Coming out of protestantism, we do a lot of "let's listen to what the Holy Spirit is saying to us" in prayer. The problem with this is that it allows your imagination to take over. You get a lot of "I feel like the Lord said" out of it, but if God spoke to us during prayer it would be very clear. I have found focused Orthodox prayer so much more edifying to my soul.
Reminds me of a story my mom told me where people at her church would tell her "the Lord told me" or "the lord placed this on my heart" that God said her relationship with my dad (her fiance at the time) wasn't going to work out. Anyway, they've been married for over 35 years now.
This isn't allowed she shouldn't have done that. Honestly people say very inappropriate things. I'm sorry that happened. Someone yesterday told me that the Great Harvest was coming and that I had to get well or God couldn't use me. Dear Lord have mercy@@DanicusRex-m1m
I recently said to my bible study group something like: “We often fail to act because we don’t know what God wants us to do. But in the meantime we are absolutely certain of what God wants us to NOT do, but we do that anyway…”
It's just about our sensis is not mature enough your ear is not mature enough to hear God's voice it's not about imagination it's about "I am a child in the soul" So instead of praying for the holiness of my imagination I just go and run of it
I was never taught to use imagination while praying the rosary, but to focus on the life of Christ and the words i was saying. In my experience as a catholic I never was taught to use imagination for prayer, I didn't even realize it existed until recently. Personally I don't consider imaginative prayer as even prayer, it's something totally separate.
Hey friend. I was RCatholic. And I never heard that imagination in prayer is prohibited. We did in the high-school prayer with imagining. But it depends where you are brought up I guess.
Last summer and after an experience i had that scared me and which i won't go into detail, i called upon Mary for help. I called her name 3 times and she helped me so i decided to learn the ''Hail Mary'' and recite it every night before i sleep. The first night i said it i saw a dream with Mary dressed in white and 6 Angels, 3 on each side of her. They looked angry and they were talking to her about me saying i am a sinner and not worthy. She told them that i took the time to learn her prayer and then she praised me for that. I woke up in the morning but i didn't feel happy, i felt uneasy in my heart and troubled that Mary would appear to me and praise me for doing something so simple. And then it came to me, it wasn't Mary. It was Satan who wanted to boost my ego and pride and turn this around by deceiving me into thinking i was so special that Mary herself praised me. I am a Greek Orthodox and just wanted to share this with all of you to back up what the Father is saying about dreams and imagination.
Priestmonk Kosmas from Orthodox talks says kids raised with the TV cant distinguish acting and fantasy from reality. It warps the minds. Its not entertainment for them but rather something they want to emulate. He also says it hardens our emotions since weve seen so many "deaths" and other intense scenes. He was saying that one person he spoke to didnt feel much when his mom died, Kosmas said "do i need to play some music for you to feel?". Thats where our society is.
I grew up Roman Catholic imagination was huge in our Southern Italian Family myths , psychic abilities and yes Santa Claus and The Easter Bunny . I stopped believing in both of them at age 12 but it crushed me inside.
In protestantism I was taught that I must imagine first and then pray for it, and that I should even pray for anything unless I can’t “see it” first in my mind.
Oh yeah, I once talked to an Eastern Orthodox monk who had been a Jesuit and he explained how eastern traditions are not incompatible with the Jesuit exercises. For him the problem was not the imagination and directions but the fact the spiritual father would use the inspirations and consolations to reinforce Catholic faith.
Even Ignatius of Loyola says to not seek out visions and dreams and if you have any, even if it truly be of God, your first reaction should be to question it because if it's of God he will make it clear
See this and other articles from Jesuits on the Ignatian use of imagination www.ignatianspirituality.com/ignatian-prayer/the-spiritual-exercises/pray-with-your-imagination/
@@eldermillennial8330 I myself have a mind that works in pictures. I have found picturing the words you are saying (especially on the Jesus prayer, because there is no book to focus on) can be helpful to keep your mind focused on just the prayer alone. This isn’t easy and i still find myself drifting off on other thoughts on occasion. But persevere because concentration will grow stronger. I hope this has been of some help. Peace be with you and God bless.
2:14 Excuse me Fr. but this has so many implications. Why does God command Adam and Eve to replenish the earth before they had the means to do so? Does this mean sexual organs did not exist? Didn't the distinction of male and female exist before the fall? Mammary glands to nurse infants? What does Adam mean when he says a man shall be joined to his wife and become one flesh? To be clear, I don't say that I disagree, but these kinds of assertions have logical conclusions that need to be addressed, in my view. Do you happen to have a video on this topic?
Foreknowledge and fore-planning on the part of God. Yes, the had the same physiology. Yes, the distinction existed. Read the patristic literature, such as St. Basil the Great or St. John Chrysostom. This article is a good place to start: pemptousia.com/2013/09/21273/
You can read about this in Fr Seraphim Rose's book "Genesis, Creation and Early Man". Here's some excerpts from it... St. John Damascene: “Virginity was practiced in Paradise... After the fall, to keep the race from dwindling and being destroyed by death, marriage was devised, so that by the begetting of children the race of men might be preserved. But they may ask: What, then, does "male and female" mean, and "increase and multiply"? To which we shall reply that the "increase and multiply'' does not mean increasing by the marriage union exclusively, because if they had kept the commandment unbroken forever, God could have increased the race by some other means.* But, since God, Who knows all things before they come to be, saw by His foreknowledge how they were to fall and be condemned to death, He made provision beforehand by creating them male and female and commanding them to increase and multiply. St. Athanasius: "The original intention of God was for us to generate not by marriage and corruption. But the transgression of the commandment introduced marriage on account of the lawless act of Adam .... Thus the Psalmist shows, because from the beginning the nature of man had fallen under sin by the transgression in Eve, and under the curse did procreation come about.” St. John Chrysostom: “After the disobedience, after the banishment from Paradise-then it was that married life began. Before the disobedience, the first people lived like angels and there was no talk of cohabitation… "Now Adam knew Eve his wife." Consider when this happened. After the disobedience, after their loss in the Garden, then it was that the practice of intercourse had its beginning. You see, before their disobedience they followed a life like that of the angels, and there was no mention of intercourse. How could there be, when they were not subject to the needs of the body?... Why did marriage not appear before the disobedience? Why was there no intercourse in Paradise? Why not the pains of childbirth before the curse? Because at that time these things were superfluous. The necessity arose later because of our weakness, as did cities, arts and skills, the wearing of clothes, and all our other numerous needs.” Fr Seraphim Rose: “The Fathers do raise the question: how would children have been born if Adam had not fallen? They say that children would have been born in a way that God knew, but not according to this way we have now,* which, as St. Gregory of Nyssa discusses, is bound up with our animal nature. This [the sexual mode of reproduction] will not be in the Paradise to come, and was not in the original Paradise… In the prevailing view of the Holy Fathers, among the bodily needs that man acquired at the fall was the need to procreate sexually.” Editor: “The command that man "be fruitful and multiply'' refers in one sense to the means of increasing the human race chat God would have employed if man had not fallen, and in another sense it is as an expression of God's foreknowledge of the sexual procreation chat would be introduced into human life through the fall… According to Sts. Athanasius the Great (Commentary on the Psalms [Psalm 50:5], see below), Gregory of Nyssa (On the Making of Man 1 7), John Chrysostom (On Virginity 1 4-1 5), Maximus the Confessor (Ambigua 41), John Damascene (On the Orthodox Faith 4.24), and Symeon of Thessaloniki (On the Sacraments 38), if man had not fallen, God would have employed a means of increasing the human race other than sexual reproduction. In the West, Blessed Augustine held a view contrary to this common teaching of the Eastern Holy Fathers. He did affirm along with all the other Fathers that Adam and Eve did not have sexual relations before the fall; however, according to him this was either because they did not have time or because they were waiting for a specific command from God (Literal Meaning of Genesis 9; City of God 1 4.26). Thomas Aquinas was later to refer to this teaching of Augustine when arguing for the idea that sexual reproduction was "natural to man" in his original condition (Summa Theologica, part 1, question 98, article 2).... St. Maximus observes that the virginal birth of Christ showed that "there was perhaps another way, foreknown to God, for human beings to increase, if the first human being had kept the commandment" (Ambigua 41, in [Fr.] Andrew Louth, Maximus the Confessor, p. 1 59), while St. Gregory of Nyssa suggests that if man had remained in his original, angel-like condition, God would have increased the human race according to the mode by which He multiplied the number of angels-a mode which is "unspeakable and inconceivable by human conjectures, except that it assuredly exists" (On the Making of Man 1 7.2, NPNF 2 5, p. 407)... ”
Fr. Heers, please consider doing a video on the fallacy of memorialism. Orthodox understand the Eucharist as a “memorial sacrifice” as far as I know, and absolutely in the real presence of Christ in the bread and the wine. This is not how I was raised so I would appreciate and explanation on this topic from a priest - on the passage of “in remembrance of me” vs “this is my body…”
I think the issue is a bit more nuanced than what is usually presented in regard to this subject. There’s a clear difference in patristic writings between meditative prayer upon the scriptures (which invariably requires some type of visualization) and what we would call “fantasy”. Recalling an icon of our Lord walking upon the water is one thing; fantasizing that you are walking with our Lord on the water is quite another.
I got it when you saying about imagination in prayer. But in kids education? Imagination is one of crutial compnents of cognitive development and education. Why that needs to be limited?
Imagination demands reality to draw from. So when you're a young child you don't know reality and can't distinguish the two. Acting in a movie vs reality of a documentary.
@@David-ml1be basically imagination originates as musthave self-save structure after child is born and develops during early age: 3 to 5 years as a proccess that allow kid generally to Play. And through game child's cognitive sphere forms. Later on imagination is needed both for planning and emotion regulation, as well as modelling and creating anything from text to visual images. Limiting imagination for kids under 15 for sure will have negative impact on his/her mind later on. I dont mean you should pump up kids with Harry Potter or something like video games though that wont even develop anything. Quite opposite: they need to listen tails and stories with And without visuals, paint, draw, play, engage with new objects and situations. All of that highly involve imagination. One won't really grow much closer to God by being mindcrippled. Though I will ephesize that I agree that imagination needs to be controlled. It's a skill that needs its own development. And prayer situation is exactly one that have to be the field of that development, and not only that.
We had a discussion the other day about this….. no sexual relationship between Adam & Eve before the fall. But before the fall, in my Orthodox Study Bible it states that God created them and told them to be fruitful and multiply. So how was the multiplying supposed to happen?
How do we pray without imagination if we struggle with intrusive thoughts? Often times trying to resist the urge to not picure images in my head just makes it more difficult; like trying not to think of pink elephants.
Western Rite ideal is to transition back to pre-Carolingian forms of Western Prayer, in the long term. How quickly this is to be done is a point of disagreement between the ROCOR & Antioch Vicariates, but much can be learned by both experimenting towards this goal in different ways. To the extent that western traditions can be adapted to be less imaginative is also part of it.
Let's put it this way, considering everyone is just giving the usual canned responses that aren't helpful at all. First off, the definition of prayer between East and West is very different. The East particularly means bringing the mind to God. It's very specific. Very very very specific. Prayer usually isn't used to talk about reading scripture, getting your nous warmed up to pray, or any of the other spiritual activities you actually need to do to pray properly. For the West? All of the above is prayer. They lump it all together, and nobody talks about it The word "imagination" is used also pretty badly. There's two forms of it: the "imaging" part, where you can purposefully build a picture in your mind. It's a ridiculously useful function of the brain, and it's what's usually engaged in reading and playing games like DnD. This is a good function of the brain. Evagrius in the Philokalia openly advises imagining the fires of Hell and the joys of Heaven before you actually pray. The imagination is useful to get yourself focused, but once you actually start praying you stop imaging... in an Eastern context. For the West, that act of imaging, which is a universal function of East and West and anyone who says different is wrong, is prayer as well. But then there's phantasms, fantasy. See the problem in English? And that's the stuff that just pops into your head, without your assent. Phantasms are bad. Very bad. You don't want them. And, true to the fact that East and West actually are doing the same thing with different words, nobody wants phantasms. There's the nuance the uberdox won't give you, because they're too busy trumpeting their own nonsensical hamfisted yammerings as the "teachings of the Fathers".
This guys doesn't know that some guided prayers of the latin west tell you to imagine yourself in hell or the virgin mary doing something What are you anyways?
The active use of the imagination in prayer is discouraged by all of the Pre-Schism saints and Fathers (and by all Orthodox saints after the Schism). Yes, brief reflection on the Final Judgment and other themes prior to prayer is recommended to develop contrition of heart but it is one thing to reflect on a sobering theme and another to try to picture and imagine these things. The active use of the imagination as recommended in the Ignatian Exercises, of picturing yourself in the stories of the Scriptures or in the events of the life of Christ and the Theotokos, and to lose yourself in such imaginings, is not at all consistent with the teachings of the saints before the Schism.
I literally just described the difference in regards to the word being used for "prayer," in the East vs West. Many post schism western saints would agree that contemplation shouldn't use imagination either. They would also say reading the Bible for spiritual edification is prayer too tho
@@dp34576 I like your distinction, “phantasms” a lot better. My autism is mild compared to my Niece, who I’m convinced does not think in words at all. A mind like that is built in the opposite way that the patristic ideal is recommending, IF the English has been correctly applied to the Greek concepts, but you make me wonder. I worry about her spiritual life & I don’t think she can’t not be imaginative if she can’t even think in words! Or is simply remembering images distinct from “imagining”? If I’m simply remembering scriptural truths when pondering the rosary with my mother (We are Western Rite converts from Papism & she simply can’t seem to get used to Pater Nostar Beads), is that different from having the events of that scripture play out I in my head like Movie?
Father Peter, I hope to understand this better for parenting. When I was a child, my dad would gather us around and improvise fantastical, funny stories, and I had hoped to carry that on for my own children. But would you advise against this?
I am confused on why Fr. Seraphim insulted or "called out" Fr. Schmemann in his OSC. It appears Fr. Seraphim was quite holy but i dont understand why he did that, considering Fr. Schmemann always held the Orthodox Church is the only true Church, and that us engaging in dialogue with the heterodox was almost purely for their conversion.
That's an interesting point. Similar to how if our imagination runs wild when thinking of someone else we create our own version of them in our mind that is different from how they actually are. Possible trap of loving what we envision of something/someone instead of who they actually are (so not the truth).
Have a question?For pleasure we can see it chronologically but about the appearance of imagination after the fall where can we find it in holy scripture.
When people finally realise that the Orthodox Saints are the only ones able to explain things we don't understand, we will finally stop playing the game “where is it written in the Bible, oh it is not, therefore I will dismiss you”. In the original Hebrew and Greek texts of the Bible, the terms directly equivalent to the modern English words "fantasy" and "imagination" are not explicitly used in the context of negative or positive connotations as we understand them today. However, the Bible does address the human mind, thoughts, and inclinations in various ways. For example, the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) uses words like "yetzer" (יֵצֶר) to refer to the inclinations or thoughts of the human heart. This term is often associated with both positive and negative aspects of human nature, and its interpretation can vary. In the Greek New Testament, words like "dianoia" (διάνοια) and "logismos" (λογισμός) are used to convey thoughts and reasonings. The interpretation of these terms depends on the specific context in which they appear. If we are still blind and we haven't changed our lives in order to be worthy enough to receive a speckle of the Holy Spirit within, how do we expect to interpret the Bible? With all those sets of biases, justifications, entitlements, ego, and blindness, how do we even dare think we are in a position to interpret anything? The difference between Saints and common humans is this: they were people just like you and me until they decided that the only thing that matters is their relationship with God. And they cultivated it. They have experienced it. We just mumble and theorize, being in love with the idea of “understanding” everything. But do we understand or just simplify and then divide instead? We keep acting like university students who haven't acquired knowledge yet but theory. Saints have both. The Holy Spirit taught them. Not their imagination. Read their lives if you haven't already, and you will understand what it takes! You will start seeing the patterns. They didn't just read the Bible like a manual! First, they implemented and they were taught as they went. Then they experienced. They BECAME the Bible. They received parts of Logos. They became One with it. They experienced more than what the human brain can explain in any form. It is our job to pray and ask God to enlighten us. It is our job to pray and ask God to clean us. Every time I tried to use my logic in order to understand, I failed. But whenever I asked God to show me instead, He did. It doesn't matter how long it took me to understand the message. But there was and is always a message that did not stem by imagination.
@@LadyMaria Are you denying that Patriarch John 10 & all we of Antioch are legitimately Orthodox for taking a nuanced approach instead of a hard reset to 1066? Could you please review the extensive notes of the Antioch Synod that established the Vicariate in the 50s before presuming that we are little better than Scrantonite Old Catholics (which actually are the next best possible thing outside Orthodoxy)? I no longer use any form of the Sacred Heart prayer, & have gotten my family used to ignoring it, but this is primarily because of the baggage. It’s not because there is not a very early none nestoian-ish version, there is, but then I realized that the baggage involved in defending prayer that is just the musing of a pious troubadour from 1100 or so, just is not worth it.
@@eldermillennial8330 That's a bit much for me just saying those things aren't Orthodox. If you're going to rant, rant at the original commenter, not me. Enjoy your night.
Using imagination in prayer is like talking to God without looking at His eyes, disrespectful way of communication with God and it lead our hearts to be not watchful, not paying attention.
Gen 1:27 LXX And God made man, according to the image of God he made him, male and female he made them. 28 And *God blessed them, saying, Increase and multiply,* and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the seas and flying creatures of heaven, and all the cattle and all the earth, and all the reptiles that creep on the earth. If there was no prefall procreation, why did God instruct Adam an Eve to multiply?
I wonder if perhaps they would have had a sort of holy and "passionless passion" sexual intercourse in due time had the fall not happened first. I'm assuming the physical organs did not change and as you point out the Divine ontology lines up with that. But regardless of the command and perfect will of God, we know they did fall before they reproduced so the father is correct to say this, one way or another.
Good question. There is no mention of procreation until after the fall but the command to multiply was prior to. Procreation doesn't happen until Genesis 4. Perhaps the church Fathers cover this and that's what Fr. Peter is referring.
@savvasbournelis8401 Assertion means very little when it comes to establishing truth, especially when the assertion appears to contradict the foundation in which the assertion claims to defend.
The Fathers say that had the Fall not occurred, the command to “be fruitful and multiply” would have occurred without the pleasure of sexual relations nor the pain of childbirth.
I thought I heard there was disagreement among the saints whether or not sexuality did or would have exsisted before the fall. I know most saints are monastics so I would expect the general idea would be that it wasnt, would tend to be more popular. If the church has not specifically ruled on this it may be better to leave it ambiguous.
You can read about this in Fr Seraphim Rose's book "Genesis, Creation and Early Man". Here's some excerpts from it... St. John Damascene: “Virginity was practiced in Paradise... After the fall, to keep the race from dwindling and being destroyed by death, marriage was devised, so that by the begetting of children the race of men might be preserved. But they may ask: What, then, does "male and female" mean, and "increase and multiply"? To which we shall reply that the "increase and multiply'' does not mean increasing by the marriage union exclusively, because if they had kept the commandment unbroken forever, God could have increased the race by some other means.* But, since God, Who knows all things before they come to be, saw by His foreknowledge how they were to fall and be condemned to death, He made provision beforehand by creating them male and female and commanding them to increase and multiply. St. Athanasius: "The original intention of God was for us to generate not by marriage and corruption. But the transgression of the commandment introduced marriage on account of the lawless act of Adam .... Thus the Psalmist shows, because from the beginning the nature of man had fallen under sin by the transgression in Eve, and under the curse did procreation come about.” St. John Chrysostom: “After the disobedience, after the banishment from Paradise-then it was that married life began. Before the disobedience, the first people lived like angels and there was no talk of cohabitation… "Now Adam knew Eve his wife." Consider when this happened. After the disobedience, after their loss in the Garden, then it was that the practice of intercourse had its beginning. You see, before their disobedience they followed a life like that of the angels, and there was no mention of intercourse. How could there be, when they were not subject to the needs of the body?... Why did marriage not appear before the disobedience? Why was there no intercourse in Paradise? Why not the pains of childbirth before the curse? Because at that time these things were superfluous. The necessity arose later because of our weakness, as did cities, arts and skills, the wearing of clothes, and all our other numerous needs.” Fr Seraphim Rose: “The Fathers do raise the question: how would children have been born if Adam had not fallen? They say that children would have been born in a way that God knew, but not according to this way we have now,* which, as St. Gregory of Nyssa discusses, is bound up with our animal nature. This [the sexual mode of reproduction] will not be in the Paradise to come, and was not in the original Paradise… In the prevailing view of the Holy Fathers, among the bodily needs that man acquired at the fall was the need to procreate sexually.” Editor: “The command that man "be fruitful and multiply'' refers in one sense to the means of increasing the human race chat God would have employed if man had not fallen, and in another sense it is as an expression of God's foreknowledge of the sexual procreation chat would be introduced into human life through the fall… According to Sts. Athanasius the Great (Commentary on the Psalms [Psalm 50:5], see below), Gregory of Nyssa (On the Making of Man 1 7), John Chrysostom (On Virginity 1 4-1 5), Maximus the Confessor (Ambigua 41), John Damascene (On the Orthodox Faith 4.24), and Symeon of Thessaloniki (On the Sacraments 38), if man had not fallen, God would have employed a means of increasing the human race other than sexual reproduction. In the West, Blessed Augustine held a view contrary to this common teaching of the Eastern Holy Fathers. He did affirm along with all the other Fathers that Adam and Eve did not have sexual relations before the fall; however, according to him this was either because they did not have time or because they were waiting for a specific command from God (Literal Meaning of Genesis 9; City of God 1 4.26). Thomas Aquinas was later to refer to this teaching of Augustine when arguing for the idea that sexual reproduction was "natural to man" in his original condition (Summa Theologica, part 1, question 98, article 2).... St. Maximus observes that the virginal birth of Christ showed that "there was perhaps another way, foreknown to God, for human beings to increase, if the first human being had kept the commandment" (Ambigua 41, in [Fr.] Andrew Louth, Maximus the Confessor, p. 1 59), while St. Gregory of Nyssa suggests that if man had remained in his original, angel-like condition, God would have increased the human race according to the mode by which He multiplied the number of angels-a mode which is "unspeakable and inconceivable by human conjectures, except that it assuredly exists" (On the Making of Man 1 7.2, NPNF 2 5, p. 407)... ”
I agree that sexual relations didn't come about until after the fall, but I have to ask why? Didn't God tell Adam even before the fall to be fruitful and multiply?
You can read about this in Fr Seraphim Rose's book "Genesis, Creation and Early Man". Here's some excerpts from it... St. John Damascene: “Virginity was practiced in Paradise... After the fall, to keep the race from dwindling and being destroyed by death, marriage was devised, so that by the begetting of children the race of men might be preserved. But they may ask: What, then, does "male and female" mean, and "increase and multiply"? To which we shall reply that the "increase and multiply'' does not mean increasing by the marriage union exclusively, because if they had kept the commandment unbroken forever, God could have increased the race by some other means.* But, since God, Who knows all things before they come to be, saw by His foreknowledge how they were to fall and be condemned to death, He made provision beforehand by creating them male and female and commanding them to increase and multiply. St. Athanasius: "The original intention of God was for us to generate not by marriage and corruption. But the transgression of the commandment introduced marriage on account of the lawless act of Adam .... Thus the Psalmist shows, because from the beginning the nature of man had fallen under sin by the transgression in Eve, and under the curse did procreation come about.” St. John Chrysostom: “After the disobedience, after the banishment from Paradise-then it was that married life began. Before the disobedience, the first people lived like angels and there was no talk of cohabitation… "Now Adam knew Eve his wife." Consider when this happened. After the disobedience, after their loss in the Garden, then it was that the practice of intercourse had its beginning. You see, before their disobedience they followed a life like that of the angels, and there was no mention of intercourse. How could there be, when they were not subject to the needs of the body?... Why did marriage not appear before the disobedience? Why was there no intercourse in Paradise? Why not the pains of childbirth before the curse? Because at that time these things were superfluous. The necessity arose later because of our weakness, as did cities, arts and skills, the wearing of clothes, and all our other numerous needs.” Fr Seraphim Rose: “The Fathers do raise the question: how would children have been born if Adam had not fallen? They say that children would have been born in a way that God knew, but not according to this way we have now,* which, as St. Gregory of Nyssa discusses, is bound up with our animal nature. This [the sexual mode of reproduction] will not be in the Paradise to come, and was not in the original Paradise… In the prevailing view of the Holy Fathers, among the bodily needs that man acquired at the fall was the need to procreate sexually.” Editor: “The command that man "be fruitful and multiply'' refers in one sense to the means of increasing the human race chat God would have employed if man had not fallen, and in another sense it is as an expression of God's foreknowledge of the sexual procreation chat would be introduced into human life through the fall… According to Sts. Athanasius the Great (Commentary on the Psalms [Psalm 50:5], see below), Gregory of Nyssa (On the Making of Man 1 7), John Chrysostom (On Virginity 1 4-1 5), Maximus the Confessor (Ambigua 41), John Damascene (On the Orthodox Faith 4.24), and Symeon of Thessaloniki (On the Sacraments 38), if man had not fallen, God would have employed a means of increasing the human race other than sexual reproduction. In the West, Blessed Augustine held a view contrary to this common teaching of the Eastern Holy Fathers. He did affirm along with all the other Fathers that Adam and Eve did not have sexual relations before the fall; however, according to him this was either because they did not have time or because they were waiting for a specific command from God (Literal Meaning of Genesis 9; City of God 1 4.26). Thomas Aquinas was later to refer to this teaching of Augustine when arguing for the idea that sexual reproduction was "natural to man" in his original condition (Summa Theologica, part 1, question 98, article 2).... St. Maximus observes that the virginal birth of Christ showed that "there was perhaps another way, foreknown to God, for human beings to increase, if the first human being had kept the commandment" (Ambigua 41, in [Fr.] Andrew Louth, Maximus the Confessor, p. 1 59), while St. Gregory of Nyssa suggests that if man had remained in his original, angel-like condition, God would have increased the human race according to the mode by which He multiplied the number of angels-a mode which is "unspeakable and inconceivable by human conjectures, except that it assuredly exists" (On the Making of Man 1 7.2, NPNF 2 5, p. 407)... ”
Fr Heers, you said the st Joseph the Hesychast said do not believe dreams, yet after seeing a demon in the floorboards, st Joseph had a dream that same night telling him that the new Calendar is ok. How could that be the reason that the church accepts the calendar switch? Jesus knew exactly why he died on the day that was chosen. We did not need to correct it by 13 days. It was not a man of divine grace who created the calendar, how is it accepted by the Orthodox church? Those who accept this change are technically heretics.
His dream did not pertain to the rightness or wrongness of the calendar change but to the rightness of the method or stance or decisions of those opposing it -- whether their decisions vis-a-vis the Church of Greece (non-recognition of Mysteries, etc.) were blessed and patristic. The calendar the Church follows for Pascha has not changed. The calendar the Church has followed for 1.5 millennium (and still follows in most of the Local Churches) was not created by a man of divine grace but by a pagan. A change in the calendar is not a change in dogma; it is not a dogmatic matter and thus not a heretical matter. It may well be an innovation and one done for dishonorable or deceptive intentions, but this does not make it heresy.
Maybe rosary shaped rope but that should be that, not more Some western rite parishes are known to be very problematic (have sacred heart veneration and everything, basically all heresies of latin mass papists except papism itself) This is common thing I've heard in the past
Imagination did not come after the fall. How could Adam come up with names for the animals without imagination? How could Eve understand what the serpent meant when she was told that she would be like God if she lacked imagination?
Um, to imply that sexual intercourse was an after thought would be to say that God's perfect design was for a less than good purpose? God saw that it (all) was very good....? Not a statement more a question. Thank you for your wisdom either way Fr.
😊 Saint Peter had a dream from the Lord he was eating pig flesh I'm watching it down with dairy and he was perplexed he thought it couldn't have been from God what's the meaning behind it was don't be afraid to break bread with the gentiles if you are to spread the good news about our Lord and savior. Sometimes dreams have meanings and you just can't help them it's up to us to discern them and what they mean
Well, when I started to pray, and due to not knowing how to pray properly i used to imagine Christ, Theotokos and Saints. Suddenly very ugly pictures started to appear. I think thats free lesson not to do that!!!
Definitely not. See this and other articles from Jesuits on the Ignatian use of imagination www.ignatianspirituality.com/ignatian-prayer/the-spiritual-exercises/pray-with-your-imagination/
@@OrthodoxEthos I understand our imaginations much like our hearts shouldn't be allowed to roam and influence our spirit. I just don't quite understand how using one's imagination to place themselves in a state of anamnesis with Christ. Like for example to imagine the pains and sorrows Our Lord and Blessed Lady suffered in Christ's passion. For example how when Christ was buried how Our Mother was tenderly loving and wrapping her beloved Son one final time, how instead of swaddling clothes and a manger she now wraps him in burial cloth and lays him in a tomb and how the heart of Our Mother was truly thrashed as she suffered this all with silence and humility. I know that you said God can sanctify and purify the proper use of imagination, I just don't quite understand how an example of said imaginative contemplation can be a negative or worldly use of said imagination, especially if it generates a true repentance and causes one to search for Christ and his truth with even more fervor than before.
Carholics: the devil has power over the imagination Orthodox: thr devil has power over the imagination Catholics: that's why we must occupy the imagination with holy images Orthodox: that's why we must not engage the imagination Its amazing how we can start with the same premise and draw opposite conclusions about what to do. But i suppose the Orthodox dont have a faustina kowalska and a witch of a pope saying his predecessors just didn't understand the Polish when they called her new devotion "theologically inconsistent"
I was very interested to watch this video until it immediately entered into a sidekick to Catholics. It makes me wonder if you are originally Calvinist or Lutheran or some such belief of the Protestants then an Orthodox Convert. It seems evident by the Sacred Icons and Orthodox Church Architecture that the Orthodox Church are Masters of the Redemption of the Imagination. The imagination is a beautiful gift of God that can be misused by sin.
Total and complete misunderstanding of St. Ignatius Spiritual Exercises which views imagaination and memories as a gift. All prayer is preceded by the Suspice prayer to give God your mind, intellect, memories and will to use for God's Kingdom. Likewise to avoid self delusion, Jesuits use a spiritual director to help with discernment of the spirits in one's prayer life and choices in life. Just another rant against Roman Catholicism without seeing the blessings and presence of God in 1.5 billion Catholics. I pray for the reunification of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic faiths that have so much to share and give one another.
Numbers mean nothing. C'mon now. Biblically speaking, how many were saved at the flood? How many out of Sodom and Gomorrah? How many entered the promised land? The path is broad. You pray for the reunification only under the Pope. It will never happen. I perfectly understood what he was saying. But you have just another rant against Orthodoxy to bring us all under a fallible man who usurps Christ's position.
Is the “Ignatian Spirituality” website and its articles by Jesuits false as well? www.ignatianspirituality.com/ignatian-prayer/the-spiritual-exercises/pray-with-your-imagination/
@@OrthodoxEthos Within Roman Catholicism every religious order has a charism based upon the unique prayer methods used. For example the Benedictines and Trappist the charism is humility. For Dominicans the Order of Preachers and Scholasticism the charism is Truth as they preach against heresies. For St.Franciscans Joy. For Jesuits, love. There are 360 spiritual exercises in Ignatius Spiritual Exercises based upon a synthesis of 15 centuries of monasticism and takes a lifetime to master. The premise is: if Christians offered the world the love of Christ, the world would convert. Jesuits are missionaries and brought half of Africa, Latin America, the Philippines, and French Canada into Roman Catholicism in 500 years. The reason people don't convert is Christians are not offering the love of Christ, but instead ether the ego, or a false religion that judges and condemns rather than healing and saving. There are four weeks of the exercises, the first focuses on Sin. Probably 80% of Christians remain stuck in this first stage of converting to becoming Christ. They judge and cannot forgive themselves or others. Entire religions can be stuck. The second week is the Call to love and be loved. The person wrestles with the ego, but begins the practice on meditating on the life of Christ. The imagination is involved as well as regular visits with a spiritual director to discern if one is listening to ego, self or others, or good or evil spirits. The 3rd week is the Crucifixion which only God can move someone into this week. The goal is to remain at the foot of the cross as a spiritual discipline and never abandon Christ. A good spiritual director does not abandon the person coming to them for help because they cannot handle to persons woundedness. This week is regarded as contemplation or being with Christ. The last week is focusing on the Resurrection. The resurrected Christ lives in us now. We are the body of the resurrected Christ as a church. Lots to reflect upon. Few people reach this stage early on in life. The website you are viewing is meditations written mostly by college students still in the early stages of conversion or first week. The Jesuits who have written are mentoring these students at the level they are at. I hope this helps. That said, I truly hope and pray the Orthodox are able to bring the non Christian world to Christ. I believe it is part of God's plan.
Coming out of protestantism, we do a lot of "let's listen to what the Holy Spirit is saying to us" in prayer. The problem with this is that it allows your imagination to take over. You get a lot of "I feel like the Lord said" out of it, but if God spoke to us during prayer it would be very clear. I have found focused Orthodox prayer so much more edifying to my soul.
Reminds me of a story my mom told me where people at her church would tell her "the Lord told me" or "the lord placed this on my heart" that God said her relationship with my dad (her fiance at the time) wasn't going to work out. Anyway, they've been married for over 35 years now.
This isn't allowed she shouldn't have done that. Honestly people say very inappropriate things. I'm sorry that happened. Someone yesterday told me that the Great Harvest was coming and that I had to get well or God couldn't use me. Dear Lord have mercy@@DanicusRex-m1m
I recently said to my bible study group something like:
“We often fail to act because we don’t know what God wants us to do. But in the meantime we are absolutely certain of what God wants us to NOT do, but we do that anyway…”
Agreed!
It's just about our sensis is not mature enough your ear is not mature enough to hear God's voice it's not about imagination it's about "I am a child in the soul"
So instead of praying for the holiness of my imagination I just go and run of it
I was never taught to use imagination while praying the rosary, but to focus on the life of Christ and the words i was saying. In my experience as a catholic I never was taught to use imagination for prayer, I didn't even realize it existed until recently. Personally I don't consider imaginative prayer as even prayer, it's something totally separate.
Hey friend. I was RCatholic. And I never heard that imagination in prayer is prohibited. We did in the high-school prayer with imagining. But it depends where you are brought up I guess.
some of us are blessed with the the firsthand devastation that trusting one’s own distorted imagination can bring.
Last summer and after an experience i had that scared me and which i won't go into detail, i called upon Mary for help. I called her name 3 times and she helped me so i decided to learn the ''Hail Mary'' and recite it every night before i sleep. The first night i said it i saw a dream with Mary dressed in white and 6 Angels, 3 on each side of her. They looked angry and they were talking to her about me saying i am a sinner and not worthy. She told them that i took the time to learn her prayer and then she praised me for that. I woke up in the morning but i didn't feel happy, i felt uneasy in my heart and troubled that Mary would appear to me and praise me for doing something so simple. And then it came to me, it wasn't Mary. It was Satan who wanted to boost my ego and pride and turn this around by deceiving me into thinking i was so special that Mary herself praised me. I am a Greek Orthodox and just wanted to share this with all of you to back up what the Father is saying about dreams and imagination.
He comes sometimes as an angel of light.
Priestmonk Kosmas from Orthodox talks says kids raised with the TV cant distinguish acting and fantasy from reality. It warps the minds. Its not entertainment for them but rather something they want to emulate. He also says it hardens our emotions since weve seen so many "deaths" and other intense scenes. He was saying that one person he spoke to didnt feel much when his mom died, Kosmas said "do i need to play some music for you to feel?". Thats where our society is.
Every word you are saying is crucial. Thank you very much father!
Thats why also where stigmas in RCC come from.
I grew up Roman Catholic imagination was huge in our Southern Italian Family myths , psychic abilities and yes Santa Claus and The Easter Bunny . I stopped believing in both of them at age 12 but it crushed me inside.
Always supporting your channel brother ☦️🇬🇷
Saw and replied to this post the other day on IG. Appreciate the deeper insight on this issue. Thankyou.
In protestantism I was taught that I must imagine first and then pray for it, and that I should even pray for anything unless I can’t “see it” first in my mind.
Thank you father
As a Roman Catholic who prays a daily Rosary, I have always resisted trying to visualize or imagine the mysteries during the prayers.
I pray the rosary daily without the mysteries. They aren't necessary.
Very edifying.
Oh yeah, I once talked to an Eastern Orthodox monk who had been a Jesuit and he explained how eastern traditions are not incompatible with the Jesuit exercises. For him the problem was not the imagination and directions but the fact the spiritual father would use the inspirations and consolations to reinforce Catholic faith.
Thank you Pater 🙏
Such an interesting topic. 🙏
You are my Father 💪🏻☦️🇺🇸
Hi father Peter. Is there an english book on the Life of Saint Paul that you would recommend? thank you 💙
Even Ignatius of Loyola says to not seek out visions and dreams and if you have any, even if it truly be of God, your first reaction should be to question it because if it's of God he will make it clear
See this and other articles from Jesuits on the Ignatian use of imagination www.ignatianspirituality.com/ignatian-prayer/the-spiritual-exercises/pray-with-your-imagination/
@@OrthodoxEthos i dont want to be dramatic but i got filled with disgust when reading the article
@@OrthoFireCrusadersame here. Barely read it.. But i did. I feel safe in Orthodoxy like never before.
@nastjavo I got to the part where you are essentially trying l to imagine you are God and I had to stop. My goodness! I can't do that.
@@NMemonehehe yep.. It goes against your more pure heart..
I think fantasy and imagination are two different things and there is good imagination but fantasy is wrong
According to Orthodox teaching, fantasy and imagination must be avoided during prayer.
@OrthodoxEthos during prayer specifically. So it's not bad we just need a disciplined mind and quiet mind/soul during prayer, specifically!
@@OrthodoxEthos
How does a mind that only thinks in pictures do that.
@@eldermillennial8330 I myself have a mind that works in pictures. I have found picturing the words you are saying (especially on the Jesus prayer, because there is no book to focus on) can be helpful to keep your mind focused on just the prayer alone. This isn’t easy and i still find myself drifting off on other thoughts on occasion. But persevere because concentration will grow stronger. I hope this has been of some help. Peace be with you and God bless.
2:14 Excuse me Fr. but this has so many implications. Why does God command Adam and Eve to replenish the earth before they had the means to do so? Does this mean sexual organs did not exist? Didn't the distinction of male and female exist before the fall? Mammary glands to nurse infants? What does Adam mean when he says a man shall be joined to his wife and become one flesh? To be clear, I don't say that I disagree, but these kinds of assertions have logical conclusions that need to be addressed, in my view. Do you happen to have a video on this topic?
Foreknowledge and fore-planning on the part of God.
Yes, the had the same physiology.
Yes, the distinction existed.
Read the patristic literature, such as St. Basil the Great or St. John Chrysostom.
This article is a good place to start:
pemptousia.com/2013/09/21273/
@@OrthodoxEthos Thank you very much.
You can read about this in Fr Seraphim Rose's book "Genesis, Creation and Early Man". Here's some excerpts from it...
St. John Damascene: “Virginity was practiced in Paradise... After the fall, to keep the race from dwindling and being destroyed by death, marriage was devised, so that by the begetting of children the race of men might be preserved. But they may ask: What, then, does "male and female" mean, and "increase and multiply"? To which we shall reply that the "increase and multiply'' does not mean increasing by the marriage union exclusively, because if they had kept the commandment unbroken forever, God could have increased the race by some other means.* But, since God, Who knows all things before they come to be, saw by His foreknowledge how they were to fall and be condemned to death, He made provision beforehand by creating them male and female and commanding them to increase and multiply.
St. Athanasius: "The original intention of God was for us to generate not by marriage and corruption. But the transgression of the commandment introduced marriage on account of the lawless act of Adam .... Thus the Psalmist shows, because from the beginning the nature of man had fallen under sin by the transgression in Eve, and under the curse did procreation come about.”
St. John Chrysostom: “After the disobedience, after the banishment from Paradise-then it was that married life began. Before the disobedience, the first people lived like angels and there was no talk of cohabitation… "Now Adam knew Eve his wife." Consider when this happened. After the disobedience, after their loss in the Garden, then it was that the practice of intercourse had its beginning. You see, before their disobedience they followed a life like that of the angels, and there was no mention of intercourse. How could there be, when they were not subject to the needs of the body?... Why did marriage not appear before the disobedience? Why was there no intercourse in Paradise? Why not the pains of childbirth before the curse? Because at that time these things were superfluous. The necessity arose later because of our weakness, as did cities, arts and skills, the wearing of clothes, and all our other numerous needs.”
Fr Seraphim Rose: “The Fathers do raise the question: how would children have been born if Adam had not fallen? They say that children would have been born in a way that God knew, but not according to this way we have now,* which, as St. Gregory of Nyssa discusses, is bound up with our animal nature. This [the sexual mode of reproduction] will not be in the Paradise to come, and was not in the original Paradise… In the prevailing view of the Holy Fathers, among the bodily needs that man acquired at the fall was the need to procreate sexually.”
Editor: “The command that man "be fruitful and multiply'' refers in one sense to the means of increasing the human race chat God would have employed if man had not fallen, and in another sense it is as an expression of God's foreknowledge of the sexual procreation chat would be introduced into human life through the fall… According to Sts. Athanasius the Great (Commentary on the Psalms [Psalm 50:5], see below), Gregory of Nyssa (On the Making of Man 1 7), John Chrysostom (On Virginity 1 4-1 5), Maximus the Confessor (Ambigua 41), John Damascene (On the Orthodox Faith 4.24), and Symeon of Thessaloniki (On the Sacraments 38), if man had not fallen, God would have employed a means of increasing the human race other than sexual reproduction. In the West, Blessed Augustine held a view contrary to this common teaching of the Eastern Holy Fathers. He did affirm along with all the other Fathers that Adam and Eve did not have sexual relations before the fall; however, according to him this was either because they did not have time or because they were waiting for a specific command from God (Literal Meaning of Genesis 9; City of God 1 4.26). Thomas Aquinas was later to refer to this teaching of Augustine when arguing for the idea that sexual reproduction was "natural to man" in his original condition (Summa Theologica, part 1, question 98, article 2).... St. Maximus observes that the virginal birth of Christ showed that "there was perhaps another way, foreknown to God, for human beings to increase, if the first human being had kept the commandment" (Ambigua 41, in [Fr.] Andrew Louth, Maximus the Confessor, p. 1 59), while St. Gregory of Nyssa suggests that if man had remained in his original, angel-like condition, God would have increased the human race according to the mode by which He multiplied the number of angels-a mode which is "unspeakable and inconceivable by human conjectures, except that it assuredly exists" (On the Making of Man 1 7.2, NPNF 2 5, p. 407)... ”
Fr. Heers, please consider doing a video on the fallacy of memorialism. Orthodox understand the Eucharist as a “memorial sacrifice” as far as I know, and absolutely in the real presence of Christ in the bread and the wine. This is not how I was raised so I would appreciate and explanation on this topic from a priest - on the passage of “in remembrance of me” vs “this is my body…”
I think the issue is a bit more nuanced than what is usually presented in regard to this subject. There’s a clear difference in patristic writings between meditative prayer upon the scriptures (which invariably requires some type of visualization) and what we would call “fantasy”. Recalling an icon of our Lord walking upon the water is one thing; fantasizing that you are walking with our Lord on the water is quite another.
I got it when you saying about imagination in prayer. But in kids education? Imagination is one of crutial compnents of cognitive development and education. Why that needs to be limited?
Imagination demands reality to draw from. So when you're a young child you don't know reality and can't distinguish the two. Acting in a movie vs reality of a documentary.
@@David-ml1be basically imagination originates as musthave self-save structure after child is born and develops during early age: 3 to 5 years as a proccess that allow kid generally to Play. And through game child's cognitive sphere forms. Later on imagination is needed both for planning and emotion regulation, as well as modelling and creating anything from text to visual images. Limiting imagination for kids under 15 for sure will have negative impact on his/her mind later on. I dont mean you should pump up kids with Harry Potter or something like video games though that wont even develop anything. Quite opposite: they need to listen tails and stories with And without visuals, paint, draw, play, engage with new objects and situations. All of that highly involve imagination. One won't really grow much closer to God by being mindcrippled. Though I will ephesize that I agree that imagination needs to be controlled. It's a skill that needs its own development. And prayer situation is exactly one that have to be the field of that development, and not only that.
We had a discussion the other day about this….. no sexual relationship between Adam & Eve before the fall. But before the fall, in my Orthodox Study Bible it states that God created them and told them to be fruitful and multiply. So how was the multiplying supposed to happen?
How do we pray without imagination if we struggle with intrusive thoughts? Often times trying to resist the urge to not picure images in my head just makes it more difficult; like trying not to think of pink elephants.
Hi Father Heers, I received some myrrh from the miracle Hawaiian Iveron icon, how can I use this properly?
Nice video father, but what about the Western Rite Orthodox church, which encourage prayers like Rosary and other imaginative prayer?
Western Rite ideal is to transition back to pre-Carolingian forms of Western Prayer, in the long term. How quickly this is to be done is a point of disagreement between the ROCOR & Antioch Vicariates, but much can be learned by both experimenting towards this goal in different ways.
To the extent that western traditions can be adapted to be less imaginative is also part of it.
@@eldermillennial8330 Thank you sir.
Let's put it this way, considering everyone is just giving the usual canned responses that aren't helpful at all.
First off, the definition of prayer between East and West is very different. The East particularly means bringing the mind to God. It's very specific. Very very very specific. Prayer usually isn't used to talk about reading scripture, getting your nous warmed up to pray, or any of the other spiritual activities you actually need to do to pray properly.
For the West? All of the above is prayer. They lump it all together, and nobody talks about it
The word "imagination" is used also pretty badly. There's two forms of it: the "imaging" part, where you can purposefully build a picture in your mind. It's a ridiculously useful function of the brain, and it's what's usually engaged in reading and playing games like DnD. This is a good function of the brain. Evagrius in the Philokalia openly advises imagining the fires of Hell and the joys of Heaven before you actually pray. The imagination is useful to get yourself focused, but once you actually start praying you stop imaging... in an Eastern context. For the West, that act of imaging, which is a universal function of East and West and anyone who says different is wrong, is prayer as well.
But then there's phantasms, fantasy. See the problem in English? And that's the stuff that just pops into your head, without your assent. Phantasms are bad. Very bad. You don't want them.
And, true to the fact that East and West actually are doing the same thing with different words, nobody wants phantasms.
There's the nuance the uberdox won't give you, because they're too busy trumpeting their own nonsensical hamfisted yammerings as the "teachings of the Fathers".
This guys doesn't know that some guided prayers of the latin west tell you to imagine yourself in hell or the virgin mary doing something
What are you anyways?
The active use of the imagination in prayer is discouraged by all of the Pre-Schism saints and Fathers (and by all Orthodox saints after the Schism). Yes, brief reflection on the Final Judgment and other themes prior to prayer is recommended to develop contrition of heart but it is one thing to reflect on a sobering theme and another to try to picture and imagine these things. The active use of the imagination as recommended in the Ignatian Exercises, of picturing yourself in the stories of the Scriptures or in the events of the life of Christ and the Theotokos, and to lose yourself in such imaginings, is not at all consistent with the teachings of the saints before the Schism.
I literally just described the difference in regards to the word being used for "prayer," in the East vs West. Many post schism western saints would agree that contemplation shouldn't use imagination either. They would also say reading the Bible for spiritual edification is prayer too tho
@@dp34576
I like your distinction, “phantasms” a lot better. My autism is mild compared to my Niece, who I’m convinced does not think in words at all. A mind like that is built in the opposite way that the patristic ideal is recommending, IF the English has been correctly applied to the Greek concepts, but you make me wonder. I worry about her spiritual life & I don’t think she can’t not be imaginative if she can’t even think in words!
Or is simply remembering images distinct from “imagining”?
If I’m simply remembering scriptural truths when pondering the rosary with my mother (We are Western Rite converts from Papism & she simply can’t seem to get used to Pater Nostar Beads), is that different from having the events of that scripture play out I in my head like Movie?
@@dp34576 okay... St ignatius did say that imagination is positive. also what catholic saint would say that imagination is bad ?
Father Peter, I hope to understand this better for parenting. When I was a child, my dad would gather us around and improvise fantastical, funny stories, and I had hoped to carry that on for my own children. But would you advise against this?
I am confused on why Fr. Seraphim insulted or "called out" Fr. Schmemann in his OSC. It appears Fr. Seraphim was quite holy but i dont understand why he did that, considering Fr. Schmemann always held the Orthodox Church is the only true Church, and that us engaging in dialogue with the heterodox was almost purely for their conversion.
Does anyone know the chant at the end?
Seems to me you missed the main reason to not introduce imagination into prayer.
To do so supplants the will of God with your own will.
That's an interesting point. Similar to how if our imagination runs wild when thinking of someone else we create our own version of them in our mind that is different from how they actually are. Possible trap of loving what we envision of something/someone instead of who they actually are (so not the truth).
Have a question?For pleasure we can see it chronologically but about the appearance of imagination after the fall where can we find it in holy scripture.
When people finally realise that the Orthodox Saints are the only ones able to explain things we don't understand, we will finally stop playing the game “where is it written in the Bible, oh it is not, therefore I will dismiss you”.
In the original Hebrew and Greek texts of the Bible, the terms directly equivalent to the modern English words "fantasy" and "imagination" are not explicitly used in the context of negative or positive connotations as we understand them today. However, the Bible does address the human mind, thoughts, and inclinations in various ways.
For example, the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) uses words like "yetzer" (יֵצֶר) to refer to the inclinations or thoughts of the human heart. This term is often associated with both positive and negative aspects of human nature, and its interpretation can vary.
In the Greek New Testament, words like "dianoia" (διάνοια) and "logismos" (λογισμός) are used to convey thoughts and reasonings. The interpretation of these terms depends on the specific context in which they appear.
If we are still blind and we haven't changed our lives in order to be worthy enough to receive a speckle of the Holy Spirit within, how do we expect to interpret the Bible?
With all those sets of biases, justifications, entitlements, ego, and blindness, how do we even dare think we are in a position to interpret anything?
The difference between Saints and common humans is this: they were people just like you and me until they decided that the only thing that matters is their relationship with God. And they cultivated it. They have experienced it. We just mumble and theorize, being in love with the idea of “understanding” everything. But do we understand or just simplify and then divide instead?
We keep acting like university students who haven't acquired knowledge yet but theory.
Saints have both. The Holy Spirit taught them. Not their imagination. Read their lives if you haven't already, and you will understand what it takes! You will start seeing the patterns. They didn't just read the Bible like a manual! First, they implemented and they were taught as they went. Then they experienced. They BECAME the Bible. They received parts of Logos. They became One with it. They experienced more than what the human brain can explain in any form.
It is our job to pray and ask God to enlighten us. It is our job to pray and ask God to clean us.
Every time I tried to use my logic in order to understand, I failed. But whenever I asked God to show me instead, He did. It doesn't matter how long it took me to understand the message. But there was and is always a message that did not stem by imagination.
@@milou22rhThank you sister be blessed.May you find the truth in oriental churches.Thank you for the detailed explanation.
@@kidusshitaye1734 I hope it helped somehow, brother. May God bless you and your family.
What about the Antiochian western rite's use of the Stations of the Cross, Rosary, and Sacred Heart of Jesus?
Not Orthodox at all, especially the "sacred heart".
@@LadyMaria
Are you denying that Patriarch John 10 & all we of Antioch are legitimately Orthodox for taking a nuanced approach instead of a hard reset to 1066?
Could you please review the extensive notes of the Antioch Synod that established the Vicariate in the 50s before presuming that we are little better than Scrantonite Old Catholics (which actually are the next best possible thing outside Orthodoxy)?
I no longer use any form of the Sacred Heart prayer, & have gotten my family used to ignoring it, but this is primarily because of the baggage. It’s not because there is not a very early none nestoian-ish version, there is, but then I realized that the baggage involved in defending prayer that is just the musing of a pious troubadour from 1100 or so, just is not worth it.
@@eldermillennial8330 That's a bit much for me just saying those things aren't Orthodox. If you're going to rant, rant at the original commenter, not me. Enjoy your night.
Using imagination in prayer is like talking to God without looking at His eyes, disrespectful way of communication with God and it lead our hearts to be not watchful, not paying attention.
Gen 1:27 LXX
And God made man, according to the image of God he made him, male and female he made them.
28 And *God blessed them, saying, Increase and multiply,* and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the seas and flying creatures of heaven, and all the cattle and all the earth, and all the reptiles that creep on the earth.
If there was no prefall procreation, why did God instruct Adam an Eve to multiply?
The way I understand it if I remember correctly the stance is that there was a different method of procreation that wasn't what it is now.
I wonder if perhaps they would have had a sort of holy and "passionless passion" sexual intercourse in due time had the fall not happened first. I'm assuming the physical organs did not change and as you point out the Divine ontology lines up with that. But regardless of the command and perfect will of God, we know they did fall before they reproduced so the father is correct to say this, one way or another.
Good question. There is no mention of procreation until after the fall but the command to multiply was prior to. Procreation doesn't happen until Genesis 4. Perhaps the church Fathers cover this and that's what Fr. Peter is referring.
@savvasbournelis8401 Assertion means very little when it comes to establishing truth, especially when the assertion appears to contradict the foundation in which the assertion claims to defend.
The Fathers say that had the Fall not occurred, the command to “be fruitful and multiply” would have occurred without the pleasure of sexual relations nor the pain of childbirth.
I thought I heard there was disagreement among the saints whether or not sexuality did or would have exsisted before the fall.
I know most saints are monastics so I would expect the general idea would be that it wasnt, would tend to be more popular.
If the church has not specifically ruled on this it may be better to leave it ambiguous.
You can read about this in Fr Seraphim Rose's book "Genesis, Creation and Early Man". Here's some excerpts from it...
St. John Damascene: “Virginity was practiced in Paradise... After the fall, to keep the race from dwindling and being destroyed by death, marriage was devised, so that by the begetting of children the race of men might be preserved. But they may ask: What, then, does "male and female" mean, and "increase and multiply"? To which we shall reply that the "increase and multiply'' does not mean increasing by the marriage union exclusively, because if they had kept the commandment unbroken forever, God could have increased the race by some other means.* But, since God, Who knows all things before they come to be, saw by His foreknowledge how they were to fall and be condemned to death, He made provision beforehand by creating them male and female and commanding them to increase and multiply.
St. Athanasius: "The original intention of God was for us to generate not by marriage and corruption. But the transgression of the commandment introduced marriage on account of the lawless act of Adam .... Thus the Psalmist shows, because from the beginning the nature of man had fallen under sin by the transgression in Eve, and under the curse did procreation come about.”
St. John Chrysostom: “After the disobedience, after the banishment from Paradise-then it was that married life began. Before the disobedience, the first people lived like angels and there was no talk of cohabitation… "Now Adam knew Eve his wife." Consider when this happened. After the disobedience, after their loss in the Garden, then it was that the practice of intercourse had its beginning. You see, before their disobedience they followed a life like that of the angels, and there was no mention of intercourse. How could there be, when they were not subject to the needs of the body?... Why did marriage not appear before the disobedience? Why was there no intercourse in Paradise? Why not the pains of childbirth before the curse? Because at that time these things were superfluous. The necessity arose later because of our weakness, as did cities, arts and skills, the wearing of clothes, and all our other numerous needs.”
Fr Seraphim Rose: “The Fathers do raise the question: how would children have been born if Adam had not fallen? They say that children would have been born in a way that God knew, but not according to this way we have now,* which, as St. Gregory of Nyssa discusses, is bound up with our animal nature. This [the sexual mode of reproduction] will not be in the Paradise to come, and was not in the original Paradise… In the prevailing view of the Holy Fathers, among the bodily needs that man acquired at the fall was the need to procreate sexually.”
Editor: “The command that man "be fruitful and multiply'' refers in one sense to the means of increasing the human race chat God would have employed if man had not fallen, and in another sense it is as an expression of God's foreknowledge of the sexual procreation chat would be introduced into human life through the fall… According to Sts. Athanasius the Great (Commentary on the Psalms [Psalm 50:5], see below), Gregory of Nyssa (On the Making of Man 1 7), John Chrysostom (On Virginity 1 4-1 5), Maximus the Confessor (Ambigua 41), John Damascene (On the Orthodox Faith 4.24), and Symeon of Thessaloniki (On the Sacraments 38), if man had not fallen, God would have employed a means of increasing the human race other than sexual reproduction. In the West, Blessed Augustine held a view contrary to this common teaching of the Eastern Holy Fathers. He did affirm along with all the other Fathers that Adam and Eve did not have sexual relations before the fall; however, according to him this was either because they did not have time or because they were waiting for a specific command from God (Literal Meaning of Genesis 9; City of God 1 4.26). Thomas Aquinas was later to refer to this teaching of Augustine when arguing for the idea that sexual reproduction was "natural to man" in his original condition (Summa Theologica, part 1, question 98, article 2).... St. Maximus observes that the virginal birth of Christ showed that "there was perhaps another way, foreknown to God, for human beings to increase, if the first human being had kept the commandment" (Ambigua 41, in [Fr.] Andrew Louth, Maximus the Confessor, p. 1 59), while St. Gregory of Nyssa suggests that if man had remained in his original, angel-like condition, God would have increased the human race according to the mode by which He multiplied the number of angels-a mode which is "unspeakable and inconceivable by human conjectures, except that it assuredly exists" (On the Making of Man 1 7.2, NPNF 2 5, p. 407)... ”
I agree that sexual relations didn't come about until after the fall, but I have to ask why? Didn't God tell Adam even before the fall to be fruitful and multiply?
You can read about this in Fr Seraphim Rose's book "Genesis, Creation and Early Man". Here's some excerpts from it...
St. John Damascene: “Virginity was practiced in Paradise... After the fall, to keep the race from dwindling and being destroyed by death, marriage was devised, so that by the begetting of children the race of men might be preserved. But they may ask: What, then, does "male and female" mean, and "increase and multiply"? To which we shall reply that the "increase and multiply'' does not mean increasing by the marriage union exclusively, because if they had kept the commandment unbroken forever, God could have increased the race by some other means.* But, since God, Who knows all things before they come to be, saw by His foreknowledge how they were to fall and be condemned to death, He made provision beforehand by creating them male and female and commanding them to increase and multiply.
St. Athanasius: "The original intention of God was for us to generate not by marriage and corruption. But the transgression of the commandment introduced marriage on account of the lawless act of Adam .... Thus the Psalmist shows, because from the beginning the nature of man had fallen under sin by the transgression in Eve, and under the curse did procreation come about.”
St. John Chrysostom: “After the disobedience, after the banishment from Paradise-then it was that married life began. Before the disobedience, the first people lived like angels and there was no talk of cohabitation… "Now Adam knew Eve his wife." Consider when this happened. After the disobedience, after their loss in the Garden, then it was that the practice of intercourse had its beginning. You see, before their disobedience they followed a life like that of the angels, and there was no mention of intercourse. How could there be, when they were not subject to the needs of the body?... Why did marriage not appear before the disobedience? Why was there no intercourse in Paradise? Why not the pains of childbirth before the curse? Because at that time these things were superfluous. The necessity arose later because of our weakness, as did cities, arts and skills, the wearing of clothes, and all our other numerous needs.”
Fr Seraphim Rose: “The Fathers do raise the question: how would children have been born if Adam had not fallen? They say that children would have been born in a way that God knew, but not according to this way we have now,* which, as St. Gregory of Nyssa discusses, is bound up with our animal nature. This [the sexual mode of reproduction] will not be in the Paradise to come, and was not in the original Paradise… In the prevailing view of the Holy Fathers, among the bodily needs that man acquired at the fall was the need to procreate sexually.”
Editor: “The command that man "be fruitful and multiply'' refers in one sense to the means of increasing the human race chat God would have employed if man had not fallen, and in another sense it is as an expression of God's foreknowledge of the sexual procreation chat would be introduced into human life through the fall… According to Sts. Athanasius the Great (Commentary on the Psalms [Psalm 50:5], see below), Gregory of Nyssa (On the Making of Man 1 7), John Chrysostom (On Virginity 1 4-1 5), Maximus the Confessor (Ambigua 41), John Damascene (On the Orthodox Faith 4.24), and Symeon of Thessaloniki (On the Sacraments 38), if man had not fallen, God would have employed a means of increasing the human race other than sexual reproduction. In the West, Blessed Augustine held a view contrary to this common teaching of the Eastern Holy Fathers. He did affirm along with all the other Fathers that Adam and Eve did not have sexual relations before the fall; however, according to him this was either because they did not have time or because they were waiting for a specific command from God (Literal Meaning of Genesis 9; City of God 1 4.26). Thomas Aquinas was later to refer to this teaching of Augustine when arguing for the idea that sexual reproduction was "natural to man" in his original condition (Summa Theologica, part 1, question 98, article 2).... St. Maximus observes that the virginal birth of Christ showed that "there was perhaps another way, foreknown to God, for human beings to increase, if the first human being had kept the commandment" (Ambigua 41, in [Fr.] Andrew Louth, Maximus the Confessor, p. 1 59), while St. Gregory of Nyssa suggests that if man had remained in his original, angel-like condition, God would have increased the human race according to the mode by which He multiplied the number of angels-a mode which is "unspeakable and inconceivable by human conjectures, except that it assuredly exists" (On the Making of Man 1 7.2, NPNF 2 5, p. 407)... ”
Fr Heers, you said the st Joseph the Hesychast said do not believe dreams, yet after seeing a demon in the floorboards, st Joseph had a dream that same night telling him that the new Calendar is ok.
How could that be the reason that the church accepts the calendar switch?
Jesus knew exactly why he died on the day that was chosen. We did not need to correct it by 13 days. It was not a man of divine grace who created the calendar, how is it accepted by the Orthodox church?
Those who accept this change are technically heretics.
His dream did not pertain to the rightness or wrongness of the calendar change but to the rightness of the method or stance or decisions of those opposing it -- whether their decisions vis-a-vis the Church of Greece (non-recognition of Mysteries, etc.) were blessed and patristic.
The calendar the Church follows for Pascha has not changed.
The calendar the Church has followed for 1.5 millennium (and still follows in most of the Local Churches) was not created by a man of divine grace but by a pagan.
A change in the calendar is not a change in dogma; it is not a dogmatic matter and thus not a heretical matter. It may well be an innovation and one done for dishonorable or deceptive intentions, but this does not make it heresy.
Doesn't the western rite orthodox church use the rosary though?
Maybe rosary shaped rope but that should be that, not more
Some western rite parishes are known to be very problematic (have sacred heart veneration and everything, basically all heresies of latin mass papists except papism itself)
This is common thing I've heard in the past
They definitely use the rosary, just not imaginative prayer. Same with Stations of the Cross.
The rosary saved my life.
Sadly some do. It's a post schism innovation.
@@user-fg7nw6ln1zThe Fatima prayer is problematic.
Imagination did not come after the fall. How could Adam come up with names for the animals without imagination? How could Eve understand what the serpent meant when she was told that she would be like God if she lacked imagination?
The situation before the fall was different. There is one video also with fr. Heers and another priest about it.
ua-cam.com/video/WU861qXaUSQ/v-deo.htmlsi=xCAE7y0_FBI0PHb9
@@ajtsanvkcare to share it?
Um, to imply that sexual intercourse was an after thought would be to say that God's perfect design was for a less than good purpose? God saw that it (all) was very good....? Not a statement more a question. Thank you for your wisdom either way Fr.
It's just a post-fall reality (that's the patristic opinion), before that multiplication would have been done differently probably
😊 Saint Peter had a dream from the Lord he was eating pig flesh I'm watching it down with dairy and he was perplexed he thought it couldn't have been from God what's the meaning behind it was don't be afraid to break bread with the gentiles if you are to spread the good news about our Lord and savior. Sometimes dreams have meanings and you just can't help them it's up to us to discern them and what they mean
The role? To get out of the way.
You know that writing, even what Fr Rose wrote, let alone someone like Dostoyevsky whose writings converted many.
Without imagination...prayer can't manifest. So I'm not sure on the subject. 🤔
Do you mean every thought=imagination?
Imagination = fantasy
Going outside of reality
Well, when I started to pray, and due to not knowing how to pray properly i used to imagine Christ, Theotokos and Saints. Suddenly very ugly pictures started to appear. I think thats free lesson not to do that!!!
It seems to me that Ignatius of Loyola are saying the same thing as Elder Ephram just using different terms
Definitely not. See this and other articles from Jesuits on the Ignatian use of imagination www.ignatianspirituality.com/ignatian-prayer/the-spiritual-exercises/pray-with-your-imagination/
@@OrthodoxEthos I understand our imaginations much like our hearts shouldn't be allowed to roam and influence our spirit. I just don't quite understand how using one's imagination to place themselves in a state of anamnesis with Christ. Like for example to imagine the pains and sorrows Our Lord and Blessed Lady suffered in Christ's passion. For example how when Christ was buried how Our Mother was tenderly loving and wrapping her beloved Son one final time, how instead of swaddling clothes and a manger she now wraps him in burial cloth and lays him in a tomb and how the heart of Our Mother was truly thrashed as she suffered this all with silence and humility. I know that you said God can sanctify and purify the proper use of imagination, I just don't quite understand how an example of said imaginative contemplation can be a negative or worldly use of said imagination, especially if it generates a true repentance and causes one to search for Christ and his truth with even more fervor than before.
Hm.. You lost me when you said there was no sexual relations before the Fall...
I believe even the Jesus Prayer succumbs to the devil's imaginings. That's why the breathing process, etc. were closely supervised with monks.
This makes no sense. You dont have a coherent definition of imagination
It makes perfect sense. No constructions of the mind at any time during the prayer. Imagination is the construction of images in the mind.
Imagination brings pride
Your problem is with the idea of imagination he presents, not the dogma?
Carholics: the devil has power over the imagination
Orthodox: thr devil has power over the imagination
Catholics: that's why we must occupy the imagination with holy images
Orthodox: that's why we must not engage the imagination
Its amazing how we can start with the same premise and draw opposite conclusions about what to do. But i suppose the Orthodox dont have a faustina kowalska and a witch of a pope saying his predecessors just didn't understand the Polish when they called her new devotion "theologically inconsistent"
Algorithm boost.
I was very interested to watch this video until it immediately entered into a sidekick to Catholics. It makes me wonder if you are originally Calvinist or Lutheran or some such belief of the Protestants then an Orthodox Convert. It seems evident by the Sacred Icons and Orthodox Church Architecture that the Orthodox Church are Masters of the Redemption of the Imagination. The imagination is a beautiful gift of God that can be misused by sin.
Total and complete misunderstanding of St. Ignatius Spiritual Exercises which views imagaination and memories as a gift. All prayer is preceded by the Suspice prayer to give God your mind, intellect, memories and will to use for God's Kingdom. Likewise to avoid self delusion, Jesuits use a spiritual director to help with discernment of the spirits in one's prayer life and choices in life.
Just another rant against Roman Catholicism without seeing the blessings and presence of God in 1.5 billion Catholics. I pray for the reunification of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic faiths that have so much to share and give one another.
Numbers mean nothing. C'mon now. Biblically speaking, how many were saved at the flood? How many out of Sodom and Gomorrah? How many entered the promised land? The path is broad. You pray for the reunification only under the Pope. It will never happen. I perfectly understood what he was saying. But you have just another rant against Orthodoxy to bring us all under a fallible man who usurps Christ's position.
Is the “Ignatian Spirituality” website and its articles by Jesuits false as well? www.ignatianspirituality.com/ignatian-prayer/the-spiritual-exercises/pray-with-your-imagination/
@@OrthodoxEthos Within Roman Catholicism every religious order has a charism based upon the unique prayer methods used. For example the Benedictines and Trappist the charism is humility. For Dominicans the Order of Preachers and Scholasticism the charism is Truth as they preach against heresies. For St.Franciscans Joy. For Jesuits, love. There are 360 spiritual exercises in Ignatius Spiritual Exercises based upon a synthesis of 15 centuries of monasticism and takes a lifetime to master. The premise is: if Christians offered the world the love of Christ, the world would convert. Jesuits are missionaries and brought half of Africa, Latin America, the Philippines, and French Canada into Roman Catholicism in 500 years. The reason people don't convert is Christians are not offering the love of Christ, but instead ether the ego, or a false religion that judges and condemns rather than healing and saving.
There are four weeks of the exercises, the first focuses on Sin. Probably 80% of Christians remain stuck in this first stage of converting to becoming Christ. They judge and cannot forgive themselves or others. Entire religions can be stuck. The second week is the Call to love and be loved. The person wrestles with the ego, but begins the practice on meditating on the life of Christ. The imagination is involved as well as regular visits with a spiritual director to discern if one is listening to ego, self or others, or good or evil spirits.
The 3rd week is the Crucifixion which only God can move someone into this week. The goal is to remain at the foot of the cross as a spiritual discipline and never abandon Christ. A good spiritual director does not abandon the person coming to them for help because they cannot handle to persons woundedness. This week is regarded as contemplation or being with Christ.
The last week is focusing on the Resurrection. The resurrected Christ lives in us now. We are the body of the resurrected Christ as a church. Lots to reflect upon. Few people reach this stage early on in life.
The website you are viewing is meditations written mostly by college students still in the early stages of conversion or first week. The Jesuits who have written are mentoring these students at the level they are at.
I hope this helps. That said, I truly hope and pray the Orthodox are able to bring the non Christian world to Christ. I believe it is part of God's plan.
So , no to saint seraphim of sarov rule of the holy theotokos ? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_the_Theotokos , this bad , so don't pray it?
Thank you Father