Leaning into my recording days, once hearing the question my first thought, “must be using a stereo pair on the vocals” 😊 Great explanation of setup, Paul!
I remember listening to a symphony recording and studying the individual instruments location in the orchestra. There is a section where a soloist is playing and it's dead center, then his sound drifts slightly back and left. Drove me crazy. Then, I saw a video performance of the piece and the soloist is seated slightly left of center, but walks up to center during their solo, then back to their position in the main orchestra. I was so relieved that it wasn't some kind of error in my system.
Vocal "bleed" also happens with the other mics in the room (not only the guitar mics). It's mostly subtle but can nevertheless change your spatial perception of the singer's position in the soundstage.
Very insightful, and I bet it applies to most recordings. That’s why most commercial recordings are probably layered over several recording sessions where singer records their guitar first, then sing into the mono mike without moving head much. This makes complete sense for how final results sounds and why live concerts rarely sounds like a recorded version. Basically for the most part, soundstage on records is made up by the recording engineer, if I understood you correctly. Thank you!
Going back to my days decades ago living in Nashville and selling to studios. Pan controls on their consoles! That instead of just a single knob adjusting what level is sent to each channel for a pan control, the control should be a joy stick with delays included as the input is panned. So a pan to the right would not just reduce the level sent to the left channel, but delay it slightly as well. Being a 360 joystick, panning/ moving the object in the sound field, front back as well could be accomplished with the delays and reverb.
Exactly right, Paul 👍🏻- Don’t use iso on vocals, that sounds fake - In real world acoustic music you don’t put a singer’s head in a wedge. Same goes for winds, violins and violas. - I’ve heard a bit of iso on some of Octave’s recordings - don’t get me wrong - I love these recordings - but sometimes a bit less of iso, and you’ll notice that the musicians listens more into what the others are playing, and the recording may often sound more musically convincing.
Answers always lead to new questions. When applying room correction, is it possible for the increase or decrease in in db in either left or right to change the staging off center?
If it feels good do it 😅 Shawn Everett recorded Britanny Howard with a Neumann binaural head and her album is an amazing art piece. So if it feels good, do whatever 😂 ♥️
One of my biggest pet peeves on mixing of acoustic instruments is when the voices don't sound like they are in the same area as the instrument they are playing. Nickel Creek is horrible at this. I LOVE their music, but when Chris Thile's head sounds like it's dead center when he's singing, and the mandolin is WAY off to the left, all I can picture is him having a long rubber neck reaching over to the center mic while he's singing.
You should setup a few cameras and AI track every microphone and automatically adjust the pan of each microphone accordingly to the exact position in time. For the SInger you can track his face as well. As an Software Engineer I could help you with that but I am in germany ;) But you surely find someone else for that.
@@Fastvoice well it depends. I could developnsuch an application on an NVidia Jetson Nano (about 100$ to 200$) with any cheap webcam. The coding part needs some effort. But you'll surely find someone who just wants to do such things. The Integration into the fader systems could get tricky however.
@@Fastvoice But cost and effort besides. If the system don't work correctly all the time while the record is done, it could ruin your recordings. And I don't thing the risk is worth it. So it would have to be a very stable system wich would need a lot of testing and optimizing until you could safely use it. Therefore I think, it's not worth the hassle.
@@ForTN0X _"The Integration into the fader systems could get tricky however."_ AFAIK they record with an old analog Studer mixing desk without any automation. So it's about impossible.
@@Fastvoice I think I am just that kind of person. If I would have access to such a facility I would develop such a system just for my own pleasure to have realistic moving Objects and singers in my stereo soundstage.
Funny you say that, as I was watching I thought my problem most often is a stage left issue. but not all recordings. Very rarely if ever is it stage right for me. In a separate post I ask if it could be the application of room correction. Could it be a combination of both hearing and room correction that throws off the staging? The song "stereo" by The Cars on my system is a good example of correct center staging when the engineer is done throwing the sound left and right yet other artists are mostly left while a good portion are dead center. It's puzzling.
[rant] Tell me again what the "real" sound stage looks like that those fantastically imaging speakers are attempting to reproduce? IMHO there is nothing "natural" about a tight four piece group with a dozen microphones being panned to some imaginary positions on an imaginary sound stage. In that case there IS no actual original "sound stage" to carefully reproduce. Paul. you KNOW, deep down inside, that no matter how good it sounds when reproduced, it absolutely is not a high fidelity recreation of the original. It cannot be. That "original" in fact does not exist - the echos, reflections, phasing, and other interactions of the instruments with each other and the room simply do not, can not, exist in a close mic'd recording with multiple sources electronically "positioned" to suit the imagination of the guys at the console. [/rant] Sorry, just had to get that out of my system, Paul.
Semantics. A tightly grouped four-piece band in a live setting is separated by your brain seeing and processing each sound separately. a Good speaker will reproduce that "imaging" for you. if not, readjust your speakers or buy better ones. I will concede it is not an "exact" replication of the sound. It is however an attempt to replicate it. If you move around in a live music venue the sound will change. Is it not the correct sound because of where you were standing? A recording is a snap shot in time for sound and from a studio it's a positioning. I's real, and yet is different based on your location to the sound. It's no different than light going through a prism. Your relative position to the light is going to change the view of the light coming out. Diamonds and speakers do the same thing relative to light and sound. The better the quality, the better effect it has to take a source in and project it out in a pleasing way to the brain. Rainbows don't get seen going into a prism.
Partially correct we can only retrieve all the details from the media Analog defined as 1:1 of the recording for sure the sound does not live in expensive speakers or equipment . Access to modern power noise reduction and better ways of extraction of the media allows the push of all the micro detail further into the room 8-15 feet. Alan Blumlein: invented stereo EMI has those original demonstrations with 3 grand piano playing and you can distinguish each individually, Also multiple people walking across the front of a binaural microphone confirming left/right and even walking behind a curtain. My theory: Because Americans had fallen in love with Mono it's taken some time to appreciate the 1929 invention that was designed to recreate life size Soundstage.
Leaning into my recording days, once hearing the question my first thought, “must be using a stereo pair on the vocals” 😊 Great explanation of setup, Paul!
I remember listening to a symphony recording and studying the individual instruments location in the orchestra. There is a section where a soloist is playing and it's dead center, then his sound drifts slightly back and left. Drove me crazy. Then, I saw a video performance of the piece and the soloist is seated slightly left of center, but walks up to center during their solo, then back to their position in the main orchestra. I was so relieved that it wasn't some kind of error in my system.
Great explanation Paul, thanks!
Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles... Those cats need at least 4 mics to catch their vocals as they sway around.
That answers most of my questions.
Bravo Paul, perfectly explained 😎
Great question, great explanation
Vocal "bleed" also happens with the other mics in the room (not only the guitar mics). It's mostly subtle but can nevertheless change your spatial perception of the singer's position in the soundstage.
Thank you for that great explanation.
Very insightful, and I bet it applies to most recordings. That’s why most commercial recordings are probably layered over several recording sessions where singer records their guitar first, then sing into the mono mike without moving head much. This makes complete sense for how final results sounds and why live concerts rarely sounds like a recorded version. Basically for the most part, soundstage on records is made up by the recording engineer, if I understood you correctly. Thank you!
The mate just didn't considered that the recording was made in a live session, which is the way it usually happens at Octave Records
Going back to my days decades ago living in Nashville and selling to studios. Pan controls on their consoles! That instead of just a single knob adjusting what level is sent to each channel for a pan control, the control should be a joy stick with delays included as the input is panned. So a pan to the right would not just reduce the level sent to the left channel, but delay it slightly as well. Being a 360 joystick, panning/ moving the object in the sound field, front back as well could be accomplished with the delays and reverb.
At this point, you want surround bruh 😅
@@Ilove1073s Only as the channel pan.
Exactly right, Paul 👍🏻- Don’t use iso on vocals, that sounds fake - In real world acoustic music you don’t put a singer’s head in a wedge. Same goes for winds, violins and violas. - I’ve heard a bit of iso on some of Octave’s recordings - don’t get me wrong - I love these recordings - but sometimes a bit less of iso, and you’ll notice that the musicians listens more into what the others are playing, and the recording may often sound more musically convincing.
Which stereo techniques do you like for guitar? (ORTF, XY, Spaced Pair, Blumlein…)
Why not go direct to disk? i.e. A cutting lathe ??
Answers always lead to new questions. When applying room correction, is it possible for the increase or decrease in in db in either left or right to change the staging off center?
Even with cheap integrated amps you can adjust the level of each speaker in the settings menu.
@@Fastvoice I know its possible to adjust db. I am asking if the staging is thrown off center because of the increase or decrease in left or right?
@@bobr9605 Yes - you're altering the center location. That's also how panning faders (or knobs) work on a mixing desk.
That’s fascinating. How about posting the mic setup, so we can hear how well our systems resolve this.
The mic positions don't tell you that much because you don't know the position of the panning knob on the mixing desk for each mic.
If two mics add ambiance to the guitar, why not use stereo mics for the vocal too?
If it feels good do it 😅 Shawn Everett recorded Britanny Howard with a Neumann binaural head and her album is an amazing art piece. So if it feels good, do whatever 😂 ♥️
Sounds like you might have to break out the tape measure and make sure your speakers are symmetrical.
It's the singer that just can't stay put
Perhaps vocals should ALWAYS be recorded in the ISO room.
One of my biggest pet peeves on mixing of acoustic instruments is when the voices don't sound like they are in the same area as the instrument they are playing. Nickel Creek is horrible at this. I LOVE their music, but when Chris Thile's head sounds like it's dead center when he's singing, and the mandolin is WAY off to the left, all I can picture is him having a long rubber neck reaching over to the center mic while he's singing.
Simple answer, the performer moved slightly.
You should setup a few cameras and AI track every microphone and automatically adjust the pan of each microphone accordingly to the exact position in time. For the SInger you can track his face as well. As an Software Engineer I could help you with that but I am in germany ;) But you surely find someone else for that.
Octave Records is a low budget/no frills operation - so the cost/benefit ratio for such an effort would be way off I guess.
@@Fastvoice well it depends. I could developnsuch an application on an NVidia Jetson Nano (about 100$ to 200$) with any cheap webcam. The coding part needs some effort. But you'll surely find someone who just wants to do such things. The Integration into the fader systems could get tricky however.
@@Fastvoice But cost and effort besides. If the system don't work correctly all the time while the record is done, it could ruin your recordings. And I don't thing the risk is worth it. So it would have to be a very stable system wich would need a lot of testing and optimizing until you could safely use it. Therefore I think, it's not worth the hassle.
@@ForTN0X _"The Integration into the fader systems could get tricky however."_
AFAIK they record with an old analog Studer mixing desk without any automation. So it's about impossible.
@@Fastvoice I think I am just that kind of person. If I would have access to such a facility I would develop such a system just for my own pleasure to have realistic moving Objects and singers in my stereo soundstage.
I thought lead voices are slightly left of center to free up the mid-range for multiple instruments/tracks?
No, that's what EQ is for. Panning is for creating sound stage. If all your recordings have left of center vocals yo speakers need properly aligned. 😜
Maybe the listener's hearing is off-center?
Funny you say that, as I was watching I thought my problem most often is a stage left issue. but not all recordings. Very rarely if ever is it stage right for me. In a separate post I ask if it could be the application of room correction. Could it be a combination of both hearing and room correction that throws off the staging?
The song "stereo" by The Cars on my system is a good example of correct center staging when the engineer is done throwing the sound left and right yet other artists are mostly left while a good portion are dead center.
It's puzzling.
[rant]
Tell me again what the "real" sound stage looks like that those fantastically imaging speakers are attempting to reproduce?
IMHO there is nothing "natural" about a tight four piece group with a dozen microphones being panned to some imaginary positions on an imaginary sound stage. In that case there IS no actual original "sound stage" to carefully reproduce.
Paul. you KNOW, deep down inside, that no matter how good it sounds when reproduced, it absolutely is not a high fidelity recreation of the original. It cannot be. That "original" in fact does not exist - the echos, reflections, phasing, and other interactions of the instruments with each other and the room simply do not, can not, exist in a close mic'd recording with multiple sources electronically "positioned" to suit the imagination of the guys at the console.
[/rant]
Sorry, just had to get that out of my system, Paul.
You need counseling.
Live music and recorded music are two different art forms.
Semantics.
A tightly grouped four-piece band in a live setting is separated by your brain seeing and processing each sound separately. a Good speaker will reproduce that "imaging" for you. if not, readjust your speakers or buy better ones.
I will concede it is not an "exact" replication of the sound. It is however an attempt to replicate it. If you move around in a live music venue the sound will change. Is it not the correct sound because of where you were standing? A recording is a snap shot in time for sound and from a studio it's a positioning. I's real, and yet is different based on your location to the sound.
It's no different than light going through a prism. Your relative position to the light is going to change the view of the light coming out. Diamonds and speakers do the same thing relative to light and sound. The better the quality, the better effect it has to take a source in and project it out in a pleasing way to the brain. Rainbows don't get seen going into a prism.
Partially correct we can only retrieve all the details from the media Analog defined as 1:1 of the recording for sure the sound does not live in expensive speakers or equipment .
Access to modern power noise reduction and better ways of extraction of the media allows the push of all the micro detail further into the room 8-15 feet.
Alan Blumlein: invented stereo EMI has those original demonstrations with 3 grand piano playing and you can distinguish each individually, Also multiple people walking across the front of a binaural microphone confirming left/right and even walking behind a curtain.
My theory: Because Americans had fallen in love with Mono it's taken some time to appreciate the 1929 invention that was designed to recreate life size Soundstage.