I just purchased a bat-safe. It’s just made of plastic. How does this not melt away during a lipo fire? Seems like metal with insulation is much safer or even an amo box would be better.
@@HeliGraphix i bought it directly from the bat-safe website. After looking again, I think it’s just a very very thin sheet of metal. Hopefully it is better than an amo box? Do you know if I can store more or bigger batteries in the bat-safe if they are at half charge? For example If I have 2 6s batteries 5200mah/50c, that’s 230.88WH and over the 222wh limit. Is the WH reduced at half charge? Thanks for the response by the way!
There are - and let me emphasize that this is not any sort of advice, just my very own personal opinion - three answers to this question: 1) Technically, if a battery is not fully charged (but be aware that the exact state of charge is difficult to measure!), then its actual energy content at this point in time will be less than a fully charged one. Likewise, an empty battery contains only very little energy. Meaning: less severe reaction is likely in the event of a fire. 2) From a liability standpoint, even empty batteries might count as full, so you're probably not going to be covered in the hypothetical event of a fire and Bat-Safe failure, even when - technically - the actual energy content of your batteries was well below the Bat-Safe's threshold limit. (Consider you'll have a hard time proving what the actual state of charge before the fire was). 3) From our findings, the Bat-Safe's official threshold limit is on the optimistically high end (you can see in the video that sparks may shoot out). Therefore, I'd stay well below their recommended max. Wh limit.
@@HeliGraphix thanks, would you say the better option would be to store one single battery inside a lipo bag, then put it in an amo box? Would this offer more protection than a bat-safe? It seems like a much cheaper solution and I could not tell that there was much protection difference from an amo box vs. A bat-safe from your test.
It's a personal choice. The lipo bag - again my opinion - won't do anything, so you can skip it. The ammo container should work as long as no flamable material is close, and when stored in a way/place so that the smoke cannot harm you. Personally, I got myself a Zarges Battery Safe. It will accept way more batteries and appears significantly more safe (still, smoke coming out), thus easier handling and all things considered also cheaper, at least for me.
Doing rc and airsoft I’m accumulating quite a lot of lipos…always stored in bags but been sceptical. Needed this video, thank you, eye opening! Off to grab some bag safes 👍
The beef I had with existing "tests" is that - if it was a fire test at all - only small batteries like 3s had been used, and that from the camera distance one did not see much. BTW, keep in mind that even this quite hefty load is just about half of what the BAT-Safe officially claims to be able to hold. Also note how the ammo box "balloons" after having lifted off for the second time. The learning is: let's store our lipos "empty" (40% charge is great). Much safer and a lot better for lipo longevity anyway.
I've had my three lipos in a lipo-bag since 2014, oh my,... I bought myself a bat-safe after watching only half of this video. So glad I found this video!!
Many of us have gone through the same realization. Marketing of the lipo bag vendors is just misleading (many of them propably don't even know themselves I'd guess) - it's all the more important we spread the word how dangerous these things are. Good choice you found a safer alternative for yourself Philip - and thanks for letting us know.
Great video my friend. I have just ordered Bat box today after having fire charging Spektrum radio baterrie. Scary stuff when it happens in the hangar. Thanks for posting and big salute from Slovenia, Pilot Robert
Thank you for this video, as a neighbor's house just burned to the ground due to an exploding Lithium-Ion battery. I'm now super-paranoid and am looking for a storage solution for 5 batteries I have that run chainsaw, drill, weed whacker, etc. No R/C stuff just power tools. What would you suggest? Currently, I put them in my cast iron woodstove, but come winter, that needs to change. Thanks!!
The cast iron wood stove is a good idea. In winter, you may store them in an ammo box or - safest but also most costly solution - the ZARGES battery safe. Unless you need constant access, keep the box outside/garage/tool shed, as in a thermal runaway the smoke may be toxic and is very hard to get rid of (again in the worst case may take weeks and repainting walls, also hard to clean furniture). Consider spreading the batteries over 2 boxes (if ammo), so that if something goes wrong, not all 5 batteries go off. It goes without saying that the boxes need to be stored on a non-flammable surface, away from combustible material (outside gets very hot and fire jest may come out). For longer term storage, charge your batteries to around 70% (not 100% as this will increase chances for a thermal runaway, make potential fires so much more violent, and it will also decreas your battery lifetime); for short term storage, charge to 40% and recharge only before use.
@@donnapope1004 Many batteries have 3 or 4 LEDs that activate when a button or the unlock mechanism is pressed. The LEDs indicate the state of charge, with all lighting up = full, and one meaning 33% or 25% respectively. When batteries don't have LEDs, the tool usually does. Upon pressing the trigger, the LEDs will light up and indicate the state of charge the same way as when they're on the battery.
@@HeliGraphix Ok - thanks. I didn't notice any LEDs on my batteries (other than the one that blinks while it's charging) or on the tools. I'll check again.
GREAT video. Thanks! My exact comments on "other" UA-cam vids on LIPO BAGS. Just use an ammo box(metal is harder to burn than so called material bags! Just throw your batteries in a small metal home strong box. Find those for under $20. I have a Harbor Freight - Bunker Hill I use. METAL(not a "material" bag) with a handle and key lock. Measures approx 8"x10" x 4". Closes pretty tight for those commenting about "feeding fires with oxygen". Nothing is 100% but it is peace of mind.
I was gonna get lipo guard bags for charging and an ammo box for storage. Guess i'm only getting the ammo box now. But for 40 bucks a box this is a great investment if you consider the prices of more professional solutions
I leave the rubber seal on the ammo case just on the corners so the latch will lock down properly… I cut away the rest on all four sides to let it breathe/vent out the gas
Thank you for your excellent videos. I modded my ammo box with a few holes and gromits at the front for charging with cables. I'm Realising now though that they will essentially be fire holes lol so will point it away in garage accordingly. I think I'll get another box just for storage. Would you get a box per battery? I'm using 2x RC 5200mah zeee lipo batteries.
The battery in our example had 115 Wh, as stated in part #1 of the series. I'd say much more than this and you should use an additional ammo box to store additional batteries. The Wh rating of your battery should be printed onto the outside. In case it isn't, simply multiply the 5.2 Ah capacity x the voltage, e.g. 5.2 Ah x 11.1 V = 58 Wh (note: to be on the safe side, better use the voltage of the fully charged battery, in this example 5.2 Ah x 12.6 V = 66 Wh). Since in our example both results are lower than 115 Wh, you should be good with one ammo container.
I would say the vent holes and the charging cable should come from the top the way the bat Safe does. That way the energy is trapping the box against the floor or whatever surface it on.
I’ve bought a few of these. I’ve noticed that on 1 the foam seal isn’t particular snug against the lip. Then I do a quick google and find another guy has discussed the same on a UA-cam video. Not sure how bigger deal it is, but would explain why in your video you see some gas escape from the edge.
Appreciate your sharing your findings! Honestly, the BatSafe seems to be not the highest of quality products. One would assume it will do the job, however the specified max. Wh rating of each safe appears to be on the very optimistic side. Personally I would not load them to the max. - with half you should be good. Either way, keep flammable material away as pressure bursts will inevitably escape through the seal. You'd need a ZARGES battery safe to prevent this.
@@HeliGraphixsince u say they’re not that good and I just received mine slightly dented on the outside and realized it’s smaller than I thought, Would you recommend a regular ammo box with the seal removed for my selection of like 450 Wh of batteries? Instead of buying two or three batsafe?
@@asbodo32 If you can store them away from flammable material, e.g. in a concrete garage, then the ammo boxes might be a suitable and more economical solution.
Have you tested/heard about the B&W 6040 li-io carry & store? It has the same cirrux as the zarges but it’s a plastic box. So I’m confused. The cushion will insulate and keep the temperature down, but wouldn’t just all melt?
Thanks for the heads-up. I had a look at the data sheet, and while it can do significantly less than the ZARGES case, it should still work nicely for our modeling purposes. The plastic material does leave a bit of a feeling of uneasiness, but they seem to be certified. I guess that to be on the very safe side I'd still want to go with the ZARGES aluminum cases, but surely I'd like to test one of the B&W myself. They're more light-weight, thus handling could be better.
I've just bought my first drone, and I didn't realise how potentially dangerous these batteries are, I'm terrified about having them in the house now. Lol.
Normally they're fine and nothing happens. But things such as drops, (over-)heating in the car, moisture, etc. can always occur, and you may suffer from the symptoms only days and several charge cycles later. Most people do not realize that there can be such a delay from cause to effect. This is why you should always store them safely. Choose one of the safer options shown in the videos.
What do you recommend if you have dozens of phones, laptops, laptop batteries, battery banks and other items and travel often, but have to leave these items at home while you're away? Do you pack them all up and stick them in the BatSafe out in the yard while you're gone, away from the home, or do you fully drain every battery down to 0 and trust they'll be fine in your drawers and shelves? What's the solution here for high technologists with lots of battery gear?
The answer to this is actually an easy one: the ZAEGES battery box/safe ticks all your boxes. It has enough space to accomodate your portfolio, it has the necessary (even certified) Wh rating for said portfolio, and it is the safest option of them all. The price tag is higher for one unit, but when compared to how many BAT-Safes, etc. you would need to buy (and the hassle with all these separate boxes), then you're likely better off with the ZARGES solution also in terms of cost per battery stored. There are different versions of the Battery Box/Safe on their website (to my knowledge they also sell through resellers and on Amazon, at least some of their products). Note: when you leave, place the Battery Box in a room that is either ventilated (garage), or from where potential smoke and smell cannot easily get to the rest of the house. Getting rid of the smell takes weeks and is not healthy. Another important note: do not drain your batteries to 0 and store them - it will destroy them. Rather, store them discharged at 30% SOC. If you plan long-term storage, charge to 65% SOC and then check every 6-9 months and recharge to said level.
Who keeps a phone in a battery storage bag how convenient is that. Statistically how risky are phones causing fires at home there are billions of them yes there are fires, but I would bet it's same as winning a lottery.
@@Mike-01234 He's talking about an assortment of batteries when he's on a business trip, not a single phone he wants to put there like every day. Statistics is a bitch: 0.something sounds low - unless you're the one affected. Sounds stupid but happened to me on one occasion which had a grave health effect (not related to lithium batteries).
@@HeliGraphix everything in life comes with a risk…. You’re right, when it happens to you, you don’t care about the odds. but when we drive a car, we’re not wearing a five point harness, full face helmet, eye protection, flame retardant suit and steel toe shoes, but that would make us safer . Heck most of us don’t even follow the speed limit, and that would make us safer. With all the batteries we have between laptops, cell phones, power tools , toys, cameras, flashlights, Back up power sources, etc., we have accepted some risk. I’m not aware of any person or even any business that tries to store these items in a fireproof container when not use. Go to a fire department and see what they do with there stuff. …they don’t I haven’t research this, but I am guessing that most of the time these battery fires occur with a battery that has been damaged, or abused, or is being charged incorrectly, What are we supposed to store our electric vehicles in?
What would you recommend for long ebike batteries? I have a 19.75in ebike battery and it's hard enough just finding a carrying case for it let alone lipo protection.
Hey Dee, as said in the previous comment, with such high-energy batteries it might be a good idea to consider the ZARGES battery safe. I believe this here is their latest version, in the video it even shows exactly your application: ua-cam.com/video/ag-3Hyk9w9s/v-deo.html. It's expensive but should last a lifetime, doubles as a carrying case and will even accomodate more than one such high-energy batteries. Someone here in the comments section contacted their customer support; check out that thread, it was interesting info.
@@HeliGraphix Thanks but I don't think that would fit my battery by the look of it and I wouldn't want to store multiple ebike batteries in one case. If one battery is messed up wouldn't it compromise a good battery? I have different ebikes, batteries and sizes. It would be best for them each to have their own storage if possible.
I'd say that most likely there won't be a fire incident, so a scenario where you store the batteries together should not be of concern. If - worst case - a battery does go off, your only real concern will be safety. And that's what this box will do for you. What matters is that you, your family and your property will be unharmed. You'll always be able to buy a new battery, or two if need be. I remember that the older ZARGES K470 battery box had compartments so that one burning battery did not set those in the neighboring compartments on fire. Would need to verify that but believe that's exactly why that box had 3 compartments.
I live in an apartment. I have 8 lipo batteries. 2s 3s and 4s. They’re all in a lipo bag, inside another larger lipo bag case. What’s my best option to store these safely? I could cram it all in to a metal toolbox or something or ammo box. I’d like to keep them outside on my deck in a lightly sealed Rubbermaid tote but I worry about the cold and the heat. What are some safe options for us apartment livers?
The bags won't do much - if anything - for you. Better store them in a metal container in a corner of your apartment with as little flammable material as possible. It should NOT be the room you sleep or spend most of your time in. The smoke produced in case of a thermal runaway can be veryt toxic (depends on the very chemistry of your specific lipo). It is also wise not to store them all in the same container, so that not all of them will go off if one catches on fire. Keep in mind that even if your apartment does not burn down due to correct storage in metal containers, the smoke will cause your apartment to be unusable; it will need full decontamination and subsequent renovation by experts. I've witnessed this personally, it happened to a good friend of mine.
@@HeliGraphix so this smoke contaminated a room in my home. It has been about a month now and the smell is dying off but it is very faint still. We never decontaminated the room. But keep in mind the fire occurred without a fireproof box.. which was my mistake.
What if you arranged ordinary cinder blocks, with no mortar, in a way that overlapped each other, but still allowed gasses and smoke to be released, but no shooting parts could get past, and then covered it with a heavy piece of metal or tiles, with cinder blocks on top, and then charged your battery on top of one cinder block in the middle of this cinder block fire box? Please build something like that and set an e-bike battery on fire inside it and do a video. Thanks!
It sounds like this could work well in terms of controlling the spread of fire. Also, it should be scalable to a degree. Battery transportation on the other hand won't be possible. Since the smoke is toxic and tends to stay around for weeks, it would still be advisable to have this steup in a well ventilated or at least "compartmented" area to avoid the spreading as much as possible.
@@HeliGraphix OK, thanks, it would be outside in an open area away from buildings. In the rare case that a battery burns, I am mostly concerned with containing the fire, not the smoke.
I use an old metal ammo box for mine. It still has the rubber seal in place, but has a ½" hole in it with a rubber grommit for a charge lead to go through and to vent excess gas. This is stored on a concrete floor in a garage such that the hole is pointed out into open space and therefore won't cause issues. I'm thinking of moving it to my workbench and using fire bricks to insulate the outside of the can on the bottom and back, just so I can access the whole setup more easily.
nice. thanks! while i wait for a metal box, how about i store lipos in a metal thermos bottle? it does also have a hole for venting in case of issues, and i'll make sure the vent is directioned towards something that does not burn 😃
The blast/fire jets of the individual cells would destroy the inner insulating "mirror chamber" (usually surrounded by a vacuum which is the actual insulation), leaving the steel casing but also the plastic parts of the bottle exposed to the enormous temperatures. If the steel casing didn't have any plastic parts, then it might work. Keep in mind though that the bottle will reach up to 700 degrees Celsius, thus may set on fire any flammable materials nearby and potentially the surface it will stand on, or might roll onto in case it were to tip over. All in all the ammo box (or professional alternatives) seems to be a better solution.
I used to not put to much thought into lipo safety. As I started flying larger helicopters that have larger batteries I started to become more nervous. Not only have I since then collected a decent stock pile of all sizes, my largest lipos are 12s 3300 which would be catastrophic if they melted down.
Hi Ty, yes it does. Any type of Li-battery that does not exceed the respective container's specs will be stored "safely". As an info, cylindrical cells are what most "hard cartridge" battery packs are made of (i.e. power tool or bike batteries and even those of cars).
In the video you see the effect of a 6s 5000 mAh battery. I would say it is reasonably well contained. Theoretically the BAT-Safe should be able handle two of these. It is my personal opinion that this will not work; I feel that 110 Wh of energy as used in the video (doesn't matter if one big or multiple smaller batteries as they'll all go off together) is about the reasonable limit. That would be half of what the manufacturer claims.
@@HeliGraphix It's good the solution exists but most of us have 10-20 batteries, that's a lot of Bat-safes. I'm not sure if there's a good, easy and convenient solution for storing them yet. I guess that's just lipos.
Fully agree. This is why I'm using two Zarges battery boxes now (see part 3 of the lipo video series). They swallow a LOT of batteries, plus the compartments will prevent lipos in other compartments from also burning down if one goes off. More budget solution (and more convenient) than many BAT-Safes. Good for storage at home, but not good for transport to e.g. the flying field.
This is not entirely correct. 2x 3s 2200 mAh is the equivalent of either 1x 3s 4400 mAh (when you hook them up in parallel), or 1x 6s 2200 mAh (when you hook them up in series). Both is equivalent to 2x 24,4 Wh (= ~50 Wh). A 3s 5600 mAh battery however stores 11,1V * 5,6Ah = 62,2 Wh. The medium-sized Bat-Safe is rated for 222 Wh; our experiments suggest that you should not load it with more than ~120 Wh, though. The Bat-Safe MINI your are referring to is rated for 50 Wh, so you cannot use that one to store a 62,2 Wh battery, even if that would be possible with regard to the battery's dimensions. Instead, you need to buy the medium-sized version.
@@HeliGraphix thanks! I ordered a medium. Why do you not reccomend going over 120 even if it’s rated for 244? I want to be able to store 2 3s 5600 mah. If i charge one fully so it becomes 4.2v om each cell x3 x5.6 its 70.56wh. If i store another battery which is storage charged its 63,84wh and than together is 132.72wh. I just wonder if it would be safe to store 2 in the box. I know the regular bags are almost useless but I would store the batteries in a bag too inside the bat safe
@@t3floz You should be good storing these two in the medium sized version. The battery used in our video was 115 Wh, i.e. not even half of the rating - and already here you could see that not all fire was contained. So doubling the amount of energy stored to the max. rating doesn't exactly inspire confidence. If there's nothing flammable around it might work, but better safe than sorry.
Hello . Thanks for your videos. I have at home two lipos 2s 4000mah for my starter box. I am worried to have it at home. Then...do you think the bat safe is a good solution? Thanks and excuse me , my english is not good.
Hi Alejandro, yes, this is a good idea for your purposes. Each of your 2s 4 Ah lipos has about 30 Wh of energy, so both of them amount to 60 Wh. The small Bat-Safe ist rated for up to 220 Wh (but this I would see as very borderline), thus it will easily be sufficient for you. The Bat-Safe XL is rated for up to 500 Wh so would accomodate even several batteries of your type. However it's better to keep the risk low and spread - in case one had many - lipos over multiple safes rather than storing them all in one safe; in case of fire they would all burn. But again, in your case one small Bat-Safe seems perfect.
Any ideas on what we could use for a filter on an ammo box? Was even thinking that maybe the fire resistant cloth used to protect walls when soldering for copper plumbing may work.
Real filtering of harmful fumes - as opposed to preventing fire jets from shooting out - is a difficult topic. You'd need a highly absobing material such as active coal (flammable though), plus ensure a minimum contact time with the fumes so the filtering can be effective. While any filter is arguably better than no filter, I doubt that without adding a siginificant filtration layer any effect will be observable.
@@HeliGraphix Agree with your points. Instead of rigorous filtering to safe levels, I'm after something similar to what the bat-safe does. It appears to reduce the amount of smoke as well as make it less damaging. I bought a couple bat-safes to try out but have quite a few ammo cans that I wouldn't mind retrofitting with cement board and some sort of high temperature smoke filter.
@@MrGantzFan have you figured out a way to filter the smoke? Carbon filter seems good but the heat generated from the burning battery will make it catch on fire
Just got my first 6S drone, received my ammo box today, is it best to also charge the batteries inside the case by making a small hole for charging wire to go through?
@@HeliGraphix yes I would always be in the room when charging, guess the only problem with charging it in a ammo box you can't see what's going on inside, guess I could leave the lid open at least it still would be protected with metal sides?
I'd close the lid. Normally when something happens it goes fast. Also, you won't realistically be able to peek into the box regularly. Under normal circumstances all will be fine and you'll never need the extra protection; but when something goes wrong, then the ammo box and the closed lid will be your insurance. And you'll be very happy you got it.
@@HeliGraphix Thank you, your right I will close the lid when charging, also the charger in using is the I Max B6 mini, it charges upto 6S and has always been a great charger for my 2S batteries but I was worried how it will cope with a6S?
I think both will not work reliably. Consider that always having to charge to (or bring down to) and then double-check that you really store it at your spcified 50% SoC is prone to error. For such high energy densities you are better off with a professional solution such as (or based on) the Zarges battery safe.
@ thank you for your insight. Discharging it isn’t a big issue, as I need to store the battery off season. Zarges seems to have a usual k470 box and battery safe one. Is the difference only in the fiberglass lining for battery safe box?
For containers large enough and without an accessible penetration possibility, it was thermally induced. Otherwise mechanically. We made sure that this does not - to a significant extent - influence the outcome of the experiments.
@@HeliGraphix Thank you for the answer! What was the charge level of the cell and which type of 18650 were used? How much additional energy was needed to start the thermal runaway?
Batteries were fully charged, I believe it was Panasonic cells. Thermal runaway is relatively easy to start by remotely overheating one cell e.g. with a small torch light; it then propagates violently on its own.
You need a small opening for the charging cable - other than that, yes. Fire jets may emerge through any kind of opening, but there needs to be a release for the pressure/(potentially toxic) smoke anyway. So overall it's probably one of the safest ways among the simple methods.
I want to keep a 48v 13ah ebike battery in an ammo box (I’ve checked, the best ammo box for my size battery is a 40cal ammo box) would this be safe to do so , I will remove rubber like your video suggests. Should I drill small vent holes in the lid? Also I think lining the inside with plaster board will help do you agree?
Basically yes, this might still work. Consider that 624 nominal Wh (fully charged it'll be even more) is *A LOT*. A venting hole thus seems like a good idea as the pressure buildup inside would likely be pretty massive in case of a thermal runaway. Thus the box would bulge and blow open somewhere. A drywall board lining is a good idea, too. With such high Wh numbers as your e-bike battery you might want to take a look at the ZARGES solution (Battery Safe) like in their video here: ua-cam.com/video/ag-3Hyk9w9s/v-deo.html. It's expensive but will last a lifetime, doubles as a carrying case and will even accomodate more than one such high-energy batteries. There's a thread somewhere here in the comments section where someone contacted their customer support; maybe check that out, too, it's interesting to read.
Add a plastic bag filled with sand ontop on the battery. Sand will stop fire before it all burns up, so the safe "should" be able to handle more energy.
can you make a part 4 and use an ammo container that does not have the seal taken out to show people what happens if you don't take the seal out of them
Already with the seal taken out the ammo container bulges significantly. Quite likely, with the seal in place, it would blow open at its weakest point, followed by a sharp fire jet. An explosion cannot be excluded, it all depends on how tightly the container closes and how fast/violent the reaction goes off.
I'm not sure I understand the question correctly, but you can always use a good cable of sufficent "diameter", solder respective connectors to each end, and plug it in between the end of your charger's cable and the battery (thereby effectively extending the length of your charging cable).
@@HeliGraphix yeah I'm ngl, I don't have the guts to do that with a lipo, thats why Im seeking an extension lead for the battery without me soldering etc. This is the only reason why I've not purchased the sledge. I use lipos for RC air craft, but if I can't charge safely with traxxas ill have to give it a miss. Which sux because I really want a sledge
i was looking taht video!! ty!! I will place the lipo in a lipo safe bag and then in a metal box,is it right? can i charge a lipo battery in that green metal army box or it will increase the temperature my friend?? ty
I'm not sure I understand you correctly, but you can charge your batteries inside the green metal box. Additionally having them in a lipo bag will most likely not make a difference.
@@HeliGraphixthat's what i did!! i returned the bag and i buy this metal green box to make holes upside and then i will place that box in a portable freezer not to warm the metal box.THANKS for that video,helped a lot!!
I've got a sheetrock lining a very large ammo can for 12s pack storage. The flames and heat are contained. The one thing that I haven't tried to contain is the HORRIBLE fine sooty, smelly, sticky smoke that comes from a LiPO fire. It gets everywhere and the smoke ruins EVERYTHING it touches. I had a 5000mAH pack mysteriously let loose. It was in a 12S stick pack, so 2 high C Pulse packs went nuclear. They were in my garage. Even with the door open there was soot and tar covering my car, the walls, the floor, and the ceiling. I don't know but if there were flames it might have at least burned that terrible black oily soot; it's like lamp-black. The large ammo can contained open flames. That box you showed with the built in filters looks like it would have helped me with the soot. I might try a stack of steel wool to cool the hot gases with several layers of fiberglass filter material. So if this happens again, I won't have to hire a fire and water restoration team to scrub my garage.
Great comment! The exact same thing happend to a friend's basement (5s pack in a cash box, also with sheetrock lining). Had to wash/repaint but the smell was all over the house for weeks. Personally I doubt you can efficiently filter it, the pressure and amount of gas generated is too much. Better have sort of a pipe guide the gases outside. Re. steel wool for cooling, please be aware that due to its high surface it catches fire quite easily (they show it in firestop trainings all the time). Active coal usually does a good job of adsorbing all kinds of chemicals; but again the gases/chemicals need enough time to adsorb to the filter material. I've seen sophisticaed solutions for all problems, however I think we all look for simple and easily scalable solutions. On the positive side re. your situation - as bad as it truly was - the ammo box worked and your garage didn't burn down.
I have mine in a box like this, also taken out the rubber seal. then drilled 8 holes in the top. It's standing on a layer of building bricks, which i believe can handle temperatures of up to 900 degrees C. add to that a fire alarm close to the box. I'm not sure how likely a total battery failure is like seen in the video. But it freaking scares me, when i come home to people and see them, having fully charges lips in a drawer somewhere, or just in box in the bedroom. I know you cannot plan for everything, but imo with lipo, you better be safe than sorry.
I have 2 3s 5000MAH 11.1v each (traxxas) batteries. What do you recommend I use to store them? (Whatever one I get I will still keep my batteries inside the bag I have and put the bag inside the box) I like how you can charge with the bat safe but ammo box seem more safe (I was also thinking about covering the batteries with sand inside the ammo box) I also have carpet all in my house so I’m also worried about exterior temp burning surroundings
You should be able to store all 3 of them in a BAT-Safe, so that is an option. The ammo can should work equally well with the limitation of the fire jets (so keep the surroundings clear and put it on e.g. inflammable stone tiles). The sand is a mess every single time, I wouldn't do this. The lipo bag I'd also not use - it's a hassle and no real additional protection. Any solution is only good if it is practial - otherwise after a few times one will stop using it.
Ok thank you, one last question. What size Bat safe box do you recommend for my batteries? I have two 3s 5000mah each and I have 8 small drone batteries too 2s 1500 mah each
@@CRno25 When fully charged (and that should be your calculation scenario), you have 2x 63 Wh + 8x 12,6 Wh = 226,8 Wh to store. The smaller BAT-Safe is rated 222 Wh, so *theoretically* that should work. In reality, it's (a) probably too small for the number of batteries, and (b) the experiments we did suggest you should not load it significantly beyond half the rated Wh (= be safe and store up to ~120 Wh). Therefore, if you buy the XL version rated 500 Wh, you should be good from both point of Wh and storage space.
@@HeliGraphix ok thank you again I’ll just get two bat safe boxes to keep my drone and land rc batteries separate. Medium for land and mini for drone 😄
@@CRno25 Makes sense! :) Additional advantage, should something go wrong, then not only will the mayhem be less, but also will it only destroy the batteries within the same enclosure.
Sorry, missed your second question. Somehow the system has stopped sending me notifications to replies. I believe that the 222 Wh in a bat safe, when fully charged, are very borderline. But I'm sure they've tested it appropriately.
Great video thank you! Watching a lot of videos lately on UA-cam re LiPo’s has honestly got me a little anxious, would like some confirmation from some people that are experienced in this subject please as I am new to using this class of battery. My lipo’s are in good condition, always balance charge them with a smart charger, check the cells are equal and when not using for a few days, I put them in storage mode (3.8v) and keep them in separate lipo bags when then in turn are placed in a batbox which is then placed inside a large fireproof lipo holdall, I then keep these in my garage. Is this a safe enough procedure please? I just would like to know if I am covering all bases.
You are not complete unless you now buy a tank for any type of transportation ;) Should this comment not meant to be fun/troll comment, then my very personal opinion is you're overcomplicating things. Safety or any process, for that matter, is only effective if it is sustainable. Going through a procedure like you describe it may sound perfect, however the ordeal of all of it will prompt you to take short cuts sooner than later. Safety is effective when the measures are effective & at the same time achievable with reasonable effort. I hope this helps.
@@HeliGraphix Thank you for replying. No I don’t mind these extra steps I take, I just want to know if this is safe enough please? For when I am storing my LiPO’s, thats all! I wont take short cuts because I want to stay safe.
@@ukmonk I'd say if you store your lipos in BatSafes, not filling them to max capacity (i.e. if it's rated for 220 Wh, store no more than 160 - 180 Wh), and keep those BatSafes in a corner of your garage with no flamable material within 4 feet, that should be reasonably safe while at the same time allow good access.
Thanks for the video. So, the verdict seems to still be out on this “blow the lid” projected scenario. Are you privy to any experiments being done with lipo’s in an ammo box without the seal being removed and the lid being completely sealed prior to “detonation?” Just curious what would really happen if there’s no access to oxygen if and when a Lipo were to go bad. PLMK of any other videos that may show the “sealed shut” example. Stay safe and MERRY CHRISTMAS!!! 🎄😎👍🏼🎄
In the ZARGES battery safe they are selaed off - the result is largely the same (we've also tested it in a newer version but no time to edit and post it). The thermal runaway does not depend on oxygen; I understand the logic, but it all happens nonetheless. I have footage of batteries "suffocated" with powder, and after a while the thermal runaway just continues. I also have footage of drowned batteries, it's again the same. Only difference in the latter case is that afte some time, due to the strong cooling effect of the water, the reaction will die down (side note: avoid extinguishing with water as, depending on cell chemistry, metallic lithium will react with water and form hydrogen which in turn may lead to an explosion). If the sealing around the lid is left in place, at some point the pressure needs to vent. So - at a "random" (= weakest) point - the box will blow open and a huge fire jet will shoot out or even move/turn over/throw down your box. You will want more control over this process, this is why you should remove the seal. In case of ZARGES, where the box is quite massive and heavier, this will happen in a much more controlled way, thus you can leave the seal in place here.
No oxygen? You mean like a salami in a pot of oil? Can’t be a fire if there is no oxygen. But do you want to store your Lipo in oil? It’s a good idea if you use your Lipo in a submarine or saltwater boat. That’s the only good application. Everything else is not practical
One of your LiPo batteries is 6.7 Ah x 8 x 3.7 V = 198 Wh. The small Bat-Safe is rated for 220 Wh, thus will accomodate one of your batteries. My personal experience is that you should store only significantly less than 220 Wh in it, thus already your single pack is borderline. The Bat-Safe XL is advertised for up to 500 Wh, thus would accomodate two of your batteries. The latest version of the ZARGES battery safe (see pt. #3 of this video series) is a handy size and would safely accomodate 5 or even more of your packs.
Are you supposed to close the ammo box like that? I mean if it won’t burn through the metal, wouldn’t it be safe enough assuming there’s nothing nearby that can burn easily. Keeping it closed like that might be more dangerous. See the other one has vents
There's some truth in that. I'd still close it because the reaction partly is very violent as one can see, and burning battery parts might otherwise shoot out. I've recently tested the latest version of the ZARGES battery safe, and this one is great. Tightly sealed, stays "cold", yet no fire jets. Got the video, just need to find the time to sum it up and edit it.
I would think that you would not have to remove the gasket from the ammo box, but i am no expert. The walls are way to thin to ever build up enough pressure to create an explosion. And the seal is just soft rubber, pressure would just blow it out. But maybe it is necessary to remove the gasket to keep the walls intact from whatever pressure that is created and could bulge the walls, thereby exposing the fire to the outside. I store all my lithium batteries in ammo boxes unless they are LiFePO4 chemistry, UL certified or manufactured by main stream companies (i.e. Samsung, Jackery, etc.).
Removing the seal allows a bit of controlled ventilation. The box would otherwise blow open in an upredictable way, causing fire jets which - as it is obvious - could have the opposite effect of what you were trying to achieve by placing the batteries in the ammo box. But you are right that there likely would not be an explosion in the sense of a destructive shock wave.
The problem with removing all of the gasket is that the lid no longer latches. Perhaps the solution is to remove half, or most, of the gasket so there is still pressure against the latching mechanism. Otherwise, without the gasket, you pick up the ammo can and the lid flops open.
@@squarebody4546 I believe to remeber that also after removing the seal the box did latch (i.e. did not open by itself when lifting it up), but we didn't really test this, thus can't say for sure. I do like the idea of partial gasket removal, thanks for sharing.
Likely not as 15 Wh won't do much. Keep in mind though that the ammo box will still get quite hot and you might have burn marks on the wooden floor. To prevent this, consider a piece of drywall under the ammo box.
I have never had problems with my lipos and I have 14 of them and high voltage like Revolectrix, Gens Ace, SMC, I just keep them in a place with cool temperature and with 3.8v per cell and that's it
Most of us have the same positive experience. But that's not the point. Even after years of no problem you may face a faulty pack. With production under pressure to become cheaper and cheaper, they tend to use e.g. the flimsier (but cheaper) Chinese separators rather than those from eg U.S. suppliers. The chemistry constantly changes, too. So to be prepared for the day you run out of luck, that's where these storage solutions come into play.
@@HeliGraphix I understand you brother, that's why you have to buy quality, not all Chinese batteries are good, as I told you I have many and a long time Revolectrix, SMC, Gens Ace even phanter are great, I always check that they are not inflated, in good temperature and With tape on the connectors, another thing if you put all the lipo in that box and one explodes they will all screw up, I say I think
@@nossrc5638 ...the solution isn’t the LiPo, it’s the storage.... if you store max. 2 LiPos in one of those safes, you will be fine in an incident. If you do it like you do, the incident isn’t likely but if it happens, the heat is literally on...!😉
This is a good point, I'd like to know, too. Word has it that the filtering of the BAT-Safe does not live up to the marketing claims. As you say, we'd need to take smoke samples from within the box and compare it to the filtered smoke. Or directly test the filter in the lid under controlled conditions.
Is a LiPo at the same danger-level as the Li-Ion ? I have a bunge of Li-Ion for Cameras and so on. So i was thinking about buying me a small Bat-Box for charging and a tall one for storage. :) Could you help me with an opinion of yours?
LiPo is essentially just a version of Li-Ion. This said, there are dozens of different Li-Ion chemistries out there. Overall, the "danger level" is the same (with the exception of Li-Iron-Phosphate being very "stable" and forgiving). What makes LiPo more vulnerable is that they mostly come in pouches. Generally, Li batteries are a good and also safe technology; as with every manufacturing process, there are faults every so and so many items being produced. And under unfortunate circumstances such a faulty battery may not go dead but instead end in a thermal runaway. If you want to be on the safe side, a storage solution like the Bat-box should save you from greater harm in the unlikely yet possible event of a thermal runaway.
@@HeliGraphix Okay thanks for the quick answer, but what do you reommend: How many batteries should i put in one Bat Box and in one Military Case. I mean to much batteries are not good right ? Like i described i wanted to use one normal Bad-Safe for charging and a militarybox/xl-Batsafe for storage. I mean it also would make sense to split the important batteries from the unimportant i guess? (Btw. i saw my native language in your video as text, if it´s easier for you to text in german that would be fine :D)
There is a technical answer, and then there is an "organizational" answer. The technical one arguably is the easier one: multiplying the nominal battery voltage with the amp hours of the battery (e.g. 11 Volts x 2,2 Ah = 24,2 Wh). Each battery box is rated with a max. Wh that it can hold. So you can calculate how many batteries you may charge/store inside. Regarding Bat-box, to be on the safe side I'd leave a safety margin of 30 - 50%. For the ammo box there is of course no official rating, but from the videos you may draw your own conclusions. The organizational answer: it may make sense to divide the batties (and fewer batteries in one compartment is always safer). However, the thermal runaway scenario is not your standard scenario; meaning you store them in safe boxes for the unlikely event that one of the batties goes off. And when this happens, the boxes will do their job. Whether a battery more survives or not is then pretty much secondary. So personally I would not necessarily split them up - but for your case, only you can answer that question. The one split that does make sense in my opinion: if you have batteries that you don't trust, i.e. which are more likely to go off. To store these separately from the "good ones" makes sense.
Same result: at first bag #1 will fail, and right after bag #2. Given how fast the bags disintegrate you may not even notice any significant difference. Metal container it is!
The ebike batteries have too much energy and exceed the BatSafe's rating (side note: you should stay significantly below its stated limit). Also, most of them won't fit in.
Very strange, I'm sure I'd replied to your comment already. Anyways, basically an idea that will work if executed with precision, and joints sealed properly (except a venting hole). Way easier would be to use the ammo box as an outer casing and to line it with the drywall. It won't solve the general venting issue but should keep the outside temperature much lower.
Be sure to inspect your batteries before using. They they are bulging, despose of them properly. Dont throw them in tge trash. You dont want a fire when it gets to the landfill or in the garbage truck.
Correct thinking based on the experiment that shows the ammo can bulging even without the rubber seal. Just make sure that fire jets which may shoot out cannot ignite anything. Thanks for sharing.
I've seen solutions using a drywall lining. In one case a 6s battery went off and the case did well in containing the fire. The soot however was everywhere (they had to repaint the nearby walls) and for about 6 weeks the entire house smelled pretty aggressively like burnt material. Preventing the environment from catching fire is one thing, dealing with the smoke is another. There is - to my knowledge - no ultimate solution though, also not BAT-Safe.
i charge my batteries without a box or bag at home have for many years. ive charged dozens of different lipos hundreds or maybe thousands of times and never had a problem with lipos catching on fire. i think charging to fast and going below the recommended cut off is what causes fire. not saying it cant happen but 99% of the time it is going to be user error that causes fire.
Same here. But I have 3 friends who weren't as lucky, and all of them pay lots of attention to detail (one of them luckily had a homebuilt metal case in place, probably saved his house). In general lithium batteries are safe. But there's roughly a one in a million chance for a faulty battery (single cell!), and somebody is that "unlucky winner". Considering that every battery contains several cells and that many people own more than one battery, that's quite a probability that sooner or later things might go South. Now, by far not every faulty cell leads to a fire; in fact, most will simply die and/or degrade battery performance. Still, in case the counting-out rhyme chooses you, you might want to be prepared.
@@HeliGraphix ive never had a faulty cell on a lipo. i have even ran a gens ace that was puffed to the point it was splitting the case and no fire. then was going to dispose of it and my friend wanted it and he ran it like that for along time but i wouldnt recommend that. ive found lipos to be just as safe as any other battery. thats why they use them in phones, drills, saws, flashlights....etc. no one puts those in fire proof cases when charging these things. i have several friend that never had problems with lipos ether. not sure why your 3 friends have had lipo fires that is odd to me. ive had several brands from smc, gens ace, sky lipo, turnigy, gforce, china hobby line, zippy, spc, goldbatt...etc. never had a problem with none of them. some perform better than other thats all. the sky lipo i bought in 2013 or 2014 and it still works great. if you balance charge at 1c and dont over gear your car or over prop your plane, dont over charge and always storage charge after your finished i cant see a lipo catching fire but it is always a good idea to be safe.
Thanks for the details! My personal experience is almost the same as yours. Still, there are many fires also with laptops, phones and power tools. Some time back I was involved as a consulter and looking into such cases. It's more than you would think. Not many in relation to the huge number of cells manufactured, but then again, some of them will fail and a small portion of them will end in a thermal runaway. I agree that a good deal of these could also have been prevented by better handling/storing. At the end it all comes down to "better safe than sorry" - same as the airbag. Luckily, I have never needed one of these either. Yet I wouldn't want to drive without one. With lithium batteries it's a personal choice everyone needs to make.
Not to my knowledge. Might be a good idea, just need to find a way to deal with that very hot (but then directional and thus theoretically controllable) fire and smoke exhaust jet.
Or instead of drilling, remove the seals from the ammo can allowing pressure to escape and line it with Fiberglass or ceramic wool. Can get some scraps from a refractory supply house.
Personally I'd recommend multiple small boxes over one big box. Otherwise all it takes it one battery to go off to destroy the rest. If you only have 2-3 batteries it won't be that much more expensive, if you have 10 it would be stupid to put them all in one box anyway
This makes sense. Given that the catastrophic scenario is/should be the exception, then in case it does happen, saving the other batteries probably isn't the biggest concern, though. Yet again, having fewer batteries on fire is way better. The ZARGES container has different compartments where they claim/tested that the fire won't spread over to other compartments and set those batteries on fire, too. I think it depends on your storage situation at home, if/how often you need to transport the batteries, and at which SOC (state of charge) you typically store them at. Either way, if you can, not putting all eggs into one basket is probably a smart idea. Thanks for your contribution.
I just wondering how big of a problem this really is, aside from charging? Yes, we all know that a Lithium battery that's gone bad can be a danger. We know that a LiPo that you think is good, but are charging can unexpectedly turn on you, just like a Pitbull. But just sitting around, especially if properly discharged to storage levels? Is this _really_ happening enough to worry about?
Risk is defined as potential damage x likelihood of its occurence. So even when the likelihood is low, a high potential damage (e.g. loss of property) still makes for a measurable risk. The question thus is - and everybody needs to individually evaluate that for themselves -, can you afford to burn down?
@@HeliGraphix you can look at it that way, but you could look at many things in life that way… do we always eat well, can you afford a heart attack or cancer? Do we wear all the safety equipment we could or do we always drive the speed limit, can we afford death by accident or being crippled by accident? We go swimming in the ocean, can the family afford me being eaten by a shark? We go outside on a cloudy day, where are the odds getting hit by lightning? However, I do agree you need to value the risk and put a cost to it . I worked in Naval air engineering for years and we always did a risk cube, and you measure the likelihood of it happening and the probability of happening and the cost of prevention and repair…. If we want to avoid the risk, the best thing is to pick another hobby that doesn’t involve Lipo batteries
do the test leaving the seal in the ammo box, you may be surprised and get a better result, it won't explode trust me, if you want i'll even provide you with the box for the test
I'm not sure as I'd seen a video on the net (with rubber seal in place) where an ammo box blew open violently at one corner with a fire jet coming out. In my video here you can see how the very sturdy ammo box balloons more and more with every cell going off. So yes it won't "explode" but the desired result - namely fire protection - I doubt will be achieved better by not removing the rubber seal. I think it's rather the opposite.
I Charge my lipos in a batbox but because if have so many i would need to buy 10 boxes to storage all. So i use one to Charge and Transport them and the Others are at 3.8v in an old coalgrill in my Garage with nothing flamable in 2m range. But till now i got lucky and nothing happend.
I had the same problem, thus bougth a Zarges Battery-Safe for storage. They have new version with better dimensions. I'll see if I can get one for fire-testing and will post a video around August. I'll also test a simple metal box in addition as some have suggested to do so. Let's see how it'll work out.
@@fruitycoconut i have never seen someone puting a single lipopack in a double can cover. So yeah, I call it a kind of "invention". And yes it is like an ammo box. But it's just an additional "peel" of the "onion".
@@Sugalime3D_FPV that's what i'm saying. The original invention was patented decades ago. That's why It's not an invention. You only enhanced something that's already exists. If I stick an hammer on my phone, it's not an invention. But if I create an hammer wich can take pictures or do phonecalls and nail things , that's an invention and I can patent it, a pretty dumb invention, but still.
There are three reasons: (1) I'm doing this in my spare time and am very limited in what I can output. Knowing this situation, I wasn't sure if I'd manage to go through the whole content (remember this is way more than the final cut-down you are seeing on YT) - so I divided it into smaller chunks hoping to eventually output it all. (2) Second reason was that some people are looking for a specific piece of information only (actually I'm the same type of person), thus splitting it topic-wise makes sense. (3) From the beginning I've thought of this as an ongoing series. I've meanwhile further interesting tests available but not found the time to go through it for over a year. Maybe I need to break down also this one, otherwise it looks like I'm never going to get startet (no time!!!).
I'd say they're not explicit, but it's somehow implied. Yet they cannot and don't. This said, while we would still need to see whether the filter has any effect at all, any filtering is arguably better than none.
The bag won't make a difference, so the cheap solution is the metal box only. You might use drywall as a lining, that keeps the heat away better. The metal case should be stored away from flammable material/surfaces as short fire jets could still come out and the case can get very hot.
The ammo box has no insulation so its outside temperature is pretty much the same as inside. The BAT-Safe does have some insulation so will be considerably less; I have to say we didn't measure that one (should have done it though). It was too hot to open by hand so I'd guess between 100 and 200 Celsius (the smoke burst potentially exceeding this).
Top fpv must have! and the smoke is so filtered u can breath it technically lol.. I wouldn't lol but I can't recommend this ENOUGH, a must have!! ANYONE who charges lipos NEEDS this.. ASK is your home and families lives worth the price of a battbox? Mine are! I have a lot of animals, if my bat box was to catch fire in the middle of the night we stand A VERY GOOD chance of little to no damage, or casualtiesnoe dead frogs (our ambitious critters are extremely environmentally delicate and toxins in the air will kill them. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the crew who designed this for their intenseive R and D that was done, its above and beyond.... those aren't JUST heppa vents byw they are some kind of military grade filter like you find in gas masks..pretty amazing and good company. And no I don't get a free box for the endorsement lol but who knows what's around the corner maybe a product from isdt and battbox...? Maybe a crazy new product you never know but for now stock up charge safe! Store safe! And DISPOSE OF USED LIPOS PROPERLY DON'T RUIN OUR HOBBY and think of ANY wild animals UNLUCKY enough to find one... be smart.. fly hard!
True, however keep in mind that ammo boxes haven't been designed to safely store our lithium batteries. Check out the comments below for some creative solutions how to improve an ammo box using simple DIY stuff.
Get a bat box they kick ass for storage not just charging.. IF U EVER are the unlucky one unexpectedly u and your home, families and animals will survive with little to no damage.... how are all of you not ordering 12?
@@HeliGraphix I think for the price you would be better off with an old metal toolbox lined with a lipo bag, or doubling up an ammo can with a lipo bag. It's cheaper this way not to have all of your eggs in one basket. People will perpetuate the myth of exploding ammo cans to sell their gimmicks though. A vented box makes for a good flamethrower, so the liner is meant to help contain the flame at the height of the event. The batt safe just strikes me as being overpriced and still could use a liner of some kind.
@Matthew Hayslett you don't have to justify your purchase to me by rambling over the spec sheet. I've see enough videos of it to know it's a $60 flamethrower marketed to people who are used to overpaying for things. The batt safe is not lined at all where the vents are. The filter is steel mesh, similar in theory to that seen on a grill. A used steel toolbox lined with a lipo bag is cheaper and more effective. This might work if you're new and want to put your little $70 traxxas lipo in it. Not a good idea keeping all of your eggs in one basket, though.
@@Largetalons you are some what correct if you are a do it your-selfer, but if you aren't, comparing $50 to x amount of dollars a structure fire could cost you, $50 is nothing. I've created something similar for way less money. You can simply use an ammo box, or what I personally did was get a metal first aid box, line the outer walls with drywall and create dividers / separators for each lipo battery using hardi-backer. I was able to make two of these boxes which hold 4 lipos each. Theres a video on YT where a guy burns something inside of a make shift cube of drywall and is able to pick up the drywall cub with his bare fingers after the fire had burned for several min. On another note, I don't know why so many people store so many lipos in one container at a time. If one goes, they all go.
Lipo batteries are a pain in the ass You need to go 1 month vacations and that shits can explote in your home (even inside a cage) activacting all the smoke alarms I don't understand how this batteries are legal to use.
You've got a point there, but well, there's not really an alternative to this technology at the moment. Should we have electric cars all over the place, chances are we'll see quite some serious fires.
Gaston Maqueda well if you treat them safely you’ll have no issues. I’ve had a lot of lipos over the years, some which have been untouched for months and they remained safe.
They are allowed to ship by air so untouched , and half charged they are safe, if something is going to happen with lipo , it will happen during charging or discharging
wish they had a box the size and quality of Zarges battery safe C model priced for poor people. can't find anything less than 1000$ that can fit a 72v 2800w 40AH behemoth battery. none of the "cheap stuff" will cover that level of an explosion. literally better off making a case for less than 300$ yourself. last thing you'd want is a wreck and a battery like that incinerating you and the whole blocks away from you ;)
That is one hell of a battery! As you say, if this goes off you will need a massive container to contain the firestorm. What makes ZARGES expensive is the 3rd party certification - but this then means their products are truly up for the specified Wh rating.
The thermal runaway unfortunately works its way to disaster state without outside air. The seal will cause even more ballooning of the ammo box (you see it clearly in the video despite the real thick metal walls), eventually it will burst somewhere with a sharp fire jet or worse. It definitely won't stop the process. Your thought is a good one, but rest assured the seal will not stop anything. You'll also see that in the next video with the professional industrial solution; lid with seal closed, same reaction (but different effect due to different case design).
without a seal, the space inside the case will run out of oxygen pretty fast, so should have the same effect. a gentle release is safer than trying to bottle it all up
Thanks for letting us know. It does happen time and again, even though it's a rather rare occasion. But tell it to the guy to whom it happens. And sure enough, none of us wants to be that guy!
Over the years, I have come to know three persons who had lipo fires: in one case half the house burnt down, the other lost his car, third case was less grave as he had kept the lipo in money cassette but still had to redo his entire basement and the smell wasn't gone until after 6 months. It's rare that an incident happens, but no fun at all when it does. Not sure we should thus call it paranoia as this implies that there is no risk.
True. A very similar scenario happened to a friend of mine, he had stored them in a money case in the basement. Luckily the door to the rest of the house had been closed. He had to redecorate the basement and you could still smell it throughout the house for weeks. But the house was still standing, no damage besides the afore mentioned.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I just purchased a bat-safe. It’s just made of plastic. How does this not melt away during a lipo fire? Seems like metal with insulation is much safer or even an amo box would be better.
Really?! Then I'd say you got a knock-off product - the original is made of metal (although painted or coated). You may want to double-check.
@@HeliGraphix i bought it directly from the bat-safe website. After looking again, I think it’s just a very very thin sheet of metal. Hopefully it is better than an amo box? Do you know if I can store more or bigger batteries in the bat-safe if they are at half charge? For example If I have 2 6s batteries 5200mah/50c, that’s 230.88WH and over the 222wh limit. Is the WH reduced at half charge? Thanks for the response by the way!
There are - and let me emphasize that this is not any sort of advice, just my very own personal opinion - three answers to this question:
1) Technically, if a battery is not fully charged (but be aware that the exact state of charge is difficult to measure!), then its actual energy content at this point in time will be less than a fully charged one. Likewise, an empty battery contains only very little energy. Meaning: less severe reaction is likely in the event of a fire.
2) From a liability standpoint, even empty batteries might count as full, so you're probably not going to be covered in the hypothetical event of a fire and Bat-Safe failure, even when - technically - the actual energy content of your batteries was well below the Bat-Safe's threshold limit. (Consider you'll have a hard time proving what the actual state of charge before the fire was).
3) From our findings, the Bat-Safe's official threshold limit is on the optimistically high end (you can see in the video that sparks may shoot out). Therefore, I'd stay well below their recommended max. Wh limit.
@@HeliGraphix thanks, would you say the better option would be to store one single battery inside a lipo bag, then put it in an amo box? Would this offer more protection than a bat-safe? It seems like a much cheaper solution and I could not tell that there was much protection difference from an amo box vs. A bat-safe from your test.
It's a personal choice. The lipo bag - again my opinion - won't do anything, so you can skip it. The ammo container should work as long as no flamable material is close, and when stored in a way/place so that the smoke cannot harm you. Personally, I got myself a Zarges Battery Safe. It will accept way more batteries and appears significantly more safe (still, smoke coming out), thus easier handling and all things considered also cheaper, at least for me.
I use an ammo can with an Amazon lipo bag as a liner, it’s square shaped and fits perfectly
can u link the bag?
Doing rc and airsoft I’m accumulating quite a lot of lipos…always stored in bags but been sceptical. Needed this video, thank you, eye opening! Off to grab some bag safes 👍
Thanks for sharing. Nice to see someone testing it properly and not just a review without a demonstration.
The beef I had with existing "tests" is that - if it was a fire test at all - only small batteries like 3s had been used, and that from the camera distance one did not see much. BTW, keep in mind that even this quite hefty load is just about half of what the BAT-Safe officially claims to be able to hold. Also note how the ammo box "balloons" after having lifted off for the second time. The learning is: let's store our lipos "empty" (40% charge is great). Much safer and a lot better for lipo longevity anyway.
I charge my bike batter IN the fireplace so if it goes up in flames it will be mostly sealed off
This is actually a great idea as it also effectively deals with the toxic fumes. Thanks for sharing!
After which it is not any good for cooking therein, only outside
That's great idea. Gonna start leaving my rc batteries in the fireplace.
I've had my three lipos in a lipo-bag since 2014, oh my,... I bought myself a bat-safe after watching only half of this video. So glad I found this video!!
Many of us have gone through the same realization. Marketing of the lipo bag vendors is just misleading (many of them propably don't even know themselves I'd guess) - it's all the more important we spread the word how dangerous these things are. Good choice you found a safer alternative for yourself Philip - and thanks for letting us know.
Everything happens for a reason 😉
0:30 does that pass Euro 6 emissions test? 🙂
Great video my friend. I have just ordered Bat box today after having fire charging Spektrum radio baterrie. Scary stuff when it happens in the hangar. Thanks for posting and big salute from Slovenia, Pilot Robert
Thank you for this video, as a neighbor's house just burned to the ground due to an exploding Lithium-Ion battery. I'm now super-paranoid and am looking for a storage solution for 5 batteries I have that run chainsaw, drill, weed whacker, etc. No R/C stuff just power tools. What would you suggest? Currently, I put them in my cast iron woodstove, but come winter, that needs to change. Thanks!!
The cast iron wood stove is a good idea.
In winter, you may store them in an ammo box or - safest but also most costly solution - the ZARGES battery safe. Unless you need constant access, keep the box outside/garage/tool shed, as in a thermal runaway the smoke may be toxic and is very hard to get rid of (again in the worst case may take weeks and repainting walls, also hard to clean furniture). Consider spreading the batteries over 2 boxes (if ammo), so that if something goes wrong, not all 5 batteries go off. It goes without saying that the boxes need to be stored on a non-flammable surface, away from combustible material (outside gets very hot and fire jest may come out). For longer term storage, charge your batteries to around 70% (not 100% as this will increase chances for a thermal runaway, make potential fires so much more violent, and it will also decreas your battery lifetime); for short term storage, charge to 40% and recharge only before use.
@@HeliGraphix Thank you so much for your quick reply. This may be a dumb question, but how can you tell how much charge a battery has?
@@donnapope1004 Many batteries have 3 or 4 LEDs that activate when a button or the unlock mechanism is pressed. The LEDs indicate the state of charge, with all lighting up = full, and one meaning 33% or 25% respectively.
When batteries don't have LEDs, the tool usually does. Upon pressing the trigger, the LEDs will light up and indicate the state of charge the same way as when they're on the battery.
@@HeliGraphix Ok - thanks. I didn't notice any LEDs on my batteries (other than the one that blinks while it's charging) or on the tools. I'll check again.
Been wondering if an ammo box would help with the lipo batteries in my van. This helps a lot.
GREAT video. Thanks! My exact comments on "other" UA-cam vids on LIPO BAGS. Just use an ammo box(metal is harder to burn than so called material bags! Just throw your batteries in a small metal home strong box. Find those
for under $20. I have a Harbor Freight - Bunker Hill I use. METAL(not a
"material" bag) with a handle and key lock. Measures approx 8"x10" x 4".
Closes pretty tight for those commenting about "feeding fires with
oxygen". Nothing is 100% but it is peace of mind.
Thanks for sharing your experience Dave, I'm sure it'll be of help to the one or other trying to locate a good box.
Lipos don't need oxygen to burn.
I was gonna get lipo guard bags for charging and an ammo box for storage. Guess i'm only getting the ammo box now. But for 40 bucks a box this is a great investment if you consider the prices of more professional solutions
Correct conclusions!
I leave the rubber seal on the ammo case just on the corners so the latch will lock down properly… I cut away the rest on all four sides to let it breathe/vent out the gas
Good idea, thanks for sharing.
Thank you for your excellent videos. I modded my ammo box with a few holes and gromits at the front for charging with cables. I'm Realising now though that they will essentially be fire holes lol so will point it away in garage accordingly. I think I'll get another box just for storage. Would you get a box per battery? I'm using 2x RC 5200mah zeee lipo batteries.
The battery in our example had 115 Wh, as stated in part #1 of the series. I'd say much more than this and you should use an additional ammo box to store additional batteries.
The Wh rating of your battery should be printed onto the outside. In case it isn't, simply multiply the 5.2 Ah capacity x the voltage, e.g. 5.2 Ah x 11.1 V = 58 Wh (note: to be on the safe side, better use the voltage of the fully charged battery, in this example 5.2 Ah x 12.6 V = 66 Wh). Since in our example both results are lower than 115 Wh, you should be good with one ammo container.
@@HeliGraphix awesome. cheers!
I would say the vent holes and the charging cable should come from the top the way the bat Safe does. That way the energy is trapping the box against the floor or whatever surface it on.
I’ve bought a few of these. I’ve noticed that on 1 the foam seal isn’t particular snug against the lip. Then I do a quick google and find another guy has discussed the same on a UA-cam video.
Not sure how bigger deal it is, but would explain why in your video you see some gas escape from the edge.
Appreciate your sharing your findings! Honestly, the BatSafe seems to be not the highest of quality products. One would assume it will do the job, however the specified max. Wh rating of each safe appears to be on the very optimistic side. Personally I would not load them to the max. - with half you should be good. Either way, keep flammable material away as pressure bursts will inevitably escape through the seal. You'd need a ZARGES battery safe to prevent this.
@@HeliGraphixsince u say they’re not that good and I just received mine slightly dented on the outside and realized it’s smaller than I thought, Would you recommend a regular ammo box with the seal removed for my selection of like 450 Wh of batteries? Instead of buying two or three batsafe?
@@asbodo32 If you can store them away from flammable material, e.g. in a concrete garage, then the ammo boxes might be a suitable and more economical solution.
Have you tested/heard about the B&W 6040 li-io carry & store? It has the same cirrux as the zarges but it’s a plastic box. So I’m confused. The cushion will insulate and keep the temperature down, but wouldn’t just all melt?
Thanks for the heads-up. I had a look at the data sheet, and while it can do significantly less than the ZARGES case, it should still work nicely for our modeling purposes. The plastic material does leave a bit of a feeling of uneasiness, but they seem to be certified. I guess that to be on the very safe side I'd still want to go with the ZARGES aluminum cases, but surely I'd like to test one of the B&W myself. They're more light-weight, thus handling could be better.
I've just bought my first drone, and I didn't realise how potentially dangerous these batteries are, I'm terrified about having them in the house now. Lol.
Normally they're fine and nothing happens. But things such as drops, (over-)heating in the car, moisture, etc. can always occur, and you may suffer from the symptoms only days and several charge cycles later. Most people do not realize that there can be such a delay from cause to effect. This is why you should always store them safely. Choose one of the safer options shown in the videos.
What do you recommend if you have dozens of phones, laptops, laptop batteries, battery banks and other items and travel often, but have to leave these items at home while you're away? Do you pack them all up and stick them in the BatSafe out in the yard while you're gone, away from the home, or do you fully drain every battery down to 0 and trust they'll be fine in your drawers and shelves? What's the solution here for high technologists with lots of battery gear?
The answer to this is actually an easy one: the ZAEGES battery box/safe ticks all your boxes. It has enough space to accomodate your portfolio, it has the necessary (even certified) Wh rating for said portfolio, and it is the safest option of them all. The price tag is higher for one unit, but when compared to how many BAT-Safes, etc. you would need to buy (and the hassle with all these separate boxes), then you're likely better off with the ZARGES solution also in terms of cost per battery stored. There are different versions of the Battery Box/Safe on their website (to my knowledge they also sell through resellers and on Amazon, at least some of their products).
Note: when you leave, place the Battery Box in a room that is either ventilated (garage), or from where potential smoke and smell cannot easily get to the rest of the house. Getting rid of the smell takes weeks and is not healthy.
Another important note: do not drain your batteries to 0 and store them - it will destroy them. Rather, store them discharged at 30% SOC. If you plan long-term storage, charge to 65% SOC and then check every 6-9 months and recharge to said level.
Who keeps a phone in a battery storage bag how convenient is that. Statistically how risky are phones causing fires at home there are billions of them yes there are fires, but I would bet it's same as winning a lottery.
@@Mike-01234 He's talking about an assortment of batteries when he's on a business trip, not a single phone he wants to put there like every day.
Statistics is a bitch: 0.something sounds low - unless you're the one affected. Sounds stupid but happened to me on one occasion which had a grave health effect (not related to lithium batteries).
@@HeliGraphix everything in life comes with a risk…. You’re right, when it happens to you, you don’t care about the odds. but when we drive a car, we’re not wearing a five point harness, full face helmet, eye protection, flame retardant suit and steel toe shoes, but that would make us safer . Heck most of us don’t even follow the speed limit, and that would make us safer.
With all the batteries we have between laptops, cell phones, power tools , toys, cameras, flashlights, Back up power sources, etc., we have accepted some risk. I’m not aware of any person or even any business that tries to store these items in a fireproof container when not use. Go to a fire department and see what they do with there stuff. …they don’t
I haven’t research this, but I am guessing that most of the time these battery fires occur with a battery that has been damaged, or abused, or is being charged incorrectly,
What are we supposed to store our electric vehicles in?
What would you recommend for long ebike batteries? I have a 19.75in ebike battery and it's hard enough just finding a carrying case for it let alone lipo protection.
Hey Dee, as said in the previous comment, with such high-energy batteries it might be a good idea to consider the ZARGES battery safe. I believe this here is their latest version, in the video it even shows exactly your application: ua-cam.com/video/ag-3Hyk9w9s/v-deo.html. It's expensive but should last a lifetime, doubles as a carrying case and will even accomodate more than one such high-energy batteries. Someone here in the comments section contacted their customer support; check out that thread, it was interesting info.
@@HeliGraphix Thanks but I don't think that would fit my battery by the look of it and I wouldn't want to store multiple ebike batteries in one case. If one battery is messed up wouldn't it compromise a good battery? I have different ebikes, batteries and sizes. It would be best for them each to have their own storage if possible.
I'd say that most likely there won't be a fire incident, so a scenario where you store the batteries together should not be of concern. If - worst case - a battery does go off, your only real concern will be safety. And that's what this box will do for you. What matters is that you, your family and your property will be unharmed. You'll always be able to buy a new battery, or two if need be.
I remember that the older ZARGES K470 battery box had compartments so that one burning battery did not set those in the neighboring compartments on fire. Would need to verify that but believe that's exactly why that box had 3 compartments.
just buy a regular safe less than 100......regular safe are not waterproof
Batsafe XXL may be able to handle that sort of watthour rating.
interessted in larger battery packs like "Sur-ron Ultra Bee Akku 72V 73AH" Dimensionen (mm):225mm x 177mm x 373mm, 25Kg....
hi sir. can you please test cinder blocks? surround batteries with cinder blocks and see if the blocks contain the fire
I live in an apartment. I have 8 lipo batteries. 2s 3s and 4s. They’re all in a lipo bag, inside another larger lipo bag case. What’s my best option to store these safely? I could cram it all in to a metal toolbox or something or ammo box. I’d like to keep them outside on my deck in a lightly sealed Rubbermaid tote but I worry about the cold and the heat. What are some safe options for us apartment livers?
The bags won't do much - if anything - for you. Better store them in a metal container in a corner of your apartment with as little flammable material as possible. It should NOT be the room you sleep or spend most of your time in. The smoke produced in case of a thermal runaway can be veryt toxic (depends on the very chemistry of your specific lipo). It is also wise not to store them all in the same container, so that not all of them will go off if one catches on fire. Keep in mind that even if your apartment does not burn down due to correct storage in metal containers, the smoke will cause your apartment to be unusable; it will need full decontamination and subsequent renovation by experts. I've witnessed this personally, it happened to a good friend of mine.
@@HeliGraphix so this smoke contaminated a room in my home. It has been about a month now and the smell is dying off but it is very faint still. We never decontaminated the room. But keep in mind the fire occurred without a fireproof box.. which was my mistake.
What if you arranged ordinary cinder blocks, with no mortar, in a way that overlapped each other, but still allowed gasses and smoke to be released, but no shooting parts could get past, and then covered it with a heavy piece of metal or tiles, with cinder blocks on top, and then charged your battery on top of one cinder block in the middle of this cinder block fire box? Please build something like that and set an e-bike battery on fire inside it and do a video. Thanks!
It sounds like this could work well in terms of controlling the spread of fire. Also, it should be scalable to a degree. Battery transportation on the other hand won't be possible.
Since the smoke is toxic and tends to stay around for weeks, it would still be advisable to have this steup in a well ventilated or at least "compartmented" area to avoid the spreading as much as possible.
@@HeliGraphix OK, thanks, it would be outside in an open area away from buildings. In the rare case that a battery burns, I am mostly concerned with containing the fire, not the smoke.
Here I'm confident this is going to work.
@@HeliGraphix Excellent, please do a video about it.
I use an old metal ammo box for mine. It still has the rubber seal in place, but has a ½" hole in it with a rubber grommit for a charge lead to go through and to vent excess gas. This is stored on a concrete floor in a garage such that the hole is pointed out into open space and therefore won't cause issues. I'm thinking of moving it to my workbench and using fire bricks to insulate the outside of the can on the bottom and back, just so I can access the whole setup more easily.
This sounds like a good solution - thank you for sharing, it's certainly of help to many others!
nice. thanks!
while i wait for a metal box, how about i store lipos in a metal thermos bottle? it does also have a hole for venting in case of issues, and i'll make sure the vent is directioned towards something that does not burn 😃
The blast/fire jets of the individual cells would destroy the inner insulating "mirror chamber" (usually surrounded by a vacuum which is the actual insulation), leaving the steel casing but also the plastic parts of the bottle exposed to the enormous temperatures. If the steel casing didn't have any plastic parts, then it might work. Keep in mind though that the bottle will reach up to 700 degrees Celsius, thus may set on fire any flammable materials nearby and potentially the surface it will stand on, or might roll onto in case it were to tip over. All in all the ammo box (or professional alternatives) seems to be a better solution.
I used to not put to much thought into lipo safety. As I started flying larger helicopters that have larger batteries I started to become more nervous. Not only have I since then collected a decent stock pile of all sizes, my largest lipos are 12s 3300 which would be catastrophic if they melted down.
Many of us have gone through the same realization process. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Does this work with li-ion batteries ? like 18650 ? ty
Hi Ty, yes it does. Any type of Li-battery that does not exceed the respective container's specs will be stored "safely". As an info, cylindrical cells are what most "hard cartridge" battery packs are made of (i.e. power tool or bike batteries and even those of cars).
how many lipos can be stored in the Bat-Safe?
In the video you see the effect of a 6s 5000 mAh battery. I would say it is reasonably well contained. Theoretically the BAT-Safe should be able handle two of these. It is my personal opinion that this will not work; I feel that 110 Wh of energy as used in the video (doesn't matter if one big or multiple smaller batteries as they'll all go off together) is about the reasonable limit. That would be half of what the manufacturer claims.
@@HeliGraphix It's good the solution exists but most of us have 10-20 batteries, that's a lot of Bat-safes.
I'm not sure if there's a good, easy and convenient solution for storing them yet. I guess that's just lipos.
Fully agree. This is why I'm using two Zarges battery boxes now (see part 3 of the lipo video series). They swallow a LOT of batteries, plus the compartments will prevent lipos in other compartments from also burning down if one goes off. More budget solution (and more convenient) than many BAT-Safes. Good for storage at home, but not good for transport to e.g. the flying field.
Great video! I ordered a bat safe that can hold 2 3s 2200 mah so in total 6s and 4400 mah. Can it hold 1 3s 5600 mah battery?
This is not entirely correct. 2x 3s 2200 mAh is the equivalent of either 1x 3s 4400 mAh (when you hook them up in parallel), or 1x 6s 2200 mAh (when you hook them up in series). Both is equivalent to 2x 24,4 Wh (= ~50 Wh).
A 3s 5600 mAh battery however stores 11,1V * 5,6Ah = 62,2 Wh.
The medium-sized Bat-Safe is rated for 222 Wh; our experiments suggest that you should not load it with more than ~120 Wh, though.
The Bat-Safe MINI your are referring to is rated for 50 Wh, so you cannot use that one to store a 62,2 Wh battery, even if that would be possible with regard to the battery's dimensions. Instead, you need to buy the medium-sized version.
@@HeliGraphix thanks! I ordered a medium. Why do you not reccomend going over 120 even if it’s rated for 244? I want to be able to store 2 3s 5600 mah. If i charge one fully so it becomes 4.2v om each cell x3 x5.6 its 70.56wh. If i store another battery which is storage charged its 63,84wh and than together is 132.72wh. I just wonder if it would be safe to store 2 in the box. I know the regular bags are almost useless but I would store the batteries in a bag too inside the bat safe
@@t3floz You should be good storing these two in the medium sized version.
The battery used in our video was 115 Wh, i.e. not even half of the rating - and already here you could see that not all fire was contained. So doubling the amount of energy stored to the max. rating doesn't exactly inspire confidence. If there's nothing flammable around it might work, but better safe than sorry.
Hello . Thanks for your videos. I have at home two lipos 2s 4000mah for my starter box. I am worried to have it at home. Then...do you think the bat safe is a good solution? Thanks and excuse me , my english is not good.
Hi Alejandro, yes, this is a good idea for your purposes. Each of your 2s 4 Ah lipos has about 30 Wh of energy, so both of them amount to 60 Wh. The small Bat-Safe ist rated for up to 220 Wh (but this I would see as very borderline), thus it will easily be sufficient for you. The Bat-Safe XL is rated for up to 500 Wh so would accomodate even several batteries of your type. However it's better to keep the risk low and spread - in case one had many - lipos over multiple safes rather than storing them all in one safe; in case of fire they would all burn. But again, in your case one small Bat-Safe seems perfect.
@@HeliGraphix Thank you very much!.
Any ideas on what we could use for a filter on an ammo box? Was even thinking that maybe the fire resistant cloth used to protect walls when soldering for copper plumbing may work.
Real filtering of harmful fumes - as opposed to preventing fire jets from shooting out - is a difficult topic. You'd need a highly absobing material such as active coal (flammable though), plus ensure a minimum contact time with the fumes so the filtering can be effective. While any filter is arguably better than no filter, I doubt that without adding a siginificant filtration layer any effect will be observable.
@@HeliGraphix Agree with your points. Instead of rigorous filtering to safe levels, I'm after something similar to what the bat-safe does. It appears to reduce the amount of smoke as well as make it less damaging. I bought a couple bat-safes to try out but have quite a few ammo cans that I wouldn't mind retrofitting with cement board and some sort of high temperature smoke filter.
@@MrGantzFan have you figured out a way to filter the smoke? Carbon filter seems good but the heat generated from the burning battery will make it catch on fire
@@casshernsins8333 I ended up buying bat-safe boxes.
Thank you! So helpful, finally I know what is safe.
i got mine in ammo box in the fireplace insert with the doors closed and the draft open lol
That's a good way to store them! Thanks for sharing Chuck
Just got my first 6S drone, received my ammo box today, is it best to also charge the batteries inside the case by making a small hole for charging wire to go through?
Ideally, yes. Charging should always be attended, in a way that you can react quickly should something go wrong.
@@HeliGraphix yes I would always be in the room when charging, guess the only problem with charging it in a ammo box you can't see what's going on inside, guess I could leave the lid open at least it still would be protected with metal sides?
I'd close the lid. Normally when something happens it goes fast. Also, you won't realistically be able to peek into the box regularly. Under normal circumstances all will be fine and you'll never need the extra protection; but when something goes wrong, then the ammo box and the closed lid will be your insurance. And you'll be very happy you got it.
@@HeliGraphix Thank you, your right I will close the lid when charging, also the charger in using is the I Max B6 mini, it charges upto 6S and has always been a great charger for my 2S batteries but I was worried how it will cope with a6S?
very useful video, much appreciated. thanks :)
i will continue to keep mine in ammo cases in the bathroom
Sounds like a controlled risk to me, guess it'll work. Just make sure that those fire jets you see in the video can't inflame anything.
its a fully tiled room, so should be ok. might burn a towel or 2, and crack some tiles, but seems the least flammable room in the house
Do you think ammo can work for a 500wh e-bike battery stored at about 50% charge? Or would batsafe xxl be better?
I think both will not work reliably. Consider that always having to charge to (or bring down to) and then double-check that you really store it at your spcified 50% SoC is prone to error. For such high energy densities you are better off with a professional solution such as (or based on) the Zarges battery safe.
@ thank you for your insight. Discharging it isn’t a big issue, as I need to store the battery off season. Zarges seems to have a usual k470 box and battery safe one. Is the difference only in the fiberglass lining for battery safe box?
its important to have some air around it. In lipo bags u put a lot in small area. I think both works pretty same
What are the test conditions? How does the thermal runaway get initialized? Thank you in advance!
For containers large enough and without an accessible penetration possibility, it was thermally induced. Otherwise mechanically. We made sure that this does not - to a significant extent - influence the outcome of the experiments.
@@HeliGraphix Thank you for the answer! What was the charge level of the cell and which type of 18650 were used? How much additional energy was needed to start the thermal runaway?
Batteries were fully charged, I believe it was Panasonic cells. Thermal runaway is relatively easy to start by remotely overheating one cell e.g. with a small torch light; it then propagates violently on its own.
What happens if you put your batteries in a lipo bag and in either a bat safe or an ammo can. I haven't seen any videos on this yet?
Would it be safe to charge my phone in an unused kitchen stove ? Seems like they are tailor made to contain high heat.
You need a small opening for the charging cable - other than that, yes. Fire jets may emerge through any kind of opening, but there needs to be a release for the pressure/(potentially toxic) smoke anyway. So overall it's probably one of the safest ways among the simple methods.
I want to keep a 48v 13ah ebike battery in an ammo box (I’ve checked, the best ammo box for my size battery is a 40cal ammo box) would this be safe to do so , I will remove rubber like your video suggests.
Should I drill small vent holes in the lid?
Also I think lining the inside with plaster board will help do you agree?
Basically yes, this might still work. Consider that 624 nominal Wh (fully charged it'll be even more) is *A LOT*. A venting hole thus seems like a good idea as the pressure buildup inside would likely be pretty massive in case of a thermal runaway. Thus the box would bulge and blow open somewhere. A drywall board lining is a good idea, too.
With such high Wh numbers as your e-bike battery you might want to take a look at the ZARGES solution (Battery Safe) like in their video here: ua-cam.com/video/ag-3Hyk9w9s/v-deo.html. It's expensive but will last a lifetime, doubles as a carrying case and will even accomodate more than one such high-energy batteries. There's a thread somewhere here in the comments section where someone contacted their customer support; maybe check that out, too, it's interesting to read.
Thanks 🫡
Add a plastic bag filled with sand ontop on the battery. Sand will stop fire before it all burns up, so the safe "should" be able to handle more energy.
can you make a part 4 and use an ammo container that does not have the seal taken out to show people what happens if you don't take the seal out of them
Already with the seal taken out the ammo container bulges significantly. Quite likely, with the seal in place, it would blow open at its weakest point, followed by a sharp fire jet. An explosion cannot be excluded, it all depends on how tightly the container closes and how fast/violent the reaction goes off.
Hello, what kind of battery was used in the military box?
6s li-ion with 115 Wh of energy, as explained in the first video of the series
@@HeliGraphix ok, thank you for the answer.
is there a cable i can BUY to extend the cable length for the 3s sledge batteries so i can charge with a bat-safe?
I'm not sure I understand the question correctly, but you can always use a good cable of sufficent "diameter", solder respective connectors to each end, and plug it in between the end of your charger's cable and the battery (thereby effectively extending the length of your charging cable).
@@HeliGraphix yeah I'm ngl, I don't have the guts to do that with a lipo, thats why Im seeking an extension lead for the battery without me soldering etc.
This is the only reason why I've not purchased the sledge. I use lipos for RC air craft, but if I can't charge safely with traxxas ill have to give it a miss.
Which sux because I really want a sledge
i was looking taht video!! ty!! I will place the lipo in a lipo safe bag and then in a metal box,is it right? can i charge a lipo battery in that green metal army box or it will increase the temperature my friend?? ty
I'm not sure I understand you correctly, but you can charge your batteries inside the green metal box. Additionally having them in a lipo bag will most likely not make a difference.
@@HeliGraphixthat's what i did!! i returned the bag and i buy this metal green box to make holes upside and then i will place that box in a portable freezer not to warm the metal box.THANKS for that video,helped a lot!!
I've got a sheetrock lining a very large ammo can for 12s pack storage. The flames and heat are contained. The one thing that I haven't tried to contain is the HORRIBLE fine sooty, smelly, sticky smoke that comes from a LiPO fire. It gets everywhere and the smoke ruins EVERYTHING it touches. I had a 5000mAH pack mysteriously let loose. It was in a 12S stick pack, so 2 high C Pulse packs went nuclear. They were in my garage. Even with the door open there was soot and tar covering my car, the walls, the floor, and the ceiling. I don't know but if there were flames it might have at least burned that terrible black oily soot; it's like lamp-black. The large ammo can contained open flames. That box you showed with the built in filters looks like it would have helped me with the soot. I might try a stack of steel wool to cool the hot gases with several layers of fiberglass filter material. So if this happens again, I won't have to hire a fire and water restoration team to scrub my garage.
Great comment! The exact same thing happend to a friend's basement (5s pack in a cash box, also with sheetrock lining). Had to wash/repaint but the smell was all over the house for weeks. Personally I doubt you can efficiently filter it, the pressure and amount of gas generated is too much. Better have sort of a pipe guide the gases outside. Re. steel wool for cooling, please be aware that due to its high surface it catches fire quite easily (they show it in firestop trainings all the time). Active coal usually does a good job of adsorbing all kinds of chemicals; but again the gases/chemicals need enough time to adsorb to the filter material. I've seen sophisticaed solutions for all problems, however I think we all look for simple and easily scalable solutions. On the positive side re. your situation - as bad as it truly was - the ammo box worked and your garage didn't burn down.
Pleeeaase No steel wool. At those temps you are adding an incendiary!
I have mine in a box like this, also taken out the rubber seal. then drilled 8 holes in the top. It's standing on a layer of building bricks, which i believe can handle temperatures of up to 900 degrees C.
add to that a fire alarm close to the box.
I'm not sure how likely a total battery failure is like seen in the video. But it freaking scares me, when i come home to people and see them, having fully charges lips in a drawer somewhere, or just in box in the bedroom. I know you cannot plan for everything, but imo with lipo, you better be safe than sorry.
Well said, thanks for the comment and for sharing your thoughts and experience!
@@HeliGraphix Thank you for the good and informative video!.
I have 2 3s 5000MAH 11.1v each (traxxas) batteries. What do you recommend I use to store them? (Whatever one I get I will still keep my batteries inside the bag I have and put the bag inside the box) I like how you can charge with the bat safe but ammo box seem more safe (I was also thinking about covering the batteries with sand inside the ammo box) I also have carpet all in my house so I’m also worried about exterior temp burning surroundings
You should be able to store all 3 of them in a BAT-Safe, so that is an option. The ammo can should work equally well with the limitation of the fire jets (so keep the surroundings clear and put it on e.g. inflammable stone tiles). The sand is a mess every single time, I wouldn't do this. The lipo bag I'd also not use - it's a hassle and no real additional protection. Any solution is only good if it is practial - otherwise after a few times one will stop using it.
Ok thank you, one last question. What size Bat safe box do you recommend for my batteries? I have two 3s 5000mah each and I have 8 small drone batteries too 2s 1500 mah each
@@CRno25 When fully charged (and that should be your calculation scenario), you have 2x 63 Wh + 8x 12,6 Wh = 226,8 Wh to store. The smaller BAT-Safe is rated 222 Wh, so *theoretically* that should work. In reality, it's (a) probably too small for the number of batteries, and (b) the experiments we did suggest you should not load it significantly beyond half the rated Wh (= be safe and store up to ~120 Wh).
Therefore, if you buy the XL version rated 500 Wh, you should be good from both point of Wh and storage space.
@@HeliGraphix ok thank you again I’ll just get two bat safe boxes to keep my drone and land rc batteries separate. Medium for land and mini for drone 😄
@@CRno25 Makes sense! :) Additional advantage, should something go wrong, then not only will the mayhem be less, but also will it only destroy the batteries within the same enclosure.
What capacity lipo s were used in this video?
It was 6s with 5200 mAh, amounting to app. 112 Wh of energy
@@HeliGraphix thanks for the reply also what is the bat safe rated for capacity wise? That's a huge battery.
read their website, it rated for 222Wh
Sorry, missed your second question. Somehow the system has stopped sending me notifications to replies. I believe that the 222 Wh in a bat safe, when fully charged, are very borderline. But I'm sure they've tested it appropriately.
@@HeliGraphix it's all good. I appreciate your videos as safety comes first.
1:01 Happy New Year !
hahaha
Great video thank you! Watching a lot of videos lately on UA-cam re LiPo’s has honestly got me a little anxious, would like some confirmation from some people that are experienced in this subject please as I am new to using this class of battery. My lipo’s are in good condition, always balance charge them with a smart charger, check the cells are equal and when not using for a few days, I put them in storage mode (3.8v) and keep them in separate lipo bags when then in turn are placed in a batbox which is then placed inside a large fireproof lipo holdall, I then keep these in my garage. Is this a safe enough procedure please? I just would like to know if I am covering all bases.
You are not complete unless you now buy a tank for any type of transportation ;)
Should this comment not meant to be fun/troll comment, then my very personal opinion is you're overcomplicating things. Safety or any process, for that matter, is only effective if it is sustainable. Going through a procedure like you describe it may sound perfect, however the ordeal of all of it will prompt you to take short cuts sooner than later. Safety is effective when the measures are effective & at the same time achievable with reasonable effort. I hope this helps.
@@HeliGraphix Thank you for replying. No I don’t mind these extra steps I take, I just want to know if this is safe enough please? For when I am storing my LiPO’s, thats all! I wont take short cuts because I want to stay safe.
@@ukmonk I'd say if you store your lipos in BatSafes, not filling them to max capacity (i.e. if it's rated for 220 Wh, store no more than 160 - 180 Wh), and keep those BatSafes in a corner of your garage with no flamable material within 4 feet, that should be reasonably safe while at the same time allow good access.
@@HeliGraphix thank you so much!
You can make your own burn box. Just enclose it with sheet rock which has a burn time of 30 minutes.
Never thought of that 👍
Thanks for the video. So, the verdict seems to still be out on this “blow the lid” projected scenario. Are you privy to any experiments being done with lipo’s in an ammo box without the seal being removed and the lid being completely sealed prior to “detonation?” Just curious what would really happen if there’s no access to oxygen if and when a Lipo were to go bad. PLMK of any other videos that may show the “sealed shut” example. Stay safe and MERRY CHRISTMAS!!! 🎄😎👍🏼🎄
In the ZARGES battery safe they are selaed off - the result is largely the same (we've also tested it in a newer version but no time to edit and post it). The thermal runaway does not depend on oxygen; I understand the logic, but it all happens nonetheless. I have footage of batteries "suffocated" with powder, and after a while the thermal runaway just continues. I also have footage of drowned batteries, it's again the same. Only difference in the latter case is that afte some time, due to the strong cooling effect of the water, the reaction will die down (side note: avoid extinguishing with water as, depending on cell chemistry, metallic lithium will react with water and form hydrogen which in turn may lead to an explosion).
If the sealing around the lid is left in place, at some point the pressure needs to vent. So - at a "random" (= weakest) point - the box will blow open and a huge fire jet will shoot out or even move/turn over/throw down your box. You will want more control over this process, this is why you should remove the seal. In case of ZARGES, where the box is quite massive and heavier, this will happen in a much more controlled way, thus you can leave the seal in place here.
No oxygen? You mean like a salami in a pot of oil? Can’t be a fire if there is no oxygen. But do you want to store your Lipo in oil? It’s a good idea if you use your Lipo in a submarine or saltwater boat. That’s the only good application. Everything else is not practical
I have ammo box 50mm for my small batteries and 81mm for my larger batteries that work well for price
1:02 wtf is the point of the filter? it doesnt stop ANY smoke from getting out, at least not enough to make a bit of difference
They claim it fliters bad components. I also doubt this is possible to a degree of significance.
I think it supposed to stop fire jets from coming out while still allowing pressure to vent.
There's filter material that can take ash out of smoke.. not sure what sort of high temp options there are, however
compared to the ammo crate which let out a thick smoke including flames it's not bad
Which is best for Traxxas 6700mah batteries for the Traxxas Xmaxx 8s?
One of your LiPo batteries is 6.7 Ah x 8 x 3.7 V = 198 Wh. The small Bat-Safe is rated for 220 Wh, thus will accomodate one of your batteries. My personal experience is that you should store only significantly less than 220 Wh in it, thus already your single pack is borderline. The Bat-Safe XL is advertised for up to 500 Wh, thus would accomodate two of your batteries. The latest version of the ZARGES battery safe (see pt. #3 of this video series) is a handy size and would safely accomodate 5 or even more of your packs.
Are you supposed to close the ammo box like that? I mean if it won’t burn through the metal, wouldn’t it be safe enough assuming there’s nothing nearby that can burn easily. Keeping it closed like that might be more dangerous.
See the other one has vents
There's some truth in that. I'd still close it because the reaction partly is very violent as one can see, and burning battery parts might otherwise shoot out. I've recently tested the latest version of the ZARGES battery safe, and this one is great. Tightly sealed, stays "cold", yet no fire jets. Got the video, just need to find the time to sum it up and edit it.
@@HeliGraphix might be better with it closed but not tight, some holes might be helpful
Agreed! This is why the seal should be taken out, as shown in the video. And even then the box bulges quite noticeably.
I would think that you would not have to remove the gasket from the ammo box, but i am no expert. The walls are way to thin to ever build up enough pressure to create an explosion. And the seal is just soft rubber, pressure would just blow it out. But maybe it is necessary to remove the gasket to keep the walls intact from whatever pressure that is created and could bulge the walls, thereby exposing the fire to the outside. I store all my lithium batteries in ammo boxes unless they are LiFePO4 chemistry, UL certified or manufactured by main stream companies (i.e. Samsung, Jackery, etc.).
Removing the seal allows a bit of controlled ventilation. The box would otherwise blow open in an upredictable way, causing fire jets which - as it is obvious - could have the opposite effect of what you were trying to achieve by placing the batteries in the ammo box. But you are right that there likely would not be an explosion in the sense of a destructive shock wave.
The problem with removing all of the gasket is that the lid no longer latches. Perhaps the solution is to remove half, or most, of the gasket so there is still pressure against the latching mechanism. Otherwise, without the gasket, you pick up the ammo can and the lid flops open.
@@squarebody4546 I believe to remeber that also after removing the seal the box did latch (i.e. did not open by itself when lifting it up), but we didn't really test this, thus can't say for sure. I do like the idea of partial gasket removal, thanks for sharing.
Will an 11.1v 1200mah battery be dangerous to store in a ammo box on my wood floors?
Likely not as 15 Wh won't do much. Keep in mind though that the ammo box will still get quite hot and you might have burn marks on the wooden floor. To prevent this, consider a piece of drywall under the ammo box.
@@HeliGraphix I’ll try that thanks!
I have never had problems with my lipos and I have 14 of them and high voltage like Revolectrix, Gens Ace, SMC, I just keep them in a place with cool temperature and with 3.8v per cell and that's it
Most of us have the same positive experience. But that's not the point. Even after years of no problem you may face a faulty pack. With production under pressure to become cheaper and cheaper, they tend to use e.g. the flimsier (but cheaper) Chinese separators rather than those from eg U.S. suppliers. The chemistry constantly changes, too. So to be prepared for the day you run out of luck, that's where these storage solutions come into play.
@@HeliGraphix I understand you brother, that's why you have to buy quality, not all Chinese batteries are good, as I told you I have many and a long time Revolectrix, SMC, Gens Ace even phanter are great, I always check that they are not inflated, in good temperature and With tape on the connectors, another thing if you put all the lipo in that box and one explodes they will all screw up, I say I think
@@nossrc5638 ...the solution isn’t the LiPo, it’s the storage.... if you store max. 2 LiPos in one of those safes, you will be fine in an incident. If you do it like you do, the incident isn’t likely but if it happens, the heat is literally on...!😉
@@fragu123 yepp!!! Thats why i have 3 boxes , i dont storage all my lipos toguether 👍
Cool tests, but whatsup with those toxic fumes? I would love someone testing this kind of thing on a filtered location
This is a good point, I'd like to know, too. Word has it that the filtering of the BAT-Safe does not live up to the marketing claims. As you say, we'd need to take smoke samples from within the box and compare it to the filtered smoke. Or directly test the filter in the lid under controlled conditions.
@@HeliGraphix all the smoke in thr video, smoke from batteries.
What else should it be? Not sure I understand your thoughts.
@@gerekappo yes but the question is if the toxic particles of the smoke are being caught by the filter or not.
both have lot same, i just orden ammo box and tomorrow drill battery wire holes.
OR leave the seal, drill holes on the top lid and lien the inside (including under the lid to cover the holes).
Good idea, the lining should ideally be (besides fire-proof) smoke/fumes absorbing.
Good idea, wonder how well carbon cooker hood filters would do
Is a LiPo at the same danger-level as the Li-Ion ?
I have a bunge of Li-Ion for Cameras and so on.
So i was thinking about buying me a small Bat-Box for charging and a tall one for storage. :)
Could you help me with an opinion of yours?
LiPo is essentially just a version of Li-Ion. This said, there are dozens of different Li-Ion chemistries out there. Overall, the "danger level" is the same (with the exception of Li-Iron-Phosphate being very "stable" and forgiving). What makes LiPo more vulnerable is that they mostly come in pouches. Generally, Li batteries are a good and also safe technology; as with every manufacturing process, there are faults every so and so many items being produced. And under unfortunate circumstances such a faulty battery may not go dead but instead end in a thermal runaway. If you want to be on the safe side, a storage solution like the Bat-box should save you from greater harm in the unlikely yet possible event of a thermal runaway.
@@HeliGraphix Okay thanks for the quick answer, but what do you reommend: How many batteries should i put in one Bat Box and in one Military Case. I mean to much batteries are not good right ?
Like i described i wanted to use one normal Bad-Safe for charging and a militarybox/xl-Batsafe for storage. I mean it also would make sense to split the important batteries from the unimportant i guess?
(Btw. i saw my native language in your video as text, if it´s easier for you to text in german that would be fine :D)
There is a technical answer, and then there is an "organizational" answer. The technical one arguably is the easier one: multiplying the nominal battery voltage with the amp hours of the battery (e.g. 11 Volts x 2,2 Ah = 24,2 Wh). Each battery box is rated with a max. Wh that it can hold. So you can calculate how many batteries you may charge/store inside. Regarding Bat-box, to be on the safe side I'd leave a safety margin of 30 - 50%. For the ammo box there is of course no official rating, but from the videos you may draw your own conclusions.
The organizational answer: it may make sense to divide the batties (and fewer batteries in one compartment is always safer). However, the thermal runaway scenario is not your standard scenario; meaning you store them in safe boxes for the unlikely event that one of the batties goes off. And when this happens, the boxes will do their job. Whether a battery more survives or not is then pretty much secondary. So personally I would not necessarily split them up - but for your case, only you can answer that question. The one split that does make sense in my opinion: if you have batteries that you don't trust, i.e. which are more likely to go off. To store these separately from the "good ones" makes sense.
what about two bags thickness
Same result: at first bag #1 will fail, and right after bag #2. Given how fast the bags disintegrate you may not even notice any significant difference. Metal container it is!
@@HeliGraphix thx it make sense
What about bat safe box for ebike battery 48v .13ah. ?
The ebike batteries have too much energy and exceed the BatSafe's rating (side note: you should stay significantly below its stated limit). Also, most of them won't fit in.
what about a box just made of 2 layers of 5/8 in drywall using metal framing to form it. I may test something like this. Those Lipos are terrifying.
Very strange, I'm sure I'd replied to your comment already. Anyways, basically an idea that will work if executed with precision, and joints sealed properly (except a venting hole). Way easier would be to use the ammo box as an outer casing and to line it with the drywall. It won't solve the general venting issue but should keep the outside temperature much lower.
Wow a lot better than them lipo bags great vid
Everybody must decide for themselves, but if there's enough distance between box and any flammable material then both solutions work.
Be sure to inspect your batteries before using. They they are bulging, despose of them properly. Dont throw them in tge trash. You dont want a fire when it gets to the landfill or in the garbage truck.
All good advice, thanks for the reminder!
I drilled holes in to the top of my box to let some smoke out their not big though
Correct thinking based on the experiment that shows the ammo can bulging even without the rubber seal. Just make sure that fire jets which may shoot out cannot ignite anything. Thanks for sharing.
@@HeliGraphix I’m thinking about making a cabinet that is fire proof on the inside to allow for more battery storage and easier charging
I've seen solutions using a drywall lining. In one case a 6s battery went off and the case did well in containing the fire. The soot however was everywhere (they had to repaint the nearby walls) and for about 6 weeks the entire house smelled pretty aggressively like burnt material. Preventing the environment from catching fire is one thing, dealing with the smoke is another. There is - to my knowledge - no ultimate solution though, also not BAT-Safe.
Me too and i covered the inside with plasti dip to prevent eny shorts... but just realized i need way more holes on the top since i only have 2 atm
i charge my batteries without a box or bag at home have for many years. ive charged dozens of different lipos hundreds or maybe thousands of times and never had a problem with lipos catching on fire. i think charging to fast and going below the recommended cut off is what causes fire. not saying it cant happen but 99% of the time it is going to be user error that causes fire.
Same here. But I have 3 friends who weren't as lucky, and all of them pay lots of attention to detail (one of them luckily had a homebuilt metal case in place, probably saved his house). In general lithium batteries are safe. But there's roughly a one in a million chance for a faulty battery (single cell!), and somebody is that "unlucky winner". Considering that every battery contains several cells and that many people own more than one battery, that's quite a probability that sooner or later things might go South. Now, by far not every faulty cell leads to a fire; in fact, most will simply die and/or degrade battery performance. Still, in case the counting-out rhyme chooses you, you might want to be prepared.
@@HeliGraphix ive never had a faulty cell on a lipo. i have even ran a gens ace that was puffed to the point it was splitting the case and no fire. then was going to dispose of it and my friend wanted it and he ran it like that for along time but i wouldnt recommend that. ive found lipos to be just as safe as any other battery. thats why they use them in phones, drills, saws, flashlights....etc. no one puts those in fire proof cases when charging these things. i have several friend that never had problems with lipos ether. not sure why your 3 friends have had lipo fires that is odd to me. ive had several brands from smc, gens ace, sky lipo, turnigy, gforce, china hobby line, zippy, spc, goldbatt...etc. never had a problem with none of them. some perform better than other thats all. the sky lipo i bought in 2013 or 2014 and it still works great. if you balance charge at 1c and dont over gear your car or over prop your plane, dont over charge and always storage charge after your finished i cant see a lipo catching fire but it is always a good idea to be safe.
Thanks for the details! My personal experience is almost the same as yours. Still, there are many fires also with laptops, phones and power tools. Some time back I was involved as a consulter and looking into such cases. It's more than you would think. Not many in relation to the huge number of cells manufactured, but then again, some of them will fail and a small portion of them will end in a thermal runaway. I agree that a good deal of these could also have been prevented by better handling/storing.
At the end it all comes down to "better safe than sorry" - same as the airbag. Luckily, I have never needed one of these either. Yet I wouldn't want to drive without one. With lithium batteries it's a personal choice everyone needs to make.
Can you please confirm that they can heat up to 700 ºC ?
Why should he? Its theoretical spossible I guess
So plastic wouldn safe you lol
great video, thank you!!
Appreciate the comment. It motivates me to maybe also edit additional footage I have (but zero time to process it).
I use a wood burning stove for charging the stove pipe takes the fumes out of the home.
That's excellent
Someone drill fews hole on top ammo box release pressure of gass and fire. U not try that?
Not to my knowledge. Might be a good idea, just need to find a way to deal with that very hot (but then directional and thus theoretically controllable) fire and smoke exhaust jet.
@@HeliGraphixI see your box jump from pressure , few holes might help. try look at this
m.ua-cam.com/video/1jwS2puM800/v-deo.html
@@HeliGraphix One layer of glass fiber fabric will allow smoke to go out, but lock flames inside.
Or instead of drilling, remove the seals from the ammo can allowing pressure to escape and line it with Fiberglass or ceramic wool. Can get some scraps from a refractory supply house.
Both great ideas, thanks for the inspiration
Personally I'd recommend multiple small boxes over one big box. Otherwise all it takes it one battery to go off to destroy the rest. If you only have 2-3 batteries it won't be that much more expensive, if you have 10 it would be stupid to put them all in one box anyway
This makes sense.
Given that the catastrophic scenario is/should be the exception, then in case it does happen, saving the other batteries probably isn't the biggest concern, though. Yet again, having fewer batteries on fire is way better. The ZARGES container has different compartments where they claim/tested that the fire won't spread over to other compartments and set those batteries on fire, too.
I think it depends on your storage situation at home, if/how often you need to transport the batteries, and at which SOC (state of charge) you typically store them at. Either way, if you can, not putting all eggs into one basket is probably a smart idea. Thanks for your contribution.
I just wondering how big of a problem this really is, aside from charging? Yes, we all know that a Lithium battery that's gone bad can be a danger. We know that a LiPo that you think is good, but are charging can unexpectedly turn on you, just like a Pitbull. But just sitting around, especially if properly discharged to storage levels? Is this _really_ happening enough to worry about?
Risk is defined as potential damage x likelihood of its occurence. So even when the likelihood is low, a high potential damage (e.g. loss of property) still makes for a measurable risk. The question thus is - and everybody needs to individually evaluate that for themselves -, can you afford to burn down?
@@HeliGraphix you can look at it that way, but you could look at many things in life that way… do we always eat well, can you afford a heart attack or cancer?
Do we wear all the safety equipment we could or do we always drive the speed limit, can we afford death by accident or being crippled by accident?
We go swimming in the ocean, can the family afford me being eaten by a shark?
We go outside on a cloudy day, where are the odds getting hit by lightning?
However, I do agree you need to value the risk and put a cost to it . I worked in Naval air engineering for years and we always did a risk cube, and you measure the likelihood of it happening and the probability of happening and the cost of prevention and repair….
If we want to avoid the risk, the best thing is to pick another hobby that doesn’t involve Lipo batteries
Too bad BAT-SAFE is sold out. I'm not going to buy one from a random seller on Amazon so I guess ammo container it is!!
do the test leaving the seal in the ammo box, you may be surprised and get a better result, it won't explode trust me, if you want i'll even provide you with the box for the test
I'm not sure as I'd seen a video on the net (with rubber seal in place) where an ammo box blew open violently at one corner with a fire jet coming out. In my video here you can see how the very sturdy ammo box balloons more and more with every cell going off. So yes it won't "explode" but the desired result - namely fire protection - I doubt will be achieved better by not removing the rubber seal. I think it's rather the opposite.
really great stuff
thank you very much for this
I would like to see an ammo box filled with pyrobubbles.
Likely that's a good and safe way to store. It won't get rid of the exhaust fumes but should kill the fire bursts.
I Charge my lipos in a batbox but because if have so many i would need to buy 10 boxes to storage all.
So i use one to Charge and Transport them and the Others are at 3.8v in an old coalgrill in my Garage with nothing flamable in 2m range.
But till now i got lucky and nothing happend.
I had the same problem, thus bougth a Zarges Battery-Safe for storage. They have new version with better dimensions. I'll see if I can get one for fire-testing and will post a video around August. I'll also test a simple metal box in addition as some have suggested to do so. Let's see how it'll work out.
I have a new vid about LIPO storage with my invention / idea of the double can method to avoid chain reactions...
I don't understand. What is your so called invention ? It's just none-sealed metal boxes just like an ammo boxe.
@@fruitycoconut i have never seen someone puting a single lipopack in a double can cover. So yeah, I call it a kind of "invention". And yes it is like an ammo box. But it's just an additional "peel" of the "onion".
@@Sugalime3D_FPV then go patent it, we'll see if they labelise it as an invention. Then the day after i'll patent one with a triple can cover.
@@fruitycoconut something that was already published or is still on market can't be patented...
@@Sugalime3D_FPV
that's what i'm saying. The original invention was patented decades ago. That's why It's not an invention. You only enhanced something that's already exists. If I stick an hammer on my phone, it's not an invention. But if I create an hammer wich can take pictures or do phonecalls and nail things , that's an invention and I can patent it, a pretty dumb invention, but still.
cool video but idk why there has to be 3 when only one is needed
There are three reasons: (1) I'm doing this in my spare time and am very limited in what I can output. Knowing this situation, I wasn't sure if I'd manage to go through the whole content (remember this is way more than the final cut-down you are seeing on YT) - so I divided it into smaller chunks hoping to eventually output it all. (2) Second reason was that some people are looking for a specific piece of information only (actually I'm the same type of person), thus splitting it topic-wise makes sense. (3) From the beginning I've thought of this as an ongoing series. I've meanwhile further interesting tests available but not found the time to go through it for over a year. Maybe I need to break down also this one, otherwise it looks like I'm never going to get startet (no time!!!).
Does Bat Safe claim to filter away ALL toxic fumes?
I'd say they're not explicit, but it's somehow implied. Yet they cannot and don't. This said, while we would still need to see whether the filter has any effect at all, any filtering is arguably better than none.
Would the optimal cheap solution then be: Take a lipo bag, and put it in a metal box.(without rubber like your metal one)
The bag won't make a difference, so the cheap solution is the metal box only. You might use drywall as a lining, that keeps the heat away better. The metal case should be stored away from flammable material/surfaces as short fire jets could still come out and the case can get very hot.
You said the ammo box gets to about 700° but you didnt say how hot the bat-safe box got.
The ammo box has no insulation so its outside temperature is pretty much the same as inside. The BAT-Safe does have some insulation so will be considerably less; I have to say we didn't measure that one (should have done it though). It was too hot to open by hand so I'd guess between 100 and 200 Celsius (the smoke burst potentially exceeding this).
@@HeliGraphix interesting. Thanks for response!
Top fpv must have! and the smoke is so filtered u can breath it technically lol.. I wouldn't lol but I can't recommend this ENOUGH, a must have!! ANYONE who charges lipos NEEDS this.. ASK is your home and families lives worth the price of a battbox? Mine are!
I have a lot of animals, if my bat box was to catch fire in the middle of the night we stand A VERY GOOD chance of little to no damage, or casualtiesnoe dead frogs (our ambitious critters are extremely environmentally delicate and toxins in the air will kill them. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the crew who designed this for their intenseive R and D that was done, its above and beyond.... those aren't JUST heppa vents byw they are some kind of military grade filter like you find in gas masks..pretty amazing and good company. And no I don't get a free box for the endorsement lol but who knows what's around the corner maybe a product from isdt and battbox...? Maybe a crazy new product you never know but for now stock up charge safe! Store safe! And DISPOSE OF USED LIPOS PROPERLY DON'T RUIN OUR HOBBY and think of ANY wild animals UNLUCKY enough to find one... be smart.. fly hard!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, always welcome!
I subd because of this vid 👍👍
Ill take 50mm ammo cans fooooooooo sooooooo 👊
Thanks man. Once I find the time I'll publish more footage on latest tests.
The lack of vents in the ammo box really scares me.
True, however keep in mind that ammo boxes haven't been designed to safely store our lithium batteries. Check out the comments below for some creative solutions how to improve an ammo box using simple DIY stuff.
Get a bat box they kick ass for storage not just charging.. IF U EVER are the unlucky one unexpectedly u and your home, families and animals will survive with little to no damage.... how are all of you not ordering 12?
Not that impressed with the bat safe for the money. I use an old steel toolbox with a couple lipo bags inside.
The batt safe is proof you can sell ice cubes to Eskimos
Why's that Robert - does it not work safely enough in your opinion?
@@bb-ballistics1706 because it's a $50 decorative cookie tin with holes in it.
@@HeliGraphix I think for the price you would be better off with an old metal toolbox lined with a lipo bag, or doubling up an ammo can with a lipo bag. It's cheaper this way not to have all of your eggs in one basket. People will perpetuate the myth of exploding ammo cans to sell their gimmicks though. A vented box makes for a good flamethrower, so the liner is meant to help contain the flame at the height of the event. The batt safe just strikes me as being overpriced and still could use a liner of some kind.
@Matthew Hayslett you don't have to justify your purchase to me by rambling over the spec sheet. I've see enough videos of it to know it's a $60 flamethrower marketed to people who are used to overpaying for things. The batt safe is not lined at all where the vents are. The filter is steel mesh, similar in theory to that seen on a grill. A used steel toolbox lined with a lipo bag is cheaper and more effective. This might work if you're new and want to put your little $70 traxxas lipo in it. Not a good idea keeping all of your eggs in one basket, though.
@@Largetalons you are some what correct if you are a do it your-selfer, but if you aren't, comparing $50 to x amount of dollars a structure fire could cost you, $50 is nothing. I've created something similar for way less money. You can simply use an ammo box, or what I personally did was get a metal first aid box, line the outer walls with drywall and create dividers / separators for each lipo battery using hardi-backer. I was able to make two of these boxes which hold 4 lipos each. Theres a video on YT where a guy burns something inside of a make shift cube of drywall and is able to pick up the drywall cub with his bare fingers after the fire had burned for several min.
On another note, I don't know why so many people store so many lipos in one container at a time. If one goes, they all go.
So i did have the good idea. Yes there is a lot of smoke but no fire outside the box.
Lipo batteries are a pain in the ass
You need to go 1 month vacations and that shits can explote in your home (even inside a cage) activacting all the smoke alarms
I don't understand how this batteries are legal to use.
You've got a point there, but well, there's not really an alternative to this technology at the moment. Should we have electric cars all over the place, chances are we'll see quite some serious fires.
Gaston Maqueda well if you treat them safely you’ll have no issues. I’ve had a lot of lipos over the years, some which have been untouched for months and they remained safe.
They are allowed to ship by air so untouched , and half charged they are safe, if something is going to happen with lipo , it will happen during charging or discharging
You go
Away leave it outside in an ammo box away from a anything, done deal
wish they had a box the size and quality of Zarges battery safe C model priced for poor people. can't find anything less than 1000$ that can fit a 72v 2800w 40AH behemoth battery. none of the "cheap stuff" will cover that level of an explosion. literally better off making a case for less than 300$ yourself. last thing you'd want is a wreck and a battery like that incinerating you and the whole blocks away from you ;)
That is one hell of a battery! As you say, if this goes off you will need a massive container to contain the firestorm. What makes ZARGES expensive is the 3rd party certification - but this then means their products are truly up for the specified Wh rating.
Please try the ammo can with the seal left in place. The seal should stop the process. You need air for combustion.
The thermal runaway unfortunately works its way to disaster state without outside air. The seal will cause even more ballooning of the ammo box (you see it clearly in the video despite the real thick metal walls), eventually it will burst somewhere with a sharp fire jet or worse. It definitely won't stop the process. Your thought is a good one, but rest assured the seal will not stop anything. You'll also see that in the next video with the professional industrial solution; lid with seal closed, same reaction (but different effect due to different case design).
without a seal, the space inside the case will run out of oxygen pretty fast, so should have the same effect.
a gentle release is safer than trying to bottle it all up
I charge my battery for ebike under my bed when I'm sleeping so if it goes off I wake up instantly and can evacuate the house
We should pin this comment to the top 😄
😂😂😂😂😂...... really 😲😲😲😲😲....... 🙄
You should put it under your pillow so you can hear it better.
A guys house burned to the ground in my hometown from charging a LiPo in his garage
Thanks for letting us know. It does happen time and again, even though it's a rather rare occasion. But tell it to the guy to whom it happens. And sure enough, none of us wants to be that guy!
PLEASE don't forget you PETS especially when not home.. Even if you successfully contain the fire the Smoke and fumes will still kill your pets.
Bat box seems like a good option for those paranoid people who are new to the hobby and only have one battery
Over the years, I have come to know three persons who had lipo fires: in one case half the house burnt down, the other lost his car, third case was less grave as he had kept the lipo in money cassette but still had to redo his entire basement and the smell wasn't gone until after 6 months. It's rare that an incident happens, but no fun at all when it does. Not sure we should thus call it paranoia as this implies that there is no risk.
@@HeliGraphix just so you know, I said paranoid as in myself although I did not make that clear from the comment
@@therandompineapple3805 OK!
If you are out and one goes in a ammo can...your house will have smoke damage for years
True. A very similar scenario happened to a friend of mine, he had stored them in a money case in the basement. Luckily the door to the rest of the house had been closed. He had to redecorate the basement and you could still smell it throughout the house for weeks. But the house was still standing, no damage besides the afore mentioned.
@@HeliGraphix I'd be worried.about breathing it too
Yes correct - and even at a very faint level, question is could/will it do something harmful if you breathed it in over a longer period of time
@@HeliGraphix I'm out ...😅