There's a fun thing that's happening in the meta right now and that won't last long, but when I face a turn overbet these days I'm extremely happy. A lot of people know that flush draws are good candidates to do that, and they also know that flush draws must shut down river. So basically you can just call the turn overbet with most of your range and know that their river bet on a blank will be imbalanced strong, and their river check will be imbalanced weak.
@@JICM25 If they bet river I think it's really strong, because their main bluff on the turn is flush draws and they don't continue river with missed flush draws so they're imbalanced toward value. So I would overfold to their river bet. If they check, you can bet if you don't have showdown value, but most of the time you just have that and you can check down and win... It's just a spot that plays pretty honest so you just get to realize a lot. Be careful with this though because people will realize that this is happening, you won't get to do that in six months I'm pretty sure.
@@OsefKincaid tbf it doesn't really matter that much that people play these spots face up because the benefit of overbetting turns with fds and a over etc. is that you'll hit your equity like a quarter of the time and get a lot of folds against incorrectly balanced flop check backs.
This hand was surprisingly well played by both players. I thought poker out loud was a fish festival, but apparently there are exceptions. Great video as always.
They have poker vloggers on this season. Wide range of skill levels. Landon and Johnnie have been quite impressive, Matt has been good and Marle and Rampage are pretty fishy. Have to say it’s entertaining to watch.
@@CrypticJezuz I always thought the format was great. However, the level of play was so low that it was cringe. I don't think I would trust them to hear anything and so I wouldn't feel comfortable playing in that format tho.
Brilliant video as always but as they say it's easy to do a great cover of a great song. Should be easy to make a great video when Landon Tice writes the script!
@@bb-zt8ve I think what @ Ryan means is that he is impressed more with his thought process than the play itself, cause intuitive yes, a lot of decent players could end up playing like that. Even the biggest whale makes GTO plays time to time. Knowing what are u doing and why separetes you from others on a scale from donkey to wizard ;). But you're right also, his thought process of this spot exactly is nothing out of ordinary either. Every decent players with range understanding and some experience should be able to has this sort of thinking process.
question @ 5:20 , the table that pops up showing bet sizings from 12, 6.5, 4.36, 2.14, and check...did you input those sizings? when sizings are evaluated, are they on a scale that can be looked at at any junction? ie: if we put in a sizing of 11 would the solver like that a tad less and a sizing of 13 possibly favours it more? i'm just trying to get a feel of what data i'm looking at.
Johnnie clearly doesn't understand poker too well lol. "Why would he use this sizing when I capped my range." That's literally when you want to use overbets the most lol. Also think this is a spot where theory diverges extremely far from practice. In practice people know this is a board they can range bet but when they do check it will be with weaker showdown value hands and won't include many FDs which then make missed FDs good to barrel the river with because IP only has Qx, weak Kx hands and some weaker pairs.
Johnnie is thinking that, because his own range is capped, Landon should be more incentivized to bet smaller with his value hands so Johnnie can call. Basically, "why is Landon betting so large with a monster when I basically told him on the flop that I don't have a hand to pay him off with? Therefore he is probably bluffing right?" It's flawed thinking, but many players, including myself at one point, think this way. Unfortunately, this mindset leaves them betting huge when bluffing and not extracting max value from their premium hands, as well as playing the sheriff and paying off other players' monsters left and right.
hey man awesome video. Question, which are the value hands that are betting on this river for the OOP and what's the sizing? Noob here no idea how to read this solver lol. Thanks again!
Most top pair bet 33-67% Stronger hands bet up to 200%. The bar charts show the average actions for the hand classes. Red = bet/raise, Green = check/call, Blue = fold.
Lol Nah, Standard Live Read suggests that Landon’s look of disappointment and movement of face while giving his speech portrays an unhappy emotion and if he were to have bet any amount on the river Johnny Vibes would call.
We should be weeks out now and it will run on any computer with an internet connection and a browser. I can even run it on my phone though the charts are a bit hard to manipulate. Pricing is not finalized but it will be a subscription based service since it uses cloud computing. The pricing is going to be aimed towards the lower end of market.
Stefan Löfven Listen to how he talked about the spot and how confidently he came to a decision compared to Jonnie, who came to a similar conclusion but moreso as a guess. His understanding of spots and ranges is very impressive.
@@poster512 Yeah he was spot on but it was pretty standard according to me. I would like to know his leading range more exact though. Because my experience is that most players ranges are too semibluff-heavy in this spot.
Stefan Löfven fair enough- he does stream on twitch and he talks about spots often so that might solidify my point a little more. Only so much can be said during a single hand.
@@poster512 I thought it pretty impressive and liked the check on the river,i bet he got some stick for that but good players know when to give up and he was correct.
Johnnie said that he didn't like having the Qh on the turn which makes sense to me because he blocks some of the heart flush draws Landon could be bluffing with. However, at 11:13 the solver is calling (or raising) more often with combos of Q9o that contain a heart. What gives?
Qh doesn't actually block Landon's bluffs, since Landon holding Qh gives him showdown value with second pair, so he wouldn't be bluffing with Qh in his hand.
This is a cool play, but of course in actual implementation comes down to balance. Landon is good enough to do this with value as well, but I wonder if many people are actually balanced in this spot and would choose this sizing with two pair and sets
10:41 IMO Second pair is not right at the cut off point of calling and folding.Given that in reality he has almost no check backs on the flop with sets, two pair, overpair, top pair. So all of sudden Q9 is pretty high in his actual range which consists of GS with bdfd, GS, BDFD, 3rd pair, pocket etc
Yes it is. if it's not cut off point, those hands should be pure calling. But it's not, hands that worse than Q9o for show down is not truly worse than Q9o as a bluff catcher.
The largest default size is 200% on the river, but if a player actually uses 4x in any node it will be included in the game tree (in lieu of the largest default sizing).
@@FindingEquilibrium i meant for turn probes. maybe I don't fully understand how gtox works but if the sim doesn't include 4x turn probes then it simply won't have 4x turn probes right?
@@keirsullivan2578 The way it works is we have default betting options for each street, but the app will parse the hand history and replace one of our default betting options with the actual action taken from the hand history. So if in your game, Hero 4x the pot on the flop, turn or river, the solver will use that actual sizing in the sim. Although we do include some pre-solved solutions with GTOx, the GTOx solver calculates your hand from scratch based on the actual hand history. If you are asking whether it will incude 4x sizings if that wasn't in the hand history, no it won't. However, you can download the solved file and change the bets however you please for turns and rivers with the free version of simple postflop.
He didnt mention the bottom of his value range to obet turn . He also likely under 3bets axs based on his preflop chat. This all favours the IP player's bluff catching ev on the turn.
You can download solved hands and customize bet sizings/node lock with Simple Postflop. You can manipulate turns and rivers with the free version of Simple Postflop, but you will need a paid license to manipulate flops.
@@nickandrew1496 What do you mean by custom? It uses the actual bets from the hand and then adds other common sizings. If you are asking whether you can change the alternative sizings, the answer is only by downloading the solved file and editing the game tree with simple postflop.
@@FindingEquilibrium Thanks, now I got it. BTW, does solved file include rivers or just flop save? I've never used simple postflop before, but the size of a full tree in Piosolver is very big.
@@nickandrew1496 It saves the solved strategy for each node seen in the hand history, but you would need to resolve the turn/river if you want to explore a different branch. For example, the file will show the entire river strategy if you choose the flop and turn action from the hand history, but if you want to see what the river strategy looks like if IP or OOP took a different action on the turn, you would need to recalculate the river, which takes about a second and you can solve it with the free version of simple postflop. Edit: The saved file is usually less than 2MB sometimes less than 1MB depending on complexity of the tree.
I find it hard to believe that they can’t actually hear each other a little bit even with the headphones on. It doesn’t take away from the analysis, but it certainly effects the action they take, even the duration of the time they take to talk, you can get live reads on that and if you hear bits and pieces of what they say, then your decision changes. What do they hear in their headphones are they allowed to change the songs they listen to? are the headphones connected to their smartphones, Im not saying they would do this-But it can be human tendency And there is a human aspect to the game that is completely missed.
They aren’t allowed to stare at the other players face in this format. They have a dealer and cameras watching for it, plus the players all know each other and the intended format so they won’t angle each other.
@@FindingEquilibrium Can the players hear each other without looking? Or do you have a quiet pink noise playing in their headphones similar to what is used in court rooms?
@@CribNotes Good quality noise cancelling head phones means you would maybe hear sounds if the other guy was shouting as hard as he could but you couldn't make out words most likely. I have studio headphones and you need to start drilling next to me for me to hear anything you're doing when I have any sound on in the head phones. Most likely they also listen to music or something at the same time.
@@MK-13337 Indeed. You can notice when watching the episodes that all of them touch the right side of their headphones when it's their turn to act and touch it again after the option is passed, surely to pause/resume the music or whatever background sound they have playing.
12:50 Landon, "you probably dont want the 10 of hearts.." Curious if this is solver approved. I heard his reasoning but I don't agree with it. He actually goes on to say (we want him to have 10x in hearts like A10h) ... so we want villain to have the nuts when we bluff? To me, the 10h doesn't seem relevant other than blocking straights. I would assume 10xh are betting flop at a high rate just like he says 3:50 "blocking AK doesnt really matter when most of the time hes going to be betting the flop". So blocking 10xh doesn't really matter or am I wrong? In fact, I can see A10h checking flop more than 10xh that don't have showdown value. So having the 10h could be good, no?
is the time sooner than later when talks about 5bet strategy is just as common as 3bet strategy; if Landon is breaking down his thought process with elitism cognition, when will the time come when elite strategy is a foundation for counter-_________..........
Wait, TT is shoving river for 6x pot?
I mispoke. It was 2x.
Thought the exact same thing I was like wtf
@@estevanramos8827 if you dont think of 6x potting river with TT your game weak bro.
TT has no sd equity in this spot, but very good bluff card because of the blocker/unblocker effect
@@pawemichalak6275 😆
Someday I want a Finding Equilibrium video about one of my plays. That's how you know you've made it
This format of video is great!. Fun , new and instructive.
Landon is going to be a beast for years to come. So good and so young.
Great video.
So great man. Love that these guys showed their competence and knowledge in their analysis as well.
Arguably the most underrated poker content channel in youtube right now
Love you man. This content is very helpful. I never tried 2X on the turn before.
Why dident you use 2x?
Love the analysis. Top level stuff right here!
Nice video. Impressed with the tool you guys created.
Thanks!
As always thanks for this!!
There's a fun thing that's happening in the meta right now and that won't last long, but when I face a turn overbet these days I'm extremely happy. A lot of people know that flush draws are good candidates to do that, and they also know that flush draws must shut down river. So basically you can just call the turn overbet with most of your range and know that their river bet on a blank will be imbalanced strong, and their river check will be imbalanced weak.
So you then either raise their river bet or you bet when they check, right ?
@@JICM25 If they bet river I think it's really strong, because their main bluff on the turn is flush draws and they don't continue river with missed flush draws so they're imbalanced toward value. So I would overfold to their river bet.
If they check, you can bet if you don't have showdown value, but most of the time you just have that and you can check down and win... It's just a spot that plays pretty honest so you just get to realize a lot.
Be careful with this though because people will realize that this is happening, you won't get to do that in six months I'm pretty sure.
@@OsefKincaid I´m usually the guy who bluffs instead of the one who hero calls because I play micro stakes ^^ What stakes you play?
@@JICM25 no lol
@@OsefKincaid tbf it doesn't really matter that much that people play these spots face up because the benefit of overbetting turns with fds and a over etc. is that you'll hit your equity like a quarter of the time and get a lot of folds against incorrectly balanced flop check backs.
Thank you for the content!! Loving it!
This hand was surprisingly well played by both players. I thought poker out loud was a fish festival, but apparently there are exceptions. Great video as always.
They have poker vloggers on this season. Wide range of skill levels. Landon and Johnnie have been quite impressive, Matt has been good and Marle and Rampage are pretty fishy. Have to say it’s entertaining to watch.
@@CrypticJezuz I always thought the format was great. However, the level of play was so low that it was cringe. I don't think I would trust them to hear anything and so I wouldn't feel comfortable playing in that format tho.
@@pokerkramer1240 The seasons with Berkey and Nick Howard were actually comical. Some ridiculous reasons given for clearly bad play.
@@CrypticJezuz Yea FE's first video on a solveforwhy was comical.Marles call down with the A5 was cringe but this one was really good!
@@CrypticJezuz I thought Nick was a decent player
Love this video - great work
Yo love your content. What stakes do you play yourself Sir.EquilibriuM?
as a poker student and data analyst, i just HAD to subscribe and turn on notifications
These videos are amazing.
Brilliant video as always but as they say it's easy to do a great cover of a great song. Should be easy to make a great video when Landon Tice writes the script!
That was some sick play by both including the reasons why!
Nice video. Very useful.
Liked immediately for that POD intro
Hand analysis of a solveforwhy session: Im getting ready to eye roll and laugh a lot.
video ends: no laughs but pleasantly suprised
That’s impressive that Landon drills every street perfectly.
A young wizard
well flop and river were very easy decisions, preflop and turn his combo mixed, so pretty tough to not play this spot well
@@bb-zt8ve k
I REALLY like this kid!
@@bb-zt8ve I think what @ Ryan means is that he is impressed more with his thought process than the play itself, cause intuitive yes, a lot of decent players could end up playing like that. Even the biggest whale makes GTO plays time to time. Knowing what are u doing and why separetes you from others on a scale from donkey to wizard ;). But you're right also, his thought process of this spot exactly is nothing out of ordinary either. Every decent players with range understanding and some experience should be able to has this sort of thinking process.
Great one, thanks!
When is the product launching?! It's super impressive
I've never seen this. I actually think this format is really good. Where can I watch the full episodes?
Just curious what river-sizing does the solver prefer with KQ in this sim?
question @ 5:20 , the table that pops up showing bet sizings from 12, 6.5, 4.36, 2.14, and check...did you input those sizings? when sizings are evaluated, are they on a scale that can be looked at at any junction? ie: if we put in a sizing of 11 would the solver like that a tad less and a sizing of 13 possibly favours it more? i'm just trying to get a feel of what data i'm looking at.
Great video.
Nice review of the hand
Thanks!
Thank you!
Johnnie clearly doesn't understand poker too well lol. "Why would he use this sizing when I capped my range." That's literally when you want to use overbets the most lol. Also think this is a spot where theory diverges extremely far from practice. In practice people know this is a board they can range bet but when they do check it will be with weaker showdown value hands and won't include many FDs which then make missed FDs good to barrel the river with because IP only has Qx, weak Kx hands and some weaker pairs.
Yea this spot has been done in Jandas book which is almost old by this stage.
Johnnie is thinking that, because his own range is capped, Landon should be more incentivized to bet smaller with his value hands so Johnnie can call. Basically, "why is Landon betting so large with a monster when I basically told him on the flop that I don't have a hand to pay him off with? Therefore he is probably bluffing right?" It's flawed thinking, but many players, including myself at one point, think this way. Unfortunately, this mindset leaves them betting huge when bluffing and not extracting max value from their premium hands, as well as playing the sheriff and paying off other players' monsters left and right.
Well played hand all around
hey man awesome video. Question, which are the value hands that are betting on this river for the OOP and what's the sizing?
Noob here no idea how to read this solver lol. Thanks again!
Most top pair bet 33-67% Stronger hands bet up to 200%. The bar charts show the average actions for the hand classes. Red = bet/raise, Green = check/call, Blue = fold.
@@FindingEquilibrium thank you!
i can't wait to have GTOx
We are the youth of the simulation
Great video, thanks. I would have gone for the check raise on the turn (bigger sizing around 3.5x) if I were Landon but I liked his line too
Crotch Theory Optimal says Landon should bet big on the river and will win the hand.
Lol Nah,
Standard Live Read suggests that Landon’s look of disappointment and movement of face while giving his speech portrays an unhappy emotion and if he were to have bet any amount on the river Johnny Vibes would call.
What's the expected purchase cost for GTOx?
How long until gtox is available, what is the price point, & is it compatible with chromebooks? Videos here are great
We should be weeks out now and it will run on any computer with an internet connection and a browser. I can even run it on my phone though the charts are a bit hard to manipulate. Pricing is not finalized but it will be a subscription based service since it uses cloud computing. The pricing is going to be aimed towards the lower end of market.
Is Landon firing 100% of the time on the river here on ignition where the pool is anonymous?
10:54 - The Range Action Table for IP facing the turn overbet shows that calling is -EV. How can that be?
Hahaha. The outro... nice.
Landon's commentary alongside the GTO analysis just shows how far ahead he is compared to most players.
Nah. Standard.
Stefan Löfven Listen to how he talked about the spot and how confidently he came to a decision compared to Jonnie, who came to a similar conclusion but moreso as a guess. His understanding of spots and ranges is very impressive.
@@poster512 Yeah he was spot on but it was pretty standard according to me. I would like to know his leading range more exact though. Because my experience is that most players ranges are too semibluff-heavy in this spot.
Stefan Löfven fair enough- he does stream on twitch and he talks about spots often so that might solidify my point a little more. Only so much can be said during a single hand.
@@poster512 I thought it pretty impressive and liked the check on the river,i bet he got some stick for that but good players know when to give up and he was correct.
Johnnie said that he didn't like having the Qh on the turn which makes sense to me because he blocks some of the heart flush draws Landon could be bluffing with. However, at 11:13 the solver is calling (or raising) more often with combos of Q9o that contain a heart. What gives?
Qh doesn't actually block Landon's bluffs, since Landon holding Qh gives him showdown value with second pair, so he wouldn't be bluffing with Qh in his hand.
This is a cool play, but of course in actual implementation comes down to balance. Landon is good enough to do this with value as well, but I wonder if many people are actually balanced in this spot and would choose this sizing with two pair and sets
10:41 IMO Second pair is not right at the cut off point of calling and folding.Given that in reality he has almost no check backs on the flop with sets, two pair, overpair, top pair. So all of sudden Q9 is pretty high in his actual range which consists of GS with bdfd, GS, BDFD, 3rd pair, pocket etc
Yes it is. if it's not cut off point, those hands should be pure calling. But it's not, hands that worse than Q9o for show down is not truly worse than Q9o as a bluff catcher.
One of the worries I have here if the largest bet size you have is 2x. If you allow for large sims can use sizes as large as 4x
The largest default size is 200% on the river, but if a player actually uses 4x in any node it will be included in the game tree (in lieu of the largest default sizing).
@@FindingEquilibrium i meant for turn probes. maybe I don't fully understand how gtox works but if the sim doesn't include 4x turn probes then it simply won't have 4x turn probes right?
@@keirsullivan2578 The way it works is we have default betting options for each street, but the app will parse the hand history and replace one of our default betting options with the actual action taken from the hand history. So if in your game, Hero 4x the pot on the flop, turn or river, the solver will use that actual sizing in the sim. Although we do include some pre-solved solutions with GTOx, the GTOx solver calculates your hand from scratch based on the actual hand history.
If you are asking whether it will incude 4x sizings if that wasn't in the hand history, no it won't. However, you can download the solved file and change the bets however you please for turns and rivers with the free version of simple postflop.
Limitless 3x river?
9 35 did he say hero fold??
He didnt mention the bottom of his value range to obet turn . He also likely under 3bets axs based on his preflop chat. This all favours the IP player's bluff catching ev on the turn.
Nice analysis! I'm wondering if customized solution/node locking feature will be released at launch?
You can download solved hands and customize bet sizings/node lock with Simple Postflop. You can manipulate turns and rivers with the free version of Simple Postflop, but you will need a paid license to manipulate flops.
@@FindingEquilibrium Thank you for the response. So GTOx can not solve any custom inputs online?
@@nickandrew1496 What do you mean by custom? It uses the actual bets from the hand and then adds other common sizings. If you are asking whether you can change the alternative sizings, the answer is only by downloading the solved file and editing the game tree with simple postflop.
@@FindingEquilibrium Thanks, now I got it. BTW, does solved file include rivers or just flop save? I've never used simple postflop before, but the size of a full tree in Piosolver is very big.
@@nickandrew1496 It saves the solved strategy for each node seen in the hand history, but you would need to resolve the turn/river if you want to explore a different branch. For example, the file will show the entire river strategy if you choose the flop and turn action from the hand history, but if you want to see what the river strategy looks like if IP or OOP took a different action on the turn, you would need to recalculate the river, which takes about a second and you can solve it with the free version of simple postflop.
Edit: The saved file is usually less than 2MB sometimes less than 1MB depending on complexity of the tree.
Hi , your video are very great! But can you enable subtitels on your video pls? It will be more easy to understand for a non english mother tongue
Thx
which solver is he using?
gtox.io
What solver is this?
gtox.io
Let's overbet the river again
What song is that in the intro?
P.O.D. - youth of the nation
@@jillianmcguilicutty2296 thank ye
What solver was being used??
gtox. Hasn't been release yet, but soon.
"Soon"™. 4 months of soon and counting :)
GTOx
@@FindingEquilibrium Pricing on GTOX solver when it comes out?
WP by both players.
A10 is the nuts bud
I find it hard to believe that they can’t actually hear each other a little bit even with the headphones on. It doesn’t take away from the analysis, but it certainly effects the action they take, even the duration of the time they take to talk, you can get live reads on that and if you hear bits and pieces of what they say, then your decision changes.
What do they hear in their headphones are they allowed to change the songs they listen to? are the headphones connected to their smartphones, Im not saying they would do this-But it can be human tendency And there is a human aspect to the game that is completely missed.
Either way it's a good chance to hear players vocalizing thoughts in real time
Never understood how they know that their lips arent being read.
If you’re an expert at lip reading you’re taking everyone’s money on this table
That's why Johnnie was covering his mouth.
They aren’t allowed to stare at the other players face in this format. They have a dealer and cameras watching for it, plus the players all know each other and the intended format so they won’t angle each other.
@@FindingEquilibrium Can the players hear each other without looking? Or do you have a quiet pink noise playing in their headphones similar to what is used in court rooms?
@@CribNotes Good quality noise cancelling head phones means you would maybe hear sounds if the other guy was shouting as hard as he could but you couldn't make out words most likely.
I have studio headphones and you need to start drilling next to me for me to hear anything you're doing when I have any sound on in the head phones. Most likely they also listen to music or something at the same time.
@@MK-13337 Indeed. You can notice when watching the episodes that all of them touch the right side of their headphones when it's their turn to act and touch it again after the option is passed, surely to pause/resume the music or whatever background sound they have playing.
I made a video about a hand between Matt and JohnnieVibes.
I knew it !! Johnnie is a GTO BOT !!! 😂
Landon is a human solver 💢
12:50 Landon, "you probably dont want the 10 of hearts.." Curious if this is solver approved. I heard his reasoning but I don't agree with it. He actually goes on to say (we want him to have 10x in hearts like A10h) ... so we want villain to have the nuts when we bluff? To me, the 10h doesn't seem relevant other than blocking straights. I would assume 10xh are betting flop at a high rate just like he says 3:50 "blocking AK doesnt really matter when most of the time hes going to be betting the flop". So blocking 10xh doesn't really matter or am I wrong? In fact, I can see A10h checking flop more than 10xh that don't have showdown value. So having the 10h could be good, no?
man johnnie needs to get in the lab, you can tell hes guessing every street
is the time sooner than later when talks about 5bet strategy is just as common as 3bet strategy; if Landon is breaking down his thought process with elitism cognition, when will the time come when elite strategy is a foundation for counter-_________..........
Over rated bums... I played with these guys and Berkey and owned them all... come see me. I'm S.Dot22 you know the name 🤑