We had an extended discussion on character deaths in our Patreon Exclusive segment for thi episode - www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-extended-112081688?Link&
You guys always get angry or dislike episodes assuming the story never comes up again or characters are gone forever. Hopefully you’ll adjust your grades at the end of the series when you see the context of everything. And yes, I understand you gave this episode good scores, but It happens a lot and you did complain about things not meaning anything in this episode.
Clearly you weren't expecting an episode filled with war intrigue, political ambition, murder, passion, blood and revenge ... all the elements of a classic Klingon tale.
I noticed a mistake in the analysis, seems like you guys think Gowron poisoned Kempec, but it was confirmed that Duras poisoned him. You weren't paying attention to Dr. Beverly!
Bit of trivia you might be interested in: Michael Piller commented, "I killed K'Ehleyr. The original idea was about Worf's kid and bringing K'Ehleyr back, who was having a relationship with Duras. But when we started talking about how to make the story work, I'm the one who said she should die… You wanted to get to a place where Worf was going to take Duras apart, and there's no real good reason for him to do it unless she dies… he had it coming." Ron Moore added, "We love Suzie and that character, but it worked because you cared about her and we made an effort not to do it capriciously and for no reason, just to get her off the show so Worf wouldn't have to deal with her. I have pals on the show and they were upset. It took Worf's character in a different direction, which is sort of what we did with "Sins." Anybody who watches that episode is moved and outraged by the killing of K'Ehleyr. You're mad and you have that same need for vengeance that Worf does. If we've tapped into those feelings so when Worf goes back to his quarters and grabs that sword and the audience is screaming for Duras' head, then you've done it. You really had to do that scene where Picard calls Worf onto the carpet for what he did and puts it to him."
TA TREK 001: “So, I guess we’ll watch this Star Trek thing. But it’s just an ancient, cheesy, episodic show - it’s not like it has a lore and mythology we’ll ever be able to get truly invested in.” TA TREK 188: “Don’t do the scream. Don’t do the scream!”
This episode showed that TNG now had ongoing character arcs. Having K'Lar from season 2, the events from Sins of the Father in season 3, and now a new kid all centered around Worf. Plus being the start of Frakes' rise to power behind the camera this is a special episode. He is one of the top guest directors in Hollywood now.
Duras: "I'm the only one, Worf. I'm the only one who can prove your father's innocence. Kill me and you're a traitor forever." Worf: "Then that IS HOW IT SHALL BE!"
I knew this one would be a rollercoaster for you - the K'Ehleyr reveal, the Alexander reveal, the _Frakes_ reveal... and then, the scene I've been dreading ever since you put her as your favourite guest character and demanded to see her again.
Target Audience: " They never have stakes that are important and believable. We hate that." Star Trek: "Fine. We will kill an important character" Target Audience: " I hate that there is actually stakes in this episode"
This is the quintessential Klingon episode. It brings back K'Ehleyr, Duras, and K'mpec, and introduces Gowron, the bat'leth and the Vor'cha attack cruiser.
When I originally saw this episode, it blew my mind that not only did they kill off K'Ehleyr, but they actually let Worf be a Klingon and take his vengeance AND show him actually killing off Duras. And I appreciate the fine line Worf must tread as a Klingon and a Starfleet Officer. And it's always a pleasure to see the Gowrom owl-stare.
Worf killing Duras is one of those things that I bet would not have been allowed had TNG been a network show. And all that blood around K’Ehleyr for that matter.
@@silikon2 I feel like maybe it would as my childhood memories of the original "The Equalizer" include it getting fairly brutal, including blood, on occasion. And I think that was on a network before this series. And the 1980s Twilight Zone was at times more horror than the original.
@@ThomasReeves-s7u I’m pretty sure The Equalizer was scheduled as an adult show, so aired late, like 9 or 10PM. If TNG were aired like that, then maybe, but the show was not aired like an adult show.
@@silikon2 Oh okay. I got a bit mixed up and thought you meant it wouldn't be on network TV at any point. Yeah to some degree Trek, although certain aspects make this odd, was seen as a "family show." I think that's why they were leery of including homosexual characters until a bit later than networks. Although it is odd they had no problem with strident anti-religion statements and free-love planets.
I love the K’mpec scene that kicks this off. The brooding old Klingon leader, revealing the wine that had slow poisoned him and still drinking it because he knew his fate already.
This is like most of my family reunions. A few fights, poisoning or two, a couple of deaths, and the introduction of an unknown bastard kid. Yep typical old school Scottish family get-together
@shanepye7078 once took a bus ride from Colorado to Louisiana. Met this dude claiming to go meet a girl. At every damn stop he'd show us his knife collection. Dude had a bat'leth in his baggage. Was pretty cool but also unnerving he had so many knives. We all sighed in relief when he got off the bus. Still, it was a cool thing to hold in person.
One of the things that’s so great about this show is that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. It really builds a believable world. The way you guys are discussing the backstory to this really illustrates that. Callbacks aren’t just, “remember when this happened?” They are unresolved and ambiguous and have consequences.
It's funny that they got an actor that looks so crazy that you don't immediately assume the villain is Duras. Galron "the wild eyed"is one of my favorite secondary characters & presents an interesting type of Klingon, a Politician
A couple things about this episode, the writing and the guest stars. The fact that you currently (and many of us still) feel so badly about K'ehlar's death speaks to the quality of the character writing as well as the job the actress did portraying her. Watching this back along with you guys, I have realized that this season is about family, family, family and more family. I never realized that before. Trust me you aren't done yet either. There is so much to come. As far as this pushing things (Worf in particular) forward; this is a lynch pin that sets of a chain of events into motion that are continually felt for season, movies and series… (and I don't think that was an accident) strap in boys.
Just some military context, a Reprimand is the absolute lowest punishment that can be given for a service offence. It is literally “don’t do that again” written on paper. No major career implications over the long term. My impression is Picard was giving as much tacit approval as he could.
Do they HAVE •paper• at the time of TNG? (I'm trying to think of an instance of where we've actually seen paper on the show. Nothing comes to mind, but I'm sure it must be there. Picard would have some physical books in his personal collection.) Seriously, the clarification of what a 'reprimand' is, from you, was good to know. That Picard gave tacit approval after the fact, adds depth to this classic episode.
"I'm sorry, Mr. Worf, you might not have broken any Klingon laws, but you sure as hell broke one of ours. Murder is a thing in the Federation. I'm committing you to Tantalus Colony for rehabilitation, but be of good cheer! A fortnight under their neural neutralizer and you'll be right as rain! Right-right-right! Now, off you go!"
Yeah that pissed me of. Thats like a navy officer kills a foreign ambassador and the only punishment is a "dont do this again". In modern serialised TV there would be consequences for that, where Worf would miss a few episodes to stay in prison until he gets rehabilitated about 6 episodes later. But Picard seemed very very weak here.
Well a few episodes ago Picard disobeyed an order from an Admiral and returned a POW to his captures and nothing happened to him career wise. Starfleet is generally lax in consequences, it's amazing they keep such strict discipline.
@@paulanerruhrpott6188But the Klingons didn’t see it that way. To them it was a dual, which are allowed, and Duras agreed to dual. Duras even implicitly admitted to unaliving K’Ehleyr. It is a mild punishment (to say the least) but the Klingons might have been offended if Starfleet had strongly punished Worf.
This episode is one of those that could have profited from being a two-parter, would have loved to see more interaction between Worf and K'Ehleyr. Gowron is a fascinating new character! Also, great work by Frakes directing.
Goosebumps every time I see that scene with Worf entering the room, Weapon in hand to challenge Duras. And Duras's crew clearing the way when Worf announced that K'Ehleyr was his mate. Likely Duras's crew knew what he did. They also knew of Worf's discommendation. But despite all the conspiracy and treachery by Duras, apparently "Right of Vengeance" supersedes all that. Duras knew he had no way out of that. One of the best Worf-centric episodes in the entire show, imho.
If I remember that's the one thing a Klingon always keeps is the right to claim vengeance. Which is why certain Klingons dislike the times Worf takes a human approach and turns the other cheek when he has the right to fight
@@donovanbradford8231 Thats due to how the klingon honor code works, to deny vengeance is to say, at best, you didn't care about what happened (a lack of klingoninity), or at worst you are too cowardly to pursue justice. Its less a right to fight (modern human mindeset) and more a demand to fight.
During the scream, all I can focus on is Alexander running behind worf and standing perfectly still on his mark with hands at his sides, facing the wall.
@@DocMicrowavecompared to child actors of earlier seasons, absolutely. I think something must have been happening in the theory of teaching acting around this time. Child actors suddenly get a lot better
@fredcasdensworld that is an extremely bizarre claim. How did she do anything of the kind? She was just one of the not-great actors on Full House. What bar did she raise and how?
@@hunrahel The child actor who plays Alexander also played the newest and youngest child on Family Ties around this same time too, he wasn’t some random.
@@julianozaur444 always wished they got into that more with Worf. Only thing they mention is he loves Minsk for vacations. I can’t remember but I think it was for romantic ones too.
@@mjbull5156 true, but I think it was for Worf still in her own way. Making it a Russian thing makes Kaylar way deeper. Alexander Rosenko is such an eastern name.
@@mjbull5156 makes more sense the other way if you think about it. she rejected her klingon heritage, her kid's adopted grandparents are russian, she loves worf. Alexander Rozhenko.
When I watched it live I thought Worf was going to do something stupid line putting the blade right by his head. I was pleasantly surprised when he did what needed to be done
There's so much that happens in this episode, the return (and death) of K'Ehleyr, the return (and death) of Duras, the introduction of Gowron and his eyes, the introduction of Alexander, and Worf just straight up killing Duras is another step-up in the "no, Worf is not human, he is completely fine with killing someone for revenge" characterisation. Also, love the fact that the Klingons were just like "Yeah, no, that's reasonable under our laws. Everything is settled". I find that really funny for some reason. Edit: And while I agree that bringing back a character just to kill them off isn't always great writing, in this case I think it was necessary, because the story needed a catalyst that would push Worf to kill in vengeance, and you're only going to get that with a character he has a strong bond with, and I don't think that could have been done convincingly with a new character.
Less than two hundred years ago it was a fairly common practice even in the United States, depending on the locality. To so flippantly refer to a formally accepted duel to avenge a loved one as "cold-blooded murder" is such a myopic "current year" mindset that I would prefer to believe he's just misspeaking.
@@GenerateSilence I think it’s just apart of inherit bias in a current day. Duty and discomfort, just and righteous violence are foreign concepts. -Philosophy major who studies differences in historic epochs.
Josh, I loved how you delved into Klingon culture and human culture and how values and perspectives can vastly differ. To me, that's always been the beauty of Trek. Yeah, Trek can paint broad strokes for entire species that make an appearance (Ferengi being avaricious, Romulans being scheming, etc), but it also embraces the notion of various points of view and diversity (ohh nooo, I've used the D word!)
Note, despite Romulans being scheming, "The Enemy" shows there is an idea of honorable conduct there. Even in the earliest instance, the Romulans were not quite so... simple... an adversary. Ferengi are another matter, and we should put a pin in that. (There's a lot more material to go.)
Once worf stated that k'ehleyr was his mate, duras knew he was dead. Regardless of the worst of status, he had every right to avenge her attack. The other klingons wouldn't let duras back down or ignore the challenge for any reason.
Exactly, if he had backed down, it'd be viewed as an act of cowardice, and any member of Duras' crew would be free and clear to assassinate Duras and assume command of his vessel
Definitely my most anticipated episode for you to react to in the first batch of S4, which is already stacked with great episodes. It very much went how I expected and even better, because I forgot about some of the twists and turns again since I've seen it.
11:04 - Gowron's best moment. 13:18 - I love Gowron's acting here. His reaction to the detonator shows he IMMEDIATLY understands the significance without being told, and the way he glares at Duras as they leave screams "You are a monster and you will be destroyed."
Idk if that makes you feel any better, but basically half of the behind the scenes trivia for this episode is just the whole TNG crew being equally as flabbergasted and sad that they killed off K'Ehleyr as you are.
I think you should also bear in mind that from Duras's perspective, he believes his own hype, he thinks of Worf as inferior, as discomendated and so in his mind it is unthinkable that worf may actually beat him
Elite Level. I am always torn because Susie is SO good. I can't help but think she should have bevome part of the regular cast. And here again is the trope of the female character dying to move a make character forward. But... It is great stuff for Worf, moves things on the Klingon side further, expands on so much and lays the seeds for more Klingon shenanigans... And the Dutas and Worf face off is (CHEFS KISS) "Keylar was my mate!" Discommendation or not Durasvknew he HAD to fight Worf, just as every other Klingon in that room knew it. Having used Klingon culture to his advantage Duras was destroyed by Klingon social norms he couldn't escape the consequences of. Michael Dorn kills it. literally. Such a great one.
Two moments that I love in this episode: one at the very end when Worf gives Alexander a hug, because I feel like Klingon parents tend not to be very touchy-feely. The other when Worf is about to duel Duras, he takes off his comm badge, throws it on the end table, and doesn't even notice when it falls off. I don't know whether it was planned for it to fall off the table, but it says so much about Worf's state of mind at that moment. I correctly predicted that you guys would jump out of your chairs three times during this episode. During the next episode, Future Imperfect, I predict that you will jump out of your chairs four times.
Duras probably felt he had some measure of diplomatic immunity from the Federation. Klingon Empire would be outraged over any attempt to hold him because he was a council member and candidate to lead the Empire. Duras may have fled to his ship, but he could not escape Klingon Law.
I think he probably would have been protected by Klingon Law. K'Ehleyr was snooping for restricted information, it wouldn't be hard to frame her as a spy, even if the Federation didn't buy that explanation. The issue was personal, however. Worf removed his combadge because he wasn't acting as a Starfleet officer and he removed his baldric because he wasn't acting as a member of the discommendated house of Mogh, he was acting as a widower seeking revenge. The Klingon law that would have protected Duras from the legal consequences for the murder of K'Ehleyr also protected Worf for taking revenge on his mate's murder.
@@StarkRG I believe Worf did say to Captain Picard that he acted within Klingon Law and tradition. This was what I was referring to when I said Duras couldn't escape Klingon Law.
*That* scene gets me every single time, even 34 years later. My eyes usually glaze over when Klingons are doing their schtick but this episode was just incredibly powerful.
Finally! This is the reaction I have been waiting for for so long!! Especially since you guys were such huge fans of K'Ehleyr. I have been biting my tongue since season 2 about telling you about her coming back.
That moment Worf swings down the Bat'leth is about the most satisfying scene in any Trek ever. Me being a pacifist, took some time to reconciliate with feeling kinda Klingon watching that scene. :)
I felt so bad for you guys when you two showed how excited you were for K'Ehleyr's return, knowing what was to come later in the episode. Suzie Plakson is a phenomenal actor.
While something more could definitely have been done with Keylar, I think it sets a good precedent to actually add stakes and things that matter to Star Trek. You should kill off characters for reasons that are not the actor wanting to leave and it enriches Wolf's character there forward.
I've been waiting for you guys to get to this episode for a while. SUCH a good episode . That stare of Gowron is something you never get used to... or forget lol.
This is one of my absolute favorites. Suzy Plackson is incredible, and combining 2 different Worf/Klingon backstory episodes into one grand finale was such a new thing for Star Trek! And of course, Gowron is iconic.
Great reaction, fellas. I knew this would be a big one for you. Comic book writer Gail Simone would probably say they "fridged" Kaylar's character. It's a term used when writers kill off a female love interest to advance the male hero's story. They use "fridge" because in the comics Green Lantern found his girlfriend's head in a refrigerator.
I... dunno if she would, I might try to ask her about it. But knowing how Gail is, she might respond something like "it's a pity, she could have been a Jedi" or some other trolling nonsense :)
I was waiting for you guys to get to this episode ever since The Emissary. I thought Alex was going to give this an S for sure. But I totally understand why the A instead. Very well-liked guest character killed off. For me, it's not how K'Ehleyr was killed, nor the fact that it was Duras, but the shocking unveil of it. You guys are right. It's a good thing Tony Todd was excluded from this episode.
In a way you guys are priviliged to watch the series in the era of DVD boxsets and therefore in the right order. Because in the 80s and 90s you watched it on TV, missed a few episodes, unless you had no regular life, and caught up with the missing ones during reruns. I for example did not know who Kehleyr was when i watched this episode, because i watched the previous episode where she appeared afterwards. So you guys have these exciting reactions i did not have in those days, so i envy you.
I've said that same thing MANY TIMES! Binge watching these shows is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE from catching a random episode on TV especially on an Episodic non Serialized format. Not that I'm complaining. I much prefer the streaming binge Era to the old network TV seasonal and rerun format. Product of our modern era and technology.
K'Ehleyr is the catalyst for Worf to be truly Klingon. His discommodation was an internal personal issue that was a burden for him to bear alone to protect the empire, instead of getting justice for the betrayal of his family by Duras' family. His mixed Klingon/Federation upbringing means he has to show far more discipline, restraint and devotion to duty than either humans or Klingons. K'Ehleyr and Alexander give him the cause to champion solely for himself, and her loss meant he was down to only himself and Alexander. He was finally pressed to throw it all away for the mate he was finally able to have (he might also have died, leaving Alexander an orphan), but then losing her for the exact same reason he and Picard kept all of the secrets; now he was unleashed. And we, and his crewmates, get to see what he has been warning them about all along - he is the most dangerous person on the ship after Data. But in the end, his actions are accepted by the Klingons, and are not Starfleet's business; only Picard feels the betrayal of his dereliction of duty, and while still understanding it, he has to restore discipline and chain of command by reprimanding him. Picard and Data may have their fun with Shakespeare on the holodeck, but Worf's life is truly Shakespearean.
Kheylar's death, although we won't see the act, has such a bloody aftermath not just for star trek, but for TV of the time. The scene is just brutal. And Worf's scream... Ugh it really gets you. This episode alone touches on so much stuff that previously happened. It reminds me of why i hate it when people tell new trek viewers that they can watch TNG in any order. Get out of here. Loved the excitement you guys had when she popped up on screen. I watched this when it aired and 10 year old me also freaked out when she first popped up on the viewer.
Just to respond to the question of "Did Duras think he could get away with it?" Duras wanted to do anything to prevent his family secret from coming out, especially since he too was a traitor. Whatever consequences he would suffer from murdering K'Ehleyr (or rather the consequences he thought he would suffer) would pale compared to the consequences of being exposed as a traitor. It was an act born of desperation and cowardice.
I don’t think it’s correct to say Worf killed Duras in cold blood. I’d describe that kill as hot blooded. If it were human law I’d argue that it’s 2nd degree murder. It was done with malice of forethought but was not planned. He lost his lover and went right to it.
Yay, Gowron’s here! Also, I think this is where TNG starts playing with multi season arcs which they ultimately prefect with ds9 and really influenced modern television.
So cool to see y’all loving these characters as much as we all do. The writers don’t insult their audience and make it a rewarding show to watch. It reflects real life, tragedies happen and we have to keep living our lives. Suzie Plakson hit it out of the park, as always.
It's a little thing, but to this day I've always remembered that awesome shot of the Enterprise hanging nose to nose with the Klingon battlecruiser. Says everything you need to know about Klingon culture right there.
Your commentary on this episode and your love of certain background characters has convinced me that your reaction to DS9 will be amazing. Watching your minds get blown over and over again is going to be so much fun.
One of the most fun things about your reactions is the incredibly joyous way you react when you see a character you like reappear. It's glorious and so much fun ... although in this case, I can assure you that your dismay at the end was shared by everyone. It still is. I'm still salty about it, 30 years later. And now you know why I waited to make my Crazy Eyes comparison. The second Gowron spun around in that chair, I thought to myself, "Oh PLEASE keep this one around, he looks fun!"
My assumption has always been that they wanted to give Worf some dimension by having a personal life, someone to share a life with. But the continued existence of a spouse would continue a tension that could pull the character right out of this episodic show. With Alexander, he has the added personal dimension, but not one that will ever pull him off the ship. It was a trope in episodic storytelling telling for a character to lose a love interest and be left with children in the process; often the children would arrive *after* the love interest was already gone! ... also, they used this to give Worf a burning reason to get off his hump re the discommendation and start kicking ass and righting wrongs.
Gowron is a top tier guest character. Def a personal favorite. I think Wolf could have done a better job being a dad, pawning him off on the Roshenkos was a mid dad move.
We had an extended discussion on character deaths in our Patreon Exclusive segment for thi episode - www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-extended-112081688?Link&
You guys always get angry or dislike episodes assuming the story never comes up again or characters are gone forever. Hopefully you’ll adjust your grades at the end of the series when you see the context of everything.
And yes, I understand you gave this episode good scores, but It happens a lot and you did complain about things not meaning anything in this episode.
Clearly you weren't expecting an episode filled with war intrigue, political ambition, murder, passion, blood and revenge ... all the elements of a classic Klingon tale.
@@zatoichi1 They were jumping around like little girls at a taylor swift concert!
I noticed a mistake in the analysis, seems like you guys think Gowron poisoned Kempec, but it was confirmed that Duras poisoned him. You weren't paying attention to Dr. Beverly!
HELL ON WHEELS for some awesome Colm Meaney!!! Watch it here or on your own. You'll love it!
Ah. Finally, you are introduced to the eyeballs of Gowron. they are their own character.
Nothing beats those Manson lamps
😂
And their first Vor’Cha class attack cruiser.
And the first Batleth
Gowron eyes achieved meme status
Worf going full revenge mode on Duras to avenge K'Ehleyr is one of the best scenes in Star Trek.
Full agree! This is one of my top 5 favorite TNG episodes. Goosebumps from Worf's death yell to his skewering Duras.
and he did it with his family bat'leth also avenging his father who died because of Daras father
@@traverserred Very fitting indeed!
AGREED.Worf was standing on Klingon business.
For sure! Riker yelled at him to stop and he's like "Nope, this guy needs to die."
Bit of trivia you might be interested in:
Michael Piller commented, "I killed K'Ehleyr. The original idea was about Worf's kid and bringing K'Ehleyr back, who was having a relationship with Duras. But when we started talking about how to make the story work, I'm the one who said she should die… You wanted to get to a place where Worf was going to take Duras apart, and there's no real good reason for him to do it unless she dies… he had it coming."
Ron Moore added, "We love Suzie and that character, but it worked because you cared about her and we made an effort not to do it capriciously and for no reason, just to get her off the show so Worf wouldn't have to deal with her. I have pals on the show and they were upset. It took Worf's character in a different direction, which is sort of what we did with "Sins." Anybody who watches that episode is moved and outraged by the killing of K'Ehleyr. You're mad and you have that same need for vengeance that Worf does. If we've tapped into those feelings so when Worf goes back to his quarters and grabs that sword and the audience is screaming for Duras' head, then you've done it. You really had to do that scene where Picard calls Worf onto the carpet for what he did and puts it to him."
When Gowron looks at you, you stay looked at!
@kennethlee494 never look into the eyes of Gowron as he will look back at you but pretty fucking awesome while doing it.
Gowron not only stares menacingly into your soul but simultaneously stares into the soul of all of your alternates across all timelines.
For weeks.
TA TREK 001: “So, I guess we’ll watch this Star Trek thing. But it’s just an ancient, cheesy, episodic show - it’s not like it has a lore and mythology we’ll ever be able to get truly invested in.”
TA TREK 188: “Don’t do the scream. Don’t do the scream!”
THE LORE!!!!!
@@Vulcanerd and The Data!
@@williamozier918 trust data not lore
Ah, Gowron. Not even a cloaked Bird of Prey can escape his mighty stare!
"What color WERE HIS EYES!?"
This episode showed that TNG now had ongoing character arcs. Having K'Lar from season 2, the events from Sins of the Father in season 3, and now a new kid all centered around Worf. Plus being the start of Frakes' rise to power behind the camera this is a special episode. He is one of the top guest directors in Hollywood now.
Duras: "I'm the only one, Worf. I'm the only one who can prove your father's innocence. Kill me and you're a traitor forever."
Worf: "Then that IS HOW IT SHALL BE!"
I knew this one would be a rollercoaster for you - the K'Ehleyr reveal, the Alexander reveal, the _Frakes_ reveal... and then, the scene I've been dreading ever since you put her as your favourite guest character and demanded to see her again.
Thed admonition "Be careful of what you wish for, you just might get it." appllies so much here.
Gowron is the only Klingon in the galaxy who can win a staring contest with a photo of himself.
Target Audience: " They never have stakes that are important and believable. We hate that."
Star Trek: "Fine. We will kill an important character"
Target Audience: " I hate that there is actually stakes in this episode"
The triple shot of K'Ehleyr/Alexander/Frakes director makes this an S++++++ reaction for sure.
This is the quintessential Klingon episode. It brings back K'Ehleyr, Duras, and K'mpec, and introduces Gowron, the bat'leth and the Vor'cha attack cruiser.
I thought that was the N'var battlecruiser
@@karlsmith2570 Vor'cha
When I originally saw this episode, it blew my mind that not only did they kill off K'Ehleyr, but they actually let Worf be a Klingon and take his vengeance AND show him actually killing off Duras. And I appreciate the fine line Worf must tread as a Klingon and a Starfleet Officer. And it's always a pleasure to see the Gowrom owl-stare.
Worf killing Duras is one of those things that I bet would not have been allowed had TNG been a network show. And all that blood around K’Ehleyr for that matter.
Gene would not have approved
@@silikon2 I feel like maybe it would as my childhood memories of the original "The Equalizer" include it getting fairly brutal, including blood, on occasion. And I think that was on a network before this series. And the 1980s Twilight Zone was at times more horror than the original.
@@ThomasReeves-s7u I’m pretty sure The Equalizer was scheduled as an adult show, so aired late, like 9 or 10PM. If TNG were aired like that, then maybe, but the show was not aired like an adult show.
@@silikon2 Oh okay. I got a bit mixed up and thought you meant it wouldn't be on network TV at any point.
Yeah to some degree Trek, although certain aspects make this odd, was seen as a "family show." I think that's why they were leery of including homosexual characters until a bit later than networks. Although it is odd they had no problem with strident anti-religion statements and free-love planets.
Take a shot every time Gowron blinks.
Most sober reaction episode ever.
The point of a drinking game is having an excuse to drink.
Damn you!
Never even open the bottle
@@MrTickleTrunk Greetings to you and very true he doesn't blink or sleep
Chug your drink until he blinks, that’s much more fun
Vader: No, I am your father
Worf: Yes, I am your father.
Dorn would've made a great Vader substitute. Worf's voice has that reverb.
It's like watching the show for the first time with you guys...😂
Same feeling here
He's ferocious - and he knows just what takes to make a bro blush!
All the Romulans think he's a spy, he's got Buggin' Gowron eyes!
I love the K’mpec scene that kicks this off. The brooding old Klingon leader, revealing the wine that had slow poisoned him and still drinking it because he knew his fate already.
This is like most of my family reunions. A few fights, poisoning or two, a couple of deaths, and the introduction of an unknown bastard kid. Yep typical old school Scottish family get-together
You win the internet today
😂😂😂
Scots are Klingon? Or are Klingons the descendants of ancient Scots who ventured into space?
I don’t know what family reunions you’re going to, but you should get a new family. 😂
But how many of your family can stare LIKE THAT?
3D printed a Bat’leth for my brother. We grew up on TNG in the 80s and 90s and he’s always wanted one.
ELITE gift
A gift fit for a warrior. Glory to your house!
@shanepye7078 once took a bus ride from Colorado to Louisiana. Met this dude claiming to go meet a girl. At every damn stop he'd show us his knife collection. Dude had a bat'leth in his baggage. Was pretty cool but also unnerving he had so many knives. We all sighed in relief when he got off the bus.
Still, it was a cool thing to hold in person.
@@menolikey_ that’s the creepiest thing I’ve read this year. That girl ended up being served as hamburger meat.
@@MiningForPies we were all feeling that way.
Thankfully they were stored in the undercarriage.
Cried like a baby when she died. GREAT episode.
One of the things that’s so great about this show is that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. It really builds a believable world. The way you guys are discussing the backstory to this really illustrates that. Callbacks aren’t just, “remember when this happened?” They are unresolved and ambiguous and have consequences.
It's funny that they got an actor that looks so crazy that you don't immediately assume the villain is Duras. Galron "the wild eyed"is one of my favorite secondary characters & presents an interesting type of Klingon, a Politician
Indeed. I'm glad Target Audience's expected twist, wasn't. Galron made a great red herring.
I gowron is a favorite of mine
A couple things about this episode, the writing and the guest stars. The fact that you currently (and many of us still) feel so badly about K'ehlar's death speaks to the quality of the character writing as well as the job the actress did portraying her. Watching this back along with you guys, I have realized that this season is about family, family, family and more family. I never realized that before. Trust me you aren't done yet either. There is so much to come. As far as this pushing things (Worf in particular) forward; this is a lynch pin that sets of a chain of events into motion that are continually felt for season, movies and series… (and I don't think that was an accident) strap in boys.
Just some military context, a Reprimand is the absolute lowest punishment that can be given for a service offence. It is literally “don’t do that again” written on paper. No major career implications over the long term. My impression is Picard was giving as much tacit approval as he could.
Do they HAVE •paper• at the time of TNG? (I'm trying to think of an instance of where we've actually seen paper on the show. Nothing comes to mind, but I'm sure it must be there. Picard would have some physical books in his personal collection.) Seriously, the clarification of what a 'reprimand' is, from you, was good to know. That Picard gave tacit approval after the fact, adds depth to this classic episode.
"I'm sorry, Mr. Worf, you might not have broken any Klingon laws, but you sure as hell broke one of ours. Murder is a thing in the Federation. I'm committing you to Tantalus Colony for rehabilitation, but be of good cheer! A fortnight under their neural neutralizer and you'll be right as rain! Right-right-right! Now, off you go!"
Yeah that pissed me of. Thats like a navy officer kills a foreign ambassador and the only punishment is a "dont do this again". In modern serialised TV there would be consequences for that, where Worf would miss a few episodes to stay in prison until he gets rehabilitated about 6 episodes later. But Picard seemed very very weak here.
Well a few episodes ago Picard disobeyed an order from an Admiral and returned a POW to his captures and nothing happened to him career wise. Starfleet is generally lax in consequences, it's amazing they keep such strict discipline.
@@paulanerruhrpott6188But the Klingons didn’t see it that way. To them it was a dual, which are allowed, and Duras agreed to dual. Duras even implicitly admitted to unaliving K’Ehleyr.
It is a mild punishment (to say the least) but the Klingons might have been offended if Starfleet had strongly punished Worf.
This episode is one of those that could have profited from being a two-parter, would have loved to see more interaction between Worf and K'Ehleyr. Gowron is a fascinating new character! Also, great work by Frakes directing.
They realized it with Redemption 1+2
Goosebumps every time I see that scene with Worf entering the room, Weapon in hand to challenge Duras. And Duras's crew clearing the way when Worf announced that K'Ehleyr was his mate.
Likely Duras's crew knew what he did. They also knew of Worf's discommendation.
But despite all the conspiracy and treachery by Duras, apparently "Right of Vengeance" supersedes all that.
Duras knew he had no way out of that.
One of the best Worf-centric episodes in the entire show, imho.
If I remember that's the one thing a Klingon always keeps is the right to claim vengeance. Which is why certain Klingons dislike the times Worf takes a human approach and turns the other cheek when he has the right to fight
@@donovanbradford8231 Thats due to how the klingon honor code works, to deny vengeance is to say, at best, you didn't care about what happened (a lack of klingoninity), or at worst you are too cowardly to pursue justice. Its less a right to fight (modern human mindeset) and more a demand to fight.
@@donovanbradford8231 Makes sense.
Nice that the klingon code allows right of vengeance to even the discommodated
Even if it doesn't, Duras can't exactly refuse the challenge without looking weak..
During the scream, all I can focus on is Alexander running behind worf and standing perfectly still on his mark with hands at his sides, facing the wall.
He was a great little actor.
@@DocMicrowavecompared to child actors of earlier seasons, absolutely. I think something must have been happening in the theory of teaching acting around this time. Child actors suddenly get a lot better
@fredcasdensworld that is an extremely bizarre claim. How did she do anything of the kind? She was just one of the not-great actors on Full House. What bar did she raise and how?
@@hunrahel The child actor who plays Alexander also played the newest and youngest child on Family Ties around this same time too, he wasn’t some random.
@@goldenshark3182 Brian Bonsall came later. This Alexander was played by Jon Paul Steuer.
Alexander is a popular Russian name. Kaylar named him for Worf’s human family.
Alexander overall is more popular in slavic countries than the others
@@julianozaur444 always wished they got into that more with Worf. Only thing they mention is he loves Minsk for vacations. I can’t remember but I think it was for romantic ones too.
Or for someone in her human family. Also, "Alexander" is the name of possibly the greatest military leader in human history.
@@mjbull5156 true, but I think it was for Worf still in her own way. Making it a Russian thing makes Kaylar way deeper. Alexander Rosenko is such an eastern name.
@@mjbull5156 makes more sense the other way if you think about it. she rejected her klingon heritage, her kid's adopted grandparents are russian, she loves worf. Alexander Rozhenko.
When I watched it live I thought Worf was going to do something stupid line putting the blade right by his head. I was pleasantly surprised when he did what needed to be done
There's so much that happens in this episode, the return (and death) of K'Ehleyr, the return (and death) of Duras, the introduction of Gowron and his eyes, the introduction of Alexander, and Worf just straight up killing Duras is another step-up in the "no, Worf is not human, he is completely fine with killing someone for revenge" characterisation.
Also, love the fact that the Klingons were just like "Yeah, no, that's reasonable under our laws. Everything is settled". I find that really funny for some reason.
Edit: And while I agree that bringing back a character just to kill them off isn't always great writing, in this case I think it was necessary, because the story needed a catalyst that would push Worf to kill in vengeance, and you're only going to get that with a character he has a strong bond with, and I don't think that could have been done convincingly with a new character.
Seriously 34 years later and I'm still pissed that they killed K'Ehleyr.
I wish they kept the reverb for the scream used in season 1
Ronald D. Moore always hitting the Klingon episodes out of the park.
Unfortunately he couldn’t write a James T. Kirk one.
RIP K'Ehleyr. Keep those speculations going, but just remember ... Gowron is watching!
👁👁
We may not watch the non-Trek stuff, but I appreciate that you are making it. You never know what might hit and be your next big thing.
Those TNG episodes never get boring. Indeed they get more and more deep emotional to me as the years fly by
Killing someone in a duel isn’t cold blood. We just don’t live in a society that has duels and honor.
Sadly…
Even in our society it's literally the opposite, a hot-blooded crime of passion.
Less than two hundred years ago it was a fairly common practice even in the United States, depending on the locality. To so flippantly refer to a formally accepted duel to avenge a loved one as "cold-blooded murder" is such a myopic "current year" mindset that I would prefer to believe he's just misspeaking.
@@GenerateSilence I think it’s just apart of inherit bias in a current day. Duty and discomfort, just and righteous violence are foreign concepts. -Philosophy major who studies differences in historic epochs.
I dont think Klingons have last name but they usually refer to themselves by what clan/house they belong to. Like Worf son of Mogh.
This is how a lot of human surnames originated.
@@johncrawford5225 Still can be seen in some nordic-derived surnames. Johnson is another more common sight of it.
Josh, I loved how you delved into Klingon culture and human culture and how values and perspectives can vastly differ. To me, that's always been the beauty of Trek. Yeah, Trek can paint broad strokes for entire species that make an appearance (Ferengi being avaricious, Romulans being scheming, etc), but it also embraces the notion of various points of view and diversity (ohh nooo, I've used the D word!)
Well said!
Note, despite Romulans being scheming, "The Enemy" shows there is an idea of honorable conduct there. Even in the earliest instance, the Romulans were not quite so... simple... an adversary.
Ferengi are another matter, and we should put a pin in that. (There's a lot more material to go.)
Ah, Gowron! The Klingon episodes this season are imho unmatched, at least within TNG.
Wes was in the episode just at the very beginning as the Klingon ship pulls in front just to say, "all stop."
They really packed a ton of stuff into one episode here
Forgot where I heard it, but someone said a great movie doesn’t have to make you feel good; but it makes you feel something.
Once worf stated that k'ehleyr was his mate, duras knew he was dead. Regardless of the worst of status, he had every right to avenge her attack. The other klingons wouldn't let duras back down or ignore the challenge for any reason.
Exactly, if he had backed down, it'd be viewed as an act of cowardice, and any member of Duras' crew would be free and clear to assassinate Duras and assume command of his vessel
Definitely my most anticipated episode for you to react to in the first batch of S4, which is already stacked with great episodes. It very much went how I expected and even better, because I forgot about some of the twists and turns again since I've seen it.
11:04 - Gowron's best moment.
13:18 - I love Gowron's acting here. His reaction to the detonator shows he IMMEDIATLY understands the significance without being told, and the way he glares at Duras as they leave screams "You are a monster and you will be destroyed."
"... and the other ones that you don't watch" LOL
Idk if that makes you feel any better, but basically half of the behind the scenes trivia for this episode is just the whole TNG crew being equally as flabbergasted and sad that they killed off K'Ehleyr as you are.
I remember screaming NOOO! at the TV when she died. She was one of my favorite characters.
It's a hard death. Suzie Plakson is so good in the role.
I think you should also bear in mind that from Duras's perspective, he believes his own hype, he thinks of Worf as inferior, as discomendated and so in his mind it is unthinkable that worf may actually beat him
Elite Level.
I am always torn because Susie is SO good. I can't help but think she should have bevome part of the regular cast. And here again is the trope of the female character dying to move a make character forward.
But... It is great stuff for Worf, moves things on the Klingon side further, expands on so much and lays the seeds for more Klingon shenanigans... And the Dutas and Worf face off is (CHEFS KISS)
"Keylar was my mate!"
Discommendation or not Durasvknew he HAD to fight Worf, just as every other Klingon in that room knew it. Having used Klingon culture to his advantage Duras was destroyed by Klingon social norms he couldn't escape the consequences of.
Michael Dorn kills it. literally.
Such a great one.
Two moments that I love in this episode: one at the very end when Worf gives Alexander a hug, because I feel like Klingon parents tend not to be very touchy-feely. The other when Worf is about to duel Duras, he takes off his comm badge, throws it on the end table, and doesn't even notice when it falls off. I don't know whether it was planned for it to fall off the table, but it says so much about Worf's state of mind at that moment.
I correctly predicted that you guys would jump out of your chairs three times during this episode. During the next episode, Future Imperfect, I predict that you will jump out of your chairs four times.
At least 4 times. Maybe 5.
LOL I bet I can guess at least three of those times...!
The arrival of Alexander was overshadowed by Gowron
Very true I hadn't thought of that until you mentioned it
Gowron tends to do that. He’s an absolute scene stealer.
Duras probably felt he had some measure of diplomatic immunity from the Federation. Klingon Empire would be outraged over any attempt to hold him because he was a council member and candidate to lead the Empire. Duras may have fled to his ship, but he could not escape Klingon Law.
I think he probably would have been protected by Klingon Law. K'Ehleyr was snooping for restricted information, it wouldn't be hard to frame her as a spy, even if the Federation didn't buy that explanation. The issue was personal, however. Worf removed his combadge because he wasn't acting as a Starfleet officer and he removed his baldric because he wasn't acting as a member of the discommendated house of Mogh, he was acting as a widower seeking revenge. The Klingon law that would have protected Duras from the legal consequences for the murder of K'Ehleyr also protected Worf for taking revenge on his mate's murder.
@@StarkRG I believe Worf did say to Captain Picard that he acted within Klingon Law and tradition. This was what I was referring to when I said Duras couldn't escape Klingon Law.
*That* scene gets me every single time, even 34 years later.
My eyes usually glaze over when Klingons are doing their schtick but this episode was just incredibly powerful.
I'm am so glad that you guys finally got to this episode.
This season is absolutely loaded with continuity.
You guys will LOVE Deep Space Nine!
Not all of it.
@@miller-joel
Granted. Carry on!
I’m always interested when it’s a Frakes episode. 1/2 the time he’s barely in them. The other half, it’s a tour de force performance from him.
Minor note: the Klingon ship looks different from previous ships because this is Kempec's Battle Cruiser. Sort of like the Klingon Air Force One.
Finally! This is the reaction I have been waiting for for so long!! Especially since you guys were such huge fans of K'Ehleyr. I have been biting my tongue since season 2 about telling you about her coming back.
And we're still having to bite!
That moment Worf swings down the Bat'leth is about the most satisfying scene in any Trek ever. Me being a pacifist, took some time to reconciliate with feeling kinda Klingon watching that scene. :)
Regarding the end: You can take the Klingon out of the Empire but you can't take the Empire out of the Klingon. Just a great episode.
AGREED.And finally Worf gets to kick some butt !!! LOL.
This was a tough one for all the best reasons.
The season 4 theme of family relationships continues ...
I've been looking forward to this since the teaser hit my feed.
Without her death, Worf could not have killed Duras. So even within this episode, it moved both stories forward.
oh man, this is such a great episode. I love you guys reactions.
Video: "Episode 188, 45 Minutes Earlier"
Me: "Yeah, I'm gonna hit that Like button right now"
I cried when she died because she was just SO good as a character, man I couldn’t believe they did that, she was awesome.
Damn.
I felt so bad for you guys when you two showed how excited you were for K'Ehleyr's return, knowing what was to come later in the episode.
Suzie Plakson is a phenomenal actor.
While something more could definitely have been done with Keylar, I think it sets a good precedent to actually add stakes and things that matter to Star Trek. You should kill off characters for reasons that are not the actor wanting to leave and it enriches Wolf's character there forward.
I've been waiting for you guys to get to this episode for a while. SUCH a good episode . That stare of Gowron is something you never get used to... or forget lol.
Incredible episode! So much happens! Enter Gowron’s eyes! And RIP K’Ehleyr 😢
Welcome to the eyes that will forever stick in your brain for all eternity! 😳
This is one of my absolute favorites. Suzy Plackson is incredible, and combining 2 different Worf/Klingon backstory episodes into one grand finale was such a new thing for Star Trek! And of course, Gowron is iconic.
Great reaction, fellas. I knew this would be a big one for you.
Comic book writer Gail Simone would probably say they "fridged" Kaylar's character. It's a term used when writers kill off a female love interest to advance the male hero's story. They use "fridge" because in the comics Green Lantern found his girlfriend's head in a refrigerator.
I... dunno if she would, I might try to ask her about it. But knowing how Gail is, she might respond something like "it's a pity, she could have been a Jedi" or some other trolling nonsense :)
I was waiting for you guys to get to this episode ever since The Emissary. I thought Alex was going to give this an S for sure. But I totally understand why the A instead. Very well-liked guest character killed off. For me, it's not how K'Ehleyr was killed, nor the fact that it was Duras, but the shocking unveil of it. You guys are right. It's a good thing Tony Todd was excluded from this episode.
“Whenever Worf’s character arc ends” The biggest LOL I’ve ever LOL’d.
Your reaction to seeing K'ehleyr was the one i was waiting for!
They delivered!
In a way you guys are priviliged to watch the series in the era of DVD boxsets and therefore in the right order. Because in the 80s and 90s you watched it on TV, missed a few episodes, unless you had no regular life, and caught up with the missing ones during reruns. I for example did not know who Kehleyr was when i watched this episode, because i watched the previous episode where she appeared afterwards. So you guys have these exciting reactions i did not have in those days, so i envy you.
I've said that same thing MANY TIMES! Binge watching these shows is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE from catching a random episode on TV especially on an Episodic non Serialized format.
Not that I'm complaining. I much prefer the streaming binge Era to the old network TV seasonal and rerun format. Product of our modern era and technology.
You didn't have a VCR? Me neither. But a friend of mine had one. So I was lucky I could catch up in order.
K'Ehleyr is the catalyst for Worf to be truly Klingon. His discommodation was an internal personal issue that was a burden for him to bear alone to protect the empire, instead of getting justice for the betrayal of his family by Duras' family. His mixed Klingon/Federation upbringing means he has to show far more discipline, restraint and devotion to duty than either humans or Klingons. K'Ehleyr and Alexander give him the cause to champion solely for himself, and her loss meant he was down to only himself and Alexander. He was finally pressed to throw it all away for the mate he was finally able to have (he might also have died, leaving Alexander an orphan), but then losing her for the exact same reason he and Picard kept all of the secrets; now he was unleashed. And we, and his crewmates, get to see what he has been warning them about all along - he is the most dangerous person on the ship after Data. But in the end, his actions are accepted by the Klingons, and are not Starfleet's business; only Picard feels the betrayal of his dereliction of duty, and while still understanding it, he has to restore discipline and chain of command by reprimanding him.
Picard and Data may have their fun with Shakespeare on the holodeck, but Worf's life is truly Shakespearean.
Welcome to Star Trek. Worf must suffer.
Viewers must suffer.
The gleeful reaction to the K'Ehleyr reveal is heartwarming and freakin' delightful!
Kheylar's death, although we won't see the act, has such a bloody aftermath not just for star trek, but for TV of the time. The scene is just brutal. And Worf's scream... Ugh it really gets you. This episode alone touches on so much stuff that previously happened. It reminds me of why i hate it when people tell new trek viewers that they can watch TNG in any order. Get out of here. Loved the excitement you guys had when she popped up on screen. I watched this when it aired and 10 year old me also freaked out when she first popped up on the viewer.
Just to respond to the question of "Did Duras think he could get away with it?" Duras wanted to do anything to prevent his family secret from coming out, especially since he too was a traitor. Whatever consequences he would suffer from murdering K'Ehleyr (or rather the consequences he thought he would suffer) would pale compared to the consequences of being exposed as a traitor. It was an act born of desperation and cowardice.
I don’t think it’s correct to say Worf killed Duras in cold blood. I’d describe that kill as hot blooded. If it were human law I’d argue that it’s 2nd degree murder. It was done with malice of forethought but was not planned. He lost his lover and went right to it.
You’re correct, we misused that phrase
If it was human law I'd argue it was justifiable and noncriminal homicide, and if I was in the jury, I'd nullify the crime.
Yay, Gowron’s here! Also, I think this is where TNG starts playing with multi season arcs which they ultimately prefect with ds9 and really influenced modern television.
Great show again. But keep finding more and more I want to go to the end so I can hear the song. Love it!!
So cool to see y’all loving these characters as much as we all do. The writers don’t insult their audience and make it a rewarding show to watch. It reflects real life, tragedies happen and we have to keep living our lives. Suzie Plakson hit it out of the park, as always.
Josh I was there... you totally said not to clap. YOU'RE GOIN' DOWN FOR THIS!!!
It's a little thing, but to this day I've always remembered that awesome shot of the Enterprise hanging nose to nose with the Klingon battlecruiser. Says everything you need to know about Klingon culture right there.
Your commentary on this episode and your love of certain background characters has convinced me that your reaction to DS9 will be amazing.
Watching your minds get blown over and over again is going to be so much fun.
One of the most fun things about your reactions is the incredibly joyous way you react when you see a character you like reappear. It's glorious and so much fun ... although in this case, I can assure you that your dismay at the end was shared by everyone. It still is. I'm still salty about it, 30 years later.
And now you know why I waited to make my Crazy Eyes comparison. The second Gowron spun around in that chair, I thought to myself, "Oh PLEASE keep this one around, he looks fun!"
My assumption has always been that they wanted to give Worf some dimension by having a personal life, someone to share a life with. But the continued existence of a spouse would continue a tension that could pull the character right out of this episodic show. With Alexander, he has the added personal dimension, but not one that will ever pull him off the ship. It was a trope in episodic storytelling telling for a character to lose a love interest and be left with children in the process; often the children would arrive *after* the love interest was already gone! ... also, they used this to give Worf a burning reason to get off his hump re the discommendation and start kicking ass and righting wrongs.
AWESOME EPISODE!! One of the best of the whole franchise!
Gowron is a top tier guest character. Def a personal favorite. I think Wolf could have done a better job being a dad, pawning him off on the Roshenkos was a mid dad move.
They are the best parents he knows. I can understand why he made that decision, but it's also one I can't agree with.