Ep153: Was Mormonism an Accident? How the Missing 116 Pages Changed Everything
Вставка
- Опубліковано 29 кві 2024
- On this episode of Mormonish Podcast, Rebecca and Landon are joined again by our good friend Ganesh Cherian to discuss the orgin of Mormonism and the LDS church.
Using clues and markers from the replacement text for the missing 116 pages, Ganesh provides some really intriguing information regarding
the actual timeline of Book of Mormon composition and the formation of the early Church of Christ, later known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
The clues to the actual origin of the LDS church that are held within the replacement text, paint a very different picture of the early organization of the church. Including who God chose to lead the church!
We learned so much from our discussion with Ganesh and we know you will too!
Previous Mormonish Podcast episode with Ganesh
• Ep136: The Allegory of...
***How to DONATE to Mormonish Podcast:
If you would like to help financially support our podcast, you can DONATE to support Mormonish Podcast here:
www.mormonishpodcast.org/support
Also at: PayPal: paypal.me/BiblioTechMedia?cou...
Venmo: @BiblioTechMedia
***WE HAVE MERCH! *** If you’d like to purchase Mormonish Merch, you can visit our Merch store here: www.etsy.com/shop/mormonishmerch
We appreciate our Mormonish viewers and listeners so much!
Don't forget to LIKE and SUBSCRIBE to Mormonish Podcast!
Contact Mormonish Podcast: mormonishpodcast@gmail.com
This is one of the best videos on the UA-cam platform that analyzes Mormon history. This was absolutely brilliant
That is high praise - Thank you! Ganesh
Epic. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.
Brilliant episode! The text does indeed reveal so much of the backstory. And so ironic that Lucy Harris, abused wife of gullible Martin, unadvertently helped cause the founding of the Church of Christ instead of revealing Jospeh Smith Jr as a fraud & pretender. Life is strange, happenstance determines much more that most people realize.
Yeah I think about that a lot. Kind of like the backfire effect.
Yes, and somehow Joe Smith’s folly is now worth well over 100 billion USD.
Initially I thought smith could’ve applied some rock in a hat pressure at the Harris home but this worked out better, but at what cost. Smith was paranoid of those lost pages turning up.
Another confirming evidence of Mosiah Priority is that in the original Book of Mormon manuscript John Whitmer served as scribe during part of first Nephi. As Ganesh correctly points out, the translation didn't move to the Whitmer farm till the final month, so first Nephi could not have been written before that.
Great point!
Why didnt he find them with his seet stone???😅
My Book of Mormon Professor (1985) said those misstatements in the BOM were “Mormon’s Eraser” because it wasn’t possible to correct on Gold plates. I bought it!
Hadn’t heard that one before!
Not correct, but -strike through- should be easy.
I heard the same thing, and I only graduated a year ago!
I wonder if God was offended when they changed the name of the Church from the original Church of Christ🤔
He seems to get offended a lot!
I feel the tendency for longer and longer church names is reflected in Nelson's recent tendency to build taller and taller steeples.
Very interesting & enlightening episode R & L, Ganesh is brilliant at his work.
Big Hugs!
Excellent analysis, thank you for bringing it to us
Ganesh remains a faithful member of the church, because the fact that a religion inspired by Joseph Smith that attracted so many people is actually even more fascinating. He is finding meaning and a better understanding of the mind of Joseph Smith. I love it!
Our religion would probably be better if the narrative was about searching for meaning vs seeking "Truth", because it's the truth claims that is so harmful to the church and it's members.
I love this! - you get me. Ganesh
WONDERFUL EPISODE! I LOVE Ganesh's mind! Lol! He gets it!
Thanks Rob. - So interesting when you look at the Book of Mormon as performance.... so many thinks make much more sense.
I absolutely love this episode! You guys are producing such valuable content
The whopper that was believed.
I. Was raised a Baptist. Accepted virgin birth. Have 1 ? Who does not? Ok
And how did isaiah jump into the book of mormon
Endless sex slaves for eternity and God of your own planet? What man could resist? Mohammed and Islam has NOTHING to offer compared to Joseph Smith Jr. and Mormonism.
That’s true.
@@marquitaarmstrong399 Are your comments referring to the original post? I don't think so. What I instead think is that for the ten thousandth time you refer to something in the video without providing time codes. Stop this, Marquita!
So intriguing!
Excellent information thank you.
You are very welcome - Ganesh
Love the mic Rebecca
It was Mike Quinn i was thinking of, sorry about that Brent. Great podcast 😊
Nevermo faithful papist here: has this guy been exposed to exmo/counter-mo material - like - AT ALL. 10 out of 10 for originality-free scholarship. Dude.
*Scholarship* obviously meant in the “make presentation lower-middle management sense
Was about to make the same comment - the realized I did. This guy is profoundly unoriginal- does he know that the sources he cribs have been read by more than a dozen or so other people?
MORMONS MISUNDERSTANDING OF:
"STICK OF JOSEPH, STICK OF JUDAH"
You assume that the "Stick of Judah" is the Bible, while the "Stick of Joseph" is the Book of Mormon.
In the latter days, the two have been joined together, forming the bulk of Mormon scripture. Mormonism's literal interpretation of scripture does not extend to hundreds of passages it rejects as corrupted or that it skews its own purposes. In the case of Ezekiel 37, Mormons not only neglect the plain sense of the words, but also ignore there true interpretation, given by God--in the very same chapter first, the Hebrew term translated as "stick" (aits) is never use anywhere in the Old Testament to mean "book," "scroll," "writing" or anything similar. It is various translated as "wood", or "branch", "timber", or "tree."
Needless to say, the Book of Mormon was allegedly written on plates, not scrolls or sticks.
Second, the correct interpretation of this symbolic action of the prophet is given just a few verses later. Ezekiel is to take the sticks, put them end to end and hold the joined ends in His hand.
He thus displays to the people a "single" Stick, once again united. This is to show that the scattered remnants of the southern kingdom (Judah) and the northern kingdom of Israel ("Joseph") will be returned from exiled, restored to their land, and made one nation again.
"They shall be no more twi nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all" (Ezekiel 37:22) with Divine impetus, Ezekiel first spoke of this parable of redemption then enacted it. Only Mormonism can manage to mistake "timber" for "scrolls" and "nations" for "metal plates."
As the text makes clear, this is a prophecy of national reunification, not about the appearance of hidden scriptures.
Yes agreed. The reference was to how Joseph presented it to the Whitmers and in the Book of Mormon. A careful reading of Ezekial does not support this.
@@cheery2100What I do see is that while the author of the Book of Mormon often draws silly conclusions from the text, he did know the Bible inside out to make such references. Most if not all Mormon doctrines are based on weird reinterpretations of obscure Bible verses, which means that the author did study the Bible regularly and picked up these loose ends throughout the whole Bible. So if all ideas are indeed from Joseph, he must have been a real diligent student of the bible to pick up these verses.
@@charlesmendeley9823 There is some understanding that many of these biblical oddities were things pointed out in Adam Clarkes commentary and which Joseph may well have gleaned from there. (It has been proven that the JST was heavily reliant on Adam Clarkes commentary)
Love you Mormons 🤩 ❤
The number of times this guy just pauses for just Long enough that i think i lost my WiFi connection….
Probably a result of the us/New Zealand delay on their call
You people really need to read How the book of mormon came to pass
We just interviewed Lars and did a whole episode on it last week. Check it out on our channel.
@mormonishpodcast1036 yes but did you read it?
25:13 25:13 25:13 25:13 25:15 25:55 26:26 26:36 26:36 26:37 28:27 28:27 28:27 28:43 28:50 29:06 29:18 29:59 @@mormonishpodcast1036
@@jordanott5464It will be quite a challenge to merge both theories, as this video heavily discussed the oral creation process, where Joseph started with chapter heads and created whole chapters on the fly, while in the Spalding-Rigdon theory, there was an original manuscript. The interesting part is also how the replacement text contains lots of parallels to Joseph's life, which makes no sense if this part was also written by Rigdon. The only merger I see is if Joseph receives a draft by Rigdon, which is not much more detailed than the outline head structure, and then recreates the whole text through his own imagination.
I have some explosive information to share with you regarding a point Ganesh made on last night's podcast. What is the best way to submit that to you?
mormonishpodcast@gmail.com
I ♥ Uncle Jesse
Q: did the smiths move because of Fanny Alger? it when was the timrfreme w fanny alger?
No. Fanny Alger was much later (1834). Joseph, Emma and Oliver moved from Emma's parents farm (Harmony, PA) to the Whitmer residence (Fayette, NY) on 1 June 1829 due to 'persecution'. Effectively they were getting a lot of push back from the family (and wider community) with the production of the Book of Mormon. - Ganesh
I would hardly compare Joseph Smith with Chad Daybell -- especially when you consider motive and intention.
Both had affairs and ordered hits. Though I would label Chad as worse for the excessive number of murders, including of children.
One comment about the shift between wherefore and therefore. The presentation of the facts was brilliant, but I am not convinced by the conclusions. According to Lars Nielsen, later dictations by Joseph revert back to "therefore", which makes no sense under this theory. I rather feel that these differences prove more than one person was involved, or that the process changed significantly. I'd like to see further studies taking this into account. (Quote: "For example, in The Book of Abraham, which Smith unquestionably wrote himself (without any preliminary texts from Rigdon), wherefore is absolutely absent while therefore appears eighteen times." How the BoM came to pass, Chapter 19)
Haven't read Lars Neilson's book yet, but Brent Metcalfe in his book also showed that the therefore/wherefore progression was present in the D&C sections that cover the Book of Mormon dictation timeframe, giving another strong witness that it was Joseph and no one else. - Ganesh
There are a lot of things that happen that look like "Accidents" that the Lord really had a hand in. Joseph Smith, himself, said that Mormonism embraces all truth. I think Joseph Smith had plenty of weaknesses. He told the saints that they must not consider him a righteous man. So, he had his good points and his bad points. He was told that his name would be held for good and evil. The problem is most people either totally hold his name for good, or totally hold his name for evil. The truth is he was somewhere in the middle. I take the good and leave the bad. The same as I do with any other man.
I think that is wise. Joseph was exceptionally problematic!
Do you think the information presented in this episode is consistent with Lars Nielsen's theory? Lars suggests that it was scripted but here it is suggested that it was not. Also this episode suggests that the scribes were not part of the deception.
Lars suggest a multiple person creation of the Book of Mormon. I cant see that supported in the text..... from the textual evidence the Book of Mormon suggests a sole author creation with unwitting contributions by scribes and related persons.
@@cheery2100 OTOH, how do we deal with the testimony by people who saw both works that the BOM is almost the same as Solomon Spalding's unpublished novel "Manuscript Found?"
If Mosiah was dictated first, why is it that the book of Mosiah opens with references to Nephi? Was Mosh 1 tacked on later?
Mosiah was the first book to be dictated when the project resumed in 1829, it references Nephi because he was a main character in the lost manuscript (Book of Lehi) - Ganesh
@@cheery2100 Ok, that makes sense. Thanks
Is this an old podcast because Ganesh mentions speaking to Brent am I misunderstanding what has been said because I'm sure that Brent Metcalfe had died.
I don’t think Brent Medcalfe has died.
Brent Metcalfe is very much alive.... he watched the video. :)
Not dead
Ganesh just talked to Brent Metcalfe so unless Brent is a Chad and Lori Daybell Zombie he is very much alive!
Maybe you’re confusing Brent Metcalfe with D. Michael Quinn?
This was an interesting presentation. It gives us a lot to chew on. We should weigh this evidence along with all the other evidence, then keep searching for more. Rebecca gives the impression that she is buying this wholesale. I hope that she isn't.
Mormons, for the most part have no idea how revelation is received. It does not come out of the blue. It addresses real people, real situations, real events, and real needs and desires. This is abundantly explained in the scriptures, and especially in the D&C. The problem may be to the false teachings and false expectations of the LDS church.
Revelations are not given unbidden. The Lord tells us to Seek, Ask, and Knock. This is a law of heaven, and a principle that you can follow, like a formula. The Book of Mormon teaches us how to pray and receive revelation. The revelations that Lehi and Nephi received, for example, for not to satisfy narcissistic whims, as Rebecca implied, but answered real needs.
I can say this with confidence because I have been a lifelong student of the scriptures, and a lifelong student of the Lord. Over my lifetime, I have received thousands of pages of revelations, most of which came from sincere questions, and desires for help. They are always related to contemporary situations in my life. The Lord uses dreams, visions, revelations, angels, and real life situation to teach us, and when needed, drive us to our knees.
I suppose you wouldn't have noticed this if you were only looking for evidence that the B&M is a fraud.
You claim it doesn't teach the fullness of the Gospel and then equal all of Mormonism with the Gospel. If you throw out Section 132 with its suspicious origins, along with Polygamy and Adam-God, the Gospel very consistent across all of the Standard Works. The Book of Mormon teaches you all that you need to know to come to Christ, receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, like the people of King Benjamin and the Lamanites, receive the second comforter, and receive all the experiences of Joseph Smith, Moses, or any of the people in the Book of Mormon. I speak from experience.
The translation of the BofM did not take place real time in front of the Whitmers, but David Whitmer did attest to seeing Joseph use a seerstone and a hat. I don't know if even Joseph realized this, but based on my experiences with revelation, he and Oliver received it directly from the Lord. I don't believe in the gold plates, or any of that backstory. I think Joseph just created that to whip up interest. The 11 witnesses saw the plates and the angel in vision. In the revelation, the Lord told Joseph true gospel teachings, wrapped up in an interesting narrative, much like the Bible.
I wasn't surprised or shocked with the disclosure about Oliver Cowdery. If you read the 1832 account of the First Vision that was hidden and suppressed by Joseph Fielding Smith, you would know that Oliver had a vision of the gold plates, before he even met Joseph Smith. And, if you read the Book of Commandments and compared it with the 1835 D&C, you would note the obvious changes to the status of Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith. Oliver received a couple of other revelations, too. But these were changed and suppressed by Joseph Smith. (Seems to be a family trait.)
What is interesting and significant to me is that Oliver received those revelations without ever consulting or needing the Urim and Thummin, or any other artifact. History has really given him a raw deal, and I think the reason why was because he was honest and also hated polygamy.
Totally confused what you’re trying to say?
Basically - Joseph created the book of Mormon this is how he did it, and this is how you can tell. - Ganesh
People need to realize these are all theories. Therefore/wherefore shifted in frequency in the text. Does that mean Joseph is changing language based on the people he's around? It could, but there is absolutely no way to prove that. It's all speculation based on interpreter's bias. The only thing it proves is that the usage of those words changed. Someone who interprets the creation of the BoM as being true can interpret these changes as evidence of the evolution of the language used by the Nephites themselves. The translation being more accurate for Wherefore rather than Therefore. All of these are pure speculation.
They are more than speculation. They are theories with proof to justify them. A theory must be posited and proven to have weight and it will change overtime but it will become evident as various theories are discarded and others gain favor the methods used. The reason this is so difficult is not because it is divine..it is because there are no source documents which alone should be a red flag to authenticity.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 "Proof" is very strong word. You have no "proof" for what you present here. You have evidence that YOU believe supports your theory, but that is far from proof. I posited a theory at the end of my first comment using your same evidence. Did I prove my theory then? Don't contribute to the death of these scientific words. They have meaning.
You are absolutely right, this is a theory. The question is does the evidence fit? and can this understanding explain other anomalies in the text? - I guess everyone has to evaluate and decide for themselves. Hopefully this presentation is compelling enough that people will consider, test it, and hopefully find additional evidence.
Mosiah priority has gone from a theory to the dominant accepted understanding as other information and evidence has been evaluated in light of the proposal. :) - Ganesh
@@cheery2100 Well which is it, a theory or a "dominant understanding", whatever that is? The only thing you can do about if Joseph changed his language to match the people he lived with is speculate.
@@Man-jf6lz Its not just his language that changed, it's also his theology. The whole scope of the Book of Mormon changed. The official narrative is that the Book of Mormon was the pre-cursor to the establishment of the church. The text & theology developments inline with the dictation sequence tells a completely different story! I think I have done a compelling deconstruction that explains this anomaly. 🙂
This brother knows too much... 🤔
Ganesh is pretty sharp!
@@mormonishpodcast1036Indeed. I'd hate for him to get his translation audience timeline together with Reels language analyst and compare the 3 voices with it. Might not end well for me...
Here are some other examples of corrections of changes to the text:
Corrections from 3 Nephi
Changes to the Three Nephites
3 Nephi 28:15 And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God.
3 Nephi 28:37 But behold, since I wrote, I have inquired of the Lord, and he hath made it manifest unto me that there must needs be a change wrought upon their bodies, or else it needs be that they must taste of death;
3 Nephi 28:38 Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a change wrought upon their bodies, that they might not suffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world.
3 Nephi 28:39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.
3 Nephi 28:40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell eternally in the heavens.
What Jesus said to the twelve
3 Nephi 18:36 And it came to pass that when Jesus had made an end of these sayings, he touched with his hand the disciples whom he had chosen, one by one, even until he had touched them all, and spake unto them as he touched them.
3 Nephi 18:37 And the multitude heard not the words which he spake, therefore they did not bear record; but the disciples bare record that he gave them power to give the Holy Ghost. And I will show unto you hereafter that this record is true.
Moroni 2:1 The words of Christ, which he spake unto his disciples, the twelve whom he had chosen, as he laid his hands upon them--
Moroni 2:2 And he called them by name, saying: Ye shall call on the Father in my name, in mighty prayer; and after ye have done this ye shall have power that to him upon whom ye shall lay your hands, ye shall give the Holy Ghost; and in my name shall ye give it, for thus do mine apostles.
Moroni 2:3 Now Christ spake these words unto them at the time of his first appearing; and the multitude heard it not, but the disciples heard it; and on as many as they laid their hands, fell the Holy Ghost.
Yes! Seems that Joseph had an idea that he spoke and then someone (possibly Oliver has corrected or enlightened him or there is a reason to change) and so he needs to make corrections and updates in the text.
We see this with conversion - in Mosiah 4: Joseph puts forward a 'born again' belief but when Oliver comes to scribe he advocates Baptism which enters the text in Mosiah 18. This is expanded in 3 Nephi 18 & 19 and added to with 1 Nephi 31 and cemented with Moroni 2.2
Mosiah 4:8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you. [believe and holy ghost cleansed]
Mosiah 18:13 I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead
18:19 And he commanded them that they should teach nothing save it were the things which he had taught, and which had been spoken by the mouth of the holy prophets.
[believe, baptized, holy ghost]
3 Nephi 19:13 And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
3 Nephi 18:13 But whoso among you shall do more or less than these are not built upon my rock,
[believe, baptized wrote prayer, holy ghost, sacrament]
2 Nephi 31:13 witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism-yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost;
[Believe, baptized as Christ was baptized, holy Ghost
Moroni 2:2 after ye have done this ye shall have power that to him upon whom ye shall lay your hands, ye shall give the Holy Ghost
[Believe, baptized wrote prayer, holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, Sacrament, record names]
The goalposts are moving.... as the dictation sequence goes on... as the audience changes and influences the outcome - Ganesh
One thing that would make the podcast better is to eliminate the fake laughing. Its a huge annoyance.
There is no fake laughter in this episode. This is who we are we enjoy discussing these issues. We enjoy having fun exploring these items, that is our podcast and we have no intentions of doing this while not enjoying ourselves but thank you for the comment.
What matters what phases and words used when? I keep a diary of my daily life! Then I keep a notebook where I write special thoughts and events, the more spiritual things of my life! I have always thought this comparable to the small plates of Nephi! You folks basically believe Joseph wrote the Book of Mormon Right! Guess this is why you’re all tied up in why he changes words etc! Goodness, goodness how you folks have to put so much effort into trying to show just how Joseph wrote what when! Just your trying to tie infant baptism put in book of Mormon to ease Emma’s pain plus all the following examples your trying to tie his messages to what’s going on in his life is the biggest stretch I believe I’ve ever seen from you folks! Goodness ! How much effort and time to prove your points! Work on! Work on! Love you anyway!
I believe in Joseph SMith i choose to believe he was good! And as prophecy was told his “name should be had for good and evil among all nations." Even if he did start polygamy (some say Brigham young started it) i'm ok with it cuz it was in the Bible. Then you have the book of mormon wich does have good smart stories.... Nephi's story of the tree of life Chirst LOVE! And Jacob 5 the aligory of the olive tree, even Jews admit its a good story! I've done my research drawing two conclusion. (excluding current LDS leaders) 1. that Joseph Smith was a con and bad and looked at all the things CES letter, etc. And 2. Joseph Smith was good and inspired by God. In my research considering all the good in the book of mormon Joe Smith giving Blacks the priesthood, starting the relief society for women (one of the first to give women rights and responsibility in the christian faith! He started the "word of wisdom" wich is smart (NOT how our current leaders abuse it). Plus every Quote Joseph says is good and SMART! look them UP! I am so DISAPPOINTED in our current LEADERS!! They are lost in the LAW with judging shaming & disciplining the sinner! The sinner needs HELP not SHAME!
Modern Mormonism is only loosely based on early Mormonism. Just one point to make this clear. Nauvoo Mormonism was closely tied to Freemasonry, with 1492 men becoming Freemasons under the lead of Hyrum. One of the reasons regular Freemasons disliked mormons was that this rapid pace of making non-Masons into Master Masons was against the formalities of Masonry. Early Mormonism was full of Masonic symbols and lore (e.g. the Hill Cumorah narrative is plagiarized from Freemasonry), including the temple ceremony. The Modern church has lost this connection, while in my opinion all general authorities should be master Masons to understand the deep symbolism behind Mormonism.
"Joe Smith giving Blacks the priesthood" - you know don't you that this did not happen until the 1970s, so I don't see how JS could have had anything to do with it.
Joseph modeled the Relief Society after Freemasonry. It is a female Masonic order. I recommend reading "Method Infinite".
You're wrong you don't know how many pages were lost and it wasn't replaced it was further work that he translated.
🤦
1) it's well documented that there were 116 pages lost by Martin Harris and
2) Its all made up.
@@3thingsfishing427 Well said! There’s not much more you can do or say when you see so clearly the wide open field members allow for the mind numbing apologetics. So simply putting your head in your hands in disbelief is all you can muster. I’ve got some ocean front property in Arizona. If they’ll buy that, I’ll throw the Golden Gate in free. (George Strait)
@@3thingsfishing427 Well said.
Do you believe our Earth is flat or spherical?