ITB, Summing, & Console Mixing
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
- In this video I take the basic rhythm tracks of a song Drums, Bass, & Guitars and mix them through my api summing mixer with only plug ins, In the box with only plug ins, and then I mix the same tracks with only outboard gear on my console. Its interesting to hear the differences between the 3 mixing techniques. Let me know what you think about the 3.
Thanks for watching!
Steve
Api Summing Drum Mix 8:05
In The Box Drum Mix 17:22
Mci Console Drum Mix 28:24
Steve Looneytunes from GS here buddy
Antoine Versace
Ahhh, Glad you made it!
Thanks
@@RiotHomeRecording console sounded best, then api then ITB.
The internet has no place for thorough, well-informed, humbly presented videos like these. Take your experience and lack of prejudice elsewhere!
Simply one of the best audio recording content. Thank you for taking the time and posting.
Thanks Omar, I appreciate you, please subscribe for future videos I’ll be putting up.
i think this puts an end to the question of ITB vs analog summing! The ITB mix had nowhere near the stereo width or lively presence of the other two. Great vid, thanks man!!!!
You and I hear a like. I didn’t want to keep pointing things like that out as I prefer people decide for themselves but I think anyone with a decent set of ears that knows how to listen, it becomes very apparent.
Thanks
Steve
Also if you consider that I never changed the reverb at all. I used the same reverb plug-in set the exact same way for all three mixes. You could hear reverb tails as well as the depth in the reverb on some mixes much more then others.
Hi Steve. Man, you just keep hitting it out of the park every time! Your content is awesome. Thank you for sharing all of this.
Thanks Obsidian! Thanks for watching and being a positive supporter going back for a long while now.
the mci mix is amazing. Real music.
Thanks I’m happy with it.
I Like The Api Summing Mix Best Of Alll Good Job My Son
Thanks I like it too,
I’m having another piece put together right now that’s going to add 4 more 325 booster cards to my api summing mixer setup so it will have a total of 10, 325 booster amps 20 transformers 10 opamps.
Wow! What a difference that console makes. Honestly it is a no brainer if you have access to a console of any type and it is decent quality. Recording everything into DAW so you can recall sessions and then pump it back through the console and print it. I think this is what most pro studios do now anyway. A bit of outboard gear that they know the settings to so they can recall a session quick and off they go.
This is some of the best summing I have heard on line...
Really well done. Thanks, Steve!
API with the recall for me good videos and content!!
Thanks Julio!
Yes the api mixer has that smooth but punchyness to it. I did these mixes fast to print them for the video. I can tell with a little more eq tweaking and level adjustments the api mix would be really good.
Thanks
Steve
thanks for you time!!! Amazing content.
Thanks Santiago! Subscribe to see upcoming videos I will be posting soon.
Thanks again
Steve
I really enjoyed this. I'm an old head and preferred the console over all however could jive with the analog summing because although a tad bit darker it can be adjusted with eq if desired. The ITB was soft as baby poop sonically. The irony is many of the ITB adherents will spend hundreds or thousands of dollars buying analog emulation plugins incessantly chasing the plugins arms race and companies are more than happy to oblige.
Assuming that all three mixes at the end were level matched the MCI console mix is unmistakenly beefy and warm. It's always great to watch you work, I'm gonna review this again and take notes. As always, thanks for sharing.
Malcolm Palm
I always appreciate your input Malcolm!
It’s certainly not scientifically matched but close, enough to hear the differences anyway.
You could lower the api or mci mix 5 db lower than the ITB mix and still hear the stereo image spread out much further left and right then the ITB mix. Also the reverb tails are much more apparent on the api & mci mixes. It’s very noticeable with headphones I haven’t heard it on speakers just on my phone with EarPods so far.
The api and ITB mix has the exact same fader volumes & plug-in settings. The only thing I did was assigned all the tracks from the api summing mix outputs to print the ITB mix with a master fader as needed.
However both the api & mci mixers have amplified stages in them so that will add or take away gain depending on the master fader position on the api and all fader positions including the master fader on the mci. Just the same as inserting plug ins add gain.
The api and mci mix both have hardware MixBus compression & eq.
To make up for this on the ITB mix I used the Cleariphonic Eq and Ozone maximizer plug ins in place of the hardware mixbus chain to make it a fully ITB mix around the same level.
The console mix I used outboard gear without plug ins with the exception of the same reverb plug in as mentioned that was set exactly the same for all 3 mixes and no settings were touched.
Listen to the reverb tails on all three mixes I’m interested in hearing your feedback.
Thanks again Malcolm!
@@RiotHomeRecording Where along the timeline of this vid would I be able to hear the different reverb tails? I tried to scroll through it but couldn't find any hard stops. Running the audio files through all the hardware definitely makes a big difference in the sound that is difficult, but not impossible to reproduce In The Box. Neither of us is Andrew Scheps. The carefully selected signal chain of outboard pieces that you used demonstrates that. The fact that it comes through clear as day over the internet through UA-cam makes me wonder how much better it would sound sitting in front of your MCI console. Did you make the API 2 channel line amp yourself? Looks pretty cool.
Malcolm Palm
If you go to the 33:42 second in the videos and listen to the the difference in the 3 mixes is pretty noticeable. I hear the glueing effect, size difference, and just overall creamyness. The tracks have more separation yet retain a cohesive sound. All the custom api pieces I designed, collected all the components and had made to the exact specifications that I wanted for my personal needs. I did not do all the work myself I had help especially with the metal work and framing.
@@RiotHomeRecording Yes, the difference is very noticeable, more so with MCI console mix. Definitely a glueing effect and a nice growl too. I like the coloration that board puts out.
Malcolm Palm
It can be too colored for certain mixes that shouldn’t have as much weight.
I like the console sound. I have the Harrison 950mx as well as an RNC and TC 2000 as outboard. Still, I notice a huge difference in a console mix vs ITB just running through the transformers. Great video!!
I’ve always wanted to hear the Harrison. They look like they’re built really good.
@@RiotHomeRecording very solid indeed. I have a hybrid setup, using it for summing and some tracking. 4 mono channels and 8 stereo. Mine is loaded with the tone shaping eq (bass,mid, treble) with more surgical eq reserved for ITB. Comes with buss compression but with a fixed really short attack, variable release. For certain things I can get away with entirely mixed analogue using the Harrison and my little RNC and Tc M2000. facebook.com/1952531928133073/photos/a.1952547931464806/3976275555758690/?type=3
Pretty much exactly what i found out, analog stuff gives it more Dimension, you could call it stereo widening while keeping the correlation intact. Plus it fills out the spectrum with harmonics what makes it Sound more full to me, other people would say "sounds like a record". Lets crack our bankaccounts guys its time to buy some stuff
In my opinion, the console wins. Thank you so much for this video.
Great job.
Thanks Joao, the console does have a full sound that’s for sure.
woooooow it sounds KIller man super astonished
Thank you!
Thanks for sharing i also have a hard time getting what i want itb. I also use a summing mixer.
Thanks,
You can get great OTB mixes I just get there faster with a mixer. IMO
Just listened to this on my I-Pad Mini. Even there the difference is huge. The ITB Mix is missing, what I like in the Summing-Mix, but the Console-Mix is by far the most appealing. Great comparison.
Awesome. Killer content!!!!
Thanks!
Hi Steve, quick listen and I like the top end for this kind of music on the MCI. The MCI also lends girth to the sound.
Yes I do have too, I think it has to do with the amount of transformers the way the audio is pushed into them affects the top end with a pleasant saturation.
GREAT looking shorts man!!! just kiddin...no I learned a lot from your gear tour. I am just starting out with also an MCI JH-24 ( yes they are the best of the best to keep from the old days) and now I am considering an option for a dream console>>> the JH-636 ! wow, 36 channels and then some with more headroom than you could possibly want. and keeping it all as analog as possible, up until the mac ofcourse . I am planning on studying your explain videos about summing and mixing in general quite some more times, and hopefully can record others or myself soon! just wanted to thank you for all the strong work you did here. Keep em coming! cheers
I have never stopped using consoles since I started in the 70's.. I will never mix without a console .. over the years I found some great deals on consoles..I now own a TOA RX-7 32 ch console with transformers in and out and tons of headroom. It sounds great,huge bottom end and really open top end .
Love the MCI vibe!
Me too thanks!
Another BIG video. Thanks for that. I never mix ITB. Even my experience with plugins is not really good. I use, only as a reference, Acustica Audio plugins(mostly).I think even cheap hardware like Klark teknik sound better than any plugin....But from some time ago I´m eqing and compressing each track out of the box(prism sound converters, waiting for a crane sound...) using Logic Pro I/O plugins. And after that I mix the buses OTB (with Orion, Calrec or Neve). So I'm sure these extra AD/DA conversion can ...damage, maybe the sound. I mean, I can not listen ante damage, but It's an extra conversion... But I prefer this system better than using plugins. Really, to me plugins(as you can imagine I tried different brands) change the original sound in a bad way...maybe I´ts only my ear.... So please Steve, did you tried something like this think I'm doing ,doing eq and compressing each track out of the box avoiding plugins? I'm very interested in your opinion about that. Thank you. Have a wonderful day
Thanks Javier, yes I mainly mix on my console and sometimes my api summing mixer. I’m always using outboard gear. However, I do use plug ins as well. So I basically do hybrid mixing. I prefer the sound of a good Mixbuss. It’s inspiring to me and makes it not only easier but a lot more fun.
I have videos up where I demonstrate different ways that I mix.
Here’s a link to a video where I don’t use the computer at all only the console and some outboard gear. You can hear the final result at the end of the video.
ua-cam.com/video/Sqz5YaHx26g/v-deo.html
Thanks
Steve
@@RiotHomeRecording Thanks for your fast response Steve. because
The fact that multiple converters are used to push the mix through insted of just two is the main reason ITB doesn't touch a summed or analog mix in dynamics, image width and clarity.......I'm doing this with a simple small soundcraft mixer with nice results.When those bigtime producers all say they mix exclusively in the box, at least they go summing with the best converters.
The converters used in this video for all 3 examples is my Burl Mothership. Which are considered some of the best converters available.
I believe many of the pros that claim they’re mixing 100% ITB are Mixing 100 ITB. However it’s a lot easier to get a great ITB mix when you are working with a great band, in a great room, with great instruments that are studio ready, going through great microphones and great preamps.
Now on top of that, many top engineers are building in the sound. Meaning running the tracks through multiple compressors & eq’s then reprinting these tracks In the DAW. So the final mix can easily be done ITB yet retain the desired analog sound. Plus they are pros that know what they’re doing. They’ve mixed analog for years and know how it should sound so it’s easier for them to achieve that sound based off their experience.
If I recorded all of my mixed tracks through my outboard gear then printed them back into my DAW. I could easily mix ITB with 100% recall and just add whatever plug ins here and there to sweeten it up.
Ever notice most these pros that claim they mix 100% ITB have racks full of outboard around them? Yes, that’s because they’re building the sound into the mix. Then claiming they mixed it 100% ITB which is true.
Yet at the same time they’re trying to sell their signature plug in bundle.
Depending on the style of music you could mix ITB with all plug ins. I mainly to Rock n Roll, Punk, and indie bands. In my experience and opinion. Nothing beats a great sounding Mixbuss and this is achieved with a great mixer loaded with transformers.
If you watch Warren Huarts video with JJP in JJP’s personal studio he explains it’s perfectly. Simply put Nothing Beats a Great Sounding Mixbuss.
I have done mixes where I used only my console faders at zero and only plug ins. No outboard for easy recall. And it’s sounds great full and Dimensional.
I mixed ITB and spread the tracks out to each channel of my console. Essentially using it as a big summing mixer. So every track that goes to a channel on my console is going through multiple large vintage iron transformers X 28 channels, all 28 channels summed down to my master channels hitting more Output transformers & Discrete Class A Opamps.
At this point I can hit the master section harder for more of a creamy color or lighter depending on the sound I’m going for.
I do agree with you that summing can make a difference but it depends on the actual mixer and how it’s made. And good converters definitely make a great difference!
Thanks
Steve
@@RiotHomeRecording of course, the "front end"(engineering skills, room, etc....) is not to be dismissed and can make these things relative.
cheers .
Wow, the console sounded best. The way I can describe it is: There aren't any sonic holes or empty spaces throughout the sound spectrum. It's filled in a pleasant way. The API and the ITB mix have obvious sonic holes or empty spaces that aren't being filled. Cross Talk?
Yes the console has a fuller more dimensional sound compared to the summing mixer and ITB Mix.
COOL ! Analog-BEST !!!
Analog Forever!!!
Mci sounds great!
I listened your three settings and results are below.
Api Summing Drum Mix 8:05
(more dark and fat results and good low end )
In The Box Drum Mix 17:22
( loss of ton and character of instruments and less low end .weaker instruments )
Mci Console Drum Mix 28:24 (best results.great ,punchy,airy and snappy instruments.This is my favourite )
I appreciate you taking the time to listen to the mix options and agree with your assessment. There’s no doubt the console has a size, dimension and fullness that is very musical.
However, there is something I really like about the api mixer. It’s snappy with top end sheen. As you said it is dark as well.
of course the board is the best. there did seem to be some strange stuff going on with the guitar effects though; some kind of chorus detune thingy! great video!!
Love your studio, approach to recording, mixing and videos man. I am a very strong proponent of summing and analog gear. I have a very similar mix bus: Burl Vancouver Summing Mixer - Audioscape SSL Mix Bus comp - Elysia X-Filter - printing with the Burl B2 Bomber.
Did you build your API summing mixer yourself and what type of line amps are those? Keep posting, your setup rules!!!!
Yea that’s a sweet set up you have, my api summing amp I designed it to exactly how I wanted it, I did not build the whole thing myself I had a lot of help from a tech. I have built other summing mixers all by myself but this one I wanted dead perfect. It’s loaded with 325 booster amps, completelyTransformer Balanced I/O. It’s sweet.
I have more videos that I will be posting soon. I shot out the AudioScape EQP-A with an original Pultec from the 50’s. I also shot out the AudioScape 76F with a pair of original 1176 F Revs.
Steve Antoniazzi sick, I can’t wait to see those videos. I really like audioscape’s gear. I’m sure the shootouts will be interesting. I was looking on the vintage king site the other day and a vintage pultec is going for around 6k, so I’m hoping the Audioscape version can hold its own. I would be really surprised if it didn’t. Again love your content man, it’s exactly the type of stuff I’m into. I love analog gear and their aren’t enough channels that cover this type of mixing these days.
Brian McLendon
Agreed! I really like the AudioScape gear as well!
ITB Summing 33:42
API Summing mixer 34:21
Analog Console Summing 35:00
Thanks!
@@RiotHomeRecording Hey my analog mixer's Pan Knobs don't seem to work, the sound just stays center. The PFL's are not engaged. Any idea's what could be causing this?
@@380stroker
Does your master section allow you to Mono the mix? Make sure that’s not what’s happening. I doubt all your pan pots failed it could be what your monitoring through.
@@RiotHomeRecording I'll check. Thanks.
Thanks for making this nice short and easy.. The channel owner should have done this!
I have a few songs I mixed in the box I am pretty happy with. It would be great to have some actual good gear like you to see what I could do with our music. Check out on any of the streaming sites.
Band is Deep Fried and songs, Just Enough, American Politics, Road of Bones and Love is Dead. Let me know what you think.
Hello, seems like there s a difference in the mix itself regarding the itb version. As if guitars parts weren't panned same as in the 2 analog versions
But thanks for video
Hello Dany,
Yes they were panned exactly the same on all 3 versions of the mix, nothing was touched on the ITB vs the Summing mixer or console. Only the outputs were changed to route to each final Mixbuss.
You can see in the video how it was panned because I bounced each take in real time on the video with the screen being captured the panning is exactly the same for each print.
The difference you might be hearing is how far left & right the console sounds compared to the other mix. That and the depth gives another dimension that is apparently wider left to right and deeper front to back.
I was sent here from a Brute ii thread and see you no longer use the Inward Connections summing mixer and Brute Limiter! Any reason for ditching those ones for what you have now? Big Brute fan here and very interested in getting a Brute ii as my limiter after a Dangerous 2 Bus + into an SSL Fusion. Any advice would be great appreciated :)
Thanks Matt,
My main reason is the only reason. The sound. It’s immediate straight from the go when put audio/tracks through my console it sounds how it should sound, like music. So that’s why I went this route. Inward Connections is by far one of my favorite gear of choice. I still have pieces of Steve Firlottes gear that I use all the time. It’s built better then any other gear being currently made that I’ve seen and used. From the thick gauge steel he uses for his chaises to the electrical components mr Firlotte does it right. It’s pricey because you get what you pay for. It’s a shame inward connections stopped making products. He should of stayed how he was and not let people that don’t even know about circuitry put their name in his equipment. IMO.
Hi Steve awesome video thanks! I’m coming from the gearlutz threads, I like too having a lot of op amp and transformers especially API 2503 transformers and op 2520. I like that sound, I’m producing electronic pop music.I will have soon a new console with empty 500 slots, do you have in mind any 500 modules including API or API style op/transformer that could add some nice weight to the summing of my console ? Was thinking buying 550a or 550b API Eq (or CApi? )
And do you think processing stems into 500 preamp modules with transformers is a good idea or should I only go with EQ/Comp 500 modules with transformers ? Thank a lot :)
Thanks,
You should consider an api 2500 comp it adds what your looking for especially on electronic pop. As you can hear in this video the more I add the more dimensional the sound gets. So I would say your best bet is to soup up your 500 series slots on your board with some cool transformer balanced eq’s like the 550a’s and yes you can always pad down a pair of preamps and run the stereo mix through them for more color. You’ll have to play with the gain stages that best suits the sound you want but you will get there it sounds like you have the right idea.
Steve
@@RiotHomeRecording Thanks Steve for your noce advises, I've already the 2500 that I use for Mastering, amazing gear! I will follow that road for EQ & Pre 500 :) !
@@RiotHomeRecording Hi Steve hope you're fine, do you know if 550a & 550b have both 2503 transformer inside (as the stereo eq 5500) ? And do you think it's better having more 550a than 550b ? Hard for me to listen to them. Api also released 312preamp with 2503 transformer, could it be nice to insert it on my stereo master bus on the console ? or using the api 2500 on the chain will be already enough (not sure it has 2503 onboard) ? I'll be glad to have your opinion, many thanks :)
Sound4Label
Yes both the 550A and the 550B have 2503 output transformers and so does the api 2500. The 550B is a 4 band eq and the 550A is a 3 band eq. They sound pretty much identical unless you go for the Handwired 550A that definitely has more color but more money. I have the handwired 550A eq’s. They are really good. If you have the Api 2500 inserted on the MixBus you wouldn’t need to insert a pair of preamps.
Steve
@@RiotHomeRecording Hello Steve, thanks for you great advises, how to make difference between the handwired or not version of the 550api ? I would like to make a gap between plugins and so use musical EQ, the 550a seems to be nice for that :) Great to know that I don't need to spend money on Api pre ;) Ben
Thanks for this video. I found your youtube channel 2 days ago and you've done great work! Kudos! Please make more videos.
Any chance to share more details about the API summing box? Design details, schematics, etc. I'm looking for something similar and really liked the sound.
The MCI looks great and sounds amazing. How did end up with it and not something from API, since you were already familiar with that sound?
Thanks again!
Thanks Takis,
I purchased the mci 428 because I mixed on one a quite a bit and always liked the result. It just sounded Big, Wide, & Dimensional. The one I purchased came from a studio that did all the Rock Records I grew up listening to so it was an easy choice for me. I did have to refurbish the entire console which took me a year. Replacing every capacitor and fixing a few things. Now it’s solid.
I designed my summing mixer to be 16 channels with a mixbuss inserts. Channels 1-4 are mono and 5-16 stereo Left & Right. Its Fully Balanced with Every Input and output passing through a series of transformers. It’s loaded vintage transformers and api 325 booster amps. I don’t have what I drew up anymore as I had that built years ago. I have another stereo unit with vintage Api line amps & Preamps that I designed to run a mix through or record through. I’m using it in this video to run the Drums through then dumping it into the api mixer.
Currently I plan on making another summing mixer that can work stand alone or with the other 2 units for more complex mix set ups. This is all made with the exact vintage Api Booster amps and Transformers that are in an old Api console. The new ones do not have that sound. I have a stock of old api transformers, opamps, booster cards that I’ve been building up over the years so I figured I should do something with them. So started designing and having these units built.
So basically it’s just a standard summing mixer transformer balanced with api 325 booster amps. Besides that I wanted a fully balanced Mixbuss insert pre master fader that’s going through additional input transformers and 325 booster amps.
Thanks
Steve
@@RiotHomeRecording Thanks for the reply Steve.
Your setups look very interesting with tone for days.
I'm probably going to start with a diy project the next weeks. Probably a DR-1602 kit to wrap my head around a summing mixer and the whole design. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to start something from the scratch by designing it, so a ready circuit and then some trial and error with the components should work for now.
Although there are some interesting pre-build options out there, most of them didn't impress me, especially for the money. I mean the RND5059 sounds great and has the Silk options so you can add "colour" to the mix, but it's really our of my budget. The Heritage builds look interesting but I have heard bad words about their build quality. The Tonelux, which is a very simple design, but is very punchy and clear, unfortunately is not available anymore. Solutions like Dangerous, SPL, etc. didn't impress me at all.
@@takis.c
thanks,
yea I’ve been through a lot of summing mixers and felt very few were what I was looking for. The one I have now is exactly what I wanted but had to design it my self. I’m starting another design now. It’s going to be an auxiliary unit to my main summing mixer that adds 4 Buss/Aux channels that I can use with the main summing unit and stand alone to run a stereo mix through. It will be a simple build with 4 api 325 booster amps. This way I can mix ITB and send my stereo busses/auxiliary tracks through this unit then all the Buss units into my main summing which has the mix bus insert for my master compressor then print the mix off the main outs of my summing unit. This way I will have the benefit of 100% recall and the benefit of my tracks running through 10 separate old api 325 booster amps and over 20 good input & output transformers.
Enjoyed this Steve, Nice work. A friend told me to come listen to your API summing mixer. Sounds great. May I ask who made this?
Thanks Marc I appreciate it, ahh yes the api mixer. I have a bunch of old spare api stuff so I started coming up with ideas and had a few pieces made, the guy that wired it up I haven’t talked to in a couple years but I have no problem passing along his contact info if you want it. I just want to ask his permission first.
Thanks
Steve
This is not a comparison between ITB/OTB mixing, but stages of work leading to your methodology.
Better need to say that people don't need to spend so much money on outboard first
Hey Steve I loe the content keep it coming. I am also interested in the Api Summing, but I didn't quit get how you did it. I would much like to build one myself. Could you tell me what api did you use, and a little of the routing'? Thanks a loot.
Thanks,
I have a lot of old vintage api transformers, Opamps and 325 booster cards. I had them for years so I decided to start building gear I can actually use with them. So I had the stereo channel mic preamp & line amps which is all separate transformers depending on what mode your in. This piece also sums both channels to a mono output for tracking 2 mics to a mono track.
The summing mixer is 16 channels with a stereo mixbus insert. So 18 channels if I’m not using the stereo input. But I usually do as I prefer it. This piece is again loaded api transformers and 325 booster amps. It has XLR & Dsub connections for the main inputs and 1/4 inch for the MixBus insert but it’s all 100% transformer balanced in and out. I use this to sum multiple mics to while tracking as well.
I have more 325 cards and opamps I’m thinking about making a an additional unit that I can Buss more stereo ITB aux groups through then return it to the main summing mixer. Like I did in the video with the drum mix.
So it will be like Bussing through an old api 1604 mixer accept with full recall. The unit will have 8 old 325 booster amps in it. That I can use as 4 stereo or 8 mono busses. I have 16 vintage api 312 preamps that I can use to do the same thing I’d just have to pad them down. But I rather have a dedicated unit so I can track with my 312 preamps and mix/monitor through the api mixer & auxiliary pieces while using Protools for all the routing so there’s 100% recall yet I’m going through approximately 24 325 cards and the input transformers to sweeten up the mix.
All my inputs & outputs are on patch points so that’s how it’s all connected.
Steve
Bad Ass setup Steve Wow Nice!!! Any suggestion on Bus comps that work good for Police style Rock Punk???
Arthur Allsopp
Thanks Arthur!
Yaknow Id hate to recommend something that you’d end up not liking. All this stuff can get expensive as I’m sure you know. I don’t think anyone can go wrong with an Allen Smart C2 it’s what I use on the MixBus 90% of the time for a reason. Even if you’re only mixing into that it just works. It’s always best to try before you buy if possible. It’s an SSL Designed MixBus Comp same thing in their big consoles. Allen smart worked for SSL for many years if I recall correctly and maybe even designed the SSL Buss Comp.
I think the api 2500 is good too but a little heavy handed but the new one has a wet/dry knob on it that will definitely help and should be on all compressors in my opinion.
Thanks again
Steve
@@RiotHomeRecording Back in the mid 90's I had a nice rig with an Otari MTR90 24trk and a Trident console from the early 80's Now I own Apollo interfaces and use an iMac and a few outboard pieces.
@@RiotHomeRecording Im gonna pickup the Warm Bus Comp and try that out its more in my price range. I have been using an FMR RNC and it actually sounds really nice but chokes on heavy bass material.
Arthur Allsopp
Arthur you should consider the Audioscape Buss Comp it’s an ssl clone just like the warm. And I think it’s a only $699 it’s made in the USA.
I have no affiliation with Audioscape other than I purchased a few pieces of their gear. I recommend them over warm audio. I purchased a pair of 1176 comps and a pair of pultec style eq’s from them and I’m very satisfied.
Arthur Allsopp
I owned an Otari MX-70 and a Neotek 24x8 Console a while back.
Update: I checked the ´Guitars Left & Right´ sound with a correlation meter and they are almost mono with the ITB version!
Update, the guitars panning never changed between any of these 3 example. Only the output assignment.
The MCI sounds the most like a finished record, however, I did like the somewhat "playful" sound of the API. I'm a hybrid mixer myself, so I did not like the ITB mix as much. I enjoyed this video! By the way, what converters are you using?
Burl Mothership, thanks and agree with your thoughts on the 3 versions.
@@RiotHomeRecording -- You have great tastes! ha! Keep it coming! Peace!
Why the ´Guitars Left & Right´ are mono in the ITB mix? Of course it´s gonna sound weak when compared to stereo mixes..
They’re not mono they’re hard panned left and right.
Hey Steve. How are you?
Man..I'm amazed by the difference the console makes.
I'm working pretty hard to buy some really good gear and I'm not sure if I should invest in a console or 16 channel 500 series.
My main goal is to have the ability to spread the headroom in a mix like your console example does in this video.
My first thought was to buy 16 good 500 preamps (some API, some SSL and some neve), then 16 compressors and 16 eq. The idea is to start my new studio with 16 top-notch channel strips.
I already got a pair of API channel strip and I just love them. I've mixed some songs going channel by channel with my APIs and they just do the job easily. You get to that "record sound" way quicker and it's really pleasant to work with this kind of gear, it's just pure fun.
But, I don't know anything about electronics like you do and I'm afraid to buy things that won't help me with my goal.
What's your opinion in my case? Should I go for a console? What should I pay attention specs-wise in a console to get this big and wide sound that yours have?
I know that SSL, Neve and API will sound great, but I would like to find a less famous gear but with parallel sound quality and maybe cheaper. Am I dreaming too much?
Once again, man, your vids are really inspiring. Thank you for posting so much knowledge. All the best. Cheers
Sounds like you already have a solid plan, preamps are important after you get your pres and mics sorted out to capture a great sound. You should consider a mixer probably with Transformers, either a console or summing set up. As you probably already know only a few of the hundreds of boards out there that will help you get the sound you’re after. And they are hard to find and expensive. Api consoles are great so are neves, but they cost a ton. I don’t know of any full consoles that are great and cheap otherwise I’d own one hahaha. But they’re are a lot of great summing mixers. That will help you achieve that sound.
I’ve owned a lot of different summing mixers and a few consoles the one I have now I’m very happy with and it gives me instant gratification.
I like my Api summing mixer buts it’s a different world of mixing compared to a console.
@@RiotHomeRecording Thanks for the reply Steve. Yeah, you're getting a really really good sound. I've seen almost all of your videos and I'm impressed how close to that Thin Lizzy sound you get from your stuff. If your goal was to sound vintage, but rich and full sound you got that. Congrats man, this is kinda a science and only the ones involved know how difficult is to get to that sound that is in our head. And the money...OMG..the money just flies. But in the end, we are happy. I'll keep following your vids. All the best my friend. Cheers
@@bncprado
Thanks Bruno, it took me a long time to get to this point. A long time to even figure out what gear is worth having to me and what’s not worth having. I’m constantly trying to get better as well. It’s not just the gear that’s just one part of many.
After all these vids, I am sure the MCI console market will do what the Ferrari marked did. they will be unobtanium shortly , if they arent already
Mci consoles got a bad wrap due to the 600 series that they came out with using chip based design, if they would of stuck with the 400 series & 500 series they could of been as desired like api’s & neves. The 600 series was what they made the most of and their worst sounding console. In the 80’s/90’s lots of engineers used them coming from an api, Neve, or trident studio and heard the difference and gave all of Mci consoles a bad wrap when in reality the 400 & 500 series is the same transformered design as an api console but on 24 volt rails instead of 16 volt so they have more head room.
great vid! for this sound console destroys it!!! sounds awesome but i think for edm or electronic where you might more complicated routing like lot of sidechineing etc would be different so it depends on what you doing any way mci sounds fasntastic!!!!
Thanks I appreciate and agree with your assessment!
How did you get your MCI, that has to be the best looking console I have ever seen. I have a Ramsa WRT820 I modded with OEP Transformers on the Outputs. The transformers made it sound better by far. Your so fortunate. If you ever sell it you should hit me up I will freight it to California even if its on the moon.
Thanks Cory, I bought this console in 2016 it lived it’s entire life in 4th street recording in Santa Monica California. They did 15 gold & platinum records on this board. A bunch of stuff I grew up listening to from the 70’s through the 2000’s. Lots of Rock Records.
When I got it needed a lot of work so I Repaired, Recapped, and refurbished the entire console. Additionally I upgraded the Master & Monitor section. It works and sounds great now. From the first mix I did on this board it had a very familiar sound to me. I’ve owned a few consoles and summing mixers. This series of Mci is easiest to pull great sounds out of.
I have another video up where I go over the entire console inside and out, check it out if you get a chance.
Thanks
Steve
I think the API Summing mix was my least favorite. The ITB and Console mixes were both good in their own ways. Three different mixes of course. Panning is toally different in the ITB mix, I think, it's the most different from the other two.
The panning was Not different at all for the ITB mix. It was the exact same panning for all 3.
Is that a 400 or 500 series MCI?
400 series, it’s a Mci 428 from 1976.
I have lots of videos up here on UA-cam where you can hear it in action.
Hi Steve. Dig your tutorials. Would your API sum mixer be equivalent to running each track (via ext inserts) to API preamps(line in)? I have been running my mixes thru 2 channels of preamp with great results. Would having each track run thru a preamp make a big difference? Thx Pete
Pete Pizzo
Hi Pete,
Yes, the more your tracks get spread out across transformers the more you will get that creamy console sound. This is a huge part of the sound from records made in the 70’s. The audio passing through many many transformer stages.
You can run your tracks into a mic preamp but you’ll have to pad it down. If your preamp has line input as an option you’re all set and ready to go. Now, you don’t have to do every individual track. Try creating an stereo aux send of your drum mix in the box and send the outputs to a pair of line amps, then do the same with guitars, set up an stereo aux send and send them to a pair of line amps, then a vocal mix to another pair. This is essentially recreating the console effect.
You will have multiple gain stages with great transformers and opamps that your mix is passing through.
This is what JJP does in his studio and he’s making mega records. Look up the Warren Huart interview/studio tour with JJP. He’s sending his Protools mix to all sorts of different comps, and line amps.
Thanks
Steve
Steve Antoniazzi I’m using Capi vp28’s. That should do the trick. Did u ever hear of them? People always tell me that they are more like the original API consoles.
Pete Pizzo
Yes I have heard of them the Capi Heider FD-312 was cloned off my actual original api Heider RE-312,. Jeff use to live right by my house I contacted Dave Geren at Cinemag to clone the RE-0887 mic input transformer as I wanted more then the 4 I had at the time. I ended up getting 10 originals and then jeff took over and made a better clone with more features like the line input stage then I would of made.
Steve Antoniazzi it resentfully dawned on me that I don’t have any transformer based microphones. Being a drummer I really care a lot about my drum sound. Do u think this would help me out? Thinking of Mojave. They have Jensen T. What do u think?
Pete Pizzo
As long as you have good microphones that’s what counts, you also have transformers in your mic preamps so there’s transformers in your signal chain. Mic placement is more important to getting a good sound then wether or not the mic is transformered, tubed, etc.
It could help your sound but making sure your phase is correct when mic’ing drums is extremely important to a great drum sound. Even more important then which mic or preamps you use. I have a few videos up on how I mic my drums you can check out.
I'm not sure the ITB mix is a fair comparison to the outboard mixes. The distorted guitars on the ITB mix are up the middle and on the outboard mixes they are hard panned, or at least spread out a lot more, making the outboard mixes seem a lot wider. Plus the outboard mixes have better low end which also could've been added in the ITB mix for a more apples to apples comparison. Not being critical but the guitars are not panned the same for the ITB and the outboard mixes.
The panning is exactly the same for all examples.
Console for sure.
foook. The console slams.
MCi was the best - the api was muddy and over saturated ITB wasn't bad.
I never mix with a counsel. I find that attorneys rarely have anything to contribute when mixing.
Sounds like you have a lot to learn! Enjoy!
The console mix is fat and big. Api also has its punch. Daw only...too flat. Plugins with hardware summing/Mixing give a special image/tone. Just a question: ¿All tracks routed to the API were stereo? ¿or some mono also?
Thanks Karim!
The kick, Snare, and Bass are mono up the center the rest of the tracks are stereo, vocals will be up the center to when I’m done tracking them.
Thanks again.
Steve
What console is that? Which Mci?
Mci 428 from 1976 lots of big Rock Records was done on this one from the 70’s to the 2000’s.
@@RiotHomeRecording cool i need to look it up
Spektor Baal
This one came from 4th street recording I talked to the owner and she said they did 15 gold & Platinum records only this console. Beach boys did Kokomo, Alice Cooper, incubus, alien and farm, hoobastank, Tonic, Fiona Apple, there’s more I just can’t recall but if you go on their webpage you can see bands sitting around it. It’s a cool little studio in Santa Monica CA.
@@RiotHomeRecording That is sick. I am using a Mixmaster20 summing device. I sounds really good. I been looking at the 4816 audient. Its clean from the samples i heard. With a older board i am worried about repair.
But that board you have sounds sick.
Can I work with you?
Sure I work with a lot of people on different projects let me know what you play.
@@RiotHomeRecording I am actually working as Assistant Sound Engineer since past 2.5 years. I was hoping if I could assist you.
Blew my ears out when the music came in…. so loud compared to the voiceover
Sounds good, but tune those guitars!
Thanks Dave, It’s more of the way I was holding the chords not the guitars being out of tune. A lot of the guitar parts on this was still scratch tracks at that point.
Console all the way, ITB flat and lifeless for me
I noticed that and the reverb was the exact same plug in set the same way for all the mixes. The reverb tails are more apparent on the console mix.
@@RiotHomeRecording Yup - for me Steve the OTB Mix is more 3D as is the case on my console. Reverb tails are indeed better on the console and they seem to wrap around you more. ITB for me is 2D, at least this is what I Hear here and on my console when using outboard.
Antoine Versace
For sure, some consoles add dimension to the sound that’s what I love about them.