Fan Service Fatigue: Doctor Who and the Cameo
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- Опубліковано 6 кві 2023
- Today, I'll discuss Fan Service Fatigue, using Doctor Who as my primary example.
What is the difference between a Character Return and a Cameo, which is better?
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to be fair “room full of companions with totally interchangeable dialogue” is far from a scene specific issue in Chib’s era
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Room full of interchangeable characters with interchangeable dialogue, in fact.
Couldn’t disagree more.
Agreed.
@@wardjunior1450 Idk man, The Five Doctors treated the companions as quite interchangeable.
Josh Snares: "How did Mel get back to Earth?"
Big Finish: "Add that to the 6 box-set arc category."
‘with Nicholas Briggs as the Daleks’
That‘s for RTD to solve.
Lift off a zingo
First and foremost, I like to mention that The Power of the Doctor was part of the Centenary Celebration and so partially a look back to Doctor Who's past, so it made sense that there are a lot of cameos in it and I was really happy with Guardians scene as it gave the Classic Doctors the justice they were lacking in the 50th. Plus we finally got our long awaited Ian Chesterton return. (Huge respect to William Russell that he agreed to do this as he was suffering from early dementia at the time of filming and could've easily, therefore, decided not to do it)
Secondly, the opening montage features a picture of Tom Welling which is not exactly right for the argument you're making at that point as it was part of the Crisis crossover which was all about the cameos.
Twice Upon A Time was great in my eyes. I not only loved the 1st Doctor return, but it suited the story so well. Forcing 12 to have to face rejecting regeneration from the outside looking in was what was needed for this weathered adventurer to accept change once again and become a new man (or woman) at least on more time. Without the 1st there I feel the finale missing something huge in the narrative.
I feel that Capaldi got a great chance to shine one last time in The Doctor Falls so I didn't mind him sharing the spotlight in Twice Upon a Time but I did find it very disappointing that Jodie wasn't given enough to do in Power of the Doctor, to the point that I really wished we could see her in one of the upcoming specials and given a better shot under RTD.
If you didn’t get any pleasure from seeing 98 year old William that’s very sad - it was a miracle he could appear at all.
Personally, I think the references to the Brig in death in heaven was still a nice homage to his character, I loved the subtle detail of the cyberman who was presumably the Brig having the black handles signifying the cyber leader role - and the painting on the plane of the Brig makes sense and feels deserved as it causes some sentimental dialogue between the doctor and Kate as well as making sense to exist in that plane. However, if they ever deepfaked him in a new episode, that would be beyond disrespectful and completely out of line.
My headcannon for Kate saying "Five rounds rapid" is that she was asking for 5 quick rounds of drinks after a difficult ordeal
fanservice should be seen as the icing on the cake, but nowadays you see a lot more cakes make entirely of icing
Personally I really enjoyed everything about Power of the Doctor, and the cameos at the end worked to establish the common through line of Jodie's doctor, which was put well in Yaz's line to the master, when she explains how this doctor is all about the legacy of her friends. Also the fact that Graham is instrumental in creating the group fits really well with his character. He is your community minded cute boomer, and I love it to bits. To me the companions in that scene represent the fans, and indeed the people who have been involved in the production of the series for the last 60 years. We all share our stories about the doctor together and our adventures with the doctor can help us form our approach to life.
Especially given that TPOTD is the last publicly funded/owned episode of Doctor Who, I think it's quite fitting.
Jodie's a terrific actress and in other circumstances she could've been a terrific Doctor, but the people calling the shots didn't have her back at all. I'm hoping some day Big Finish will rectify that because she deserves a better shot of it as they gave Colin before her, but the fact of the matter is that she shouldn't have needed a second shot and she wouldn't have done if her TV run hadn't been so horrendously mismanaged.
Me personally I would of preferred for Paul Mcgann to be the transitional Doctor as it would be great to see him in action in a few live stories rather than the Movie and that regeneration short. Having Tennant back was like "oh how predictable, of course it had to be Tennant".
When it come to fan service I tend to cringe as most times it's just shoehorn into the story or only happens on anniversary stories. Going off topic I often wondered why the 5th Doctor always said "Brave Heart" I just thought it's his thing - until I watched The Abominable Snowmen and the 2nd Doctor comes out and says "Brave Heart Victoria" my ears picked up and went "Hang on did he just say what I thought he just said".
Yes "The Expanded Universe"...... Enough said on that matter 😂
By the time I started watching Doctor Who in the early 1980s, in the USA, the PBS station that broadcast the show didn't yet have the funds to buy episodes of Peter Davison and they weren't showing stories that were considered incomplete in the BBC archives, so I first saw Tom Baker's full run twice, and, eventually part of Peter Davison. Then they went back to Jon Pertwee starting with "INFERNO".
When they got to "The Three Doctors", and Patrick Troughton says the Lethbridge Stewart, *_"Care for a jelly baby?"_* mine and my younger brother's chins crashed through the floor!
@@themirrorsofmymind I know lol my jaw did the same with the brave heart comment - I didn't know about the jelly baby being said by the 2nd doctor mind blown. I do love classic Who as with every rewatch you find something new you hadn't heard or seen the last time you watched it. I mean The Image of the Fendhal I always felt had a very 3rd Doctor vibe to it even though it being a 4th Doctor story. It has all the vibes and story plot of a 3rd Doctor story. Maybe it's just me lol. Unless it was an old script which got updated as I know there are a few stories which were written for one Doctor and never got used and then updated for another Doctor. Like The Claws of Axos was originally plotted out for the 2nd Doctor entitled "The Gift" it got shelved but was then reworked on for the 3rd Doctor as The Claws of Axos....... I would of loved to seen the Axons in the Troughtons era they would work well in B&W. There was a 1st Doctor story planned and written called "The Slide" which was ultimately rejected but turned into a 6 or 7 part BBC radio play in the 60s but the Doctor and his companions had all be renamed - however, the story was reworked on and became Fury from the Deep. Same as The Krotons which was originally penned for the 1st Doctor but was scrapped and then reworked on for Troughton....I find it fascinating, I would love for someone to get the scripts or the story outlines or detailed plots and turn them into missing script dramas on say Big Finish.
In the later 80s Peter Davidson said he'd be interested in coming back for a 2nd round in 10/20 years
Big Finish did a great work.
In regards to Twice Upon a Time specifically I think the core idea of the Doctor, already regenerating, meeting another incarnation and as a result of that experience reflecting upon the journey they themselves are about to take into their unknown future is a brilliant idea. A Doctor Who special is long enough to well service two or more characters without either overshadowing the other. The problem I've always had with that episode is that it really doesn't deliver on that premise, and acts more as a goofy pantomime runabout. David Bradley bringing the first doctor to our screens for Capaldi's final outing isn't what I consider to be the problem, but rather the integration of his character and the execution of ideas that the episode seemed only capable of vaguely gesturing towards.
I think the same is true of Power of the Doctor, although in my opinion it lands even further away from a respectable execution even than Twice Upon a Time. A Doctor given the chance to sit in a mental space talking to manifestations of their previous selves to reflect on their inevitable passing, or to put their tenure into perspective, or anything of that nature could have been absolutely wonderful, and could have contributed to Jodie's story rather than eating away from it. The problem is that the cameos and references in that story don't contribute to her existing journey, but rather add a whole new aspect that must then also be given time and addressed.
Past companions being hallucinated by Davison in Caves of Androzani could have been meaningless fan service too, but it wasn't because the purpose served by the presence of those characters is immediately apparent in the scene, and they don't over stay their welcome. They are simply a part of an experience the Doctor is having. They're not a yippee moment but they inform the audience's understanding of emotions of the Doctor with well placed use of characters they are familiar with.
"When should a character outlive the actor who played it?" is an ironic question to ask about *_Doctor Who!_*
I've been frequently delighted by moments of call backs and "fan service," but truly they can be done well or done poorly. The best ones don't cramp or hinge the story, such that for a new viewer who doesn't get the reference the story still makes perfect sense. And for the old fan there is a moment of recollection and recognition. You could be a new viewer and watch Gridlock and find a self contained story. But if you know The Macra Terror there's a special little pleasure waiting for you. Now I loved Twice Upon a Time, I think it's among the best episodes ever, but if it was the first story you ever saw most of it would be meaningless and confusing. Still loved it though.
Basically, however, I can't have Who fatigue when they're only giving us a couple of episodes a year!
Tbf if TUaT is your first story you would expect to be confused as it's the last episode of a 10 series long show that's been on air for 12 years
@@lucasdolding6924 Yes. Mostly in agreement with everything you say, except the time between The 10th Planet and Twice Upon a Time is more like 50 years (!) 😮
My issue with it was more that the interactions between the Fifth Doctor and Tegan, and Seventh and Ace showed up how little real chemistry there was between 13 and her companions.
Yet if you watch Whittaker and Gill during interviews out of character they have a really good spark between them, that never once came across onscreen.
I do think that you're right that Power of the Doctor overshadowed Whittaker's final episode. It was a great celebration of Doctor Who, and I think it was a great Centenary special. But it wasn't a great regeneration story.
However, I will defend that scene with the companions at the end. The idea of the Doctor's previous companions getting together and sharing their experiences is a beautiful idea, and I think it mostly worked. I'll agree that Mel probably shouldn't have been there, and it probably should have been Martha instead, but I can overlook that because of how cool of an idea it was.
I don't think there's anything wrong with cameos, but I do agree that the frequency of cameos we get these days is making them not very special.
Me when Josh Snares uploads: 😄
Me when Nyssa uploads: 😨
I think it's interesting comparing PotD's Companion Support Scene to EoT's "10's last ride" montage. The montage is loaded with characters (one of whom is the protagonist of a different show!) but each one either follows up on an older episode (the Granddaughter of Joan from Human Nature/Family of Blood, Alonso from Voyage of the Damned), closes loose threads on prior companions (like, unfortunately, Mickey and Martha), or to provide a thematic closure to how the first RTD era began (with Rose on New Year's), but it all feeds into the culmination of the Tenth Doctors character arc of learning to truly cherish everyone he meets. The Companion Support Group, in contrast, is just a grab-bag of whoever they could convince to show up that day all speaking quite vaguely about their time with the Doctor that seems to only exist as a meta-commentary on the show itself and provide a pop for audiences old enough to remember the characters.
I so want a reboot of the First Doctor and his companions with David Bradley as the Doctor, Claudia Grant as his granddaughter, Jamie Glover as Ian Chesterton, Jemma Powell as Barbara Wright, Robin Varley as Ben Jackson and Ellie Spicer as Polly Wright.
I would argue Twice Upon A Time doesn't do any disservice to Capaldi because the Series 10 finale was his final outing, and TUAT serves as a swan song for his era and the Moffat era in general. And also, you know, there's only 2 extra characters plus Bill and unlike TPOTD, Capaldi isn't dead for half of the story. Even still, TUAT does give Capaldi something to do with the 12th Doctor not wanting to regenerate, Jodie gets very little to do in her final outing alongside it having an extremely crowded cast
Mel was a step too far but personally I think the Ian cameo was appropriate. It shows just how long the doctor has been basically abandoning their old friends which keeps in theme with the episode. Plus I’d rather have Ian back for a line of dialogue than never see him again, it’s not like William Russel would’ve been able to do more. As a doctor finale Power of the Doctor is bad, as a “the BBC can’t find a new producer this might be the final episode” I think it’s as good as it could’ve been.
What do you think about the classic series’ cameos? Things like Ian and Barbra’s cancelled appearance at the end of the Massacre.
I disagree with your characterization of the Doctor abandoning old friends, at least in the context of this specific support group. Ian, Jo, Tegan, Mel, Graham, and Dan all stopped traveling with the Doctor of their own accord. Kate only interacted with The Doctor in her role at UNIT, so she was not a travelling companion. And if she keeps working at UNIT, she is likely to see the Doctor again. That only leaves Ace and Yaz, who I think you could accurately say were abandoned. So only two of the nine people in this group were left by the Doctor, instead of the other way around.
There is a rumour Mel will appear in the RTD2, so maybe that's why she's there...
@@stevenricks1703 the entire point of the episode is that the doctor moves on from people and doesn’t look back. We see how it affects Ace and Tegan, along with Yas beginning to worry about it. Yes most the people in the group chose to leave but the doctor never visited or saw them again onscreen. It’s more of an emotional abandonment.
ha ha - you used my "Five rounds rapid" meme! I do have another Brigadier meme from "the Three Doctors" as well.
I tend to agree with the over use of cameos in DW, though it's also clear that in the newer period there's an idea of "inevitable coincidence". The 10th and Donna were "fated" to meet (and yes, manipulated by a mad Dalek to do so) and Clara was destined to meet the Doctor and become a companion (as manipulated by Missy). I think with the Brigadier's family you could make the same claim, even if - at the moment - there's no explanation about why that would be.
The connections with the older continuity were always there from "Rose" onwards because, well Autons and Daleks. But it was confirmed and sealed with the appearance of Sarah Jane in the 10th 2nd series. I thought "The Power of the Doctor" was extremely silly, and - for reasons I didn't quite understand at the time - was angry when the Doctor regenerated into Tennant (again). Personally I thought it threw away the potential of the Master & CyberLords for silly jokes, and seemed way too rushed as a finale for Jodi's Doctor. Unlike you, I was quite pleased that Ian Chesterton made an appearance. I've been watching DW since the early 60s so yes!
Josh makes the best content
I could not disagree with you more if I tried. To see Ian Chesterton again was a dream come true for me, having grown up with Hartnell's Doctor. William Russell is 98 years old and has Alzheimers. Just to see him appear again brought joy back to the show, as did Katy Manning. PLEASE don't rain on our parade. I am usually fascinated by what you say, even if your missing episode documentary was full of errors, but on this occasion I don't like your comments and I disagree with them. Jodie's era was awful enough without you criticising the one thing that made me love The Power Of The Doctor.
Well my day has been ruined knowing William Russel is suffering with Alzheimer’s. Chesterton doesn’t deserve this!
I feel like POTD should have been a two parter. Part 1 would be the Centenary special with all the cameos and fan service, and part 2 would focus on Jodie and the regeneration.
Re: the constant references to the Brigadier, I think that not bringing him back to the main show once was one of Davies' (and to a lesser extent, Series5!Moffat's) few major missteps, and I think now that it's impossible to bring Nick Courtney himself back the showrunners have felt the need to try to make up for that mistake.
Cyber-Brig was not the way to do it, though.
RTD tried bringing him in a few times but he was never available
I felt the fan service really worked in 12's era. Moffat's writing style is perfect for natural inclusions of nostalgia and 12 as a character fit well in an environment of nostalgia. I feel the use of fanservice towards the end of series 10 particularly in it's finale, and epilogue, serves as a kind of love letter to the franchise, and it's history, it feels like a conclusion that's showing off the past specifically because of how excited it is to move forward, excited that it got to continue this history and this tradition.
The Jodie era, post series 11 however, feels a lot different. I have a LOT of complaints with series 11, however I will praise it for not overdoing any nostalgic elements. Series 12 on the other hand, feels reactionary. The BBC saw the negative reaction to series 11, and threw most of its good elements out the window in favour of trying to really overdo it with the fanservice. and Tbh i say the bbc specifically, because based on the fact this is also around the time the BBC leaned HEAVILY into RTD era nostalgia baiting with the expanded media, I doubt Chibs is responsible.
But yeah, from 2020 onwards, the franchise has been in fanservice overdrive, and I feel the very mixed reaction to Tenant returning is a symptom of that. Because Tenant already felt VASTLY overrepresented in expanded media, sometimes overshadowing the Incumbent doctor in some respects. And although again I can complain about the quality of Chibs era till the sun comes up, I still stand by the fact it's unfair, and the fact that the 60th will likely be damaged by the fact we've kind a already been doing what anniversary years are supposed to do, FOR YEARS already. Something we're already seeing in the extremely mixed reactions to all the returns we're getting. Ironically, the only year we haven't been flooded with fanservice in the last decade, was the 55th anniversary year.
I feel like you sum it up perfectly.
The thing that cheesed me off about Sarah's return was. She CHOSE to leave. She WASN'T abandoned. Twice Upon A Time's 1st doctor was an assassination of who that character actually was.
At least the Doctor returned Sarah to the right year and the right country at least. By the Doctor's standards aiming for Croydon, 1980 and ending up in Aberdeen, 1980 is a fairly good result, its not like he dropped her off in Brazil, 1880 or China, 2080. She was never bitter towards the Doctor for it before _School Reunion_ , I've no idea why Toby Whithouse put that in and why Helen Raynor didn't take it out.
As for _Twice Upon a Time_ ...... that wasn't just a character assassination, that was a full-on character _annihilation_ .
Have you seen "The Hand of Fear"? Sure, Sarah rants about wanting to go home, but when The Doctor gets the message from Gallifrey *_he tells her she can't go with him!_* How is that choosing to leave? (The actress may have decided to go, but the character, as written, wanted to stay.)
I think Tegan has the character assassination. Never feel the character.
@@tenacious3911 Please, the first Doctor try to kill a caveman.
@@mayotango1317 I think they’re referring more to the 1st Doctor being characterised as an overt misogynist.
Granted, the 1st doctor exhibited plenty of old fashioned values during his tenure (the line about Polly dusting the TARDIS would’ve fit right in), but Moffat kinda turns that aspect up to 11 for the sake of comedy, to the point where 1’s other core character traits feel a little neglected or understated.
This was the same debate that was had over holography used to have deceased musical icons not only return for duets, but entire concerts.
Also, I feel that our Doctor was not only cheated by their last episode, but even more so their regeneration scene. It was played less as the proper farewell to a brilliant era (imo) and more a sigh of relief that it was over by shoving much loved Tennant (I love him too, just…) in our faces.
They could have just given us the Meta Crisis doctor for the 3 episodes. This feels very pointless, unless we're getting an old doctor mini series between each new one now. If that's the case, I'm okay if 10 is first as long as the rest follow.
Lots of things to think about, Josh. Thank-you.
Appreciate your opinions Josh. I personally enjoyed Power of the Doctor and Twice Upon a Time. I agree though certain actors definitely could have done with more substance/screen time.
Really interesting video josh
Another great video from you, but one line you mention (The character of Kate being created to honour the Brigadier) is completely wrong and shows that you need to watch 1995's Downtime and its 2004 sequel Dæmos Rising (both from Reeltime).
i've seen Downtime many times, I should have said re-introduced! You couldn't pay me to suffer through Daemos Rising again though haha
@@JoshSnares It was the idea of making Kate the new Brigadier is more the way of honouring her father.
I only watched Daemos Rising once as well. It started ok but the end with the dreadful CGI...!
Absolutely loved this video, Josh. Very embarrassing that Jodie and Capadi weren't the main focus in their final episodes. I know fan service/call backs bring in viewers but on re-watches you actually realise that these episodes aren't for us WHO fans, it's for the general public to watch it to pass the time at Xmas or something 🙄🙄🙃 I know NuWho is a reboot of the original show that got cancelled but I wish we would cut down on the cameos/callbacks because it takes you out of the episode or story they are trying to show. The Doctor can go to the past and future yet all we keep doing is going to the past 🙃🙃 I hope RTD spaces out his upcoming callbacks in the new era and not all crammed together to make us "happy" 😩
No, Capaldi had a great finale.
Jodie was a stupid Mary Sue.
@@mayotango1317 the doctor is a mary sue. They always have been since at least pertwee. If anything 13 was the most flawed, shes a pretty terrible friend to all her companions and its never really addressed in the stories.
I'll be honest I wasn't just meh at William Russell's cameo I was angry.
In my opinion Ian is probably one of the most important characters in Doctor Who.
Him and Barbara taught The Doctor to be a good person.
And the last time we saw him he was saying he'd rather risk death than keep travelling with The Doctor.
This is a character I was *begging* to come back.
And what does he say:
"Sorry did you say her?"
Seriously?!
This is probably the last time he'll be in Doctor Who and that's it...
This is a complex issue, and I feel like I’m not super consistent on it. I definitely love the character returns that drive the plot such as The Simm Master in S10 or Sarah in S2. I really didn’t care for Tegan or Ace in Power especially because it felt like they were only there for their greatest hits moments. I actually am totally a fan of the fan service line callbacks. I wouldn’t want them every week, but I do enjoy them for some odd reason.
I couldn't agree with you more here Josh, I remember when Power Of The Doctor was about to come out people wanted to watch it just because Ace and Teagan were returning and not because it was the BBC's centenary special/13's regeneration story. If the UNIT series is actually going to be a thing I am just hoping that the Brig's face isn't plastered everywhere for people to go "look! A painting of The Brigadier!"
Your comments certainly made reassess Capaldi and Whitaker's swan songs! They kind of remain guilty pleasures, however, and the gathering of companions did at least open up the opportunity for them to act as future Consultants to UNIT, which might allow for those meatier storylines like School Reunion. Fingers crossed 🤞
I think TUAT suffers from essentially being a story Moffat didn't think he had to do, him and Capaldi were planning on leaving with The Doctor Falls. It's still an interesting episode, though, I think, and the meta-message of Doctor Who changing and growing is a great one to lead into the Chibnall era with - although with the downside of that Hartnell bastardisation. If anything, I like how subdued it is compared to Power of the Doctor or The End of Time.
Power of the Doctor is a fucking mess of fanservice, but it feels like fanservice of the whole 59 years, and that makes it feel special to me. Ace should've been the main returning character, because Tegan didn't really get to do much. I also think the concept of Docaholics Anonymous really needed a bit more time to breathe, but was really cool. I like to imagine Yaz going home and tragically conversing with her hologram-chip Doctor, pretending it's not all over.
These are exactly my thoughts. When everything is trying to cater to fans in the same way, it gets stale! It’s been over 3 years since the last Doctor Who episode which didn’t feature a recurring villain or actor! And it’s just boring at this point. Like, wow, she said the brigadier line in all the gifs. Wow, Ace has the baseball bat from that ONE story 35 years ago. Wow, the Sea Friends are back as generic baddies. It’s so surface level that it seems closer too a checklist rather than something based in actual joy for the show’s history. I really hope that once the 60th is over, we stop focusing so much on “fanservice” and instead focus on giving the fans what the actually want. Good stories. And we can wait 5 years for the next anniversary special.
Meeting the Brigadier’s grandfather is a good concept. For a Jon Pertwee regeneration, by Capaldi that well had well and truly dried.
I think I’ve kind of gotten over the “yippie moment” in general, but I was so happy to see William Russell, even very briefly.
Couldn't agree more. Would have liked you to discuss The Caretaker here. That is one cameo that made me very emotional! I think it's extremely difficult for fans to see actors that don't neatly fit with continuity and that includes the age factor unfortunately. The Bradley appearance was just plain awful.
Agreed with all your points 100%, especially with the Capaldi point, as my favourite new who Doctor I definitely feel that he deserved more as a final episode as opposed to a questionable 1st doctor character change. In my opinion, the cyberman two parter was defo the perfect story to end on. (and the less said about the cyber-brig the better....)
Well, the bigger issue - as I understand it - is that both Moffatt and Chibnall weren’t expecting to do either of those specials. But because the next team wasn’t ready to go, it fell to them to tack on one more story to their tenures. But the whole point of Power of the Doctor was to celebrate the BBCs centenary, so it was going to be full of references. Yes, it’s sad that both of those end up being the final outings for the past two Doctors.
To be fair I quite liked series 11 because it tried to be its own thing (unlike the rest of Jodie's era which relied on returns, callbacks and references). I'm happy to give Power of the Doctor a pass because at the end of the day it was the centenary special.
While I hope for the foreseeable they focus on the new cast and adventures, if any character were to return Martha fits the best in terms of pure fan service, given her ties to Torchwood and Unit, it makes sense to have her appear compared to someone like Rose or John Simm's Master. Plus she does have untapped story potential, unresolved tension between the Doctor and her.
Plus it can explore torchwood a bit more considering alot of fans might not listen to the audio dramas or read comics
Media has become about 'Engagement' to 'Content', largely not about art, broad audience or not.
I agree Josh-it turns into Dimensions in Time.
Its a fair point, I know Twice Upon A Time is a pretty hated episode in general, Capaldi got his last hurrah in the series finale then a Christmas special got thrown in after. I get that. But I know what you mean, 14 will undoubtedly end without a last hurrah but he is one himself. 15 deserves better! At least 11 got the 50th as his penultimate then got his last episode, if there is an anniversary they want to celebrate during Ncuti's era it can't be his final episode!
No, The Timeless Children episode is so hated.
TUaT is definitely not a hated episode, it has its detractors but I'd say it has more fans than not.
I don't think Twice Upon A Time is exactly hated
Twice Upon a Time isn't hated overall but in any ranking of festive specials or regeneration stories it always comes low down! Personally rating regeneration stories it would be penultimate and festive it would be roughly top of the bottom third (not written them all out before)!
I'm just glad we got that sweet Mel content the world has been clamoring for since 1987. But seriously, I think Doctor Who is trapped within its somewhat narrow continuity now. The revival has now been on for so long that 2005+ now counts as nostalgic content. The show is feeding off of itself now, with ever diminishing returns in my opinion. I think until the show is wrenched away from the very small group of industry friends who basically own the show, we're just going to be watching (or not watching) them take victory laps with all the greatest hits. Doctor Who is safe and predictable, which probably makes for good marketing, but diminishes the franchise's ability to be anything truly innovative.
This video reminded me of when David Quantick said 'Pop will eat itself.' Swap 'pop' with 'Doctor Who' and I think that describes how the show is now.
Quantick has updated the sentiment which I think suits Doctor Who even better. As before, swap 'pop' with 'Doctor Who'.
'...the fact is pop has done more than eat itself, it’s eaten itself and thrown itself up and then eaten that up and been sick again and so on, like the dog after it’s been at some very tasty margarine. In the year 2022, every single aspect of popular music has been recycled, upcycled, uploaded, downloaded, downed and dissected. Every record sounds like another record and all the ones that don’t sound like another record are actually made of that other record.'
6:00 The Doctor saying "Intruder window" in _The Sontaran Stratagem,_ though maybe -whatsername Skinny- Diana Goddard told him the joke while van Statten had him roped up in _Dalek._
I like really deep cut fan service such as Beep the Meap.
Good points!
The Guardians of the Edge was more than enough in terms of fan service. It was fun to see old Doctors and what they see when they regenerate, but anything beyond that was stepping too far. It was Jodie's story and she deserved better for her last outing as 13 regardless of how you feel about her Doctor.
Hey Josh, I recently wrote some of my own Doctor Who stories, which I hope to film and share 1 day. 1 of these is a 4 part episode called Susan (you might be able to see where this is going) The story has the doctor and his current companion traveling to future earth where by chance they meet a regenerated Susan Foreman who has lived a happy and long life.
In the episode I didn't focus as much on her as the story and maybe with some rewrites I can add more to what she does in the story but what I have so far is that she joins the Doctor again as a companion as if nothing happened and they just picked up where they left off, but at the end of the episode the Doctor asks if she wants to come with them and she decides to stay at home and I think its also assurance to the doctor that yes he did make the right choice by letting Susan stay there and settle down.
but since you made this great video on cameos and your a huge 1st doctor fan I figured I would ask you, do you think that this story is a good maybe not finish but a good character return?
The "expanded universe" moment. Lol it gave me life 😂
To me the companion cameos are justified in that they are a support group for each other, they have been on these incredible adventures with their respective Doctors and if they were to just discuss that with anyone who wasn’t a previous or current companion they would see them as crazy, I also think having prior incarnations of The Doctor return works because it wasn’t in person it was in their own mind even 8 said it while arguing with 7 saying ‘I am a manifestation of our consciousness I can wear what I like’ it’s also how I think we are going to first see Ncuti Gatwa’s 15th Doctor in that we first see him manifest with The Guardians Of The Edge
You perfectly put into words what I've been struggling with surrounding this issue for a while now, thank you! Particularly the seeming lack of respect for the actors, who really must be feeling more and more like circus animals. What's the point of bringing them back for just 5 seconds of screen time? Hardly seems fulfilling
And don't get me started on deepfakes of deceased actors, or even deepfakes that make actors younger...
Problem with Power of the Doctor is that the returns are very shallow and don’t really add much to the plot (yes, Ace included), when you compare it to School Reunion or Death of the Doctor both Tegan and Ace’s appearances pretty much have no depth at all to them and it’s crazy how they barely interact with Thirteen. And regardless of how people feel he’s written, at least the First Doctor’s appearance in Twice Upon a Time serves some purpose and furthers Twelve’s development.
Also I kinda disagree re: Capaldi’s last appearance. He gets his big moments in World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls whilst Twice Upon a Time is more an epilogue. But at least he gets to be central to his final episode, whereas Whittaker is sidelined for appearances and is “dead” for most of it; it feels more like a final farewell for Sacha Dhawan rather than Jodie herself.
Whilst I don’t agree with every point you make, I do think that Nostalgia Fatigue is real and with No Way Home being so big I feel like the MCU (and other franchises) are going to lean into Fan Service even more instead of making good films on their own merit.
Great video. 😊
+1 about Twice Upon a Time. World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls is the real epic where the Doctor was killed, and Twice Upon a Time feels like The End of Time ending where Tenth visits all of his companions and kinda accepts his regeneration.
That's also how I feel about WEAT/TDF.
@@igrok__1 Yeah it's because of this I'm more forgiving of Twice Upon a Time, especially since it was a very late insertion
it would have been awesome for Ian to say 'London 2022!' .
I haven't even seen 'Power of the Doctor', except for the clips on the Doctor Who UA-cam account, BUT I think the Ace and the Tegan scenes are wonderful - Tegan's face when she says "I've missed you..." and The 7th's face when he says "We're better than that, we're 'ace'.." Those scenes had relevance, emotional weight, they added to the story of companions and incarnations in a way that was rewarding for Classic fans [as well as New]. Likewise Colin Baker's 6th appearance where he was a lot more 'wise' and empathic, rather than like someone playing bagpipes [badly] every time he appeared or spoke [bad 6th writing, directing, NOT bad acting - Colin Baker is a wonderful person as himself, and was brilliant at what the show asked him to do, much against his ideas for the character]. HOWEVER, the 'group therapy' session was awful, excruciating... Firstly, who cares what Bradley Walsh says or does, secondly why does everyone have to awkwardly nod and grin [eugh], thirdly the silence of the scene is awful - why aren't people excited [after what they've been through]..? It seems more like an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting - or a cross examination to find out who just farted. What cameo dialogue there was, was awful too, having Chesterton confused by mention of a female Doctor - while understandable - was just clunky and awkward. The Doctor is the Doctor and hardly needs referring to in terms of gender - the Doctor transcends all human physical values and could just as easily be a blue thing or a belly dancer - if it wasn't for the a/ the vanity of Rassilon and b/ the need for 'imprinting' a recongisable actor/actress as the Doctor in the viewer consciousness.
I enjoyed the old faces in The Power of the Doctor. I think it was a taster of the 60th where they can be expanded upon.
I must say I did Squee when seeing Ian again. But you are right. They were all interchangeable. I guess, at his great age, this was the only thing we could expect, but I wish it were different. And I can totally see what you mean about Mel being just Bonnie Langford the actor!
I think of 2 rules when it comes to fan service, first respect the viewers who made you successful and second respecting the source material. The first rule is respecting the viewers because without them you wouldn’t be here and it shows they respect you, and second is to show that the original is respected and honored.
Fan service in Doctor Who is often hit or miss. Outside of Big Finish audio stories or anniversary specials, it originally felt unique for previous Doctor incarnations/companions returning ie The Two Doctors or Mawdryn Undead. However there’s no denying recent Doctor Who fan service honestly feels like a disservice to both the fans and character if used improperly *cough cough* Twice Upon A Time first Doctor *cough*
4:50 💯Tom Baker as "The Curator" in _The Day of the Doctor_
Spot on Josh - got to be part of the story and add something to the narrative - otherwise just looks like an Actors' Equity meeting fused with an AA one. Sarah and K9's return were class efforts as was Jo's return via the SJAs. Would love - like many - a proper return for Susan & give her a chance to regen too - she's overdue for one! :) Would be fab and enable some exploration of her character and background in the future as well. I do enjoy the odd nods to the past but it's rarely been done right or has felt like an afterthought...Even props have suffered with that approach... "Oooh the kiddies love that sonic lets go with that and turn it into a magic wand instead..."
Same goes with the Spiderman movie, not only just cameos.
I don't believe the lines of diologue were interchangeable in the companion support group thing.
Ian said: "Sorry, did you say... Her?"
And yes, this is somewhat interchangeable, but it would make sense for the ojly companion in the room to have not been exposed to the idea of regeneration to say this. (If you don't count The Five Companions Big Finish story)
The next line is spoken by Mel- Having witnissed The Doctor change once during her travels, she asks; "How many Doctors are there?"
To which Jo, who has met the most Doctors, being Doctors #1, #2, #3, and #11, said-
"I think we're going to be here quite some time!"
actually Tegan has met doctors 1-3 and traveled with 4 and 5 AND saw 4-5 regenerate and Kate has met even more, including the war doctor that NO ONE else has ever seen, except Clara (and the less said about her the better!)
@@julieeverett7442 I'm refering to the 3 companions he was talking about- Ian, Jo, and Mel- The ones who only featured in that scene.
@@carealoo744 you said jo had met the most doctors, no she hasnt, but if you meant only the people in that scene, I guess so
@@julieeverett7442 ... Yes.
@@carealoo744well he is in for a long story.
These cameo comments are turning into a debate greater than the Great Cilantro Debate... Loving that we're getting great Josh videos once a week (and hate Cilantro)!
I think a big part of fan service is how often it's used. The occasional "oh hey I remember that!" Can be fun, but you can't run purely on fan service. I don't think Doctor Who has gotten to that point, and I also think it's worth noting Doctor Who's unique position in culture. There's not many shows or movies with quite the legacy Doctor Who has. It should be allowed to tap into that 60 years of history and use it. But that also raises the point of how well/ creatively that history is being used. We've seen these characters before, we've even seen some of these stories before, so give us a new twist! Give us something new out of the old. And I think that's kind of what it comes down to. There's a wealth of characters, plot points, settings and more from Doctor Who's past that can be used to tell new and exciting stories. Use Doctor Who's decades of material to craft new stories and ideas. I think that's what it comes down to. I don't mind the occasional "oh hey, the Doctor said that thing again about the polarity of the neutron flow", it's cute and harmless, but I also think we need to be careful to not go too crazy and fall into a trap of just recycled material.
What do you think of Peter Purves' concept he came up with for him to return to the show as Steven with the Doctor landing on the planet he left him in charge of now to discover Steven as a power-mad corrupt antagonist?
I don't think Kate Stewart said five rounds rapid specifically because she was trying to call back to her dad. I think she just said it because it was something that she felt she should say in the moment, and it just so happened to be something that makes the viewer go yippee lol
Interesting point of comparison The Five Drs vs The Day of the Dr. The first tried to include as many villains, companions, and Drs as possible, meaning little screen time for any, all done in the name of fan service, whereas The Day of the Dr was very restrained in how much it included, making those cameos it included more worthwhile in their "Yipee" moment, but the ultimate fan service story and how bad fan service can be is Dimensions in Time.
expanded universe… 😳😂
I think it's really funny that, long ago, a final episode for a Doctor was basically anything they could think of to kill the character convincingly and now it's like a whole eulogy. The character is going to return. You've still got your hero. The companions are a different matter. What the hell is Mel doing on Earth anyway?
Did Chibnall even review the circumstances of Mel's last onscreen appearance? I'd say 'no'.
@@pious83 Well he didn't review the last onscreen appearances of the Master or Gallifrey either and those were only a couple years before he was writing for them.
As always this was thoughtful and well communicated, Josh. The Brig climbing out of his grave as a Cyberman felt so exploitive to me that I have avoided rewatching that two part story. I found the entire concept of exploiting children's fear of the afterlife & death to be morally bankrupt. Blowing up the Brigadier was just the rancid cherry on the top of a very tacky story.
I agree 100%. Nothing but facts in this video
All very valid points. Ethics never goes hand in hand with business especially THESE days!! Money speaks louder that morals. 😞
I get where you're coming from with your feelings on this. I do however disagree with parts.
The bit that you pointed out in School Reunion is obviously the deeper way to go. But I really do love the "cameo" as you define it. I mean William Russell is now in the Guinness Book of World Records for that appearance.
Course there's the third category, the easter egg - like the reference to the Sensorites in 'Planet of the Odd'. To some extent can't they be lumped in with fan service?
I enjoy all three - it's just different levels of the same thing to me.
Also: Five Rounds Rapid. She could know by reading transcripts and logs of her dad's old missions. That one seems clear to me.
dunno about fanservice but what they're missing a trick doing is some kinf of spaceport scene with classic and modern alines in: I want to see a spaceport or something like the Star wars senate with Terileptils, Mentors, Alpha centuarians, Arcturans, Fomasi, Argolans Draconians, Vogans, etc as well as Judoon, Sycorax, Raifallappatorians, Pan-Babylonians, Ambassadors for the city state of binding light, etc
Of course I want more than a cameo, but honestly I'll just take anything at this point.
Also, I find it funny that this guy's videos for whatever reason refused to pop up in my recommended no matter what, but this one bothered to show up in my Google recommended haha
I absolutely agree with you.
I find that scene with The Brigadier as a Cyberman unforgivable and they went alittle too far with it i think they should had just left it be with "The Wedding of River Song" that he died and that was it.
Fan service is fine if it suits the plot of the story and not just done for the sake of it me growing up with Classic Who usually Doctors and Companions don't come back except anniversaries i feel NuWho should do the same while it is great having an old character back i don't think it's something they should get in the habit of while yes it's a time travel show but i do think it also needs to go forward and not go backwards and not look too deep into the past.
I enjoyed "The Power of the Doctor" but it should had just been Ace and Tegan because i feel the group thing could had been saved for the 60th.
I also agree Capaldi and Whittaker didn't get the high focus they should had got particulary considering it's their last story it should had only been about their Doctor's journey even though they are the same person i feel for the actors themselves should had been about their particular Doctors but to be honest this is no disrespect to David Bradley he's a great actor but i did not like his portrayal as The First Doctor they made him far "too" sexist which Hartnell is not and they also got him incorrect with the brandy because if you go back to "The Gunfighters" The First Doctor says he never touches alcohol.
For the deepfakes i personally wouldn't mind if they do it correctly with better and more advanced technology and of course permission from Hartnell's family i much rather that than a recast especially now that Disney is involved i can see them doing that.
The brandy is a medical tradition for calm the hurt.
I say give us cameos, we only have so much more time with these classic doctor's and companions before they retire or pass on.
Totally Agree with everything. It’s cool having fan service but it does always come at the cost of good story telling when it’s forced in
Having the Brigadeer's father being in Twice upon a Time would have made better sense had the Brigadeer been relevant to both the first and twelfth Doctor. Or at least one if them.
Oh, come on, it was great to see Ian back again! Bonnie.... well.....
The one that got away, for me, is Jamie. And I know all about The World Shapers or whatever it's called. It seems like a good send-off. But did it actually happen? The Two Doctors immediately undermines all the emotional investment we have in The War Games - and it's perhaps fortunate that, at the time, we wee youngsters were not in a position to judge that.
No, that was the CIA misions.
Yeah it was a shame for Jodie that she didn't get more of a spotlight in her finale but it was still a fun episode.
I am hopeful that the scene at the end of Power Of The Doctor was meant as a set up for something down the line. Maybe a spin off where former companions band together to solve mysteries or something with occasional appearances by random incarnations of The Doctor. As for deep fakes, I don't think it could happen on a BBC budget, but now they've partnered with Disney then it's certainly a possibility. I don't think they should bring someone back from the dead for the show though. Maybe if they were to just be making a cameo or something, then it wouldn't be so bad, but you'd not be getting a real performance from Hartnell, Troughton or Pertwee so what would be the point other than "hey, look what we can do".
I view cameos as welcome surprises, and actual character returns as "Wow, that would be great, but it's too much to hope for." Realistic expectations, take what you can get. In other words, yes: cameos ARE enough. You can have higher standards and expect more if you like, but it comes at the cost of perpetual disappointment.
As for Whitaker being overshadowed by other actors in her final story: to be fair, that was an issue every time Whitaker appeared with a guest star. She tends to get overshadowed a *lot* when good actors are on-screen with her.
I agree with most of your points. If character comes back, I want there to be a reason for it...you mentioned some of them already. If doesn't do anything to drive the story, further develop the returning character, etc, then I am very meh about these quick appearances. I remember watching the Five Doctors as a kid and thought it was cool that I got to see Doctors that I had not seen before, but even that episode hasn't aged well for me. With the 60th, I hope it is just David Tennant and Ncuti Gatwa... no others please.
I heavily disagree with your take on twice upon a time. To me , TUAT was Moffat saying goodbye to the franchise, and it uses its nostalgia to explore themes of growth and change, exploring how far this incarnation has come by contrasting them with a version of themselves from far into the past. Saying it's "not about them" overshadows the point of the fanservice in serving the narrative, something I think the capaldi era does wonderfully on a decent few occassions.
Yeah TUaT is done really well, and Gatiss being Brig's grandfather further works as the episode looking at the show's history and the adventures the Doctor will have after his first incarnation. It positions 12 in a way to reflect on his own selfishness of not wanting to regenerate, as he knows 1 needs to to become 12 and "do the things that [he does]" whilst he's similarly denying his future self of continuing which 12 needs to realise. It's much more than 'oh look it's the First Doctor that's cool', there's a lot narrative and character purpose behind his return. Moffat is a smart writer and he does put a lot of thought behind these things, yeah it probably started as 'wouldn't it be cool to have the First Doctor and current Doctor team up' but that can develop into a great story which it did.
your thinking all things about mel brush in my head like how she got back to earth
Josh
you bring up some great points, DC and Marvel is full of it, and some of is like.. "why" why does this or that need to be there, its like Henry Cavill's Superman cameo.. its just.. well yeah story for another time.
Adding to your point that Jodie wasnt the main focus in her final story, not only was she overshadowed by the previous Doctor actors and Companions, all you heard after the episode aired was about David Tennant, nothing really mentioned about Jodie at all to be honest. I still enjoyed the episode overall but I fully agree with your points in your video
Yeah well, everything always has to be about David Tennant since he's so overrated. Now he's back as a new incarnation for the 60th anniversary rather than returning as the 10th Doctor like before. Next thing you know it, Tennant fans will petition to have Tennant digitally replace all the other Doctors. Or reshoot the missing episodes just so he's in almost every episode. I liked him when I first got into Doctor Who, but after he left in 2010, everyone still obsessed over him while I gradually got tired of him.
Totally agree! For me, fan service is *usually* a symptom of decline.
“Talent pushes forward…”
I feel like Moffat’s era really overdid showing old footage of old doctors a LOT
Series 5: 11th hour, vampires in Venice, Vincent and the Doctor, the lodger
Series 6: That Ganger two parter (with four and ten voices)
Series 7: nightmare in silver, name of the Doctor, night of the Doctor, day of the Doctor,
Series 8: Deep Breath, Listen (War Doctor) and Death in Heaven (flashback of 11)
Series 9: 4 and 1 in missy’s speech during witches familiar, tenth Doctor and Donna in that Viking two parter, footage of War, 10 and 11 in that zygon two parter
Series 10: First Doctor in The Doctor falls and twice aupon a time., photo of all the doctors is husbands of river song
He really overdid referencing the past.