The Mysterious Dodecahedrons of the Roman Empire
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- UPDATE: Follow up video now at: • Mystery Object Reveale...
My take on the mysterious dodecahedrons (dodedcahedra) of the Roman Empire, showing how archaeologists have been unable to resolve this for almost a century (if not even longer). Like many other archaeological conundrums it's just been going round in a circle. Do add your ideas to the comments!
I showed this video to a friend who knits and she agrees that the dodecahedron, knobs and all, could quite easily be used for 'spool knitting' wool. She observed that the diameter of the resulting knitted tube would match the diameter of the hole on the dodecahedron that the knitter chose to use. Interestingly, my friend called the dodecahedron a 'kit' - an efficient and aesthetic way to bring together 12 holes of varying diameters into one portable and convenient unit. Never having seen a dodecahedron before, she immediately saw it as simply a collection of holes rather than a more complex integrated object. She agreed that a child could have done this type of knitting (spool knitting, tomboy stitch, French knitting ) Has anyone ever tried spool knitting with a dodecahedron or a replica ?
None of those found has wear marks, that clearly rules it out.
@@nictamer Sure, wire might leave wear marks but wool, leather or linen thread probably would not. Besides, some dodecahedrons are found broken - possibly through wear and tear.
@@peterkarargiris4110 it definitely would if it was in regular use. It would be possible that some were not actually employed in their intended use and show no wear, but again, none of them shows any kind of wear whatsoever.
@@nictamer Ok, I'm only going by what Guy is telling us here. I'm not at all familiar with the world corpus of dodecahedrons. So, do you have any better ideas ?
@@nictamer So they were templates for ones that were sold on ?
A jewelry maker saw these woven tubes in a museum the Romans for some reason liked. I didn't know they existed. She figured it out. If you stick a dowel in the tube, the knobs can be used to weave these tubes and the woven tubes moved onto the dowels as produced. The different sizes weave different sized tubes. They don't make sense until you see the end product which exists. I thought it may have been for weaving something, but there were a lot better ways to weave fishing and hunting nets. As it turned out, it wasn't for something with utility. It is for jewelry. Look at the person who commented below.
There is a great video on YT where a woman demonstrates all of this. The results are amazing!
(Solved? The Roman Dodecahedron) look up the video👈..The theory they were made to make ornate chains, as in for necklaces made from gold of copper is theoretically the most plausible. Reason being they are not wood, they are bronze for a reason as they need to work with soft metals..Often found with hoards of coins, and a waxy substance would aid as a lubricant...Because Dodecahedrons were within the Roman empire does not mean they are Roman, they could be of other groups who opposed Romans yet were apart of the Roman empire...
Yes, by far the most plausible, practical and coherent explanation...
It's an excellent video and yes, the lady's demonstration is wholly convincing and a pleasure to watch.
I make trichinopoly (aka Viking knit) wire chains and I do believe you could use the dodecahedrons as a device to start a chain and the varying sized holes would work quite well as a draw plate to tighten and even out the knit. Plus it could also be used as a knitting dolly as well for cord. The bronze versions that have been found in the archaeological record, may be the high end version that survived. Cheap wooden versions probably broke semi frequently and were tossed in the fire.
I think that's a very interesting comment, and - yes - wooden versions would have had virtually no chance of surviving: a very good example of how the archaeogical record is unavoidably distorted.
People have shown us the beautiful process of creating amazing chains with this lovely tool ♥️♥️
People have shown us the beautiful process of creating amazing chains with this lovely tool ♥️♥️
There is a video on YT wherein a woman does just this. The results are amazing.
Small, multi-sided, different sized holes and corner knobs, that is a lot of fine work for a metal worker. Maybe it is a "Master Piece" unit to show the metal workers skill level ?
As a young guy I was a caster of jewellery.
This shape would be an exceptionally difficult thing to cast in any of the methods I am familiar with.
It would be odd to fix on this shape though.
Possibly as good a guess as any.
They’d be lost wax cast. So pretty simple method. Just need to make the wax base form.
@@dingodog5677
I did that for a living.
This shape would be extremely hard to do.
I've a clear idea how I would do it with modern material and methods but using natural materials?
It would definitely be extremely different and difficult.
That's what a masterpiece was intended to be.
Why repeat the knobs and holes ? I would think a "Master Piece" would demonstrate more skills.
@@28704joe
Why?
It could be someone, like an apprentice master, had go no go gauges that they used to test the accuracy of the hole sizes.
Then a local set of these would have sizes that fit that masters requirement?
We just don't know.
It's clear that there was something about this shape that was significant and that includes the holes and knobs.
One of the points of the video seems to be that there is a difference between the original purpose of an object and how we can imagine its having been used. For example, one could think of a dozen uses for a modern "fidget spinner" that had nothing to do with its original purpose. This is hinted at in the candle holder explanation: even if someone in Roman times used one as a candle holder, that doesn't mean that the intended purpose -- even then -- was as a candle holder. Speculation is necessary in some cases, but it's important not to think too far afield without documentary support.
Oh, I was really hoping you would discuss the knitting theory. i personally, having cared for children, would not give them a throwable metal object if I could avoid it. Though I suppose glass windows were less common, sibling heads would not be. lol
No researcher takes the knitting theory seriously as knitting was invented in the 11th century.
Our first evidence for it is 1100s but probably started earlier. Not sure this early though.
How ever they formed and cast that it’s just mind blowing 🤯
Casting is a 7,000-year-old process. The oldest surviving casting is a copper frog from 3200 BC. Now go and get your mind repaired, try a school perhaps.
@@imwelshjesus I’m 14 yrs old !I will learn that later on I guess at high school 👍
Ignore Welsh Jesus, you are right to be amazed at the casting.
I used to work casting jewellery and I was very good at it.
This shape would have been extremely difficult to cast.
The only way I can see to do it would be to make the internal shape, with pegs in place of the holes, out of clay then build the object out of wax on the outside surface.
Once you had that clay and wax you would then cover it with more clay.
Bake this in a Kiln and the wax would melt out leaving the shape you want as an empty space.
Then cast the bronze into the empty space.
To get all the empty space full with bronze without any holes would, with this shape, be extremely and I mean EXTREMELY hard.
It's awful for someone to mock you for using your brain.
@@bobkoroua to rite 😎cheers 😇
I think it was a game, a small wooden ball or pebble could be put inside and then bets could be cast on whether the pebble would stay in or come out when the dodecahedron was rolled like a dice. That would not require any markings or measurements, could be possessed by anyone with some means, and games die out over time.
@cpmf2112 Interesting idea, but wouldn't the knobs prevent the dodecahedron from rolling ?
@@peterkarargiris4110 they would probably stop it from rolling more than a couple turns, right. The more it rolls the more probable that the ball would come out so just one or two turns before stopping.
@@cpmf2112 Ok, I see. I'm sure Guy will keep us all entertained when he gets his replica and tries some of our suggestions out. Good thinking.
Braiding gold wire is not just for jewelry. It also puts the gold into a form that can be easily traded.
Fascinating. They certainly would not have been easy to cast which to me implies perhaps something non trivial.
Really enjoyed your video - very interesting and liked your perspective from an archaeological point of view !
Very expensive toy for a very young child of 2 - 4 years
I imagine they would not be easy to make, so must be important.
I like the explanation that guesses they were used in the making of braided jewelry. Why they were only used in formerly Celtic lands IDK, if they were used as a means to braid wires, you would imagine they would be useful in making braided wire jewelry elsewhere in the Roman world. Maybe braided wire jewelry wasn't popular enough outside the Celtic region to be locally produced, or they had their own local technics for making braided wire jewelry that suited their jewelry makers just fine. (Here I'm imagining an old Roman Greek in Anatolia somewhere saying "we don't need those newfangled dodecahedrons to make our bracelets. My father never had a dodecahedron to make bracelets and neither did his father before him, if the old way was good enough for them, well, it good enough for me too", or something like that.)
Weaving or something is my guess as well, but I can't explain the need for 12 sides where the only change is the size of the hole.
@@Les537 and there are no wear patterns on any of them that would indicate them being used for any sort of "process", either weaving or braiding or anything else.
It was definitely considered a failure and was never widely adopted. Bad idea that broke someone's bank account.
@@grantschiff7544 But persisted over a four hundred year period? And they were widely adopted, but only north of the alps.
@bubarowe I'm kidding around. Interesting mystery. Some kind of throwing weapon? Dowel measurement tool? Completely forgotten in time.
We know that Romans used the so called Caesar cypher where a message was written on a strip of paper that had to be wound around a stick of the right size to be written or read. Could this have been used to hold a stick of the right size? That would explain the lack of wear (not used heavily) and why the holes (or markings in some cases) were different sizes. Different message senders would have different sized sticks and it would make sense if the dodecahedrons were matched between different parties wanting to send messages. Essentially, the wooden stick was the key to the message and the sender and receiver would both have stick of the same size. If I wanted to hold the stick in place, a bit of wax would be perfect too. The wooden sticks would have rotted away so all that we have left is the bronze. Each would allow communication with 6 other people.
But only used by the northern tribes and never mentioned in any Roman writing?
@@bubarowe I could make an argument that you would want better message security in the provinces... and documenting how you keep secrets doesn't seem like a great idea :)
And how come they, and their holes, are all different sizes?
@@supplican :) It only makes sense if they are all different sizes. Let us assume that an individual needs to send messages to multiple people. They would need holes that matched the sticks used by those people - you each have a copy of the stick because that is how a Caesar cypher works. A different person would need a different set of hole sizes because they talked to different people. Also, if a set of sticks and dodecahedron were lost to an adversary, you would want to make a new one with different sized holes to prevent them decoding new messages. The yellow wax makes sense in two possible ways. The one that I thought of first was to hold the stick steady but what is the first thing that you would do when you got a message? You would decrypt it and write it down on a wax tablet and we know that they used yellowish wax in those. I would expect them to be used with wax in the area - and when dodecahedrons are found together, that could be a message hub or they could be old ones that had been replaced.
Wow! That is a brilliant suggestion!
Ancient Roman version of a garden gnome.
An apprentice metalworker's piece, is my guess.
Accurate, scale reproductions of these, in bronze, are available (from stores online). I'm tempted to get one and do some experiments. They remind me of a 'tomboy knitter' or 'spool knitter' used to do French knitting, where a ring surrounded by a series of pegs (like the knobs) is used to knit a woolen tube. I'm not an expert on knitting, but that was my initial impression. The dodecahedrons are hand sized and very portable. Are they always made of bronze or are other metals employed ? Fascinating video Guy. Many thanks.
You’ve made some good points Guy.
The dodecahedron has no instructions on it.
People were taught to use the dodecahedron by someone who already knew how to use it.
At some point the dodecahedron was the most efficient way of doing something.
We have no reason to believe adults were the users.
It could have been a teaching device.
We’ve found a better way to do whatever it’s purpose is or no longer do whatever it was used for.
12 sides, each face is different , 12 hours in the day. Maybe a time measuring device.
That is the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.
...holier only than the Blessed Bird-Killer of Bruges.
And the lord did grin…
The distinctive protrusions wouldn't be needed for the proposals here, so why were they added? All these proposals seems to focus solely on the holes and so are probably incorrect. I would suggest googling 'circular crochet loom' as this looks way more probable to me and they are still used today.
Some of them don't have holes though.
I think it could be a gaming dice. The different sized holes could represent the different values, perhaps representing coins.
That was my first guess too
Romans are known to be fond of gambling. Even the Bible sites Roman soldiers gambling for Jesus's clothing at the crucifixion. Like dice, with 6 sides, each with a unique number, here there are 12 unique sides each with a different hole size. Each player would have a different hole size that he would have to roll to win. There would have been many different games with different rules. The owner of the dodecahedron may have functioned like "The House" of a casino, luring other soldiers to gamble with it. With 12 sides, there are 12 unique outcomes of each roll, just like using 2 dice when playing Craps today.
First iteration of Golf. It wasn't a success.
This is the best explanation I have heard yet. Sometimes I feel I am playing with a Titleist dodecahedron.
The invention of the club was the Aha! moment for sure.
One UA-cam video summises it/them as a codex. He makes and interesting video with code deciphering to clandestinely transmit messages.
Corner pieces for temporary structures like tents. They are not found in Italy proper because they were used on campaigns. The different sized holes were to accommodate different sized poles as needed.
I also thought is was for braiding or rope making, with the strands fed through the holes and coming out together and then the device rotated to twist the threads into one. The additional knobs on could also help with threading or tying around for stability.
The other thought was whether it was a gaming device. You could get a lot of spin on it and i guess it would make a whirring sound when thrown so maybe it's just for fun.
Mundane enough no one comments on them at the time yet valuable enough they end up in hoards.... The trouble with all the practical mundane uses suggested is it is usually much easier, more practical and cheaper to make tools/toys entirely out of wood clay or bone and make a set of holes rather than make a complicated structure
You are using a modern value structure of time and resources, surely? Labour was immeasurably cheaper in antiquity. Bronze was endlessly recycled and there were countless itinerant tinkers who carried around their tools with them. There was a hoard of such a brooch maker's wor k-in-progress found in Norfolk (Old Buckenham). That doesn't preclude the possibility that there were many, many more examples of children's toys made of materials that don't survive. We usually are in the dark when it comes to perishables, but let's not forget there was also a hierarchy of materials just as there were wooden bowls and plates, ceramic bowls and plates, silver bowls and plates, and glass.
@@ClassCiv Well you do have me there, I was trying to think of all the toys and tools I see in museums (Admittedly they are already a particular selection of rare survivors). I guess all the recycling also makes it impossible to do metallurgical analysis to see how far they have come etc, which would be informative? Though on the toy point looking up the roman dice towers as a sort of 'toy' they have been found in a range from ceramic to lucky wood finds up to to bronze and silver so I think the lack of range of materials is still strange for a toy. Also if things are being forced in wouldn't you expect a series of small dents round the rims when the child does not get it quite right? Though thinking about it a bronze toy would survive rolling and dropping better than other materials and following up on your game idea and @ashcross could they be a dice roller? Maybe it could work on an unprepared uneven surface unlike dice towers. You hold it in your hand, put in your unbalanced roman dice, spin it in your hand and then drop it, the outside balls allow leveling and the dice drop out the bottom hole, you lift it up to reveal the dice (no one directly touches the dice and gets a pugio in the ribs for being a gambling cheat, same concept as the dice towers). The size of the holes does not matter too much (does not explain the one with no holes and no one has found them with dice it seems) and it would explain wide distribution and hoard association but a lack of spread to other cultural areas (no one wants to play dice the foreign way). Admittedly that could all be another silly theory, your youtube videos are informative and great. Thank you!
@@ClassCivYou are far more knowledgeable on this subject than myself, but I can't help but think that bronze, as common and recyclable as it is, would still be on the expensive/over doing it side of the equation for a childs toy.
Bronze (and its cousin brass) are far more available in this day and age and we still generally reserve its use on things that almost nothing else is compatible with. I'm just thinking that a more realistic use of the material would be for a tool or implement that couldn't (reliably) be made of less durable, easier to get stuff.
Again, far be it from me to second guess your vast knowledge and experience on the subject, I'm just offering my thoughts. Yes, I know I'm applying modern standards here, but bronze is much easier to get a hold of today, and we still very rarely use it for frivolous things.
I have no guess on what it was used for so a toy is as good a guess as a ritual implement. ;)
Thank you for posting your videos. I always enjoy watching and learning from them. :)
Toys get beat up. Definitely not toys. It was considered a bad idea at the time and it's use wasn't widely adopted. Dead-end item.
For me, their similarity to the Neolithic stone balls of northern Europe, as well as this point:' the majority have been found in northern Europe and Britain, and none have been found in Italy', seem like significant clues.
My Archaeology courses such things would have an '"Obvious religious function." I doubt that has changed the 50 or so years since I took those courses.
It has.
One was found on a dig I worked on in Oxfordshire in the 90s. Extraordinary object to find, so beautiful, and an enigma to interpret! I do wonder if they're something to do with weights or sizes for ingots but, like everyone else, I can only guess.
Arrow shafts
It undoubtedly originated from a single northern tribe ( or highly localized area) assimilated into Rome. As tribal members moved within northern Rome the device moved with them. It wasn’t as practical as whatever else was being used so it died out… being kept alive only as a simple reminder of their ancient past…while perishable materials…wood. Etc. would not have survived--other non-perishable materials…pottery…lead… would have and…while not a pottery person… certainly something similar could have been made using fired clay….perhaps wired together….so the apparent fact that they only made of a somewhat expensive material (at least according to the internet)… gives un- decipherable clues that they are likely a more ornamental rather than practical applications…the absence of paint or shiny things makes it unlikely to be a bit of personal clothing…like a scarf holder…
Sizing tool for drumsticks.
Cheeky drummer here.
That's exactly what I said it was within the first five minutes of your presentation. It reminded me exactly of an almost identical version my daughter had when she was very young, albeit made of plastic (obviously).
Tupperware made a shape sorter called "Shape O Ball" in the 80's which might be similar to the toy you're thinking of. I agree it's very like one of these dodecahedra.
I see the similarity but those plastic balls were a lot larger than the dodecahedrons which seem like they would be too small for young children learning shapes.
The different sized holes always remind me of the hole in a pasta spoon, used for measuring…
My guess is a kind of dice. You could stick coins to it, with wax, (wax was mentioned ) and toss. The owner of the coin on top takes it all. 12 faced dices are still used today 🙂👍
The thing they remind me of most are the similarly enigmatic neolithic carved stone balls found in various sites in Orkney. Whatever their purpose (more than likely religious) could they be an evolved version with the circular features in negative rather than protruding blobs, for want of a better word!
I also made a similar comparison in a comment. I wonder if the stone balls demonstrated the skill level of the creator. Might those balls have entitled the creator to a certain status or perhaps demonstrated marriageability? For instance might they have been gifts to prospective spouses? If these items had special ritual significance, might dodecahedrons have served the same purpose at a later time? Possible.
It’s a stylus holder and parchment weight for a desk.🖋 😊
The different size holes makes it easier to find a handle the thing is a back scratcher
I would have use it as a corn holder , corn to drink was a personal item , so a guest would turn the object to fit his horn on the table . Is not a great idea but it fits the geography for beer and mead .
I mean horn , sorry
I have no particular belief in this, but I thought I'd mention the lupus of archeological interpretations: Perhaps it has ritual use or significance in the northern regions, but lacked the cultural context in Italia to catch on. Because yes, Dr House, sometimes it really is lupus.
Never expected to see a House MD reference in a Roman archaeology comment section!
@@rattusrattusrattus6883 I couldn't resist the opportunity, cheers! ;)
Many have suggested these things were range finders. The farther north one goes, the more extreme the seasons. For instance there is the midnight sun of summer and the few hours of daylight in winter. I wonder if the slightly varying sizes of holes had anything to do with gauging the return of the sun through the dark winter months?
As a 1st impression, maybe they're a construction thingy. Like for a tent: a central attachement point for poles. A General Purpose configuration.
Pardon me if it was already stated, but what were they made of? Are all metal, clay, ?
Are the locations of each find dated? When mapped, do they coincide with, say, a contemporary frontier line, or how about a manor house?
That's a pretty cool toy! Maybe too cool.
Great vid! 'Hope "my 2 cents" were useful.
Dowel rod shaver or shaft straightener. For wooden pins poles and arrows.
First Impression. Looks like a game piece. Other pieces are missing, or made of materials that decomposed.
As a sometime Roman re-enactor, who has also done a fair bit of bronze casting and mold making, I have to point out that these would be particularly difficult to make using Roman casting methods. The amount of work to hand mold and carve the wax, invest it, without the big chunk of investment in the center getting air bubbles in it, and then get a successful casting. Then cleaning and chasing all the surfaces, including the interior ones, is far higher then making complex fibula. They would have been somewhat expensive. The sort of thing a specialist would need for a very specific purpose. Most of these ideas could be solved in far simpler ways. I like the knitting idea. It’s very specific, and in northern climes, everyone needs socks. If it’s a tool to make things for sale, it’s worth the extra labor making it.
Would these things have been cast whole or in sections that were soldered together? I Googled this subject awhile back and read one source that said dodecahedrons have also been found in southeast Asia. I could not find any images of these, nor other source material. But they do remind me of Thai silver beads, of which I have a lot. None of them are dodecahedrons, but there are similarities, including nubs at corners.
Except for the fact that there is zero evidence the Romans ever knitted anything.
Someone in a comment here said she does "trichinopolis", a Viking wire weaving technique. I googled this art and it is easy to see how the dodecahedrons could be used this way. Modern kits even provide boards with holes of varying sizes, coincidentally 12 holes! But the sizes have a wider range than those found on the dodecahedrons.
There is a video on YT where a woman uses a dodecahedron to create and size a woven wire piece. It is fascinating.
If these items were not created for this purpose, I bet they have been used for that sometime in history.
An argument against this is that it is said there are no signs of wear on the dodecahedrons and I think there would be if they were frequently used with metal wires, even soft metals like gold or silver.
A weak spot in the idea these gadgets were used for knitting is, the tension, thus the size of any tube or glove fingers created, would be the size created from the knobs. The hole size would not count. All tubes made on any side of a dodecahedron would have the same dimensions because knob placement is the same all around the article. I believe it would be cumbersome to stuff the fingers of gloves through the holes. The only advantage I could see MIGHT be when the fingers are attached to the palm of a glove. That can be a bit difficult.
Agree it was used for knitting
You would think we would find one knitting needle from before the 11th century. We do not.
I'd always thought they were for easily creating tripods, using whatever poles were available. You could easily erect one for cooking under, or a simple wigwam type thing?
I have seen a modern video of a woman that braided a string with it. If i remember correct she was from a Baltic country and in the video she said it were a traditional braiding tool.
Yes, it's an interesting idea but I'd have thought if it was that functional then similar items would have remained in use since antiquity.
@@ClassCivAnd others don't have holes, so they could not have been used for knitting.
Also they are usually found in military situations or graves. Seems like they were valued objects
Thank you, Guy for confirming my idea.
Just Found your channel today, bloody brilliant I say. Keep up the amazing work. greetings from Spain/Hispania.
Two of those dodecahedrons and five sticks and you can make an easy tent. The small knobs are for tying the sticks firmly and also for tying the tent material to.
Just a guess, but I think these were used in a game of some kind that we no longer understand.
I was thinking they could be used as a simple tool for gambling. A ball that only fits through certain holes could be put inside. The Dodecahedra could then be rolled or slammed down on a table. If the hole on the bottom face is a hole the ball fits through it'll fall out when picked up and you lose. Of course this doesn't hold up if some dodecahedra have been found without holes.
I'm picking we will spend a billion dollars unwrapping the Herculaneum scrolls and the main thing we'll discover is a treatise on the use of the Dodecahedron, and humans are so curious it will be regarded as money well spent just for that.
Fishing "reel" could be an option. Different holes for different poles.
I also have a cube with different diameter holes of stone for holding all candle sizes from birthday to big tapers. It goes in a matching box but that isn't necessary for purpose, just catching wax.
Arrow straighters, rope twisters, or whatever else needs a hole. The macrame stuff is iffy, pretty cumbersome. I could use a hair comb in a loom too, doesn't mean it is practical.
I think the child's toy is the best description we've heard so far. Thank you!
Agree.
@@jimplummer4879 Except knowing how unsympathetic children are with toys I would expect to find a lot more wear and damage on them. They are going to have been bashed, had things stuck in the holes. given to the dog . . . . and why particularly in the Celtic regions? Romans had children too . . .
Before I see what it reminds Guy of by way of his example, I'd like to say what it reminds me of: a toy we'd buy for our young children where they would learn about shapes of objects. It was a colorful, plastic item with different shapes the child could drop through a like-shaped hole, such as stars, ovals, pentagons, octagons, etc. The "modern" version has two spring loaded, yet connected halves that could be pulled apart to access the shapes now found inside. Unlikely, I know, but that's is what it reminds me of.
Yeah! They were invented specifically to screw with that reaction girl who was very disappointed when he wouldn't put the shape in the correct hole. Just a bit early.
I am sure my knotting-mad late mother had something vaguely similar that slid onto a knitting needle. From all the comments so far, it looks likely whatever this doohickey was meant for involved some sort of tubular/cylindrical weaving of some sort of material. My ha'porth would be for making some sort of fabric tubes, possibly the fingers for gloves ? In which case - ceremonial garb aside - is there any suggestion these are more prevalent in slightly colder/damper climates ? E2A: "Not found south of the Alps" 😃
This screams gambling device. At 8 cm across and weighing half a pound it is not a toy, if thrown some kid gets hurt. For gamblers its great. Flipping a coin works fine for 2 people to make a bet to double their money, but with 12 sides, 12 people can bet and win 11 times their bet. Very appealing to many gamblers. The device would be rolled on the ground, like a dice, with the side landing up the winner. Also gambling devices are notoriously crooked. While appearing that all sides would have an equal chance at winning, while over a night of gambling the lightest side would have a slight advantage (probably the side with the largest hole). The owner who provides the device for others to bet with would make money through a variety of "rules of play" just like a modern casino. Made of bronze, shine, large and heavy with protruding feet it would be fun to watch the exciting play. Add a little wine, etc and its a fun night.
They look really heavy and just already had dice. Maybe it was for giants playing d&d?
@@chesthoIe They had dice, but the odds of rolling 2-12 are much different with dice with 2 & 12 being rare outcomes and 7 being the most likely outcome. With a 12 sided device it would appear that betting any number 1-12 would have an equal outcome. I think this is more like roulette. This game would appeal to some people who liked to bet small amounts against winning a larger pot = 12 times your bet.
Couldn’t it simply be a neat paperweight.
Nobody writes about paperweights.
You don’t need to learn to use one.
The size of the holes doesn’t matter
the colour could be whatever you want.
All that matters is the mass and the shape.
Romans didn't have paper.
They had parchment though.
@@somniumisdreaming All that pounded meat blowing about in the wind. Tumble skins they were nicknamed.
I would love to hear a more detailed discussion regarding knitting or wire knitting. And related, what wear would we expect, and what wear is observed. I don't believe for a moment that none of these artifacts have any wear at all!
I have a hypothesis about what this 'mysterious Roman dodecahedron' may have been used for. Have you heard of 'tatting'? It's a kind of 'knitting', done using pegs around a small hole which produces knitted woolen 'tubes'. I think this dodecohedron may well have been used for 'knitting' (or 'tatting') the fingers of woolen gloves for poor old Roman soldiers who were suffering from the cold.
I notice the holes are all different sizes, allowing one to choose whichever hole is going to produce the best fit for each particular finger. (And twelve holes, where only five might be considered necessary, would have allowed a wider range of sizes...)
Someone once mentioned the possibility of them being used for games. What if there are game pieces missing, such as a set of wooden wooden balls? You would make a toss of this kit with a wooden ball of a certain size, and if it landed with a hole big enough for that ball to go through the bottom, you'd get a result of some sort.
"... pentagon [sic] panels ..." -- "pentagonal"
Love to know more about where they were found, what if any did the locations have in common, has any signs of food prep ever been seen, if near a water source might it be used as a form of hatchery providing protection from attacks by predator species? Is it known how they were made and what tools were required to do so?
My guess is that device could be used to repair chain mail. Mail was different sizes,smaller links for flexibility, larger or thicker for better protection of vital areas.
Portable ruler/measurement device that can take knocks
Has the metal been analyzed to see were it was manufactured
Ah, my favorite Time Team Roman historian! ❤
I still have my copy of Liddell and Scott from my undergraduate degree in Classics.
Could it be equivalent to a Freemason ring? An artifact of a relatively small and secretive organization. Something members were awarded or just carried for identification? Maybe one had to construct one's own Dodecahedron to be part of the club?
None of the videos I've seen bother describing the complete picture, including this one. All of the ones I've seen are just the individual making their guesses as to purpose, but don't tell the viewer anything that would really help them to understand them.
First, what is the distribution? So far, there's the suggestion that they've all been found north of the Alps...that's some information, but insufficient.
Second, it's been said that there is no wear on any of them. Is this true? If so, that means they weren't used for drawing wire or cord through them, or there would be wear.
Third, how many of them have holes, and how many have none? How many have different sized holes, and how many have just one size? Same goes for the protrusions.
Fourth, what type of sites were they found in?
My list could be in a different order, but these are questions I want answers to, so I can make an educated guess, and not be like all the idiots making random guesses based on nothing. It is idiotic to make guesses, without gathering as much info as possible. At this point, I don't have enough info.
I have the same questions and thought to express them in a comment, however my comment went a different direction.
A game of chance, all the players take a random selection of appropriately sized sticks. The lucky participant who has the correct size is the winner. Being spatially aware could possibly be a skill factor?
Remember they didn’t have smart phones or lads mags….
I'm pretty certain they didn't have a "function" as such. The "Celts" enjoyed word games and riddles or expressions with two meanings or interpretations. I think these were likely ornaments that represented something. A concept or spiritual motif. I suspect they were owned by high status Romano Celts and they were a representation of their status (because they could afford to have these complex but intrinsically useless items made) and their maintenance of older concepts and beliefs outside of the Roman pantheon.
Not all of them have holes but circle designs on the faces. At least one is like that. I'm wondering if they were like dice?
I think the one you're thinking of is actually an icosahedron, 20 triangular sides - a D20
I saw the picture of it before watching the video and made the assumption, the same as yours that it was a sizing/perspective toy for children. I had a similar one when I was a kid. The shape of the objects had changed from all round to square pegs and such but it served the same purpose.
Except that it would have cost as much as a Porsche today. Expensive toy...
@@flipflopski2951 I'm sure that there were rich Roman kids as there are today.
A primitive curling iron for Roman women's elaborate hairstyles or wig hairstyles? Heat it up and weave the hair around and through the holes and knobs. The wax found on one may explain it use, as a hair styling device. Janet Steves, a historical hairdresser, does a great job on her You Tube channel of explaining just how elaborate the hairstyles were. Fun game. Guess the use for the device.
The features of a hand made object generally have some function or the maker wouldn't have gone to the trouble to make those features in the first place. I agree we don't really know, but the simplest explanation for me would be a candle holder. The protruding balls do act nicely as feet when placed on a flat surface. The size of the hole pairs are different, but do match up from top to bottom when standing on those feet. Hand made candles are of varying diameters. Candles need to be kept vertical to burn evenly and would lean if placed in too large a hole, hence the need for a selection of pair sizes. The facts fit as wax was indeed found in one. It could even burn inside like a lantern toward the very end of the candle's life. They were decorative, but candle holders usually are, so that fits too. Perhaps it was a household gadget that was a localized fad/fashion that came and went. Have there ever been any wear patterns found on them to indicate some other use? Or associated materials other than wax? -----Thank you Guy! Huge fan for decades!
I disagree on one point. Apart from the aesthetics of the key bow (handle) shape, the design also has the purpose of reducing the amount of material required and enabling them to be easily strung together with other keys via a cord or ring etc. This economy of weight and material (bronze especially, was expensive compared to iron) or its opposite (say paper weight) applies to many other objects all around us that have been well designed and as such can indeed be considered to contribute to the object’s functionality.
One example has holes which are of the following diameters:
13.5
14
14
15
19
20
20
22
22
22
23
24
That is, most are nicely spaced at approximate millimetre steps. (Obviously, this could be scaled to any unit and still have that evenness.) But there are duplicates of 14 and 20. I'm happy to accept the 13.5 as possibly being poor measurement or rounding. But the gap between 15 and 19 is intriguing.
And the differences between opposite faces are:
Difference
-8.5
-7
-6
-6
-3
-1
1
3
6
6
7
8.5
The -6 and 6 are due to both 20s being opposite the 14s. And none of them are the same on opposite faces.
First and only thing I ever thought they were a Toy. Maybe not for Childern, something on our Desk to Show off. I've never thought they're some kind of Amulet. Rich Man's Fidget Spinner. Look what I got!!! Oh Oh! You want one too!? No, Mine! That's the thinking here
So what did the Romans call the 12 sided Platonic solid? Apparently nothing with the Greek Dodeco root, but surely they knew about it and had a word for it. Why is there any confusion?
Almost all suggested use would also result in wear and tear from use. There is no use wear on any of them.
Nobody back then could figure out what to use them for either.
@@grantschiff7544 I think they are like Victorian bird stumps. In that time everybody knows that they were over decorated umbrella stands but that could only be found out from personal correspondence of the time because the things were just a long crafting fad. The dodecahedron is a Platonic solid and modern people believe that it must therefore have a profound function. However, what if it's function was Roman Ikebana. They could have been used for dry flower and/or feather arrangements and as the Roman empire crumbled, they simply fell into disuse.
@@zeideerskine3462 The older I get the more I think they were just tchotchkes like any random thing you find in your grandmother's house.
@@SirWussiePants That is a distinct possibility.
Soft metals, would not show wear upon them, especially as found with hoards of coins, one would be used for a limited number of ornate chains..(Solved? The Roman Dodecahedron) look up the video.👈
🙂no instruction = the user provides the instructions, in each case different, hence with a potential for secrecy... hypothetic examples :
- use "sacred" radomness, and practice some divination, possibly usign a knowledge book containing a number of cryptic texts (yi-king style; there were books like that at the time, i've read)
- use carefull calculations and assign a meaning (letters, numbers or basic notions / symbols, etc.) to various parts of the dodecahedron, and, use that for sending secret messages / orders (don't send the dodecahedron, send a crypted text, that would be decrypted on another - not identical - dodecahedron, following previously agreed rules that could be anything (no instruction on the dodecahedron), which renders difficult the hacking of the message).
I think it has something to do with weaving/macrame.
The idea of braiding is somewhat appealing, especially with wool, but braiding can and does involve a huge range of different numbers of loops or strands, not just five.
Yes, I've always thought Tinker Toys or erector sets. Child's toys. Put wooden sticks in the holes and make different shapes.
I asked my daughter (who read archaeology at Durham) to watch this and she came back to me today saying:
I remember these! A lecturer produced one and asked what we thought it was. One of the boys suggested it was a portion measure for sticks of spaghetti. The lecturer sighed and asked if he'd actually taken history at A level or not? The response from another boy was Not a piggybank either"?
I never did find out.
It’s a jig for creating braided gold chains. Or any jewelry type chain.
It’s probably some sort of tool, I have tools that you wouldn’t know the use of if you hadn’t been told, I recently figured out a tool of my father’s that’s been in the toolbox for 30 years. The people saying wire decorative work might be right but when we figure it out, then it will seem obvious.
Could they be for something very simple and practical - keeping candles of various sizes upright?
I think a learning toy is a good suggestion actually. I think there is a bias towards thinking these objects ought to be "serious" or military etc, but why not a toy? It has that playfulness to it that is toy-like. My own thought was as a holder for a lit taper or torch, placed near a doorway, with multiple holes to receive the taper that would allow for some stumbling in the half-dark. It is fireproof, can receive multiple tapers, and is partly decorative, as if it could also sit in the middle of a table. Then again, the holes might be a little large for that. Pilfering your toy idea, perhaps they would put multiple size wooden balls into the larger hole, and then you have to hold on to the knobs and turn the thing every which way as quickly as possible to make the balls come out of the different sized holes. I better stop: the innuendo is getting a bit Carry On Cleo! Either way, it is fascinating stuff.
I agree with the comment below. That was the first thought that came to my mind. Once worn and stretched, could the tubes have been stockings (perhaps to help in keeping warm - Mediterranean people in northern climes?).
How about a master fit gauge for shafts and axles to standardize cart axles for standard wheel hubs? Different size holes for different wheel sizes?
Hypotheses like measuring tool, candlestick, knitting loom, children's toy etc do not seem to account for the crucial factor of materials used in dodecahedra. I believe all of the examples discovered are crafted in bronze, some very finely made, which would certainly not be the case for such functional devices. Of course, Romans did craft utilitarian objects in fine materials as expressions of wealth, but a loom or candlestick of this design would also be widely emulated in cheap terracotta, or wood, surely offering examples preserved in the sodden soil of Northern Europe. Whatever the purpose of bronze dodecahedra, their medium suggests they would have been used by the wealthier strata of Roman society.
My uneducated guess would be as an ornament, possibly a passing style popular north of the Alps. They don't have to have a practical purpose at all. It's a mistake to insist they do.
A book I have on woodturning notes a style of candlestick which has a spike onto which the candle was driven, rather than a socket and obviously with this method any size of candle will fit. They're still widely used. Anyway, with socket candlesticks, you just use a knife to trim the candle base to fit. I think the candlestick hypothesis is really a bit silly.
@@shawncromett5556 I think that's a perfectly valid explanation too. But probably the hardest to substantiate.
Dodecahedrons were merchant multi-tools created by Gallic/German blacksmiths. Negotiatores/Roman arms merchants & Roman ‘Auxiliary’ troop arms officers used them to ensure standardized specs for the varying Auxiliary troops (these troops were allowed to use their own weapons which varied by troop origin). The dods were utilized for the measuring, procurement & (sometimes) maintenance of their polearm weapon shafts. For more info, look up my name (Richard Allday) and roman dodecahedron. (Researched opinion)
It just seems likely an item like dice. The holes being the pips, the knobs making them bounce but not unnecessarily so. Would work well on uneven ground. A gauge sounds plausible but what for? Just my theory and I feel they are unlikely even Roman though I read one was found in a Roman Fort.
Really disappointing Guy... That thing would have cost as much as a sports car today. To think that it was for a child to stick pegs in is absurd.
I think the key to the riddle is with the different sized holes. There has to be a purpose for that.
(Solved? The Roman Dodecahedron) look up the video.👈
Yes i also thought about sticking bits of wood in the holes. The nodules are maybe for lashing. Perhaps they were part of another structure? A tent? An umbrella? A mast?
I seem to remember someone proposing that they were for quickly erecting tents.
I've often wondered if they're not just a form of art. They serve no purpose other than they're interesting to look at. It makes me think of those shaped stone balls they find in Scotland from the Neolithic. Archaeologist have speculated whether they were weapons of some kind, but the amount of effort it would require to shape a stone with the intricate grooves and knobs seems extravagant for something you're going to hit someone with. I think the dodecahedrons, just like the shaped stones, with both being so hard to make, are simply examples of an early art form. Their only purpose is showing off the artistic abilities of the creator.