Thats very intereresting. I always suspected about a bad correlation between aminos and dinos specifically, since there are many reefers stating that the start of amino dosing triggered dino outbreaks. This was particularlly about the red sea ab+ but now im starting to think that the whole amino acid insertion can lead to many other bad outbreaks, not only dinos. Great video. First one i see covering this topic.
Thanks, friend! Yeah, the companies of the reefkeeping hobby just want people to keep buying bottles of juice. That’s their whole angle. So just because corals happen to use amino acids, the companies go: “Great, let’s encourage reefkeepers to buy bottles of aminos and dump them in their tanks, more cash for us.” People don’t know the science. So they buy the bottles, trying to help their animals. In reality, corals get plenty of aminos, even from us feeding our fish, so we’re excessively flooding our systems with aminos by dosing them out of bottles, and very likely fueling more bad guys than we are helping the good guys. I respect the science above all else, and this is what the science is indicating.
I think people fail to realize that amino acids are the building blocks of protein. What’s in fish food? Mostly protein. What’s in protein? Amino Acids. Therefore, everyone is dosing amino acids if they are feeding their tank. Adding a specific bottle of amino acids just isn’t necessary. A 9th grade biology class refresher would do this hobby wonders and save people a lot of money.
@@TrevorHiller Right. You’re putting them into your tank all the time. Dumping way more than needed into the tank just isn’t needed. Some lesson in there about “too much of anything isn’t good” or something, you know?
Ha, well thank you. I stumble my way through reefkeeping explanations, I feel like. I’m much smoother teaching my particular subject matter in front of a group of young people 🤣😂
FWIW, Mack from Mack's dino support group has stated that Amino's are suspected food source for Dinos. Lou Ekus has mentioned on several occasions that the Tropic Marin research has found in the literature that corals eat bacteria, so the latest experiments from Allen Vo via-a-vis gut loaded pro-biotic bacteria is an ideal food source for corals and benefecial bacterial colony to compete with pests.
@@cesarjuarez2066 You’ll never keep all carbon addition out of your tank, I don’t think, just because you’ve got to feed the animals, especially if you’ve got fish. But yes, I try to reduce all carbon sources contributing to dissolved organic carbon levels in my reef tank.
@@michaelho1671 I subscribe to the science, not to experience. The actual science shows that adding additional aminos to your tank is likely not that beneficial to the animals, but highly beneficial to pathogenic “bad guys” in the microbiome. Of course, with great reefkeeping practice, you can keep visible negative impacts of significant extra amino acid dosing at bay. This creates a sort of falsehood, where you’re attributing success to amino acid dosing that you should really just be attributing to your good coral husbandry. At least, this is my take on the whole thing, after listening to leading scientific minds in the hobby.
Breakdown of aminos contribute to DOC. Other things can also contribute toward high DOC. Conditions of high DOC, coupled with an abiotic stress event (such as pH swing, Alk Spike, Temp Spike, loss of flow etc.) create conditions where a pathogenic bacteria can take over and cause dysbiosis and ultimately disease. Not pathogenic bacteria preferentially take up aminos compared to good bacteria. You are by your own admission a heavy feeder. All that uneaten food... breaks down into aminos. Aminos in the fish poop too. Ammonia can be a coral food source without the carbon that contributes to DOC. NH2/3 vs NH2/3-R-CH2-COOH But no one has shared data on the effect that ammonia dosing has on the microbiome. At least not publicly, unless its been shared privately in a private old boys club just like the vendors at the end of a trade show. If you're in the cool club you get to see the data early. If not, tough. And so if there is no data, this for me comes down to a lack of critical thought. You stopped aminos, because data shows (in truth suggests) aminos are (in truth probably) taken up preferentially by bad bacteria (in truth a leading contributor of DOCm that can be utilized by potentially bad bacteria). And this comes from leading minds in the field. Ok cool. So is there data to show that ammonia doesn't do the same? Side issue, what happens if you accidentally overdose ammonia, what realtime test do you have that could pick that up, and what is your e-plan for if that happens? Surely a more holistic and safer approach would be feeding life foods (pods, phyto, etc) to the system, that could provide nutrition to the corals without any of the risks? Without the data on ammonia, this is the same level of logic as setting your lights without a PAR meter. Especially as you refuse to test DOC or your biome. You're eyeballing it. And I know you don't do that with your lights. You're also eyeballing that there is no negative effect of removing aminos BTW. I actually doubt there would be a negative effect of removing aminos but you don't know. Maybe in your system the good bacteria have adapted to an abundance of nutrition in the water and now you're disrupting that. You'll never know because you don't have biomics data. In a video you said if you sense something going bad... well we've got reef jesus, this must make you reef Obi Wan Kenobi sensing issues. Previously Jake was on the pedestal correct. Now you're putting others on the same pedestal. The hobby has a whole has a real problem with deifying people. It comes from how uninformed the hobbyist community is on the whole. This is something companies have taken advantage of, see MB7 and lacto bacillus... Just my two cen... dollars worth - you're doing things with your tank to deliberately influence a factor that you could, but won't test for. Closing your eyes, and hoping for the best. As i said the other day - good luck
You’re not off about ammonium bicarbonate. That’s fair for sure. However, I don’t refuse to test. You’re personally aware I’ll be able to do that soon enough, with my income shift in a few weeks. Yeah, I probably jumped the gun trying ammonia without the deep testing. I am human. I get excited and want to try new stuff too. As for deifying, I’m not. I would argue that the utter lack of choice of individuals who are actually qualified to speak about the matters being discussed here, kind of forces common reefers like myself (read: no formal science education) to just try their best to find the most legitimate voices speaking on these complex matters within the hobby. I listen to Bouwma, Salem, Eli. I don’t really know of many others who are putting their voice out into the public reefing sphere, and are not trying to sell magic juice in bottles, who I could look to for guidance.
@@kalamazoo_reefer Ammonia dosing data - The only standout changes i see in Bouwma's data is the decrease in flavobacteriaceae (green) and an increase in vibrio (magenta). From AB website: Flavobacteriaceae levels are highest in waters with the highest levels of dissolved organic carbon (DOC). These levels are also positively associated with ammonia, indicating a general overall association with high nutrient levels. This seems contrary to the Bouwma data. I don't know why . The Flavobacteriaceae are found at higher levels in algal-dominated reefs, and lower levels in healthy coral-dominated habitats Vibrio according to Salem is the family of bad guys. Yes coral growth went crazy, but that data looks like it has expanded the population of potentially pathogenic bacteria. So maybe actually priming for disaster if an abiotic stress event comes along. Be cool to test that but I wouldn't ask any reefer to do that. The notes on the AB site say, it is not advised to promote this population, probably due to their pathogenic potential.
![Chris Langan - The Interview THEY Didn't Want You To See - CTMU [Full Version; Timestamps]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9miVG2xT5jY/mqdefault.jpg)
Thats very intereresting. I always suspected about a bad correlation between aminos and dinos specifically, since there are many reefers stating that the start of amino dosing triggered dino outbreaks. This was particularlly about the red sea ab+ but now im starting to think that the whole amino acid insertion can lead to many other bad outbreaks, not only dinos. Great video. First one i see covering this topic.
Thanks, friend! Yeah, the companies of the reefkeeping hobby just want people to keep buying bottles of juice. That’s their whole angle. So just because corals happen to use amino acids, the companies go: “Great, let’s encourage reefkeepers to buy bottles of aminos and dump them in their tanks, more cash for us.” People don’t know the science. So they buy the bottles, trying to help their animals. In reality, corals get plenty of aminos, even from us feeding our fish, so we’re excessively flooding our systems with aminos by dosing them out of bottles, and very likely fueling more bad guys than we are helping the good guys. I respect the science above all else, and this is what the science is indicating.
I think people fail to realize that amino acids are the building blocks of protein. What’s in fish food? Mostly protein. What’s in protein? Amino Acids. Therefore, everyone is dosing amino acids if they are feeding their tank. Adding a specific bottle of amino acids just isn’t necessary. A 9th grade biology class refresher would do this hobby wonders and save people a lot of money.
@@TrevorHiller Right. You’re putting them into your tank all the time. Dumping way more than needed into the tank just isn’t needed. Some lesson in there about “too much of anything isn’t good” or something, you know?
Yes Trevor!
@@gomisreef Trevor’s the man.
I know you’ve mentioned you’re a teacher, and I really like the way you explain topics! no coincidence I suppose 😂
Ha, well thank you. I stumble my way through reefkeeping explanations, I feel like. I’m much smoother teaching my particular subject matter in front of a group of young people 🤣😂
FWIW, Mack from Mack's dino support group has stated that Amino's are suspected food source for Dinos. Lou Ekus has mentioned on several occasions that the Tropic Marin research has found in the literature that corals eat bacteria, so the latest experiments from Allen Vo via-a-vis gut loaded pro-biotic bacteria is an ideal food source for corals and benefecial bacterial colony to compete with pests.
Would the same concept apply to carbon dosing
@@cesarjuarez2066 You’ll never keep all carbon addition out of your tank, I don’t think, just because you’ve got to feed the animals, especially if you’ve got fish. But yes, I try to reduce all carbon sources contributing to dissolved organic carbon levels in my reef tank.
Yo man those monster colonies are really distracting LOL, and i can't believe the size of those RFAs, amazing.
@@josgraha I can grow LPS like weeds, SPS are just beginning to pick up pace lol. SPS is not my strong suit. I’ll get there 😂
I have a full tank of sps and I can see that dosing amino does have good affect for my tank. I can only speak for my tank as every tank is different.
@@michaelho1671 I subscribe to the science, not to experience. The actual science shows that adding additional aminos to your tank is likely not that beneficial to the animals, but highly beneficial to pathogenic “bad guys” in the microbiome. Of course, with great reefkeeping practice, you can keep visible negative impacts of significant extra amino acid dosing at bay. This creates a sort of falsehood, where you’re attributing success to amino acid dosing that you should really just be attributing to your good coral husbandry. At least, this is my take on the whole thing, after listening to leading scientific minds in the hobby.
Best salt you can get is fauna marin, cleanest salt and everything in it matches natural sea water.
I know very little about it. Actually, I didn’t know they sold a salt mix! Interesting.
All of their products are really good, it's all I use besides red seas 4 part dosing regiment@@kalamazoo_reefer
Breakdown of aminos contribute to DOC. Other things can also contribute toward high DOC. Conditions of high DOC, coupled with an abiotic stress event (such as pH swing, Alk Spike, Temp Spike, loss of flow etc.) create conditions where a pathogenic bacteria can take over and cause dysbiosis and ultimately disease. Not pathogenic bacteria preferentially take up aminos compared to good bacteria.
You are by your own admission a heavy feeder. All that uneaten food... breaks down into aminos. Aminos in the fish poop too.
Ammonia can be a coral food source without the carbon that contributes to DOC. NH2/3 vs NH2/3-R-CH2-COOH
But no one has shared data on the effect that ammonia dosing has on the microbiome. At least not publicly, unless its been shared privately in a private old boys club just like the vendors at the end of a trade show. If you're in the cool club you get to see the data early. If not, tough.
And so if there is no data, this for me comes down to a lack of critical thought.
You stopped aminos, because data shows (in truth suggests) aminos are (in truth probably) taken up preferentially by bad bacteria (in truth a leading contributor of DOCm that can be utilized by potentially bad bacteria). And this comes from leading minds in the field. Ok cool. So is there data to show that ammonia doesn't do the same? Side issue, what happens if you accidentally overdose ammonia, what realtime test do you have that could pick that up, and what is your e-plan for if that happens? Surely a more holistic and safer approach would be feeding life foods (pods, phyto, etc) to the system, that could provide nutrition to the corals without any of the risks?
Without the data on ammonia, this is the same level of logic as setting your lights without a PAR meter. Especially as you refuse to test DOC or your biome. You're eyeballing it. And I know you don't do that with your lights. You're also eyeballing that there is no negative effect of removing aminos BTW. I actually doubt there would be a negative effect of removing aminos but you don't know. Maybe in your system the good bacteria have adapted to an abundance of nutrition in the water and now you're disrupting that. You'll never know because you don't have biomics data. In a video you said if you sense something going bad... well we've got reef jesus, this must make you reef Obi Wan Kenobi sensing issues.
Previously Jake was on the pedestal correct. Now you're putting others on the same pedestal. The hobby has a whole has a real problem with deifying people. It comes from how uninformed the hobbyist community is on the whole. This is something companies have taken advantage of, see MB7 and lacto bacillus...
Just my two cen... dollars worth - you're doing things with your tank to deliberately influence a factor that you could, but won't test for. Closing your eyes, and hoping for the best.
As i said the other day - good luck
@@gomisreef ua-cam.com/users/livei0P3bWcK72w?si=kORBPWxi2J-rluKr
You’re not off about ammonium bicarbonate. That’s fair for sure. However, I don’t refuse to test. You’re personally aware I’ll be able to do that soon enough, with my income shift in a few weeks. Yeah, I probably jumped the gun trying ammonia without the deep testing. I am human. I get excited and want to try new stuff too. As for deifying, I’m not. I would argue that the utter lack of choice of individuals who are actually qualified to speak about the matters being discussed here, kind of forces common reefers like myself (read: no formal science education) to just try their best to find the most legitimate voices speaking on these complex matters within the hobby. I listen to Bouwma, Salem, Eli. I don’t really know of many others who are putting their voice out into the public reefing sphere, and are not trying to sell magic juice in bottles, who I could look to for guidance.
Drive down and help me do ammonium hydroxide. It’ll be safe in a residential home setting. I’ve got rubber gloves. Lmao.
@@kalamazoo_reefer Ammonia dosing data - The only standout changes i see in Bouwma's data is the decrease in flavobacteriaceae (green) and an increase in vibrio (magenta).
From AB website: Flavobacteriaceae levels are highest in waters with the highest levels of dissolved organic carbon (DOC). These levels are also positively associated with ammonia, indicating a general overall association with high nutrient levels. This seems contrary to the Bouwma data. I don't know why . The Flavobacteriaceae are found at higher levels in algal-dominated reefs, and lower levels in healthy coral-dominated habitats
Vibrio according to Salem is the family of bad guys. Yes coral growth went crazy, but that data looks like it has expanded the population of potentially pathogenic bacteria. So maybe actually priming for disaster if an abiotic stress event comes along. Be cool to test that but I wouldn't ask any reefer to do that. The notes on the AB site say, it is not advised to promote this population, probably due to their pathogenic potential.
@@kalamazoo_reefer I swear I replied to this comment and it has disappeared...
Man I hope AA’s aren’t that much of a problem. I got a shit ton of AF reef salt to go through 😢
Me too. I’ve got it off my main system. But I’ll be using the rest up on my other two tanks. Sad panda.
@@kalamazoo_reefer Tropic Marin pro reef was good for me but not my pockets. Let’s hope for a sale soon