I wonder if we’re dealing with a man in black situation. Maybe the second and 11th legions we’re struck from the record so that they could perform some top-secret jobs.
That's my theory. Possibly a part of the Terrminus Decree. I do believe they were task special assignments because the running theories (geneseed flaw, treason, ect) don't add up. Maybe it was these two who The Emperor trusted most.
@@MWH12085 Or maybe it's possible that they did not fall to chaos; but rather that they commited an even greater sin in the eyes of the Emperor: *_anti-imperialism._* The two lost primarchs may have been the punks/hippies of the family. The Emperor was absolutely convinced that humanity could only thrive if it was "united" under one single galactic empire. Separatism and independantism was a threat to the very foundations of imperialism in the first place, before chaos even came into the picture.
"And the other is leading the Blood Ravens while doing backflips in Terminator Armor" - Huh, sounds like a childishly cartoon like attempt at a DOW game! But that can't be right, there is only DOW(and add-ons) and DOW2, can't wait until they make dawn of war 3, hopefully they will make it like Ultimate Apocalpse mod!!
Since you found one, I stand before you and implore you to find Daddy Dorn. It's not like we miss him or anything, but he said he was leaving to get some milk almost ten thousand years ago...I-It's not like we failed him or anything..Oh Emperor did we?...*Looks for Painglove*
Vulkan also backs up Fear to Tread. When asked why he didn't say anything about Konrad Curze. He says " None of us wants another sanction, another empty pillar in the great investiary, another brother's name excised from all record. It is shame enough to bear the grief for two. I have no wish to add to it, but what choice do I have?" This suggests that the two lost Primarchs were unstable and flawed, worse even then Curze himself. The Thousand Sons were kept around because the Emperor needed Magnus the Red for the Golden Thrown.
Yes, Curze and Angron both had circumstances that were edge cases, and capable of being excused (Curze being left alone for such a long time and Angron because he was enslaved and kept in check). Magnus, being the most powerful psyker of the lot, as you said was REQUIRED for the Emperor's further aims regardless of the horrible mutations or other Bad Things that possibly could befell them. The Thousand Sons being as unstable as they were was an unhappy thing to have as it meant one legion was basically worthless, but had to be kept around in a meaningful fashion because (as how the warp works) Magnus' happiness is proportionate to his effectiveness.
In addition Magnus and Sanguinius were both terrified that their mutations were going to lead to them being expunged like their brothers. Magnus sacrificed his first eye to stabilize the mutation in his Legion. He hid the fact that the mutation still existed and was trying to repair it before the Emperor discovered it and had his Legion expunged. Sanguinius hid the red thirst from the Emperor and everyone again for fear of being expunged like the two missing. With Curze it was not a mutation that was his problem yet a psychological one. He was just insane from his upbringing and his constant nightmares brought by visions of the heresy and his death. In any talk the primarchs have of the two unknown primarchs they all show regret and sadness. Few show understanding and all wish that something else had happened.
@@thomascoolidge2161 I wonder did the Ruinious Powers cursed Magnus and Sanguinius to make their geneseed to become unstable to be used as bargaining chips to make it easier for them to corrupt.
You do know the most powerful Psyker of them all was Leman Russ, for sheer raw power. It's how he was able to break Magnus's back when they burned prospero if I remember right? His raw power completely nullified Magnus' powers in that confrontation, on the rare occasion he would reluctantly unleash it, being afraid of the power he has.
Apparently, during Horus' spirit journey when he saw the primarchs in their tubes, Horus touched the eleventh tube. It's possible that that very touch, caused the taint of chaos upon this Primarch.
But Horus was not yet a servant of chaos at that time, that choise came at the end of the spirit journey. So could he really taint the primarch while not really being chaos tainted himself? I doubt it.
Well chaos was infecting horus at that time and that touch could very possibly have transfered that. I mean Xaphen just had to hit the field with a energysword to start everything that led to this point. So I doubt you need more than a listening interacting person to trigger such things.
gray ghost it should also be noted that the 11th Legion's primarch is shown in the array of primarch faces as having a large gem coming out of his forehead. That could have something to do with the touch of Horus
ok, new Theory. what if the 2nd and 11th are responsible for EACH OTHER'S destruction? if one went traitor, and the other died fighting him? and they were both erased from record to keep what turned the traitor secret?
This is kinda my theory - One Primarch/Legion turned on the other, for reasons unknown, and was duly censured, by the Emperor, using Russ and his Wolves. The remaining brethren of the other Legion, now Primarch-less. were subsumed into the ranks of the Ultramarines, but both stricken from Imperial records, to hide the deed. This, in turn, leads to a very interesting suggestion that the Ultramarines' gene seed is not, in fact, pure Guilliman, but a hybrid of his, and his lost brother's ...
@@graemecollin that could explain why sometimes I feel like Guillieman is living with some serious guilt, and not just because he didn't see through horous soon enough to stop him. What if one legion turned on the emperor before the heresy and the emperor sent the other to purge them and those dudes have since been lost in the warp or stranded on a space hulk. I've also go a theory that the missing legions were the first to encounter the tyranid and got obliterated but the emperor his it from mankind because he knew the threats that were coming from the warp and knew we weren't ready for the tyranid.
That would explain why one was censored, but why would his victim be obliterated? I prefer the idea that they got so caught up in a petty rivalry or internal politicking that they lost it, both went mad, and started their own private war. By the time the other legions could intervene, both Primarchs were dead, and had utterly failed in their mission.
I think I recall a theory that each Primarch was an expression of the Emperor's emotions or an aspect of war So, what if the Primarch's were the Emperor's fear and empathy? One Primarch could have become so traumatized by the constant war that he couldn't go on. He would have been the forgotten The other one might have "gone native" and developed empathy for a xenos race. He might even have fallen on a xenos world and raised by by non humans (like Mortarian except this Primarch for whatever reason sided with the xenos) He would have been purged To the Emperor, both would have been seen as even worse than Treason, weaknesses that undermined the very reason they were created. The flesh change might have been seen as useful in war. Unwillingness to fight or siding with non humans over the Empire would not. Just a personal hypothesis
It's interesting.. but the Emperor wanted to work with Xeno's. Atleast some of them.. Maybe if they were an Overtly Dominant species like the Orks?..... Now that would be.. Sickening. "Gork" and "Mork" aren't actually Orks.. just the Orks Idealised version of the Primarchs that fell on to one of there planets.. and became Right Orky! Otherwise i don't see it too much.
Based on that, one committed suicide- possibly because of gene seed flaw, and the other never ascended to power of some sort? I like the suicide angle, but as for the other, i'd say that he actually asked the emperor for help for his mutation and thusly was culled. WHAT IF HE WAS A PSYKER!? Emperor didn't like psykers at the time did he? Aw shit son.
My bet: the two legions were a taste of things to come in the Heresy: one legion turned to Chaos and the other fought it. At that time it was seen as unbelievable that one brother would have good reason to turned against the other. Thus the Purged is the traitorous legion and the Forgotten is the one which destroyed it without the Emperor's orders to do so.
It doesn't need to be the Chaos gods at play for them to go traitor. The Empire was on a genocidal purge of the galaxy, not just of xenos but of all human cultures that differed much at all from the Emperor's visions. You don't see any non-European cultural influences across all of the Imperial worlds in WarHammer 40K. So a traitor legion could well have turned on the Empire out of moral conviction and honor. That is most definitely something the Emperor would want purged from the records.
Note that they are usually mentioned as "traitors", not "heretics". It's possible that they did not fall to chaos like Horus' followers; but rather that they commited an even greater sin in the eyes of the Emperor: anti-imperialism. The two lost primarchs may have been the hippies of the family.
Yeah. I've always played with the theory that they landed on technologically advanced worlds that were a lot less shitty than most. One on a world were people practiced transhumanism and the other a star trek style xeno federation/alliance. They both join the emperor at first but when he orders there homes purged they side with their people (Though in my own stupid head canon they and their homesystrms are trapped behind a warp storm and cut off from the imperium before the space wolves can purge them
The False Emperor was OK with Eldar, and other races who didn't just be outright hostile, just as long as they didn't hinder the Imperium... Temporarily....
I had the following idea for a nice plotline surrounding on of the primarchs: Imagine one of the primarchs was send on a exploration mission beyond the boarders of the galaxy. A mission so secret that his name had to be purged from history. He travels with a gigantic fleet through the void. He even carries 4 "Hive-Ships" with him, basicly floating mega-cities. Inside those hive-ships the human workforce builds or repairs equipment from the massive amount of raw material he took with him or grows crops in specialised environments (and repopulates). Because his Legion is on his own, its bigger then even the old pre heresy Legions. But he also carries big amounts of normal human fighting forces with him in the hive-ships, aswell as a contingent of the Adeptus Mechanicus, positioned in one of the hive ships (a forge hive ship). This travel was difficult as every material lost was irreplaceable. So they were constantly under pressure of this clock ticking. But his journey was not a lucky one, as he met a Tyranid hive fleet. The battle was won and the fleet eradicated but the loses were high. So high indeed that the next encounter with the tyranids was a unwinable one. The battle was devastating. They lost an entire hive ship in that battle. Several battle barges and more smaller cruisers had to sacrifice themselfs to allow the rest of the fleet to flee. Beaten and angry the rest of the fleet returned to their galaxy. He even had a short encounter with the silent king. They noticed a ship of unknown kind flying past them in a distancet. The primarch decided not to shoot at it, as they already were fleeing from the tyranids and didnt need another enemy. Now after a few less then 10 000 years the primarch has returned. He lands the remaining Hive Ships on almost empty green planet, turning it into a hive world in the blink of an eye. Then he instantly made contact to Tera. He wanted to talk to his father after all those years. A return like that would have a massive impact on the empire. Even if their original numbers have dwindled, it still is a massive reinforcement for the empire. (several 10 000 of Marines and a primarch) And even better they brought ancient tech with them, that today has become a rarity and even some special technology, that has been created only for this journey.
My personal theory is a variant of that might have happened to the 2nd (Lost). All the Primarchs have varying degrees of psyhic power, but imagine an Primarch who is a blank, a Sister of Silence, a Pariah. A Primarch who wields the Null as powerfully as Magnus or Sanguinus wielded their psychic gifts. Big E would want him but Magnus nearly destroyed the Imperial Webway, imagine what the Second could do to the Webway or Astronomicon by accident. So he took his legion and circles the Imperium, the first line of defence against the Void and the unexplored zones, unable to return before the Imperium is ready because they depend in psychic powers to function.
I think it's a "mystery" because the spaces are deliberately left open for fans to make their own legions for the "missing". Notice how they're labeled as "forgotten" and "traitor", it's up to your interpretaion as to what and how that came to be. The "mystery" is, what you could potentiallly make for them. I get that this might be a "boring" reveal, but to me, leaving a slot open on either side for fans to fill in a manner of their own choosing is kind of the very heart of the creative process when painting miniatures
@@popburnsy3207 thats definitely their take. Its all so people can make custom chapters for play, I dont see GW ever revealing anything of importance regarding them because they would lose quite a bit of money.
My personal theory is the 11th (Purged) got corrupted by a Xenos race similar to who Lorgar got corrupted by a Chaos weapom the Laer Blade. The prime suspects being the Hrud and/or the Rangdan. The Rangdan Xenocides almost destroyed the Imperium, the idea of Astartes and a Primarch falling to such Xenos would explain *The clean survivors becoming renamed as Fists / Ultramarines sucessors to hide what happened. *The Wolves being sent out against the corrupted elements and Primarch, especially since the Canis Helix modifies the Wolves to the point of no other humans being able to take Russ's geneseed and logically giving them slightly more protection. *The anti-Xenos sentiments in the modern Imperium compared to the Emperors previous views.
There is actually real life history we can use to explain the loss of the two legions. The Roman IX. Although unconfirmed, it is widely accepted that Rome removed all records of the Roman Ninth Legion. Because if the idea spread that a Roman Legion can be beaten, then their enemies would multiply. It is likely that the 2nd and 11th legions were removed from records because the idea that a Xenos race could be so powerful/advanced that it can actually defeat a space marine legion, that could lead to the morale issues within the legions/solar auxillia and humanity in general. Not to mention, slow down the crusade as caution would start to take hold.
This is what ahppened to the 2nd in the fanfiction The Weaver Option. In the fanfic the second and it's primarch attacked the Ymga Monolith and got fucked by the Necrons and then finished the job by unleashing a Ctan that possed the primarch and thus the legion was struck from the reccords and any survivors left ended their own lives because with a Ctan controlling a primarch, even one that is imprisoned and shackeld by the Necrons could be a massive threat, the legion or elemets of it could have tunred (not that there was much left after the Necrons fucked them) but I think it was a really cool take on the 2nd, Weaver Option is a great fic and the author already hinted at the 11th so I'm exited for that down the line.
Personally I like to believe it was two of your theories. One could have had Horrible Mutations and instead of letting themselves be purified, decided to revolt against the Emperor in which Russ was ordered to put them down. The other having fought in that extremely Brutal Xenocide campaign you mention, and shamed the Emperor in one way or another, like..Trying to...B...Bef..Befri...Gah...Befriend..T-The..The...Xeno... But one Legion was mention to be the Forgotten while the other the Traitor, so it could also have been that one was horriblely mutated (Again), Russ and the Other legion was then sent to purge them and the two of them completely killed each other off. After all, the Iron Cage proved that even if one Legion has amazing Fortifications, as long as they both have their Primarchs they'll basically wipe each other out unless a third Legion intervenes.
I know this you walking Corpse, Yet for doing something so.. Horrible... I would understand the Emperor Purging every last bit of information on them, so it must have been said to put the Theory out there.
What if one of the lost primarchs pods had landed on a lost forge world? The primarch had become the head adeptus mechanicus? Thus making himself part of the forge world itself?
This is the same thing I am thinking. Separate tragedies-- one mutated thus causing other Primarchs to hide the mutations in their own legion, the other turning traitor but not because of Chaos influence-- simply because the Great Crusade was too unjust and brutal.
I like to imagine the two lost primarchs realized that the Emperor was actually a genocidal sociopath and decided to tell him to screw himself without having to fall to chaos to do the same. (Or at least one of them did.)
COMMIASSR NAT or perhaps they left the galaxy and the Emperor just made it look that way it is after all implied that the Tyranids for all their power are running away from something out there beyond our galaxy
That's the Idea hat holds the most merit to me. That the lost and the purged where brought up on independent and proud worlds that wouldn't bend to the Tyrannical rule of the Emperor.
COMMIASSR NAT seems the most likely of things to happen, it's also could be possible that the Emperor founds the traits of he primarchs to be undesirable and purged them for this.
The Byrd I've always been a fan of that theory. One of the lost primarchs simply disappeared into the warp at some point, with a chunk of his/her legion. That would make them "the lost" The other one, however, pulled some shit.
My running theory on at least what one of the legions practiced as their preferred method of war was that one of the legions contained the Destroyers. In the book Robute Guilliman the Destroyers were specialist squads of space marines that specialized in nuclear and biological warfare. Guilliman was known to have said that there were other Destroyer marines in other legions such as the Ravenguard and the Emperors Children. Another trademark distinction of the Destroyers is that other than their legions heraldry and a stripe on their helmet they wore all black armor. This could play into the mutation theory due to the constant use of radioactive material and biological weapons causing them to mutate and the only marines not mutated are the ones who at the time were either aspirants scouts or brand new battle brothers.
+ Carson Casmirri -- I'm fond of the notion that the Primarchs were _not_ created to be Generals in the Great Crusade but instead were bred to serve in major positions in the post-crusade Imperium. Viewed this way, the worlds the Primarchs landed on, and the families that took them in really did mould their personalities but to become the exact _opposite_ of their intended function. With a few rare exceptions like Guilliman (head of the Administratum) A few hilarious possibilities include: Leman Russ as Grand Marshal of the Space Marine Military Police Rogal Dorn as Grand Admiral of the Imperial Fleet Lorgar as High Philosopher of the Imperial Truth Konrad Kurze as Grand Provost Marshall of the Adeptus Arbites Perturabo as Minister of Education Sanguinius as ambassador to the (unpurged) Xenos races Angron as psychiatrist and grief councilor to the other Primarchs Alpharius was one dude with two bodies able to communicate instantly across any distance. The possibilities are endless. With that in mind, several of the Primarchs fought with the Emperor when they were discovered. Perhaps one fought the Emperor _to the death_ and the Emperor purged his legion "just to be safe." Meanwhile there's a neat incident about a "False Primarch" in M33. Perhaps the "forgotten" Primarch came out of retirement for some reason and got destroyed by the rest of the Imperium. Lastly, Edicts of Obliteration have never sat well with me. Since Space Marines have photographic memory and can (literally) eat people's thoughts, you'd think there's be some sort of Primarch who gave new meaning to the term "living memory." Perturabo comes close since he was apparently enough of a compulsive tinkerer to give Tech Priests the willies. But I think "Archivist" and "Teacher" are two completely different jobs.
My premise runs on the following: I am interested in the Destroyer squads, so I might incoop them into my legion as heavily used. Legion XI is The Desert Lions. Primarch Nemeas, Lion of the Desert (could be a form of Rad Wastes). He survived as long as he did because of being a primarch, but ultimately died anyway of his saturation of the desert in which he was found, but not before starting and building his legion properly. My thread: www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?167923-Desert-Lions-SM/page5
+ Xenos Tyrant -- What? According to the lore the Butcher's nails bleach the mind of compassion and cause Skinner-esque conditioning to cross-wire the brain to associate aggression and violence with physical pleasure. Just like in Crichton's book _The Terminal Man._ If the theory that the Chaos Gods sent each Primarch to the planet where they'd receive the worst possible upbringing holds, then Angron would have to have been destined to be the most loyal, empathetic and compassionate Primarch before he was abducted by Chaos. The most ironic thing possible would be to pull the old "therapist becomes the patient" gag.
I understood what you were saying but I just found the image of Heresy Angron calmly discussing a patients problems and then flipping out over some small thing hilarious. It's definitely interesting although I would say that Magnus went to the best place for him other than Terra as Prospero taught him how to control his powers which would have been difficult elsewhere.
Interesting thing about the idea of Russ putting down the Unknown Primarchs. In Mark of Calth one of the Ultramarines was censored by Guilliman, for the treason of even IMAGINING the idea of fighting against Space Marines, and coming up with "Theoreticals" for it. This suggests to me, that it's unlikely that Russ or any other Space Marine actually sanctioned the Lost Primarchs. If Space Marine on Space Marine action actually happened, I wouldn't think that coming up with "Theoreticals" against Space Marines would be so shocking and unheard of. After all, if Russ fell, who would put him down? The Ultramarines? They had to sanction the Word Bearers after all, so not too far outside of belief for me. I'm thinking that one of them probably succumbed to rampant mutation like the Blood Angels almost did, and the Thousand Sons were on the way to once the NERD! ramped up the Flesh Change. This could be the REDACTED lost battle damaged legion as well. Perhaps those xenos creatures having some sort of weapon that twisted and mutated the legion itself to the point of madness and disgrace beyond redemption. Considering things like the Hrud's ability to entropy field things... I don't see it as all that unusual. I'm thinking the other, being probably was an assassination. It would explain why the Assassinorum ever thought it could kill Konrad Curze or Horus (or the Emperor) as in during Nemesis: War in the Shadows. We know that the Primarchs aren't beyond mere mortals kicking their asses after all. The Lion was nearly taken clean out in a straight up swordfight honor duel against Luther after all. And if he was the first Primarch ever assassinated he probably didn't expect it nor had any primarch since even thought it was possible that they could be bested by a mere mortal or anything of the like. Heck in Unremembered Empire Guilliman himself almost gets chumped out by 10 no name jobber Space Marines. And this was with him at least suspecting the strike moments before it happened.
Well Russ could consider it, that was why the other brothers did not like him one bit. It may have been they got the legionaries while the Assassins got the primarchs proper. He was willing to drop Angron and did not even blink when Horus changed the orders from capture to kill with Magnus.
This is the second time I've heard the two legions referred to as "the Forgotten and the Purged". The entire theory as to what that could mean should be left up to grammar and the use or non-use of the Oxford comma. If they're referred to as -- The forgotten and the purged (without a comma after Forgotten), it's most likely both were purged and forgotten about. If they're referred to as --- The forgotten*,* and the purged, then it stands to reason one of the legions was purged from the Imperium by another Legion, and the other was simply forgotten about for some reason.
My 11th legion were the Myrmidons...trapped in a warp storm that seemed endless and timeless. After they had spent unmeasured time in that Limbo...they were found by Ma'lal...a.k.a. Malice...who gave them a choice...devote themselves to his service or remain in their own personal hell for eternity. The agreed...and became the Renegade Legion, The Taken, as they were taken by Malice to be his warriors.
IMO its: 2nd legion lost most of their numbers and then primarch during the multiple re-unifications of humanity (forgotten) 11th succumbed to severe (not human anymore) mutations, based on the Horus vision of "untapped potential" in the XI chamber (purged)
Catnium this really does make the most sense, to me. From a player standpoint, having it be undefined is the point. No mystery at all, the answer is all in your brush(brain?) just waiting to be placed on the table
I have been playing with the idea of one of the legions escaping into the human webway. They managed to contain it using their inherent abilities as blanks to salvage and repair a piece of it and have been floating in the webway as a shadow observing everything going on on the outside occasionally sending out warbands to carry out their primarch's. The Emperor and by extension the Imperium sees them as renegade, they have always and still do fight for the people, though they are now forced to work outside the law so to speak, building an elaborate and complex spy network that includes other renegade chapters, rogue traders, nobles and governors, and even some xenos. But now that the eye of terror has basically divided the galaxy in half following the fall of Cadia (tearful salute) they are now faced with a dilemma. Do they stay out of it and hide in their webway home only to eventually be destroyed by any faction that eventually stumbles upon them anyway? Or do they come out to try to slow the spread of the eye of terror and potentially expose them to those who may still wish them dead? Either way, many carefully forged alliances could be shattered and their elaborately created spy network potentially destroyed.
I feel that the two Lost Primarchs are going to be used by GW as something they can introduce at later times to add freshness to the franchise. The reintroduction of a lost primarch in a great time of need for human kind would be a pretty good story.
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT NUMBER 11 COULD HAVE FEEL TO MALAL/MALICE! just really happy you mentioned it. (now in Character) ELEVENTH WAS BAD THE SECOND ONE IS DEAD BECAUSE OF HORUS!!
I would agree here in that the 11th Legion were taken by Mallus/Malal...I had them...As the Star Guard...led by Toryn Rohja as Primarch...a Space borne legion who vanished into the warp during the mid 30th Millenia...returning in the 40th as The Taken...Mallus/Malal Chaos Marines who served him in his great crusade to kill the 4 great Chaos Powers. They were the true Death Marines...even having their armor sporting Adamantium Skulls as the faces of their helms...not just painted on. Their colors were Black, Silver and White. The rode arround in a Great Crusade Era Grand War Barge...THE IRON SUN...which also related to their emblem a Silver-Gray Sun with a Black Shield imposed upon it. Was a fun time...working all the background up for this idea. :) Just wish most of it had not gone away when my HD died.
While not being too deep on the Lore when I played WH40k, I always imagined the two primarchs being a way for players to insert their own chapters into the game world.
Given that this is a tabletop game, that's there most likely reason. But it is funny to watch people trip over themselves coming up with all kinds of overly complex excuses lololol
I distinctly recall Russ saying flat out that he has the "most" experience killing primarchs(during the Horus Heresy series) - and this was after he learns that Fullgrim killed Ferrus Manus .
It would seem at least to me, that one of the Primarch's and their legion turning against the Emperor in outrage against the mass genocide of Xeno's species, is not too far fetched. Imagine a soft-hearted Primarch that deeply respected all forms of life, rejecting an order to purge a world of mostly peacefull Xeno's.
Maybe 'The Forgotten' left the Emperor's Crusade thinking it would be accepted, but then was utterly destroyed because the danger of the idea of lack of belief in the Imperium's ideals. 'The Purged' could be flawed or mutated marines that Sanginius was alluding to.
If covered by anyone before I apologise. The fact 21 chairs were left 1 for the Emperor and 20 others one for each Primarch and theres only one seat for the Alpha Legion suggests it wasnt common knowledge that Alparius and Omegon were twin Primarchs. So when Isfrael tells Zahariel The Lion has 19 brothers he can not be counting the twins in that numbers as a) the Alpha Legion were all about secrecy and b) the Dark Angels were all about secrecy. Isfrael wouldnt be passing on sensitive information to a relativly junior member of the Dark Angel Legion surely? Alpharius also went by the name " the Threefold Serpent" possibly suggesting a link with a third Primarch. Also at some point several of the Primarchs have been cloned in one shape or form yet the two missing Primarchs have not- that we know of and within the Galaxy no suitable figure has come forward to suggest they could be in the frame which suggests a very very thorough removal, almost like what The Emperor inflicted on Horus at the climax of the Heresy and even then Horus was subsequently cloned later down the line anyway. If the Emperor had erased them for treason etc why would Guilliman wish to honour them? The Imperium likes to honour fallen heros so seems unlikly that two Primarchs would be striken yet the Dark Angels whom were also present would be left alone given there part in the Rangdon Xenocide. Didnt Horus strike the second gestation pod in the Vault beneath Terra during his Heresy inspiring vision with Sejanus(Erebus) causing hairline fracture on the pod. Would this not compromise the pod during The Scattering possibly opening the way for the occupant to be corrupted (Lost)? Also The Legion of the Damned (lost) with a nod to Lithiumjuice Artwork below. It turns out I am a geek.
What if the two lost Primarchs landed on Xenos planets? Perhaps they where raised by Eldar or somthing like that? Maybe they refused to join the emperor because of his xenophobic ways.
Great vid have caught a few but never actually finished them until now. Hopefully GW will add those 2 primarchs and their legions to lore. Would love to know...Subbed keep up the good work 👍
My theory had always been one Primarch had been kept on ice in case of a situation so dire the emperor unleashed them as a final solution. The other embraced the nature of death and became the controlling force behind the legion of the damned.
Right so I have just been listening to blood games by Dan Abnett. There is a mention that Constantine Valdor was a giant of man bigger than Amon and resembled one of the giant statutes in the investory. Please correct me if I am wrong but aren't those statues of the Primarchs. Could it be that Constantine is one of the missing Primarchs hence the redaction of the records? Interesting even though it may go against some of the custodes cannon, however misdirection would be a common tactic to hide a secret like that. Food for thought
I made a fan made story for one of the Lost Primarchs was that the 2nd & 7th Primarchs were religious/spiritualists of ancient Terran religions. They recognized the religious & mythological nature of man that the Emperor despised in ordered to starve or defeat the Chaos gods. One was defeated by Leman Russ for reminding the Emperor too much of the Last Church during the time of the Unification Wars and the other sacrificed himself fighting Xenos in hopes the Emperor would be touched by his sacrifice for what he believed in.
I always liked the idea that at least one of the lost primarchs was a psychic blank of immense power, and more importantly control. And I also like the idea that he was created to essentially judge the emperor, to act as a spotter if you will. To be beyond the emperors meddling and in a position to directly stop him if he ever went off the deep end, but because of the scattering he couldn't be raised in the way the emperor needed him to be to be a fair judge and was purged. The other is, uh, a girl because why not
Part of me always believed that Sigmar was one of them, still do frankly. But if we remove that possibility then I would say that SOMETHING big happened, not just some mutation or some betrayal but something big...and while I always believed, and to be honest still do, that Sigmar is probably that 11th one, the other one...well, am I the only one who thinks the Tau are a little too much like a SM legion? Maybe one landed on a planet with aliens, was raised by them and ruled over them, and after he died or got offed by the Emperor the remaining aliens kept hold of his teachings and eventually decided to carry out his beliefs: "Let's all go crusade against disorder (Chaos) and bring about unity...also let's find that Great Good that the boss was always going on and on about, some dude he called Dad half the time!" Yeah it sounds crazy, but it's kinda plausible.
To be honest, I'd write that prequel duology for them for cheap if they ever asked, "The Lost Sons--Book One: The Forgotten, Book Two: The Purged". The first one is basically just a prequel to every Warhammer Fantasy story and the second is basically leading into the birth of the Tau Empire from an outsider's point of view.
The Tau aren't really a possibility as the beginning and end of their societal progress was noted within relatively recent imperial records. The fact that the primarchs were found, were part of the Imperial retinue, they did have their own chapters that at one point had names and their geneseed exists rules out any possibility of a person raised by Xenos or any other solution that would have precluded them meeting the Emperor again or a legion being founded from them. Sigmar is thus not a likely candidate at all.
I mean it does kind of make sense since they only said they failed but they didn't say they at what. So it could have ment one failed in combat and the other failed just because he refused his father so it was decided that he was to be left alone and forgotten
A cool possibility could be the Emperor found navigational data from The Old Ones, or the Necrons regarding the deep core. He sent one or both of them there to create a small human empire that no one else knows about to ensure the species survival should the Imperium be wiped out. Also, i love how ya’ll source the info during the video.
Back a few decades ago I read an article/interview where one of the creators said they left two slots open for players to create their own chapters. That being so, they will never be named by GW but there will be thousands of claimants made by us; so go create your own chapter... mine always turn out to be Ultramarine successors anyhow.
The Purged one: faced mutations during the great crusade thanks to a Rangdan weapon that exposed genetic imperfections and those affected, primarch included, had to be 'sanitized' by Russ. The Forgotten one: after the xenocide he became disillusioned towards the Emperor and the great crusade and took some of what was left of his legion plus a siezable amount of people and escaped imperial control, and maybe the galaxy itself, in hope to found a colony based on peace. That or he began being worshipped as a god by the people and he came to believe that he was one. What do you think?
I like to think that they both and their closest and best astartes are still alive, having survived their quote-on-quote “fates” but are being held in the collection of none other than Trazyn the infinite, much like Bile’s clone of Fulgrim.
Ghaztoir It is his number. I'd like to think that the second legion receeded into a mindset that started a second Dark Age of Technology. The Men of Iron were no fucking joke.
It's obvious why the two legions were gotten rid of along with their Primarchs. The 2nd legion was the one everyone played in play testing for 2nd edition. They dominated the in house tournament meta as well and all the Black Library authors fought over who could write the most Mary Sue book about the legion. Play testers wanted them nerfed but when they started to overshadow the Ultramarines they just had to be liquidated. The 11th was simply guilty of having a legion symbol that infringed upon someone's IP, specifically GW's own IP. It was too similar to the Ultramarines symbol. So in an ironic twist GW sued themselves to force themselves to permanently expunge the legion and it's symbol. This is clearly the only logical theory going.
Back in the days i wrote down my own story about the lost primarchs, something very simple, with a really good primarch and a really bad one. As of now, i loved Remleiz's story about Sigmar as a primarch, so i'm keeping that as a piece of personal lore, although i want to modify AoS lore to make it fit into the homebrew lore. Still trying to think some interesting 11th primarch to put with Sigmar. Any ideas?
40K Theories, Remliez I have a theory for you to look into. The Emperor referred to Horus as his Dreadful Sagittary, and the implications of the symbols on the Gene Lab doors imply the Primarchs match up with known star signs and or constellations and even Tarot cards (of course The Emperors Tarot also adds to this theory, since well it had to be based on the real Tarot cards at some point) I found a thread discussing this here www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?135694-The-primarchs-zodiac-rings In the thread someone posted and this was mentioned: Shortly after Horus Rising was published, a forum user on the Black Library forums, Anguipes, devised a system based on a combination of the Tarot, astrology and a small amount of the Sephirot to read the Primarchs' personalities. By his reckoning, these are the personalities which each Primarch would have had without any outside interference. One of those links: menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/IV.html Sure it was made by a fan but if he did his research well we may have something to explain the symbolism the Emperor attached to the Primarchs and the door of the gene lab.
Thanks and take your time, it was just something I noticed recently re-reading the HH novels I own and got curious and you are the master inquisitor of theories so thought I would suggest it.
On your idea of Custom Legions... when my only actual experience with the Space Marine video game, and I learned of the Lost Primarchs, I went and made my own Legion. Never used it, but it was a fun little thing to make. Only experience with 40k remains Space Marine, and the Lexicanum wiki. And videos like this.
Might be the Forgotten turned away from war or turned to a chaos god of Order like Alluminas. That he would not fight for the Emperor would be seen as a failure.
What unknown primarch.......there are no unknown primarchs..... (suspicious tone). No Ferrus Manus, your acting suspicious. And why are you here anyway you floating head. Cough....Inquisitor.....assassassinate any witnesses.....cough.
I think it could be that one or both of the lost Primarch's fell to chaos either when or very shortly after they were discovered except in these instance/s being relatively smaller in comparison to the Horus Heresy the Emperor decided to keep it secret from the Imperium at large and had them erased from Imperial history records to try and keep knowledge of Chaos and it's temptations away from others who might be corrupted by it.
Considering the main point of these two was that every fan could make their own headcanons, what is the best/most interesting you saw, people? My favourite is a the interpretation one of the primarchs was a pariah.
I think one is in trayzons collection as the giant. Used as a bartering chip by the emperor for compliance and neutral gain. With trayzon being the only necron awakened but with ability to awaken others and the emperor wanting an empire. He used one to start trayzon's collection.
I always liked the idea that forgotten had been sent away by the Emperor when he recived visions of the heresy as a sort of congitgancy and the primarch was told to return at a certain, and only the wolf whose loyalty was without question knew the truth and provided a reason for the legions disapearance.
I do remember a quote about the Thousand Sons being on the edge of being expunged like the other two Primarchs before Magnus was found. I'm trying to remember the book, I think it is around Prospero Burns.
The problem I have with Master of Mankind is that it's very contradictory to the Emperor behavior of the primarchs throughout the series. He's shown to have care for many of his sons such as Horus, Sanguinius, Magnus, and etc. Sure, certain primarchs such as Angron were disfavored but they weren't left to rot not to mention that the Emperor did save Konrad from having a total psycher melt down and etc. However if I had to make a guess as to what happened to those two...It's possible that one may have been raised on a Xenos world as there's a possibility that the primarchs could have landed on such world (Tho I'd image if one of the Primarchs landed on Ulinor, then that would be a "good fight" for the Orks until the Primarch child was eventually killed and had his skull mounted on a spear). Basically said Primarch would harbor xeno sentiment and either stay with the xeno brethren to defend them from the onslaught to come from the Humans or join the Emperor and work to make xenos acceptable in the Imperium. This obviously would go against the Emperor plan so...This necessarily wouldn't exactly be the case but I do see any Primarch that denies the ideas of the Emperor to be somewhat too problematic and had to be executed. Like say a Primarch who was big on Democracy or the People in general and found the ideas of a Dictatorial Empire with oppressive nobility and strict hierarchy to be against his interests to say the least. Another potential reason for the forgotten sons would be not exactly mutations but actual handicaps such as being blind, having broken legs, deaf, and etc to be possibilities. Hell maybe if the Primarch didn't match the characteristics of being bulky and such (Like say being more skinny for agility and speed like an Elder) or potentially not developing the desired personalities (Such as someone who prefers to just be alone and/or doesn't want to wage war) being a possibility due to the fact that they simply weren't playing the roll they were intended for. This would be unlikely of reasons but still reasons whatsoever. Hell, even tho I'm 10,000 years old, I seem to have forgotten of those two...Wonder why... :/
If a Primarch had never been found, then there would have been no Legion for them. They certainly wouldn't have a specific numbered legion, it would just amount to the Primarch themselves never being mentioned. But the reason there is a mystery is because 2 of the original 20 Space Marine LEGIONS that once existed and certainly once originally had a name are missing, not just random sons of the Emperor that were created but never again had contact with him. If they either sided with or were wiped out by a Xenos race, it would have been after there was a whole legion of them.
I only have a narrative for one of the lost primarchs. An entire legion of monk marines with a flexible type of ceramite. All would be psykers but would have an inherent gift to not risk the warp's perils, as their clarity and calm lets them use their powers to boost their bodies. From there, insert various martial art weapons getting the 40k treatment.
My theory (on who they were, not how they died): at least one of the Lost Primarchs was a naval specialist. As in, actual seagoing ships. We have assault troopers, we have infiltrators, we have fast-moving bikers & siege-masters... The lack of a Legion that specializes in such an important and obvious form of warfare is otherwise baffling. Perhaps a Polynesian theme, with haka war chants and amphibious assault Rhinos? That would be badass!
An update you can add to this, the 2nd and 11th Legions are confirmed to have participated during the Rangdan xenocide. The Regimental standard “Field dressing a Lasgun Wound” confirms this in an image of the guide.
"They failed" could mean they just died before being found too. I'd like a lost primarch book about one of them that fell onto an advanced evil alien or chaos world and had to fight a guerilla war by himself, alone and unequipped, until he eventually went mad, made a mistake, and fell to the screaming hordes. I don't believe this is the case though, do to it not being a reason to expunge the records.
I was reading Fulgrim the Phoenician the other day, there Fulgrim meditates how his brothers even those found after him, don't consider him ready to take his legion out by themselves, he even comments on how the taciturn master of the second spoke against him despite him rarely doing so What I found interesting was that whatever was said was negative and Fulgrim remembers a Terran saying of pots and kettles which makes me think that the second legion had some dirt on them already
I'm only recently getting into warhammer lore. not a player but a big lore fan, I've been absorbing as much as I can and listening to horus heresy books
Mouth well essentially the story is moving forward, primarchs are coming back, the eye of terror is bigger and more and more things find human life quaint, the lore is pretty complicated cause there are very few confirmed things lorewise
One of them was born a girl, and Big E was all like "eh, no, not bothering finding that one, girls are icky". The other was a ginger, and Big E was all like "eh, no, not bothering finding that one, gingers are icky".
IMO the two primarchs did something that undermined the imperial creed. Maybe they started *gasp* cooperating with xenos and building a quite functional society that way, like the interex did. Or maybe one started using mutants in their society. The emperor would not want these stories coming out as they undermine his vision for a totally human galaxy.
One could be the giant in Baroque Power armour in Trazyn's museum. I forget actually where I read it, but there was a mention of the 2nd legion fighting Necrons during the crusade.
Now this is purely speculatory theory. What if the 2nd and 11th legions, the forgotten and the purged are the grey knights and the legion of the dammed respectively. As the knights where "forgotten" by humanity as a whole till the founding of the inquisition when they were discovered with a massively over filled chapter of battle brothers. And as for the 11th, the legion of the dammed are said to be ghostly warriors of flame that come only when astarties truely need them most then vanish without a trace once there task is completed, they could have been so corrupted by chaos in body that the emperor purged there bodies then preformed a ritual similar to the rubric to fuse their souls to their armor. This theory doesn't give us any information as to the identities or status of the lost prime-archs but it could make sense as to the reasons for these twos existence. I will do more research to try to find out if this is passable or not.
The very end was a bit incorrect. Sure, initially, the reason why the 2nd and 11th are unknown was to allow players to create their own legion. However, today the 'unknowness' is an integral part of the setting. Pitching your marines as being of the 2nd or 11th today is a bit like introducing your own Superhero and saying "He is just like Superman, except he is immune to kryptonite!" No, people will not think that interesting or cool.
I think they formed a bond with Girlyman during that one really nasty campaign mentioned in book 7, however started showing signs of unstable mutation. I can see a possibility of one slowly turning to Khorne through the campaign, but some how I think that would have been mentioned some place.
I've noticed that by looking at the Alpha legion's symbol there is a three headed hydra. The "missing" primarchs could be the second and third primarchs of the Alpha Legion.
I remember hearing a rumor once from a GW employee (in store not high up etc) that Dan Abbnet was given permission to answer the question of what happened to the two lost Primarchs but he couldn't come up with a satisfactory answer so the idea was killed off. Gotta admit this rumor sounds plausible to me as anything other than perfection, which would be impossible for everyone, would be rejected and people would hate/be disappointed it.
i think their might be a chane ( and i say might be with massive air quotes ) the chances that the emperor simply send them away somewhere to wait untill the imperium needed them the most so they might just be waiting somewhere between stars
in the book legion towards the end the guy I think Natmajira said it would not be th first time a legion was to be judged for transgressions could be stuff like what angron and his legion did but who knows
"My primarches cannot betray me!"
"also we don't talk about those 2 primarches that betrayed me."
Make up ur mind Big Emps
I wonder if we’re dealing with a man in black situation. Maybe the second and 11th legions we’re struck from the record so that they could perform some top-secret jobs.
That's my theory. Possibly a part of the Terrminus Decree.
I do believe they were task special assignments because the running theories (geneseed flaw, treason, ect) don't add up.
Maybe it was these two who The Emperor trusted most.
@@MWH12085 Or maybe it's possible that they did not fall to chaos; but rather that they commited an even greater sin in the eyes of the Emperor: *_anti-imperialism._* The two lost primarchs may have been the punks/hippies of the family. The Emperor was absolutely convinced that humanity could only thrive if it was "united" under one single galactic empire. Separatism and independantism was a threat to the very foundations of imperialism in the first place, before chaos even came into the picture.
@@EidolonSpecus I never mentioned them ever falling to Chaos. Even then, that appears to be the edgy boy thing to do.
Definite Randal Flagg situation, outrunning that Gunslinger
That make alpharius look like child's play then lol
One of them is in the throne room in Custode armor.
And the other is leading the Blood Ravens while doing backflips in Terminator Armor
Inquisitor Thomas So they finally managed to steal a Primarch?
"And the other is leading the Blood Ravens while doing backflips in Terminator Armor" - Huh, sounds like a childishly cartoon like attempt at a DOW game! But that can't be right, there is only DOW(and add-ons) and DOW2, can't wait until they make dawn of war 3, hopefully they will make it like Ultimate Apocalpse mod!!
Since you found one, I stand before you and implore you to find Daddy Dorn.
It's not like we miss him or anything, but he said he was leaving to get some milk almost ten thousand years ago...I-It's not like we failed him or anything..Oh Emperor did we?...*Looks for Painglove*
DORN IS THE MAN IN THE THRONE ROOM!!! HE LOST HIS HAND FOR HIS FATHER!!!
Vulkan also backs up Fear to Tread. When asked why he didn't say anything about Konrad Curze. He says " None of us wants another sanction, another empty pillar in the great investiary, another brother's name excised from all record. It is shame enough to bear the grief for two. I have no wish to add to it, but what choice do I have?"
This suggests that the two lost Primarchs were unstable and flawed, worse even then Curze himself. The Thousand Sons were kept around because the Emperor needed Magnus the Red for the Golden Thrown.
Yes, Curze and Angron both had circumstances that were edge cases, and capable of being excused (Curze being left alone for such a long time and Angron because he was enslaved and kept in check). Magnus, being the most powerful psyker of the lot, as you said was REQUIRED for the Emperor's further aims regardless of the horrible mutations or other Bad Things that possibly could befell them. The Thousand Sons being as unstable as they were was an unhappy thing to have as it meant one legion was basically worthless, but had to be kept around in a meaningful fashion because (as how the warp works) Magnus' happiness is proportionate to his effectiveness.
In addition Magnus and Sanguinius were both terrified that their mutations were going to lead to them being expunged like their brothers. Magnus sacrificed his first eye to stabilize the mutation in his Legion. He hid the fact that the mutation still existed and was trying to repair it before the Emperor discovered it and had his Legion expunged. Sanguinius hid the red thirst from the Emperor and everyone again for fear of being expunged like the two missing. With Curze it was not a mutation that was his problem yet a psychological one. He was just insane from his upbringing and his constant nightmares brought by visions of the heresy and his death. In any talk the primarchs have of the two unknown primarchs they all show regret and sadness. Few show understanding and all wish that something else had happened.
@Anubitek but where was it thrown?
@@thomascoolidge2161 I wonder did the Ruinious Powers cursed Magnus and Sanguinius to make their geneseed to become unstable to be used as bargaining chips to make it easier for them to corrupt.
You do know the most powerful Psyker of them all was Leman Russ, for sheer raw power. It's how he was able to break Magnus's back when they burned prospero if I remember right? His raw power completely nullified Magnus' powers in that confrontation, on the rare occasion he would reluctantly unleash it, being afraid of the power he has.
Apparently, during Horus' spirit journey when he saw the primarchs in their tubes, Horus touched the eleventh tube. It's possible that that very touch, caused the taint of chaos upon this Primarch.
But Horus was not yet a servant of chaos at that time, that choise came at the end of the spirit journey. So could he really taint the primarch while not really being chaos tainted himself? I doubt it.
Well chaos was infecting horus at that time and that touch could very possibly have transfered that. I mean Xaphen just had to hit the field with a energysword to start everything that led to this point. So I doubt you need more than a listening interacting person to trigger such things.
Touched the tube, not the primarch lol
gray ghost it should also be noted that the 11th Legion's primarch is shown in the array of primarch faces as having a large gem coming out of his forehead. That could have something to do with the touch of Horus
grayghost that’s a pretty good theory. But since all of them had already been tainted I doubt it.
ok, new Theory. what if the 2nd and 11th are responsible for EACH OTHER'S destruction?
if one went traitor, and the other died fighting him? and they were both erased from record to keep what turned the traitor secret?
We know one legion and primarch was destroyed by the others.We dont know anything about the other one.
My story is something like that.
This is kinda my theory - One Primarch/Legion turned on the other, for reasons unknown, and was duly censured, by the Emperor, using Russ and his Wolves. The remaining brethren of the other Legion, now Primarch-less. were subsumed into the ranks of the Ultramarines, but both stricken from Imperial records, to hide the deed.
This, in turn, leads to a very interesting suggestion that the Ultramarines' gene seed is not, in fact, pure Guilliman, but a hybrid of his, and his lost brother's ...
@@graemecollin that could explain why sometimes I feel like Guillieman is living with some serious guilt, and not just because he didn't see through horous soon enough to stop him. What if one legion turned on the emperor before the heresy and the emperor sent the other to purge them and those dudes have since been lost in the warp or stranded on a space hulk. I've also go a theory that the missing legions were the first to encounter the tyranid and got obliterated but the emperor his it from mankind because he knew the threats that were coming from the warp and knew we weren't ready for the tyranid.
That would explain why one was censored, but why would his victim be obliterated? I prefer the idea that they got so caught up in a petty rivalry or internal politicking that they lost it, both went mad, and started their own private war. By the time the other legions could intervene, both Primarchs were dead, and had utterly failed in their mission.
They both fell down some stairs.
William Bibens falling down the stairs is no joke. I have severe nerve damage due to falling down stairs. Tricky buggers.
Martyn James exactly, it’d be even harder if you’re wearing several hundred tons of armour
I'm currently searching for the lost primarch.
Garviel Loken *mumbles*
That happens to pregnant primarchs.
I think I recall a theory that each Primarch was an expression of the Emperor's emotions or an aspect of war
So, what if the Primarch's were the Emperor's fear and empathy?
One Primarch could have become so traumatized by the constant war that he couldn't go on. He would have been the forgotten
The other one might have "gone native" and developed empathy for a xenos race. He might even have fallen on a xenos world and raised by by non humans (like Mortarian except this Primarch for whatever reason sided with the xenos) He would have been purged
To the Emperor, both would have been seen as even worse than Treason, weaknesses that undermined the very reason they were created. The flesh change might have been seen as useful in war. Unwillingness to fight or siding with non humans over the Empire would not.
Just a personal hypothesis
That would be an interesting theory
It's interesting.. but the Emperor wanted to work with Xeno's. Atleast some of them.. Maybe if they were an Overtly Dominant species like the Orks?..... Now that would be.. Sickening. "Gork" and "Mork" aren't actually Orks.. just the Orks Idealised version of the Primarchs that fell on to one of there planets.. and became Right Orky!
Otherwise i don't see it too much.
@@WarriorTRZ The Angry Marines are pretty orky. Except they rage instead of enjoy, but the violence is there.
Based on that, one committed suicide- possibly because of gene seed flaw, and the other never ascended to power of some sort? I like the suicide angle, but as for the other, i'd say that he actually asked the emperor for help for his mutation and thusly was culled. WHAT IF HE WAS A PSYKER!? Emperor didn't like psykers at the time did he? Aw shit son.
@@0Sirk0 What? Magnus was a psyker, and Emperor valued him. Big E himself knows that he is the greatest psyker the human race has produced.
My bet: the two legions were a taste of things to come in the Heresy: one legion turned to Chaos and the other fought it. At that time it was seen as unbelievable that one brother would have good reason to turned against the other. Thus the Purged is the traitorous legion and the Forgotten is the one which destroyed it without the Emperor's orders to do so.
Considering none of the Legions knew the truth of Chaos, I find it hard to believe that any of the Unknown Primarchs would have fallen :/
Imperial citizens can be enlightened by Chaos...
True, though I would assume the one's doing the purging would then learn of it themselves..
The most important servants of Chaos sometimes don't even know that they even serve Chaos at all...
It doesn't need to be the Chaos gods at play for them to go traitor.
The Empire was on a genocidal purge of the galaxy, not just of xenos but of all human cultures that differed much at all from the Emperor's visions. You don't see any non-European cultural influences across all of the Imperial worlds in WarHammer 40K.
So a traitor legion could well have turned on the Empire out of moral conviction and honor. That is most definitely something the Emperor would want purged from the records.
Kitten: but what happened to your lost primarchs?
Emps: we don't talk about them..
Kitten: why?
Emps:because we don't talk about them. >:(
because i'm the motherfuckin' emprah and thus i'm allowed to do this!!
Note that they are usually mentioned as "traitors", not "heretics". It's possible that they did not fall to chaos like Horus' followers; but rather that they commited an even greater sin in the eyes of the Emperor: anti-imperialism. The two lost primarchs may have been the hippies of the family.
What if one or both of the lost primarchs had ideals that clashed Emperor's? Like being xeno-friendly.
Alistravia (my) second primarch. Openly researched artificial inelegance and even had one that was the AI that manged her home world.
Yeah. I've always played with the theory that they landed on technologically advanced worlds that were a lot less shitty than most. One on a world were people practiced transhumanism and the other a star trek style xeno federation/alliance. They both join the emperor at first but when he orders there homes purged they side with their people
(Though in my own stupid head canon they and their homesystrms are trapped behind a warp storm and cut off from the imperium before the space wolves can purge them
I like the idea of one not wanting to purge Xenos and ally with them instead
The False Emperor was OK with Eldar, and other races who didn't just be outright hostile, just as long as they didn't hinder the Imperium... Temporarily....
i doubt he would of allowed any primarch to ally with them tho it's said the thousand sons did once
I had the following idea for a nice plotline surrounding on of the primarchs:
Imagine one of the primarchs was send on a exploration mission beyond the boarders of the galaxy. A mission so secret that his name had to be purged from history. He travels with a gigantic fleet through the void. He even carries 4 "Hive-Ships" with him, basicly floating mega-cities. Inside those hive-ships the human workforce builds or repairs equipment from the massive amount of raw material he took with him or grows crops in specialised environments (and repopulates). Because his Legion is on his own, its bigger then even the old pre heresy Legions. But he also carries big amounts of normal human fighting forces with him in the hive-ships, aswell as a contingent of the Adeptus Mechanicus, positioned in one of the hive ships (a forge hive ship). This travel was difficult as every material lost was irreplaceable. So they were constantly under pressure of this clock ticking.
But his journey was not a lucky one, as he met a Tyranid hive fleet. The battle was won and the fleet eradicated but the loses were high. So high indeed that the next encounter with the tyranids was a unwinable one. The battle was devastating. They lost an entire hive ship in that battle. Several battle barges and more smaller cruisers had to sacrifice themselfs to allow the rest of the fleet to flee. Beaten and angry the rest of the fleet returned to their galaxy.
He even had a short encounter with the silent king. They noticed a ship of unknown kind flying past them in a distancet. The primarch decided not to shoot at it, as they already were fleeing from the tyranids and didnt need another enemy.
Now after a few less then 10 000 years the primarch has returned. He lands the remaining Hive Ships on almost empty green planet, turning it into a hive world in the blink of an eye. Then he instantly made contact to Tera. He wanted to talk to his father after all those years.
A return like that would have a massive impact on the empire. Even if their original numbers have dwindled, it still is a massive reinforcement for the empire. (several 10 000 of Marines and a primarch) And even better they brought ancient tech with them, that today has become a rarity and even some special technology, that has been created only for this journey.
If the Tyranids absorbed a Primarch's DNA ...
Damn... that actualy makes an uncomfortible amount of sence
My personal theory is a variant of that might have happened to the 2nd (Lost).
All the Primarchs have varying degrees of psyhic power, but imagine an Primarch who is a blank, a Sister of Silence, a Pariah.
A Primarch who wields the Null as powerfully as Magnus or Sanguinus wielded their psychic gifts.
Big E would want him but Magnus nearly destroyed the Imperial Webway, imagine what the Second could do to the Webway or Astronomicon by accident.
So he took his legion and circles the Imperium, the first line of defence against the Void and the unexplored zones, unable to return before the Imperium is ready because they depend in psychic powers to function.
*terra
Q: Who, and what happened, to the Lost Primarchs?
A: Fanfics
To quote Big E from TTS:
“We don’t talk about them.”
@@MoskHotel "let us not talk about it"
"LET US NOT FUCKING TALK ABOUT IT"
End QUOTE!
Indeed the worst fate that may happen to a son of the big E ^^
Mutation could be possible, Magnus "stabilized" his Legion's Geneseed so the Emperor may have held off.
Also maybe mutations in the lost legions were worst thant that of the thousand sons.
@@Justme-rt4gj What's worse than mutating into Chaos Spawn?
@@Anomaly188 maybe they were more widespread in the legion.
Turn out we will have to wait to be in 30k to know what happen to the unknowns primarchs
Redem10 THIS UNKNOWN THIS UNCERTAINTY I MUST LEARN OF THEM, COME ON GW
I think it's a "mystery" because the spaces are deliberately left open for fans to make their own legions for the "missing". Notice how they're labeled as "forgotten" and "traitor", it's up to your interpretaion as to what and how that came to be.
The "mystery" is, what you could potentiallly make for them. I get that this might be a "boring" reveal, but to me, leaving a slot open on either side for fans to fill in a manner of their own choosing is kind of the very heart of the creative process when painting miniatures
How about the GW made a flashback story series though
@@popburnsy3207 thats definitely their take. Its all so people can make custom chapters for play, I dont see GW ever revealing anything of importance regarding them because they would lose quite a bit of money.
And thus I will wait, *I will*
Unless those two primarchs went out like total wimps, I don't think death by xenos is a good reason to be erased from all records.
Wasn't Rogal Dorn last seen fighting orks and now thought dead.
@@MaestroAlvis Yeah but Big E and Malcador arent there anymore.
Russ killed at least one.
My personal theory is the 11th (Purged) got corrupted by a Xenos race similar to who Lorgar got corrupted by a Chaos weapom the Laer Blade.
The prime suspects being the Hrud and/or the Rangdan.
The Rangdan Xenocides almost destroyed the Imperium, the idea of Astartes and a Primarch falling to such Xenos would explain
*The clean survivors becoming renamed as Fists / Ultramarines sucessors to hide what happened.
*The Wolves being sent out against the corrupted elements and Primarch, especially since the Canis Helix modifies the Wolves to the point of no other humans being able to take Russ's geneseed and logically giving them slightly more protection.
*The anti-Xenos sentiments in the modern Imperium compared to the Emperors previous views.
They were ambushed by orc snipers and wiped out without inflicting a single casualty.
There is actually real life history we can use to explain the loss of the two legions. The Roman IX.
Although unconfirmed, it is widely accepted that Rome removed all records of the Roman Ninth Legion. Because if the idea spread that a Roman Legion can be beaten, then their enemies would multiply.
It is likely that the 2nd and 11th legions were removed from records because the idea that a Xenos race could be so powerful/advanced that it can actually defeat a space marine legion, that could lead to the morale issues within the legions/solar auxillia and humanity in general. Not to mention, slow down the crusade as caution would start to take hold.
This is what ahppened to the 2nd in the fanfiction The Weaver Option. In the fanfic the second and it's primarch attacked the Ymga Monolith and got fucked by the Necrons and then finished the job by unleashing a Ctan that possed the primarch and thus the legion was struck from the reccords and any survivors left ended their own lives because with a Ctan controlling a primarch, even one that is imprisoned and shackeld by the Necrons could be a massive threat, the legion or elemets of it could have tunred (not that there was much left after the Necrons fucked them) but I think it was a really cool take on the 2nd, Weaver Option is a great fic and the author already hinted at the 11th so I'm exited for that down the line.
Fanfic doesn't matter lol
Personally I like to believe it was two of your theories. One could have had Horrible Mutations and instead of letting themselves be purified, decided to revolt against the Emperor in which Russ was ordered to put them down. The other having fought in that extremely Brutal Xenocide campaign you mention, and shamed the Emperor in one way or another, like..Trying to...B...Bef..Befri...Gah...Befriend..T-The..The...Xeno...
But one Legion was mention to be the Forgotten while the other the Traitor, so it could also have been that one was horriblely mutated (Again), Russ and the Other legion was then sent to purge them and the two of them completely killed each other off.
After all, the Iron Cage proved that even if one Legion has amazing Fortifications, as long as they both have their Primarchs they'll basically wipe each other out unless a third Legion intervenes.
Imperial Fists - befriend
and
xeno do not go together
I know this you walking Corpse, Yet for doing something so..
Horrible...
I would understand the Emperor Purging every last bit of information on them, so it must have been said to put the Theory out there.
Imperial Fists - and that is something we can both agree on
What if one of the lost primarchs pods had landed on a lost forge world?
The primarch had become the head adeptus mechanicus? Thus making himself part of the forge world itself?
This is the same thing I am thinking.
Separate tragedies-- one mutated thus causing other Primarchs to hide the mutations in their own legion, the other turning traitor but not because of Chaos influence-- simply because the Great Crusade was too unjust and brutal.
I like to imagine the two lost primarchs realized that the Emperor was actually a genocidal sociopath and decided to tell him to screw himself without having to fall to chaos to do the same. (Or at least one of them did.)
Here's a thought, what if one of the Primarchs had become obsessed with AI tech?
do you think that the lost primarchs could have refused to join the emperor outright. and so were purged along wither there worlds
COMMIASSR NAT or perhaps they left the galaxy and the Emperor just made it look that way it is after all implied that the Tyranids for all their power are running away from something out there beyond our galaxy
That's the Idea hat holds the most merit to me. That the lost and the purged where brought up on independent and proud worlds that wouldn't bend to the Tyrannical rule of the Emperor.
angron refused to join
And maybe this time the Emperor got sick of it and teleported him anyway on his barge
COMMIASSR NAT seems the most likely of things to happen, it's also could be possible that the Emperor founds the traits of he primarchs to be undesirable and purged them for this.
Maybe the lost Primarchs went AWOL in the warp or something
The Byrd I've always been a fan of that theory. One of the lost primarchs simply disappeared into the warp at some point, with a chunk of his/her legion. That would make them "the lost"
The other one, however, pulled some shit.
My running theory on at least what one of the legions practiced as their preferred method of war was that one of the legions contained the Destroyers. In the book Robute Guilliman the Destroyers were specialist squads of space marines that specialized in nuclear and biological warfare. Guilliman was known to have said that there were other Destroyer marines in other legions such as the Ravenguard and the Emperors Children. Another trademark distinction of the Destroyers is that other than their legions heraldry and a stripe on their helmet they wore all black armor. This could play into the mutation theory due to the constant use of radioactive material and biological weapons causing them to mutate and the only marines not mutated are the ones who at the time were either aspirants scouts or brand new battle brothers.
+ Carson Casmirri -- I'm fond of the notion that the Primarchs were _not_ created to be Generals in the Great Crusade but instead were bred to serve in major positions in the post-crusade Imperium. Viewed this way, the worlds the Primarchs landed on, and the families that took them in really did mould their personalities but to become the exact _opposite_ of their intended function. With a few rare exceptions like Guilliman (head of the Administratum)
A few hilarious possibilities include:
Leman Russ as Grand Marshal of the Space Marine Military Police
Rogal Dorn as Grand Admiral of the Imperial Fleet
Lorgar as High Philosopher of the Imperial Truth
Konrad Kurze as Grand Provost Marshall of the Adeptus Arbites
Perturabo as Minister of Education
Sanguinius as ambassador to the (unpurged) Xenos races
Angron as psychiatrist and grief councilor to the other Primarchs
Alpharius was one dude with two bodies able to communicate instantly across any distance. The possibilities are endless.
With that in mind, several of the Primarchs fought with the Emperor when they were discovered. Perhaps one fought the Emperor _to the death_ and the Emperor purged his legion "just to be safe." Meanwhile there's a neat incident about a "False Primarch" in M33. Perhaps the "forgotten" Primarch came out of retirement for some reason and got destroyed by the rest of the Imperium.
Lastly, Edicts of Obliteration have never sat well with me. Since Space Marines have photographic memory and can (literally) eat people's thoughts, you'd think there's be some sort of Primarch who gave new meaning to the term "living memory." Perturabo comes close since he was apparently enough of a compulsive tinkerer to give Tech Priests the willies. But I think "Archivist" and "Teacher" are two completely different jobs.
My premise runs on the following: I am interested in the Destroyer squads, so I might incoop them into my legion as heavily used. Legion XI is The Desert Lions. Primarch Nemeas, Lion of the Desert (could be a form of Rad Wastes).
He survived as long as he did because of being a primarch, but ultimately died anyway of his saturation of the desert in which he was found, but not before starting and building his legion properly. My thread: www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?167923-Desert-Lions-SM/page5
Angron as a psychiatrist. Dear god I hope someone draws that.
+ Xenos Tyrant -- What? According to the lore the Butcher's nails bleach the mind of compassion and cause Skinner-esque conditioning to cross-wire the brain to associate aggression and violence with physical pleasure. Just like in Crichton's book _The Terminal Man._
If the theory that the Chaos Gods sent each Primarch to the planet where they'd receive the worst possible upbringing holds, then Angron would have to have been destined to be the most loyal, empathetic and compassionate Primarch before he was abducted by Chaos. The most ironic thing possible would be to pull the old "therapist becomes the patient" gag.
I understood what you were saying but I just found the image of Heresy Angron calmly discussing a patients problems and then flipping out over some small thing hilarious. It's definitely interesting although I would say that Magnus went to the best place for him other than Terra as Prospero taught him how to control his powers which would have been difficult elsewhere.
Interesting thing about the idea of Russ putting down the Unknown Primarchs. In Mark of Calth one of the Ultramarines was censored by Guilliman, for the treason of even IMAGINING the idea of fighting against Space Marines, and coming up with "Theoreticals" for it.
This suggests to me, that it's unlikely that Russ or any other Space Marine actually sanctioned the Lost Primarchs. If Space Marine on Space Marine action actually happened, I wouldn't think that coming up with "Theoreticals" against Space Marines would be so shocking and unheard of. After all, if Russ fell, who would put him down? The Ultramarines? They had to sanction the Word Bearers after all, so not too far outside of belief for me.
I'm thinking that one of them probably succumbed to rampant mutation like the Blood Angels almost did, and the Thousand Sons were on the way to once the NERD! ramped up the Flesh Change. This could be the REDACTED lost battle damaged legion as well. Perhaps those xenos creatures having some sort of weapon that twisted and mutated the legion itself to the point of madness and disgrace beyond redemption. Considering things like the Hrud's ability to entropy field things... I don't see it as all that unusual.
I'm thinking the other, being probably was an assassination. It would explain why the Assassinorum ever thought it could kill Konrad Curze or Horus (or the Emperor) as in during Nemesis: War in the Shadows. We know that the Primarchs aren't beyond mere mortals kicking their asses after all. The Lion was nearly taken clean out in a straight up swordfight honor duel against Luther after all. And if he was the first Primarch ever assassinated he probably didn't expect it nor had any primarch since even thought it was possible that they could be bested by a mere mortal or anything of the like.
Heck in Unremembered Empire Guilliman himself almost gets chumped out by 10 no name jobber Space Marines. And this was with him at least suspecting the strike moments before it happened.
Well Russ could consider it, that was why the other brothers did not like him one bit. It may have been they got the legionaries while the Assassins got the primarchs proper. He was willing to drop Angron and did not even blink when Horus changed the orders from capture to kill with Magnus.
I really like that you update the theory videos when new info arises.
"Wait. I'M the failure, but you're keeping Angron?!?"
"At least you dont keep Konra... wait wtf??"
This is the second time I've heard the two legions referred to as "the Forgotten and the Purged". The entire theory as to what that could mean should be left up to grammar and the use or non-use of the Oxford comma.
If they're referred to as -- The forgotten and the purged (without a comma after Forgotten), it's most likely both were purged and forgotten about. If they're referred to as --- The forgotten*,* and the purged, then it stands to reason one of the legions was purged from the Imperium by another Legion, and the other was simply forgotten about for some reason.
My 11th legion were the Myrmidons...trapped in a warp storm that seemed endless and timeless. After they had spent unmeasured time in that Limbo...they were found by Ma'lal...a.k.a. Malice...who gave them a choice...devote themselves to his service or remain in their own personal hell for eternity. The agreed...and became the Renegade Legion, The Taken, as they were taken by Malice to be his warriors.
IMO its:
2nd legion lost most of their numbers and then primarch during the multiple re-unifications of humanity (forgotten)
11th succumbed to severe (not human anymore) mutations, based on the Horus vision of "untapped potential" in the XI chamber (purged)
My thinking too
ANDELE3025 except it’s heavily implied the forgotten primarch had been destroyed during the rangdan xenocides
Catnium this really does make the most sense, to me. From a player standpoint, having it be undefined is the point. No mystery at all, the answer is all in your brush(brain?) just waiting to be placed on the table
or what if the eleventh primarch became Malal
I have been playing with the idea of one of the legions escaping into the human webway. They managed to contain it using their inherent abilities as blanks to salvage and repair a piece of it and have been floating in the webway as a shadow observing everything going on on the outside occasionally sending out warbands to carry out their primarch's. The Emperor and by extension the Imperium sees them as renegade, they have always and still do fight for the people, though they are now forced to work outside the law so to speak, building an elaborate and complex spy network that includes other renegade chapters, rogue traders, nobles and governors, and even some xenos. But now that the eye of terror has basically divided the galaxy in half following the fall of Cadia (tearful salute) they are now faced with a dilemma. Do they stay out of it and hide in their webway home only to eventually be destroyed by any faction that eventually stumbles upon them anyway? Or do they come out to try to slow the spread of the eye of terror and potentially expose them to those who may still wish them dead? Either way, many carefully forged alliances could be shattered and their elaborately created spy network potentially destroyed.
What if the space marines they send are the legion of the dammned?
A chapter with no insignia or regalia would be cool, just solid black armor to represent their expunged state.
I feel that the two Lost Primarchs are going to be used by GW as something they can introduce at later times to add freshness to the franchise. The reintroduction of a lost primarch in a great time of need for human kind would be a pretty good story.
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT NUMBER 11 COULD HAVE FEEL TO MALAL/MALICE! just really happy you mentioned it.
(now in Character) ELEVENTH WAS BAD THE SECOND ONE IS DEAD BECAUSE OF HORUS!!
I would agree here in that the 11th Legion were taken by Mallus/Malal...I had them...As the Star Guard...led by Toryn Rohja as Primarch...a Space borne legion who vanished into the warp during the mid 30th Millenia...returning in the 40th as The Taken...Mallus/Malal Chaos Marines who served him in his great crusade to kill the 4 great Chaos Powers. They were the true Death Marines...even having their armor sporting Adamantium Skulls as the faces of their helms...not just painted on. Their colors were Black, Silver and White. The rode arround in a Great Crusade Era Grand War Barge...THE IRON SUN...which also related to their emblem a Silver-Gray Sun with a Black Shield imposed upon it.
Was a fun time...working all the background up for this idea. :) Just wish most of it had not gone away when my HD died.
All praise Malal! :D
While not being too deep on the Lore when I played WH40k, I always imagined the two primarchs being a way for players to insert their own chapters into the game world.
Given that this is a tabletop game, that's there most likely reason. But it is funny to watch people trip over themselves coming up with all kinds of overly complex excuses lololol
Favourited and liked. What a great video! Really good use of sources.
I distinctly recall Russ saying flat out that he has the "most" experience killing primarchs(during the Horus Heresy series) - and this was after he learns that Fullgrim killed Ferrus Manus .
I remember that 11 is the sacred number of malal....maaaaybe, jjust sayin
Malal?
Since 2nd, I always assumed it was meant for the players to be able to role-play their own chapters with a primarch in their own lore.
Very well done. I like these updated theories as time goes on.
It would seem at least to me, that one of the Primarch's and their legion turning against the Emperor in outrage against the mass genocide of Xeno's species, is not too far fetched. Imagine a soft-hearted Primarch that deeply respected all forms of life, rejecting an order to purge a world of mostly peacefull Xeno's.
Maybe 'The Forgotten' left the Emperor's Crusade thinking it would be accepted, but then was utterly destroyed because the danger of the idea of lack of belief in the Imperium's ideals. 'The Purged' could be flawed or mutated marines that Sanginius was alluding to.
If covered by anyone before I apologise. The fact 21 chairs were left 1 for the Emperor and 20 others one for each Primarch and theres only one seat for the Alpha Legion suggests it wasnt common knowledge that Alparius and Omegon were twin Primarchs. So when Isfrael tells Zahariel The Lion has 19 brothers he can not be counting the twins in that numbers as a) the Alpha Legion were all about secrecy and b) the Dark Angels were all about secrecy. Isfrael wouldnt be passing on sensitive information to a relativly junior member of the Dark Angel Legion surely?
Alpharius also went by the name " the Threefold Serpent" possibly suggesting a link with a third Primarch.
Also at some point several of the Primarchs have been cloned in one shape or form yet the two missing Primarchs have not- that we know of and within the Galaxy no suitable figure has come forward to suggest they could be in the frame which suggests a very very thorough removal, almost like what The Emperor inflicted on Horus at the climax of the Heresy and even then Horus was subsequently cloned later down the line anyway.
If the Emperor had erased them for treason etc why would Guilliman wish to honour them?
The Imperium likes to honour fallen heros so seems unlikly that two Primarchs would be striken yet the Dark Angels whom were also present would be left alone given there part in the Rangdon Xenocide.
Didnt Horus strike the second gestation pod in the Vault beneath Terra during his Heresy inspiring vision with Sejanus(Erebus) causing hairline fracture on the pod. Would this not compromise the pod during The Scattering possibly opening the way for the occupant to be corrupted (Lost)?
Also The Legion of the Damned (lost) with a nod to Lithiumjuice Artwork below.
It turns out I am a geek.
What if the two lost Primarchs landed on Xenos planets?
Perhaps they where raised by Eldar or somthing like that?
Maybe they refused to join the emperor because of his xenophobic ways.
How old is the Eldar avatars of Khaine and Ynnari? Just wonder because they could be the lost Primarchs.
Benjamin Hellblom khaine is way older and ynnari is far to young
Love these theory videos because it gives so much possibility for GW to attempt to release small details about these two Primarchs.
Great vid have caught a few but never actually finished them until now. Hopefully GW will add those 2 primarchs and their legions to lore. Would love to know...Subbed keep up the good work 👍
My theory had always been one Primarch had been kept on ice in case of a situation so dire the emperor unleashed them as a final solution. The other embraced the nature of death and became the controlling force behind the legion of the damned.
I like the idea of the legion of the damned being the lost legion
Right so I have just been listening to blood games by Dan Abnett. There is a mention that Constantine Valdor was a giant of man bigger than Amon and resembled one of the giant statutes in the investory. Please correct me if I am wrong but aren't those statues of the Primarchs. Could it be that Constantine is one of the missing Primarchs hence the redaction of the records? Interesting even though it may go against some of the custodes cannon, however misdirection would be a common tactic to hide a secret like that. Food for thought
I made a fan made story for one of the Lost Primarchs was that the 2nd & 7th Primarchs were religious/spiritualists of ancient Terran religions. They recognized the religious & mythological nature of man that the Emperor despised in ordered to starve or defeat the Chaos gods. One was defeated by Leman Russ for reminding the Emperor too much of the Last Church during the time of the Unification Wars and the other sacrificed himself fighting Xenos in hopes the Emperor would be touched by his sacrifice for what he believed in.
I always liked the idea that at least one of the lost primarchs was a psychic blank of immense power, and more importantly control. And I also like the idea that he was created to essentially judge the emperor, to act as a spotter if you will. To be beyond the emperors meddling and in a position to directly stop him if he ever went off the deep end, but because of the scattering he couldn't be raised in the way the emperor needed him to be to be a fair judge and was purged. The other is, uh, a girl because why not
Part of me always believed that Sigmar was one of them, still do frankly. But if we remove that possibility then I would say that SOMETHING big happened, not just some mutation or some betrayal but something big...and while I always believed, and to be honest still do, that Sigmar is probably that 11th one, the other one...well, am I the only one who thinks the Tau are a little too much like a SM legion? Maybe one landed on a planet with aliens, was raised by them and ruled over them, and after he died or got offed by the Emperor the remaining aliens kept hold of his teachings and eventually decided to carry out his beliefs: "Let's all go crusade against disorder (Chaos) and bring about unity...also let's find that Great Good that the boss was always going on and on about, some dude he called Dad half the time!"
Yeah it sounds crazy, but it's kinda plausible.
Sigmar is the forgotten and Tau are the purged. I can agree with that.
To be honest, I'd write that prequel duology for them for cheap if they ever asked, "The Lost Sons--Book One: The Forgotten, Book Two: The Purged". The first one is basically just a prequel to every Warhammer Fantasy story and the second is basically leading into the birth of the Tau Empire from an outsider's point of view.
But what if Sigmar is the Emperor?
I want to believe the fantasy and 40k universe is linked. Therefore I want to believe Sigmar is one of the lost primarchs.
The Tau aren't really a possibility as the beginning and end of their societal progress was noted within relatively recent imperial records. The fact that the primarchs were found, were part of the Imperial retinue, they did have their own chapters that at one point had names and their geneseed exists rules out any possibility of a person raised by Xenos or any other solution that would have precluded them meeting the Emperor again or a legion being founded from them.
Sigmar is thus not a likely candidate at all.
Maybe the on forgotten didn't want to join the imperium and the purged one was the one that was wiped out during the great crusade
I have pretty much the same opinion
I mean it does kind of make sense since they only said they failed but they didn't say they at what. So it could have ment one failed in combat and the other failed just because he refused his father so it was decided that he was to be left alone and forgotten
A cool possibility could be the Emperor found navigational data from The Old Ones, or the Necrons regarding the deep core.
He sent one or both of them there to create a small human empire that no one else knows about to ensure the species survival should the Imperium be wiped out.
Also, i love how ya’ll source the info during the video.
Back a few decades ago I read an article/interview where one of the creators said they left two slots open for players to create their own chapters. That being so, they will never be named by GW but there will be thousands of claimants made by us; so go create your own chapter... mine always turn out to be Ultramarine successors anyhow.
The Purged one: faced mutations during the great crusade thanks to a Rangdan weapon that exposed genetic imperfections and those affected, primarch included, had to be 'sanitized' by Russ.
The Forgotten one: after the xenocide he became disillusioned towards the Emperor and the great crusade and took some of what was left of his legion plus a siezable amount of people and escaped imperial control, and maybe the galaxy itself, in hope to found a colony based on peace. That or he began being worshipped as a god by the people and he came to believe that he was one.
What do you think?
One of the unkown primarchs is the kool aid man. "Oh yah! For the emporer!"
I like to think that they both and their closest and best astartes are still alive, having survived their quote-on-quote “fates” but are being held in the collection of none other than Trazyn the infinite, much like Bile’s clone of Fulgrim.
I was wondering why I already listen to this Thanks for the update.
That is not the voice I would have imagined for Sanguinius....
Yeah he sounds like a bit of a moron lol. I always imagined him a bit more well spoken.
11th legion belongs to Malice
Ghaztoir
It is his number.
I'd like to think that the second legion receeded into a mindset that started a second Dark Age of Technology. The Men of Iron were no fucking joke.
It's obvious why the two legions were gotten rid of along with their Primarchs.
The 2nd legion was the one everyone played in play testing for 2nd edition. They dominated the in house tournament meta as well and all the Black Library authors fought over who could write the most Mary Sue book about the legion. Play testers wanted them nerfed but when they started to overshadow the Ultramarines they just had to be liquidated.
The 11th was simply guilty of having a legion symbol that infringed upon someone's IP, specifically GW's own IP. It was too similar to the Ultramarines symbol. So in an ironic twist GW sued themselves to force themselves to permanently expunge the legion and it's symbol.
This is clearly the only logical theory going.
Great video, thank you.
Back in the days i wrote down my own story about the lost primarchs, something very simple, with a really good primarch and a really bad one. As of now, i loved Remleiz's story about Sigmar as a primarch, so i'm keeping that as a piece of personal lore, although i want to modify AoS lore to make it fit into the homebrew lore. Still trying to think some interesting 11th primarch to put with Sigmar. Any ideas?
Archaon.
40K Theories, Remliez I have a theory for you to look into.
The Emperor referred to Horus as his Dreadful Sagittary, and the implications of the symbols on the Gene Lab doors imply the Primarchs match up with known star signs and or constellations and even Tarot cards (of course The Emperors Tarot also adds to this theory, since well it had to be based on the real Tarot cards at some point)
I found a thread discussing this here www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?135694-The-primarchs-zodiac-rings
In the thread someone posted and this was mentioned:
Shortly after Horus Rising was published, a forum user on the Black Library forums, Anguipes, devised a system based on a combination of the Tarot, astrology and a small amount of the Sephirot to read the Primarchs' personalities. By his reckoning, these are the personalities which each Primarch would have had without any outside interference.
One of those links:
menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/IV.html
Sure it was made by a fan but if he did his research well we may have something to explain the symbolism the Emperor attached to the Primarchs and the door of the gene lab.
I will take a look when I can :)
Thanks and take your time, it was just something I noticed recently re-reading the HH novels I own and got curious and you are the master inquisitor of theories so thought I would suggest it.
On your idea of Custom Legions... when my only actual experience with the Space Marine video game, and I learned of the Lost Primarchs, I went and made my own Legion. Never used it, but it was a fun little thing to make.
Only experience with 40k remains Space Marine, and the Lexicanum wiki. And videos like this.
Glad I subscribed!
Might be the Forgotten turned away from war or turned to a chaos god of Order like Alluminas. That he would not fight for the Emperor would be seen as a failure.
jipowap47 who's alluminas
What unknown primarch.......there are no unknown primarchs..... (suspicious tone). No Ferrus Manus, your acting suspicious. And why are you here anyway you floating head. Cough....Inquisitor.....assassassinate any witnesses.....cough.
YOU ARE WEAAAK GOD EMPEROR- skost of ferrus manus m41
Yes Ferrus, we know.
+MrTurbowhitey You don't know nothin. None of you do!!!
God Emperor of Mankind I might
Magnus The Red Neeeeeeeeeeeeerd.
I think it could be that one or both of the lost Primarch's fell to chaos either when or very shortly after they were discovered except in these instance/s being relatively smaller in comparison to the Horus Heresy the Emperor decided to keep it secret from the Imperium at large and had them erased from Imperial history records to try and keep knowledge of Chaos and it's temptations away from others who might be corrupted by it.
Considering the main point of these two was that every fan could make their own headcanons, what is the best/most interesting you saw, people? My favourite is a the interpretation one of the primarchs was a pariah.
40k Theories, also known as the Malice Theories. :D
Maybe one of the Primarchs was Omegon? Or Alpharius? Or something to do with the Alpha Legion
Emperor Of Denmark Those two haven‘t been found at that point.
I think one is in trayzons collection as the giant. Used as a bartering chip by the emperor for compliance and neutral gain. With trayzon being the only necron awakened but with ability to awaken others and the emperor wanting an empire. He used one to start trayzon's collection.
I always liked the idea that forgotten had been sent away by the Emperor when he recived visions of the heresy as a sort of congitgancy and the primarch was told to return at a certain, and only the wolf whose loyalty was without question knew the truth and provided a reason for the legions disapearance.
I used to be primarch like you, then I took an arrow in the knee.
I'd prefer to know what happen and still create my own Legion. Knowledge is. Power, Guard it Well.
I think the reason those primarchs are unknown is so people have room to integrate their own custom chapters and lore in their games.
I do remember a quote about the Thousand Sons being on the edge of being expunged like the other two Primarchs before Magnus was found. I'm trying to remember the book, I think it is around Prospero Burns.
The problem I have with Master of Mankind is that it's very contradictory to the Emperor behavior of the primarchs throughout the series. He's shown to have care for many of his sons such as Horus, Sanguinius, Magnus, and etc. Sure, certain primarchs such as Angron were disfavored but they weren't left to rot not to mention that the Emperor did save Konrad from having a total psycher melt down and etc.
However if I had to make a guess as to what happened to those two...It's possible that one may have been raised on a Xenos world as there's a possibility that the primarchs could have landed on such world (Tho I'd image if one of the Primarchs landed on Ulinor, then that would be a "good fight" for the Orks until the Primarch child was eventually killed and had his skull mounted on a spear). Basically said Primarch would harbor xeno sentiment and either stay with the xeno brethren to defend them from the onslaught to come from the Humans or join the Emperor and work to make xenos acceptable in the Imperium. This obviously would go against the Emperor plan so...This necessarily wouldn't exactly be the case but I do see any Primarch that denies the ideas of the Emperor to be somewhat too problematic and had to be executed. Like say a Primarch who was big on Democracy or the People in general and found the ideas of a Dictatorial Empire with oppressive nobility and strict hierarchy to be against his interests to say the least.
Another potential reason for the forgotten sons would be not exactly mutations but actual handicaps such as being blind, having broken legs, deaf, and etc to be possibilities. Hell maybe if the Primarch didn't match the characteristics of being bulky and such (Like say being more skinny for agility and speed like an Elder) or potentially not developing the desired personalities (Such as someone who prefers to just be alone and/or doesn't want to wage war) being a possibility due to the fact that they simply weren't playing the roll they were intended for. This would be unlikely of reasons but still reasons whatsoever. Hell, even tho I'm 10,000 years old, I seem to have forgotten of those two...Wonder why... :/
Pyroskies You are 10,000 years old ?
BOB MARINE yes actually, I'm a perpetual. :P
Try an indeterminate amount of time! I'm Tzeentch!
Pyroskies What if one of the Primarchs hadn't been found by the Emperor? Or ended up on a Tomb World of the Necron race.
If a Primarch had never been found, then there would have been no Legion for them. They certainly wouldn't have a specific numbered legion, it would just amount to the Primarch themselves never being mentioned. But the reason there is a mystery is because 2 of the original 20 Space Marine LEGIONS that once existed and certainly once originally had a name are missing, not just random sons of the Emperor that were created but never again had contact with him.
If they either sided with or were wiped out by a Xenos race, it would have been after there was a whole legion of them.
They were probably DOA and the Emporer sent their legions over to the Ultramarines after discovering this.
Then why were their statues torn down?
Joe Cole The legions may never had a Primarch to begin with.
I only have a narrative for one of the lost primarchs. An entire legion of monk marines with a flexible type of ceramite. All would be psykers but would have an inherent gift to not risk the warp's perils, as their clarity and calm lets them use their powers to boost their bodies. From there, insert various martial art weapons getting the 40k treatment.
One of them, instead of landing on a planet, exited the warp inside a stomach. Upon his digestion, the Hive Mind was born...
Emperor open the PORTAL and send them to the place where they can't be found
LIKE IN FANTASY OR IN BERSERK?!!?!!!
I think it Fantasy
My theory (on who they were, not how they died): at least one of the Lost Primarchs was a naval specialist. As in, actual seagoing ships.
We have assault troopers, we have infiltrators, we have fast-moving bikers & siege-masters... The lack of a Legion that specializes in such an important and obvious form of warfare is otherwise baffling. Perhaps a Polynesian theme, with haka war chants and amphibious assault Rhinos? That would be badass!
An update you can add to this, the 2nd and 11th Legions are confirmed to have participated during the Rangdan xenocide.
The Regimental standard “Field dressing a Lasgun Wound” confirms this in an image of the guide.
Funnily enough i'll be talking about that in a future video about the deeds of the unknown Primarchs along with some other notes ;)
"They failed" could mean they just died before being found too. I'd like a lost primarch book about one of them that fell onto an advanced evil alien or chaos world and had to fight a guerilla war by himself, alone and unequipped, until he eventually went mad, made a mistake, and fell to the screaming hordes.
I don't believe this is the case though, do to it not being a reason to expunge the records.
It would make the primarchs seem venerable. Which for sure they didn't want.
Why is Omegon not brought up?
I mean, there are 19 Primarchs. Not 18.
nobody knows about Omegon, even he doesn't.
1:20 Leman Russ: You should spend more time beeing raised by the wolves
I was reading Fulgrim the Phoenician the other day, there Fulgrim meditates how his brothers even those found after him, don't consider him ready to take his legion out by themselves, he even comments on how the taciturn master of the second spoke against him despite him rarely doing so
What I found interesting was that whatever was said was negative and Fulgrim remembers a Terran saying of pots and kettles which makes me think that the second legion had some dirt on them already
Ngl, Malice being one of the lost primarchs sounds very interesting.
is Russ back, or is it just being speculated because Magnus is coming back and Russ would likely return for him?
Mouth he's still in the warp, although with cypher doing his thing I'd say the lion could be back perhaps, then against mortarion is also coming back
I'm only recently getting into warhammer lore. not a player but a big lore fan, I've been absorbing as much as I can and listening to horus heresy books
Mouth well essentially the story is moving forward, primarchs are coming back, the eye of terror is bigger and more and more things find human life quaint, the lore is pretty complicated cause there are very few confirmed things lorewise
One of them was born a girl, and Big E was all like "eh, no, not bothering finding that one, girls are icky".
The other was a ginger, and Big E was all like "eh, no, not bothering finding that one, gingers are icky".
I was looking for a comment like this
IMO the two primarchs did something that undermined the imperial creed. Maybe they started *gasp* cooperating with xenos and building a quite functional society that way, like the interex did. Or maybe one started using mutants in their society. The emperor would not want these stories coming out as they undermine his vision for a totally human galaxy.
One could be the giant in Baroque Power armour in Trazyn's museum. I forget actually where I read it, but there was a mention of the 2nd legion fighting Necrons during the crusade.
Now this is purely speculatory theory. What if the 2nd and 11th legions, the forgotten and the purged are the grey knights and the legion of the dammed respectively. As the knights where "forgotten" by humanity as a whole till the founding of the inquisition when they were discovered with a massively over filled chapter of battle brothers. And as for the 11th, the legion of the dammed are said to be ghostly warriors of flame that come only when astarties truely need them most then vanish without a trace once there task is completed, they could have been so corrupted by chaos in body that the emperor purged there bodies then preformed a ritual similar to the rubric to fuse their souls to their armor. This theory doesn't give us any information as to the identities or status of the lost prime-archs but it could make sense as to the reasons for these twos existence. I will do more research to try to find out if this is passable or not.
The very end was a bit incorrect. Sure, initially, the reason why the 2nd and 11th are unknown was to allow players to create their own legion. However, today the 'unknowness' is an integral part of the setting. Pitching your marines as being of the 2nd or 11th today is a bit like introducing your own Superhero and saying "He is just like Superman, except he is immune to kryptonite!"
No, people will not think that interesting or cool.
I think they formed a bond with Girlyman during that one really nasty campaign mentioned in book 7, however started showing signs of unstable mutation. I can see a possibility of one slowly turning to Khorne through the campaign, but some how I think that would have been mentioned some place.
I've noticed that by looking at the Alpha legion's symbol there is a three headed hydra. The "missing" primarchs could be the second and third primarchs of the Alpha Legion.
There is already two Primarchs, they are twins. There was originally 21 not 20.
@@andrewr880 technically you're right. But Alpha was made with one soul. Not two. So there's still only 20 primarchs.
I got a theory: that the lost primarc is alive even stil and is in a prison maze cunstructedby Perturabo
that could be possible.
That sounds like absolute bullshit
They fell in love with each other, and lived happily ever after.
I remember hearing a rumor once from a GW employee (in store not high up etc) that Dan Abbnet was given permission to answer the question of what happened to the two lost Primarchs but he couldn't come up with a satisfactory answer so the idea was killed off.
Gotta admit this rumor sounds plausible to me as anything other than perfection, which would be impossible for everyone, would be rejected and people would hate/be disappointed it.
i think their might be a chane ( and i say might be with massive air quotes ) the chances that the emperor simply send them away somewhere to wait untill the imperium needed them the most so they might just be waiting somewhere between stars
in the book legion towards the end the guy I think Natmajira said it would not be th first time a legion was to be judged for transgressions could be stuff like what angron and his legion did but who knows