I worked for a supplier of an element used on ASML machines (PAS, XT, AT). I think you might add that ASML leveraged their "systems engineering" approach far better than anyone else. Especially in the early days (and perhaps still today) ASML defined how some functional element needed to perform (and fit within a well-defined space) - and then leveraged the heck out of the engineering, manufacturing and materials management of the supplier. So, while they may have had many of their own engineers and scientists, they also had an RD&E group of 1000's more distributed around the globe. And if you shipped a prototype to Veldhoven that didn't work as expected, and just as you have commented in this excellent video (and as noted in some of the prior comments) - they were tremendously supportive to work through the deficiency. I can claim this was not always the case for any other stepper manufacturer - Japanese or US. I loved my trips to ASML. The work stayed on focus, problems got solved. No politics.
This videos and the coments are really something great. They give me an insightful Window to whats happening around the world, and how it's transforming our lives . In my home country we are still thinking in a second agrarial reform and how spaniards do us wrong. I hate Perú so much. no dumb PC polítics just hard work and geniusness
I have worked 23 years for ASML. I believe this video is pretty accurate, and well done. We've had failures along the way, but my company has learned valuable lessons along our journey. I agree that ASML places high value on its employees. It's weird, but the item I hate most about my company is the loss of people recently due to retirement. Talented people, who've added so much value to the company, and my work environment. It's like losing a family member, or friend. It's been a joy to work for ASML. I'm glad I found this content provider.
@@bunnypeople ASML thrives on creating personal connections. Twenty years ago, work life balance was awful, but as a company we've grown to be better. They don't like their employees to work over sixty hours a week, and have given me time off every time I've asked. Not once have they said no in the last twenty years. Most customer support engineers starting, work a four day on, three day off, three day on, four day off, twelve hour shift. ASML pays I've worked at Intel for ASML, and prefer the ASML culture. ASML requires a technical degree for most jobs, and we hire for long term. It takes years for us to train an engineer and the first month is truly the worst. New hires have to complete many hours of computer based training that stress safety and an overall machine build. Its the most tedious thing I can imagine, but once past it, they mentor an engineer to solve problems. Many of my coworkers have been around for over twenty plus years. I think its about the same to get a job at ASML, as Intel.
I am from the Netherlands and work for ASML. In the 90's ASML made an important move, the move they already made with Zeiss. ASML involved important suppliers in a early development stage. For example, I worked as a sr project / program manager among other project on the heart of the recticle stage of the EUV machine. As a specialist in high end machining of extreme complex parts and extreme exotic materials, we were involved very early stage. Both parties have huge benefits from this approach. This open approach is typical a "Dutch" approach, it's a direct way of working and based on trust. Further on ASML has an a huge organisation in which many nationalities are accommodated. ASML spents a lot of time to assimilate them all. Last but not least, at ASML they know that employees are the gold of the company. ASML rewards employees on a great way. The result is that almost every ASML employee and suplier is proud to work at these high end prodcts. The moral at the whole battlefront is very high. This all combined with a sober general approach made that ASML could build a machine no else can (at this moment). I am proud to work for that company.
Yada yada yada. Lol. It’s because you have free access to western technologies, most importantly US technologies in the domain of semiconductors. US isn’t afraid that a Dutch company controls the EUV market, or semiconductor technologies, but it was afraid of the Japanese controlling it, now the Chinese. That’s the real story. Did ASML do the right things at the right moments? Absolutely. Not discrediting any hard work by its employees. But having all the freedom to operate without US sanctions is a lot easier than doing business like Huawei or other Chinese companies.
@@lordlee6473 Chinese, Japanese companies suffered because they stole IP and flooded markets with below cost products. Plus Chinese do spying using their equipments. Big Red flags
The Japanese Ringi system is quite a hoot. I worked for a Japanese semico. To get my project approved I had to put the project description on the upper portion of an A4 page with the lower portion blank. Then that page was circulated to all the GM's to place their ring seal on the lower portion. Took a while to ship the page overseas to imperial HQ, and one seal missing means the project doesn't launch. With that level of disorganization and lack of industry coherence, there was no way they were going to get to EUV.
I worked for one of the Japanese microscope companies for 16yrs. I can't even begin to express my frustration with their product development process. I watched helplessly as they squandered one industry leading innovation after another; while the competition seized on the ideas and made intuitive leaps in advancing the technologies. Then they incredulously wondered why sales and market share dried up.
@Modox The company is far to linear in there approach to product development. Missing obvious opportunities to capitalize on innovations and get way ahead of the competition. They would rest on their laurels for far too long; giving their competitors time to leap ahead.
@Modox They had got tech transfer from US without restriction before. Nikhon , Cannon can buy any machines or parts from American electronic companies freely. But after Washington acted against it, Japan were restricted to some prohibition law. Such this EUV light source from Cymer Inc.
As a biology student I still remember how we use to set up oil-immersed slides on microscope, it increased the resolving power and made the slides look more clearer. This technology is quite old yet effective.
I worked for ASML for two stints and a combination of 27 years. I recognize most of these comments. It was a wonderful company to work for, great hardworking people, and amazing engineering innovations. I have to give extra credit to Martin vd Brink for his technology and commercial leadership for all of the years I worked there. I spent just a few years in engineering and then was moved to sales. I will never forget how Martin championed the customers over our ‘almost perfect’ technology. We sometimes had machines that fully met all of our specifications but couldn’t print the customer patterns. We in the field could ‘dig in’ and say ‘sorry but nothing we can do, it is in spec’. Martin would come out and listen to the customer and take us to task saying something like ‘what good is a 50M dollars piece of capital equipment that doesn’t allow a customer to make their chips, you guys.’ (Of course a bit more colorful language helped.). He would then rally his team of top experts and try to uncover the problem and fix it in the design or software. We instituted a process of CSR or customer special request specifications ( which became an in depth dialogue and learning between customer R&D experts and ours) to build and test the next tools to what they really needed. Martin also saw the need for the special modeling software to tie chip design to the optics that we could build ( what became Brion). And finally he pushed against I suppose a lot of financial pushback to develop EUV when it looked like it would be too expensive to design, build, and sell. He and our EVP of sales, Sunny Stalnaker, along with our entire board of management partnered with the big customers to drive EUV past all of the naysayers. Truly a huge accomplishment in leadership as well as of course brilliant R&D within ASML, Zeiss, Cymer and all other suppliers. I am truly grateful for all of my years at ASML and having had the experience of working under this amazing leadership. I am also grateful to all of our customers who pushed us, hounded us, and shared with us this wonderful experience of bringing this mind boggling technology to the world!
Just found your channel, I recently retired after almost 40 years in the semiconductor equipment industry. Your stories bring back many memories. ASML’s tie up with Samsung was a critical turning point for them as well as the Japanese suppliers. I know the gentleman from Samsung who played the (a) major role in kicking off this relationship, that still exists today so I’ve heard the details of what transpired from Samsungs perspective. Keep making these videos.
@@tysonsmith9991 Yes, I would encourage someone to come into the industry. Supporting the equipment is a great way to start. Depending on the company it could offer extensive travel and long hours but the rewards are many. The technology is nothing short of amazing, the people are some of the smartest on the planet, it’s a truly global community and you’re genuinely helping to change the world. Yes, it’s an excellent career direction.
I'm friends with an electronics consultant that used to make designs for ASML. He told me that there they try solving everything first via optics, otherwise they resort to electronic systems (He wrote a ranking, but I can't recall it). His design methods spun out of TU Delft back in the 80s/90s, out of which very great designers and spin-offs were created. I'm a foreigner here, but I feel fortunate I can learn with such incredible and talented people.
You know, this is what makes the Internet so great. I get to have a mental conversation with someone who knows way more about what I am interested in from halfway across the world sitting here in my chair in San Marcos California. Thank you for the video! Sincerely, A subscriber
Sony is an example of Japanese companies’ generally inability to collaborate. Sony’s internal departments don’t even like working together so while each division can produce great products they seldom collaborate to make anything cohesively good… and that’s a lack of collaboration just within the same company much less trying to work with others.
Excellent video and brought back many great memories. I operated and repaired many of the early litho machines, Perkin-Elmer, GCA-DSW, Canon MPA's and FPA's, Hitachi's LDI's (in house steppers) and even the early ASML's. I always preferred the Canons as my favorite probably because I used them the longest. We used Tokyo Electron coat/develop and Hitachi in-house coat/develop equipment. Great memories - thanks again.
An amazingly accurate account of what transpired behind the lithography industry. You got it spot on the semiconductor industry reaches its current advancement through endless collaborations and cross learning between countries. The current atmosphere of deglobalisation will slow down the future technology development for sure.
Well digital design is also getting saturated. And there is a big push to automate design processes. Our semiconductor solutions are getting to their peak.
actually, if you watched the video and read some of the top comments: good collaboration with suppliers, academia,etc. and customers is what gave them the edge.
The presentation of the information in this video is top-notch. It's always great to have relevant content but organizing it in a way that makes it easy for the viewer to assimilate that information is also a great skill to possess for all UA-camrs.
Another great video Jon. I recall that ASML also asked the foundries including TSMC, Intel and Samsung to invest in them in order to help them fund their R&D
anyone else have to crank up the volume to 100% to listen to him? the content are always superb but the audio is only the one thing that can be improved.
I can remember using oil immersion microscopes way back in college in 1985, we used an oil that had a specific refractive index a close to the refractive index as glass as possible, and it worked really well.
It’s unfortunate that there is no discussion of the impact of Cymer and Gigaphoton and the influence of TSM/Intel investment in making EUV a success. It took 20 years to develop a viable EUV source that could compete with 193nm laser immersion lithography.
Cymer is most important. Lenses from Zeiss or Japanese companies will be replaced by metalens in cameras but only Cymer makes the light sources. When Korea finally replaces EUV with X-ray and particle beam for the subnanometre age, EUV will be used for lower density devices.
Too little about the USA and their govs typical "fair-play" of competition in the market. Not much on ASML using all of the most innovate Samsung equippment.
As a field service engineer for Canon's Litho division, my cowokers and I are always geeking out about lithography machines and how crazy advanced the ASML machines are to achieve the geometries they have been able to. Right now Canon's bread and butter is mostly in its i-line steppers which are good for 350nm nodes and KrF scanners which I'm told get down to about 90nm.
I think we saw a similar kind of situation when Sony took the market lead from Canon with its mirrorless technology. Sony had three generations' experience from the field when Canon launched their first, technically mediocre, mirrorless. In the meantime, Sony's R&d had come up with novel solutions in optical technology and especially the way image recognition was used in the focusing system. Canon and Nikon have something wrong with their culture, they cannot adapt to changes.
Canon didn't really believe in mirrorless technology I remember (probably due to doubts over its effectiveness). Generally Japanese companies are more conservative & practice more incremental than radical innovation I think e.g. a rice cooker whose pot has a convex base for more even heat distribution (a design adopted from traditional Japanese cooking pots too). Toyota also continue using 4-speed auto transmissions as late as 2012 e.g. in the Corolla Altis, & introduced direct injection to it only in 2013 (8 years after Audi launched it on the A4, though also becuase Japanese car companies sell more cars to developing/undeveloped countries, where petrol is dirtier & would foul up the more delicate direct injection engines)
8:10 It strains credulity for ASML to claim 350 engineers develop & maintain 1.25B lines of source code, which would work out to 3.6 million lines for each engineer. This is doubly-true if they are using UML & waterfall design (it's one way to approach high integrity software, but it is slow). "Lines of code in a product" often includes all of the dependencies which they may only use a fraction of and for the most part don't maintain. When car companies quote their numbers they include multiple different copies of embedded Linux, despite the fact that it is (a) worse than having a single common copy (b) they don't use the vast majority of that codebase (c) they don't really write or maintain that code either, other than the tiny parts they customize. This is of course setting aside the fact that software needs well-designed features instead of just complexity (more code). It's like quoting the weight of a car, rather than it's capabilities. Overall great video though, thanks for making this.
I use code generators. It's a bit like compilers : you may write a handful of lines but the toolchain may turn it into thousands. It's hard to tell how they count. Also, what if they deploy, say, 100 embedded processors in their machines with almost identical code ? Do you count the lines once, or 100 times ? I never care for lines of code as a metric of anything.
They cound after complier process 1st cross link. so all agrument not yet reduce ie. include math.sin they include every line of C-pure, CPU normal calculator, FPU optimize, that so huge in this process, may 1000 times compare 1 st language. I experience to wirte code when realtime critical process. machine code less than complier 20 times and do faster 8 times. with make space for harware interrupt vector 4 time free of usage. and spend may 20 to 100 time of 1st prototype. and faster 500x after done a OS optimize. and project crash after hardware change some interrupt vector. (by oem or limitation to project startup hardware design.)
James Bruce said " When car companies quote their numbers they include multiple different copies of embedded Linux, despite the fact that it is (a) worse than having a single common copy " In the automotive environment, various modules do their own thing and only share data not lines of code / processor time. For example, the radio looks at vehicle speed from the ABS system so volume can be raised to compensate for increased background noise. Using one copy of embedded Linux on a singular module would not work. ( unless you are speaking of multiple copies in a single module, maybe this being done to get around limited scan time? ) As for the question " . . . 100 embedded processors in their machines with almost identical code ? Do you count the lines once, or 100 times ? " Id say count the lines 100 times because if some of these lines of code were removed from a single module ( in the automotive environment example ) the system would not operate. I consider a line of code as critical as physical " hard parts ". Something else to consider, the number of lines of code is just to give non technical people * some grasp of the scale of the machine. Telling someone that the machine runs at 400 Mhz is somewhat intangible as many don't have a frame of reference. Tell these same people that there are XXX number of lines of computer code and they can picture phone books stacked as high as a 100 story building. * Non technical people as in, they are not programmers or chip designers but perhaps skilled in the art of manufacturing computer chips.
An American company (GCA) had 90% market share before Nikon and Canon entered the market. In a short period of time, the two Japanese companies displaced GCA which ultimately filed for bankruptcy protection and eventually went out of business entirely.
ASML had another huge innovation with the Twinscan. The developed a tool which had most of its equipment in the sub-fab and only a small footprint in the very costly cleanroom space. This was a real game changer.
Nice! Philips also had a huge research lab, the Natlab, in Eindhoven, and there is also close collaboration with the Technical University in Eindhoven (itself an offshoot of Philips' need for technically trained employees, I belief).
4:46 I have no words to describe this joke. It's so random and I'm not sure on which level of SAO jokes this one lies. Regardless, unexpected and good.
@@orangestapler8729 Certain Memes also cannot be properly explained. They make sence when you are yourselve immersed in the appropriate culture but not neccessarily otherwhise.
Really enjoyed your videos, especially the semiconductor videos. I am graduating my university soon and will be having my final round of interviews with ASML. I really want to thank you for the videos as I truly believe they are a huge part of my successful interviews with ASML. I hope you do realise that your videos go beyond educating people! I wish I could support you but I am still a poor university student :(
A consistent theme in the comments about success from sharing and accomodating other points of view makes better products and a more interesting world. Japan enjoyed this with VLSI and Europe has consistently been making beautiful collaborations. A more apparent one that comes to mind in the past was the construction of Concorde and modern Airbus. So many different companies and people involved from all over the world making amazing machines. Lessons for life in there somewhere.
The most important thing that the world has learnt from the fall of Japanese semiconductors companies and the rise of ASML is how the long arm of the US imperialistic jurisdiction and machinations have dictated the way the world semiconductor industry has developed only for the interests of the US monopoly and domination.
@@AO-ow6tt The US has only 12 percent of world's semicoductor manufacturing, behind Taiwan, Japan, China, Korea. If the US wanted to be imperialistic, they would have tried to crush these countries when they were building their semiconductor industries. The fact that it was the US that invented the semiconductor industry and still it let other countries take over it is fact enough that US is actually a decent country US does not have a monopoly yadumfak. US has only 12 percent of world' semiconductor manufacturing. Learn facts first and do proper research.. If you wanna know what war, imperialism and gencde looks like, look up europe's history. Europe has the blood of tens of millions of people on its hands..
@@charliecruger8393 You did not even get my point. What I mean is the US actually dictates the world on how and what it should do and what it should not to keep its hegemony and and world domination. The US uses its monopoly of semiconductors technology as a weapon to destroy any attempts by other countries "perceived as adversaries or enemies" to do better than the US.
ASML benefited a lot being in the EU. They also got support from all of the large international semiconductor manufacturing industries that competed with Japan's own semiconductor industry. People love to point out how technologically ahead Japan is compared to the rest of the world, but when the world decides to redirect their resources and collaborate against you, good luck trying to out do them. It's like a mom & pop store trying to out compete Walmart.
@@thorH. yeah but venture capitalist know that, the reason they invest in tech companies is if they turn profitable the investment will have huge return (because of their operating margin). Im pretty sure Piter Thiel have given money to 30shitty start ups to find gems like Facebook (invested 500k early into Facebook and that investment gave him 1bil).
@@janeblogs324 Insanely good ROI so far. Not directly through the loan itself but the trade it made possible. You can't earn much over trade from a broken and bombed country with a little economy.
it's amazing how Zeiss is basically the only company providing lenses to ASML, ASML is the only company providing EUV machines to TSMC and TSMC is basically the only provider for chips for a lot of companies
I don't think geopolitical factors caused the decline of Japan's vlsi lithography business. If Japan can foster innovations and the collaboration in the area, it may once again become the leader.
@@Coillcara I mean the ussr collapsed so the us stopped tolerating japanese cheap debts to the industries so they can sell on the lowest prices and bankrupt the us industries including chip making and boom asian crisis of 90s starts in japan where the bubble explodes and this crisis dragged country into the decline that they are still struggling with.
Very interesting video. It seems at the core of the issue is Japanese companies self-isolation and lack of information sharing came back to bite them, while EU companies collaborated and made more advances which allowed them to succeed. A good learning point to move forward, improve and always get better. In the end it doesn't matter how good an entity is, sharing and collaborating can always make it better.
You forgot to mention EUV is a US invention and has only license to ASML not Cannon because of Intel back then. Shutting the door for the Japanese. I believed it was done on purpose because the US was concerned about the Japanese dominating semiconductor.
I know a scientist (who did scientific photolithography) who talked about buying scientific equipment and said that the Canon and Nikon sales pitches focused so heavily on drawing parallels between the lenses in their scientific instruments and the lenses in their cameras, that at the end he felt like they'd persuaded him to buy a photo camera from them but maybe buy his scientific instrument from the Germans.
So strange. It's like who cares about your success in cameras when you're selling us a damn DUV lithography machine? Lithography is probably the closest thing we have to magic, it sells itself.
Every chip uses lower resolution tools for vias and metal levels, so many fabs like mine use ASML for the fine details and Nikon for the bigger stuff. Easier to get parts for Nikons, although when talking to an ASML field engineer, there are so many little things like the crystal prism which replaces the fly-eye lens, its amazing. I'm just a process tech, but I love this stuff, I only want to work in Photo. Would love to hear your take on maskless solutions.
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Aside from EUV ,even many Japanese economy specialists now consider Japan is no more a developed country but an intermediate one due to lack of technology development. Japan's overreliance on optics and chemics was one of the reasons. Now Korea makes multiterabyte storage on a thumbnail while Japan only achieved a few hundred gigabytes on optical storage. Computers no more have optical drives included. Japan made some very huge magnetic tape but companies now use JBOD made in Thailand only. As digital is now one and the only thing that matters, we should consider Thailand which also has a more improived public traffic system as being the new developed country. It makes all of the JBOD storage devices.
Without naming people or going into too much detail, ASML at that time was not the dominant player they are today, that was the Japanese suppliers (Cannon & Nikon). ASML had been trying to penetrate Samsung for years with no success and were constantly being blocked internally by individuals within the technical organization. It was the purchasing organization, which is extremely powerful inside Samsung, that used the tactic of a “free demo tool” to get their nose under the tent. This is something ASML had refused to do in the past but the Samsung purchasing manager convinced ASML executives it was worth the investment. The rest they say is history.
Could you made also a video talk about TSMC go to Japan, how will that impact to the world. Or what's the reason makes Japan choose the TSMC, I will like to see something like that topic.
I love your work Jon (work in the industry at one of your featured companies) but I had to laugh out loud when you showed footage of Kabukicho, Japan’s most notorious red light district, while discussing the Japanese government compelling its companies to work together (13:08). Rather than Nikon or Canon, wasn’t it the other giant of Japanese optics who was tarnished by association with businessmen from this infamous neighborhood?
Considering the release date of this video I am a bit surprised you didn't talk anything about Mycronics new SLX-series that does not utilise EUV lasers and are still more precise than ASML's current product portfolio. The cost difference for these machines is astronomical where the SLX- sells for up to 8 MUSD while ASML seems to range between 120 and 180 MUSD. I would love to hear your opinion on wether Mycronic are capable or not to create one of these "generational shifts" away from EUV photolithography
Theory 5: Culture (adding to Theory 4) The business culture in The Netherlands is very flat. A simpel cleaner/worker with an idea will be listed to. We have a saying which translates broadly to: "Anyone may pee over it." We talk to our bosses with their first names and without much decoration.
True, and it's super hierarchical in Japan, and their culture of "nails that sticking out will be strike down" severely limit their potentials, basically a no risk taking culture.
@@LeodiAstoriaXIII this is true, and a fundamental flaw with many East Asian societies. But this does make them highly efficient producer of goods, as no one wants to be left alone, and company work schedules are much more streamlined. Singapore is very innovative though.
@@danielreader4814 can you explain that. Is Netherlands way of doing business than in the US? Is it less hierarchical? And based upon merit. Because I've met a few Dutch people and they all seem open but yet still hold onto the western hierechial system found in the US. And other countries.
The idea that UML was critical for ASML's software development is laughable. Japan missing the boat on software is true but that happened for very different reasons.
Right. I never met anyone who considered it a great design tool. The people who are forced to use it mostly write the code first, and then auto-generate the UML from that and then touch it up after. You could argue that might be a nice way to get an overview, and it might be good for diagrams etc in documentation and presentations. The idea that it gave ASML and edge though, is indeed laughable.
BTW IIRC around 2000 there was another generational step ASML equipment was going through. (though maybe not as industry wide significant) Going to larger wafers, iirc this was done simultaneous with the twinscan stuff. (to win back the time larger wafers took stepping with separate topology scan?)
Also could you made a video, talking about the "TFT-LCD Antitrust Litigation" which happened in 2008. That Antitrust event should be the most important event in the LCD history. After that, lots of Taiwanese and Japanese start hate Samsung. I think you might know much more about this than me.
I guess they hated Samsung because Samsung turned government witness. "Snitches get stitches" holds true both in the criminal world and in the corporate.
Speaking as a Silicon Valley Process Engineer who worked at companies that used Cannon, Nikon, and ASML Steppers, one thing you did not mention is that when U.S. Companies installed Japanese Steppers, and Japanese Field Service Engineers came out to work on them, there was always a lot of 'down-loading' of the proprietary information of the processes and techniques of the U.S. Companies that somehow, mysterioously, found it's way back to the Japanese Semiconductor Industry ( We used to call it ' Japan Inc. '. Gradually U.S. companies realized that Japanese equipment was a Trojan Horse that allowed Japan to steal U.S. research, at no cost, making Japanese companies more competitive and allowing them to squeeze U.S. companies out of world markets. With ASML, there was no such information theft. ASML treated proprietary information as confidentially as a lawyer would treat information he received from one of his clients - strict rules of ' privilege ' applied, and, as time went on, U.S. companies, and TSMC, all imparted implicit trust in ASML's honesty. As a result, when it came time to choose a Stepper Vendor, the word was, ' ASML, or NOBODY ! ' .
I always assumed that Japan hardware companies suffered tremendously from the shift to software requirements becoming more important. Sony hardware (hifi, portable audio, cam) was near untouchable until computers became the center of focus and they were too low too slow and got eaten.
I've been living in the Netherlands since 2001. What has been said about ASML, can also be said about the lovely Dutch: open, honest and easily approachable. It's in culture my dudes. It's in the culture 😘
According to the screenshot at 15:14 Ibiden, JSr (chip packaging, materials). I know for example that Japanese firms pretty much have a monopoly on ultra-pure hydrogen flouride to clean semiconductors.
While you mention the use of UML as a software advantage, but it would be interesting to note if there was a more fundamental software/platform shift - for example, were there more sensors? Or did they switch to a microcontroller framework or embedded Linux? Certainly, I could see that expanded control required more sophisticated controls at the hardware, OS and application level.
ASML's parent ASM aslo plays a critical role in the industry, as it manufactures the equipment, needed for wafer production. You can tell about them as well, as well as about the others in this segment of the supply chain.
I'm surprised you didn't even mentioned one of the most important factors: patents. For each of these technological breakthroughs, there's a set of patents that take 20 years to expire, therefore ASML's competitors were legally unable to replicate them. If the first Twinscan machine was released in 2001, that means its related patents aren't expiring until this year. However it's also likely that ASML has licensed its tech to Canon, Nikon and others, perhaps with some delay. This would be convenient for them just to avoid antitrust issues.
Nikon is now selling a "resolution enhancer" now, that is basically a clone of the E-Chuck on the ASML PAS/Twinscan. I'm pretty sure its because of the patent expiring.
@@ChatGPT1111 That's a common misconception about China. If that's the case, they would be already copying a lot of tech from western companies. Think Boston Dynamics or the M1 from Apple.
@@ChatGPT1111 As if china could deliver the neccessary quality if nobody show them how to do it. Thats chinas biggest benefit of the greedy western managment world. We give them our technology and know how because we thougt they are to stupid to copy it or even thinking they would stick to contracts :D Without the big industrial movement to china from the western tech corps they would still be 90% farmers.
Actual reason: US national labs which hold the majority of patents related to EUV only license the tech to ASLM and not the Japanese. The Japanese (economy) were getting too big for US' liking so the US decided to take Japan down a peg and insure lithography tech remain controlled by the US
A good lesson for countries who want to join the rank of developed countries: don't go shortcuts, don't do things expediently, take care of your population and ensure population growth continue no matter what.
Other than TEL, Japan maintained dominance in one lithography area where it has never been surpassed: photoresist and multilayer spin-on materials. I worked for an American competitor to these companies (comprised mainly of Shin Etsu, TOK, and JSR, as well as Nissan Chemical's semiconductor materials division) and it was laughable how far behind we were. I eventually left because continuing to be employed there while standing in front of customers with these entrenched suppliers was a personal embarrassment. Competing with someone like Shin Etsu whose entire history was built on organosilicon materials and polymers is a fool's errand.
Hope you enjoyed the video. For other videos about ASML, check out the ASML Analysis playlist: ua-cam.com/play/PLKtxx9TnH76R3D0aXnw-IVVaA383XTfMv.html
Loving the video. The audio seems a bit low though. I have to turn up my iPad all the way to really hear it. Usually at half volume.
Do you have a twitter so I can link to you when I share your videos?
I've appreciated all the videos.
Regards.
For someone focused on Asia, I find it weird that you don't say Communist Party of China (CPC).
Excellent analysis. Curious about the end though. Do you think that ASML is in danger of becoming another Cannon in developing the next generation?
I worked for a supplier of an element used on ASML machines (PAS, XT, AT). I think you might add that ASML leveraged their "systems engineering" approach far better than anyone else. Especially in the early days (and perhaps still today) ASML defined how some functional element needed to perform (and fit within a well-defined space) - and then leveraged the heck out of the engineering, manufacturing and materials management of the supplier. So, while they may have had many of their own engineers and scientists, they also had an RD&E group of 1000's more distributed around the globe. And if you shipped a prototype to Veldhoven that didn't work as expected, and just as you have commented in this excellent video (and as noted in some of the prior comments) - they were tremendously supportive to work through the deficiency. I can claim this was not always the case for any other stepper manufacturer - Japanese or US. I loved my trips to ASML. The work stayed on focus, problems got solved. No politics.
Always intriguing to hear from someone with inside knowledge. Thanks for this.
Thanks for sharing your insider info, adds to the video's story!
Dutch workplaces have surprisingly little politics outside the straight up casual talks.
This might be the best hiring pr they get.
This videos and the coments are really something great. They give me an insightful Window to whats happening around the world, and how it's transforming our lives . In my home country we are still thinking in a second agrarial reform and how spaniards do us wrong. I hate Perú so much. no dumb PC polítics just hard work and geniusness
I have worked 23 years for ASML. I believe this video is pretty accurate, and well done. We've had failures along the way, but my company has learned valuable lessons along our journey. I agree that ASML places high value on its employees. It's weird, but the item I hate most about my company is the loss of people recently due to retirement. Talented people, who've added so much value to the company, and my work environment. It's like losing a family member, or friend. It's been a joy to work for ASML. I'm glad I found this content provider.
any tips on how to get a job at ASML? Is it as hard or harder than getting a job at Intel? what's the work life balance like?
@@bunnypeople ASML thrives on creating personal connections. Twenty years ago, work life balance was awful, but as a company we've grown to be better. They don't like their employees to work over sixty hours a week, and have given me time off every time I've asked. Not once have they said no in the last twenty years. Most customer support engineers starting, work a four day on, three day off, three day on, four day off, twelve hour shift. ASML pays
I've worked at Intel for ASML, and prefer the ASML culture. ASML requires a technical degree for most jobs, and we hire for long term. It takes years for us to train an engineer and the first month is truly the worst. New hires have to complete many hours of computer based training that stress safety and an overall machine build. Its the most tedious thing I can imagine, but once past it, they mentor an engineer to solve problems. Many of my coworkers have been around for over twenty plus years. I think its about the same to get a job at ASML, as Intel.
Such pristine corporate culture 😌
Nice to hear that you worked in such a renouned high tec enviourment. To my understanding people working there are highly talented. Kind Regards
@@johnmaddux7866starting 1st of september as a assembly technician cant wait
I am from the Netherlands and work for ASML. In the 90's ASML made an important move, the move they already made with Zeiss. ASML involved important suppliers in a early development stage. For example, I worked as a sr project / program manager among other project on the heart of the recticle stage of the EUV machine. As a specialist in high end machining of extreme complex parts and extreme exotic materials, we were involved very early stage. Both parties have huge benefits from this approach. This open approach is typical a "Dutch" approach, it's a direct way of working and based on trust.
Further on ASML has an a huge organisation in which many nationalities are accommodated. ASML spents a lot of time to assimilate them all.
Last but not least, at ASML they know that employees are the gold of the company. ASML rewards employees on a great way. The result is that almost every ASML employee and suplier is proud to work at these high end prodcts. The moral at the whole battlefront is very high. This all combined with a sober general approach made that ASML could build a machine no else can (at this moment). I am proud to work for that company.
EUV, LLC
@@nick21614 at the end of the 90's ASML joined the EUV-LLC program. I think this also is an example of out of the box thinkig, imho.
@@adrian.banninksy Yes but ASML is also lucky the USA didnt let the Japanese companies join
Yada yada yada. Lol. It’s because you have free access to western technologies, most importantly US technologies in the domain of semiconductors. US isn’t afraid that a Dutch company controls the EUV market, or semiconductor technologies, but it was afraid of the Japanese controlling it, now the Chinese. That’s the real story. Did ASML do the right things at the right moments? Absolutely. Not discrediting any hard work by its employees. But having all the freedom to operate without US sanctions is a lot easier than doing business like Huawei or other Chinese companies.
@@lordlee6473 Chinese, Japanese companies suffered because they stole IP and flooded markets with below cost products. Plus Chinese do spying using their equipments. Big Red flags
The Japanese Ringi system is quite a hoot. I worked for a Japanese semico. To get my project approved I had to put the project description on the upper portion of an A4 page with the lower portion blank. Then that page was circulated to all the GM's to place their ring seal on the lower portion. Took a while to ship the page overseas to imperial HQ, and one seal missing means the project doesn't launch. With that level of disorganization and lack of industry coherence, there was no way they were going to get to EUV.
I worked for one of the Japanese microscope companies for 16yrs. I can't even begin to express my frustration with their product development process.
I watched helplessly as they squandered one industry leading innovation after another; while the competition seized on the ideas and made intuitive leaps in advancing the technologies. Then they incredulously wondered why sales and market share dried up.
Must have been a fun experience lol
@Modox
The company is far to linear in there approach to product development. Missing obvious opportunities to capitalize on innovations and get way ahead of the competition. They would rest on their laurels for far too long; giving their competitors time to leap ahead.
@Modox They had got tech transfer from US without restriction before. Nikhon , Cannon can buy any machines or parts from American electronic companies freely. But after Washington acted against it, Japan were restricted to some prohibition law. Such this EUV light source from Cymer Inc.
@@alexlo7708 Yep, they fell into US trap because there's no chance US want another emperor country rises. Now they try to focus to bring down China.
@Modox delayed effect of the 1945 mushrooms.
The ASML factory site pictured in this video is nearly double the size now :D
As a biology student I still remember how we use to set up oil-immersed slides on microscope, it increased the resolving power and made the slides look more clearer. This technology is quite old yet effective.
Was thinking the same: immersion oil for high magnification.
For me, it was mainly a better picture. Bright and without defects.
I worked for ASML for two stints and a combination of 27 years. I recognize most of these comments. It was a wonderful company to work for, great hardworking people, and amazing engineering innovations. I have to give extra credit to Martin vd Brink for his technology and commercial leadership for all of the years I worked there. I spent just a few years in engineering and then was moved to sales. I will never forget how Martin championed the customers over our ‘almost perfect’ technology. We sometimes had machines that fully met all of our specifications but couldn’t print the customer patterns. We in the field could ‘dig in’ and say ‘sorry but nothing we can do, it is in spec’. Martin would come out and listen to the customer and take us to task saying something like ‘what good is a 50M dollars piece of capital equipment that doesn’t allow a customer to make their chips, you guys.’ (Of course a bit more colorful language helped.). He would then rally his team of top experts and try to uncover the problem and fix it in the design or software. We instituted a process of CSR or customer special request specifications ( which became an in depth dialogue and learning between customer R&D experts and ours) to build and test the next tools to what they really needed. Martin also saw the need for the special modeling software to tie chip design to the optics that we could build ( what became Brion). And finally he pushed against I suppose a lot of financial pushback to develop EUV when it looked like it would be too expensive to design, build, and sell. He and our EVP of sales, Sunny Stalnaker, along with our entire board of management partnered with the big customers to drive EUV past all of the naysayers. Truly a huge accomplishment in leadership as well as of course brilliant R&D within ASML, Zeiss, Cymer and all other suppliers. I am truly grateful for all of my years at ASML and having had the experience of working under this amazing leadership. I am also grateful to all of our customers who pushed us, hounded us, and shared with us this wonderful experience of bringing this mind boggling technology to the world!
starting 1st of september as a assembly tech cant wait
Just found your channel, I recently retired after almost 40 years in the semiconductor equipment industry. Your stories bring back many memories. ASML’s tie up with Samsung was a critical turning point for them as well as the Japanese suppliers. I know the gentleman from Samsung who played the (a) major role in kicking off this relationship, that still exists today so I’ve heard the details of what transpired from Samsungs perspective. Keep making these videos.
Would you recommend someone to join the semiconductor field ? Working on the equipment that is ?
Thinking about applying
@@tysonsmith9991 Yes, I would encourage someone to come into the industry. Supporting the equipment is a great way to start. Depending on the company it could offer extensive travel and long hours but the rewards are many. The technology is nothing short of amazing, the people are some of the smartest on the planet, it’s a truly global community and you’re genuinely helping to change the world. Yes, it’s an excellent career direction.
What details did you hear of what transpired from Samsungs perspective?
I'm friends with an electronics consultant that used to make designs for ASML. He told me that there they try solving everything first via optics, otherwise they resort to electronic systems (He wrote a ranking, but I can't recall it). His design methods spun out of TU Delft back in the 80s/90s, out of which very great designers and spin-offs were created. I'm a foreigner here, but I feel fortunate I can learn with such incredible and talented people.
Good job, I enjoy listening to your tech documentaries while I work, better than radio.. Cheers from Seoul
You know, this is what makes the Internet so great. I get to have a mental conversation with someone who knows way more about what I am interested in from halfway across the world sitting here in my chair in San Marcos California. Thank you for the video!
Sincerely,
A subscriber
Sony is an example of Japanese companies’ generally inability to collaborate. Sony’s internal departments don’t even like working together so while each division can produce great products they seldom collaborate to make anything cohesively good… and that’s a lack of collaboration just within the same company much less trying to work with others.
Excellent video and brought back many great memories. I operated and repaired many of the early litho machines, Perkin-Elmer, GCA-DSW, Canon MPA's and FPA's, Hitachi's LDI's (in house steppers) and even the early ASML's. I always preferred the Canons as my favorite probably because I used them the longest. We used Tokyo Electron coat/develop and Hitachi in-house coat/develop equipment. Great memories - thanks again.
Can't get enough of these ASML videos! well done!
An amazingly accurate account of what transpired behind the lithography industry. You got it spot on the semiconductor industry reaches its current advancement through endless collaborations and cross learning between countries. The current atmosphere of deglobalisation will slow down the future technology development for sure.
Well digital design is also getting saturated. And there is a big push to automate design processes.
Our semiconductor solutions are getting to their peak.
The back and forth on who retains the #1 is amazing. Competition moves world forward.
actually, if you watched the video and read some of the top comments: good collaboration with suppliers, academia,etc. and customers is what gave them the edge.
No under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism is exactly the opposite.
@@autohmae Yes they did that (cooperation) to outcompete others. Funny how immoral you think competition is.
@@jthunders what is the opposite of man expolits man?
If you flip it around, “man exploits man” is still “man exploits man” lol
The presentation of the information in this video is top-notch. It's always great to have relevant content but organizing it in a way that makes it easy for the viewer to assimilate that information is also a great skill to possess for all UA-camrs.
Another great video Jon. I recall that ASML also asked the foundries including TSMC, Intel and Samsung to invest in them in order to help them fund their R&D
I believe he mentions this, sort of indirectly, when talking about euv. Somewhere in the middle of the video.
anyone else have to crank up the volume to 100% to listen to him? the content are always superb but the audio is only the one thing that can be improved.
Yeah Jon, your voice clarity is fine, but please just bump up the audio gain more
Right click, stats for nerds, look at the dB.
Many yt uploads are out of range, the uploaders simply don't check/care
Yes, the audio is definitely too quiet.
Yes, the volume is way too low.
Then the ads blow your ears out.
I can remember using oil immersion microscopes way back in college in 1985, we used an oil that had a specific refractive index a close to the refractive index as glass as possible, and it worked really well.
I live in Belgium and i've passed dozens of times in front of the IMC buildung without knowing what it was, now i know^^
It’s unfortunate that there is no discussion of the impact of Cymer and Gigaphoton and the influence of TSM/Intel investment in making EUV a success. It took 20 years to develop a viable EUV source that could compete with 193nm laser immersion lithography.
Cymer is most important. Lenses from Zeiss or Japanese companies will be replaced by metalens in cameras but only Cymer makes the light sources. When Korea finally replaces EUV with X-ray and particle beam for the subnanometre age, EUV will be used for lower density devices.
Too little about the USA and their govs typical "fair-play" of competition in the market. Not much on ASML using all of the most innovate Samsung equippment.
@@HanSolo__ Why shouldn't the DoE advance US interests?
As a field service engineer for Canon's Litho division, my cowokers and I are always geeking out about lithography machines and how crazy advanced the ASML machines are to achieve the geometries they have been able to. Right now Canon's bread and butter is mostly in its i-line steppers which are good for 350nm nodes and KrF scanners which I'm told get down to about 90nm.
I think we saw a similar kind of situation when Sony took the market lead from Canon with its mirrorless technology.
Sony had three generations' experience from the field when Canon launched their first, technically mediocre, mirrorless.
In the meantime, Sony's R&d had come up with novel solutions in optical technology and especially the way image recognition was used in the focusing system.
Canon and Nikon have something wrong with their culture, they cannot adapt to changes.
Canon didn't really believe in mirrorless technology I remember (probably due to doubts over its effectiveness). Generally Japanese companies are more conservative & practice more incremental than radical innovation I think e.g. a rice cooker whose pot has a convex base for more even heat distribution (a design adopted from traditional Japanese cooking pots too). Toyota also continue using 4-speed auto transmissions as late as 2012 e.g. in the Corolla Altis, & introduced direct injection to it only in 2013 (8 years after Audi launched it on the A4, though also becuase Japanese car companies sell more cars to developing/undeveloped countries, where petrol is dirtier & would foul up the more delicate direct injection engines)
Funny that Sony still dominates the CMOS image sensor market.
Jon,
Just week after week, really superb stuff. Well done and thank you!
I’d like to see a video on ASM international!
Amazing content, looking forward to your analysis about LAM research
Once again Sir.., Your Research, Analysis and organization of facts are all summed up to be PHENOMENAL...
Thanks & Regards
8:10 It strains credulity for ASML to claim 350 engineers develop & maintain 1.25B lines of source code, which would work out to 3.6 million lines for each engineer. This is doubly-true if they are using UML & waterfall design (it's one way to approach high integrity software, but it is slow).
"Lines of code in a product" often includes all of the dependencies which they may only use a fraction of and for the most part don't maintain. When car companies quote their numbers they include multiple different copies of embedded Linux, despite the fact that it is (a) worse than having a single common copy (b) they don't use the vast majority of that codebase (c) they don't really write or maintain that code either, other than the tiny parts they customize.
This is of course setting aside the fact that software needs well-designed features instead of just complexity (more code). It's like quoting the weight of a car, rather than it's capabilities.
Overall great video though, thanks for making this.
Code math. 👍
I use code generators. It's a bit like compilers : you may write a handful of lines but the toolchain may turn it into thousands. It's hard to tell how they count. Also, what if they deploy, say, 100 embedded processors in their machines with almost identical code ? Do you count the lines once, or 100 times ? I never care for lines of code as a metric of anything.
Libraries,framework
They cound after complier process 1st cross link. so all agrument not yet reduce ie. include math.sin they include every line of C-pure, CPU normal calculator, FPU optimize, that so huge in this process, may 1000 times compare 1 st language. I experience to wirte code when realtime critical process. machine code less than complier 20 times and do faster 8 times. with make space for harware interrupt vector 4 time free of usage. and spend may 20 to 100 time of 1st prototype. and faster 500x after done a OS optimize. and project crash after hardware change some interrupt vector. (by oem or limitation to project startup hardware design.)
James Bruce said " When car companies quote their numbers they include multiple different copies of embedded Linux, despite the fact that it is (a) worse than having a single common copy "
In the automotive environment, various modules do their own thing and only share data not lines of code / processor time. For example, the radio looks at vehicle speed from the ABS system so volume can be raised to compensate for increased background noise. Using one copy of embedded Linux on a singular module would not work. ( unless you are speaking of multiple copies in a single module, maybe this being done to get around limited scan time? )
As for the question " . . . 100 embedded processors in their machines with almost identical code ? Do you count the lines once, or 100 times ? "
Id say count the lines 100 times because if some of these lines of code were removed from a single module ( in the automotive environment example ) the system would not operate. I consider a line of code as critical as physical " hard parts ".
Something else to consider, the number of lines of code is just to give non technical people * some grasp of the scale of the machine. Telling someone that the machine runs at 400 Mhz is somewhat intangible as many don't have a frame of reference. Tell these same people that there are XXX number of lines of computer code and they can picture phone books stacked as high as a 100 story building.
* Non technical people as in, they are not programmers or chip designers but perhaps skilled in the art of manufacturing computer chips.
What the hell, this is the most informative youtube video I’ve seen in a while. 👍
An American company (GCA) had 90% market share before Nikon and Canon entered the market. In a short period of time, the two Japanese companies displaced GCA which ultimately filed for bankruptcy protection and eventually went out of business entirely.
ASML had another huge innovation with the Twinscan. The developed a tool which had most of its equipment in the sub-fab and only a small footprint in the very costly cleanroom space. This was a real game changer.
Nice! Philips also had a huge research lab, the Natlab, in Eindhoven, and there is also close collaboration with the Technical University in Eindhoven (itself an offshoot of Philips' need for technically trained employees, I belief).
4:46
I have no words to describe this joke. It's so random and I'm not sure on which level of SAO jokes this one lies.
Regardless, unexpected and good.
we need more of this
Funny how?
@@mikakorhonen5715
It's a joke one cannot explain properly
@@grischu8277 I bet. Not fan of Japanese popular culture.
@@orangestapler8729 Certain Memes also cannot be properly explained. They make sence when you are yourselve immersed in the appropriate culture but not neccessarily otherwhise.
Really enjoyed your videos, especially the semiconductor videos. I am graduating my university soon and will be having my final round of interviews with ASML. I really want to thank you for the videos as I truly believe they are a huge part of my successful interviews with ASML.
I hope you do realise that your videos go beyond educating people! I wish I could support you but I am still a poor university student :(
Good luck on your interview!
Great news. How's the outcome ?
Hope you aced
Did you got the job?
You got the job?
A consistent theme in the comments about success from sharing and accomodating other points of view makes better products and a more interesting world. Japan enjoyed this with VLSI and Europe has consistently been making beautiful collaborations. A more apparent one that comes to mind in the past was the construction of Concorde and modern Airbus. So many different companies and people involved from all over the world making amazing machines. Lessons for life in there somewhere.
The most important thing that the world has learnt from the fall of Japanese semiconductors companies and the rise of ASML is how the long arm of the US imperialistic jurisdiction and machinations have dictated the way the world semiconductor industry has developed only for the interests of the US monopoly and domination.
How is it US imperialistic? ASML is dutch.
@@robertdavis1836 I did not mean ASML, the US is imperialistic in the way it dictates how it deals with and what it wants from other countries.
@@AO-ow6tt The US has only 12 percent of world's semicoductor manufacturing, behind Taiwan, Japan, China, Korea. If the US wanted to be imperialistic, they would have tried to crush these countries when they were building their semiconductor industries.
The fact that it was the US that invented the semiconductor industry and still it let other countries take over it is fact enough that US is actually a decent country
US does not have a monopoly yadumfak. US has only 12 percent of world' semiconductor manufacturing. Learn facts first and do proper research..
If you wanna know what war, imperialism and gencde looks like, look up europe's history. Europe has the blood of tens of millions of people on its hands..
@@charliecruger8393 You did not even get my point. What I mean is the US actually dictates the world on how and what it should do and what it should not to keep its hegemony and and world domination. The US uses its monopoly of semiconductors technology as a weapon to destroy any attempts by other countries "perceived as adversaries or enemies" to do better than the US.
@@charliecruger8393 or look at what US has done to the Indians?
your voice towards the end of the video is so soothing , it sounded like you wanted to console japan , give them hope
take care of yourself too John
ASML benefited a lot being in the EU. They also got support from all of the large international semiconductor manufacturing industries that competed with Japan's own semiconductor industry.
People love to point out how technologically ahead Japan is compared to the rest of the world, but when the world decides to redirect their resources and collaborate against you, good luck trying to out do them. It's like a mom & pop store trying to out compete Walmart.
Defo looking forward to the VLSI follow up video
"ASML lost money for the first 6 years of its life"
Tesla: Those are rookie numbers
🤣🤣🤣
Amazon was losing money for almost 2 decades
Almost all of those tech startups lose money in the beginning, or never actually turn a profit. Like Snapchat for example.
@@thorH. yeah but venture capitalist know that, the reason they invest in tech companies is if they turn profitable the investment will have huge return (because of their operating margin). Im pretty sure Piter Thiel have given money to 30shitty start ups to find gems like Facebook (invested 500k early into Facebook and that investment gave him 1bil).
The UK took 60 years to pay back USAS WWII loan. Terrible roi so far
@@janeblogs324 Insanely good ROI so far. Not directly through the loan itself but the trade it made possible.
You can't earn much over trade from a broken and bombed country with a little economy.
it's amazing how Zeiss is basically the only company providing lenses to ASML, ASML is the only company providing EUV machines to TSMC and TSMC is basically the only provider for chips for a lot of companies
These recent developments make somebody understand the need to keep innovation at the core of the business.
Lesson: get really really good at your field, rather than trying to do everything.
I like your representation, why Japan lost, you mentioned the technical factors. It would be great if you include geopolitics factors.
I don't think geopolitical factors caused the decline of Japan's vlsi lithography business. If Japan can foster innovations and the collaboration in the area, it may once again become the leader.
@@Coillcara Japan can’t foster innovation. It is in an accelerating death spiral and despises any non-Japanese influences.
@@Coillcara I mean the ussr collapsed so the us stopped tolerating japanese cheap debts to the industries so they can sell on the lowest prices and bankrupt the us industries including chip making and boom asian crisis of 90s starts in japan where the bubble explodes and this crisis dragged country into the decline that they are still struggling with.
watching this in light of their monster $380M lithography machine. great video, as always!
Very interesting video. It seems at the core of the issue is Japanese companies self-isolation and lack of information sharing came back to bite them, while EU companies collaborated and made more advances which allowed them to succeed. A good learning point to move forward, improve and always get better. In the end it doesn't matter how good an entity is, sharing and collaborating can always make it better.
2:26
1000 likes reached, looking forward to your VLSR research project video 🎉👍🏻
Great mini-documentary as usual!
Glad to have stumbled over your very interesting and high quality essay here on the Tube👍
You forgot to mention EUV is a US invention and has only license to ASML not Cannon because of Intel back then. Shutting the door for the Japanese. I believed it was done on purpose because the US was concerned about the Japanese dominating semiconductor.
Interesting topic and presentation on something that underpins plenty of the technology we take for granted and use every day.
Idea for next topic: what comes after (low/high NA) EUV.
I know a scientist (who did scientific photolithography) who talked about buying scientific equipment and said that the Canon and Nikon sales pitches focused so heavily on drawing parallels between the lenses in their scientific instruments and the lenses in their cameras, that at the end he felt like they'd persuaded him to buy a photo camera from them but maybe buy his scientific instrument from the Germans.
Yep Canon & Nikon also have a duopoly in DSLRs
So strange. It's like who cares about your success in cameras when you're selling us a damn DUV lithography machine? Lithography is probably the closest thing we have to magic, it sells itself.
Super interested in finding out which semi conductor companies you are invested in!
Every chip uses lower resolution tools for vias and metal levels, so many fabs like mine use ASML for the fine details and Nikon for the bigger stuff. Easier to get parts for Nikons, although when talking to an ASML field engineer, there are so many little things like the crystal prism which replaces the fly-eye lens, its amazing. I'm just a process tech, but I love this stuff, I only want to work in Photo. Would love to hear your take on maskless solutions.
Another great video eassay. Thanks a lot for sharing all this valuable information.
4:44 So in conclusion canon and nikon lost to a dual wielding prodigy XD. Love that reference btw
Super informative as always. Thanks 👍
Please We need to know more about the VLSI research project
HOW TO DEFEAT UA-cam ADS. if you click on the reverse or forward buttons on the top left corner, you can skip ads, by clicking reverse then forward, the original video clip comes back without the ad. if the forward or reverse is blank, click on another video clip on the right, then click reverse arrow top left and the original video clip comes back to the same point you left off at, without having to watch those annoying ads
Aside from EUV ,even many Japanese economy specialists now consider Japan is no more a developed country but an intermediate one due to lack of technology development. Japan's overreliance on optics and chemics was one of the reasons. Now Korea makes multiterabyte storage on a thumbnail while Japan only achieved a few hundred gigabytes on optical storage. Computers no more have optical drives included. Japan made some very huge magnetic tape but companies now use JBOD made in Thailand only. As digital is now one and the only thing that matters, we should consider Thailand which also has a more improived public traffic system as being the new developed country. It makes all of the JBOD storage devices.
9:29 that is the key. Too many customers competing the same final semi products.
Could you do a video on how Varian Semiconductor (AMAT now)won over the implant market share. Great vid!
Without naming people or going into too much detail, ASML at that time was not the dominant player they are today, that was the Japanese suppliers (Cannon & Nikon). ASML had been trying to penetrate Samsung for years with no success and were constantly being blocked internally by individuals within the technical organization. It was the purchasing organization, which is extremely powerful inside Samsung, that used the tactic of a “free demo tool” to get their nose under the tent. This is something ASML had refused to do in the past but the Samsung purchasing manager convinced ASML executives it was worth the investment. The rest they say is history.
Could you made also a video talk about TSMC go to Japan, how will that impact to the world. Or what's the reason makes Japan choose the TSMC, I will like to see something like that topic.
A high quality story. Thanks.
I love your work Jon (work in the industry at one of your featured companies) but I had to laugh out loud when you showed footage of Kabukicho, Japan’s most notorious red light district, while discussing the Japanese government compelling its companies to work together (13:08). Rather than Nikon or Canon, wasn’t it the other giant of Japanese optics who was tarnished by association with businessmen from this infamous neighborhood?
Oh come on, let the poor engineers have some fun after work
Thanks for this informative piece
Considering the release date of this video I am a bit surprised you didn't talk anything about Mycronics new SLX-series that does not utilise EUV lasers and are still more precise than ASML's current product portfolio. The cost difference for these machines is astronomical where the SLX- sells for up to 8 MUSD while ASML seems to range between 120 and 180 MUSD. I would love to hear your opinion on wether Mycronic are capable or not to create one of these "generational shifts" away from EUV photolithography
Glad I found this channel, really informative
Theory 5: Culture (adding to Theory 4)
The business culture in The Netherlands is very flat. A simpel cleaner/worker with an idea will be listed to. We have a saying which translates broadly to: "Anyone may pee over it." We talk to our bosses with their first names and without much decoration.
True, and it's super hierarchical in Japan, and their culture of "nails that sticking out will be strike down" severely limit their potentials, basically a no risk taking culture.
@@LeodiAstoriaXIII this is true, and a fundamental flaw with many East Asian societies. But this does make them highly efficient producer of goods, as no one wants to be left alone, and company work schedules are much more streamlined. Singapore is very innovative though.
This is one of the big reasons i love working in the netherlands, everyone is and should be treated as people, not positions
@@danielreader4814 can you explain that. Is Netherlands way of doing business than in the US? Is it less hierarchical? And based upon merit. Because I've met a few Dutch people and they all seem open but yet still hold onto the western hierechial system found in the US. And other countries.
@@COLDoCLINCHER37 I work at ASML in Netherlands and I don't really feel a real hierarchy in my work place rather a sense of being equal
My son is having a job interview tomorrow at ASML
The idea that UML was critical for ASML's software development is laughable. Japan missing the boat on software is true but that happened for very different reasons.
Right. I never met anyone who considered it a great design tool. The people who are forced to use it mostly write the code first, and then auto-generate the UML from that and then touch it up after. You could argue that might be a nice way to get an overview, and it might be good for diagrams etc in documentation and presentations. The idea that it gave ASML and edge though, is indeed laughable.
BTW IIRC around 2000 there was another generational step ASML equipment was going through. (though maybe not as industry wide significant) Going to larger wafers, iirc this was done simultaneous with the twinscan stuff. (to win back the time larger wafers took stepping with separate topology scan?)
Also could you made a video, talking about the "TFT-LCD Antitrust Litigation" which happened in 2008.
That Antitrust event should be the most important event in the LCD history. After that, lots of Taiwanese and Japanese start hate Samsung. I think you might know much more about this than me.
I guess they hated Samsung because Samsung turned government witness. "Snitches get stitches" holds true both in the criminal world and in the corporate.
Nicely explained 👏
Speaking as a Silicon Valley Process Engineer who worked at companies that used Cannon, Nikon, and
ASML Steppers, one thing you did not mention is that when U.S. Companies installed Japanese
Steppers, and Japanese Field Service Engineers came out to work on them, there was always a lot
of 'down-loading' of the proprietary information of the processes and techniques of the U.S. Companies
that somehow, mysterioously, found it's way back to the Japanese Semiconductor Industry ( We used
to call it ' Japan Inc. '.
Gradually U.S. companies realized that Japanese equipment was a Trojan Horse that allowed Japan
to steal U.S. research, at no cost, making Japanese companies more competitive and allowing them
to squeeze U.S. companies out of world markets.
With ASML, there was no such information theft. ASML treated proprietary information as confidentially
as a lawyer would treat information he received from one of his clients - strict rules of ' privilege ' applied,
and, as time went on, U.S. companies, and TSMC, all imparted implicit trust in ASML's honesty.
As a result, when it came time to choose a Stepper Vendor, the word was, ' ASML, or NOBODY ! ' .
That is absolutely nuts
But only the Chinese get a bad rap for IP theft?
Were there any court case around this ? sound very interesting.
US just down-load the brightest and best people from around the world using H1B visa.
@@anona1443 These people left at their will. The US just pays more.
Very informative and useful. Thanks a lot !
Amazed that uml is singled out as a good software practise! It was freshmen year stuff and we didnt quite see how it would be so important
No mention of Cymer? Love your story,
I always assumed that Japan hardware companies suffered tremendously from the shift to software requirements becoming more important. Sony hardware (hifi, portable audio, cam) was near untouchable until computers became the center of focus and they were too low too slow and got eaten.
That's certainly true of their consumer products. The UIs on the likes of Sony products are universally garbage.
Great business video
Impressive research and reporting.
Thank you and appreciate the effort. Awesome.
Any lay man can understand how ASML came to be the dominant position.
Hey just wanted to say you put up great content! Keep going
I've been living in the Netherlands since 2001. What has been said about ASML, can also be said about the lovely Dutch: open, honest and easily approachable.
It's in culture my dudes. It's in the culture 😘
Lies
@@cashdinero0 Dude 😂
Sounds very unrealistic "coming from ex colony
and help from US , banning Japan
1 year later. 18 thousand likes. Congrats Asian.
Great vid! Just curious, what are some examples of the Japanese hidden champions you talk about near the end?
According to the screenshot at 15:14 Ibiden, JSr (chip packaging, materials). I know for example that Japanese firms pretty much have a monopoly on ultra-pure hydrogen flouride to clean semiconductors.
I was expecting this to be a dry video so 4:44 really caught me off guard lol
While you mention the use of UML as a software advantage, but it would be interesting to note if there was a more fundamental software/platform shift - for example, were there more sensors? Or did they switch to a microcontroller framework or embedded Linux? Certainly, I could see that expanded control required more sophisticated controls at the hardware, OS and application level.
ASML's parent ASM aslo plays a critical role in the industry, as it manufactures the equipment, needed for wafer production.
You can tell about them as well, as well as about the others in this segment of the supply chain.
ASML doesn't have a parent company
I'm surprised you didn't even mentioned one of the most important factors: patents. For each of these technological breakthroughs, there's a set of patents that take 20 years to expire, therefore ASML's competitors were legally unable to replicate them. If the first Twinscan machine was released in 2001, that means its related patents aren't expiring until this year. However it's also likely that ASML has licensed its tech to Canon, Nikon and others, perhaps with some delay. This would be convenient for them just to avoid antitrust issues.
Nikon is now selling a "resolution enhancer" now, that is basically a clone of the E-Chuck on the ASML PAS/Twinscan. I'm pretty sure its because of the patent expiring.
But surely you know patents would not stop China, even for a second.
@@ChatGPT1111 That's a common misconception about China. If that's the case, they would be already copying a lot of tech from western companies. Think Boston Dynamics or the M1 from Apple.
Patents are a necessity in this game.
But secret know-how is more important and decisive, I believe.
@@ChatGPT1111
As if china could deliver the neccessary quality if nobody show them how to do it. Thats chinas biggest benefit of the greedy western managment world. We give them our technology and know how because we thougt they are to stupid to copy it or even thinking they would stick to contracts :D
Without the big industrial movement to china from the western tech corps they would still be 90% farmers.
Im an engineer on the EUV modules at ASML.
ASML is the most important company on planet Earth. And it's European!
I thought tsmc was the most important company.
Good video! Thank you.
Actual reason: US national labs which hold the majority of patents related to EUV only license the tech to ASLM and not the Japanese. The Japanese (economy) were getting too big for US' liking so the US decided to take Japan down a peg and insure lithography tech remain controlled by the US
Thank you. Well appreciated.
A good lesson for countries who want to join the rank of developed countries: don't go shortcuts, don't do things expediently, take care of your population and ensure population growth continue no matter what.
Other than TEL, Japan maintained dominance in one lithography area where it has never been surpassed: photoresist and multilayer spin-on materials. I worked for an American competitor to these companies (comprised mainly of Shin Etsu, TOK, and JSR, as well as Nissan Chemical's semiconductor materials division) and it was laughable how far behind we were. I eventually left because continuing to be employed there while standing in front of customers with these entrenched suppliers was a personal embarrassment. Competing with someone like Shin Etsu whose entire history was built on organosilicon materials and polymers is a fool's errand.
The SAO reference alone deserves a like and subscribe