instead of God that is something short of the totality …are combinations of words that are a very good match for my embodied experience of G-? Thanks Brendan and Layman.
I appreciate Layman’s gentle unpacking of the problem of a God that is so transcendent that they are outside of reality. The process of becoming more real could be synonymous with the process of becoming more godlike. And so what does it mean to become more real?
"...workers who can operate cross-paradigmatically" this is exactly what I have been doing in my family. For that reason, I may be biased when I say this may articulate the most virtuous potential of metamodern Christianity.
I think the key to being able to do this is the same as the key to integrating all the different levels into a continuous and coherent fellowship: find the domain general principles that are common to them all and really be able to see them at each level. Also, crucially, have humility. Without humility, that belief in the insufficiency of your own beliefs, it is all going to crash against a wall. We have something important to learn from others, always, even if it's not immediately apparent. Often, there is a gestation period to insight.
45:17 , the idea that God is the endstate of increasing complexity stands up pretty well to doubt and scrutiny. Also future scientific progress only strengthens this idea of god, rather than weakening it.
Your questions were excellent. Thanks for making it interesting.
If a good and loving God exists, the Abba of Jesus, then, as Julia of Norwich told us, all shall be well, all manner of things shall be well. The suffering and death of every creature that ever existed, the seeming loss of every instance of the good and true and beautiful, everything apparently wrong or tragic in this world from its winding up to its winding down, will be transfigured, redeemed, and rewoven into a new creation where there is no pain or suffering or opposition or division, where all tears are wiped from our eyes, where the lion lies down peacefully, lovingly, with the lamb. THIS is what is at stake when we debate God's existence. It's one very understandable thing not to be able to believe in the truth of God's existence, but who in their right mind, who with even the slightest tender impulse in their heart, would not want it to be true more than anything else imaginable?
Lovely comment. I would respond by bringing in jordan peterson’s notion that Cain and Abel is the fundamental human story…I know an awful lot of people who actually want to make things “worse.” And I spent several years with that mindset so I can testify to its reality.
@@metamormonism Yes, totally agree. Why would someone kill his own brother over a sacrifice? It's because he had been stewing in a bad attitude for a long time. Sin repeatedly had been crouching at the door and repeatedly it overtook him.
@@redtrek2153and what is at the heart of that if not the insistence on individual existence. A psuedo existence that relies entirely on comparison with others and can never by definition be one with the infinity of being. It's not enough to seek to be worthy.. the ultimate sacrifice is of the only thing we think we have, our life.
The death and hell in store for all those who would return to the garden is just the complete annihilation of the attachment to the non self.
When you say there is no singular apex that might be true but I don’t believe it.
My top experience years ago was one of pure awareness, without a sense of being myself at all, like I was a ghost made of awareness, without memory or ego.
I’ve had the emptiness experiences too and that’s one thing but this time instead of emptiness it was just Love and light. No time, no objects.
I was not prepared for this experience at all and it left me confused and seeking interpretation for years. It can be interpreted into many definitions but these are just cultural containers compared to the “Big I Am.”
It was beyond any boundaries or distinctions. It’s like I became the source of everything because I disappeared. I like this idea of the Jews that no one can see the face of G-d. Because God Himself doesn’t have a face. He has faces.
Or maybe his face looks like Jesus, but that’s not the same person as the Father. This can be interpreted through Hinduism too of course but that is just another language for that real apex.
Maybe I am wrong, but I don’t see how a state of being could be more than that or without that as a background or foundation, however hidden it may be behind Maya or Samsara. Or the fallen world. Etc. 😅
It took me 40 years to understand a crucial experience that happened to me 40 years ago ;-)
paused halfway to observe geometrically how free choice - and possibly free will from that - comes from a disc. Where it all starts with a shell that fragments to form tubes that become discs, and these transitions leaving the excess from not attaining shell again and compromising. Higher forms of life like humans have the free will collectively to enable a trampoline disc or a disc split into two like a figure 8 that wants to close into the perfect sphere. First People coming out of the clam. It's interesting to regard individual, collective, intent and power this way, with strength of collective in diversity of perspective that affords ideas and the perspective becoming streamlined for power that ultimately fragments. Onwards, thanks.
Amazing dialogue, so much to launch off of and unpack !
I feel the call of the meta-priestess! All I hope in this life is to experience the depth of love in it's many realized facets, and have the ability to eloquently acknowledge it with others in their own language.
God(s) in the West have a tendency to sit above creation, and in the East as one with creation. Maybe the right answer is both.
Great discussion. I feel your call to action on the formation of meta theologians, priests, and priestesses resonates well with I've been developing in Agromancy's ritual body.
God, this resonates so hard.
Ohh, this is great.. so I'm not insane, I'm highly evolved! I knew it! 😅😉
God = Life
"Be-hold I am (Life) is come that you might have Life and have it more abundantly."
Christ = at One with Life.
Empty of ego (separateness) = Full of Life.
Being aware of being aware is empty of ego.
Holy Spirit = Eternally actualizing Infinite potential.
Now through a mirror clouded darkly, do we meekly gaze,
Sight shrouded with shadow in this opaque maze.
But a time shall come for clarity's light to dawn,
As truth nears face-to-face, veils of mystery are gone.
In this moment, a shard of knowledge gleams incomplete,
A mere fragment of truth's vastness replete.
Yet then, as fully known, verity shall be perceived,
When in light of understanding, experientially received.
The question and answer at the hour mark, one can see plants as a less evolved (in terms of having free choice as individuals, thus free will as escaping from the collective object) disc expression where that trampoline they afford is underground for microbiology placed in shifting objects like the carbon cycle governing a square dance of objects in relational activity. Chemical fertilizers work well but it's a high wire act easily unbalanced, with side effects from marginalizing the biological. If plants embrace the Logos thru photosynthesis and unfold that for the Many with a humble manipulation where a hole like copper deficiency is filled by pulling down on the trampoline elsewhere, to avoid overbalancing, the many being the trampoline also with their own connection to the Logos including from the human gut. The free choice ties in here but is a juggling act between statistical expression recognized individually in their trampoline with the feeling of power from different levels, and lots of reverse psychology. Cheers.
edit: the trampoline is the fungi governance interface in the underground world, for the plants and using microbiology, so humans are the equivalent for the animal kingdom which isn't happening enough under our governance. If these two were fulfilled, the excess from Gaia might attract a more evolved species which would help with interstellar travel maybe, in the interest of a galactic affordance that fills the supermassive black hole at the center by dancing.
It's such a privilege to listen to these conversations. "God" bless.
gotta respect the way this dude fully owns the satanic groomer vibe
45:28 this is fantastic! Thank you for the clarity in framing a metamodern conception of God
Pascal's Wager. Will anyone bite at 10 to 1 odds?
Thank you both for this talk.
Love this. “God” instead of God that is something short of the totality …are combinations of words that are a very good match for my embodied experience of G-? Thanks Brendan and Layman.
I appreciate Layman’s gentle unpacking of the problem of a God that is so transcendent that they are outside of reality. The process of becoming more real could be synonymous with the process of becoming more godlike. And so what does it mean to become more real?
To become more realized, perhaps
The intellectually lazy plead spiritual.
What does that mean?
@@BrendanGrahamDempsey Those who believe may know.
"...workers who can operate cross-paradigmatically" this is exactly what I have been doing in my family. For that reason, I may be biased when I say this may articulate the most virtuous potential of metamodern Christianity.
I think the key to being able to do this is the same as the key to integrating all the different levels into a continuous and coherent fellowship: find the domain general principles that are common to them all and really be able to see them at each level. Also, crucially, have humility. Without humility, that belief in the insufficiency of your own beliefs, it is all going to crash against a wall. We have something important to learn from others, always, even if it's not immediately apparent. Often, there is a gestation period to insight.
I am waiting for the puppet...
...also for Godot.
Needs more lobster and cow bell ;-)
The puppet waits inside us all