Designing an Underwater Temple That Doesn't Suck | Design Delve
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- Опубліковано 23 лис 2023
- JM8 speaks with Sabotage Studio's Thierry Boulanger, Creative Director of Sea of Stars, about how to design an underwater template that doesn't suck.
From the team behind The Escapist, we're excited to introduce you to our new employee-owned and fully independent outlet, Second Wind.
Support us on Patreon: / secondwindgroup - Ігри
Our channel is entirely supported by your kind donations so if you want to see more of this weird content check out the link: www.patreon.com/SecondWindGroup
Really hope you enjoyed this episode gang :D With the surge of new viewers to the show we'll be remastering some past episodes with the new style while simultaneously working on brand new episodes for the new year. If you are or know of any devs that might be interested in an interview in the Design Mines hit me up on Twitter!
One thing to help underwater design got "used" in subnautica. The amount of time and depth need to progress as the game does. If you have to "hard" code it with nested if than statements than you clear those statements by zone(I had to use nested if than statements in the USN. So I know that is both the easiest way to do it however being the least effective.). Next thing since your game is horror, light and combat have to be addressed. Do you want you player to be able to kill the Horror or do they have to stun and run? Speed underwater also has ALOT of issues. As to fast and you feel like your losing control; to slow and you feel ineffective. All that and I haven't played the game lol. The moment you play ANY game the biggest issues show up. Here is how that is solved. Give a member of your team that is NOT involved in that area to test it(I.E. Have a sound designer play that section and make notes on everything except sound. Graphics designer same make notes on everything but the graphics. and so on). Doing so fixes issue quickly especially with a small team.
JM8, I hope you don't mind a question about The Bog:
Are you guys mindful of Rain World's design? That seems like something you might get compared to a fair bit.
Sure would be nice to list the music used in this video with time stamps.
The second I can afford it, you'll have my support.
So I'm wondering what y'all are going to rebrand yourself as when "Second Wind" gets a little long in the tooth. I mean it's a good name for now, but it's so tied to the drama that it was formed under that eventually, when you establish your own brand, do you still want a name tied to that drama? (Or maybe that will still be viable to drive viewer support to remind them of your "screw the man" roots, even after you get a marketing director who manages to secure y'all a steady paycheck through advertising deals.)
You know what I would find delicious? If you mange to buy "The Escapist" branding for a song after whoever owns it now has to sell their second country club and is starting to feel hungry.
Its honestly so funny (and a little inspiring) how after the split from the Escapist I've seen so many comments that say "i used to just watch ZP but now that Second Wind has started I've tried out the other content and its amazing!" and that includes myself! Its goddamn incredible how somehow a corporate blunder can propel the creators it initially harmed even further into success! I wish everyone on the Second Wind team good luck on their journey, I most certainly will be keeping a close eye on it from here on out.
Nailed it on the head!
Just goes to show they they were firing people over not meeting quotas that they could’ve been meeting had they managed the content better
Employee owned businesses mean the employee’s work is valued and doesn’t just go to the executives. Every company, especially creative ones, should run like this.
It’s definitely a good sign. I was just about to ask where the latest cold take was, because I just realized it wasn’t here this week. Cold take. Not ZP.
I think SW has a good thing going here
I was already branching out into their other content before the split but now I’m checking out everything they put out there
I think the biggest problem with water levels is how the developers mainly focus on how the water can hinder the player instead of how it can benefit the player. Also, no one ever said a water level had to be completely underwater. For example, when people think of swamps and bogs, the first thing that comes to mind for devs is mud slowing movement. On the flip side, for a stealth game, a swamp/bog can instead be the perfect natural camouflage with its naturally tall flora, the din of insects, and the long shadows cast by the tall flora. Combined with a high enough water level where the player can still walk, you've got a great stealth area. But this can also be used to hide wildlife that thrives in those areas. Things like snakes and alligators/crocodiles and now I just realized I'm listing how good Metal Gear Solid 3 is.
This is also a good way to point towards some of the decent applications it gets in horror, like Resident Evil 4-5. The segment on the lake in RE4 is basically burned into the brain of every person who played it, everywhere from the anticipation from first seeing the boss to the zany boat ride actually fighting it, and its early enough in the game to avoid feeling basic or tacked on. RE5, ignoring the 'questionable' ways they handled the humanoid elements, gave you a section of walkable deep water you 'wanted' to move slowly across, due to the gators hiding just under the surface. I'd mention other scenarios like the shark from RE1, but the infinite grenade launcher of the Gamecube remake kinda broke perspective on how that was handled.
This makes me really want to see a custom level for theif set in a swamp!
those are good ideas
(making more games like mgs3, that is)
The first time I thought about this point about water hindering instead of benefitting was a video pointing out that water in Shovel Knight makes you jump higher. The second time I realized the potential of that formula was on a Frog Mario level in Super Mario Maker 2 where you had to swim through a short labyrinth while a wall of enemies was chasing you. Frog Mario has very tight controls, so this race was very interesting.
Just because the setting is underwater does not mean the player needs to constantly be fighting the water or be swimming in it. Case in point, Bioshock
I think it's a triple whammy: They're usually slower than the base game, Darker (causing navigational annoyance), and finally they're usually later in the game so they're among the more difficult areas.
I think just making the character swim really fast would alleviate a lot of hate towards many of the water levels.
There's also a lot of liquidating of skills, abilities, and playstyle, and bottlenecking that into "the water level" playstyle. You rarely gain any applicable skills to the game that comes after, and only the most basic skills translate into the water level.
Also, breath mechanics usually just bring the game down.
If you've played Fallout New Vegas, you know that part of Dead Money, where you have the bomb collar, you walk into an area, it starts beeping, and you realize you have like 3 seconds to find the thing the developer hid behind a desk or around a corner somewhere before you die?
The part of Dead Money that makes it usually the most hated of the DLC?
Breath mechanics are just that, except 3 seconds is stretched into like 30, but you move appropriately slower, over larger areas. You find the spot where the developer intended you to refill, or you die. You have to stop, break your immersion, and figure out what the developers wanted you to do. It pushes you into thinking about how the game was made on a mechanical level, instead of just playing the level.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 The latter part about breath mechanics is part of why hearing the _Sonic_ drowning theme still instantly triggers dread in so many people. To say nothing of the first water level in the series being a literal labrynith.
Pure speed would just make navigation even more disorienting! It'd also require a clarity of view (not dark or cramped) and a camera that suits that increased motion. But forsaking dark and cramped loses the atmsopheric intent. There's no single element that can be adjusted here - the conceptual "Water Temple Dungeon" needs multiple facets tuned to prevent frustration!
Or like they did in Subnautica, give you a dive scooter to help.
Spyro 3 had some good water levels because he was faster underwater than a normal charge, but it still felt like a normal extension of his charge ability. There was a little disorientation due to the 3d nature, but they used very obvious landmarks like a pirate ship or giant seashells to orient you to where you were in space
I just have to say, all of Ludo's little background idle animations are freaking adorable. The extra effort that goes into bringing her to life instead of just being a background prop is really the cherry on top of an already great series.
Thank you so much
I recommend Ultrakill for good water level examples. Your mobility is increased, instead of decreased, underwater. Furthermore, each water level in the "water chapter" works with water completely differently.
CHALLENGE
DON'T TOUCH ANY WATER
@@ConsarnitTokkori "Don't touch any WHAT?" -Max0r
SOO much this.
I was about to comment this, lmao. Underwater sections in Ultrakill are basically just low gravity with the added bonuses that the whiplash doesn't build up hard damage and rockets never run out of fuel. I think it's kind of genius that the level with the most amount of underwater arenas comes right after the level that introduces the whiplash. I also love how every level with at least one underwater section has the challenge "don't touch any water".
@@lonelyshpee7873 clearly, you haven't played 0-1 smh
I know it's probably been mentioned (and not fair since it's a water based game) but subnautica does water really well. You almost feel sluggish if you're not in the water but it's not hindering. Also the depths can be terrifying.
Great ep.
Yes, but I think subnautica doesn't really count here. Subnautica was built from the ground up to be a water game, where most of these games with bad water levels are just that. It's experiencing the water as an afterthought in a game designed in its other 95% to be on land. Actually, subnautica reinvents this problem as you said so yourself. Being on land in subnautica feels absolutely awful.
Yeah agreed
I was an engineer on subnautica! As you fairly point out, the land sections don’t feel great. And it’s mainly cuz the team didn’t spend much effort on it. I will say though, it didn’t take much to make the swimming feel good. We just didn’t do anything much to make it “realistic” - that’s what usually kills. We added a slight amount of momentum to the movement, but consciously avoided too much which would’ve made it feel sluggish.
@@stevesan
Oh gosh a Subnautica dev? I want to say, the Seamoth is hands down one of the best feeling vehicles I've used in a videogame. It moves exactly how it seems like it "should", in my head.
I really missed it in the sequel because it felt SO GOOD to ride around. I literally would have actually moments where I'd been rushing between my bases or fetching materials in the Seamoth and would genuinely be thinking to myself "this feels good to drive". I'd be enjoying it, and noticing myself enjoying it, and just feeling this pleasure at controlling it, even on utility trips.
I just wanted y'all to know your work on that thing is fully appreciated.
@@grigorigahan Yeah, but since the game he was working on is also exclusively water-based, it does feel like there might be some insights from games like Subnautica. I do think the nature of the game as a 2D platformer makes it quite a bit different, though. Maybe something like Rain World could help?
This is a cool episode. Love that you brought in another experienced dev to interview and still managed to keep it within the 'lore' of your show. I can really see JM8 becoming one of my favorite UA-cam essayist channels
I truly appreciate how calm and sincere this series is, it's so quiet and friendly. Whenever episodes hit, it's just the mood I need.
This isn’t something I ever considered when I create them but hot dahm do I see it now! Vibe locked in.
Personally for me, Majora's mask was the first game with a water level that felt really good, and I think it's just because the Zoras mask worked well to make the water areas feel like opportunities to be more agile rather than a punishing area where you move slower, as most hated water areas do.
I was coming to the comments to say the same thing. Similar to Terry's point in the video, you want the game to be done before the player is. The movement and freedom of traversal as a Zora was done WAY before I was over that feeling of freedom and swiftness of movement.
one of the major problems with water levels is they often decide to pair the two most obvious uses of water mechanics together, and both of them work in conflict. Either you do a dungeon with focus on the fact that your movement is now slower and less intuitive, or you do one centred around big moving parts that shift the level and require a lot of exploration to figure out what goes where. Saying it out loud, it seems obvious not to pair the both, and yet water dungeons so often do.
Sea of Stars did a great job, but it also has a lot of advantages in both being isometric and 2d- the movement and combat in the water is completely unchanged from the land, so working out the dungeon systems works feels fun and not a chore. I feel like solving this issue in, say, a 3d Zelda-like title, would require a lot more work and consideration. It also makes me think- well, why not do a sky level instead? One solution, I suppose, would be to make swimming mechanics more fluid and maybe even preferable to being on land- give the character a boost while you're asking them to get around a giant machine, and instead of getting around being a chore, it might be more an excuse to play with a temporary superpower
So happy the Escapist implosion have led to more people discovering your great videos. I've always found them really interesting and they make me look at the games I play differently.
This is wonderful to hear ❤🎉
Sabotage Studio's other game, The Messenger, also has very good level design for its water level. I really like how the music changes in that game when you dive underwater, and how you have a spin dash to actually move faster underwater.
I knew that I had seen this episode before, and went back to the other channel only to discover that all of the Design Delve episodes that were in this ZP artstyle were taken down. Congrats on fully taking the series back! I hope they all get reuploaded here!
Interesting... I wasn't sure if this was a reupload or a complete remake.
Nick did say that when they brought JM8 in, they made sure that he held the rights to Design Delve. So all of his previous videos will probably be uploaded here over time.
@@wahlflower3517 there were only a few episodes so that was certainly easier to achieve
thank you for saying it. I thought I was having a weird deja vu moment
@@SageWon-1aussie i'd only seen about 3 on the escapist site before
As someone that doesn't design games or anything, it's super interesting to hear the perspectives on game development. Great series!
100% agreed. Great comment.
I say you can apply ideas in many ways. Some may call that being inspired, but I say it's bit more than that.
Especially "obvious" design choices you hardly notice as a player. But you will now.
That "you make things easier after a boss" part, it's do obvious and dozens of examples popped into my head, yet I'd never noticed it as a deliberate design decision.
Super glad you enjoyed it 😁
Your second wind is a breath of fresh air here on UA-cam
Wow
Less than 10 minutes, more than 1000 views 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
This video flowed so well it felt like 30 seconds, not 12 minutes. So nice, and relaxing and thoughtful.
Highest compliment I could receive thank you so much ❤🎉
@@DesignDelve You are welcome. Thank you for making this and doing Design Delve :)
I love the breakdown of how important release/relief is to counter friction in game play.
I still believe that the Sea of Sands quest in Horizon Forbidden West is the best water level in all of gaming. Swimming through the ruins of Las Vegas, hiding from Snapmaws and that massive Tideripper, all while learning the history of the city before the world ended was just a spectacular experience.
I agree. Having to find ways to avoid the enemies that, up to this point, you could fight, but now you can't made for some tense gameplay moments. It was suspencful without leaning into horror.
Couple that with the sense of exploring a city that was once alive and wondering how this city in the middle of a desert got flooded in the first place and I came out pretty surprised with how well they managed to pull it off.
Just thinking back on it now, I agree that that was easily my favourite part of that game. In general the water sections weren't very good but that part really was.
That is less “the water level was fun to play” and more “the water level conveniently highlights a lack of control the player has and therefore compliments the wanted atmosphere”. It is less making a good water level than putting a typical water level in an appropriately scary thing.
I picked up Sea of Stars on a whim and I can say the balance of tickling my nostalgia bone and being just a solid, fun and new experience is fantastic. Highly recommend!
Ultrakill's water levels are an example of a recent water level that I really enjoyed. The change in gravity compliments your movement rather than becoming a hindrance. And the music is very atmospheric.
Deep Blue is just a truly fantastic piece as a stand-alone, and the way He is the Light in my Darkness and Death Odyssey flow together is just wonderful. The Abyss and the Serpent works well for the boss even if it isn’t as grand on its own.
Wonder if you'll do a Design Delve on Open Worlds. Because they can be really hit and miss. Some publishers seem to think BIGGER IS BETTER, but some of my favorite Open World games are much more contained. For example, I prefer the open city maps of the old Assassin's Creed titles, over the massive scale of Origins or Odyssey. My favorite open world maps to explore are in Bethesda's Fallout games especially. Since they're urban environments, contained in a city, it can be dense with all kinds of things to see and do. But larger maps can be done well too with Witcher 3 being a good example.
For me the greater problem is a lack of interesting traversal. I'm not just talking about the web swinging of Spider-Man or the gliding in Arkham Knight because they mostly just represent cathartic traversal. I'm thinking more of the traversal of Morrowind or Breath of the Wild in terms of the challenges they represent.
In Morrowind's case, the player must interpret and follow the directions given by NPCs thus incentivising them to be observant of their surroundings so they might locate the landmarks the NPCs spoke of so you know you're on the right path.
For Breath of the Wild the challenge comes more from the resource management whether it be stamina, clothing and food/elixers.
Both of these examples offer a far more engaging experience that forces the player to survey and take in their environment, a key element of any open world game or else you might as well have a linear path. Certainly a lot more interesting to overcome for a player than having them stare at a quest marker on their compass or minimal and hold forward.
There are three cardinal sins bad open worlds create, that good ones usually avoid.
1. A linear world you can do out of order. A lot of open world games aren't actually open world games. They're linear games turned into open world games, because that's what the kids like these days. Pokemon scarlet & violet are some of the most egregious examples, but there's plenty of others, where they've not made an open world game, but a linear one that you can do wrong.
2. Tedious tasks in a dead world. I call it Ubisoft syndrome. You look at your map, you have a hundred "things"you can do, but none of these things are engaging, none of them offer any particular rewards, and few of them really do anything with the narrative, because they have to be built as though a player won't do them. Sometimes you *need* to do a few of them because the game says your number isn't big enough otherwise, but that doesn't address the core issue.
The result is something like a potemkin village of content. There's so much to do at first glance, but then you poke it, and entire chunks of the world fall over. This ranch serves no purpose, except to give you a place to kill guys with a defend objective. The ranch never does anything else. It never gets mentioned again. Its owner may not have a name, or if they do, it too is never mentioned after the quest is done.
And then third, traversal being tedious and a chore. This turns the big open world into... time. If there's not really any special way to get around that's fun, or anything interesting to see along the way, all you have done is create a 15 minute interactive loading screen in your menu.
My two cents: Open world is not a genre. It is a vibe. Specifically, it is the vibe of pointing at a mountain and saying "I want to see what's on the other side" - and actually being able to do it. But you can't build a game around that. The qualities that make or break an open world game are not in the open world itself, but in the gameplay that inhabits that world. Some common issues:
- If going in every direction results in exactly the same list of four or five chores, and the player has to do those chores to advance the plot, no matter where they go, then the choice of which way to go is merely an illusion.
- If the game is constantly telling you what to do and where to go, then exploration is not a thing.
- If the lore has no connection with the structure and shape of the world, then the world will feel significantly less interesting to explore.
@@NYKevin100 I'd consider it a genre descriptor since there is a clear difference between an Elden Ring and a Dark Souls. I wouldn't say it's a useful descriptor since the games that can consider themselves to be open world are quite varied, but it's still a handy method of getting some insight into how the game is structured.
I will add though, that typically open world games also need additional genre descriptors to give potential players a solid enough understanding of what it entails.
They use footage from it a lot in this video, but the Great Bay Temple is one of the best underwater temples, imo.
Even the original OoT water temple is a master-class in dungeon design. It's only real problem is that the original N64 version had a clunky and annoying menu for equipping and unequipped the iron boots, an issue which after playing it myself is severely overstated
Seriously, it always blows me away to find that people didn't like Zelda's water dungeons because they were always some of my favorites. Both water oriented dungeons in OoT, the one in Oracles of Ages, and the one in Twilight Princess were all really cool!
My biggest issue with it is navigating that place. The actual rooms with puzzles are very distinct so there’s no confusing them for one another. But they’re isolated off from each by these giant centrifugal chambers as the linking point with a long one way nondescript tubes as the means of getting to and fro.
With Zelda’s “puzzle box” dungeon design of you do something in room G, and it has a specific affect somewhere in rooms A-F, going to the affected area and then having to go back to room G is a nightmare when I don’t realize which damn tube in which identical centrifuge room I took to get there last time. And since they’re one way tubes, I have to make a lap all the way back through to the centrifuge room again, but since I couldn’t just backtrack there’s a real chance I might take the wrong damn tube again.
The puzzles are great, the traversal is smooth, the art style and setting is intriguing and matches with the puzzles perfectly, it’s just the pathing and visual ambiguity of some parts that’s frustrating.
Whenever I think of a good water level I think of darksiders 2. While there are no specifically water based areas or dungeons it plays a decently significant part in alot of them. The movement is so smooth and enjoyable when in the water that it doesn't make just searching around a chore if you get good at timing the jumps you can actually do some awesome moves too.
I think another trick you can do if your game relies more on movement is to give your players new powerful movement options right before the water area, allowing them to traverse easier and learn the movement items with slower movement to make it easier to learn, since water allows you to float longer during movement, ultrakill does this exactly giving you a grappling hook right before entering the water level
when it comes to water levels and water temples, one big thing always sticks out to me: underwater movement needs to feel fluid instead of like a struggle, not too slippery like ice either. The player should not have to fight the game just to move around and get things done, if it feels slower, it's miserable ... but, it if feels smoother, more free, faster even, then it's a fun treat for them.
Who says you can't find some magic flippers before you enter the water that make you swim like a penguin can, almost like flying but underwater.
Love how this series balances being so relaxing with being so interesting. Great stuff
5:20 I'm not entirely a big fan of that design philosophy; going from "oh this is tough!" to "oh god this is too easy" can be a whiplash.
The main thing is the ramp back up afterwards. 1 3 2 gives you a bit of that feeling of being a badass but the difficulty NEEDS to jump back up to at least a 3 fairly quickly or, like you said, it just becomes unsatisfying.
@@DURZO521
Nah, I hate it. It's fake. You're manipulating the player into cheap dopamine releases, which is the first step on the road to toxic game design.
You only really experience that feeling of Whiplash when you say go from a 3 to a 1 not as much when you go from a 3 to a 2. If every subsequent puzzle ramped up in difficulty you would eventually hit a roadblock, and frustration would then ensue. To keep someone in a state of flow and engaged with the game, they must be presented with a task that has a certain level of difficulty to keep you thinking but at the same time the task can't be too easy or you would find it boring. If we assume that a 3 is the hardest type of challenge the game offers you, then de-escalating back down to a 2 every now and then can be quite important for the pacing and experience of the game, to keep people from getting too frustrated or, worse yet, too bored.
I understand what you are trying to say here and I agree with it but from my understanding that is not the case with Sea of Stars (from what the video has told me that is, I have not played it myself to experience what is being explained in this video).
So very glad you guys were able to bring Design Delve with you!
i think it is also that water levels (the more frustrating ones at least) also tend to do the same things. You said so yourself that we all have a specific kinds of puzzles in mind for a water level, and so it can feel like they are all hitting the same notes.
Gotta love Design Delve, facets of things that I have experienced but not really thought much about are the best things to have explained to me by a charming host and guest, thanks!
Not related to water temples, but related to what was said about the 1, 3, 2 level design, I really like how that same concept is applied to the different worlds of Spelunky. With how difficult and stressful the jungle can be, it's nice to be able to collect yourself and cool down in the easier ice caves, before you enter the even more challenging temple.
From about minute 4 to minute 7, they use the donkey kong country underwater theme, which is an pretty impressive piece of music to generate using the sound hardware on the snes
Thank you! I recognized it but just couldn't place it.
I didn't watch Design Delve whilst it was on The Escapist, but I've been checking it out ever since it came over to Second Wind.
I’ve put “the bog” on my future to buy and play-list, it sounds amazing! Good luck, I will be following your progress with anticipation 😊
I'm likely never going to use this information, but the way it's presented in a calming but engaging way, along with unique visuals to vary from gameplay footage, is simply irresistible
Started reading this ready for a roast but by the end it left me toasty. Thank you ❤🎉
I confess I didn't watch much other than ZP back in the escapist days - it's great to discover the cool stuff you were doing too.
agreed. the 'event' seemed to have been a blessing in disguise given how much exposure it gave to the rest of the team
Excellent vid as always! I don't have much of anything to say about water temples, but I will say that I really like what you've shown us about The Bog and I'm looking forward to seeing more.
I can't tell you how glad I am to have you and Ludo to look forward to every week 😊
I love these guys so much and want them to succeed to the point that even if I can't actually watch the videos properly because of work I just play it on silent under my desk and upvote till I get chance to watch them, never been disappointed with a vid yet anyway! You are doing great guys, keep it up!
Not the series I expected for an interview, but this was pretty good! Some very good thoughts.
I recently played Sea of Stars and loved it, and i remember seeing the water temple and thinking it was gonna be a slog immediately confused about which direction to go, but swiftly figure out it was amazing!
A game that surprised me with its water level was 'Hubris', which is a VR shooter. It had such a nice responsive swimming mechanic that I was actually really enjoying it. I was actually slightly disappointed when the game moved from the watery areas into a facility because I wanted to keep swimming.
It's so nice that you've managed to repost that one!
Love this show. What a great addition to the schedule. And what a fantastic discussion! Between this show and Tim Cain's channel, I've had such a great day of design discussion.
Whenever I think of underwater anything in video games, the music from DKC starts playing in my mind...annnnd 4 minutes in, there it goes! Thanks for that.
I absolutely LOVE this new series. What an episode. Great stuff again, guys.
Thank you so much 💕🎉
That was easy, I see Sabotage, I watch. Great video!
Love the Hyper Light Drifter music choice!
I love the concept of this series, more please!
I watched this video when it went up on the Escapist and it convinced me to go and play Sea of Stars. I'm glad I did, it's so much fun to play and hasn't dipped in quality once in my play through so far. We need more games like it and people like the team at Second Wind to highlight more great games worth playing. Keep up the good work
I personally like it when the puzzles are 1 2 3 2, butbthe last 2, looks like a 3.or even a *4*, and has this long drawn out simple way to solve it, but also has *the trick* you were oreviously taught, that makes it get solved 10 times faster, because paying attention should be rewarded. And when people talk about it, you will immensely find that group where its "wow that puzzle was so long what was going on there, but it was simple all you had to do was x, omg really? I gotta go try that."
I love that, because people sometimes forget a trick the moment they leave a room that taught it
A great example of underwater gameplay that doesn’t feel horrible to control and actually had underwater sections that I looked forward to playing is Horizon: Forbidden West. It has pretty tense stealth sections underwater that has you hiding in reeds of algae to escape Crocodile machines and other troubling monsters, and has great underwater exploration of old facilities and collecting resources.
Thank you so much for this terrific video!! I love the edit, and the interview was so insightful!! Keep up the great work and long love second wind!!!❤
Thank YOU for the kind words and support ❤
I love the visuals! I'm excited for the next episode just to see 'more of the mine'!
The content and interview was awesome of course! Really good job! Just want to say how much the art impressed me
I honestly believe that a visible sound mechanic should be created that relies on the audio to make you look in its direction but an echolocation/passive "vapor" like effect that appears with the sound in the direction of the sound. (eg like the scanner in starfail going fizzly when aimed at grav things)
I barely used to watch the escapist, even zp but I'm so glad I caught onto this! Amazing video!
Hell yea 😁 amazing to hear 🎉❤
I almost think that having a patches, from dark souls series, character who seems to betray you or put you in a tight spot but was actually the correct way to progress or hint of where a nice goodies are.
Honestly been missing out on this side content, watched ZP on and off for years and when i looked at the channel usually it was hour long podcast/livestream dumps usually crosspromoted with that series.
Nice to see the side content take a step out of the shadow, been really fun seeing all the new content by various creators on the team.
Thanks for giving our stuff a chance and I hope you’re enjoying it! 🎉
More interviews, please! Having a dialogue like that helped so much with the flow of conversation
Fascinating discussion. Thanks!
Guild Wars 2 has imho some of the best underwater mechanics I have seen in gaming.
Though the most complicated thing is having 3 dimensional fights underwater, that is really hard mode if you dont unlearn what you have learned before.. Since fights on land are still on a plane.
"The Game should be done before the player is." Such a great line. I would love to see this sort of philosophy with game design spread.
I really really love how yoyr dog os named Ludo. Very clever!
Thank you for the content!!!!! Some of us came over from The Esc*pist not knowing too much about the non-Yahtzee content. Can say with certainty I am grateful to the relaunch for introducing me to the rest of you guys!
Thanks for giving us a chance 💕🎉
@@DesignDelve no thanks needed my friend, you are a wonderful creator. Thanks for all you do.
NGL i have a massive request of more design delve content on SW. Great video, can't wait to see more!
Crosscode does something weird with its water temple, it removes the interaction with water. There is still water around of course but it just hurts you the same as always. But it still manages to create an awesome feel through the theme of the dungeon itself and the enemies.
The way crosscode dungeons work is that whichever dungeon your in you gain the opposite element, in the ice temple you gain fire for example. So in the water (or wave for crosscode fans which is actually something even people in universe can't explain) you gain power over electricity/shock. Its super fun to be halfway through this water themed area and then be able to alter how things are done inside it with that opposing power.
What stood out to me on the boss fights vs puzzles perceived challenge discussion was the difference in *personality* between the two modes. Boss fights are fundamentally character-driven exercises, and so a personal drama emerges in the conflict between the boss and the player characters. If the boss seems intimidating, we need to feel a full matching level of difficulty in our battle to overcome them for this to pass muster in our minds.
With environmental challenges and puzzles, there is no "character" specific to the difficulty (with a few rare exceptions). The environment, no matter how creative, distinct, memorable or animated, is still just an environment, a place, and the player characters stand out as personal. So when we find that our player character can easily clear an intimidating-looking space or fierce gauntlet, it just makes the player character feel super badass, which is perfectly kromulent with the rest of the game.
well thanks for showing me a game im definetly giving a go at somepoint. excellently done as always.
I tend to think the key thing is to not make swimming tedious, keep the character easy to control, provide a breathing mechanic so there's less stress, the water should be easy to see through, and make it so the player can find something of interest while under there to make it worth while, like a hidden language, or treasures.
Personally I like it most when the water is in an area that makes sense and so does the function of the pipes, say a drained canal that was converted from an underground series of bypasses, it has a reason to have tunnels, it has a reason to have mechanisms that both fill it and drain it of water, and it looks like someone could have used it realistically without playing hopscotch along the way.
This channel is so full of love and heart. I can tell you guys are truly passionate. Now that you're all free, its really showing. Meanwhile, some other channel has turned off all the comments on their videos 😆 🤣
“In the wake of poseidon” from Ultrakill is my favourite example of an underwater level.
Great show, very glad I started watching this show last week 😄 also happy im not the only one who thought the water level in Conker's Bad Fur Day was a nightmare 😂
the 1 3 2 puzzle design is genius
As someone who remembers the move from 2D to 3D and especially when OOT came out and the infamous water temple, I think part of it is that water levels gave the first real feeling of moving in 3D as well as just appearing in 3D, and I think it was the mental transition from designing and playing in a 3D space was a harder transition than people think. So in attempting to take advantage of this technology there was a lot of miss stepping, and with the freedom of movement water brings it makes the job even more difficult. When you think about it another space with a lot of 3D movement is well, space, but most of those games involve some kind of artificial gravity so you don't float around.
Its also hard just to get the movement in water right. You want the player to feel floaty without them feeling ungodly slow. Then you also want to make sure there is a point to being able to move in all these directions, but while people in real life are 3D we don't often move much on a vertical axis. Gravity keeps us moving on a more or less 2D plane.
This is a lot to get over, and not only do the developers have to get over this hump, they also have to figure out a way to signal players to look in the right directions, but payers still have to learn how to play in a 3D plane.
This is hard, and it takes a lot of work just to make it function not to mention feel good.
This was a wonderful interview and great advice for making one of the more hated types of levels actually enjoyable. :D
Genshin's added a lot of fun little water temples. Their early ones were more basic because you could only swim on the surface, so they were mainly "lower the water level several times" or "raise the water level to reach a high point," but now that you have full swimming movement they have some more complex ones, including having magical "walls" and "ceilings" of water that you can pass through into dry areas.
The other thing is that they made swimming fun. No need to worry about drowning, its not frustratingly slow and even if you deplete your stamina bar odds are that there is a stamina fish near to you to keep the momentum going. The combat is not be best but at least its a break from elemental reactions 24/7.
An interesting discussion. Thank you. But, I'd like to know more about the 1-3-2 design principle you were mentioning. What is it, please?
Majoras Mask water temple was pretty fun playing with current and moving with speed like a Zora was fun ! Never understood why they used more what works for other...
I’m getting ‘Nam Flashbacks’ of Sonic’s drowning timer lol.
I quite enjoyed how Abzu was designed, even though it is primarily a puzzle game. The underwater parts in Gris were also fun, where you can propel yourself in transitions between water/air/upside-down. What I don’t miss is the underwater expansion zone in World of Warcraft..
Great topic! Love water levels' ambiance, but do wish more companies would take things like you both mentioned into consideration when designing both them and the game play in them. Thanks for this!
Great video, i loved the insight!!
For underwater games it really depends, but i think most games fight the two best things about water, you feel free and like youve escaped gravity but it's also inherently scary too. I think that's why a (non indie) game like Dave The Diver works. you feel free and mobile, but you also still feel tense. I think that's something that could translate to 3d but one would have to be cautious of too much of that lost feeling and distance of sight, it would need to be a balance of seeing far, but not too far, while also putting enough distinct landmarks that players arent easily lost.
I love this series, its extremely informative and entertaining plus it makes me realize and appreciate my childhood games
awesome episode. congrats!
In Guild Wars 2 having an underwater mount had been a game changer. it gives a reason for the character to still move fast and maneuver well, once they achieve having the mount, without just hand waving the effects of water away. It makes the slowness and annoyance of being in water something to be overcome in a satisfying way, that also makes sense in the world's logic.
I actually noticed that about the Tower of Antsuldo! That it was a bunch of self-contained puzzles on each floor. By the time I hit the third one I was going "okay, what's the next bag of tricks you're throwing at me" :P
Woo hoo. New episode!
I love the editing on this show so much. 5:18 the dev says the word "velocity" and a clip of a giant throwing a boulder over the horizon hahahah
One thing I like about the water dungeon (and water in general) in Sea of Stars is that even the parts where you're just swimming aren't that bad-it's just walking but a little bit slower and maybe locked behind a key item.
I've always been a fan of how Banjo-Kazooie has a little bit of water in every level, slowly adding more hazards (a shark, enclosed spaces where you can't resurface for air, and eventually water that hurts to touch and drains air faster)... there's only a single dedicated water level (Clanker's Cavern) but since there's a little bit of optional swimming in every level it never feels like a gimmick.
Second Wind is the coffee table art book for video games. I really love listening to people talk about games like the labours of love (and strife) that they are.
This comment.
@@DesignDelve no, THIS comment
As for my opinion, check out the underwater exploration segment in Genshin Impact's Fontaine region. For some reason, exploring any underwater location in that region always filled me with wonder and curiosity instead of tedium and boredom. Give it a shot. Maybe you can figure it out better than I could.
The Iron Throne level in baldur's gate 3 is probably my favorite underwater level from recent memory.
Something I’m still not clear on is 1, 3, 2 level design that you talked about. Is that something that has been covered in other videos?
Great topic. And Sea of Stars looks really fun and a joy to look at, I'm definitely gonna check it out!
Absolutely wonderful video and I found an amazing game through it 😁
There's a particular thing meant by the phrase "Underwater Temple" that I think comes mostly from Ocarina of Time's Water Temple, but I think is also exemplified in the infamous Jabu Jabu's Belly from Oracle of Ages. When you're designing an Underwater Temple, it's easy enough to independently come up with the idea of draining/filling the temple with water, which might affect the whole temple, which might mean each room in the temple has multiple states, which might mean you gotta backtrack to previously visited rooms at least once for each water depth, which - and here may be the problem - might stack with the game's existing tendency to make you revisit certain rooms after obtaining some new gadget or ability halfway through the dungeon that enables new options in those rooms.
Genshin Impact recently added part of the world where 50% of it is underwater and Initially I thought it would be terrible but it's actually really fascinating. There are 3 ways they achieve this. They lowered the difficulty of combat and made it more of a puzzle rather than a skill-check underwater. They removed the concept of holding your breath/oxygen meters entirely. And there is a ton of stuff to see and do down here, pretty much any time you dive down into an area you haven't cleared out yet you are presented with 4 or so different puzzles and activities so you always have one if not multiple goals ahead of you and are never just "treading water". And of course it all looks as breathtakingly beautiful as the rest of the game.
I think what usually trips up underwater sections is they focus to much on the realism of it. They keep enemies in place but limit your movement making fighting or evading them a chore. And on top of that you have no idea where you are going and are constantly running out of breath. So even when you know where you want to go you need to make numerous stops along the way in uninteresting places merely to refill the oxygen meter. It just becomes so much more of a slog than than the game usually is and as a result it sucks.
The real genius on what Thierry explained is that the best puzzles feel like a well-planned, well executed Rube Goldberg Machine.
At it's heart, an RGM is sequential contraption where the simple work of each individual piece pushes the larger sequence further.
If you look closely to the components of a properly made RGM, pretty much all of them follow a 1-2-3 or 3-2-1 pattern to generate their effects depending on how many pieces rely on the result of their performance.
Those ascending or descending patterns, when applied to player oriented experiences take the form of either tutorials or difficulty ramping (where you train the user to tackle larger complexities, or break down a complex maneuver into easily digestible parts).
The bulk of many games are those patterns.
The truncated patterns (1-3-2, 2-1-3, 3-1-2, etc.), however, are less about the mechanics and more about the effect, which is why Thierry and co. used them for the type of content that is important.
The tower is a prime example, especially for what happens around it, both before and after you finishes the puzzle.
Looking at the big picture, because this point is one of the game's mayor turning points, I'm sure they knew they couldn't allow it to be boggled by tedium. But to deliberately use an element infamous for being a flow breaker (pun intended) in such a point, AND commit themselves to pull it off... THAT is a bold statement for the Sabotage Studio team.
Be proud of what you did.
I still have one or two comments (saved for my review of Sea of Stars on Steam) about the story, which despite its grand achievement still has some flaws in its individual events; but where design is concerned you are already there. You have really improved by leaps and bounds from The Messenger, which had a few parts that did feel a bit jarring or sluggish (due to the sheer gauntlets you created there).
Sea of Stars is Just Right.
Keep up that quality, which is on par with your music direction, and now work on the story. Because once you guys polish that remaining part, YOU guys will be one of the forerunners of then next generation of Triple As.
You can do it, Thierry, Sabotage Studio!
I am going to see what I can do to apply this to ttrpgs I run. Had issues when just throwing in new systems because it slows everything down. Thank you!