Reconstruction of a huge intersection in 's-Hertogenbosch NL [354]
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- A huge intersection with a very dated 1965 design was completely reconstructed in 2014. "Heetmanplein", as it was nicknamed, was officially called Wilhelminaplein and can be found in 's-Hertogenbosch (aka Den Bosch) in the Netherlands.
More info in the blog post: bicycledutch.wo...
When you get some experience in Cites Skylines and decide to redo an old area
Yeeess
What would Biffa do :)
I was about to comment about this LOLs. I guess TM:PE mod alone is just enough. Save the cash.
I would add that the situation has also improved for drivers. The old intersection was confusing as hell.
yup , i don't think there has been i single driver that actually ended up where they were hoping to go the first time around. ...
even experienced drivers regularly went ... oh crap. And try to skip lanes in a very alternative fasion.
@@dawnmaster68 My brother almost had a bit of a cry after we turned the wrong way on the second try. Context: we were already late for a cremation so stressed out to the hilt.
I still remember the first time I had to cross it, was my first time in the inner city of Den Bosch as well. Confusing is putting it very mildly. But we made it in one piece and without a scratch.
i had my driving lessons in that city 20 years ago. i think even my instructor got confused there. i was very glad when it was changed, it was a place to avoid.
Don't forget to mention that there is a new by pass in the south and most traffic doesn't need to cross this intersection anymore. That's why it could be easily reconstructed with less tarmac.
Nice video, but you forgot two things. First, this traffic interchange was built in 1960, but Highway 2 was opened in 1970, so the interchange was designed for a lot of traffic. The second part of the story is that in 2011 there is a new traffic road on the westside of this interchange. This two road takes the traffic of this intetchange, what gives the possibility to change the interchange.
Bring back that park on that open space.
Litterally the most obvious idea
@@Spido68_the_spectator theres grass now
still empty space to this day
Ah yes, got the first time on this intersection during driving lessons. Turn right to go left is still my favoriete memory about this one.
Aside from the missing height, this kinda looks like the crap that people design in cities skylines, with a gazillion on and off ramps that only an AI traffic manager can figure out.
I really appreciate your videos. You explain the history and context , besides the teachnical part. Thank you!
ik woon zelf in 's-Hertogenbosch en ben wel blij dat ze het veranderd hebben.
vaak zat meegemaakt dat daar spookrijders waren
1:08 What's up with these old roundabouts? People driving on them have to give way to people that want to enter? How does that make sense haha.
Khoop hem echt een keer tegen te komen deze videos zijn echt geweldig vooral om dit te zien over je eigen stad
This complex design dates from 1965 as mentioned.
It was not constructed because some people were car-minded, but because all North-South traffic and East-West traffic went through this knot. It was very well designed and solved traffic jams for years. The N2 on this knot, was replaced by the A2 that went around the city, taking away a lot of traffic in the early 70's. In the 80's the A59 was constructed also around the city, taking away the North-West traffic, and connected the A58 to the West. West-South still had to use this traffic square. Only in 2010 the ring around the city was completed, taking away the last main route, and made the complex structure obsolete.
For safety reasons a big gasoline station was closed and removed which occupied a lot of space.
Local traffic is redirected around the city center.
I appreciate your videos about bicycles and infrastructure, but keep them fair and honest.
Btw the Eastern half is called Willemsplein, the Western half Wilhelminapark.
You forgot to read the link in the information section of this video. The link:
bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2014/10/30/xxl-size-reduction-for-an-intersection-in-den-bosch/
Had you done so then you would have noticed that he alraedy mentioned all the reasons you also mentioned in your reply.
I don't see the _'falsification of history'_ problem in reconstructing historical buildings... Nowadays we got the technology to do it right
1:14 near death experience for the cyclist there!
American being dramatic
One of the basic principles of designing intersections is to minimize the number of places where traffic crosses
Nice video. I remember geocoding the old Heetmanplein intersection in a digital navigation map. That was fun. But the new situation is much better. I use it every once in a while when i visit Den Bosch.
Wat een chaos kruispunt was het eerst.
exact
I am from Malaysia and this is very interesting.
I am also from Malaysia and this is very interesting that you found this very interesting.
I am not from Malaysia, but I am in a fascetious mood and wanted to join in. If it helps, my dad was born in Indonesia
I had drivers lessons there before they rebuilt it, it was terrible. Put me off driving :)
Oh god, what a place to take a student to drive.
I don't think its too late to reconstruct the fortifications. Maybe at some point if this ever becomes a park again. I'd certainly go there to see it reconstructed
Pleaseeee rebuild the old gate. It is beautifull and can help show people the history of the city
"This was one of the worst intersections in the netherlands"
*laughs in phoenix*
I didn't know Phoenix was in the Netherlands
Ah yes, Phoenix in The Netherlands.
I remember driving there in my car before it was redesigned. I had never seen anything like it, so confusing.
Try: learning to drive a car! Almost as hard as Nijmegen Keizer Karel plein.
@The Aristocrat he's trolling. Ignore him
i'm here in italy just woken up and seeing a video about a intersection in netherlands from 2014..... and enjoying it beaucause its very well done 👍
Gotta love the internet :)
I had to do my driving exam in that mess.... bloody hell.
I remember this intersection - worst design ever. To go left you needed to go right first, then you passed oncoming traffic from the left side. That was just "brilliant".
It has been reconstructed once again. It is even more simplistic now.
I remember driving there a lot since it is reconstructed, the only disadvantage I noticed is the short notice sorting lanes, when you drive from south to north over these intersections, you have switch lanes twice to the right to continue going straight. And when going south, you notice the left turn arrow after the corner, resulting in late merging by vehicles. It could easily be fixed by changing the road lines though. At least it's much better than pre-2014.
1:06 "By the time the private car became mainstream, these roundabouts were not able to handle the increased traffic"
It's easy to understand why. These drivers seemed to be applying the 'priority to the right' rule even at a roundabout. This arrangement made it easy to lock up a roundabout. The simplest answer would have been to change the priorities in favour of traffic already on the roundabout, instead of having made this monstrosity.
It works now because there are less cars. With heavy traffic, this “new” and “ingenious” idea would melt instantly. A roundabout would have worked better, as no one has to stop.
My little dog Sweety comes from Den Bosch (a small villlage near it) so nice to see Den Bosch looking good.
How the first design was even ever approved is still a mystery to me..
I would vote for the bringing back of the old gate - even if it was "fake history". Many places of been rebuilt to imitate/replace original buildings so its not unheard of. However, be wary of "modern" interpretations as that would probably be a bigger insult to history.
I love the Netherlands
And this channel
I remember as a kid i tried to count all traffic lights, it had about 63 (!) traffic lights 🤐
Cool ik woon zelf in Den Bosch, het blijft een best raar punt maar leuk om t zien. Ben zelf niet bekend met oude situatie
I know a lot of people in lieve Nederland that have a car, but still prefer to go lekker fietsen.
Interesting at 1:15 is also the traffic circle *without* priority (i.e., when on the circle, you still yield to traffic from the right)
More like people did not stop for cyclist’s
that's why it doesn't work. technically that shouldn't be called a roundabout but a traffic circle. different things.
to be fair, it also helps that the main road from south to north and west now runs around the city, and no longer through the city.
initially all traffic from south west and north of the city passed through this area. as a result, more cars per hour drove on this square than on the average motorway.
despite the crazy design, the square for cars worked, surprisingly enough it did! for pedestrians and cyclists, on the other hand, it was hell on earth
0:50 Lesson to be learned; don't dismantle city walls. They are awesome and beautiful (and in case of a zombie apocalypse; you're safe and sound).
As somebody who lives near that square. I can confirm! 073 where ya at?
Which bike path gets me to the Bossche bol? Thats the only important question.
1:37 dark blue top left. :)
Looking at street view imagery, as of November 2020 it's still just grass. What happened to the repurposing of the open area?
it doesn't have much priority, so they are now spending money and time on other projects that are more important
1:18 guess they didnt consider giving cars in the roundabout priority over those entering, aka how it is right now everywhere else
Making the Nederlands like they should be is not fasilying histroy. Falifying histroy would be saying that the gatehouse was never knocked down, rebuilding it and planting trees arround it is right.
Funny thing is that you can see the outlines of the old gate in the grass if you look it up on Maps
In the Netherlands do you give way to people coming on to the roundabout?!
No, that was 60 years ago when traffic laws really didn't exist
3:50 I've never seen a guy wearing full lycra on a hardtail with a mudflap, until now.
Is it possible to make a update with the current lay-out of the area? Especially with the situation for cyclist. |
I must say, the new lay-out is not an improvement at all.
The old design was brilliant, but hell complex. Many accidents happened there, because people didn't understand it. The current situation is so much better and safer.
Brilliant? Maybe in the eyes of some evil genius :o]
If people couldn't understand it than it wasn't brilliant
Okay... Even as a Car dependant Canadian... I can see how that sucks... It's giving me a headache... Why was that a good idea...?
The best design is still the first one, a park with one 2 lanes for car north and southbound
1:14, that is a very near miss with that cyclist
No this is a normal traffic situation, bikes get very close to even speedy cars.
I'm curious about poles foundations, base plates and their position relative to the ground, how do they prevent corrosion? how this affects maintenance?
could anyone point me to some document to this regard?
This is by the way exactly what playing the game "freeways" looks like
Reminds me of mij first driving lessons on the Heetmanplein. I already knew to drive by bike. Although by car it was very difficult.
5 years and zero likes, just wow! ;)
Like? you mean dislikes?
Google-bubble!
Why didn’t they just restore the roundabout?
This just seems better for literally everyone. Why the heck would you design a junction where cars had to go right to turn left across the path of the road you came from? That's just stupid and increases traffic
The old intersection was chaos. It would be nice to bring some traditional flavour back to this green area. Rebuild the gateway...bring it back and too bad if its a copycat...everyone will know its not authentic. So thats ok. Make a park there as well with childrens play ground and fortifications...to bring back the look of the past. Maybe a massive pond where hire boats are available surrounded by beautiful gardens and trees.
They changed it a few weeks ago
In Britain we call this a “malfunction junction”
My great grandfather was a van Hertog and my grandfather was a van den Bosch lol
How did everyone use that roundabout wrong? 🤣 cutting off people on the roundabout completely removes the point of the roundabout.
the rules for roundabouts were different then. "traffic from the right takes priority" and all. obviously better that it changed
Ik vind 't wel jammer dat ik er zelf nooit heb kunnen rijden met de auto, haha.
Stadspoort herbouwen lijkt me goeie, past bij 't bourgondisch karakter van het centrum.
Zeven jaar later en nu pas er een park.
THE BEST WAY TO SEE HOLLAND IS BY BICYCLE...
The old heetmanplein was designed by Stevie wonder
Where my people from Den Bosch at?
Vreselijk plein was het. Voordat je het wist reed je tegen het verkeer in
roundabouts there are backwards, not in direction but free for all just drive like hell mary ONLY giving way when your ON the roundabout not give way to people already on the roundabout
Lol I remember my parents driving here. It was always confusing.
Falsification of history? Many people would disagree. You can build or rebuild whatever you want. Look at the Frauenkirche in Dresden.
Yup, in Riga I visited a very pretty 'medieval guildhouse' only to find out that it had been 'restored' from being flat parking space for decades... :') Still very pretty building though. There are loads of examples where historical buildings have been rebuild from scratch with very pleasing results (espescially in Eastern Europe).
It’s silly that drawing from your own traditions and culture is now considered larping. Putting originality above tradition in design is like asking an engineer to build a rocket without using mathematics or physics. There’s nothing necessarily good about “original” physics, nor about original design.
What a f@#king monstrocity
That's a lot of wasted space right there...
Another starfort.👍👍
Those cars were not using the roundabouts correctly.
Rules on roundabouts have changed, all right had priority, now the roundabout has priority.
@@dutchman7623 The roundabout around the Arc de Triomphe in Paris still works that way. I wonder why it hasn't been changed, it's simply hazardous.
1:55 This sentence triggers me so much
What to do? Do nothing if not needed. And probably turn it into water.
1:07 - 1:22 wow, those drivers are doing roundabouts all wrong. People coming onto the roundabout *must* give way to traffic which is already on the roundabout.
roidroid yes now, but not in those days in the Netherlands. Traffic from the right had the right of way *also* on roundabouts. The laws were changed much later than these images.
markenlei On busy roundabouts, this rule would cause blockages all over the entire roundabout and (nearly) all access roads. I'm glad the laws were changed to match other countries; it's much more logical this way.
09conrado
Confusingly, the US has both types of roundabouts. Some are Traffic Circles, others are Roundabouts.
*****
That is because Keizer Karelplein is not a roundabout, but a traffic circle. We too have that difference.
***** well the design seems to be from 1964, but indeed, it was opened when I was just three weeks old. :-)
"falsification of history"?
I wish I was Dutch.
I thought this was cities skylines but whatever I learned something.
the two roundabouts would have been perfectly adequate provided the traffic already on the roundabout would have had right of way.
unfortunately at the time there was only one roundabout in the netherlands that had that configuration and it took way too long to figure out that it that was the best way.
it was in the bordertown of venlo, that had adapted the german system because there were so many germans coming in through that roundabout causing many accidents that is was deemed safer to have the german system.
no it wouldn't. Heetmanplein solved a traffic jam caused by the enormous amount of cars that passed by.
at the busiest time of the day, three traffic arteries (ergo 6 main roads) had to cross one square.
don't care what you build there, you have a problem!
Keizer Karelplein in Nijmegen does not really solve the problem.
and there is now less traffic on it than it did on the Heetman
@@marcelschellekens6386 Except the Keizer Karelplein is precisely an example of a traffic circle not a roundabout, with priority to tge right instead of to those in the circle.
Also, you'll notice there are two roads coming in from each side of a bridge, and a separate residential street on one side. Each of the roundabouts only dealt with 3 or 4 roads, perfectly adequate for a pair of roundabouts.
Textbook.
it's been changed
*fAlCiFicAtiOn oF hiStOrY* - what a lame excuse, the restoration of conventional beauty stings the eyes of those damned modernists.
I lived in Den Bosch from 2009 until 2013 it really was terrible for cyclists..
Now it's just terrible😂
"it wastes a lot less space" and then goes to show a vast grass field with nothing else happening on it. Not even trees, no scenery. Surely better than the asphalt, but still ...
its grass becouse the city isn't sure what to put on it
Als automobilist was dit echt niet zo vreselijk...kwestie van goed de borden volgen.
Borden volgen, was je enige juiste methode want het was niet logisch. Dus het was idd zo vreselijk als gesteld.
Paul vanRiet over het algemeen dien je op elke nieuwe locatie de borden te volgen ok bij je bestemming te komen..
Inderdaad. Maar zo rijdt men niet helaas. Men is liever bezig met autoradio, medepassagier, etc. Omdat het niet logisch was (simpel kruispunt dus), vonden vele mensen het een kwalitatief uitermate teleurstellend plein. Het plein was gewoon briljant ontworpen en werkte prima totdat het echt druk werd, maar dat geen enkel plein overleeft, ook het huidige niet. Sterker nog, ik denk dat het plein van Heetman beter zou functioneren als het huidige. Door de nieuwe randweg zullen we dat nooit weten.
@@bvdwielen Infrastructuur die eist dat alle gebruikers de borden perfect lezen en opvolgen omdat geen enkel onderdeel intuïtief herkenbaar is, is geen geschikte infrastructuur.
Just falsify history.
One of the worst intersections? Bullshit! Yes, it was difficult to navigate for people who didn't drive there regularly but looking at the amount of traffic that went through there? It's probably the best and only design possible to handle that much traffic and prevent continuous traffic jams.
"It was (is) a terrible place for anyone, but especially for people walking and cycling" AHAHAHA thats everyday life of german cyclists
same thing in the "glorious" USA
A falsifacation of history, haha.
What a downgrade.
I would call a safer junction that has a higher capacity and uses less space a down grade
Den Bosch sucks😉
Nee gij
Qua stappen dan, verder wel een leuke stad en gezellig volk 🥳
@@Noorman77 er is best veel te doen maar weinig dance, en zo
@@marcelschellekens6386 En dat willen we graag zo houden!