Top 5 Poorly Designed Characters In Smash Ultimate
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
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In today's video I'll be talking about the 5 characters who I personally think are the worst designed Smash Ultimate.
Little Mac video: • Why Little Mac Is Horr...
Sonic Video: • Sonic: Smash's Neglect...
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how are ice climbers not on this list. The way nana works is so poorly designed
I don’t agree with the little Mac being bad thing many characters have flaws they can use to their advantage and I’ve gotten a decent amount of air kills as little Mac
Another excuse is predictability but ironically he has more options when approaching spammers then most characters since everyone expects everyone else to jump over things like PK fire where as Mac’s quick dodges or super armour lets him charge right through etc
I think it would absolutely be fair to add hurtboxes to Min Min's arms. Unlike the Belmont's whip or Sephiroth's Katana, Min Min's arms are a part of her and not a weapon she holds, thus giving them a hitbox seems perfectly fair.
how the fuck were there not hurt boxes in the first place
like I get there weren’t arm hurt boxes in ARMS but it makes zero sense for Smash Ultimate considering Mewtwo’s tail hurtbox
@@JawlineJim There actually are hurtboxes on their arms in Arms. In the game, if you hit the opponent's arm while it's out, the arms clank and both are temporarily disabled.
-I main min min...it's undoubtedly my favorite thing about her because she just shits on counters (except sora) not to mention projectile counters especially because she has upsmash reflect which combined with the actual upsmash.
I think it would be fair to make them hurt boxes and thats saying a lot considering again I main her so-
@@AverageDoctor345 that just makes it so much more unreasonable
Yet mewtwo has a hurtbox on his tail and it holds him back horribly. Even though in the previous game he didn't, and he was by no means an overpowered character. Dlc privilege is real
Sometimes Ultimate favors game accuracy a little too much, rather than balancing. Which doesn't cause too many fundamental problems, but makes the already busted moves even more broken. Like, it wasn't good enough already? It also had to have a command grab? It also had to have a reflector? It also had to be literally invincible?
Them focusing on game accuracy is a step in the right direction. The real issue is that they only did so for the later additions to the series but do not go back to change older characters, so the end result would be Kazuya or something being fully accurate to his series and having a lot of good options while the likes of DK, for example, barely plays like his game at all and feels sorely limited. This is why I want the next Smash game to completely overhaul character movesets, or at least the movesets of those from 64-Brawl and some from Smash 4 and Ult if they get added again like say Byleth or Little Mac
@@Lexicon865 I guess the appeal of Smash in the first place is proper fighter representation. But yeah, the difference is so stark here.
The next game could only rework a few veterans, like Ultimate, or do the cooler thing and revamp almost everyone. But they'd have to cut the roster to do that, which I'm not against if it guarantees badly designed/repped fighters the changes they deserved way before
It's really the opposite, them not focusing on game accuracy to a T makes the moves more busted. Like Steve can't place blocks in mid air in Minecraft, which would heavily nerf his options if he had to place them on the ground to start with. Kazuya doesn't have a reflector in Tekken, in ARMS there's a rock, paper, scissors mechanic with the weight of arms determining who wins a trade, so you can cancel the arms just by throwing out your own, etc. In some cases it works like how Arsense is a comeback mechanic rather than just being able to use him at will, but in some cases it could really balance out a fighter even more
@@UltimateTS64 Was going to come in with some of this but so much yes. I don't know why it is so obvious for DLC (particularly pack 2) that they threw balance out the window in a way they would never have done with characters in the base game. That undermines the game for the long-term. Shouldn't be a design goal. And a part of that is buffing moves with things that the characters can't do in their base game. Few things are more degenerate than seeing Steve build a wall in mid-air that prevents someone from being able to reach ledge while recovering. It isn't Minecraft accurate and it is a broken, degenerate design choice.
@@UltimateTS64 and yet there would be other examples of following game accuracy to a T that would make moves more busted. It's not about accuracy. It should be about alluding to the source material but staying within the confines of a proper smash character
It's wild that FP2 is so dumb that Luigi being so heavily based on fishing for grabs the entire game can't even come close to this list anymore
Hell no.
That and Palutena... existing.
@@KrazyKyle-ij9vbPost nerf Palu is fine tbh.
Some parts of the characters are quite dumb (But that can be said about most top tiers), but she has to put the work to kill since her tools are amazing but she usually relies on outplaying the opponent consistently since she doesn't really have early kill setups that aren't "dont die from upair in juggle"
Only move I really think warps her the wrong way is how binary her nair is
Luigi is bottom 10 but not bottom 5. The bottom 10 imo is (From worst to least bad) Sonic, Steve, Kazuya, Min-Min, Lucario, Little Mac, Ice Climbers, Luigi, Mii Gunner and Ganondorf, with honorable mention to Hero, Mythra and Piranha Plant. Notice that 6 of those 13 characters are DLC and I'm not fond of Sora or Banjo-Kazooie either.
@N12015 I agree with most of these, but how the hell is piranha plant poorly designed
Honorable mention to Luigi
dishonorable mention
@@jamesperry8661 lol ur right
I was a Luigi main in smash 4 and I tried to main him in this game but he's too lame
And Incineroar
Yeah, they could've implemented a whole Luigi's Mansion style moveset, but he's still a semi Mario clone
Honestly Steve’s design is difficult to consider
He’s probably the character that required the single most effort to design. And for what it’s worth, he’s extremely well designed as an adaptation of Minecraft. His moveset incorporates a ton of iconic and significant Minecraft items and mechanics, which is really cool. His mining/block placing mechanics are also very well created. Attention to detail is abundant (all the different textures, items, block models, and sound effects incorporated) and the effort to make blocks function on every stage in the game is immense.
However, this character *needed* to have been kept an eye on after he was released. As Larry said, Steve having the most ambitious design in all of smash led to the most oversights, and in these ways the design of Steve fails to generate fun and fair gameplay. A lot of Steve’s moves are tuned in simply the wrong way. Anvil is a powerful killing block in Minecraft, but it’s also much more difficult to land in 3D, but the devs didn’t account for this, and that’s how it became so absurdly strong. (And that’s ignoring the privilege of having a stall-and-fall projectile move) Sakurai was worried about how functional Steve would be with his short-range attacks and low speed, which is how we got the insane frame data and damage of Steve’s normals. I’d honestly go as far as to say the damage is the bigger problem than the frame data. Steve’s wooden up air already does more damage than meta knight’s or Mythra’s, for context. Diamond up air puts him on the level of wolf. The scaling is all wrong for a character that’s capable of chaining 5+ up airs/tilts in a row consistently, and if his upair/tilt was actually tuned down, Steve combos would be a lot more interesting, because you would be absolutely required to optimize them to get decent damage. (like Sheik combos) And of course the same goes for his other tools. (bair and f-smash are very overtuned) Minecart especially was given insane utility for little reason, and shows the inexplicable yet unequivocal privilege of DLC (a base character’s projectile grab would NOT go through shield, or wouldn’t have an aerial hitbox, and definitely wouldn’t kill as early)
And of course, block exploits just weren’t considered. Even simple walls are problematic, as not enough thought was put into how other moves would interact with them, especially projectiles, which range from very useful to completely ineffectual, with the specific interactions being extremely inconsistent, unintuitive, and arbitrary. (Why can’t explosive flame go through blocks? Why do Byleth’s arrows get absorbed without damaging the block?) And of course they didn’t predict ledge planking, which they absolutely could’ve fixed…if they were paying attention
Jesus dude, this video dropped half an hour ago. How'd you type this wall of text in that time?
@@dogpilekid He is clearly a fast typer. Its not that hard to write a wall of text if you have concise and concrete thoughts on said topic and know what you want to say imo.
yeah dude he took so much effort, thats why up tilt and up air aswell as jab, sword fair and sword bair are the same moves
@@dogpilekid does it matter? Lol
@@nemil238 dude what
You didn't even mention that Kazuya's up-b doesn't put him into free fall. I think that's such a busted mechanic for all characters with that.
It's really not.
Kazuya's disadvantage is still terrible despite his up-b
@@ivrydice0954
The man has so much jank and he still needs more? Might as well buff him and just deletes characters the second the match starts.
It can be argued that Steve and kazuya are poorly designed simply cause they're over designed
mmmmm
idk if theyre overdesigned. i like the mechanics that they have, but its super clear that those mechanics, when put into the context of their kits, are fucking busted beyond belief. so nerfing those mechanics/kits should work because there isnt much thats inherently overpowered about them, except for blocks.
@@firewall5189 the only problem I see with that with that is you might get to a point where they aren’t even playing how they were intended to after so many trial and error nerfs, and may just become completely undermined by the nerfs they need.
it’s a scale, under-tuned equals bad, over-tuned is equally bad
it’s called a “balanced” character for a reason, the goal isn’t how much shit can be thrown into a character at once. Over design = trash design
@@firewall5189 I don't know. In relation to Steve, no way they could have accounted for all the tech Steve players have found. At most when you look at Day 1 Second 1 Steve Diamond is probs the most crazy thing about him. Kazuya however is like they didn't bother putting any thought into balancing him at all other than the jump squat.
I would disagree with Steve being poorly designed, I think he is well designed but poorly balanced. What I mean is his design is really interesting, but the problem is that some of his options are too strong, so I don’t think he should be redesigned, but rather they should just make some of his attacks weaker or worsen their frame data.
To compare, a character that is more fair/balanced but is still poorly designed is lucario, yeah he isn’t broken, but his design end up making him way too powerful when he has a lot of aura giving too much reward when losing or being in high% without the need of good gameplay, and too weak without aura not rewarding good gameplay as much as it should be rewarded
At first, Little Mac's design seems to make sense. He gets a good ground game in exchange for a bad aerial game. Basically every character has such trade offs. However, in Smash and especially in Ultimate, the trade off that Mac got is not balanced at all. His aerial game is not bad, he is helpless in the air. But he doesn't even get a phenomenal ground game, it's just good.
But even if he had a near unbeatable ground game, it still wouldn't be balanced out because UItimate is such an air focused game. He basically loses an entire dimention of movement and mixups, which negatively effects his neutral, advantage, and disadvantage. He simply has less options. Even if the few options he had were the best in the game, the opponent could predict and adapt to them easier.
Another problem is that the options he has generally promote evasion as a viable strategy to beat Mac. The vast majority of characters gain something when running away from him. I would say that generally, a fighting game character who disensentivises fighting is not well designed. It's kind of the same problem as with Sonic, but flipped.
The design of Kazuya is cool, the way they balanced him is not. Sakurai said they buffed his damage and it's clear that they went overboard on that. Plus, giving the wave dash invincibility and the axe kick a reflecting property is not only inaccurate to Tekken, but also just stupid
You can just tell Sakurai was being biased. I doubt Kazuya was "that" weak before they decided to overtune him. And even if he was "that" weak, why give him all of that broken nonsense like invincibility on a freaking wave dash? There were so many battles people would win if it wasn't for Kazuya's absurd amount of invincible and super armor moves.
@@Spyder-Marth So a slow character with no ranged and limited combo starters in neutral and barely any OOS options and terrible disadvantage would be a "not that bad character"
With all due respect Ganondorf already tried to make that work.
For me personally I'd just just tone own the invincibility and hitstun on his moves (and maybe nerf axe kick?) instead of nerfing damage.
@@Spyder-Marth He was probably weak in free for all lmao
I think he is fine. Just seeing his tournament matches is not an utter sweep.
But I can see why he was viewed especially since he has no range. A weak jump and linear specials.
Him having I frames on his dash is just upper body invul if you low poke or counter poke you can deal with his tools
zoners can still make it hard for him to play. He is designed well for what he has to do. Especially in a game like this
My issue with the game is the power imbalance in punish game between characters. When a character like fox, who would otherwise be a really good character, has to read you 5 times to extend a combo, or win neutral 5 times to get a stock, but the other character has a touch of death, which as long as you dont drop it, has a 100% success rate, then that is an imbalance. Fox can not true combo to death people, he has to get reads to do so. Fox has to shark whiff punishes, kazuya doesn’t, any hit can lead to death. Not only that, but when fox has to kill with a back air that stales horribly and can struggle to kill at 120, and relies on up smash confirms in the 100s. But characters like roy have jab and side b confirms that kill at 50 by ledge, it just doesn’t seem fair.
Here I thought that I was original with my name
@@aratherlargerodent This comment section ain’t big enough for the both of us 🔫🤠
@@someguy535 I beg your pardon? 🔫🤠
LOL what are the chances XD
"Then just buff everyone so they can all be up to par with them" 💀
Something I just can’t understand is why he can place blocks in the air when he can’t even do that in his own game lol
Probs the same reason Shulk has Smash & Jump.
It's tools that are better suited for the genre and makes them more fun.
If you were to go down every character you'll probably find something they can't do in their games that they can do in smash.
@@ivrydice0954 There is no way that placing blocks in midair is well suited for a platform fighter. You literally see pros getting walled off from being able to recover because of this and his zero to deaths (which the designers have shown a preference to patch out of the game) are enabled because of this. Lore inaccurate and NOT well suited for Smash.
@@mattf5935 Kragg from Rivals can, and no one cares about it. The difference between him and Steve is that steve doesnt have a limit and can cheese easily. If steves blocks were easier to break from off stage and had a limit to like 3 blocks maybe he would be considered more balanced. If non grounded blocks were quicker to break and stayed out in less time it would be better.
@@mattf5935 You shouldn't be getting walled offstage if you mixup your recovery.
Learn the MU and it's gets easier trust me bro.
I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that mario can throw fireballs without his fire alt
As a Kazuya secondary I can safely say he doesn't need the invincibility on everything. Downgrading it to super armor or subtractive armor (yoshi jump but less extreme) would make sense. (Why have it in the first place? Because he's a cool character by personality and casuals using the character need something to carry them)
Also as a nice touch Sakurai could've put super armor on only the moves that had it in Tekken as well.
Na no super armor, them casuals can suck it
References. They're referencing Tekken.
3 out of the top 5 being fp2 characters makes me feel so validated
*super armor*
Ok, he is a DLC. He’s bound to have something good.
*Intangibility*
Ok, I think super armor was enough, but I’m ok with this.
*Reflector*
Doesn’t look too fast, but idk why he has one.
*Command dash with I frames*
Ok, an intangible movement thingy. I think this is enough.
*Tough guy*
Wait, what? Isn’t that Bowser’s unique thing?
*A move that activates 2% of smash 64 hitstun’s true power*
Wait, Sakurai please st-
*Rage mode that strengthens attacks*
I can’t look anymore!
*Powers up his command grab, that does indeed have armor*
I’m quaking in my boots rn!
(The worst part is I probably missed some things lol)
you forgot a godlike combo-tree on top of all this shit, it ain't just *1 Zero to Death combo* but multiple
Tough guy does like nothing to kazuya compared to Bowser
This is hilarious
Why did they stop patching Ultimate so soon? That was one of the biggest mistakes the Ultimate team has made.
Honestly Little Mac having bad aerials / air stuff isn't even what makes him poorly designed IMO. Much like other characters in this list he is definitely overtuned in at least one aspect (ground stuff) and the optimal way to beat him requires playing the game in a singular and very boring way with most of the cast (camping platforms). What links all these characters is they're just not really fun to fight.
I wouldn't even call his ground game overtuned, it's just very good. But I would not find it overwhelming.
The Namco rep from Pass #2 should have been Yoshimitsu, who'd honourably decide to fight fair and use a conventional Smash moveset rather than all his moves from his home games. And he'd rep two series at the same time.
Nah. There’s nothing wrong with it being Kazuya. The problem is the absurd overtunning they did to him.
@@AarturoSc Yoshimitsu is also way more unique compared to the four normal fighting game characters we did get. Two blonde American meatheads and two stern Japanese men out of all the characters that they could have.
I'd have replaced Ken and Kazuya with Chun Li and Yoshimitsu.
@KaptainMorganWo Ken was only in because he was a clone and would be easy to develop. Chun Li wouldn't replace him since she'd be a fully unique character. If anyone else were to take his place, it would have to be another shoto like Akuma
@@cuttsthecat6331 That's assuming she'd be in the same spot in the game as Ken.
I'd have lived without Plant or one of the less popular DLC characters to have Chun instead.
@@KAPTAINmORGANnWo4eva This isn’t Nintendo vs. Street Fighter. The guest characters are spread more evenly and only have more than one rep when is an echo fighter. It’s not a matter of “removing Plant” or characters you think nobody cares to have more time. Otherwise they would have went with Simon and Alucard as they originally wanted.
Second, about Yoshimitsu, not only is he less important to the fact overall story of Tekken than the Mishima, “representing 2 universes” is such an empty statement. The fans would care more about the characters themselves than the number of things they represent.
I think my pick would be Hero, because of the accessibility barrier created by their menuing. Because of the lack of any icons or other means of telling what the spells are, if you don’t know how to read the language of the setup you’re at, you won’t be able to tell what the Hero is doing, and inaccessibility is some of the worst design in my eyes.
Tbh I used to have a problem with that but someone brought up a great point, you're rewarded for learning how to read the language, which is a life skill. I don't necessarily know if the language barrier is a bad or acceptable thing but I could see arguments for either side
@@igirjei3717 it's a fighting game, not duolingo.
@@dsyy90210 I'm aware, whether or not someone thinks hero should be banned for it, there are at least some arguments both for and against the ban
@@igirjei3717 i def dont think he should be banned, i just think it would've been good to provide some kind of symbols so his menu options are more immediately and universally identifiable
@@dsyy90210 I think that's fair yeah, I don't really see a reason why they shouldn't have other than that *maybe* it wouldn't look 100% authentic to DQ11
I feel like Steve is gonna get absolutely neutered in the next game
Hopefully to non-existency
Doubt he will be in the next one
Steve and Kazuya aren’t really “poorly” designed characters rather “overwhelming” designed ones. They simply have way too much positives and gimmicks that make their flaws overshadowed by their positives. I mean, Steve can really do practically anything in this game, despite having combos so easy. And Kazuya? My guy you don’t even have a reflector in tekken, why the hell do you have the strongest one in smash?
I mean, isn't an "overwhelming" character just another type of poorly designed character, a characters strengths massively outweighing their weaknesses is poor design
@@lancestriker0111 in a way yeah. I made that comment a year ago. I wasn’t really too knowledgeable about smash. All this time now I can say that yeah Steve and Kazuya aren’t designed well.
I think Steve has actually some of the best and most interesting character design in the game, he's just extremely overturned. If he got some simple stat changes (diamond, minecart, anvil), he would be a great character.
Facts, he's one of the coolest characters in the game but since he's too OP it makes him lame
Nerfs would have been fine but I don't think he's any more overtuned than the rest of top 10
@@nathanlevesque7812 hes easily the best character in the game
@@youtubeyt5694 contentious at best
@@nathanlevesque7812 bro esam just admitted that hes better than pikachu.
I remember complaining that Kazuya is gonna break the game as soon as he was released, and so many people were just like "jUuSt LeArN tHe MaTcHuP!".
It's not just about learning the matchup, it's about being able to play the damn game correctly. It's pretty mindblowing that Minmin, Steve and Kazuya are STILL not banned...
The only character that should be banned is Steve. With Kazuya’s ewgf just mix up your di, and he can’t do the combo. With Steve though, that does nothing. The combos are always guaranteed.
Banning Kazuya or Minmin doesn't make sense as they don't have the results to justify it. 2 players (Riddles and Tea) doing well on Kazuya isn't ban worthy, and 1 player (Protobanham) doing well on MinMin also isn't ban worthy at all
The difference is that Kazuya is extremely hard to master and he can be quite inconsistent with his inputs since they can be easily confused. But he also is extremely easy to edgeguard, you can make Rage run out, he struggles against fast projectiles and sword users and he has the absolute worst disadvantage in the game
Thats cuz top players know the matchup
@@Pichulover69 he can react to your di. ewgf is very generous with hitstun.
0:00-0:03 "I wanna thank EDP for sending me these controllers."
damn its crazy how the top 3 of this list are all FP2,, its almost like they are unhealthy for the game and we are better off deleting them
At least Pythra is on good terms with Larry Lurr.
Idk how many people know this but kazuyas passive armor is called tough body
I thought it was tough guy
@@GravityRaider Bowsers armor is called tough guy. Ig they didn't want to reuse the name so they called Kazuyas armor tough body instead
@@bergamothecrusher9713 Ahhh gotcha, ty.
@@GravityRaider NP I enjoy giving out this random info I find in the tip section on the game
1:24 alternatively, you could consider his design *conceptually* fantastic, because it puts into the mechanics themselves the underdog essence of the character!
I appreciate you actually researching about the characters and why are they poorly designed, instead of going the easy way and being like "Okay so Olimar is number 3 because i dunno how to use it therefore it's bad"
“Faithful adaptation” doesn’t mean good design. Period. By that logic if you put a DBZ character in Smash or any other game and gave them all the strength, speed and planet destroying attacks they have on the show/manga, that would be considered “good design” even if the rest of the cast had no way to deal with all of that. If a character has a toolkit that the rest of the cast can’t effectively deal with then that character is badly designed, “faithful adaptation” or otherwise. Why do players justify shitty designs so much?😩
It’s not so black and white dude
Not justifying bad design, it’s called giving a nuanced or comprehensive criticism
@@KevSB07 Actually it is for the most part. Adding in elements that were foreign to a game that the rest of the roster weren’t equipped to handle is going to cause problems, Steve and Smash 4 Bayo are prime examples. (Not implying Steve is Smash 4 Bayo levels of busted)
@@KevSB07 Giving nuanced criticism is fine, problem is when some players come to the conclusion after giving their nuanced criticism that X character is fine and isn’t problematic despite results and blatant advantages in comparison to the rest of the cast is where the issues come in.
@@riotron1026 hence why I don’t claim Steve is a great design. Im very adamant that his interpretation and adaptation are great on a surface level, but the individual components of his kit are overtuned and important interactions with other characters/how he would reasonably fight and be fought werent given enough thought.
I don't think steve is badly designed, he's more overturned, besides sakurai probably didn't expect steve players to play as toxic as they ended up playing when he was designing steve
A small change that I think would go a long way would be to increase the knockback for his up tilt for everything other than wood and gold. It would add an actual downside to upgrading to diamond since it would hurt his low percent combo game. Hopefully encouraging less camping from steve players.
Fighter Pass 2 and its consequences were disastrous for the Smash Ultimate metagame.
No one talking about how Joker is badly designed. If you're going to make him ridiculously strong with Arsene, he shouldn't be as good as he is in base
No one is talking about Joker because base Joker is diet Sheik with a busted neutral-b.
They should add Waluigi to the game, the certified Steve and Kazuya killer.
The issue with Kazuya is that as egregiously overtuned as he is (seriously, it feels like the devs just decided to give him every known char specific gimmick in the game, even corrin stun on electric) the common retort from the Kazuya player base is that "the character is hard to play" and while I agree, he's probably one of the hardest if not thr hardest character to play at top level at least amongst the higher echelon of characters (ie difficulty in execution, not a char being low tier/weak) I'm sure that literally anyone can win at the local level by spending a couple of hours learning how to down throw electric into ZTD against opponents who aren't that good at mixing up DI. Plus his sheer volatility means that even in high to top level sets players that didn't nessicarily deserve to win came out on top + upsets gallore
Also didn't talk about it much but gates of hell straight up invalidates half the cast and especially those with poor recovery not to mention it's practically guaranteed out of an electric combo provided you end up facing the side closer to the blast zone when you finish the combo
Like yeah, if you want to wave dash like riddles, have fun spending 6 months in training mode practicing it every day, but the skill floor for the character is indeed hilariously low for the amount of output you get using that minimal amount of knowledge with the character
It reminds me of the earlier Steve days online where the "so I minecart low or high?" Flowchart unironically won games on its own
At that point I would say why are you playing a platform fighter and go play Tekken.
Never was a fan of it's hard therefore if it can actually cause concerns for the game then it's a ok.
Yea it's a stupid excuse, it's not even a hard character in terms of the actual game play itself, it's just the inputs the character has, u dont need to actually get better at smash to get good with Kazuya, u dont need to learn how to read ur opponent or learn spacing, it's just learning inputs, and u can throw all of the other games skills out of the window. It's just playing a rhythm game.
From a game developer’s perspective, Kazuya is very poorly designed. Not because of his kill power, not because of his combo game, but because of how much he rewards tryhards.
Think about it: Ultimate is meant to bridge the gap between competitive and casual players, but Kazuya rewards competitive players so much that he creates the biggest divide between the two audiences in the entire game.
i dont know how you can show steve literally pushing another character across the entire stage with the same attack comboing into itself and not mention it verbally.
I have to agree, Kazuya is broken. I don't think he's Sm4sh Bayo broken but he's broken nonetheless.
I think Ganondorf deserves a mention for being poorly designed in a different way. Aside from the fact that very little of the source material went into his kit and he maintains semi-clone status to a character that has nothing to do with him, he's the chief representative of an archetype that just doesn't work in Smash Bros; a pure-power brawler with restricted mobility and no zoning tools. Without mobility, he can't chase down opponents running away or escape bad situations. Without zoning tools, he can't force approaches and is at the mercy of every other character with zoning tools, especially since he doesn't have the mobility to get around them. Worst of all, his recovery is short ranged and exploitable, cutting down the longevity this character is supposed to have with his heavyweight status, and speaking of, combining all this with his weight and large size making him an easy mark, he's got easily the worst disadvantage of any character, and it's not like his means of gaining and pushing advantage are much better. Simply put, the sheer power approach to the character just isn't doing him any favors; he needs more than just one-hit damage. I think more than any other character, Ganondorf is due for and is most deserving of a ground-up redesign.
I do think Kazuya is more poorly design than Steve. Steve just brought something new that Smash never had before. Kazuya being the forth FGC character in Smash does not have a lot of executions like in Tekken. He just have inputs and moves from Tekken. I still think that the EWGF should have been a just frame input like in Tekken instead of pressing down forward and A at the same time. Anybody can get good using that input while just frame takes some practice to get those perfect inputs. He's not much of a execution heavy like in Tekken. It's just one input that you have to get good using. Otherwise, playing basic without EWGF is the easy part. Not the case in Tekken. You don't have to think what moves to use. You just do it and you most likely will get the kill. I wanted Kazuya or Jin in smash, and I think Kazuya should have been better than this.
As a casual player nothing breaks your spirit like someone who got good with Kazuya 0 to deaths and looks like they aren’t even playing the same game anymore
Surprised Incineroar didn't make it on the list just given the polarity between his speed and power. They front loaded too much into Revenge's comeback factor, when they could have toned it down and make him a combo centric, super heavyweight. That would have been cool
I think its interesting that in spite of everything Kazuya has, he's still not the best character in the game. Just goes to show how far you need to push the heavyweight archetype to make them top tier.
Def agree about kazuya. I spent about an hour learning the wind god first combos and absolutely wrecked with him. There were some kinda tough match ups and it is difficult to land sometimes but it felt like throwing the game on easy mode. If I touched you, that was stock. He is really made so easy by utilizing his completely unique knockback and hitstun. I would like to extend that there are plenty of playable characters in this game. Why is it that tournaments are still not banning problem characters. Steve, kazuya, and min min have severely limited the character pool that used to come to tournaments. Sorry Incineroars your chance at tourney is gone.
Does your opponent mix up their di? Cause Kazuya’s death combos don’t work if your opponent knows what they’re doing.
@@Pichulover69 yeah they do, they simply need to dash in, short hop, auto track nair and the combo continues
@@Pichulover69 care to explain how people are still getting 0 - death by Riddles at tournament level? They're all veteran players that know what they are doing. His combos still work with optimal DI
@@TyphonCH No they don't. Even Riddles agrees that most top players are not DI'ing Kazuya optimally.
@@janmarcoperezbatres2203 I am a kazuya main that has been playing him since release and I hate to say, but you're using old news. Before electric into dash was picked up, you could make it a 50/50 with DI. However, dashing after electric covers both DI in and out, meaning regardless of how you DI, the combo continues.
Two words: Ganon. Dorf.
I also want to talk about DK. What's DK best known for? Throwing barrels. How many moves involve a barrel? Zero.
Cranky Kong is the barrel thrower from the original DK not the DK in smash.
@@ABC-ik9vj Throwing Barrels is literally the first thing DK does in the first game he's in lol.
@@ABC-ik9vj The original Arcade game. And even if you say that's not actually DK from Smash, barrels are a staple of the Country series, and at the very least more associated with DK than pretty much any of his current specials.
I think many of DK's normals fit him extremely well, but yeah, I wouldn't mind if he had a Barrel Throw and Barrel Cannon for his Side B and Up B, respectively. I'd also give him his voice from the DKC games!
I'd like to point out that Luigi is horribly designed. I've been saying since release that they gimped his movement and recovery options WAAY too hard. Since melee they've just been directly and indirectly neutering his movement so all we're left with now is remnants of a character that has failed to adapt to the mechanics of newer entries. From Melee to Brawl he lost wave-dashing, from Brawl to Smash 4 he got a decrease in vertical gain from cyclone and decreased aerial drift after Up-B. And in Ultimate, his traction is SUPER high and Cyclone has lost all movement and recovery utility. To make Luigi fun again, you literally just need to give him his Melee Wave dash back or allow Cyclone to rise and slide across the ground quickly so he'll have some options against speedy characters or zoners. With his current mobility, Luigi's special moves also have way too niche applications. Fireball has way too much ending lag for Luigi's slow ground and air speed, green missile has an absurd amount of ending lag and a terrible hitbox which combined with the nerfed Super jump punch and Cyclone makes his recovery extremely predictable.
But throughout all of Ultimate's life there has been an anti-Luigi agenda that insists Luigi has a "broken combo" so he doesn't need buffs to anything else. While failing to acknowledge that's his ONLY option, so if you don't know the combo as Luigi, the character barely functions, even casually.
Kazuya made me wish comeback mechanics had a toggle.
Bruh wtf were the creators on when they made kazuya like wtf..
A character with that much armor, that much damage, that much hit stun, also needed an invincible dash, an instant kill revenge mechanic, an up-b out of shield that kills off the top, the most egregious throw angle in the game, pretty good recovery, AND a reflector? Makes sense.
DLC money
Answer: They wanted to capture the essence of Tekken
Little mac isn't that poorly designed imo. I feel like the idea to make a fighter that really only stays on the ground in a platform fighter is hard enough to pull of that their interpretation was pretty acceptable.
LITTLE MAC
Sonic
Belmonts
Lucario
Ganon
Omg 2 right so far!!!
Minmin's up smash reflect projectiles because she is able to to do the same thing in ARMs
This entire list can be filled with everyone in the smash roster
Sora should've been on this list. I've only fought him thrice, and every single time it's the same scenario. His Fire and Thunder make him way too campy, he's got too strong of a recovery game, his FAir seems to come out almost right after he jumps, and the fact that his counter sends people behind him makes absolutely no sense in the world.
Lowkey wish they'd have chosen kh3 Sora for smash instead of his kh1 version. I love both designs but if he was taller, he'd be a little heavier and not as floaty imo. Him being so floaty means it takes like a million years for him to grab ledge, and even longer for his double jump to come out. Also his recovery (despite how great it is) can be predictable and beaten by counters, which is why the Sephiroth matchup sucks for him.
KH3 is a more floaty game then KH1 and most of the moves Sora uses in KH1 he can have in KH3 anyway.
Sephiroth is a terrible MU because Sora struggles with good zoners.
Sepy is faster with more range and he doesn't have to approach you. If he can reliably counter your recovery you're being predictable that's not Sora fault.
Sora was always going to be a floaty imo his game is all about high flying combat
And him being taller would not change that look at mew two
@@ivrydice0954 I agree, I'm not saying kh3 Sora would be less floaty cuz of the game itself, just his design and him being taller. It's more of a cope if anything lol. Besides, kh1 is the least floaty KH game and Sora is still extremely floating in smash. He doesn't float that much at all in kh1 so applying the logic of how the game works doesn't rly apply since it's clear they pulled stuff from all his games, and just kept the floatiness since it's the most consistent thing of all his other games.
@@eem2wavy133 true, good point. I guess I was hoping his air combos would be more comparable to Bayonetta not Mewtwo or Jigglypuff with a sword lol. I just really hate how long it takes him to grab ledge and how slow his double jump comes out. Ez frame traps.
When I read the title I thought the video would be talking about smash ultimate characters who look ugly lmao
Ganon, sonic, and young link are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head. ganon shouldn't still have falcon moves, sonic's moveset is just boring and could have been more unique( add some of the powers he gets in sonic adventure 2 to his moves or something), and pretty much the same thing for young link I think his moves could have included more of majoras mask theme to make him somewhat more unique.
Out of every character in fp2 fucking sephiroth was the only one they decided to give clear weaknesses to. The one character that deserved to be strong
Wahalli Luigi mains finally beat the bottom 5 design allegations
Your dhalsim example is just outright wrong. Min min’s arms don’t have hitboxes, only the gloves do and only on the way out, they do nothing on the way back. They really are simply projectiles that can’t be reflected, but are attached to you and thus you can’t shield, run, dodge or do other attacks until they’re back, and you can’t even walk or jump if it’s the smash version, you’re just a sitting duck. Plus many moves can clank them and give you a free approach against her.
i mean, are we not gonna talk about kazuyas absolutely garbage disadvantage? I mean, he has no options to get away from juggling. He has no landing options and you have to retreat to ledge or some other disadvantageous spot on the stage like a platform. Another point is ewgf. Sure, ewgf is the best move in smash. Ill agree with that. Incredible combo starter and has insane frame data. but the problem is how you even get to hitting the electric in the first place. It doesn't matter how busted a move is if you can't hit it. Theres a 2 frame window where you can input electric which doesn't sound too difficult till you realize smash is a 60fps game. You have 1/30th of a second to press a when you press df. Kazuya's neutral is also non existent he has the longest jumpsquat in the game at 7 FRAMES WHICH IS MORE THAN DOUBLE THE NORMAL JUMP SQUAT OF 3 FRAMES. Literally there are kazuya-unique combos because he takes so much longer to jump making his disadvantage that much worse. You can get ewgf from a grab at low percent, but you have to get close first which is hard to do when kaz has little to no approach options against most of the cast. You can get ewgf off of fair, nair, or bair but that means you have to be jumping first and we've already covered that. Kazuya isn't poorly designed in my opinion. He's a well designed character that makes you outplay your opponents and punish bad options with explosive combos. He makes you wait for an opening, make a read, play the slow game until its your turn, just like tekken. Wait your turn.
I've said it since they came out but I'm still sad that Banjo and Kazooie are so bad. The first game is one of my favorite games of all time and the fact that they're so bad just sucks
Counter Point: Kazuya is funny
Going in, I'm automatically going to look to compare this to MockRock's list
I don't necessarily agree with your list but I understand that your mainly judging them based off how they are in pro play. You should have called this "poorly designed characters in pro play" cause I think there are way worse designed characters like Lucario or Isabelle.
Never respect any Kazuya players. Carried bags
Min min just feels like an honest to god insult to the game's balance, like the developers just wanted to be damn secure her frame data would advertise for her. She has the most easy access and longest range of non projectile attacks and it isn't even a hurtbox extension despite literally being her stretching her arms. The worst part is that as you somewhat poke at the start of, the designers paid no heed to balancing her closer game out at all; she has little realistic trade off for the insanely large coverage her rangey attacks offer as she not only has fast ground attacks, but, as the most egregious middle finger she puts out, even has a reflector - on an attack that makes zero fucking sense being one, while already being an unreasonably good close killing option she doesn't deserve with her range coverage - making trying to counter-zone her even riskier than it already would be since she can just punch through projectiles.
All that being said, I'm not the most sighted on the matter; I stopped playing since before she was released. I don't have personal experience to go off of, only what I've seen. But I've seen a lot and quite frankly it makes me glad I don't play ultimate any more. I couldn't imagine how infuriating the free ledgeguarding and free get-off-me's are but it all stews up into an atrocious looking character. I may be somewhat biased as I just don't enjoy playing zoner characters at all as I said in another comment, but even still I find it hard to imagine how it's fun to deal with just being unable to do anything but try and dance around her.
little mac is a boxer he's supposed to be grounded he's a human, human boxers cant fight in the air but excel at grounded fighting he's a very well designed character in that aspect.
Holy moly the MegaMan legends music at the start sent me way back
Don't agree with any of these takes surprisingly. Characters with strong unique mechanics? Sure. The most unfun to fight against on average? Definitely. Poorly designed? That's a bit of a stretch. I feel like you definitely oversold a lot of their strengths while either not addressing or breezing over their weaknesses.
Whatever the theory behind the characters are, a character who's OP or excessively frustrating in practice is still badly designed.
@@juniperrodley9843 The problem with that as a metric is that it's subjective. Everyone finds some other character frustrating and can any of them even be considered OP when none of them have ever been thought of to be in the top 3?
I am surprised u had me there with lil Mac and sonic to a degree but the rest not "not poorly designed " they are overly design I thought u would mention olimar or pichu or any that have a built in design fla2
I’m thinking Sonic, Kazuya, Mac, Steve, Luigi, Game and watch, and Min min. Any of those
I really dislike Kazuya - not a fun character to watch
Pretty much agree, over design can be poor design.
Though as my old co-main, Hero needs to be replaced over Sonic.
Sonic ain't that bad and has to commit far harder than in Smash 4.
Kaz is what happens when you are too faithful to the source material. This has always been Sakurai's flaw. He is more concern about being faithful than making a good design character. He isn't a bad guy but I'm happy to see we are getting someone else for the next Smash game.
fast forward, the next smash director makes the game even more busted. .
Kazuya doesn't have invul in Tekken or a Reflector or an unblockable rage drive.
Don't get it twisted Sakurai took a lot of creative liberties.
@@ivrydice0954 I can´t see Namco complaining about it.
So you want Smash to be a generic fighting game?
I wouldnt say steve and kazuya are poorly designed, in fact i think their design and approach to implementing them is fantastic but they are heavily overtuned. Steve using his blocks in many ways in combat is pretty reflective of playing minecraft in both a casual PvE setting and top level MC pvp but being able to place blocks mid air is where i think its too busted honestly and unintuitive if youve played MC a lot and know they cant be placed just in mid air. Kazuya i think is a character that is well made to have extreme complexity to him and difficult to play which can appeal to many people since some like high skill ceilings, its not that anything in his kit is necessarily poorly designed its just heavily overtuned. If you wanna talk characters that are poorly designed in context of smash Olimar is a big candidate since it can be difficult to get reads of what he will do with certain attacks due to the silhouettes of him and pikmin obscuring each other and the power of attacks not being reflected well in sound design or animation since his pikmin can be super strong but aren't shown to be sine they are so small and dinky and also it is difficult to try and draw source material to make a good moveset for him. I can agree a lot with sonic since his moveset is very bland and generic without using much source material but that wasnt mentioned, can agree with little mac since he is a grounded character in a mostly aerial game, and min min for betraying basic principles of what a zoner should be would makes her too strong. However you say they're mostly poorly designed from a competitive aspect which doesnt make the characters poorly designed overall since they are introduced to be fun characters in some party game first and characters in a competitive game second.
What about Lucario?
You know he doesn’t play magic when he says “touch of death” instead of “death touch”
Where are the Aegises
Kazuya isn’t as badly designed as Brawl Meta Knight. Kazuya has losing matchups
More than half of this roster is badly designed, and it's peak cope to not acknowledge it.
I guess it depends on what your criteria is, but I honestly think the worst designed character has gotta be Ganondorf. There's decades of source material to draw upon for his moveset, but very little of it is reflected in Smash and instead we still just have a slower Falcon with big swordy smash attacks. His neutral B and Uptilt are some of the worst moves in the game, and he has almost no tools to help him approach or get out of disadvantage. His one saving grace is that he kills early, but most heavies already do that while having some other trait/gimmick that makes them unique (Bowser's tough guy, DK cargo throw, K Rool's reflector/armor, etc). And of course him being bottom tier is just the icing on the cake.
If we do end up getting another Smash game, I would love to see Ganon get a major rework and actually become his own character.
Still, he can be very fun to play as at least.
If only they didn’t add him to melee/didn’t rush melee.
You were doing good with the first two and then you added the last three which I'm just ?????
At worst those three characters are overtuned and not balanced like the rest of the game, which is completely different from being "poorly designed" since their design isn't the actual issue, unlike Little Mac where he's just borderline dysfunctional and Sonic where he plays the way he does. I genuinely feel that Min Min, Kazuya and Steve are moreso a sign that the rest of the roster are the ones that are poorly designed, or stuck with very dated design philosophies. Personally I'd swap out the last three with Ganondorf, Lucario and even Dr. Mario.
Also on a side note, Min Min's reflect is based on her actual move ARMS. Idk why Kazuya gets one though but it's a bit funny if not way too overtuned (as with all reflects imo)
As a sonic fan, sonic in smash makes me sad because his moveset is just so dull, it's been barely changed from brawl and there he was a last minute addition
bro where is olimar
At least the Miis are safe... for now.
At least their moveset is not as underwhelming like Sora's.. He's literally the final character for smash and his moveset is absolute trash
on point. would be exactly my list too, with honorable mentions to g&w, r.o.b. and plant.
idk i dont think any of those three characters are THAT egregious in terms of design.
but bring up luigi, aegis, or banjo? NOW we got a conversation going lol
@@firewall5189 luigi and banjo i can see. I think aegis is fine except for stuff like mythras slowmo airdodge. The character is just too good, but not bad designed.
In explanation for my mentions:
- plant only relies on gimmicks and has way to bad normals/combos. (i guess Banjo is similar, but plant is way worst imo).
- rob just has way to good attacks all around for how he is designed, gyro is broken und pretty toxic in itself and side-b has just a janky amount of base-knockback
- g&w is designed to be absurdly save with his nair and upair that win almost every arial interaction, smashattacks that have basicly no endlag (+upsmash with i-frames) and the up-b with invicibility, that is as fast as his airdodge (and that does not put you into freefall). At the same time he has no great tools to engage the opponent proactivly. making it so, that g&w-player most of the time just spam moves and gamble on the enemy to jump into them or attacking around him with something, that his up-b can punish, which i find to be pretty bad design.
@@MrBobxxl fair enough, fair enough, good explanations. i main plant so i suppose i let my bias get in the way a bit. though i genuinely think my boy has a decent bit more going for him than most people realize.
@@firewall5189 i'm sure you're right about that. Its really are to see plant. Anyways props for maining him. I like plant a lot too, but in some matchups and especial against swordies and small characters i well like it is impossible to have fun with it.
@@MrBobxxl as a rob main, ur kinda right ngl, but how is gyro toxic?
I find it funny that the top 3 are dlc from fighter pass 2
Just shut up. Shut up fighter pass 2, shut up about dlc, shut up about everything. I can’t deal with the stress I see from these comments. They are so hard to maintain in my head. I just want people to stop being like this. It hurts me.
@@mordeymay3739 are you alright
@@mordeymay3739 It's not that serious little bro
Our lists were way different but at least we agree Kazuya is more poorly designed than Steve
Before we start, my 5 in no order are
Luigi
Falcon
Terry
Kazuya
Hero (i love hero but come on his down b is literally a menu it's pretty bad)
1:27
I thought Steve couldn't either?
Cloud and Luigi also have horridly bad designs
I seldom agree completely with lists like these, but in this instance I do 100%. It's ultimately not about power or win rate, it's about how the core design keeps a character from functioning in an interactive and balanced way. I'd give the dragon quest hero an honorable mention, for the degree of rng.
gonna guess
steve
little mac (got spoiled)
sonic
kazuya
luigi
Little Mac needs a few buffs
other 4 need to be nerf especially Kazuya
I'm sure he'll mention Lucario. I honestly feel like Lucario is a secret hugh tier.
Nah character is garbage, losing is your win condition
@@Sidney_TSG and in a game where he can get killed early (from superheavies, to base game top-tier combos, to DLCs), you're gonna have to fight for that comeback mechanic
Noooo 😭 the first controller is cursed. The back button only makes me sd
Kazuya was made OP on purpose for the exact same reasons that Metaknight was OP in Brawl. He was obviously made so strong as a joke, but also as a last fuck you to the tournament scene because they knew he would never be banned in competitive.
(Props for the Apple Market OST from MML btw.)
9:57
What!?
Personally I think that Steve, banjo, joker, parana plant, kazua, sora shouldn't have been in smash. Banjo and Steve especially because they are Microsoft owned ip's and they are bad character designs.
"I think two of the most requested characters in Smash history shouldn't have been in because they belong to a corpo I don't like" 🤓
Dumbest take ever, you are the ultimate smash fan
@@mr.monkey354 ok to be fair I was probably too hard. On everyone but Steve. I just can't stand him specifically. Also us this a compliment or an insult?
@@demorunnertimmedrt4432 insult, because every other fan is an absolute caveman
Also hating Minecraft isn't "cool" anymore
@@mr.monkey354 look you are either misunderstanding, or I'm stupid. But I don't recall ever saying I hate Minecraft (but legacy console edition is best version.) But I personally think Steve doesn't work in smash.
I definitely disagree with kazuya and Steve being poorly designed, the problem is that they’re TOO well designed. They don’t play smash, they play their respective game IN smash. There’s a reason why people say Steve plays creative mode because he literally does. Same thing with kazuya, he plays like he would in tekken, look at any competitive tekken match, it’s both players trying to feel eachother out and the moment one of them get a string on the other boom 2 thirds of the oppononts health is gone. Also if you look at kazuyas animations they’re AMAZING same with Steve, it’s like they pulled them out straight out of their respective game. They’re extremely well designed. Now what I don’t think is good design is the amount of intangibility he has that’s not really accurate or faithful to tekken that’s just dlc privilege
They're badly designed BECAUSE they don't play smash. I agree they should take heavily from their original game. But when that doesn't translate well into smash, then something needs to be changed for them to fit into smash. They're well designed for their own games, but that doesn't mean they're well designed for this one. Characters need to adapt to the game they're in, or else the game won't play well.