Major Tank Changes In War Within [Healer Perspective]
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Blizzards tank changes in mythic+ dungeons haven't been received favorably and many people are asking me about perspective as a healer. Don't forget to like and subscribe so that you're notified of my new videos! Read more below:
ORIGINAL VIDEO: • Thoughts on the BIG TA...
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I aim to create high level, yet easy to understand content for healers in M+ keystones for current World of Warcraft and into the new War Within expansion. If you have any feedback, questions, or ideas for new videos - I'd love to hear it in the comments.
![Major Tank Changes Rant in War Within[Part 2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YBcaSCXRbic/mqdefault.jpg)
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0:29 - Dorki: "Healing is binary".... Growl: "It is and it isn't" True, real, and proven guilty.
Now all we need is a tettles reacts to growl reacting to dorki to complete the roles
And dratnos reacts after and skips all tettles reactions in the video.
@@SarmonOflynn Same lol. Can't deal with Tettles
I really wish Tankbusters just had a universal Icon, or they were cast bars.
FFXIV, for all the problems I have with it - especially the healing in it - that's one they nail. Tankbusters are clearly telegraphed before they happen. If healers had warning of that, it wouldn't be such a pain point.
I do agree Blizz likes to stack mechanics on each other and create lose-lose scenarios for healer though. Dispels ESPECIALLY. I mean we just had a whole season of Afflicted where if it went out with a prio dispel, suddenly you're giga screwed because not dispelling will kill the party member, but not dispelling both afflicteds means your tank dies, and if your pug didn't take dispels for some reason you're just owned I guess.
But they bake that into fights a lot. "Here's a prio dispel, and we're following it with 5 seconds of group damage that might kill someone" is a pretty common design right now. It's fine and dandy to have dispels for the healer to get off within 1 tick or it's lethal. It's another thing to just slam someone for 95% health right after it. Maybe if dispel wasn't on the GCD and functioned more like interrupts it'd be fine, but as-is some of the fights just have 'lol screw you' moments the higher into keys you get.
Dispel should for sure not be on GCD, and I've felt that way for multiple expansions at this point.
You can make this with a custom Plater profile or BigWigs alert easily. The power is already in your hands.
@@hotchrisbfries Yes, but I shouldn't have to use a 3rd party addon and go through manually marking every single thing. And FWIW not all of the tankbusters in the game are trivial to track and tie an alert to.
They could just include it in the base game. They don't even need custom effects if they don't want it, just make sure tankbusters have a small cast bar. Really anything that helps a player look out for it.
Parry/dodges are a big problem with tank buster.
if you are lucky you parry all of them and your HP don't move... if you aren't lucky you get hit back to back and die. It's crazy how tank can do the same pull 10 time in a row and have wildly different outcomes cause of RNG parry.
@@vincenthamel3420 most tank busters are coded no not be dodge/parryable unless its a 100% chance
Imo anything that would take 80% of anyone's hp in 1 hit should only be shit on the ground or a frontal, or a well telegraphed spell action
I just recently came back to get ready for TWW, and decided I wanted to get KSM for the mount before the season ended, so I pushed my Resto druid pretty hard. Got my own key up to an 11RLP, but was only 496 ilvl. A single aoe pulse attack from the mobs brought me down to 2% health, and boss aoe attacks straight up insta killed me if I didnt pop Barksin AND go into Bear form. Shit was ridiculous.
@@aidenrevetta4805yeah but you are also way undergeared
@axel1253 496 in a +11 is actually straight up "you shouldnt be here" territory. Its not just undergeared its criminally undergeared
@thatepicwizardguy the RLP was a failure. Finished it but had 30 deaths and obvs didnt time. Got my key back up to an 11 HoI and was able to +1 it. Didnt bother trying the 12 lmao
@aidenrevetta4805 if you didn't know already, a +11 is equal to a +21 now. Being 496 is dumb unless you're extremely good and have a group of friends to carry you.
"we go from from 90% self sufficiency to like.....fuck nah shit's hard bruv" :D
oh great you can echo what someone else says without trying to understand the context yourself.
@@artug92 your reply to this comment is also scripted, botception
@@ChanJustWon you're an idiot... how's this for a bot reply??
My two favourite Cats.
When I healed in dragonflight I remember my tank asking for help at one point. I tried just healing them - no effect. So it was more of I can blow cooldowns for you, but I cannot 'just heal' you
I think you’re just saying words bruv
I agree w/op and growl, healers in DF aren’t able to push up tank health.
my major problem with tanks in dragonflight is they all had this absolute god complex that got increasingly annoying and i do think they were a bit TOO self sufficient. dorki's entire argument is very egotistical "im the best everyone else is bad players"a
Please the two of you make a tank and healer dating video with things you need to remember when playing with the different specs. Like "when your tank is a blood DK watch out for the pull and low runic power" or "when your tank is a brew monk watch out for high magic damage pulls" or "when your healer is a disc priest watch out for pulls where they have to run around a lot".
Dude, having completely self-sufficient tanks is the ultimate garbage for heals. DF was the worst healing meta I've played. If the tank doesn't need healing, your job is either frantically healing absurd damage on the DPS, or being a cut-rate DPS/chore-bot. Remember single target focused healing builds in raid? Tank-healers? HOLY PALLY? Yeah, me either. Maybe we'll get that back in TWW.
They should put more pressure on dps to be more active in the work of timing the key.
Well they already do (in normal groups) , you have to dispell, kick, offheal (if possible) and meet the minimum dps checks
its extremely hard to do that without putting more pressure on the healer/tanks
@@sockmonkey3393 well put emphasis is kicks and mechanics that you need to doge is a good start. Like the packs in the upper ring, if you don’t kick you get one shot or burn all your defensives at first pack!
I feel the changes are harder tanks for take because they have been so strong and self reliant for so long.
For them they would simply feel how much more dependent they are on their healer, or importantly their lack of agency on their survivability, which I can't imagine feels good.
It's probably why tanks are more negative about the changes than healers for example.
Overall I think the direction of including tanks more into the group dynamic and making the role of healing more important and interactive with the tank is a good one.
The major factor will always be game balance though, and how well Blizzzard does it will make or break the change for players in the long run.
I think this is a good take. I totally get the lack of agency for tanks but as a healer, I also want tanks to understand that as he lose, we have zero agency. So if you think it feels bad to not be mortal, that should give you a little taste of how it feels to be a healer whose healing is our DPS is poor and survivability is nonexistent. Dragon, one of the most useful things we could do was handle affixes in a key and I just didn’t feel good.
@@Linknla A fair amount of tanks in DF still didn't understand that if they died, it was 90% of the time on them. Pulled to big, overestimated damage incoming, no defensive overlap => Dead, proceeds to type "heale ?" in chat. Maybe don't pull 25% in a single go if you can't handle it ?
idk who is in charge of encounter design at blizzard but they are not doing a good job. These new dungeons look miserable with the amount of mechanics and the amount of overlap of them all.
I agree. I have been out since the end of legion, was looking to come back. I don't think I will last long in this expansion if this is the game design. I raided mythic in legion there was some overlap of mechanics, but this just looks like vomit on screen at this point.
Agree, it's a neverending story... they are increasing every class's survivability, because of solo content (delves) and then they need to create these ridiculous overlapping mechanics so players are actually threatened by something...
I don't think Dorki realizes how much of a different universe he is in from 99.9% of the rest of the gamers when he says tanks not needing healing is a false narrative lol. For most keys enjoyers tanks need little to nothing for healing bc the major limiting factor is never the tank living, its mob control or coordination issues. Most us will never experience high enough content where a tank will actually need a heal because we fail keys due to a mixture of other mistakes.
I hope you are right, these changes feel like they will only decrease the amount of people playing healers and tanks though
@@sunderwire These changes will 100% get more healers playing. DF made a lot of healers quit M+, myself included. M+ spam AoE healing is not fun, damage in DF is too bursty and a single global you miss a DPS will die. It's way too punishing
BfA and Legion you mostly healed the tank, you had to coordinate cooldowns with tanks while sprinkling AoE heal. Tanks are now just too OP, every single healer in my Guild swapped to tanking in M+
Top players still don’t realize the game should not be balanced around them, they make for 0.00001% of the player base and DO NOT account for wow revenues as much as the immense casual player base, that are quitting because healing does not feels good at lower level group M+ it might be sad but it’s the truth.
I agree with you grom! about the tank/healer relationship in pugs. As a tank, having a healer who cares alot for me gives me so much more confidence to pull bigger. There's no worse feeling than tanking a key and sweating EVERY single pull beacuse the healer wants to blast a few more wraths..
and then u get a shit healer and it ruins the key , damn only think about the good healers , its like pugs are the perfect spot to find good players , in classic expacs it was good cause mobs didn't realy have that much mechanics , but now mobs have more mechanics than bosses and on top of that they introduced the self sustain to us which tanks realy enjoyed for lots of expacs and thats why u see more tanks now being in the q , but nope fun police , we have to make it political so tanks rely on healers , gl finding tanks now exept blood dk on the first release.
@@sharkstaint1373, i dont think tanks who regularly have been tanking over the years are gonna quit tanking because of this change. Maybe the "new" tanks who only tanked DF or shadowlands etc quits. But this change will draw new ones in. Like me, who mostly heal and flex dps. Im looking forward to tanking this season
I, as a BDK, have a feeling that if a healer is ever ivolved in my healing other than providing an occasional external - that means I'm playing badly.
As for the question of dropping tanking - blizz made that decision for me - you cant buy the expansion from my country
Idk about TWW but in DF. Absolutely. Every good blood dk I played with literally just said dont heal me outside of auto atunement when I played disc s3 @@AntiFrizzz1
I fcking hate that I have to do damage as a healer…i would play dps for that, wtf. So unnecessary.
tank complains he is not able to top himself KEKW
"HEALERS don't understand that sometimes you can just play better"
LOL okay. Healers, who are intimately aware of every mistake the group makes because they are the first ones to ask why everyone is dying, are the ones who don't understand that sometimes you can just play better. Meanwhile, DPS who never interrupt, waste / don't use CCs, stand in every mechanic and LOS/range you and [especially in the case of pres evoker] force the healers positioning due to their positioning. "Why were you standing there?" "Well, because its the only place I could stand and hit multiple people with dream breath. Oh how I wish you were all melee."
He is talking about top 100 performers.
They are talking about pushing limits, which made me quit this video lol, im a normie i dont do that stuff.
I've been healing since WotLK. Tank was always the first target. In DF I get flaimed when I heal tank ́s ^^
My healer quit the game in season 1 of Dragonflight.....broke my heart and our keygroup. I miss her........cries in the corner.
Season 1 sucked ENTIRE @$$ especially if you were a holy priest
Rip. Doesn’t look like blizz wants healers to come back with these changes…. Gonna be a brutal season for finding pug healers and tanks
@@Linknla She was. She loved her priest.
Also stopped healing s1
SO i was a holy priest in s1. I dont remember s1 what was bad about it
The tanks overestimating how much I actually am able to heal them has been my problem for quite some time. xD It's like, okay, bro, I'm spamming you during this insane pull we're apparently doing, yet my biggest heals don't even seem to move your HP up. You could spam the tank the whole dungeon, but it's incredibly inefficient and actually accounts for a small fraction of healing done on tank. Or there's group dmg like chillstorm on 1st boss Ruby that demands all people to be topped while taking damage and tank getting clapped.
When did tanking go from "managing incoming damage using mitigation, cc and other techniques" to "i wanna self-heal everything"?
It's been a gradual shift as people get less and less willing to rely on other people I feel like. Every MMO has been feeling it and I'm glad Blizzard decided to pump the brakes here and bring back an amount of reliance on the healer for tanks
16:00 Truly not trying to be mean, dorki seems like a cool guy, but is he playing the same game as everyone else? What on earth is this take??
As a tank and healer player i like what they want to accomplish but what they are doing is just the opposite. make tank tankier outside of cds and make healer actually able to heal a tank by increasing the heals they do on "tank role" players
This. A good tank should be able to feel safe on low ish hp if they know what they’re doing. Being at risk of a one shot when you’re 80% hp is a problem, but so is being able to get yourself to 100% without assistance. The tank should be a rot management role that they’re incredibly strong at, not competing against healer hps with only their own heath bar. Make their mitigation strong af, and boost their hp And healing taken. Give a great healer the opportunity to carry a tank in low stuff and vice versa but also allow a good tank healer team to actually matter. Imo it hasn’t been working in df, they’re all roles in one while everyone else is playing a team game. I play both btw.
@@Shazzan77 Exactly tank agency and skill should be of making his hp go down as slow as possible, make them go back up up should be healer job what i hate most as tank,and i think i can speak for every honest tank player, is die without a way to stop it from happen(wich is kinda every non meta tank in any key wey below the top lvl) or be alive forever when everyone else is dead. kiting isnt fun and is not a fuking gameplay neither is standing still and sitting all the aoe and not losing a single hp.
nah, don't agree with your solution. Tanks should use tank stats to increase their passive survivability and at the same time mechanics should be adjusted so that tanks don't get one-shoted or their health is like a rollercoaster... And the deadly mechanics should be obvious so tanks use their abilities to avoid/mitigate that dmg or communicate with healers to use some kind of protection... The damage taken should be smoother outside of special abilities... I think, tanks should be able to build up towards more "tankiness" while sacrificing "dmg" or vice versa. (using different stats). somewhere between now and how it used to be... (used to play tank alt, but raid tanking is so freaking boring that I dropped out and really don't enjoy DK rollercoaster health bar so I don't tank M+ either)
@@martin9202 so you dont agree but than proceed to say exactly what we said.....im really confused and so are you
@@sleshflex4170 that goes against the core design of BDK, VDH, Ppal and to some extent Gdruid.
Let's not go back to classic where tank only have one flavor : big HP and big AC.
When you 4 dps keys in the MDI and wonder why tanks get nerfed like a mf 😂
@@solar1716 has nothing to do with that.
someone mentioned it in chat, and now i CANNOT unhear it.. when growl finishes a sentence he goes MHMmm at the end
Tank in dragonflight was just to far ahead, and where u go when ur washed/ready to retire from the game but then realize “oh I can just tank and still be just as good” I hope we do go back to tank being relatively hard where people start saying “we got tank checked” instead of all u hear about is getting “heal checked” or “dps checked”
they are not increasing the difficulty of the tank specs, their just making the specs worse
if 99% of tanks disagree with a change, and like 60% of healers (and most healers disagreeing are doing +2s and shit) the average of them is disagreeing, so its a stupid change anyhow
@@becjed1701 That's not his argument. During all of DF, you could "carry" yourself to higher io by playing tank, by virtue of being virtually impossible to kill provided you pushed some buttons. To time a key all you need is 3 non braindead dps and a healer. Easy io.
As a tank I love your take. I love the reliance on the healer as a tank. That used to be such a fun part of the teamwork between tanks and healers imo!
As a tank main: I am honestly mostly worried about healers in general. As a tank, I can rotate and maintain my defensives to help the healer. I can smooth it out when needed to let the healer catch up and do my best
But the healer has to sit and juggle flaming swords, while walking on stilts, while avoiding multiple mechanics every 2 seconds and keep DPS alive that face tanks every mechanic known to man, for the sake of DPS uptime
They can nerf tanks and healers, but they cannot keep those changes along with the absurd amounts of mechanics and their outgoing damage. They cannot keep both or the new direction will fall apart. Either one of those two directions needs to be removed
Needing Incarn for every trash pull is a bit extreme. Hello Blizzard?
While fixing the healer/tank relationship is a wonderful idea, this is the kinda thing a reasonable development team would have done before the alpha/beta feedback. Doing it now is neurotic.
Every expansion, S1 is a nightmare. Cause every expansion, all the feedback is from mythic raiders, gladiators, streamers, and people who run +20s every season. So, right now -- the dungeons are overtuned, they just added a bunch of mechanics to some dungeons to undermine the affix changes, and now they just nerfed tank durability.
Also the actual problem they're trying to solve is caused entirely by the active mitigation for tanks. In order for active mitigation to work, tanks have to be squishy by default. That means, tanks just die when they goof their rotation. So the skill floor is extremely low. For an average player -- it feels like drowning. In that system, tank self healing is kinda like the little floaties on your arms.
So Blizzard is basically now putting little weights on tanks ankles by nerfing their durability, and getting rid of one of their floaties by nerfing their sustain-- in order to make healers feel more useful... and that really isn't the fix. It's probably fine for super skilled players, but for the average joe it just screws them over. If they actually wanna fix the healer/tank relationship -- they need to make tanks extremely durable first, then reduce their self healing so they can't just run off into the distance without a healer.
But that wouldn't be challenging enough for the streamers/mythic raiders/people running +20 keys every season, so instead everyone else just gets to suffer until S4 when Blizzard starts pretending like they care again, after all the casuals have quit already.
you made cuz you not a streamers/mythic raiders/people running +20 keys every season??
And it's funny if you play the pre-patch with all the inflated RIO you can see these tanks playing on their own disregarding entirely the composition of their group, not even being able to measure after few pulls if the group has what it takes to survive bigger pulls. No, they are in their bubble totally unaware if the group is kicking/interrupt or not ...they keep pulling and pulling thinking because they are alive it's alright we are .moving fast while forgetting that you waste more time having the dps's dying. (fyi this was in a +14 key)
For real i started to call that the "Classic approach" : you try so hard to force your way (up) but the game tells you : NO. (change your approach)
Okay, so I've always had a healer and tank since vanilla. Even though I main a mage. I've always leveled a tank and healer on standby to help out, and there's been one expansion where I mained my tank and my healer. Tanks and healers have always had a symbiotic relationship, and from expansion to expansion, we've seen the balance go back and forth.
Like back in the day, tanking Kara, or tanking Deathwing, or Antorus. When I was healing Black Temple or any of the other raids. I've always done mythic+ as DPS, but until Dragonflight, healers and tanks had some level of cooperation. You couldn't solo tank a boss and self heal as a tank, and rely on a couple heals here and there, or maybe a big pop heal after a big hit.
That was never really a thing.
Neither was solo healing a raid boss. The last time I did that, it was a 10-man Eye of Eternity and my priest was the only healer for the first few bosses until we found someone. Then someone else did the whole thing and a week later, holy priests got nerfed.
They've always tried to keep tanks and healers strong, but not too strong. Dragonflight blew that out of the water. As long as you followed the mechanics, you didn't have to be a particularly strong healer or tank. I was keeping half a raid alive by making sure PoM was always bouncing around and renew was on as many targets as I can. The passive heals were triggering rewew and I was overhealing without even casting any big spells.
The changes seems more like a correction than a bad thing. If you started playing a healer or tank during Dragonflight, I can see where this was something bad, like a nerf or whatever, but if you've been doing it for a while? It's like coming back to normal.
That's where I am with it right now. I'm maining my priest for War Within and I'm kind of looking forward to it because it won't be boring. Pim, New, heal, spellword! Ooh AoE, circle of healing. rinse and repeat.
I think it's going to be a good reset and we're going to see who good tanks are and who good healers are, and we're going to see a lot of players become more skilled players, which actually helps everyone in the long term.
18:33 Why is it a problem that people pull too big all the time? Rant time!
Because it's not fun to just run after a speedy tank with limited mobility as a healer. Then while running, you have to try to keep the dps alive that aggro'd some mobs along the way, with healing spells where you have to stand still in order the cast them, and then the tank dies miles away because no one could keep up and he pulled way too much just for himself to handle. The tank then gets all pissy about it, throws a temper tantrum, and leaves the group.
So you either have to let the dps die and have them release and run back, taking them out of the dungeon run for a couple minutes. Or have the tank die and you'll have to wait however long it takes to get a new tank because they rage quit after 1 wipe. So most of the times you let the dps die and keep running until the tank decides they've pulled enough for their ego.
I can tell you that both healers and dps don't like this, I've had friends that quit playing because of this, and I myself usually stop playing a month after a new expansion drops when this becomes more the average dungeon experience as well.
Besides that the healer role has become more of a dps-babysitter as well, where the only times you need to do some more serious healing is when the dps thinks "you know what, I smell good being burned alive, I should do this more often, just a little me-time". And the tank's hp you'll sometimes check like you're checking in at that hermit neighbor's door and hope you don't smell the stench of death. And when you finally do see that hp-bar going down you start casting your heal, but then before your cast goes off that hp-bar is already full again.
And the point that he makes about having to take into account what kind of healer you have with you, healers have had to do that for a while until DF I feel. Funnily enough I had a friend ask me recently what tank I preferred to heal, and I couldn't think of one for this expansion. I guess it'd be DK's because of their limited mobility, and they bring a battle rez. (I usually play Priest or Monk) But previous expansions I definitely had my preferences.
Also to show how bad healing is atm. Take Holy Priest for instance, this entire expansion you don't talent your AoE heals for dungeons... You only take your Holy Word: Sanctify which is on a 1 min cooldown along with Apotheosis which is on a 2 min cooldown, and that's it for AoE heals. You do however, spend many points in dps talents, and for Priests I always take the Body and Soul talent so I can somewhat keep up with the rushing tanks, by casting this sequence on myself: shield > feather > shield > feather > shield > feather > shield.
Also also... You have this happen in the time-walking event dungeons at times, where the entire group is dead except for the tank. And the tank just easily solos a dungeon boss... Nothing makes you feel more useless than watching that play out.
In other words, it's just NOT fun when you feel like you're just a dps pretending to be a healer... and as dps it's just running and try to get some form of rotation out, I wonder why BM hunters are the most popular ranged dps? And sure this might not be the case all the time and at higher keys this becomes a bit less of an issue. But for the majority of players, this is what they see, and new players that see this, quit...
So yes this definitely needs fixing, and as a healer main I miss the days of the Cata dungeons, when the group as a whole had to work together instead of just ego tripping over dps meters, and ego tripping tanks that wanna see just how much of the dungeon they can solo.
I am in favor of tanks not being 100% self sufficient, because it's a team game. The fact that they aren't might feel worse for the tank, but it's a way for healers to express their skill. And it creates that thing yumy was talking about, the healer and the tank feeling each other out. That is wayyyyy more fun to play for both sides than 'tank handles 90% of things by himself.' That said, more telegraphing would be good.
Wayyy more fun for both? I beg to differ as a 10 year tank main but I guess healer options matter more than tanks on tanks being nerfed.
14:30 To fix healing they need to nerf tanks, the issue with healers is how little you have to heal tanks.
With how tanky they are means that for a mob to deal decent tank damage it will oneshot other classes or close, which means constant spike damage which is what we have in DF which made a lot of healers quit.
DF was the first expansion I had more trouble finding healers than tanks while playing DPS and it should NEVER be this way. Tanking by design (they are the lead) should be less new player friendly therefore be harder to find.
I'm confused... I skipped dragonflight isn't this change just a revert to how it was in older xpacs? Also if tanks could heal 90% of the damage they take themselves why run a healer and not 4 dps?
to heal the dps specs, the problem is those dps specs have stupid cds like ancestral guidance to heal the group, tanks being "op" wasn't the reason people were or ever will do 1 tank 4 dps, since tanks (except prot pala) cant external dps for reasonable amounts for surviving
“this is a ridiculous pull”
6 mobs are on screen
Just going to throw it out there. Tank content creators are complaining about being less self-sufficient, meanwhile doing +10s in lfr
ormal raid gear. As soon as people are gonna get more gear on retail, I'm certain everyone is gonna forget about that issue and are just gonna say how some tanks are worse than others in push keys.
I guess the plan for blizzard is have the 99% be happy to finish a +10, and have the 1% fuck around in keys above 10. But if M+ is so much harder they should make the rewards closer to Mythic raiding.
And that’s how it should be the 1% doesn’t matter. It’s democracy. If you want dictatorship go to Russia or China
I'm interested to see how that will affect the healing experience. however i'm slightly worried about how frequent some of those tank busters are. Sure i'd like to feel more like a healer rather than a pretty bad 4th dps that only casts a heal gcd when absolutely necessary. but the tank stuff scares me since often it is not easy to fill that massive healthpool of a tank back up quickly. Especially for healers that struggle with spothealing already like disc priest, as it was mentioned in the video. Scary stuff. Exciting, but scary.
with how it looks rn, disc is DOA and actually trolling in these dungeons, priest in general is dead for pugs
They are going to have to revisit healer toolkits. Right now, holy priest have a lot of spells in our spell book, but only about three or four useful heels in our tool kit. I think what’s happened is over the years as tanks and DPS have become more independent and less reliant on healers that the overall healing tool kit has been adjusted to match. Now that they are looking to increase healer efficacy, our kits are going to have to shift to meet those new challenges.
"Healers will have to heal more and that is a problem..." - o So youre saying I might finally have a way to get OOM during M+ runs? And I actually will need skill to heal? Wow I might actually start to have fun again as a healer! That's not what I want..!
I came back from a 7 year hiatus near the end of DF, and one of the first things I did was solo a world boss without realising it was a world boss.
It took ages to kill, but I wasn't exactly struggling to stay alive. Frankly? I'm GLAD that I can die to bad pulls or failing mechanics now. Save the god stuff for remix I like to work for my survival.
Wait, so what is the conclusion?
If you can do a +10 with some difficulty, after getting experienced, that seems fine.
One thing regarding the tank buster, what if they make a design change where tank busters are usually a heavy amount of damage over let's say 4-6 seconds? Sort of imlementing Brewmaster's stagger mechanic into most(not all) tank busters.
I see 90% of tanks going to rush pugs (like usual), die and blame the healer
Same as S4 DF, undergeared tanks just went in, pulled whole room and melted😂
@@MrSherhi Aaaand someone left. Key bricked. Healer thinks f this sh*t rerolls dps. Majority of players: where’s all the healers?
youtube has it all. I just watched a cat watching another cat play some video games
Mythic plus on the beta is dogshit. Thats my feedback after weeks of testing. And after these tank nerfs its even worse. Its too damn hard and its impossible to kill some bosses, and the timer is always depleted. Definitely ready for launch...
Since Aug is stated to be a DPS spec, it should ONLY affect DPS classes with their buffs. That'll make it much more reasonable and easier to balance Aug. Giving a DPS more main stat doesn't really boost their defensives too much, compared to a tank etc.
"there are bad platers therefore we shouldnt let good healers have fun and have agnecy."
Apply this same reasoning to DPS and tanks and you'd all riot.
Right? Dorki being like 'Oh but what if the healers bad?" as if everyone else doesnt have to worry about the tank being bad. It's GROUP content, tanks talk like they're playing a single player game
No one (healer or dps) can carry a bad tank. It’s literally over.
You can’t heal a one shot.
You can’t dps mobs if the tank is dead.
If the tank is dead, you are dead.
Where are the No tank meta keys? Obv they don’t exist.
Reduce the power of the tanks self healing and increase their ability to manage sustained damage. Make them strong af in their damage mitigation role but stop the health bar yo-yo self healing solo game they’re currently playing.
@@Shazzan77 bring back old vengeance and I guarantee tanks will have fun no matter how squishy they are
you have agency as a healer, fun is subjective,
not being the only one with real agency doesnt mean you dont have it
healers have agency in DF over 4 hp bars
tanks have 1
now tanks are having that removed
about the 80% hit mechanic on tank, THEY SHOULD JUSTE THEIR CD AT THE RIGHT MOMMENT QUITE OBVIOUS TOO...
"Healers need to heal more" uhhh makes sense to me
Guarantee once the season kicks off and the masses who don’t follow the patch notes experience this tank nerf there is going to be an uproar from the general healer community.
People can do better. This might actually bring more hero type of healers to the game its cool.
This is the discussion of "defining what a healer is supposed to do" again kind of but they decided to make tanks the problem this time? Imo the tank should probably be a survivability-bot that has self-healing and defensives but really low dps, dps should be mostly squishy dps-machines with very few defensive and self-healing options, healers should be healing certain mechanics and do relevant damage (though a lot lower than a true dps) when the group is doing well at managing the mechanics. If you want to hit tanks then amp up threatgain and lower damage for every tank. This makes the tank be able to handle mechanics targeted at tanks (survivability), healers can manage threats to the group (fuckups and groupwide damage) and dps can handle dealing damage while dealing with mechanics.
Seems like its time for tanks to put on their running shoes :/ Use cds, when cds run out kite and get topped so they can go back inn.
Tanks - welcome to healer life where we have no idea how much dps will press defensives and it’s either a smooth or an absolute cluster F 😂
The problem is that a dps dying is bad but a tank dying is a wipe
You wanted to Tank?
Well now you have to be tankin' the Nerf aggro.
Tank player here. As much as I like getting quick group invites, Blizzard should be looking to incentivize more players to tank (and to a slightly lesser extent, heal). As Growl and Dorki point out, making tanks more fragile and requiring healers to hard focus them more isn’t fun for anyone in the group and will only discourage people from stepping up to fill those already underrepresented roles. And having fragile tanks actually increases reliance/focus on tanks, not the opposite. Tank power was not an issue anyone cared about
I can... Only speak for myself about this, if tanking becomes unfun for myself, I will hop over to Aug instead. I prefer the support role and tank does mentally fall into that personally (Of supporting my team "Indirectly" (Allowing my team to survive without healing(Tanking), boosting damage without smacking the enemy myself).
True, but your solution is fixing consequences not the root of the problem... It's similar to Healers... Tanks are currently built towards being basically dps with high sustainability... Don't enjoy the fantasy and I really find tanks just annoying to play... (I'm not the only one) I haven't enjoyed tanking for quite some time and as time went I stopped playing tanks entirely... I really don't enjoy this damage focus tanking at all and just smashing abilities without thinking...
Similiar to healer, been main healer since Wrath and currently wow getting to the stage when I'm considering dropping healing as well... Healers are just becoming another dps who passively heal... don't enjoy the playstyle and considering probably just play dps... maybe aug evoker as alt...
Overall, in my opinion, it's the playstyle/fantasy that most of the players (causals) care about... For example, hunters been underperforming for some time and still so many people playing the class because of the fantasy... Priests to some extent as well (especially in PvP) disc was one of the worst healers at one time and it was still the most popular healer... (resto druid similar)...
Tanks should of never been that self reliant in the first place. The omg tanks suck I can't fully sustain myself through m+ sounds really stupid
Call me old school but back in the days of ye mmoes of olde tanks had zero self-healing at all, and everybody was fine with it. Blizz had been cultivating a toxic gameplay paradigm for years, of course it comes as no surprise that people got used to it and are now reluctant to actually be reliant on their group in a group activity. Actually, this dynamic sounds quite similar from the transition from MOP to WOD where tanks were similarly nerfed from gods to demigods and everybody was QQing like babies.
@ivanivanovich1020 I agree it also bled into healing. I used to pvp dps and pve heal but pve healing just feels like a non intuitive dps heal mash up no ty if I wanted to dps I'd play a real dps
So on beta we see tank in LFR gear specced max DPS builds crying that groups get wiped (clearly failing basic mechanics on most youtube videos) in m10+ and higher. And oh no, supposedly in DF even tanks sometimes (only sometimes, only some bosses) had to use tank trinkets. Are you even listening to yourself guys?
What they should try to do is tone down some of the damage scaling in keys, making top level keys more about having enough damage while still surviving instead of either timing the key with a couple of minutes to spare or wiping and dying.
The thing is if the tank healer relationship is bad, the dungeon is just going to suck. Having tanks be more self sufficient means tanks can take care of themselves and the group continues.
A breakdown of tank healer means the group wipes. Blizz is really playing with fire and i kinda hope it blows up in their face because this is a bad direction to go.
Well, it is a group activity where everybody is supposed to depend on the others. Of course, it is going to suck if the relationships are bad. DPS also cannot tank mobs alone without the help of the tank.
I feel like dorki is looking at this with the eyes of shit will hit hard forever and having to rely on healer is bad, but the whole point of the tank nerf is so that they can rebalance the game so that tanks dont need to deal with 80-0% mechanics, the whole point is to start with nerfing tanks then nerfing dungeon damage to then rebalance defensives all over, the question is if blizzard is dedicated to actually doing this. The times i have enjoyed healer the most in this game has been when i spend 98% of my time healing, and the times i have enjoyed tanking has been when i rely on my group to help me out. None of those things have been true in dragonflight, and i miss the times where the game is a group game and not a tank driving a taxi with the healer is keeping 3 dps on a leash through 100% of the content. A lot of dorkis arguments are also for the top 0.01%, yeah you had to minmax the shit out of the game to survive content, but me as a lower difficulty player litterally was a god when i was playing tank, i didnt have to minmax anything and thats a huge issue, the difficulty should be wide from bottom to top, not just a part for the top players
Healers actually matter now. This is such a good change of direction. Tanks shouldn’t be able to solo dungeons.
Yea we should. Shouldn't take away out choice or ability to help people.
Another content creator said “no tank wants to have to rely on a healer to survive”
Like, really?
The whole team relies on each other, or at least, that’s the kind of game I want to play.
A +2 isn't a good litmus
@@geraldbolum9422 Guess you will have to actually work as a team then. Good.
Healers have always mattered. This is such a weird take from healers.
Everything he mentioned about healers having agency over the groups success is 100x truer for tanks and no one complains because tanks get treated like divas.
Lets say blizzard nerfed all healers by 60-70% you would be ok with that?
No real changes to the other roles.
@@havtor007 if it made the game better overall yes
If not then no
@@bidu2331324 And that is the MAJOR issue the change to tanks is SO CLOSE to launch we are LESS then 1 month away from launch here.
And this will require a crap load of tuning to make right.
Making the game better overall in 30days is going to be very hard.
Do you trust blizzard to be able to tune this when they have had 4years and STILL has not been able to tune aoe dps for dps players?
@@bidu2331324 So you trust blizzard to balance the game in less then 28days?
@@bidu2331324 So you think they will get this right in 28days?
Seems like this is their way of trying to keep healers from being bad dps who sometimes heal.
Tanks now have to play the game, they were able to put auto pilot on and run through the dungeon not caring about the party
Tank / Healer synergy makes WoW group content so much more enjoyable for everybody that how smoothly it's all going. If it's not there the group can really struggle... That means it's much more appreciated and not taken for granted... I really like the changes, because so many times in pugs, tanks are basically immortal and absolutely don't care about their surroundings or their group... And if a tank can take a boss in M+ 1v1... something is wrong... I personally wish the passive self-sustainability to be totally minimalized for everybody... then the mechanics can be adjusted and the whole game a little bit slow down and go back to be a little more a strategy game once again. And also if more outdoor contents need a healer or two and are not solo-able by tanks or even some dps would be a great step towards MMORPG principles... I understand that everybody wants to feel like a god that they don't need anybody, they can do everything by themselves, but that's not good for the health of the game...
I sense dodge tanks coming back.
give us FF14 tank buster telegraphing?
ew no
@@eodyn7 Don't fanboy. It's a good thing to copy good features from other mmo's.
You like the new flying don't you? It was ripped off gw2.
No thanks, flying is different.
I think i broke it. 😂
90% of the bad reactions to the tanking nerfs are from people who saw their favorite UA-camr or streamer dog on the changes and then they turn around and repeat it without any sort of testing.
They are just parroting opinions.
That's what happens with a content obsessed population and a few vocal human centipedes.
I feel like they maybe could try something with the active mitigation tech from back in legion, where if a tank has a defensive active (bark, shield wall, whatever) tank busters could do like 50-70% less strong. Idk if I’d count like bone shield/iron fur/concecration, the high uptime defensivess. But pushing rune tap or AD at the right time should be rewarded.
except that tanks have near 100% uptime on those? so what?s the point?
actually nevermind : bone shield - shuffle - ironfur - shield block have 100% uptime. SOTR sits at maybe 90% ( who know, since Ppal suck so much on beta right now) and demon spike is a bit lower.
@@vincenthamel3420 not in season 1 - more like if you have an absorb up would be the way
well it is rewarded. they are talking about tank getting hit for 80% hp with one of the defensives active. without one you just get 1 tap
@@Kavaren yes, even in season 1 shield block - shuffle - ironfur - boneshield had 100% uptime. SOTR and demon spike being very close.
What absorb you talking about? Ppal don't have any significant absorb. VDH don't talent into the one awful absorb they have. Brew only have one absorb every 45 second with celestial brew. Druid don't have an absorb. BDK absorb is passive... only Pwar have on-demand absorb in the form of ignore pain.
Healing the tank and DPS is how it should be. Blizz needs to balance every role so this is a challenge and not a single point of failure. Raiding in classic TBC, wrath and Cata is all about healing everyone. It's clear that retail got away from this and going back to the roots is scaring everyone. I welcome the change if executed properly.
You already fail if the healer is bad and l the DPS die. The Tank dying without the healer too is just pointless.
I swapped to tank in DF. I loved it. If I died it was my fault. I liked it that way.
Same, instead of looking at the healer you were able to reflect why you died and how to prevent it next run but TWW is going to cause a lot of shitty situations for tanks
Not sure if you read comments but, unless I'm crazy, I definitely remember pulling smaller also in Dragonflight season 1. And no one was complaining about tank or healing problems then or? Isn't it just always the case with lower secondaries and the fact the dungeons havent been figured out and tuned properly for a bit? Like ok there was no Aug, but like Outlaw Rogue and enhance shamans were king season 1, both of which are target capped so that just kinda proves they were smaller pulls
The problem with aug is that there's nothing else like it. There needs to be more support specs.
This is feedback with coordinated statics in voice comms. Pugs will be great
I think the biggest nerf is that previously if you had a trash healer in pugs tanks could carry and usually manage to get by. Now, if the healer is trash the key is done.
Take away my healing, take away my damage, take away my stupid utility. But please, dont take away my tankiness. Taking away any of those 3 already cuts our "solo" content
healing is a part of your tankiness, a huge part
but at the same time, solo content you dont even need half of what dps provide durability wise to live, so its a non issue there
@@becjed1701 it does. BUT!, no need to decrease oilur defensives too...
@@solemvow6281 healing is a defensive, they shouldnt be cutting that at all
@@becjed1701 you kinda do need the tankiness for slo content because since your damage is garbage, any fight against a strong oponent becomes a war of attrition.
@@thorveim1174 the only solo content you need tankiness for of a tank is challenge mode stuff like layer 13 delves, and mage tower (since it's designed only for tanks)
Otherwise solo content you can ignore defensives on dps specs, and your fine, same with tanks
They could half tank defensives and solo content would be the same easy shit
Ive been playing healer for several seasons now. The problem for me is that healer is responsible for everything really i feel like, u need to heal, dps, kick, do your stops, do all the affixes etc etc. Now u have to keep an eye on tanks too. Idk, i feel like its getting too much now. When i play my mage it feels so chill in comparison.
dragonflight really improved the mythic+ experience and blizz said NOPE CANT HAVE THAT
@@codyrompalo9661 not for healers
It’s a damn shame that tanks may need to prioritize survivability over damage.
It’s pretty clear blizzards intentions are that tanks require healing to survive. So how would taking more defensive talents change that?
What tanks are not suppose to TANK ?
I thought they were dps's ?!
Well I also feel the DPS should actually use their utility as well. This would make you want to pick more different classes too .
The tank nerf felt so out of left field. It hurt tank agency without addressing the problem of defensive creep on DPS and all the problems aug brings to healthy balance.
On healer damage, I think a good solution would be to reduce healer damage output so that it is inconsequential to key completion but reward healers who find the time to weave in damage abilities additional resources or small healing throughput gains to make their lives easier when dealing with damage that will inevitably come.
90% ---> ????
memes aside I think it's bad for the game to have tanks be ignored by healers. For the last few years (since SL season 2, 3ish) the common rhetoric was "if you have to heal the tank they're doing something wrong" which is pretty weird when you consider the dynamic of every MMO ever, and most of WoW itself's history. It places a huge burden on new tank players that they can't rely on anyone else to live, and creates a weird situation where newer tanks are being told they're not supposed to be healed (???) and healers aren't supposed to heal them (???). Like you said, I think the tank/healer relationship in group content is pretty core to the game and losing that is to the game's detriment.
Yeah I don't know what Blizz are thinking like yeah okay I get the idea but they didn't need to make it this drastic. Tanks don't like this and healers don't like this so why? Why spend time, resources and effort into this? It makes me feel like this is someone trying to justify their job within the company or at some meeting a manager has heard feedback and just ran with it without really understanding the situation or the impact it is having/will have.
But once again pour one out for us healers getting the shit covered end of the stick once again.
couldn't disagree more at @7:25 aug has constant knockups to stop casts and melees through dungeon, blistering scales to buff tank surf and dmg, and ebon might health buff, that utility is absolutely massive, on top of aug bringing the stat buffs for tanks and healers make them so much better than dev its crazy.
Blizz just clearly has some balancing to do in order to make this work. Reduce pack mechs overall, increase the timer (is timing even a problem if everyone lives?), and increase hp yet again! lol.
Also, personally fine it silly a tank and solo any 10+ boss from like 50% with everyone dead so long as there isn't a soft enrage. So it is the right direction imo, just needs some additional touches.
Sorry not sorry, tanks should not be "90"-100% "self sufficient".
Why tf are we devolving. feels like going bck to classic
This is why I love having my cousin tank on his Prot War. We know we the other works in their role and we communicate very well with each other. People really do forget the fact that all tanks and healers are different and that knowing how the other person plays is super helpful. Thats why when I do pug tank I like to make it is obvious as possible what Im going to do so im not leaving the healer guessing at least
in many ways the aug fix is easy, just make it not buff tanks and healers. i know there is a lot more to it, but that would at least fix the need for them ramping with these changes.
online dating of tank & healer OMG! it's the perfect analogy!
Good I want to be needed by tanks again
They are making healing and tanking harder.....because the one thing you see in LFG is too many tanks and healers....
The healers being damage dealers is why I quit healing and ultimately why I quit playing World of Warcraft altogether. I'm a healer. Not a DPS. Then on top of that, my preferred spec which is great for healing often wouldn't get invited because it's not very good at DPS. Like oh ok, cool.
Honestly haven't looked back since, and I won't return if they revert these changes, but it appears they're not going to revert them anyways.
I want to play a healing and support role. I don't think healers should do *a single point of damage*. I think that if they are, Blizzard has balanced healing poorly.
But the game isn't designed for me, that much I'm well aware of, so I just stopped playing.
But from my perspective, Blizzard is completely cooked, has no idea what a proper trinity is, and keeps changing things to be worse. I don't understand it. Everyone that I've ever played with that heals feels the way I do as well. I really can't wrap my head around why they think healers would want to be judged by damage meters. It's the dumbest most nonsensical change I think I've ever seen Blizzard make, and I've seen them make some bizarre changes. I'm a healer. That's it. I heal. I support. That's it. That's the role I signed up for.
And I think it's just made worse for me by the fact that DPS rarely ever do a fucking thing apart from DPS. They only interrupt stuff if you fucking yell at them. They'll stay in the fire even if you yell at them. So we're already in a position where DPS roles that have support abilities don't use their support, which is then pushed onto me as a healer-- which I'm actually completely fine with. I'd be OK with them stripping all those support abilities from DPS players and pushing those completely onto healers so that we're strictly healing / support. Then the smoothbrain DPS could just be smoothbrain DPS, and I'd probably hate them a bit less. But nah, everything is convoluted, everyone does a bit of everything, the "roles" are completely scuffed, and it makes me just hate the fucking game and the idiots that decided to change the trinity for shits and giggles.
Again, I've never met a healer that actually likes this stuff. They exist, surely, but I've never personally known one.
I don't actually think pulling smaller is a problem per se, it diversifies the builds people can play and favors classes and builds that are great on smaller numbers of mobs
That is the thing for dps that does not matter the specs with uncapped aoe is best no matter what the pull size.
Blizzard failed to do their aoe rework.
Yeah sure, if you're completely ignoring the fact that there's a timer.
No offense but that only works on mid keys. If you want to time 16s and above, you gotta pull big and time your pulls to sync with your dps cds
@@XAn0nymousX0 dude its just another way to limit how high you can go. If you die when you add a third pack you gotta you gotta find a way to speed up your two-pack pulls. If you cant do either, well, you cap out at 16s
Nobody says the highest keys timed have to be 19s? Its an infinitely scaling system, its just a matter of what limits you. And I find it interesting if the biggest pull size is 3 to 6 mobs for a change
It's become very *Difficult* compared to what it was.
I enjoy prot paladin, and it's a constant struggle to stay alive. Tough.
ON beta just doing normal, or heroic dungeons is perfectly fine.
But second you jump into the overtuned M+ it's night and day.
Honestly raids may be better of an idea.
If the Tank dies, it's the Healers fault.
If the Healer dies, it's the Tanks fault.
If DPS dies, it's their Own fault.