I'm converted, he really did do nothing wrong and was constantly accused by his own brothers of treachery and was then even attacked by the space wolf legion who tried to kill him after he desperately tried to warn the emperor of the real betrayal. Everyone was a complete arsehole to him when he was the one person with actual common sense. If I were in his position after all that i'd say "fuck it, kill them all" too.
>Magnus still damages the throne in his haste to warn the Emperor >The Emperor heeds the warning, but still intends to reprimand Magnus >He sends Russ with explicit orders to not heed any orders given by Horus >Russ and the Wolves confront Magnus and the Sons >There's perhaps a small skirmish, as many of the Sons think they did nothing wrong and shouldn't be reprimanded >In the confusion, the Death Guard and Sons of Horus attack, as Horus realizes Magnus has revealed his treachery >Magnus and Russ are forced to fight side by side against the traitors, but the two forces are overwhelmed and must retreat >Magnus uses his powers to teleport his Sons and the Wolves to their fleets, but fails to save himself as Horus and Mortarion confront him >Magnus duels his brothers, his psychic might being the only thing giving him an advantage against two Primarchs >Seeing that the battle is lost, and his people have made it off the planet, Magnus opens a massive Warp rift above the planet, and Prospero falls into the Immaterium, dragging the traitor fleets in with it Magnus is MIA, the traitors are temporarily set back, Prospero still burns, but the Imperium is bolstered by the very vengeful Thousand Sons, and we get a baddass three way Primarch fight.
Small skermish doesn‘t work since. A) Tzeentch controls the flesh curse, aka the biggest barganing chip against the TS B) The tutelaries are still around to manipulate the sons.
Considering that Malcador could kill Horus without much difficulty on his part, and that Magnus is more powerful than Malcador I don't think he would be so easily overwhelmed, specially if we consider the presence of Leman in this hypothetical scenario
i can see the alternate history now >thousand sons remain loyal due to the edict of nikaea not knee capping the legion of sorcerers >alpha legion becomes the chapter to gain tzeentch's favor with alpharius becoming a demon prince of tzeentch >alpha legion splits as omegon stays loyal to the imperium leading to omegon taking up the name alpharius as the chapter becomes split between loyalist and heretic sides >magnus warns the emperor about horus possibly without screwing up the human webway project as badly due to being able to openly practice magic >leman rus doesn't get sent to bring magnus in and magnus gets told about the golden throne and his role in operating it >thousand sons use their magic to bolster the imperium's defenses while the full force of the space wolves is there to provide support in the coming battle >not bound to the golden throne the emperor is able to lead the battle personally with the aid of malcador and thanks to magnus being on the throne malcador doesn't surrender his life and is able to use his psychic powers to aid the emperor in the coming battle >the emperor defeats horus this time without taking mortal damage >the emperor picks up the pieces and moves forward with what's left of the astartes legions continuing to spread the imperial truth now with the horus heresy thoroughly crushed
i agree with everything except that Big E still wouldn't have killed Horus, since he wanted to save him. Emps would have gotten nearly killed, and then mister multiverse balls... erm... Ollanius Pious wouldve sacrificed himself and Emps wouldve killed Horus. He wouldnt die, but Malcador wouldve prolly done some warp fuckery to save him/use his lifeforce to restore Emps to a liveable (maybe coma-like state (not as major as current, but maybe like pre-awakening Guilliman)) state. Sanguinius would be dead (fucking prophecy), but there would be more loyalist primarchs alive, and they would take their legions and go conquer the galaxy while BIG E recovers. (somethings may be wrong as i have only read 2 books (novels) and neither of them are pre-heresy)
Thousand Sons: We are all psykers Imperium: Boo! Weirdos! Freaks! Grey Knights: We are all psykers Imperium: Yay! The holiest of all holy! Magnus the Red: Am I a joke to you?
Well, holiest of all holy until they need to bath is Sororitas blood to prevent corruption from Khornate daemons. No, I'm never letting that go, and Matt Ward should never be allowed to live that down.
Really the Primarchs acted like actual children over Psykers, refusing to fight alongside FRIENDLY FORCES over them having a different outlook and style of warfare. That'd be like the Marines refusing to fight alongside the Army in conflict, it doesn't make sense and is completely idiotic. The compromise suggested was by far the best option, train the Librarians intensively, and bolster your own forces immensely. Also I disagree with the idea that the Thousand Sons staying loyal would be "slim". From what I've read/heard my understanding is that initially Magnus was going to accept the Emperors degree and die when the Space Wolves began razing Prospero, not wanting to commit any more "sins" for lack of a better term. But his immense psychic power had him hearing his people be slaughtered and could not take it anymore and began to fight back. - So if the Burning of Prospero never occurred, the primary reason for his turning to the traitors for sanctuary would not exist, which accounted for somewhere around 80-90% of the reason he turned. I doubt he would turn traitor over being looked down upon by others for using psychic abilities, and instead would strive to prove them all wrong about their assumptions.
not really. psykers are perhaps the single most dangerous thing in 40k. and i dont mean that they are the most powerful or the most deadly soldiers. i mean they are the most unstable and unpredictable. even a trained psyker can become possessed or corrupted by a deamon, or simply mutated by the energy of the warp. in an already unpredictable environment such as a battlefield, the last thing you need to worry about is that one or more of your soldiers may suddenly begin attacking friend and foe indiscriminately or turn into a writhing mass of tentacles that does the same. the primarchs were generals. and there would be no reason for a general to view such an unstable weapon as desirable or even viable, when the imperium's military technology was already superior to virtually everything else they encountered in 30k.
commie416 not entirely true as pointed out in this video that psykers are especially potent against warp entities. There are also the grey knights which have no records of ever turning to chaos or becoming daemon possessed. So like any tool of war, proper precautions ensure proper safe use
Another issue is that some Primarchs hated psykers for personal reasons. Mortarion and the Death Guard despised psykers due to years of living under psychic warlords. Angron hated psykers because their powers caused him pain due to reacting with the Butcher's Nails. Perturabo was too close-minded to ever consider psykers, and Leman Russ was just a massive hypocrite so they do not count.
@@commie4164 Untrained psykers are the most dangerous thing in 40k. As has been proven countless times the sheer existence of the Warp can corrupt just about anything be they psykers or not. The entire Traitor Legions show the corrupting effect of the Warp on non psykers. The fact the Eldar have not all been instantly killed given their heavy use of psyker abilities disproves this argument right away. Otherwise they should have been killed for thousands of years ago.
I cheered when Ahriman sent Wyrdmake's soul to be ripped apart in the warp. Nothing but a dirty two faced hypocrite and he deserved what he got. Did Magnus screw up? Yes. Did he deserve what happened to him? I don't think so.
couldn't agree more... I hated Wyrdmake almost as much as fucking Erebus. It was a really nice payback especially Wyrdmake realising what Space Wolves had done before his death.
@@MDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMD Oh it would have, but if *anyone* would have talked to *anyone else* (yes, looking at you big E), the whole HH wouldn't have happened.
I imagine that the Emperor would probably revise the Edict to allow the continued existence of the Librarius, but the Chaplaincy would probably still be implemented to appease Magnus's detractors by monitoring any and all psykers within the Legions for signs of corruption and disloyalty. It's entirely possible that the Chaplaincy may have even been expanded to include Blanks, with the Sisters of Silence being dispatched to supplement the Chaplaincy in the time it would take for such a force to be established. This would give the Emperor and Malcador eyes and ears in every Legion, limiting the Traitors' movements and suppressing the influence of Chaos, which could drastically affect how events would turn out for the Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, and even the Night Lords. This would also establish Blanks as a known and highly valued element in Imperial society, and they might have even been elevated to similar level of prestige as the Navigator Houses.
Except Navigators are much less likely to make you want to tear your own eyes out or straight up kill you by standing in the same elevator. Agree that a system like the Chaplains would still have been implemented and it would have greatly slowed the progress or perhaps prevented much of the Heresy. I don’t think the Sisters of Silence or Blanks would been added to the Chaplains as it would create wayyy to many problems for the typical legion to deal with. Notable exception being Rogal Dickhead who would probably request some and still kick out all psykers because it’s the most sickest thing to do with the least amount of effort just as he likes it. And also probably the Space Wolves cause fuck those guys lol #Magnusdidnothingwrong
There seems to be incompatibilities between Blank aspirants and the space marine implantation process. It might have to do with the progenoids, but it's part of why there aren't Blank marines in M41.
I mean he sent Custodians to keep an eye on the Word Bearers and you saw how that worked, I doubt sending some sisters would've made any difference other than having less around Himself
As someone who more or less reads/listens to general lore my impression at the very least is Magnus probably would not have turned traitor since he was loyal to the Emperor and even hid the presence of the Imperial fleet from Prospero itself since he accepted the consequences of the Emperor's order of extermination for breaking the Edict of Nikea as well as destroying the web way project. It wasn't until he saw the ashes of his Legion and he was given an out that he flipped. Also could have been minimized in hindsight if the Emperor was more open about his project in general and the existence of the Warp in the first place since the Emperor's secrecy on a lot of things certainly help plant the seeds of many of the traitor legions leaving including Horus himself.
The risk was too high, the Emperor didn't know of whatever warp bullshit could've happened to the primarchs after they were taken away Even the possibility they were dead was likely, Malcador and Valdor certainly thought so
He only really "flipped" when several of his Shards outright refused to return to him. Can't really stay good if you lose everything that made you good.
That’s just it: the existence of Chaos itself, the actual fact it exists, is dangerous. Dangerous to regular old humans, dangerous to inquisitors, and yes, dangerous to primarchs. It is known that the Emperor told one Primarch about Chaos, one the Emperor knew wouldn’t fall to its temptations. We don’t actually know which Primarch was told, though I believe - like most of the lore community - it was the Lion. However, the were Primarchs that Big E knew absolutely should not be told of Chaos, because they’d fall to it, either through personality quirks or a burning curiosity that would lead them to the forbidden. Magnus the Red was one of the latter. Imagine that you grew up in a society where the concept of racism did not exist. No one had even thought of it. Your leader, though, knows of racism. He wants to start a breeding program to make super humans, but he knows if the concept of racism is known, some people will inevitably fall into it and instead of wanting to breed better traits, they’ll want to breed out “negative” traits. The Emperor knew that chaos is strengthened by belief, just as he is now. That’s why the Inquisition would rather raze an entire world than have the “secret” get out. Even if the imperium’s citizens know of Chaos but refuse to listen to the temptations, just their belief that chaos is a thing strengthens it.
To be fair, they intentionally woven so much ritualistic behavior and strength of belief into their psyker practices that, ironically, they made themselves far less corruptible
One of the reasons Magnus found out about the treachery, as well as why he choose to warn the Emperor in a way that broke the Terran webway, was because he was desperate to prove that the edict was wrong. Without the Edict, the Sons would have been out campaigning, and Istvaan would have caught them off guard as well.
True, but he'd still get hit w/the ol' "Horn-tits" wise crack...(or worse yet, that Russ was still "better" than he was...) ~Cue "Doom-Bolt to the Face..!"~
Perhaps the Emperor could've pulled Magnus through the webway tear to sit on the gold porta-potty lighthouse while He amassed his forces to contain the daemons. Although the Thousand Sons would be inconvenienced by the loss of their primarch, Magnus could've started his penance while actually alive and relatively well instead of what happened to the Emperor post-heresy.
Tho events like the duel probably wouldn't change in the above scenario, the Emperor might've had the capability to resurrect using His perpetual properties. Also, Malcador wouldn't have had to sacrifice himself to maintain the Golden Throne. Also, with Magnus and the Thousand Sons as loyalists, they might've played a bigger part in defending Sol in realspace and the warp.
@@Sigismund697 I really doubt that, Russ was the one Primarch that The Emperor never had a fear of falling to the temptations of the Warp. He always and always will be His most loyal son.
@@supercellodude not to mention that the Thousand Sons could have destroyed the Fleet sent to Prospero whilst they were still in the warp... If they were still loyal due to the Edict of Nikaea then it is my belief that they'd have turned that sheer amount of power upon the forces of Chaos...
Another possible outcome to magnus' warning for the Emperor while causing the damage to the webway is that instead of sending rus to bring magnus in chains he could simply recall magnus directly therefore avoiding the burning of prospero. This could occur as the Emperor seeing magnus' actions (while still damaging his project) as good natured and simply trying to help.
The loyal Sons of Russ never sullied their honour with the foul witchery of the warp. By the way, have you met our Runepriest? He'll divine your future and fire lightning from his fingertips. Wolves: this is fine.
Yeah this one of my biggest problems with the space wolves, they BLATANTLY utilize psykers all the time yet deny they are psykers. There is literally not a single difference. They are malificarum
@@TheRedJadex that would make a hell of a headstone; "Here lies one brave enough to slap Russ. There's also some bits over there, and some there, but most of them is in this hole."
Corvus: all Psykers should be banned, they are a risk for the Imperium and Humanity at large! Magnus: why are you invisible all of a sudden? Corax: it's nothing! Nothing at all!
later tts corvus:sooo uh....i know i sort of got a bit assholish with the nikea incident but uh...ik you understandably hate leman but we good? magnus:ugh....yeah we are im not gonna hold it aganst you 10 milenia in the making. doesnt mean i excuse your part in it though you daemonic fuck. corvus:...thats fair enough. leman:ahem. so uh....magnus magnus:FUUUUUUCK YOU LEMANNNNN! leman:soo regarding... our issues you wanna get it all out or? magnus:...dear gods yes but we're taking it somewhere else damm it. WITHOUT YOUR HELP TZEENCH! tzeench:*quickly fucks off before true death by anathema*
You're my favorite 40k channel in YT. Instead of watching TV, I browse your productions. Far more entertaining and informative. Warhammer 40k lore is AWESOME.
14:02 I feel like without the edict of Nikaea the emperor wouldn't have built the webway project in such a way that Magnus magic calling him would damage it. That or he would tell Magnus 'if you ever need to use sorcery to contact me in an emergency, contact Malcador instead and he'll relay the message. I'm working on a secret project where no one is allowed to magic telephone me'. Like, surely the only reason he didn't do that is because the Emperor assumed no one would ever break his edict in the first place. No edict, no staggeringly easy to exploit weakness, no broken webway, no need for any punishment, #MagnusDidNothingWrong
Considering that the construction of the Webway began long before the council of Nikaea took place, I think that such a prospect would be relatively unlikely. That being said, the Emperor should have had given his sons an emergency contact code or something like that regardless.
I always thought that Big E keeping the Webway Project under wraps was the dumbest thing he ever did. Why would he not let the Primarchs, if no one else, know what he was doing that was more important than the Great Crusade?
Even if he didnt want them to know the details I think a simple" Hey kid's Dad's got a major project thats gonna help out the great crusade ALOT so I need Horus to step up and run the military while I'm doing this" would have headed off so much of the impetus for the HH
Nicholas Fallbrook what if Fulgrims clone really does contain the original soul of Fulgrim and that, that Slaneshi Deamon was never banished from his body despite claims, that would explain everything.
What if Magnus has been allowed to continue practicing his magic. would he have even needed to make a deal in order to contact Terra ? What if Instead, he could do a little practice and calling Big E up without having to use the cosmic megaphone he borrowed from Tzeentch?
Nice update, but I have to disagree with your opinion that the chances of the Thousand Sons remaining loyal would have been 'incredibly low.' With Magnus having 'won' the council deliberations, much of the antagonism directed to him by other legions would have dissipated, and with no Burning of Prospero, there would have been little incentive for them to side with Horus, especially since Magnus KNEW Horus was being manipulated. I would like to know what the basis of your assertion that the Thousand Sons were so strongly inclined to turn traitor in spite of Nikaea going their way is.
The odds of the Thousand Sons remaining low would be due more in part to the Emperor being angered by Magnus's destruction of the Imperial Webway as opposed to just violating the edict, which would still more than likely result in the Emperor sending Russ to apprehend him if the Emperor did indeed ignore Magnus's warnings, which in turn would lead to Horus intercepting/altering the orders, leading to the Burning of Prospero regardless and ultimately forcing the Thousand Sons to seek sanctuary with the traitors.
@@40KTheories That would not have happened if Magnus had been allowed to practice sorcery. He would have been skilled enough to avoid it happening or been able to psychically talk with the emperor directly. Or by not being ostracized he could have easily contacted another primarch like Dorn or Ferrus
There was also at least one powerful demon operating to undermine the thousand sons legion, as seen in Prospero burns. Seen posing as an equerry of the thousand sons at the council of Nikaea, among other things.
@Sam Hobbs It's worth remember that the primary reason as to why Magnus sent the Astral Projection in the first place was due to Astropathic communications being too slow and too difficult at that particular time period due to an increase in warp storm activity. If the warp storms still occurred then whether Nikaea passed or not would be close to irrelevant in this regard, since Magnus would be desperate to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal, and since he didn't have the power to break through the barriers put up by the Emperor by himself (resulting in him making his inadvertent pact with Tzeentch) this would still result in Magnus screwing up in his attempts to do good.
@@40KTheories I think Sam Hobbs posted a valid concern about this. The reason why Magnus went DIRECTLY to the Emperor was the fact he was too afraid to contact anyone else. If he could reach Guilliman, Dorn or Ferrus... damn, maybe even Russ himself... but he couldn't, his only hope was to talk to big E and hope for forgivness he broke the edict.
Just picture if the Thousand Sons were still Loyal, and were present at the battle of Terra. Hundreds of drop pods and Thunder Hawks descend from the atmosphere and the traitors lead by Angron charging for the gates of the Imperial Palace, and all of a sudden dark clouds form above them and lightning strikes the charging armies and then they feel the ground start to heat up and suddenly raging fires erupt from the ground. And then debris from ships that were destroyed in their descent would be hurled into the front lines, as Magnus brings a damn building down on top of Angron, only to follow it up with engulfing him in psychic fire.
...or he just..? Y'know... Mind-Fucks Angron to death, much like The Emperor did Horus... *THAT* would've put the Traitor Legions SERIOUSLY on the back foot, if not scatter them, yeah?
Basically this is the reason why they (writters) had to put Magnus on Horus' side... Heretics would be way too fucked over just by him (and as someone else mentioned in the comments, Malcador). I am torn now, as I didn't realise it before... on the one hand, I understand the narrative decision, on the other hand I fucking hate it.
@@Sidragrosm actually. the traitor legions likely would have been a more effective fighting force *without* angron. angron from the beginning already incredibly unstable, and should have been aborted by big e. but by the time of the siege of terra he was essentially nothing more than a rabid dog attacking anything he could see, friend or foe. he caused destruction sure, but it lacked the finesse needed to win a battle or a war. abandoning your allies to go attack hab blocks and rip civilians limb from limb while still alive is brutal and all, but its not particularly effective as an actual combat strategy.
People way overhype magnus these days. He was good but if he stayed loyal his legion would be gone from the flesh change and him fighting deamon angron would be his end.
The lack of gloating Magnus soundbites in this video saddens me.. Also, would it be possible that a loyalist Thousand Sons legion would end up becoming the primogenitor to the equivalents of the Grey Knight & Exorcist chapters post-Heresy?
From the standpoint of the character of The Emperor, his intelligence, and him being the one allowing Psychers in the Legions in the first place, his passing of the Edict of Nikaea doesn't make sense. The original "First Council of Nicaea" settled an internal dispute between two teachings of early Christianity. In 40k, The Emperor simply got confused and conflicted about his own teachings...
The council happened because too many were calling for Magnus and the TS to be removed, not only for the ise of psykers bit their hole conduct. This was the emperor telling magnus that he had reached the line amd should stop before he goes over it.
@@teroslarone1171 The Emperor actually forbade the Legions to use psykers. That is not equivalent of saying "don't cross the line" to Magnus. He essentially said "I've changed my mind" and forbade Librarians in all the legions, and Magnus, to use their powers. This decision was no longer enforced after the Horus heresy, because the surviving Empire of Man could see that it was a bad decision.
Cause the emperor, dispite what fans of the imperium try to claim, is not omniscient. He dosen't know every single detail about the warp and how chaos is powered, else he would not have banned religion or created a crusade of repression that fed all the gods. The emperor knew he wanted to hide magic and the supernatural, can't let it get out thst the arbiter of science is a wizard that made a deal with demons. The emperor is a hypocrite, plain and simple. The man thought this would work and made a decision that was completely ignored by any person who knew the actual facts.
The legions that didn't dispand their librariuses: The Thousand Sons blatantly ignored the edict. The White Scars because Jaghatai was unable to show up to the meeting and didn't get the message until after the heresy started. The World Eaters because their librarius was already so small they didn't even bother disbanding it. And the Word Bearers, who were already secretly sacrificing people to Chaos.
@@MajinOthinus magnus: “muh rune priests get their power from fenris, power from fenris my shiny red ass, only power you get is the incredible feeling for fucking dogs.”
Wouldn’t the Thousand Sons and Magnus be less likely to be on Prospero at the time of the Hersey because they were only there because they were in self imposed exile. They would in my opinion be in 1 of a few possible places: 1) out campaigning in the Great Crusade probably some where far flung in the same way that the blood angels or Ultra Marines were sent away by Horus. 2) spread out as garrisons or amongst the other legions to facilitate the expansion of the librarious.3) and most interestingly imo in terra with the emperor. They are the for most psyker’s and scholars in the adeptus Astartes, and therefore best suited to assist with the web way project. Also the emperor even admits that magnus was intended to operate the golden thrown so he would probably be doing so if he hadn’t been censured at Nykeea. Even if he wasn’t atop the golden thrown he could very well have been utilized to bolster the project in some way either psychically or as just another great mind to work through its problems and issues.
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Wouldn't this mean that Malcador would have been able to be teleported onto the Vengeful Spirit? Granted that everyone was dispersed, but there would be a chance he could have reached the Emperor or even Sanguinius before the fatal moments.
Imperial Dovahkiin I have a vivid image of malcador not fucking around and just deleting Horus on sight, you ask me he could and would without hesitation
@@scottland8698 yes this. the only reason horus was able to wound the emperor was the emperor's sentimentality staying his hand. malcador would suffer no such weakness and his psychic powers would be more than sufficient to defeat horus, even when he was being juiced up by the chaos gods. this is of course assuming that malcador got to horus first, or at least before horus managed to inflict any injuries.
Something tells me that a fight between Malcador and Horus would result in a lot more embarrassment for Horus: Horus: "I AM THE ULTIMATE BEING, NONE CAN..." Malcador: "Hi Ultimate Being, I'm Malcador." Horus: "You... YOU DARE TO..." Malcador: "No I'm doing truth."
@@disgustingweeabootrash1542 Although Malcador was a badass and he froze Horus before - now he was empowered by Chaos so much so that I honestly think that only The Emperor could take him down but to be fair Malcador and The Emperor together would just mop the floor with Horus without breaking any sweat.
Very significant: Had Magnus remained loyal and taken his intended seat on the Golden Throne, Malcador wouldnt have to sacrifice himself, freeing up the Emperor's most trusted advisor and one of the most powerfull psykers in the lore. We know from Malcador's handling of Horus during the Crusade that he doesnt share the Emperor's sentimental qualms regarding the primarchs, meaning his presence on the Vengeful Spirit could possibly have saved the Emperor. Even if the Emperor would still "die", the 41st Millenium Empire would probably be wastly different with Malcador serving as Regent.
I'd love to see it, but it'd require some rewrites - Magnus's flashback to Webway Incident (ep. 13 IIRC) frames Nikaea as more of a minor inconvenience than a heavy blow. Then again, TTS team could frame those earlier scenes as "eh, it's Magnus's memories from 10 thousand years ago, he could be repressing or forgetting some things to make himself look like a Cool Tough Dude and distance himself from Daddy E" and do a second, more... detailed and emotional take at Nikaea, Webway incident and Burning of Prospero - for instance, when Leman Russ makes it to the Imperial Palace and Magnus is forced to truly face his personal demons.
@@sofija1996 To be fair, it was an inconvenience. It's not like they did anything but sit on their planet afterwards and ignore the Edict. Only thing that happened, was Magnus fucked up his delivery, because Big Daddy E didn't give him an emergency contact number, or bring him and his Legion to Terra to sit on them/ Bring them into the project.
#MagnusDidNothingWrong The Emperor's foolishness and the jealous hypocrisy of the other Primarchs ensured that the tragedy of Magnus would happen. With a man like the Emperor in charge, the Imperium was always doomed to fail, in one way or another.
Another factor is that with Magnus , Malcador , AND the Emperor in play there was a real chance that the three most powerful human psychers in exsistance might actually have been able to FIX the webway breach , or at least seal it off permanently , and if you doubt those three could do so , then how about those three backed by the entire thousand sons legion ?
The Emperor is a single parent that also has to rule over an entire Imperium and conduct R and D for the benefit of mankind all at the same time. No matter how powerful the Emperor was he was still human and wouldn't be able to evenly spread his attention in all of these responsibilities and in this one he fell short on some of his 18 of his sons.
@@CaptainRufus The Emperor is a fiction created by the Adminstratum to keep the people in line. Even if there was such a man the 10,000 years of religious veneration has destroyed any accuracy in the original records of the era. Treat all 40k cannon as if it is in universe propaganda of the current Imperium and even the inconsistencies (like the squats) start to make sense.
Lets see... abandon the crusade in it's crucial final stage, publicly shame your most loyal legion (Word Bearers), all but disband the legion who could argually best counter the chaos demons (Thousand Sons) by listening to the most brutal of his primarchs, beeing completely oblivious about the following rebellion because he's busy with his new pet project... need i continue? The more videos i watch and the more Horus Heresy books i read, the more i regard the Emperor as a complete douche nozzle 🤦🏼♂️
I've seen some people suggest that all Magnus had to do for the Council of Nikea to end in his favour was *to keep his mouth shut,* and that the whole thing was a test on the Emperor's part to see if Magnus could put the greater good above his own ego. Had he not stood in his own defense, and allowed others to speak in favour of the Librarius, he would have proven himself to the Emperor. The Council of Nikea *was* the Trial of Magnus the Red, but not in the way anyone present save the Emperor thought.
One problem with that, the Wolves saw the wulfen as a flaw a curse that while giving them power came with a price. The TS didn‘t see the connection between their psychic recruits and the flesh change.
15:00 Actually, if the Emperor listened and believed Magnus, even if he sent Russ to get Magnus, Russ wouldn’t have attacked to planet because the Emperor would have also told Russ that Horus and his buddies are traitors. Russ wouldn’t then have listened to Horus when he claimed the Emperor wanted Magnus and his Legion dead.
I think there is something worth considering in terms of a "what if" when it comes to Horus' forces attacking the Sol system. What if by the time the traitors reached the Imperial Palace the Dark Angels and Ultramarines were right behind them?
"Hello my sons, good you are all here for my little council. First I wanted to ban magic with some exeptions for so called librarians and astropaths and navigators. But at second glance I just decided to tell you the full truth about the nature of the warp and why religion works and one or two things about the gods to spare us possible misunderstandings and conflicts in the future."
It wasn’t a meteorite, it was a damaged chunk of Old One spaceship! Carrying bio-tech that introduced the Pariah gene! *insert History Channel Aliens Meme here*
Oh yes, the ‘Who can be a bigger idiot’ contest in 30k. Good to know certain human traditions managed to survive a robo uprising, daemonic invasions, alien barbarians and whatever else that happened between point A and now are still around and kicking as alive as ever.
The Council of Nikaea in simple terms: Anti-psyker Primarchs: Ugh, Magnus, there is an ugly blister on your right hand. Tie it behind your back so we don't have to see it. That idiotic and hypocritical Wolf Priest and his even worse Primarch: CUT OFF HIS HAND!!! Magnus: I NEED MY FUCKING HAND!!! Targutai Yesugei: Let's put a Band-Aid on the blister. Emperor: The Band-Aid sounds fine, but since I need to cater to the manchildren that my sons are, you need to tie that hand behind your back, Magnus.
Ok I've been thinking about this for a while, I think the forces of chaos were silently clouding the emperor's judgement, praying on his fear of the warp being unleashed, with the result being the edict of nikea coming to be. I don't see why he would be so opposed otherwise.after all making a deal with demons has it's flaws
Magnus may have been on Terra working on the webway project with Big E if there was no Edict of Nikaea. Thus freeing up Magnus, Big E, Malcador, SoS and the Custodes to fight far fewer Daemons on Terra.
If the counsel of Nikea had not resulted in the Edict of Nikea and psychers had been allowed to operate within the imperium, then I believe Magnus, Malcador and the Emperor would have teamed up to work on the webway project. Magnus would have sat on the throne and finalized the webway. Malcador and Emps would have intercepted the shenanigans going on with Erebus and Horus.
The decree was ultimately a trap set by chaos. By the time of the meeting the thousand sons legion was already beyond saving. Their familiars (lil ghost demons that served them) were a trap set for magnu and his legion. While they did help the thousand sons, this was only to lure the legion into a false sense of security and to get them to put trust/reliance upon the creatures. Now even if they had not gotten the decree passed, the entire thousand sons legion was already HEAVILY tainted by chaos, their powers/minions turning on them would likely cause an even more adverse reaction (utter destruction of all psychers) depending on the situation in which the demons spring their trap.
With the Phalanx bit, chances are Rogal would still keep most of the librarians aboard the Phalanx just to be safe. Also chances are the Chaplaincy would be combined with the Librarian rank.
When the phalanx is bordered by demon depending on when it happens could mangnus and his son have helped with the demon problem sorta saving the imperial fist and in turn making rogal dorn more trusting to qsychers
I agree with a number of others that the odds of remaining loyal are actually pretty good. Would they fall to Tzeentch later? Maybe, but that would be far easier to deal with if it occured. Having Magnus/Thousand Sons/Other psykers would certainly give an edge, and outweigh any negative on the Phalanx. Plus with a more useful Emperor, more Custodes, more Wolves etc. that would make a big difference. I also feel that the Khan would have been far quicker to aid the loyalists. Nikaea was a sting to him too, and the loyalty of the Scars takes time to settle. However, for me the most important benefit is to do with Istvaan. I cannot remember which of the (earlier) HH novels it was, but one highlights that the librarians felt unwell/troubled. As they could not use their abilities they kept quiet, and had they all had a normal librarius, they would have noticed that some great tragedy was imminent. A minor point perhaps, but as the Librarius on Isstvaan stopped using powers in battle, and ignored the personal problems they experienced, it may have saved more loyalists, and even Ferrus Manus. Perhaps a little far-fetched, but I can only see good from not having the edict.
My only issue with this, is that if is from the edict of Nikaea that the fall to chaos happens to Magnus. It was due to this that he could not freely study the warp. If the Emperor would have just brought Magnus to Terra and let him play with the throne and learn about the warp that way and then sent out the teaching to all psykers/librarians via the golden throne or something...look at when good old tzeentch was able to get his claws into Magnus. This would be a great theory and it would be something new I think.
There would still have been Lorgar wanting to bring Horus to that witch coven. At that point no one would have had reason to suspect the Word Bearers of treachery. I don't know, I see where where you're coming from though. By the same token would Emperor's Children librarian have noticed something weird about the Lair Blade?
You know, Magnus is is almost if not just as loving and caring for his people and his legion as Vulkan is. Honestly, the empire needs the thousands sons to return to the imperium to begin to rebuild, prosper, and fight back the hordes of chaos.
I imagine if Magnus stayed loyal and sat on the throne instead of Malcadore he would have held out much longer, and allowed both the Emperor to recover a smidge through some other means and possibly actually fix the damn throne a bit so that it wouldn't make Magnus wither into dust or a skeleton after a few hundred years.
The Edict never getting passed possibly means: 1. Thousand Sons don't betray the Imperium or at least not because of the reamined of the legion basically being forced to choose the side that was less likely to kill them. Magnus might still be brought to Terra if he damages the Webway, but instead he's probably brought with a Custodian escort to sit on the Golden Throne while the Emperor deals with the outbreak of rebellion and a daemonic incursion. 2. Horus' plans to eliminate the effective use of the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves for the Imperium will have to change now if the Emperor doesn't sent Russ to arrest Magnus. Both these Legions are a major threat and I doubt Magnus would betray the Emperor seeing how close they were. It was only the events of Nikaea, the invasion of Propero and the shattering of body and legion that led to his betrayal. Basically Horus had to orchestrate that everything Magnus had was taken away from him leaving him and the remainder of his sons open and exposed where only then would he consider joining the rebellion. 3. Chaplains are still within the legions that accept them. Might change minor events like the Alpha Legion infiltrating the Raven Guard to ruin Corvus' plans to rebuild the legion. I remember a part of the story the Alpha Legionnaire thinking once he realized there was an ex-Librarian near him that might be the end of his plans as the Librarian might detect him. This also might change their role within legions as personal guards might have a squad or two if Librarians and with the possibility of the hindrance of the warp storms being lessened by a now not-criminal Magnus might mean the loyalist have a more clear picture of what exactly they're dealing with. They won't just have the accounts of the Istvaan survivors, but now Legions like the Ultramarines can have their accounts of battles like Calth readily available for the others and how best to counter daemonic use by traitors like the Word Bearers. 4. As mentioned above, Chaplains might have a specialized unit within legions that might take different names, but if they're never made into an official chapter, then squads of Chaplains might operate within a Legion like how there other other specialized roles (Moritats, Vigilator, etc). 5. Grey Knights as a chapter might operate very differently. One way they could operate is now they're the daemon hunting version of Deathwatch and it's a Chaplain-exclusive honor to undertake.
I might point out a flaw in Emps logic, as while he may have stomped on Magnus aspirations due to his hubris and naivety, Magnus' naivety was largely in part due to Emps keeping knowledge of the "Great Enemy" and warp entities a secret from his sons.
Let's be realistic, the two most successful loyal legions (and largest) both rescinded the edict. The 9th rescinded the edict, the 6th didn't care about the edict, the 5th apparently used psykers a bit anyway. What were are really talking about here are the 18th and the 10th. Corax and Dorn already denounced psykers. Sure, if two of the smallest legions having a bit of a leg up makes a difference, okay. I doubt it though. If Dorn weren't a knob, THAT would have made a difference. For the massacre of Isstvan, that MIGHT have made a difference. To have a real, different effect, your theory depends on Dorn not being intractable. . . not likely. The 1st, 9th, and 13th were full steam ahead, that makes up the bulk of the numbers of the loyalists.
Probably the best aspect of 40k lore for me is looking back at the horus heresy. Looking at all the chess pieces the Emperor has and then watching in mounting horror as the forces of chaos checkmate each piece and solidify the future further. It's a grand tale of one being seeing the singular path to success for our species and of that plan being brutally ripped to shreds by their enemies.
Fuck him and his entire legion, ever since i´ve read the book Corax from the Horus Heresy Series, i really really hate them all, fucking furry viking LARPers.
Maybe since he, bizarrely, was a licensed psyker employing vast swathes of licensed psykers; they could have just had all psykers train under the Wolves and Malcador to get approved
@Anzu Wyliei That...actually would make an interesting side story. Just like "Aurelian" was for Lorgar and his pilgrimage to the eye of terror, Russ would become evermore bloodthirsty and unstable, and Ka'Bandha would find a new patron atfer failing to recruit the Blood Angels and our all beloved Hawkboy on Signus Prime. All in all, if we consider how lucky the Space Furries are in these regards, they should have long gotten corrupted by chaos.
Magnus: You know I would have welcome your critique had it been done in a productive and constructive mann- Russ: Neeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrdddddd And that's how the Nikaea went
It's said more than once that even without the incredibly idiotic Edict of Nikaea, it was unlikely that the Thousand Sons would stay loyal... but never was it explained _why_ this would be the case. Also, the Emperor should have given each of the Primarchs an "in case of emergency" way to contact him after his return to Terra. That said, though, even if Magnus had damaged the Imperial Webway gate on Terra in this scenario, it's possible that it could have been repaired with the assistance of Magnus and some of the more powerful Thousand Sons such as Azhek Ahriman and Iskandar Khayon.
Could you do a video on "did the emperor mean for all this to happen" cause someone as smart as the emperor supposedly was would know that not telling people about damon's and all that was a bad idea...
Super Psycker Emperor of Mankind: "Ya you supersticious brats are right, we should ban people with godlike magical powers, just not me, and I'm also not a god." Also Leaman Russ, half wolfman, primarch of the werewolf man legion : "The thousand suns are mutant freaks"
If the edict hadn't been passed, the Thousand Sons would remain 'Loyal' and not be destroyed by the Space Wolves. Maybe to be destroyed later, but working for the Imperium and aided by other forces. Really good speculation from here on in.
You know, Magnus made some good points, the Edict should never have passed. *If the Edict never passed, there would be no Chaplains* ... THE EDICT WAS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY AND HAD TO COME TO PASS
The strands of fate have a surprisingly great effect on the strands that follow. We are forced to think in the here and now, not affording much thought to what could have been. Patrick Stewart once said it best with: "One more ship will make no difference in the here and now. But twenty two years ago, *one ship* could have stopped this war before it started." ~ Star Trek: TNG, Yesterday's Enterprise
I wish I could believe the Emperor would withhold punishing Magnus for destroying a project he had no knowledge of. However, it's quite clear that the Emperor's tolerance of failure is non-existant and despite his pretentions to benevolence, he is more than willing to destroy those who are of no use to him (see thunder warriors, Monarchia, the two lost legions, etc). However, I suspect that Magnus' warnings would at least be taken seriously, and as such the Wolves would not have had contact with (and therefore interference from) Horus and the SoH contingent in their forces. I theorise that the Wolves would not firestorm the surface of Prospero and instead adhere to the original plan of escorting Magnus to Terra, although whether fighting would occur within Tizca comes down to the actions of the individual leaders of both legions and potential clashes of personality.
If Tzeentch wasn’t able to become the patron god of Magnus and the Thousand Sons, then I think his next choice would of been Konrad Kurze and the Night Lords. The God of Sorcery and Fate influencing a Primarch that can see the fate of everyone and everything.
Here is the part I don't understand; what makes you so sure that Magnus would have turned to chaos anyway? If the Edict of Nikaea had not passed, it would have meant the emperor supported and stood on the side of Magnus; he would be one of the few Primarchs to have evidence that the emperor sided with them. Add to this the knowledge the legion already has of the warp giving them some more ability to resist the temptations, and I believe it quite possible that the Thousand Sons would have stayed largely loyal to the Imperium.
Now this was really interesting. I would love to see more of a spin on this theory as I am still very new to the lore of 40k. I honestly just think the thousand sons are cool :3
No one will ever convince me that the emperor just "didnt know" that banning psykers would leave the legions handicapped against chaos and the warp, he knew full well that would happen. Over 30 books into the horus heresy and i am absolutely convinced the emperor knew a hell of a lot more about the coming heresy than he let anyone know
Magnus was key to Big E's Webway project. He needed him for it to succeed but did not take Magnus to Terra. The Emperor's mistake was treating Magnus like he was just another primarch when he was the lynchpin to his whole fucking plan.
I believe the Thousand sons and Magnus would be loyal without a doubt regardless of any punishment made towards the legion or it's primarch since none of their ranks harboured love for chaos
Thinking about how the Spacewolves were steeped in chaos and sorcery. Maybe Nikaea isn't to punish psychers but to prevent the wolves from ending up in the claws of chaos?
Well then #MagnusDidNothingWrong would have been justified..
Is that heresy I see?
@@Shadowzdota Brother, get the flamer... The HEAVY Flamer!!!
@@maddlarkin Spare your flamer, prepare for Exterminatus.
I'm converted, he really did do nothing wrong and was constantly accused by his own brothers of treachery and was then even attacked by the space wolf legion who tried to kill him after he desperately tried to warn the emperor of the real betrayal.
Everyone was a complete arsehole to him when he was the one person with actual common sense.
If I were in his position after all that i'd say "fuck it, kill them all" too.
@@HereticDuo Then you are a untrustworthy and traitorous bastard
>Magnus still damages the throne in his haste to warn the Emperor
>The Emperor heeds the warning, but still intends to reprimand Magnus
>He sends Russ with explicit orders to not heed any orders given by Horus
>Russ and the Wolves confront Magnus and the Sons
>There's perhaps a small skirmish, as many of the Sons think they did nothing wrong and shouldn't be reprimanded
>In the confusion, the Death Guard and Sons of Horus attack, as Horus realizes Magnus has revealed his treachery
>Magnus and Russ are forced to fight side by side against the traitors, but the two forces are overwhelmed and must retreat
>Magnus uses his powers to teleport his Sons and the Wolves to their fleets, but fails to save himself as Horus and Mortarion confront him
>Magnus duels his brothers, his psychic might being the only thing giving him an advantage against two Primarchs
>Seeing that the battle is lost, and his people have made it off the planet, Magnus opens a massive Warp rift above the planet, and Prospero falls into the Immaterium, dragging the traitor fleets in with it
Magnus is MIA, the traitors are temporarily set back, Prospero still burns, but the Imperium is bolstered by the very vengeful Thousand Sons, and we get a baddass three way Primarch fight.
Small skermish doesn‘t work since.
A) Tzeentch controls the flesh curse, aka the biggest barganing chip against the TS
B) The tutelaries are still around to manipulate the sons.
We can only imagine.
Considering that Malcador could kill Horus without much difficulty on his part, and that Magnus is more powerful than Malcador I don't think he would be so easily overwhelmed, specially if we consider the presence of Leman in this hypothetical scenario
@@pedrovilasgomes9144 Whyd magnus lose then
@@brendanmuller7301 There were swarms of sisters of silence present.
i can see the alternate history now
>thousand sons remain loyal due to the edict of nikaea not knee capping the legion of sorcerers
>alpha legion becomes the chapter to gain tzeentch's favor with alpharius becoming a demon prince of tzeentch
>alpha legion splits as omegon stays loyal to the imperium leading to omegon taking up the name alpharius as the chapter becomes split between loyalist and heretic sides
>magnus warns the emperor about horus possibly without screwing up the human webway project as badly due to being able to openly practice magic
>leman rus doesn't get sent to bring magnus in and magnus gets told about the golden throne and his role in operating it
>thousand sons use their magic to bolster the imperium's defenses while the full force of the space wolves is there to provide support in the coming battle
>not bound to the golden throne the emperor is able to lead the battle personally with the aid of malcador and thanks to magnus being on the throne malcador doesn't surrender his life and is able to use his psychic powers to aid the emperor in the coming battle
>the emperor defeats horus this time without taking mortal damage
>the emperor picks up the pieces and moves forward with what's left of the astartes legions continuing to spread the imperial truth now with the horus heresy thoroughly crushed
A dream i would wish to never wake up from if i could so choose.
A what if story I would love to be told i detail.
i agree with everything except that Big E still wouldn't have killed Horus, since he wanted to save him. Emps would have gotten nearly killed, and then mister multiverse balls... erm... Ollanius Pious wouldve sacrificed himself and Emps wouldve killed Horus. He wouldnt die, but Malcador wouldve prolly done some warp fuckery to save him/use his lifeforce to restore Emps to a liveable (maybe coma-like state (not as major as current, but maybe like pre-awakening Guilliman)) state. Sanguinius would be dead (fucking prophecy), but there would be more loyalist primarchs alive, and they would take their legions and go conquer the galaxy while BIG E recovers. (somethings may be wrong as i have only read 2 books (novels) and neither of them are pre-heresy)
I think Leman Russ would still try to attack Horus before he gets to Terra, this time with his legion at top strenght.
Wolves would still not be there, he would still almost die to Horus and most wolves wouldn't be on terra for the final battle.
Russ was a hypocrite due to his rune priests and the curse of the wulfen. He hid his legion's flaws and actions and blamed Magnus for his.
Absolutely. Agreed.
Well he is. But Magnus is a huge dick himself.
@Loc T correction Red MAGICAL dick
@Βασίλειος Κυρίκος he can cast once, he can cast twice...
Mortarion too given his own psyker abilities
Corvus:
"Yeah! Take that, dirty psykers!" (nervously looks back and forth)
It's okay. Nobody saw him say it.
@@bobbobinson6209 I don't think any would even listen to him anyways.
Thousand Sons: We are all psykers
Imperium: Boo! Weirdos! Freaks!
Grey Knights: We are all psykers
Imperium: Yay! The holiest of all holy!
Magnus the Red: Am I a joke to you?
Well, holiest of all holy until they need to bath is Sororitas blood to prevent corruption from Khornate daemons.
No, I'm never letting that go, and Matt Ward should never be allowed to live that down.
Blood Ravens : Mummy!, Daddy! Stop fighting!
The small difference being the Grey Knights never randomly turned into braying chaos spawn for no apparent reason
@@maddlarkin somewhere a Justicar named Alaric chuckles to himself...
@@ElectromagNick Matt Ward has committed too many sins.
Really the Primarchs acted like actual children over Psykers, refusing to fight alongside FRIENDLY FORCES over them having a different outlook and style of warfare. That'd be like the Marines refusing to fight alongside the Army in conflict, it doesn't make sense and is completely idiotic. The compromise suggested was by far the best option, train the Librarians intensively, and bolster your own forces immensely.
Also I disagree with the idea that the Thousand Sons staying loyal would be "slim". From what I've read/heard my understanding is that initially Magnus was going to accept the Emperors degree and die when the Space Wolves began razing Prospero, not wanting to commit any more "sins" for lack of a better term. But his immense psychic power had him hearing his people be slaughtered and could not take it anymore and began to fight back. - So if the Burning of Prospero never occurred, the primary reason for his turning to the traitors for sanctuary would not exist, which accounted for somewhere around 80-90% of the reason he turned. I doubt he would turn traitor over being looked down upon by others for using psychic abilities, and instead would strive to prove them all wrong about their assumptions.
not really. psykers are perhaps the single most dangerous thing in 40k. and i dont mean that they are the most powerful or the most deadly soldiers. i mean they are the most unstable and unpredictable. even a trained psyker can become possessed or corrupted by a deamon, or simply mutated by the energy of the warp. in an already unpredictable environment such as a battlefield, the last thing you need to worry about is that one or more of your soldiers may suddenly begin attacking friend and foe indiscriminately or turn into a writhing mass of tentacles that does the same.
the primarchs were generals. and there would be no reason for a general to view such an unstable weapon as desirable or even viable, when the imperium's military technology was already superior to virtually everything else they encountered in 30k.
commie416 not entirely true as pointed out in this video that psykers are especially potent against warp entities. There are also the grey knights which have no records of ever turning to chaos or becoming daemon possessed. So like any tool of war, proper precautions ensure proper safe use
Another issue is that some Primarchs hated psykers for personal reasons. Mortarion and the Death Guard despised psykers due to years of living under psychic warlords. Angron hated psykers because their powers caused him pain due to reacting with the Butcher's Nails. Perturabo was too close-minded to ever consider psykers, and Leman Russ was just a massive hypocrite so they do not count.
And then be rather smug on the Golden Throne, utilizing his powers to their zenith.
@@commie4164 Untrained psykers are the most dangerous thing in 40k. As has been proven countless times the sheer existence of the Warp can corrupt just about anything be they psykers or not. The entire Traitor Legions show the corrupting effect of the Warp on non psykers.
The fact the Eldar have not all been instantly killed given their heavy use of psyker abilities disproves this argument right away. Otherwise they should have been killed for thousands of years ago.
I cheered when Ahriman sent Wyrdmake's soul to be ripped apart in the warp. Nothing but a dirty two faced hypocrite and he deserved what he got.
Did Magnus screw up? Yes.
Did he deserve what happened to him? I don't think so.
couldn't agree more... I hated Wyrdmake almost as much as fucking Erebus. It was a really nice payback especially Wyrdmake realising what Space Wolves had done before his death.
@@Visor3410 not gonna lie, i would've liked wyrdmake to have taken that news back to his legion instead of just getting his soul shredded
@@gruffen4 I feel like that would have been more destructive/helpful long term
@@MDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMD Oh it would have, but if *anyone* would have talked to *anyone else* (yes, looking at you big E), the whole HH wouldn't have happened.
@@MajinOthinus My summary of the Horus Heresy:
"What we have here, is a failure, to communicate!"
I imagine that the Emperor would probably revise the Edict to allow the continued existence of the Librarius, but the Chaplaincy would probably still be implemented to appease Magnus's detractors by monitoring any and all psykers within the Legions for signs of corruption and disloyalty. It's entirely possible that the Chaplaincy may have even been expanded to include Blanks, with the Sisters of Silence being dispatched to supplement the Chaplaincy in the time it would take for such a force to be established. This would give the Emperor and Malcador eyes and ears in every Legion, limiting the Traitors' movements and suppressing the influence of Chaos, which could drastically affect how events would turn out for the Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, and even the Night Lords. This would also establish Blanks as a known and highly valued element in Imperial society, and they might have even been elevated to similar level of prestige as the Navigator Houses.
Except Navigators are much less likely to make you want to tear your own eyes out or straight up kill you by standing in the same elevator. Agree that a system like the Chaplains would still have been implemented and it would have greatly slowed the progress or perhaps prevented much of the Heresy. I don’t think the Sisters of Silence or Blanks would been added to the Chaplains as it would create wayyy to many problems for the typical legion to deal with. Notable exception being Rogal Dickhead who would probably request some and still kick out all psykers because it’s the most sickest thing to do with the least amount of effort just as he likes it.
And also probably the Space Wolves cause fuck those guys lol
#Magnusdidnothingwrong
There seems to be incompatibilities between Blank aspirants and the space marine implantation process. It might have to do with the progenoids, but it's part of why there aren't Blank marines in M41.
I mean he sent Custodians to keep an eye on the Word Bearers and you saw how that worked, I doubt sending some sisters would've made any difference other than having less around Himself
"I hereby forbid you from fulfilling the purpose I designed you from the ground up to do" - the Emperor.
As someone who more or less reads/listens to general lore my impression at the very least is Magnus probably would not have turned traitor since he was loyal to the Emperor and even hid the presence of the Imperial fleet from Prospero itself since he accepted the consequences of the Emperor's order of extermination for breaking the Edict of Nikea as well as destroying the web way project. It wasn't until he saw the ashes of his Legion and he was given an out that he flipped.
Also could have been minimized in hindsight if the Emperor was more open about his project in general and the existence of the Warp in the first place since the Emperor's secrecy on a lot of things certainly help plant the seeds of many of the traitor legions leaving including Horus himself.
The risk was too high, the Emperor didn't know of whatever warp bullshit could've happened to the primarchs after they were taken away
Even the possibility they were dead was likely, Malcador and Valdor certainly thought so
He only really "flipped" when several of his Shards outright refused to return to him. Can't really stay good if you lose everything that made you good.
That’s just it: the existence of Chaos itself, the actual fact it exists, is dangerous. Dangerous to regular old humans, dangerous to inquisitors, and yes, dangerous to primarchs. It is known that the Emperor told one Primarch about Chaos, one the Emperor knew wouldn’t fall to its temptations. We don’t actually know which Primarch was told, though I believe - like most of the lore community - it was the Lion. However, the were Primarchs that Big E knew absolutely should not be told of Chaos, because they’d fall to it, either through personality quirks or a burning curiosity that would lead them to the forbidden. Magnus the Red was one of the latter.
Imagine that you grew up in a society where the concept of racism did not exist. No one had even thought of it. Your leader, though, knows of racism. He wants to start a breeding program to make super humans, but he knows if the concept of racism is known, some people will inevitably fall into it and instead of wanting to breed better traits, they’ll want to breed out “negative” traits. The Emperor knew that chaos is strengthened by belief, just as he is now.
That’s why the Inquisition would rather raze an entire world than have the “secret” get out. Even if the imperium’s citizens know of Chaos but refuse to listen to the temptations, just their belief that chaos is a thing strengthens it.
The Only thing I am guilty of is the simple pursuit of knowledge.
"...and of doing everything wrong"
Rune Priests: We're not Psykers! We could just do everything a Psyker can do!
Good old: "when I do it, it's different"
Silly Space Wolfs
Oseph Steven Kings of hypocrisy.
"The space wolves are revealed to be shitmasters supreme because those aren't friendly spirits: those are fucking daemons" - The Emperor
To be fair, they intentionally woven so much ritualistic behavior and strength of belief into their psyker practices that, ironically, they made themselves far less corruptible
There are no wolves on fenris demons need to stop playing dress up as furry woodland creatures XD
One of the reasons Magnus found out about the treachery, as well as why he choose to warn the Emperor in a way that broke the Terran webway, was because he was desperate to prove that the edict was wrong. Without the Edict, the Sons would have been out campaigning, and Istvaan would have caught them off guard as well.
he definitely hear less chicken puns from The Skele-lord himself.
True, but he'd still get hit w/the ol' "Horn-tits" wise crack...(or worse yet, that Russ was still "better" than he was...) ~Cue "Doom-Bolt to the Face..!"~
Magnus the big red nerrrrrrrrd
Perhaps the Emperor could've pulled Magnus through the webway tear to sit on the gold porta-potty lighthouse while He amassed his forces to contain the daemons. Although the Thousand Sons would be inconvenienced by the loss of their primarch, Magnus could've started his penance while actually alive and relatively well instead of what happened to the Emperor post-heresy.
The emperor is dumb that way.
Tho events like the duel probably wouldn't change in the above scenario, the Emperor might've had the capability to resurrect using His perpetual properties. Also, Malcador wouldn't have had to sacrifice himself to maintain the Golden Throne. Also, with Magnus and the Thousand Sons as loyalists, they might've played a bigger part in defending Sol in realspace and the warp.
@@supercellodude or have the Wolves turn traitor with what their hatred of pyskers
@@Sigismund697 I really doubt that, Russ was the one Primarch that The Emperor never had a fear of falling to the temptations of the Warp. He always and always will be His most loyal son.
@@supercellodude not to mention that the Thousand Sons could have destroyed the Fleet sent to Prospero whilst they were still in the warp... If they were still loyal due to the Edict of Nikaea then it is my belief that they'd have turned that sheer amount of power upon the forces of Chaos...
Another possible outcome to magnus' warning for the Emperor while causing the damage to the webway is that instead of sending rus to bring magnus in chains he could simply recall magnus directly therefore avoiding the burning of prospero. This could occur as the Emperor seeing magnus' actions (while still damaging his project) as good natured and simply trying to help.
The hypocrisy of the Space Wolfs is too much.
That's there schtick, hypocrisy.
The loyal Sons of Russ never sullied their honour with the foul witchery of the warp.
By the way, have you met our Runepriest? He'll divine your future and fire lightning from his fingertips.
Wolves: this is fine.
I almost wanna slap Russ for that.
Yeah this one of my biggest problems with the space wolves, they BLATANTLY utilize psykers all the time yet deny they are psykers. There is literally not a single difference. They are malificarum
@@TheRedJadex that would make a hell of a headstone;
"Here lies one brave enough to slap Russ.
There's also some bits over there, and some there, but most of them is in this hole."
Corvus: all Psykers should be banned, they are a risk for the Imperium and Humanity at large!
Magnus: why are you invisible all of a sudden?
Corax: it's nothing! Nothing at all!
god damn closet psyckers
I read this in the tts voices
later tts
corvus:sooo uh....i know i sort of got a bit assholish with the nikea incident but uh...ik you understandably hate leman but we good?
magnus:ugh....yeah we are im not gonna hold it aganst you 10 milenia in the making. doesnt mean i excuse your part in it though you daemonic fuck.
corvus:...thats fair enough.
leman:ahem. so uh....magnus
magnus:FUUUUUUCK YOU LEMANNNNN!
leman:soo regarding... our issues you wanna get it all out or?
magnus:...dear gods yes but we're taking it somewhere else damm it. WITHOUT YOUR HELP TZEENCH!
tzeench:*quickly fucks off before true death by anathema*
Also Corvus: *becomes a mass of crows, shadows, and lightning in the Eye of Terror*
You're my favorite 40k channel in YT. Instead of watching TV, I browse your productions. Far more entertaining and informative. Warhammer 40k lore is AWESOME.
14:02 I feel like without the edict of Nikaea the emperor wouldn't have built the webway project in such a way that Magnus magic calling him would damage it. That or he would tell Magnus 'if you ever need to use sorcery to contact me in an emergency, contact Malcador instead and he'll relay the message. I'm working on a secret project where no one is allowed to magic telephone me'. Like, surely the only reason he didn't do that is because the Emperor assumed no one would ever break his edict in the first place. No edict, no staggeringly easy to exploit weakness, no broken webway, no need for any punishment, #MagnusDidNothingWrong
Considering that the construction of the Webway began long before the council of Nikaea took place, I think that such a prospect would be relatively unlikely. That being said, the Emperor should have had given his sons an emergency contact code or something like that regardless.
I always thought that Big E keeping the Webway Project under wraps was the dumbest thing he ever did. Why would he not let the Primarchs, if no one else, know what he was doing that was more important than the Great Crusade?
Magnus knew of the project he mentions it to Ahriman i think in the Thousand Sons novel
Robert Nelson Because he didn‘t want anyone to know, no one meeded to. They are adults they should be able to conduct the great crusade just fine.
Even if he didnt want them to know the details I think a simple" Hey kid's Dad's got a major project thats gonna help out the great crusade ALOT so I need Horus to step up and run the military while I'm doing this" would have headed off so much of the impetus for the HH
What if Magnus refused the deal with Tzeentch? What if the clone of Fulgrim escaped from the collection of Trazyn?
What if shadow sun comes back to kitten
@@lootboxplayer7555 "THAT'S NOT FUCKING CANNON-"
Ad Victoriam actually it has been confirmed to be canon
Nicholas Fallbrook what if Fulgrims clone really does contain the original soul of Fulgrim and that, that Slaneshi Deamon was never banished from his body despite claims, that would explain everything.
What if Magnus has been allowed to continue practicing his magic. would he have even needed to make a deal in order to contact Terra ? What if Instead, he could do a little practice and calling Big E up without having to use the cosmic megaphone he borrowed from Tzeentch?
Nice update, but I have to disagree with your opinion that the chances of the Thousand Sons remaining loyal would have been 'incredibly low.' With Magnus having 'won' the council deliberations, much of the antagonism directed to him by other legions would have dissipated, and with no Burning of Prospero, there would have been little incentive for them to side with Horus, especially since Magnus KNEW Horus was being manipulated.
I would like to know what the basis of your assertion that the Thousand Sons were so strongly inclined to turn traitor in spite of Nikaea going their way is.
The odds of the Thousand Sons remaining low would be due more in part to the Emperor being angered by Magnus's destruction of the Imperial Webway as opposed to just violating the edict, which would still more than likely result in the Emperor sending Russ to apprehend him if the Emperor did indeed ignore Magnus's warnings, which in turn would lead to Horus intercepting/altering the orders, leading to the Burning of Prospero regardless and ultimately forcing the Thousand Sons to seek sanctuary with the traitors.
@@40KTheories That would not have happened if Magnus had been allowed to practice sorcery. He would have been skilled enough to avoid it happening or been able to psychically talk with the emperor directly. Or by not being ostracized he could have easily contacted another primarch like Dorn or Ferrus
There was also at least one powerful demon operating to undermine the thousand sons legion, as seen in Prospero burns.
Seen posing as an equerry of the thousand sons at the council of Nikaea, among other things.
@Sam Hobbs It's worth remember that the primary reason as to why Magnus sent the Astral Projection in the first place was due to Astropathic communications being too slow and too difficult at that particular time period due to an increase in warp storm activity. If the warp storms still occurred then whether Nikaea passed or not would be close to irrelevant in this regard, since Magnus would be desperate to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal, and since he didn't have the power to break through the barriers put up by the Emperor by himself (resulting in him making his inadvertent pact with Tzeentch) this would still result in Magnus screwing up in his attempts to do good.
@@40KTheories I think Sam Hobbs posted a valid concern about this. The reason why Magnus went DIRECTLY to the Emperor was the fact he was too afraid to contact anyone else. If he could reach Guilliman, Dorn or Ferrus... damn, maybe even Russ himself... but he couldn't, his only hope was to talk to big E and hope for forgivness he broke the edict.
Just picture if the Thousand Sons were still Loyal, and were present at the battle of Terra.
Hundreds of drop pods and Thunder Hawks descend from the atmosphere and the traitors lead by Angron charging for the gates of the Imperial Palace, and all of a sudden dark clouds form above them and lightning strikes the charging armies and then they feel the ground start to heat up and suddenly raging fires erupt from the ground. And then debris from ships that were destroyed in their descent would be hurled into the front lines, as Magnus brings a damn building down on top of Angron, only to follow it up with engulfing him in psychic fire.
...or he just..? Y'know... Mind-Fucks Angron to death, much like The Emperor did Horus... *THAT* would've put the Traitor Legions SERIOUSLY on the back foot, if not scatter them, yeah?
@@Sidragrosm telekinetically rips the nails out
Basically this is the reason why they (writters) had to put Magnus on Horus' side... Heretics would be way too fucked over just by him (and as someone else mentioned in the comments, Malcador). I am torn now, as I didn't realise it before... on the one hand, I understand the narrative decision, on the other hand I fucking hate it.
@@Sidragrosm actually. the traitor legions likely would have been a more effective fighting force *without* angron. angron from the beginning already incredibly unstable, and should have been aborted by big e. but by the time of the siege of terra he was essentially nothing more than a rabid dog attacking anything he could see, friend or foe. he caused destruction sure, but it lacked the finesse needed to win a battle or a war. abandoning your allies to go attack hab blocks and rip civilians limb from limb while still alive is brutal and all, but its not particularly effective as an actual combat strategy.
People way overhype magnus these days. He was good but if he stayed loyal his legion would be gone from the flesh change and him fighting deamon angron would be his end.
The lack of gloating Magnus soundbites in this video saddens me..
Also, would it be possible that a loyalist Thousand Sons legion would end up becoming the primogenitor to the equivalents of the Grey Knight & Exorcist chapters post-Heresy?
Only if they want the Flesh Change to affect more chapters
If they figured out a true cure to the Flesh Change, then yes.
But most importantly, could the Blood Ravens have existed with a Loyalist Sons?
From the standpoint of the character of The Emperor, his intelligence, and him being the one allowing Psychers in the Legions in the first place, his passing of the Edict of Nikaea doesn't make sense.
The original "First Council of Nicaea" settled an internal dispute between two teachings of early Christianity. In 40k, The Emperor simply got confused and conflicted about his own teachings...
The council happened because too many were calling for Magnus and the TS to be removed, not only for the ise of psykers bit their hole conduct. This was the emperor telling magnus that he had reached the line amd should stop before he goes over it.
@@teroslarone1171 The Emperor actually forbade the Legions to use psykers. That is not equivalent of saying "don't cross the line" to Magnus. He essentially said "I've changed my mind" and forbade Librarians in all the legions, and Magnus, to use their powers.
This decision was no longer enforced after the Horus heresy, because the surviving Empire of Man could see that it was a bad decision.
Cause the emperor, dispite what fans of the imperium try to claim, is not omniscient. He dosen't know every single detail about the warp and how chaos is powered, else he would not have banned religion or created a crusade of repression that fed all the gods. The emperor knew he wanted to hide magic and the supernatural, can't let it get out thst the arbiter of science is a wizard that made a deal with demons. The emperor is a hypocrite, plain and simple. The man thought this would work and made a decision that was completely ignored by any person who knew the actual facts.
Without the Council, Magnus may have been invited to work on the Human Webway project, as he was like, the 2nd strongest psyker there was
The legions that didn't dispand their librariuses:
The Thousand Sons blatantly ignored the edict. The White Scars because Jaghatai was unable to show up to the meeting and didn't get the message until after the heresy started. The World Eaters because their librarius was already so small they didn't even bother disbanding it. And the Word Bearers, who were already secretly sacrificing people to Chaos.
And let's not forget the Space Wolfs because "muh Runepriests".
@@MajinOthinus magnus: “muh rune priests get their power from fenris, power from fenris my shiny red ass, only power you get is the incredible feeling for fucking dogs.”
Wouldn’t the Thousand Sons and Magnus be less likely to be on Prospero at the time of the Hersey because they were only there because they were in self imposed exile. They would in my opinion be in 1 of a few possible places: 1) out campaigning in the Great Crusade probably some where far flung in the same way that the blood angels or Ultra Marines were sent away by Horus. 2) spread out as garrisons or amongst the other legions to facilitate the expansion of the librarious.3) and most interestingly imo in terra with the emperor. They are the for most psyker’s and scholars in the adeptus Astartes, and therefore best suited to assist with the web way project. Also the emperor even admits that magnus was intended to operate the golden thrown so he would probably be doing so if he hadn’t been censured at Nykeea. Even if he wasn’t atop the golden thrown he could very well have been utilized to bolster the project in some way either psychically or as just another great mind to work through its problems and issues.
Wouldn't this mean that Malcador would have been able to be teleported onto the Vengeful Spirit? Granted that everyone was dispersed, but there would be a chance he could have reached the Emperor or even Sanguinius before the fatal moments.
Imperial Dovahkiin I have a vivid image of malcador not fucking around and just deleting Horus on sight, you ask me he could and would without hesitation
@@scottland8698 Oh yea, he would not have had the hesitation that the Emperor did
@@scottland8698 yes this. the only reason horus was able to wound the emperor was the emperor's sentimentality staying his hand. malcador would suffer no such weakness and his psychic powers would be more than sufficient to defeat horus, even when he was being juiced up by the chaos gods. this is of course assuming that malcador got to horus first, or at least before horus managed to inflict any injuries.
Something tells me that a fight between Malcador and Horus would result in a lot more embarrassment for Horus:
Horus: "I AM THE ULTIMATE BEING, NONE CAN..."
Malcador: "Hi Ultimate Being, I'm Malcador."
Horus: "You... YOU DARE TO..."
Malcador: "No I'm doing truth."
@@disgustingweeabootrash1542 Although Malcador was a badass and he froze Horus before - now he was empowered by Chaos so much so that I honestly think that only The Emperor could take him down but to be fair Malcador and The Emperor together would just mop the floor with Horus without breaking any sweat.
Very significant: Had Magnus remained loyal and taken his intended seat on the Golden Throne, Malcador wouldnt have to sacrifice himself, freeing up the Emperor's most trusted advisor and one of the most powerfull psykers in the lore. We know from Malcador's handling of Horus during the Crusade that he doesnt share the Emperor's sentimental qualms regarding the primarchs, meaning his presence on the Vengeful Spirit could possibly have saved the Emperor. Even if the Emperor would still "die", the 41st Millenium Empire would probably be wastly different with Malcador serving as Regent.
Imagine a TTS episode about the Trial of Magnus the Red.
YES
I'd love to see it, but it'd require some rewrites - Magnus's flashback to Webway Incident (ep. 13 IIRC) frames Nikaea as more of a minor inconvenience than a heavy blow.
Then again, TTS team could frame those earlier scenes as "eh, it's Magnus's memories from 10 thousand years ago, he could be repressing or forgetting some things to make himself look like a Cool Tough Dude and distance himself from Daddy E" and do a second, more... detailed and emotional take at Nikaea, Webway incident and Burning of Prospero - for instance, when Leman Russ makes it to the Imperial Palace and Magnus is forced to truly face his personal demons.
@@sofija1996 To be fair, it was an inconvenience. It's not like they did anything but sit on their planet afterwards and ignore the Edict. Only thing that happened, was Magnus fucked up his delivery, because Big Daddy E didn't give him an emergency contact number, or bring him and his Legion to Terra to sit on them/ Bring them into the project.
#MagnusDidNothingWrong
The Emperor's foolishness and the jealous hypocrisy of the other Primarchs ensured that the tragedy of Magnus would happen. With a man like the Emperor in charge, the Imperium was always doomed to fail, in one way or another.
Yes
Another factor is that with Magnus , Malcador , AND the Emperor in play there was a real chance that the three most powerful human psychers in exsistance might actually have been able to FIX the webway breach , or at least seal it off permanently , and if you doubt those three could do so , then how about those three backed by the entire thousand sons legion ?
the sons would be dead to flesh change if he remained loyal
BUT HE GETS THE GREY KNIGHTS INSTEAD
yeah the heresy could have been avoided if the emperor hadn't been such a wad
The Emperor was an authoritarian aspie douchebag. Many of his followers were even worse. But he created the seeds of his own downfall.
The Emperor is a single parent that also has to rule over an entire Imperium and conduct R and D for the benefit of mankind all at the same time. No matter how powerful the Emperor was he was still human and wouldn't be able to evenly spread his attention in all of these responsibilities and in this one he fell short on some of his 18 of his sons.
@@CaptainRufus The Emperor is a fiction created by the Adminstratum to keep the people in line. Even if there was such a man the 10,000 years of religious veneration has destroyed any accuracy in the original records of the era. Treat all 40k cannon as if it is in universe propaganda of the current Imperium and even the inconsistencies (like the squats) start to make sense.
Lets see... abandon the crusade in it's crucial final stage, publicly shame your most loyal legion (Word Bearers), all but disband the legion who could argually best counter the chaos demons (Thousand Sons) by listening to the most brutal of his primarchs, beeing completely oblivious about the following rebellion because he's busy with his new pet project... need i continue?
The more videos i watch and the more Horus Heresy books i read, the more i regard the Emperor as a complete douche nozzle 🤦🏼♂️
@@c0278x space wolves are the most loyal
World eaters
Night lords
Death guard
And even the blood Angel's are more brutal
ironically enough the emperor would break his own edict by the creation of the Grey Knights
I've seen some people suggest that all Magnus had to do for the Council of Nikea to end in his favour was *to keep his mouth shut,* and that the whole thing was a test on the Emperor's part to see if Magnus could put the greater good above his own ego. Had he not stood in his own defense, and allowed others to speak in favour of the Librarius, he would have proven himself to the Emperor.
The Council of Nikea *was* the Trial of Magnus the Red, but not in the way anyone present save the Emperor thought.
Leman Russ being judgemental towards a Legion with a genetic flaw that mutates it's memebers? HMMMM sounds kinda hypocritical to me XD
You are talking about hypocrisy incarnate "But my psykers are different", what did you expect.
One problem with that, the Wolves saw the wulfen as a flaw a curse that while giving them power came with a price. The TS didn‘t see the connection between their psychic recruits and the flesh change.
Obi Wan Kenobi: Then all politics in this kind of universe will forever be changed by this theory
Thank you for the vid :3
Could you make a video about: what if Ferrus had prevailed against Fulgrim in their duel ?
It would be awesome:)
Yes, this please
15:00 Actually, if the Emperor listened and believed Magnus, even if he sent Russ to get Magnus, Russ wouldn’t have attacked to planet because the Emperor would have also told Russ that Horus and his buddies are traitors. Russ wouldn’t then have listened to Horus when he claimed the Emperor wanted Magnus and his Legion dead.
I think there is something worth considering in terms of a "what if" when it comes to Horus' forces attacking the Sol system. What if by the time the traitors reached the Imperial Palace the Dark Angels and Ultramarines were right behind them?
"Hello my sons, good you are all here for my little council. First I wanted to ban magic with some exeptions for so called librarians and astropaths and navigators. But at second glance I just decided to tell you the full truth about the nature of the warp and why religion works and one or two things about the gods to spare us possible misunderstandings and conflicts in the future."
Is it possible that the end of the dinosaurs was caused by the War in Heaven?
probably. In older fluff, the pariah gene was introduced to Earth's biosphere some time during or after the War in Heaven.
Roughly the same time period, so it's possible.
It wasn’t a meteorite, it was a damaged chunk of Old One spaceship! Carrying bio-tech that introduced the Pariah gene!
*insert History Channel Aliens Meme here*
"Do as I say not as I do" eh Emps.
love seeing new videos pop up in my notifications
Hey Rem! Love your channel and your smooth scholarly voice! Hope all is well amidst this incursion of Nurgle!
Oh yes, the ‘Who can be a bigger idiot’ contest in 30k. Good to know certain human traditions managed to survive a robo uprising, daemonic invasions, alien barbarians and whatever else that happened between point A and now are still around and kicking as alive as ever.
Thank you for showing us a wonderful image of a primarch without armor! I feel like everyone keeps forgetting about their non-martial sides!
The Council of Nikaea in simple terms:
Anti-psyker Primarchs: Ugh, Magnus, there is an ugly blister on your right hand. Tie it behind your back so we don't have to see it.
That idiotic and hypocritical Wolf Priest and his even worse Primarch: CUT OFF HIS HAND!!!
Magnus: I NEED MY FUCKING HAND!!!
Targutai Yesugei: Let's put a Band-Aid on the blister.
Emperor: The Band-Aid sounds fine, but since I need to cater to the manchildren that my sons are, you need to tie that hand behind your back, Magnus.
It's the perfect metaphor for what happens when you do not trust your children and do not let them make their own mistakes...
Emps may still have sent Russ after Magnus but with a warning not to trust Horus, that may still have avoided the burning of Prospero
Ok I've been thinking about this for a while, I think the forces of chaos were silently clouding the emperor's judgement, praying on his fear of the warp being unleashed, with the result being the edict of nikea coming to be. I don't see why he would be so opposed otherwise.after all making a deal with demons has it's flaws
"Brute force their way through Dorne's defenses."
"I am the best at defensive structures!" -Dorne
Magnus may have been on Terra working on the webway project with Big E if there was no Edict of Nikaea. Thus freeing up Magnus, Big E, Malcador, SoS and the Custodes to fight far fewer Daemons on Terra.
If the counsel of Nikea had not resulted in the Edict of Nikea and psychers had been allowed to operate within the imperium, then I believe Magnus, Malcador and the Emperor would have teamed up to work on the webway project.
Magnus would have sat on the throne and finalized the webway.
Malcador and Emps would have intercepted the shenanigans going on with Erebus and Horus.
Leman Russ: Librarians are bad and deserved to be outlawed
Also Leman Russ: Also, my Rune Priests are totally not "Librarians or psychic"
"...bypass the spheres of defense..."
*it's a guy standing in front of a literal floating sphere*
The decree was ultimately a trap set by chaos.
By the time of the meeting the thousand sons legion was already beyond saving. Their familiars (lil ghost demons that served them) were a trap set for magnu and his legion. While they did help the thousand sons, this was only to lure the legion into a false sense of security and to get them to put trust/reliance upon the creatures.
Now even if they had not gotten the decree passed, the entire thousand sons legion was already HEAVILY tainted by chaos, their powers/minions turning on them would likely cause an even more adverse reaction (utter destruction of all psychers) depending on the situation in which the demons spring their trap.
With the Phalanx bit, chances are Rogal would still keep most of the librarians aboard the Phalanx just to be safe. Also chances are the Chaplaincy would be combined with the Librarian rank.
When the phalanx is bordered by demon depending on when it happens could mangnus and his son have helped with the demon problem sorta saving the imperial fist and in turn making rogal dorn more trusting to qsychers
Still my favorite channel on UA-cam
I agree with a number of others that the odds of remaining loyal are actually pretty good. Would they fall to Tzeentch later? Maybe, but that would be far easier to deal with if it occured. Having Magnus/Thousand Sons/Other psykers would certainly give an edge, and outweigh any negative on the Phalanx. Plus with a more useful Emperor, more Custodes, more Wolves etc. that would make a big difference.
I also feel that the Khan would have been far quicker to aid the loyalists. Nikaea was a sting to him too, and the loyalty of the Scars takes time to settle.
However, for me the most important benefit is to do with Istvaan. I cannot remember which of the (earlier) HH novels it was, but one highlights that the librarians felt unwell/troubled. As they could not use their abilities they kept quiet, and had they all had a normal librarius, they would have noticed that some great tragedy was imminent. A minor point perhaps, but as the Librarius on Isstvaan stopped using powers in battle, and ignored the personal problems they experienced, it may have saved more loyalists, and even Ferrus Manus.
Perhaps a little far-fetched, but I can only see good from not having the edict.
My only issue with this, is that if is from the edict of Nikaea that the fall to chaos happens to Magnus. It was due to this that he could not freely study the warp. If the Emperor would have just brought Magnus to Terra and let him play with the throne and learn about the warp that way and then sent out the teaching to all psykers/librarians via the golden throne or something...look at when good old tzeentch was able to get his claws into Magnus. This would be a great theory and it would be something new I think.
Meaby The sons of Horus would have owend a libraries of der own, healing Horus after he was wounded on the moon, so the heresy would not have happened
There would still have been Lorgar wanting to bring Horus to that witch coven. At that point no one would have had reason to suspect the Word Bearers of treachery. I don't know, I see where where you're coming from though.
By the same token would Emperor's Children librarian have noticed something weird about the Lair Blade?
I feel like a Magnus who stays loyal would eventually come to a similar conclusion as the Emperor ironically enough.
You know, Magnus is is almost if not just as loving and caring for his people and his legion as Vulkan is. Honestly, the empire needs the thousands sons to return to the imperium to begin to rebuild, prosper, and fight back the hordes of chaos.
I imagine if Magnus stayed loyal and sat on the throne instead of Malcadore he would have held out much longer, and allowed both the Emperor to recover a smidge through some other means and possibly actually fix the damn throne a bit so that it wouldn't make Magnus wither into dust or a skeleton after a few hundred years.
The Edict never getting passed possibly means:
1. Thousand Sons don't betray the Imperium or at least not because of the reamined of the legion basically being forced to choose the side that was less likely to kill them. Magnus might still be brought to Terra if he damages the Webway, but instead he's probably brought with a Custodian escort to sit on the Golden Throne while the Emperor deals with the outbreak of rebellion and a daemonic incursion.
2. Horus' plans to eliminate the effective use of the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves for the Imperium will have to change now if the Emperor doesn't sent Russ to arrest Magnus. Both these Legions are a major threat and I doubt Magnus would betray the Emperor seeing how close they were. It was only the events of Nikaea, the invasion of Propero and the shattering of body and legion that led to his betrayal. Basically Horus had to orchestrate that everything Magnus had was taken away from him leaving him and the remainder of his sons open and exposed where only then would he consider joining the rebellion.
3. Chaplains are still within the legions that accept them. Might change minor events like the Alpha Legion infiltrating the Raven Guard to ruin Corvus' plans to rebuild the legion. I remember a part of the story the Alpha Legionnaire thinking once he realized there was an ex-Librarian near him that might be the end of his plans as the Librarian might detect him. This also might change their role within legions as personal guards might have a squad or two if Librarians and with the possibility of the hindrance of the warp storms being lessened by a now not-criminal Magnus might mean the loyalist have a more clear picture of what exactly they're dealing with. They won't just have the accounts of the Istvaan survivors, but now Legions like the Ultramarines can have their accounts of battles like Calth readily available for the others and how best to counter daemonic use by traitors like the Word Bearers.
4. As mentioned above, Chaplains might have a specialized unit within legions that might take different names, but if they're never made into an official chapter, then squads of Chaplains might operate within a Legion like how there other other specialized roles (Moritats, Vigilator, etc).
5. Grey Knights as a chapter might operate very differently. One way they could operate is now they're the daemon hunting version of Deathwatch and it's a Chaplain-exclusive honor to undertake.
I might point out a flaw in Emps logic, as while he may have stomped on Magnus aspirations due to his hubris and naivety, Magnus' naivety was largely in part due to Emps keeping knowledge of the "Great Enemy" and warp entities a secret from his sons.
A very extremely awesome video as always 40k Theories.
Let's be realistic, the two most successful loyal legions (and largest) both rescinded the edict. The 9th rescinded the edict, the 6th didn't care about the edict, the 5th apparently used psykers a bit anyway. What were are really talking about here are the 18th and the 10th.
Corax and Dorn already denounced psykers.
Sure, if two of the smallest legions having a bit of a leg up makes a difference, okay.
I doubt it though.
If Dorn weren't a knob, THAT would have made a difference.
For the massacre of Isstvan, that MIGHT have made a difference.
To have a real, different effect, your theory depends on Dorn not being intractable. . . not likely.
The 1st, 9th, and 13th were full steam ahead, that makes up the bulk of the numbers of the loyalists.
Just finished A Thousand Sons, feeling sad about Magnus
I’d recommend reading about the actual council this is based on. In the end what was declared herresy was later repealed.
Probably the best aspect of 40k lore for me is looking back at the horus heresy. Looking at all the chess pieces the Emperor has and then watching in mounting horror as the forces of chaos checkmate each piece and solidify the future further.
It's a grand tale of one being seeing the singular path to success for our species and of that plan being brutally ripped to shreds by their enemies.
It's possible though, that prospero might not have been burned, as Magnus and the sons would have had no reason to self exile without the edict.
Then Leman Russ will be 200% frothing mad.
@
Armored mecha , Nah, Russ would never stoop that low. He is brash but he always had the end goal in mind, just look at how he dealt with Angron.
@@qiushuang239 or the lion for that matter. he gets mad, but eventually he gets over it.
Fuck him and his entire legion, ever since i´ve read the book Corax from the Horus Heresy Series, i really really hate them all, fucking furry viking LARPers.
Maybe since he, bizarrely, was a licensed psyker employing vast swathes of licensed psykers; they could have just had all psykers train under the Wolves and Malcador to get approved
@Anzu Wyliei That...actually would make an interesting side story.
Just like "Aurelian" was for Lorgar and his pilgrimage to the eye of terror, Russ would become evermore bloodthirsty and unstable,
and Ka'Bandha would find a new patron atfer failing to recruit the Blood Angels and our all beloved Hawkboy on Signus Prime.
All in all, if we consider how lucky the Space Furries are in these regards, they should have long gotten corrupted by chaos.
The Alpha Legion would had had a hard time stopping the Raptor project.
Magnus: You know I would have welcome your critique had it been done in a productive and constructive mann-
Russ: Neeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrdddddd
And that's how the Nikaea went
Great video it woud be of great change to the loyalist force and might end up Emperor still being alive as well as Malcador
love the work u do buddy😊
It's said more than once that even without the incredibly idiotic Edict of Nikaea, it was unlikely that the Thousand Sons would stay loyal... but never was it explained _why_ this would be the case. Also, the Emperor should have given each of the Primarchs an "in case of emergency" way to contact him after his return to Terra. That said, though, even if Magnus had damaged the Imperial Webway gate on Terra in this scenario, it's possible that it could have been repaired with the assistance of Magnus and some of the more powerful Thousand Sons such as Azhek Ahriman and Iskandar Khayon.
Could you do a video on "did the emperor mean for all this to happen" cause someone as smart as the emperor supposedly was would know that not telling people about damon's and all that was a bad idea...
Super Psycker Emperor of Mankind: "Ya you supersticious brats are right, we should ban people with godlike magical powers, just not me, and I'm also not a god."
Also
Leaman Russ, half wolfman, primarch of the werewolf man legion : "The thousand suns are mutant freaks"
See? Not everything was Lorgar's fault or Magnus's fault, it was the Emporer's fault too.
The thousand sons were one of the MOST loyal legions...
If the edict hadn't been passed, the Thousand Sons would remain 'Loyal' and not be destroyed by the Space Wolves. Maybe to be destroyed later, but working for the Imperium and aided by other forces.
Really good speculation from here on in.
@@johncaddick5075 probably not destroyed as valdor could tell russ to stand down
@@thecommentguy9380 Fair, as I said let's speculate.
IMHO Russ would just add his defeat at Nikaea to his hate of Magnus
Magnus is probably one of the most tragic stories in all 40K. He was just constantly getting the shittest hand and vilified for playing it.
I mean, a good chunk of it was his own inabiltiy to admit he fucked up or was goddamn reckless.
You know, Magnus made some good points, the Edict should never have passed.
*If the Edict never passed, there would be no Chaplains*
...
THE EDICT WAS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY AND HAD TO COME TO PASS
The strands of fate have a surprisingly great effect on the strands that follow. We are forced to think in the here and now, not affording much thought to what could have been. Patrick Stewart once said it best with:
"One more ship will make no difference in the here and now. But twenty two years ago, *one ship* could have stopped this war before it started." ~ Star Trek: TNG, Yesterday's Enterprise
I wish I could believe the Emperor would withhold punishing Magnus for destroying a project he had no knowledge of. However, it's quite clear that the Emperor's tolerance of failure is non-existant and despite his pretentions to benevolence, he is more than willing to destroy those who are of no use to him (see thunder warriors, Monarchia, the two lost legions, etc). However, I suspect that Magnus' warnings would at least be taken seriously, and as such the Wolves would not have had contact with (and therefore interference from) Horus and the SoH contingent in their forces. I theorise that the Wolves would not firestorm the surface of Prospero and instead adhere to the original plan of escorting Magnus to Terra, although whether fighting would occur within Tizca comes down to the actions of the individual leaders of both legions and potential clashes of personality.
If Tzeentch wasn’t able to become the patron god of Magnus and the Thousand Sons, then I think his next choice would of been Konrad Kurze and the Night Lords. The God of Sorcery and Fate influencing a Primarch that can see the fate of everyone and everything.
Here is the part I don't understand; what makes you so sure that Magnus would have turned to chaos anyway? If the Edict of Nikaea had not passed, it would have meant the emperor supported and stood on the side of Magnus; he would be one of the few Primarchs to have evidence that the emperor sided with them. Add to this the knowledge the legion already has of the warp giving them some more ability to resist the temptations, and I believe it quite possible that the Thousand Sons would have stayed largely loyal to the Imperium.
Now this was really interesting. I would love to see more of a spin on this theory as I am still very new to the lore of 40k. I honestly just think the thousand sons are cool :3
No one will ever convince me that the emperor just "didnt know" that banning psykers would leave the legions handicapped against chaos and the warp, he knew full well that would happen. Over 30 books into the horus heresy and i am absolutely convinced the emperor knew a hell of a lot more about the coming heresy than he let anyone know
Magnus was key to Big E's Webway project. He needed him for it to succeed but did not take Magnus to Terra. The Emperor's mistake was treating Magnus like he was just another primarch when he was the lynchpin to his whole fucking plan.
I put together a loyalist kill team of thousand sons from grey knights and tomb king bits. No Nikea, no Magus joining the traitors side.
I believe the Thousand sons and Magnus would be loyal without a doubt regardless of any punishment made towards the legion or it's primarch since none of their ranks harboured love for chaos
well at least now when we know how useful those powers are we have blood ravens
It’s 1:00 am were I am and I’m still gonna watch it
Its 2 am where i am
Shadow Strider Hey me too
10AM right now, but I have an online lecture :c
Thinking about how the Spacewolves were steeped in chaos and sorcery. Maybe Nikaea isn't to punish psychers but to prevent the wolves from ending up in the claws of chaos?