Bishop Barron's focus on the "Beauty" of the Church, (teaching, writing, architecture, music, etc.) as in in the Catholicism Series, PIvotal Players and many of his tools, invoke piety, reverence, and awe. In the filming and editing of these series, many many people are captured in a state of piety. Those are the films clips for me that are most memorable - international, beautiful, humble people deep in prayer .
P.S. Love that I found your channel. Very balanced and thorough. I have the same frustration when jt comes to the Father Martins AND the Taylor Marshalls.
Agree with a lot. The only thing I would add is this - the piety in the Novus Ordo that I have seen in Poland is astounding. Having experienced that, I agree that it's absolutely not about TLM vs NO.
I love that people can honestly say how much they love Word on Fire, and MEAN it, whilst pointing out a few flaws. Word on Fire has changed my life. It's ignited the Catholic faith in my heart. But to say that, doesn't mean I agree with EVERYTHING that's ever come out of WOF, but I would stop way short of ever saying I don't love it. So often when people say, I love 'Word on Fire, but.....' then there is often some massive, condescending, awful remark coming. It's like they don't really love it, they just feel compelled to soften the blow. But I don't get that from you guys. I feel genuine love for Bishop Barron and his ministry coming out of you guy, but with a few charitable comments for further reflection that you feel is necessary. I think this is the right balance. Much love boys.
If we had a closer Byzantine Catholic parish it would be a pretty easy choice to switch rites, and we even have good and reverent priests saying the N.O. where we live. Fortunate that they don't have balloons and banners, it's just hard to get away from the silly '60s hymns that change every Sunday so nobody knows how the song actually goes. Divine liturgy is otherworldly. Miss it from being Orthodox for sure.
Watch this space....I think you boys are perfect to see in big discussions! I think it's cool that it will come about organically through people getting refreshed like from a little spring on your channel and genuinly spreading the word! There's LOTS of people that you are hitting hard with how you think, explain & even sometimes have role eyes with the guys like TM. He drives me so mad I quit watching..lol..my eyes were rolling around the back of my neck before finding their sockets again lol. Hollow old hoo haa like 'infiltration, ancient alien' stuff is as satisfying as an empty burger :) Well done guys, and a very Happy Easter ☘
As a convert from evangelical protestantism and never having been to a TLM mass my feeling about the novis ordo is generally positive except that I dont feel sufficient reverence is given to the eucharist. I don't feel comfortable with lay eucharistic ministers who often fail to say "the body of christ" and who in my opinion are not in persona christi and therefore should not be distributing the eucharist. But, I dont mind the Glory and Praise, I think it is beautiful and i have been part of music ministry in my parish singing those songs with real empathy. Having been Born Again and profoundly touched by God as a protestant I feel that many Catholics fail to convert in that way and that I am unusual in my personal relationship with Christ. Also when I see One for Israel ministries and their conversion stories I see they are not converted by liturgy but by prayer of the heart and sincere reception of the message of Christ. I have seen sincere humble prostration of the body in protestant evangelical services. I think what is missing is not so much liturgy of prostration though eucharistic liturgy should be better, but the message of Christ so profoundly spoken as to lead to the prostration of the body with sincerity. Basically what I'm saying is that having prostration writen into the liturgy is no guarantee of conversion but having the gospel message clearly expounded repeatedly is. Being converted or Born Again will make us prostrate ourselves as the Jewish converts and many protestants do.
You would enjoy the episode we did on The Cordial Catholic’s channel if you haven’t seen it yet. Go to our playlists, tap “interviews,” and give that one a listen. We talk quite a bit about the crisis of conversion in the Catholic Church and many of the virtues (and vices) of Protestantism which we can learn quite a bit from.
22:38 nail on the head. Though I would argue along the lines of Veterum Sapientia for the importance of the traditional languages with a little more force. Great channel guys. God bless you and keep you and save souls through your work.
Just subscribed after finding your channel by accident. Excellent discussion. The fading of authentic Catholic piety is enough to make one weep, and this came from the liberal influence in, and on, the Church. The worst thing, I think, to befall Bishop Barron was his elevation to Bishop. It has put upon him, in the current climate, constraints which make it very difficult for him to speak openly about the Liturgy and the disintegration of a Catholic piety.
Very true, the source of the apostolate is the Eucharistic liturgy, you can't give what you don't have. The apostolate or evangelisation is an extension of one's friendship with Jesus to others. St Jose Maria agrees with you. You can't be a good apostle if your heart is not full of Jesus, impossible.
There's no point in arguing with fellow Catholics about Novus Ordo vs. TLM because at this point each priest and layperson is on his own to find salvation (meaning, you can't trust your average priest/parish to steer you in the proper direction as in previous generations). Personally, even though the NO can be done reverently, I find it to be weak and feminine compared to the VO. There's a great book adjacent to this topic written by Leon J. Podles entitled "The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity".
Thanks for the feedback! I tend to agree with you on the femininity piece, but would add that its a specific *type* of femininity that the NO typically carries, and it is a brand of femininity that is foreign to historic/traditional feminine piety. Even as a piece of mysticism, it sort of fails to rise to the occasion. In my ideal world, we would have the Latin Mass and a one-to-one English translation of it, flourishing side by side... But, we got the NO instead.... So, we’ll have to find ways to infuse it with a proper piety (as a starting point) and perhaps get a couple of the (bizarre) Eucharistic canons that it presents as “options” dropped ! :) Thanks for the comment and for tuning in! -Steven
I actually told our pastor (that is, mine and these guys' pastor) about The Church Impotent. He too criticizes what he calls the "feminization" of the liturgy. While Podles believes the factors that drive men from the Church actually go much further back than Vatican II (and in fact has some positive things to say about VII ressourcement in its at least attempting to recover elements from an early Church that was more masculine in Her orientation), I think it would be interesting if the Catholic Brothers and/or the parish men's group consider reading The Church Impotent and discussing it. It's available free online.
@@Neb-ie5mj hey sorry about that. Here’s a couple of starting points for context to that statement. amp.smh.com.au/world/more-catholics-than-anglicans-in-britain-20071224-gdrubt.html www.catholicworldreport.com/2020/07/14/is-a-re-catholicization-of-britain-underway/
In a country where Catholics are a minority in terms of broad, raw head count, the total head count for weekly church attendance (a general litmus test for distinguishing ‘traditional’ vs ‘nominal’ Christians) shows that there are more Catholic butts in pews each week than Anglican ones. 861,000 Catholics go to Mass each week vs 852,000 Anglicans… There are only about 5 million Catholics in Britain, compared to 13.4 million Anglicans… So, the fact that Catholics lead in church attendance by that margin is incredible.
I love Bishop Barron. The proof is in the fruits. Check out the video topics on Barron’s channel vs. Taylor Marshall’s channel. One discusses the Real Presence at length, the other attacks individuals in the Church.
I agree. Barron may have a few blunders that really bother me (the Shapiro interview; the Rubin interview; and his general approach to liturgics) but some blunders in the record are not enough to sully an entire career of catechizing Catholics and evangelizing the unchurched.
@@TheCatholicBrothers I’m a revert to the faith. Came back in 2010. I’ve been reading Catholic books ever since, trying to explore the intellectual and spiritual classics. What study approach (specific books, order, etc) do you guys recommend I pursue? I l’ve read classics like Augustine, Teresa of Avila, and Thomas a Kempis. I’ve read modern commentators like Scott Hahn, Brant Pitre, and apologists from the Catholic Answers crowd. I recently began Lawrence Feingold’s textbook on the Eucharist (I have an intense devotion to the Eucharist and am a strong proponent of adoration. The fruits are immediate. I’ve experienced rapid spiritual growth from it).
@@TheCatholicBrothers I guess you missed the point. Oh well. Let's just put it this way: Galileo was wrong; the Church was right. Also, the moon landing is a fake. The moon is a light, as Genesis records.
Bishop Barron has public views which which are highly questionable. Hell being empty jumps out among others I wouldn’t describe them as flubs. He’s put a lot of thought into that topic and has numerous writings publicly disseminated justifying his view. He’s silent on many public figures receiving the Eucharist. He’s silent like so many other Bishops on many topics. Bishop Barron May have influenced both of you in a good way. But I tend to think that many of the people and groups you would describe as ‘rad trads’ are behind the resurgence that is occurring within the church on the traditional side. Timothy Gordon. The remnant. Restore the faith. Return to tradition. Taylor Marshall. Church Militant. Life site news. Crisis magazine. 1 Peter 5. Not Bishop Barron. When I speak with any other Catholics these are the people and groups mentioned. Clarity and Order are what is offered by tradition. And it is sorely lacking in the Church today. Especially by the bishops. And Taylor Marshall in particular has re-introduced to many of us practices most of us devoid of a Catholic life have ever even heard of. Not devoid because of our will. But because of our ignorance. Devoid because the clergy for the most part doesn’t speak of them. Lacking guidance and in a sea of parishioners mostly as clueless as we are. People like Taylor Marshall are actually very helpful. As are many of the ‘rad trads.’
I have been listening to both (Marshall and Barron) and have multiple books by Bishop Barron. I agree that clarity and order are offered by tradition. We do not need lukewarm Christians (especially among clergy). At this moment in history we need to be hot or cold. Otherwise, we are losing our identity. So I choose to listen to Taylor Marshall, Church Militant, etc and many other sites that are accessible to people who speak Polish.
Word on Fire is what the ruling class Catholics would like faithful to like, but the faithful just aren't that into it. It is aesthetic bobo Catholicism with almost no solid food in it. This is a pretentious, air-filled endorsement of a pretentious, air-filled ministry.
@@TheCatholicBrothers I don't know what you are surprised for. The Irish are not only well known for producing Saints, Keeping The Faith, and, Fighting For The Faith, we're also well known for Defending Our Country. I'm dying to see that "heretic" Barron in Ireland again, I'll drop kick it so hard that it'll take several operations to place it's balls back in order. "Thanks be to God for The Holy Sacrament Of Confession".... I love being an Irish 58 year old cradle Catholic
Yes, and that is quite unbecoming of traditional Catholics to insult his work like that (until those traditional Catholics can produce a ministry that is as effective in bringing people into the Church and making them grow in charity).
Sounds like modern Catholic theology . I’m not a fan of soft mellow Catholicism. Pope John Paul was definitely was not of that camp. He was orthodox and traditional.
Eh, orthodox, yes. traditional? He was and he wasn’t. He was the start of changing (?) church teaching surrounding the death penalty, sex scandals permeated, liturgical abuses flourished, liberal clerics were promoted and elevated, and there was some pretty overstated ecumenism and religious syncretism efforts, etc etc. The man was a saint, but his pontificate wasn’t perfect, and we shouldn’t idealize those years too much. Many problems we see under Francis were inaugurated under PJP.
@@TheCatholicBrothers I’m think I’m a traditional Catholic. My mother brought me up with traditional Catholic teaching and Values, but by all means I’m not perfect, far far from it. We have to remember after the attempted assassination on PJP, which The Bless Mother saved him from death, his physical health and strength started to deteriorate and never fully recovered. That event had an impact on his papacy. If I may say , I don’t think Bishop Baron is a bastion of orthodoxy. Too many of our Bishops teach a fluff gospel. Too many don’t speak about trad marriage, abortion, lgbt, and the very possibility of many many souls ending up in hell. God Bless you
I really like you guys and your take on things, but you haven't mentioned that everything Bp Barron produces seems to have a price tag on it. And its usually expensive. Buy my new book! Buy my new boxed DVD set! Buy Bp Barron's new edition of The Bible! (Sorry, man. I have at least seven different editions of the Bible already. I don't think the world needs another one). He isn't called BOTI (bishop of the internet) for nothing. To me, Barron is just a Catholic version of Joel Osteen. It's totally incongruous for Barron to cash in on the portrayal of Catholic tradition in his documentary, then start bashing the "rad-trads" because it pleases the current Vatican administration. Anything for a buck.
Yea I see what you’re saying on that last piece- it was weird when he started blasting traditionalists and lumping them in with the Church Militant types, as if they were one mold. But, in terms of him charging for everything, I’m positive that he takes none of that money into his personal pocket. WOF is now a sizable operation with many (really great) employees who need to be paid and given benefits. In today’s climate, that gets expensive and it’s responsible to compensate employees well. Joel Osteen, on the other hand, is purely an entrepreneur pocketing the cash.. Protestant ministers work for themselves, while Catholic ministers work for the Church and their stipends are regulated. I think it worth noting as well that Barron was specifically asked by his bishop in Chicago to do what he is doing now (Cardinal George). Otherwise, Barron would have still been a professor at the seminary out here. I’ve never detected a hint of vainglory in Barron, personally, and my priest (who studied under him) has nothing but good things to say about him. When Barron stays in his lane of philosophy, evangelization, and Thomist apologetics, he’s fantastic. It’s only when he steps into the liturgy wars arena that his content is very disappointing. Thanks for the comment!
I had a lot of respect for Cardinal George. But I don't know if he'd be pleased with his successor Blase Cupich. I don't think George's prediction that his successor would "die in prison or suffer martyrdom" will come true. So Barron's mandate may have come from Cardinal George, but he lives in California now (closer to Oprah and Meghan & Harry, I believe) and has gone all Hollywood. He can barely be bothered with the hoi polloi on the ground of his own parish. He had to be called out loudly by the laity to even say a rosary after the Serra statues were vandalized. I think Barron is enthralled by the smells, bells, and external trappings of our Roman Catholic Church. But I don't expect to hear him debate James Martin anytime soon. Nor have I ever heard of Barron praying outside of an abortion clinic with the rest of us poor slobs trying to live our faith. Meanwhile, his superiors in California, Archbishops Cordelione and Gomez are writing genuinely important op-eds in the WSJ and NYT. I wonder what would happen to Word on Fire if Barron followed suit?
@@alamedavigilante yea I think there’s some valid criticisms there. Sometimes I wonder if it’s just not in Barron’s nature to “fight.” I think, by nature, he is inclined toward academia and evangelism. So, he is fulfilling a niche that I think is helpful for the broader culture to engage with the church in a non-combative way, while other bishops have a charism that makes them fighters and ripe for the arena. This is my personal view of what Barron is about. What do you think about that?
I see Barron's latest post is his outrage about the State treatment of St. Junipero Serra. (The Truth About Junipero Serra). Good for him! I just challenged him in a comment to post a petition we can sign to send to Governor Newsom. A few hundred thousand signatures would have more of an effect than a few individual complaints. Let's see if the good bishop will accept the challenge to mobilize his followers. I'll sign it.
Just saw your video "Forgetting Taylor Marshall" (which has the comments off, so I decided to post my comment here) I thought you had very good points but talk about humility. Your obligation towards Christ become fogged by your lack of humility and constant giggling (reminds me of Kamala) and no Intellectual Generosity ...to quote you guys
Comments were turned off due to vulgarities being posted by Marshall’s foot soldiers, and we don’t want the comments section in our videos to become a stumbling block for potential seekers of Catholicism. Sorry you didn’t enjoy the episode. We try to keep content deep but the delivery light hearted so that people do not feel that the channel is ‘stiff.’ I believe we were intellectually generous with him (much moreso than he is with Pope Francis or Bishop Barron), specifically when I made a point to say that “I do not know the man; he may be a really nice guy in person.” Sometimes a well-placed rebuke or scoff is appropriate between Catholic laymen, depending on the quality of the content one is approaching (which in this particular instance, on Marshall’s side, was very dirty and disingenuous).
I don’t think it’s a violation of charity to refer to people metaphorically as foot soldiers. We’re not the first podcasters to receive a swarm of them in our comments box, and we won’t be the last. Had I not muted the comments on that video, you would have been able to see just how nasty this subset of super duper “righteous” Catholics could get. Quite disturbing.
I agree. I'm not a follower of Taylor Marshall and know very little about him, but in that video I found the lack of charity undermining whatever legitimate argument you might have. You make it worse by criticizing your critics, and removed the opportunity for open debate by turning off your comments.
Bishop Barron's focus on the "Beauty" of the Church, (teaching, writing, architecture, music, etc.) as in in the Catholicism Series, PIvotal Players and many of his tools, invoke piety, reverence, and awe. In the filming and editing of these series, many many people are captured in a state of piety. Those are the films clips for me that are most memorable - international, beautiful, humble people deep in prayer .
P.S. Love that I found your channel. Very balanced and thorough. I have the same frustration when jt comes to the Father Martins AND the Taylor Marshalls.
Agree with a lot. The only thing I would add is this - the piety in the Novus Ordo that I have seen in Poland is astounding. Having experienced that, I agree that it's absolutely not about TLM vs NO.
I love that people can honestly say how much they love Word on Fire, and MEAN it, whilst pointing out a few flaws. Word on Fire has changed my life. It's ignited the Catholic faith in my heart. But to say that, doesn't mean I agree with EVERYTHING that's ever come out of WOF, but I would stop way short of ever saying I don't love it.
So often when people say, I love 'Word on Fire, but.....' then there is often some massive, condescending, awful remark coming. It's like they don't really love it, they just feel compelled to soften the blow.
But I don't get that from you guys. I feel genuine love for Bishop Barron and his ministry coming out of you guy, but with a few charitable comments for further reflection that you feel is necessary. I think this is the right balance.
Much love boys.
If we had a closer Byzantine Catholic parish it would be a pretty easy choice to switch rites, and we even have good and reverent priests saying the N.O. where we live. Fortunate that they don't have balloons and banners, it's just hard to get away from the silly '60s hymns that change every Sunday so nobody knows how the song actually goes. Divine liturgy is otherworldly. Miss it from being Orthodox for sure.
You should invite him on your show. It would be a great discussion.
Lol would love to, but I think our show is a little too small to earn a slot on his schedule.
Watch this space....I think you boys are perfect to see in big discussions! I think it's cool that it will come about organically through people getting refreshed like from a little spring on your channel and genuinly spreading the word! There's LOTS of people that you are hitting hard with how you think, explain & even sometimes have role eyes with the guys like TM. He drives me so mad I quit watching..lol..my eyes were rolling around the back of my neck before finding their sockets again lol. Hollow old hoo haa like 'infiltration, ancient alien' stuff is as satisfying as an empty burger :) Well done guys, and a very Happy Easter ☘
Awesome video. Brilliant.
As a convert from evangelical protestantism and never having been to a TLM mass my feeling about the novis ordo is generally positive except that I dont feel sufficient reverence is given to the eucharist. I don't feel comfortable with lay eucharistic ministers who often fail to say "the body of christ" and who in my opinion are not in persona christi and therefore should not be distributing the eucharist. But, I dont mind the Glory and Praise, I think it is beautiful and i have been part of music ministry in my parish singing those songs with real empathy. Having been Born Again and profoundly touched by God as a protestant I feel that many Catholics fail to convert in that way and that I am unusual in my personal relationship with Christ. Also when I see One for Israel ministries and their conversion stories I see they are not converted by liturgy but by prayer of the heart and sincere reception of the message of Christ. I have seen sincere humble prostration of the body in protestant evangelical services. I think what is missing is not so much liturgy of prostration though eucharistic liturgy should be better, but the message of Christ so profoundly spoken as to lead to the prostration of the body with sincerity. Basically what I'm saying is that having prostration writen into the liturgy is no guarantee of conversion but having the gospel message clearly expounded repeatedly is. Being converted or Born Again will make us prostrate ourselves as the Jewish converts and many protestants do.
You would enjoy the episode we did on The Cordial Catholic’s channel if you haven’t seen it yet.
Go to our playlists, tap “interviews,” and give that one a listen. We talk quite a bit about the crisis of conversion in the Catholic Church and many of the virtues (and vices) of Protestantism which we can learn quite a bit from.
Don't turn comments off. We should never be afraid of debate.
If debate was what was happening, the comments would have been left on.
Love Word on Fire. Great discussion.
22:38 nail on the head. Though I would argue along the lines of Veterum Sapientia for the importance of the traditional languages with a little more force. Great channel guys. God bless you and keep you and save souls through your work.
I find YOUR apostolate, The Catholic Brothers, surer and more solidly based than most things Barron. I say that sincerely.
Just subscribed after finding your channel by accident. Excellent discussion. The fading of authentic Catholic piety is enough to make one weep, and this came from the liberal influence in, and on, the Church. The worst thing, I think, to befall Bishop Barron was his elevation to Bishop. It has put upon him, in the current climate, constraints which make it very difficult for him to speak openly about the Liturgy and the disintegration of a Catholic piety.
So good
You just gained a subscriber. Good stuff.
Kind words, friend! Thanks for hopping aboard 👍🏻😏
Great video, you guys should get EMJ for a show
Thank you
Very true, the source of the apostolate is the Eucharistic liturgy, you can't give what you don't have. The apostolate or evangelisation is an extension of one's friendship with Jesus to others. St Jose Maria agrees with you. You can't be a good apostle if your heart is not full of Jesus, impossible.
There's no point in arguing with fellow Catholics about Novus Ordo vs. TLM because at this point each priest and layperson is on his own to find salvation (meaning, you can't trust your average priest/parish to steer you in the proper direction as in previous generations). Personally, even though the NO can be done reverently, I find it to be weak and feminine compared to the VO. There's a great book adjacent to this topic written by Leon J. Podles entitled "The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity".
Thanks for the feedback! I tend to agree with you on the femininity piece, but would add that its a specific *type* of femininity that the NO typically carries, and it is a brand of femininity that is foreign to historic/traditional feminine piety. Even as a piece of mysticism, it sort of fails to rise to the occasion. In my ideal world, we would have the Latin Mass and a one-to-one English translation of it, flourishing side by side... But, we got the NO instead.... So, we’ll have to find ways to infuse it with a proper piety (as a starting point) and perhaps get a couple of the (bizarre) Eucharistic canons that it presents as “options” dropped ! :)
Thanks for the comment and for tuning in!
-Steven
I actually told our pastor (that is, mine and these guys' pastor) about The Church Impotent. He too criticizes what he calls the "feminization" of the liturgy. While Podles believes the factors that drive men from the Church actually go much further back than Vatican II (and in fact has some positive things to say about VII ressourcement in its at least attempting to recover elements from an early Church that was more masculine in Her orientation), I think it would be interesting if the Catholic Brothers and/or the parish men's group consider reading The Church Impotent and discussing it. It's available free online.
You guys are great!
So I was confused by “more traditional Catholics than Anglicans” can you expand on that? It’s blowing my mind.
Can you cite the time stamp of what you’re referring to? I’m not sure what you mean..
About 3:35, let me know if I am misunderstanding this.
@@TheCatholicBrothers Have you had a chance to look at this?
@@Neb-ie5mj hey sorry about that. Here’s a couple of starting points for context to that statement.
amp.smh.com.au/world/more-catholics-than-anglicans-in-britain-20071224-gdrubt.html
www.catholicworldreport.com/2020/07/14/is-a-re-catholicization-of-britain-underway/
In a country where Catholics are a minority in terms of broad, raw head count, the total head count for weekly church attendance (a general litmus test for distinguishing ‘traditional’ vs ‘nominal’ Christians) shows that there are more Catholic butts in pews each week than Anglican ones. 861,000 Catholics go to Mass each week vs 852,000 Anglicans… There are only about 5 million Catholics in Britain, compared to 13.4 million Anglicans… So, the fact that Catholics lead in church attendance by that margin is incredible.
I love Bishop Barron. The proof is in the fruits. Check out the video topics on Barron’s channel vs. Taylor Marshall’s channel. One discusses the Real Presence at length, the other attacks individuals in the Church.
I agree. Barron may have a few blunders that really bother me (the Shapiro interview; the Rubin interview; and his general approach to liturgics) but some blunders in the record are not enough to sully an entire career of catechizing Catholics and evangelizing the unchurched.
@@TheCatholicBrothers I’m a revert to the faith. Came back in 2010. I’ve been reading Catholic books ever since, trying to explore the intellectual and spiritual classics. What study approach (specific books, order, etc) do you guys recommend I pursue? I l’ve read classics like Augustine, Teresa of Avila, and Thomas a Kempis. I’ve read modern commentators like Scott Hahn, Brant Pitre, and apologists from the Catholic Answers crowd. I recently began Lawrence Feingold’s textbook on the Eucharist (I have an intense devotion to the Eucharist and am a strong proponent of adoration. The fruits are immediate. I’ve experienced rapid spiritual growth from it).
After the house is built you don’t then get rid of the foundation.
The NASA sweatshirt makes me doubt how awake you are.
@@TheCatholicBrothers I guess you missed the point. Oh well. Let's just put it this way: Galileo was wrong; the Church was right. Also, the moon landing is a fake. The moon is a light, as Genesis records.
Bishop Barron has public views which which are highly questionable. Hell being empty jumps out among others I wouldn’t describe them as flubs. He’s put a lot of thought into that topic and has numerous writings publicly disseminated justifying his view. He’s silent on many public figures receiving the Eucharist. He’s silent like so many other Bishops on many topics.
Bishop Barron May have influenced both of you in a good way. But I tend to think that many of the people and groups you would describe as ‘rad trads’ are behind the resurgence that is occurring within the church on the traditional side. Timothy Gordon. The remnant. Restore the faith. Return to tradition. Taylor Marshall. Church Militant. Life site news. Crisis magazine. 1 Peter 5. Not Bishop Barron. When I speak with any other Catholics these are the people and groups mentioned.
Clarity and Order are what is offered by tradition. And it is sorely lacking in the Church today. Especially by the bishops.
And Taylor Marshall in particular has re-introduced to many of us practices most of us devoid of a Catholic life have ever even heard of.
Not devoid because of our will. But because of our ignorance. Devoid because the clergy for the most part doesn’t speak of them.
Lacking guidance and in a sea of parishioners mostly as clueless as we are. People like Taylor Marshall are actually very helpful. As are many of the ‘rad trads.’
I have been listening to both (Marshall and Barron) and have multiple books by Bishop Barron. I agree that clarity and order are offered by tradition. We do not need lukewarm Christians (especially among clergy). At this moment in history we need to be hot or cold. Otherwise, we are losing our identity. So I choose to listen to Taylor Marshall, Church Militant, etc and many other sites that are accessible to people who speak Polish.
Yes!
Interesting listening to both of you as I do to many. “ I don’t care about”. Is not a factual statement. It does not lead to truth.
What?
Word on Fire is what the ruling class Catholics would like faithful to like, but the faithful just aren't that into it. It is aesthetic bobo Catholicism with almost no solid food in it. This is a pretentious, air-filled endorsement of a pretentious, air-filled ministry.
Plenty of pretentious air to go around, it seems.
Thanks for the comment.
Bull shit!
Venerable Fulton Sheen had "a calling"
Barron has "a career"
#FACT!
FROM DUBLIN IRELAND 🇮🇪☘✝️⛪🕊🇻🇦
😳
@@TheCatholicBrothers I don't know what you are surprised for. The Irish are not only well known for producing Saints, Keeping The Faith, and, Fighting For The Faith, we're also well known for Defending Our Country.
I'm dying to see that "heretic" Barron in Ireland again, I'll drop kick it so hard that it'll take several operations to place it's balls back in order.
"Thanks be to God for The Holy Sacrament Of Confession"....
I love being an Irish 58 year old cradle Catholic
You do know that Barron's nickname in Trad circles is "Pants on Fire", don't you?
Yes, and that is quite unbecoming of traditional Catholics to insult his work like that (until those traditional Catholics can produce a ministry that is as effective in bringing people into the Church and making them grow in charity).
@@TheCatholicBrothers trads brought me to the faith. Liberal catholicism disgusts me.
Sounds like modern Catholic theology . I’m not a fan of soft mellow Catholicism. Pope John Paul was definitely was not of that camp.
He was orthodox and traditional.
Eh, orthodox, yes. traditional? He was and he wasn’t. He was the start of changing (?) church teaching surrounding the death penalty, sex scandals permeated, liturgical abuses flourished, liberal clerics were promoted and elevated, and there was some pretty overstated ecumenism and religious syncretism efforts, etc etc.
The man was a saint, but his pontificate wasn’t perfect, and we shouldn’t idealize those years too much. Many problems we see under Francis were inaugurated under PJP.
@@TheCatholicBrothers
I’m think I’m a traditional Catholic. My mother brought me up with traditional Catholic teaching and Values, but by all means I’m not perfect, far far from it.
We have to remember after the attempted assassination on PJP, which The Bless Mother saved him from death, his physical health and strength started to deteriorate and never fully recovered. That event had an impact on his papacy.
If I may say , I don’t think Bishop Baron is a bastion of orthodoxy.
Too many of our Bishops teach a fluff gospel.
Too many don’t speak about trad marriage, abortion, lgbt, and the very possibility of many many souls ending up in hell.
God Bless you
Traditionalists did nothing wrong
I really like you guys and your take on things, but you haven't mentioned that everything Bp Barron produces seems to have a price tag on it. And its usually expensive. Buy my new book! Buy my new boxed DVD set! Buy Bp Barron's new edition of The Bible! (Sorry, man. I have at least seven different editions of the Bible already. I don't think the world needs another one). He isn't called BOTI (bishop of the internet) for nothing. To me, Barron is just a Catholic version of Joel Osteen.
It's totally incongruous for Barron to cash in on the portrayal of Catholic tradition in his documentary, then start bashing the "rad-trads" because it pleases the current Vatican administration. Anything for a buck.
Yea I see what you’re saying on that last piece- it was weird when he started blasting traditionalists and lumping them in with the Church Militant types, as if they were one mold. But, in terms of him charging for everything, I’m positive that he takes none of that money into his personal pocket. WOF is now a sizable operation with many (really great) employees who need to be paid and given benefits. In today’s climate, that gets expensive and it’s responsible to compensate employees well. Joel Osteen, on the other hand, is purely an entrepreneur pocketing the cash.. Protestant ministers work for themselves, while Catholic ministers work for the Church and their stipends are regulated.
I think it worth noting as well that Barron was specifically asked by his bishop in Chicago to do what he is doing now (Cardinal George). Otherwise, Barron would have still been a professor at the seminary out here.
I’ve never detected a hint of vainglory in Barron, personally, and my priest (who studied under him) has nothing but good things to say about him. When Barron stays in his lane of philosophy, evangelization, and Thomist apologetics, he’s fantastic. It’s only when he steps into the liturgy wars arena that his content is very disappointing.
Thanks for the comment!
I had a lot of respect for Cardinal George. But I don't know if he'd be pleased with his successor Blase Cupich. I don't think George's prediction that his successor would "die in prison or suffer martyrdom" will come true. So Barron's mandate may have come from Cardinal George, but he lives in California now (closer to Oprah and Meghan & Harry, I believe) and has gone all Hollywood. He can barely be bothered with the hoi polloi on the ground of his own parish. He had to be called out loudly by the laity to even say a rosary after the Serra statues were vandalized. I think Barron is enthralled by the smells, bells, and external trappings of our Roman Catholic Church. But I don't expect to hear him debate James Martin anytime soon. Nor have I ever heard of Barron praying outside of an abortion clinic with the rest of us poor slobs trying to live our faith.
Meanwhile, his superiors in California, Archbishops Cordelione and Gomez are writing genuinely important op-eds in the WSJ and NYT. I wonder what would happen to Word on Fire if Barron followed suit?
@@alamedavigilante yea I think there’s some valid criticisms there. Sometimes I wonder if it’s just not in Barron’s nature to “fight.” I think, by nature, he is inclined toward academia and evangelism. So, he is fulfilling a niche that I think is helpful for the broader culture to engage with the church in a non-combative way, while other bishops have a charism that makes them fighters and ripe for the arena. This is my personal view of what Barron is about. What do you think about that?
I see Barron's latest post is his outrage about the State treatment of St. Junipero Serra. (The Truth About Junipero Serra). Good for him! I just challenged him in a comment to post a petition we can sign to send to Governor Newsom. A few hundred thousand signatures would have more of an effect than a few individual complaints. Let's see if the good bishop will accept the challenge to mobilize his followers. I'll sign it.
How about forget him?
And forget you.
Sounds good, Melinda!
Just saw your video "Forgetting Taylor Marshall" (which has the comments off, so I decided to post my comment here) I thought you had very good points but talk about humility. Your obligation towards Christ become fogged by your lack of humility and constant giggling (reminds me of Kamala) and no Intellectual Generosity ...to quote you guys
Comments were turned off due to vulgarities being posted by Marshall’s foot soldiers, and we don’t want the comments section in our videos to become a stumbling block for potential seekers of Catholicism.
Sorry you didn’t enjoy the episode. We try to keep content deep but the delivery light hearted so that people do not feel that the channel is ‘stiff.’
I believe we were intellectually generous with him (much moreso than he is with Pope Francis or Bishop Barron), specifically when I made a point to say that “I do not know the man; he may be a really nice guy in person.” Sometimes a well-placed rebuke or scoff is appropriate between Catholic laymen, depending on the quality of the content one is approaching (which in this particular instance, on Marshall’s side, was very dirty and disingenuous).
@@TheCatholicBrothers "foot soldiers" isn't a particularly charitable characterization. The first stone be cast.
I don’t think it’s a violation of charity to refer to people metaphorically as foot soldiers. We’re not the first podcasters to receive a swarm of them in our comments box, and we won’t be the last. Had I not muted the comments on that video, you would have been able to see just how nasty this subset of super duper “righteous” Catholics could get. Quite disturbing.
I agree. I'm not a follower of Taylor Marshall and know very little about him, but in that video I found the lack of charity undermining whatever legitimate argument you might have. You make it worse by criticizing your critics, and removed the opportunity for open debate by turning off your comments.
Thank you.