Vi vs Galadriel - writing female fighters. (Arcane / Rings of Power)
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- Опубліковано 5 лип 2024
- This is a different sort of video to my usual content - a bit of an experiment really, to see if you guys like this sorta stuff. I absolutely love arcane, and Rings of Power might be the worst show I've ever watched. And something I love about Arcane is something I can't stand in ROP - how they handle the female fighter. So what do I like about Vi that I can't stand in Galadriel? Watch and see!
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Its not really fair to compare Vi and Galadriel. After all, Fortiche is a multi billion dollar industry titan adapting a character from one of the most famous and popular series ever made, with decades of lore to use, and Amazon is a small, indie company adapting a character from a fairly recent property without a lot of lore or source material to draw from.
Oh snap, did I get that backwards?
Perfect post above.
Lol to be fair, massive amounts of money is usually toxic to art.
😄
Fortiche was backed by Riot Games and Arcane cost 60 to 80 million euros though
Had me at the first half ngl.
Oh my word, it's NOT even a contest!! I'm shocked by how similar their arcs are as you pointed out. I would pay for Vi to whale into Not-Galadriel while the real Galadriel watches with satisfaction.
That would be a sight to see.
Lol that's really funny 😁.
Vi can crush my head...
Galadriel can jump of mount doom
@@hannamouse1 You pass one major Vi flaw - her hate for Piltover
It so strong that for Vi feel OK with putting Powder in risk(she knew Powder was not good enough and what would happend if enforcers catch her), just to make some mess in Piltover. THAT was the reason why she tell Powder not to tell Vander about cristals even if this would put Powder in danger(even after Vander warn her to remove all evidence from this robbery)
There is no arc in Galadriel RoP story, she didn't change at all through out a serie.
YES!
I just want to point out, most of the comparisons you made were between an adult Galadriel and a teenage Vi. Just goes to show how much more mature the writing is for Vi, even as a teenage character.
It's not just an adult Galadriel, it's 3000+ years old Galadriel. One would think that all those years would have given Galadriel maturity and patience and wisdom, but nope.
@@ipromisethatserendipityisa9656
Correction: it's Guyladriel, from the Golden Goose house lol
Galadriel, daughter of Finarfin and a Noldo princess isn't like that biatch..
@@ipromisethatserendipityisa9656 3000+ years of fighting is a background that is easily used to set up someone to be a warrior. Or maybe 2700 years of becoming mature but having to deal with evil and loss for the first time and becoming devastated and hardened by the loss.
“She doesn’t have compassion”? Thats the point. That’s called having a character. You don’t like a character? That’s a “you” problem not a writing flaw.
You folks putting these cartoons on a pedestal is hilarious.
@@kittenburger_prime your opinions have to be troll lol there's just no way it's not
I don't mind that Galadriel starts out as selfish and callous. The problem is that she doesn't grow from that at all
Absolutely - I'd have no problems with her character if she had anything resembling a character arc, but she's a cow in episode 1, and a cow in episode 8.
@@hannamouse1 to be fair it take something to shake a character into a devellopment, if we compare her to heimerdinger, heimerdinger started his devellopment when he got fired from the council and if there's an event like this for Galadriel, i would say maybe it's what happen in the last episode, or maybe it's something that is yet to come, the show is very slow paced compare to arcane, so we have to wait a little longer before calling a lack of devellopment.
@@gizel4376 the problem is that Heimerdinger was likeable before his character arc, so it's okay for it to be delayed. If a character *requires* a character arc to be likeable, you can't afford to push it off to the end of the season, let alone a future season. If the audience isn't rooting for the protagonist by the end of the first season, you've utterly failed. *Arcane spoilers below*
Fortiche was able to get the audience to cry over the death of the villain of all people in only nine episodes, yet RoP can't get us to even like the *protagonist* by the end of their first season? A meandering first season where a lot of nothing happened? Let's face it, the people currently in charge of RoP aren't capable of pulling off a good follow-up.
@@kenjutsukata1o1 the first mistake of this analysis is to compare with the masterpiece that is arcane, you could take very good show and make them look like shit in comparison, Arcane is way above the standard for good show. Ring of power was fine i didn't expect that much in the first place, i understand the deception if you expected something as good as arcane or as the lord of the ring. Maybe the MC culture is an issue, Galadriel devellopement can wait because this is a show just like Arcane, where there's many character to root for, i personally wasn't rooting for Vi, i think there was at least 4 character more interesting and heimer isn't one of them, i think heimer was annoying but you need character like this for a good story, of course since Arcane is a masterpiece, heimer character is way better than Galadriel, but for an average show, Galadriel is fine.
@@gizel4376 Why on earth should we not expect excellence from a production based on The Lord of the Rings? The books were revolutionary and so were the films, so I don't think holding a show based on the IP to the same standard as a show based on a free to play video game designed to sell cosmetic skins is a big ask. So no, the problem isn't comparing the show to a masterpiece, the problem is accepting mediocrity from something that has a legacy of greatness. Arcane's greatness isn't impossible to replicate, it's simply an example of how using skilled writers based on their merit will produce a superior experience to hiring writers based on... whatever the hell the writers of RoP were hired based on. Nepotism, maybe?
Regardless of the reason, if the fools who wrote the series (and the fools who hired them) punch above their weight, then it's absolutely okay to lambaste them and their show. The Lord of the Rings has a prestigious pedigree, and they should be ashamed of having put out anything less than fantastic.
I think it’s funny that rings of power has become a case study on what not to do when writing a TV show
You have some very solid points
while Arcane is a reference on what to do
@@gizel4376 that’s some very solid points.
I feel like the reason Galadriel is so emotionally disconnected from what's happening around her is that Amazon's writers are actively putting in effort to avoid the stereotype of women being too emotional... except y'know, when your family dies most people would cry regardless of gender. That's normal. This mindset of defying stereotypes seeps into every aspect of her character until... oops! We've created toxic masculinity. I'm serious. Think about what traits get lambasted as "toxic masculinity" and it's pretty apparent that Galadriel has most of them. She's out of touch with her emotions, she mostly uses violence to solve problems, she pushes ahead alone, she neglects the well-being of her team, etc.
On the other hand, Vi has some of these traits, but not all of them, and the ones she does have are treated as flaws. The worst part is we more often get a Galadriel than a Vi. Writers seem very concerned with giving women good role models, which really should be a good thing, but they frequently seem to believe that the key to writing these characters is to inject them with toxic traits. Captain Marvel comes to mind, but I don't watch too many movies so I'm sure you could think of more.
They even have the gall to deflect all critics as sexist. Sure, some of them are, but for God's sake you keep writing the same damn character! The fact is that Vi is able to go against gender norms and virtually everyone loves Vi. There's no excuse anymore. Stop making these bad shows and give us more of arcane.
How is captain marvel toxic? Isn't her whole arc her overcoming years of programing and mind control?
@@themysticwarriorgal9465 well, her personality certainly fits: repressed emotions(which is weird, because everyone is always accusing her of being too emotional in the movie), isn’t a team player(which is very bad for a soldier, which she is both as a human and as an alien, as well as being framed as a good thing, since her team is lying to her), she’s arrogant, she’s violent(breaking the hand of a guy telling you to smile isn’t empowering, it’s psychotic) and her arc is about realizing she doesn’t need an arc, because she’s already perfect and everyone else is holding her back. I could understand if she had been brainwashed into being like that, but even with her memory back I don’t really see a change in her personality
I just find it interesting that they made the decision to have such a stoic character in a franchise known for having characters who display a full range of emotion both male and female.
This is the man who wrote about Aragorn weeping for Boromir when he died.
@@caffineandshiny for real, it pisses me off how incompetent and downright braindead the writers are. all they had to do is crtl c-v tolkeins work in a show, maybe change some things up like PJ had to in his movies, and they wouldve made a very successful show. but nah they just had to do their own degenerate sht and completely ruin the show from both a lore perspective and a show perspective. i mean like does anyone ACTUALLY like 'galadriel'??? i cannot fathom that anyone other than a complete psychopath would lol.
@@victormagoco9752 "(which is weird, because everyone is always accusing her of being too emotional in the movie)"
It's not weird, it's the point. The fact that she's pretty emotionless and the fact that her "handlers" react excessively at the slightest showing of emotion are for the same reason: They're trying to keep her that way.
"because she’s already perfect and everyone else is holding her back"
Nothing in the movie indicates that she's perfect. It does indicate that she doesn't have to be something that she isn't and yes her society as a large is holding her back. Which is accurate to how it is in real life too.
Vi is seriously one of the most Interesting characters in Western TV and mostly it's unrelated to her being physically strong or a fighter. She is presented as the sort of main character and hero of the story yet is in many ways the Antagonist to Jinx(whom the show actually revolves around) and directly or indirectly leads to her downfall and the war despite her best intentions. Jinx is the monster that Vi, the noble hero, created. even though Vi did everything she could to do the opposite, but just her nature and ignorance to what Jinx had become doomed her to push her sister away. that is such a good story to tell and runs entire different to how most Western stories are in current media. and her being a buff butch brawler wasn't the core to that interesting dynamic.
13:25 "This cannot be excused but my god can it be understood."
THANK YOU!!! This is one point that I am constantly trying to get across to other Arcane reviewers. It was utterly unavoidable for Vi, given her characterization to that point in time.
But go back and look at Powders reaction again - the HIT isn't what hurt her. It was Vi grabbing her by the face and saying "Milo was right - you ARE a Jinx!" that is what set Powder off - and in Episode 6 Vi confirms that she knows that's the problem. "I shouldn't have said that." The punch was bad, but from the way Powder reacts it isn't the first time that Vi has punished Powder with a punch. Or at least it's not something Powder thinks is out of character for Vi. Which doesn't excuse the punch, but the actual damage is done by words and eventual abandonment.
As for Galadriel, I haven't bothered to watch that show yet. One of the good things about being a Fan and not a Content Creator is that I can skip things that I don't think I'm going to enjoy watching, and literally nothing I've seen from Rings of Power makes me think I'd enjoy anything in it. At all. So no RoP for me. What little I have seen of the show fits right in with the interpretation here - overall a failure of a character at nearly every level. She might LOOK the part of Galadriel, sorta, but that might be the only level where the character succeeds to any degree.
agreed, the "enemy" music video also shows more of this as it depicts Powder's relationship with Vi being bitter sweet. she loves her but Vi was shown to have anger issues and to put her hands on Powder. but I applaud Riot for being brave enough to depict a character with such a flaw but not making them a villain.
I'm definitely one of those people that holds a big chip on my shoulder from the Vi-Powder moment, but it makes perfect sense for her character and I eventually conceded it was an honest mistake. If I learned one person I love just killed pretty much everyone else I loved after I just barely made it out of a life-threatening situation, odds are I would not be rushing to give them a hug and tell them it's not their fault, it was just an accident, either.
After watching Arcane I was surprised to find that people are so adamantly on either Vi or Jinx's side. Like, the beauty of the show is that everyone is acting within their characterization and everyone's -- even the villains -- actions are understandable and motivated given what they know and what they have experienced.
Exactly, do people expect that Vi of all people wouldn't have gotten into a heated scrap over something with powder in the past? Not saying that they fight frequently, just that both characters are prone to outbursts of sorts and its only natural with siblings to occasionally fight. So the hit isn't want hurt, it was the words, and Vi knew that as she said it that was the point. It was the only outlet for her own emotional pain at that time she had. Again not to be excused, but it is very understandable, we've all said things we've instantly regretted just because we wanted to hurt someone who hurt us in the moment.
It reminded me so much of the Water 7 Arc in One Piece where Luffy lunges at and unwittingly says to Usopp that if he wasn't ok with the Going Merry being left to die, then he should leave the Straw Hats, which was an UTTERLY stupid thing to say at the time, especially considering how Usopp was going through extreme bouts of denial and grief. However, it's absolutely understandable like Vi's outburst, considering that Usopp accused Luffy of only pretending to care about the Going Merry. And at least, (though it got a LOT worse after that) everything eventually worked out between them and they apologized to each other, since as a series based on a younger audience than Arcane, it would be too depressing if that were the case, and Arcane reminds me of One Piece in quite a few aspects other than the organic character interactions.
With Arcane, since it isn't focused on a younger demographic, they could take these kinds of consequences and push them even further, as exemplified here, with Powder becoming Jinx which then leads to her destroying the Council in episode 9. That's the reason why the ending of episode 3 (and in turn, the rest of series revolving around Vi and Jinx's conflict) works so well-everything made so much sense, that it's easy to understand the characters and hard to blame them for how they acted. This moment would've been easily botched if they made Vi denounce Powder the same way Powder denounced Vi, but the writers chose to take a more complex, route for Vi by having her contemplate about what she had done and determine how she should fix it, rather than play the part of the vengeful fighter and turn it into a milquetoast good-evil plotline.
Buzzword motivation:
What makes the character assassination of Galadriel in RoP even more soul crushing is that the writers would have had a perfectly fine angle from the books to motivate her. In the books, Galadriel is an inherently prideful person, who, for the longest time, had the desire to have a dominion of her own. It's a flaw of hers, one that the one ring appeals to in the scene where Frodo offers it to her. That's what makes that scene so significant and the words that came after it "I passed the test. I will diminish.. and go into the west... and remain Galadriel". It means that she was able to overcome her pride and overcome that desire of ruling over others, giving her reason to go back home to Valinor, eventho that means giving up her status as a queen/lady.
And that flaw could have *easily* been used in the show to drive her forward, but instead they chose to pretty much eradicate absolutely everything about her character and make her a vessle for vengeance. And that erasure also affected her good qualities, of course. In the books, even tho she is this prideful person, she is still compassionate and caring. It does play into her pride, but she cares deeply for the people of her dominion. She protects them, which is why she initially doesn't want to help the fellowship directly. She doesn't want to risk her own people, but also doesn't want to riks losing what she's built herself, so her motives are both her flaws as well as her virtues.
Even her offer for Frodo and Sam to look into the mirror is framed as "I don't give you advice, but you might learn something useful". Which she only does at all at this point, because she symphasizes with a fellow ring bearer. First *after* she passed the test and overcame her pride, she took a more active role in helping the fellowship, giving them adive for their next destination and granting them gifts.
And all of this, compassion, sympathy, foresight and pride, all of this is completely gone in RoP. She has absolutely none of these qualities. You can argue for pride, but not the same kind she had in the books. RoP Galadriel has a self-righteous form of pride - on where she thinks that the end justifies the means. Book Galadriel is prideful in the sense that she thinks she deserves a dominion of her own, but she actually has the qualities to show for it and knows of the responsibilities that come with it. RoP doesn't give a flying damn for responsibilities or the consequences of her actions whatsoever.
And yes, people might wanna argue that "it plays before the events of the books, so maybe she has to develope these qualities first". But no. That's a very weak argument. Even if someone is still far away from "passing the test", they'd still show some of those qualities. There is absolutely no way that would seem logical or natural in which RoP Galadriel could develope and evolve into anything even remotely similar to book Galadriel.
RoP Galadriel is by the end of the day a completely different character altogether. And that's the worst part about it. If the writers really wanted to go with an angle of the protagonist spiraling downwards into being the actual bad guy (which I don't actually think they intended, it's just what happened through their crappy writing), then they should have just invented a new character for it. Not kill off a beloved and honestly very important character of the Tolkien world.
Best summary of it I've seen so far. Thank you
Very good write up.
The problem with Galadriel is that she's strong because she is, where Vi shines is that she is strong because of her will to protect people she cares about. It's why she goes to hell and back fighting Sevika, it's why the only time she left her guard down was when her own sister snuck up on her. Her willingness to protect people is her strength but it's also established that it is also her weakness, because she lets her guard down multiple times because of this.
Galadriel is strong because she was trained by some of the most powerful existing entitities in Ea (the planet on which Middle Earth and Valinor exist) buuuut the writer did not include this information at all. The reason may be that Galadriel's story is in the Silmarillion - the book which the writers of the show have no rights for and Tolkien's family made it clear in the trial they won against Warner Bros that RoP will not make any reference to any source material apart from the Lotr movie content (plus appendixes and all that).
However this not excuses bad writing - just bars the easy way of writing Galadriel
@@mariaramonatanasie3506 If it doesn't excuse her bad writing than why did you mention it?
Oooh that's a good take. I would easily be more impressed by someone who pursued competence for a noble cause rather than someone who is naturally competent or at most trained for neutral or self-serving reasons. It's clear Vi trained hard so that she can help protect everyone around her
Still though, strength from "perfection" just feels robotic, that show in a scifi setting with her as an Android would be much more compelling.
Vi is a well written human hero because she is such a bad a*s but is still broken/ flawed in a character defining way.
Someone else pointed out that the greatest strengths of Arcane's characters are also their greatest weaknesses. Vi is an excellent fighter, but because she put so much time and energy into learning how to fight, it's her first response to almost every problem. She hits Powder in episode 3 which drives a wedge between them and also she fights Sevika in episode 5, in front of witnesses, giving up the element of surprise to Silco.
The algorithm coughed up your video to me, I just finished it and wanted to say well done!! This was a well written little video essay and did a great job comparing/contrasting some of the parallels between two characters who were written VERY differently. Keep up the great work!
Yeah, same.
same here!
Same
Same. Algorithm did good today.
It's very simple. They don't care about having a strong woman. They just want something to silence the feminists (the bad type). They needed someone who just looked at a scene or two to think "yes that's a strong woman"
The animated characters in arcane feel infinitely more human than real life human actors.
I don't watch a lot of series/movies myself and I'm mostly a reader. As a reader obviously what everything looks like is an aspect of my imagination.
Real life actors frankly often get in the way of my enjoyment.
In animation everything can be done perfectly. Emotions done in cartoons/anime are often done much better imo than with real life actors.
@@Londronable also the real problems are Actors and Limited freedom as the core problem.
-> Has freedom and total Cooperative Mindset
Where live action comes as
-> actors acting restriction
-> Writers not fully connected nor fully compassionate to the source material.
I love how passionate you sound when talking about these characters, be it appreciation for Vi or pure hatred for Galadriel
she isnt galadrial..
riot really did a number. they raised the bar pretty high. i'm glad that hollywood is getting shit on right now. they deserve it. the animation, music, story telling, backdrop, character arcs.... everything about arcane was really well done; and i was extremely skeptical. one of the best animated series i've seen in awhile, and honestly one of the best shows i've seen period. the amount of care they put into the human motion, facial expressions included. just out of this world.
Definitely glad UA-cam recommended this video to me. You did a great analysis on them both.
Vi is just such a great character due to not letting her weaknesses stop her but to help push her, as well as having two mechanized fists to punch her way through trouble. Also glad that Arcane transferred Vi's playstyle into Arcane because she is all about charging into battle and breaking down defenses while defense is to the side as a Passive ability.
agree
Preach
I love how Arcane has set such a standard for so many different aspects of media lol
I loved the video, you raised some great points. I absolutely loved Vi and didn't like Galadriel, but couldn't put my finger on why. You've done a great job spelling it out.
No idea what you usually make, but you got yourself a sub if you make more content like this, good work.
This was actually a bit of an experiment, really. I mostly do art and video game stuff, but I thought that I'd try this style of video. Felt like I had something to say. And you guys actually want to listen to my opinions? Fantastic - I'll definitely do more of this sort of content moving forwards! Glad you enjoyed!
@@hannamouse1 Great analysis...apt comparison...supporting evidence from the sources. Yeah you should be doing more if you've got it.
@@hannamouse1 I love videos like this and will probably watch them if you make more, keep at it!
HOW DO YOU ONLY HAVE 114 SUBSCRIBERS? This is one of the best videos i've ever seen, I love seeing a smart woman apreciate female characters without falling for pandering. Instantly subscribed and notifications are on, keep up the great work.
I honestly would say that Galadriel in Lord of the rings had a more compelling, more believable, and more impactful arc.
And she was maybe on screen for 20 minutes?
She is introduced in a more compelling manner, that gives insight to the depth of her character. We get to see her struggle when the ring is presented to her, we see her overcome that struggle with greater emotional impact at her own success then we see throughout the entirety of rings of power. We see her overcome that temptation and grow from it. Feeling more empowered and more strong in her own self, having answered a question that she was always wondering about. We see her caring and compassion in the gifts that she gives the fellowship, specifically in the brief intimate moment she shares with Gimli.
The crazy thing is, that's more than just how to write a good strong female character, that's how to write ANY good strong character. And Hollywood is supposed to have known this for decades
Intelligent and compelling arguments, you got right what a billion dollar production could not or didn't care enough to accomplish.
What a great analysis! The "punching powder" part is truly understandable, people don't like violence especially against kids, but Vi was also a kid at that time that just lost her father figure, she was going through an emotional rollercoaster at that moment and sometimes our human emotions can get extreme, unpredictable, and vulnerable.
The way that galadriel consistently demonstrates strength by ignoring the needs of and stepping on the people around her, makes me feel like the filming of it must have been a super toxic environment
It's VI's grit and persistence that allows her to compete. The fact that she risks everything, burying that feeling, standing up to what's essentially a disadvantage. Her power is very much clenching her teeth and act on instinct when she needs to. But her world is a harsh one, and beating her opponent is not only survival - it's a living.
Sure she steals, but the struggle in Zaun is also keeping what is yours for the moment. This mentality has surely molded her well into adulthood.
It would make sense for her to become a powerful rogue-cop foil to someone like Caitlyn, as VI always pursued justice in her own way - In her violent, yet protective manner.
It's fucking brilliant. As a VI main, this is the sort of media of my actual dreams come true. Good on Riot for branching into things like Arcane. They've worked hard to make their old and dusty stories shine these recent years. Good on them.
I think that many of the toxic traits of Galadriel might have been the attempt of the writters to portray the elves as cold, distant and arrogant, as perceived by the rest of the races. But in the LOTR both Tolkien and the screnwritters of the movies did a good job on showing Legolas as an elve with more or less these characteristics but that at the same time was kind, making jokes, and respectful to others, despite the harmful stereotypes he held against the dwarfs at the beginning of this journey.
Ok, first of all, this analysis was SPECTACULAR!! You did such a wonderful job of illustrating all the similarities and how one shines where the other just falls flat. Amazing work, honestly! Second, how is it that I never thought of this before?!?! Their arcs are like mirrors that reflect each other on a surface level, this just goes to show the importance of pre-production, careful planning & specially, the motivation behind the ideas. You can clearly see which one wanted to convey a story and share gut-wrenching human experiences while the other one wants to appeal to nostalgia and get lots of money.
I study writing, and as i've come to realise, if your writing of characters and worlds is rock solid, it doesnt matter the setting/gender/race/whatever. you can make the most insane things work as long as you make us believe them. every time i see "galadrial" in the show she always looks like a generic girlboss, but everytime i see vi i nearly always connected with her struggles and empathised with her strongly. good writing always wins.
Very nicely put! It's a shame we get more shows like RoP than like Arcane these days.
Word.
When you read it out like that, I just realized how ironic is was for Galadriel to threaten to take a boat back to Middle Earth by force!
For the uninformed, the Rings of Power prologue basically goes "Morgoth ruined heaven, he fled over the sea and we followed him" In the lore it wasn't that simple. The elves that chased after Morgoth didn't have boats, only the sea-faring elf communities had them. The current High-king at the time demanded use of the boats, but the sea-elves understandably refused because they didn't want to be affiliated with shit-disturbers. So the High-King ordered his people to take the boats by force, which resulted in a brutal massacre forever known as The Kinslaying. While official lore is unclear if Galadriel's clan personally took part in the slaughter, it still traumatized almost everyone involved and it effectively soured any allegiances the elves could have with the elf clans indigenous to Middle Earth because they were wary of associating with extremists and murderers.
RIP Grayson, the grandma we all deserve
Great video. Really well reasoned, solid points of comparison, I'd not really thought about how similar these two characters are in theory. Keep it up!
Damn, I teared up from just seeing the still images in your video on the Arcane episode 3 moment.
Shows how well that was done in the show.
I was thinking about this the other day while remembering Arcane and the character's writing. Your video it's well made, you make good points and you have a really nice voice, so thanks.
Definitely agreed with the leader part. Going off ahead of your team doesn't make you a better leader, it makes you a show off. A real leader may know they're good or better than everyone but they lead from within the pack or even behind it to make sure the team succeeds. Great vid.
That was an excellent analysis with great editing. A very good video essay.
I don’t think I’ve ever empathized with a female character more than in this show, or at least I’ve never emphasized with a strong female character more than vi, take notes marvel.
I always see males giving review about the flop of the rings of power, but boy, female to female perspective is what we're needing right now. This review is factual and executed very well in contrast and comparison. Thank you for standing up against this horrendous forced agenda writing.
It's crazy how animation look more alive than an actual human actor...
I really enjoyed your analysis! Keep churning out great content like this.
Excellently well done!
And the art during the video was a rather nice touch.
I think you broke this down very well, good job. Very nice drawing too, it was actually a satisfying backdrop to your discussion watching it come together.
I really enjoyed the video! One thing I would like to comment on is your third recommendation, to give your characters flaws. I don't think characters need to be deeply flawed to be interesting, and these two are a good example of that. Between the two, Vi seems to be far more admirable by basically every metric. As you pointed out, Galadriel has tons of flaws (apathetic, arrogant, vengeful, etc), but that doesn't make her interesting. In contrast, Vi comes off as caring and courageous from start to finish. She makes mistakes, obviously, but each of them hits like a truck specifically because they're out of character for her; they're what she does when pushed to the absolute brink. And every time she does fail, the narrative brutally punishes her for it, which also gives her the opportunity to learn and grow. That's what makes her interesting: her growth and perseverance, not the mistakes themselves.
I guess what I'm saying is that the likeability of characters is built primarily on the story that surrounds them. I don't think flaws are inherently necessary to writing an interesting character, hardship is. That hardship can be born from flaws, but we'll only root for the flawed character if their hardships are used as an opportunity for change. Otherwise, it's just somebody unpleasant making poor decisions and paying the price for it (which can be fun to watch too). By the same token, a character can be essentially perfect but still compelling if they're in a compelling story.
For another example of what I'm talking about from Arcane, take Caitlyn. She undergoes a fantastic amount of personal growth over the course of the show, but that's all based on what she learns and experiences (i.e. what happens in the story). She doesn't really have any overt flaws that need to be corrected, unless you count ignorance, though she's intelligent and open-minded enough to fix that pretty much the instant she's offered another perspective. As a person - her values and strengths - she's remarkably static, and quite charming for it.
TL;DR The paragon of virtue is a cool archetype, and will only be boring if your story is boring.
A big problem is that Galadriel's flaws aren't really treated like flaws. She acts like a cow, but because she's always right, It's framed to diminish the other characters instead of her. According to the show runners, the destruction of the dagger represents the destruction of Galadriel's innocence. If this is her as innocent, I dread to see her in S2.
@@hannamouse1 Oh, absolutely. I guess it's less a matter of giving your character flaws, and more a matter of having the narrative acknowledge them. Vi has an advantage from the get-go just because she's framed within a better story.
If we're being optimistic, that means there is hope for Galadriel in S2. She definitely has flaws to overcome, meaning if the storytelling improves, so might her characterization.
Have to say what both of you say are good points & it's appreciated, one thing I would like to point out is as much as we are comparing characters and stuff we also should comparing over all execution of the production Eg: in arcane nothing is wasted every moment on screen in used to help highlight vi, tbh every character compared to rings there is so much superfluous crap that serves no purpose other than to "look cool"
And evan that is insulting.
So something I just released just now is evan the reveal of jinx is so good in arcane compared to rings, so I'm a fan of the games and have a understanding of where the characters will eventually end up and I'm so excited to see it evan if I know to final stop...
Compared to the crappy underwhelming and frankly bad set up and reveal of Halbrand I know where it ends and I loathe it all.
In both I saw it coming & loved one to death & the other vomit my stomach lining out...
Anyway sorry for the rant rings of power just triggers me
@@hannamouse1 "but because she is always right..."
No!
She is never right in the show. Her hunches are either wrong and racist or are the result of being manipulated by the dark lord sauron himself.
Her actions cause the return of sauron, the blinding of the numenorian queen, the creation of Mordor and the creation of the elven rings.
The show *does* show us she is a cow causing problems. I'm not sure where the general public missed that but I think it was somewhere in the marketing of the show that people got it in their heads that the show was trying to go for a heroic Galadriel. But that's wrong.
Hell, there's no bigger proof of this than Sauron thanking her for getting him back and proposing to her. He *knows* the kind of person she is and is very much into it
@@androkguz I'll say - I didn't watch any of the marketing for the show, in fact, I consciously avoided it so I could go in blind. The first exposure I had to it was when I watched the first episode on the day it was released. I had no clue what I was getting into going into it.
But when I say that she's always right, what I mean is, that's how the show tries to frame her, narratively. Like, we know that a lot of the things she says and does are vile, but the show tries to frame her as this icon of innocence, who is mistreated and misunderstood by those around her, especially in the first episode.
Take the climb up the mountain. Here, the elf asking to go back is probably right, logically. However, because by pure happenstance they wind up in this fortress, he's framed as whiny and pathetic, while she's clever and resilient. When Galadriel jumps off the boat, it's the most stupid thing I've ever seen, but she's framed like the victim of Gil-Galad's manipulations, as he knew that she was right about darkness persisting in the world. Yes - Galadriel does some pretty awful things, but I'll be very surprised if the show gives her the comeuppance she deserves for them, because she's framed narratively as an icon of perfection - up until she destroys the dagger (her innocence, as the show runners said) and creates the rings, which is framed as the only true reprehensible act that she commits.
Even the queen going blind/ Isildur's "death", Elendil calls her out on it, but does a full 180 between episodes and goes back to not hating her again, for no real reason. And Sauron returning, yup, absolutely her fault. Pretty sure that Sauron was perfectly happy making swords for a living until she stirred the pot, but I somehow doubt that she'll be vilified for that to the extent that she should be in the next season. Although this is speculation - they might chuck her back into the ocean like she deserves - but she'll probably still be framed like a good person.
p.s. While yes, she does the other 3 things you mentioned, Mordor would still have been created without Galadriel's involvement, because Theo still gives Adar the sword, Adar uses the sword to open the most over-engineered spillway in all of existence, Mt doom still erupts, Mordor is still created. Only difference is that there's 1 less battle. Ironically, this is just about the only thing that Galadriel actually takes responsibility for, but she... isn't actually responsible for that one.
This is so well written and your points are excellent, I love the cuts of you drawing. This could be a core concept
This was such a well done and much needed comparison, thank you!
So 👏 good! 👏 I've been thinking about making a Rings of Power vs Arcane show comparison video, and so much of it comes down to character work. Well done and put together 😊👍
All these issues with Galadriel are just infinitely compounded with the deep lore we already have about her and how starkly different she is in RoP.
The main difference to me is that one has actual character development, the other doesn't.
Vi grows into being less impulsive and learns you can't solve everything with violence. Galadriel, in the meantime, never learns that it's not acceptable to sacrifice the people around you for an obsession, and is never questioned for resorting to cruelty when it wasn't necessary.
Vi suffers the consequences of her actions by facing Powder, now Jinx, after abandoning her. Galadriel goes against the wishes of everyone around her, the elven king in particular, and is greeted back as a hero.
Awesome video! You explained everything perfectly!
I really enjoyed this video, a very good breakdown and comparison of the two. You have earned another sub!
A very well thought out video, and a very interesting watch. Also, loved the visuals :3
Galadriel comes off as an unfiltered psychopath, and her psychopathic behaviour is presented as aspirational and badass. Actual psychopaths usually come off as less psychopathic than her.
Vi comes off as a guarded and traumatised but underneath that is a kind person.
And genocidal, to boot. Galadriel calls for the extermination of the Orks, as if this is a good thing, despite knowing that the Orks didn't choose their fate, they were victims of Morgoth. If she actually valued life, she would hold out hope that the Orks could be redeemed.
@@robinpage2730 I don't think the genocidal part is necessarily wrong. In the past they may already have realized that orcs are beyond saving and need to be eradicated for the sake of all other humans, elves, dwarves, ... maybe even as a mercy because they came from a twisted origin.
It is the way she used/talked about it. One can still see the need and act on it without feeling good about it vs enjoying it. Even now we do genocide on certain species, even if it is just regional (for example animals from asia that disrupt the balance when imported in the European/American environment). It might need to be done, but one shouldn't relish in it or use it like she did.
@@MDP1702 perhaps that's true, but I read it as her wanting to destroy them out of pure hatred, spite, and vengeance, not from pity or mercy. She just hates them, and blames them for their own corruption, the way many middle eastern societies blame the victims of rape for their being "defiled" more than the perpetrators.
@@robinpage2730
*perhaps that's true, but I read it as her wanting to destroy them out of pure hatred, spite, and vengeance*
Which is why the way she went/talked about is the wrong one.
Imo, animation in general is able to show emotion more clearly because they can exaggerate the emotion to get the audience to: 1. Recognize the significance of the scene, and to 2. And convey clearly how a character is feeling, without having to rely on an actor’s direction or just not the best acting.
Edit: I mean animation that is more stylized, and not realistic.
“Pompeyed the lot of them” was spot on :D
Let me just say that watching a great drawing being made while listening to character analysis is somehow such a perfect, relaxing combination! Great video!
This video got you a new subscriber. This was a great analysis of the two characters. 16min well spent.
How I love discovering a channel that I know is gonna blow up at some point. Great video!
Just to clarify something real quick. For the majority of this I agree with you. But there is a lore reason for Galadriel being a little more controlled with her emotions. In the LOTR lore, elves can literally die from being too sad. So her weeping and wailing over the body of her brother wouldnt track the same way.
OP (overpowered) character that can singlehandedly defeat the enemies can be satisfying and compelling in its own. To make an interesting story with OP character, they usually make the OP character unrelated to the struggle happening so this character won't seem to be unlikable or stupid just because they don't help. As an example, in 1 story I know, the viewers see the antagonist murdering random people so sadistically. We start to get annoyed. We wait for the OP character to show up. There's a build up that they will meet. Then when the OP character's friends get murdered, the OP character takes revenge quite easily. Of course, giving the enemies chances to brag about their power and then get obliterated will be more satisfying. It really needs a lot of tricks to make an OP character interesting to watch.
AN OP character needs to be carried by their personality. They cannot have outward conflicts as their struggle beyond some once-an-arc villain of similar power to them, so they must instead have inward conflicts or character conflicts. The worst thing you can do is have an OP character with a bland personality and incoherent or nonexistent interpersonal conflicts.
@@Thedarkbunnyrabbit Personality is important ofc, but I didn't mention it because it's already said in the video. This is just something I want to add, since I've seen several OP characters handled this way, aside from their personality, motivation, and conflicts.
And I don't really think the character should always have inner conflict in each arc. Sometimes, they're just mature enough that consistency is what's needed in that arc. In that example, the character's only goal at the time was to gather money and have his name known. The only bit of vulnerability he showed (without expression since he's wearing a mask) was that he'd lost his friends, so he refused to replace them with this new group. After the new group was brutally massacred without him knowing, he only chased after the antagonist after he got paid by their relatives, but he killed the antagonist brutally, admitting he's annoyed. I've seen viewers celebrated that moment.
@@stefanijovita1640 The thing is even simpler: if your protagonist is so "OP" that combat isn't an actual source of tension and conflict, your story it's not about that, you need something else.
Only... Certain demographics can warch an invicible character crushing everything but still being trated as "just another person in the setting".
The simplest example it's One Punch Man, which is clearly not about the fights of its protagonist, Saitama, because he literally destroys any Monster in a punch.
The manga itself is about the comedy that ensues from his power creating more and more absurd early on and, after a while, it's about how this absurd powers has been going unrecognized by society.
It's a story about a guy who peaked in his "hobby" but doesn't find satisfaction because he lacks new challenges, and fails to find it even when turning It into a job.
Here and there we get actual action scenes, but the narrative never tries to fake the fact that he will win in a single (serious) blow
@@Hyperversum3 True. Again, I'm just explaining one way to build a battle scene for an OP character, since the video mentioned that having OP character made the battle outcome predictable and uninteresting. That part is the one specifically I want to add. One Punch Man also works similarly to how I explained in terms of how they build the battle scene. They usually have somebody else in the scene get beaten to a pulp, we wait for Saitama to arrive and solve the problem. Ofc this is just one way, but used in many stories with OP characters (One Piece, Overlord, Solo Leveling).
The key to this, I think, is to make the OP character beats the enemies in a proper time of need. Galadriel didn't help when she was present nearby. In another scene, she showed off when training the knights while the knights didn't deserve to be beaten that way. She didn't use her power in a proper time of need. In other stories, the OP character doesn't care about some mockery. They only beat them when the mocking ppl get in their way. That's how we can get a satisfaction from the OP character beating someone. Ofc it'd be predictable, but predictable in a satisfying way because they act properly when they need to.
@@stefanijovita1640 Oh yeah, that's an example of the "your narrative comes from something else".
Just to quote again OPM, the famous fight that ends the First part of the manga/ Season 1 is the hero apparently meeting an equal for the first time. Big spectacle, great fight.
Then the enemy says "You aren't giving your all, are you" or something to that effect, which is true, and the fight ends again with Saitama easily punching him dead, but seriously this time.
The fight gives both spectacle and doesn't change one bit the premise of the story.
Its satisfaction comes both from a cool fight and the clearest example of Saitama personal issue: he just can't find someone that can satisfy his itch to fight once more for real.
Again, the premise of "OP" is used to create a real narrative. The viewer, if doubts Saitama OPness, it's because the "trick" was diagetic, It happened in the story, as Saitama tries to make the other guy happy by giving him a fair fight rather than destroying him in one hit.
The story never says anything else.
THAT'S smart writing.
Please do more of this content!! You are extremely talented at it!
Awesome video. Great essay and art work
Wow such a well down analysis. I’ve watched arcane but not rings of power but still I understood every one of your points. You perfectly explained the difference between those two characters in such a concise and engaging fashion, and you drew my attention to things in arcane I didn’t notice before, thus making me appreciate this show even more. This show’s character work truly is impeccable.
Great video
I hope you make more analysis vids in the future, you are very insightful and your voice really suits the content, not to mention you godly editing :)
This is an incredible analysis and comparison. I was hooked the whole time!
Really good breakdown, I enjoyed the video!
Honestly, arcane is a golden standard to adaptations and good characters, up there with the expanse & edgerunners this is where we always need to be hmmm.
Rings of power is not evan so bad it's good it's so bad unlike Super Mario Bros 1993 is
Very well thought out! I agree completely with every point you made, I'm glad the algorithm showed this video to me!! :D I'm looking forward to more content you make!
Dude, this video is great and I couldn’t believe that it was your only review video. Keep it up!
Extremely well done, concise and to the point! I was shocked when I saw your sub count lmao
I really hope you continue to make more content like this in the future (especially Arcane)!
Your video popped up on my feed. I just finished. Love it!
So, minor disagreement with regards to no enjoyment watching a character win a fight they knew they could win. That absolutely can be some of the coolest and most fondly remembered moments/fights in a piece of media, but the thing is the narrative and honestly the framing *needs* to be correct. I think it doesn't work in RoP because a. the elves with her should all be some of the most skilled fighters out of all elves, and they're shown to be pretty useless, b. we're given very little reason to believe that this *should* be a one sided fight (like maybe instead of the sword jumping, you would see Galadriel step up to the troll, effortlessly dodge a swipe by the smallest margin and maybe slash a tendon in the arm and we see it go limp. It would then try with the other arm, she'd slash again to make the other arm go limp and then effortlessly finish it off) and c. at this point we're more regarding her as a leader, and we've seen nothing that would indicate training in her backstory, and no leadership skills up till this point.
Excellent analysis, and great advice! Well done!
Excellent video / breakdown. Thank you.
I was waiting for someone to make a video like this
I don't know who you are but I am glad UA-cam showed me your video. You absolutely hit the nail on the head with this one. Galadriel lacks any depth to her character and that sucks because Galadriel from LotR could display a lot of emotion with a single glance.
Galadriel's biggest problem is that she lacks the kind of attributes consistent with elven sensibility. Elves are generally empathetic, sophisticated, and sensitive - traits which for some reason the writers do not value, or perhaps cannot imagine. The only thing elvish about this Galadriel are her ears.
Nice structure I especially liked the panels of different shots.
This was brilliant! Thank you so much for this video
Perfect dissertation and impeccable analysis 👍
Really good work here, I appreciate this breakdown
The algorithm has blessed you, child. And you have been found worthy, with this excellent work 😁
Excellent comparison, and there are lots of things I hadn't considered, partly because I still haven't checked Arcane, but I think your analysis is one of the deepest and freshest I've come across, and most people, myself included, would likely miss a lot of these parallels. Again, great work, and kudos to you for it!
Now I unironically would want to see Vi knee-ing Galadriel in the face lol
have you read Berserk?
I think youd like it.
Its dark, brutal and gruesome like nothing youve ever seen, but has some of the best character writing Ive ever seen.
Caska is and remains on of my favorite characters ever.
Tho she IS rivaled by Vi and Jinx, Im not convinced they out rank her.
Beautifully illustrated.
The drawing was good, too 👍
Something else too about Vi's seen with the council, she's talking on her behalf but then she's also talking on the council's behalf. She sees that they should have a reason to fight him too rather than Galadriel who's only sight is based on her own selfish desire for vengeance. Even in the end Vi's desire to defeat silco may still have been out of her own desire but she was more understanding toward the councils despair with silco. Arcane's just a great show all the way around!!!
Solid video, great watch!
The problem is that Galadriel is a millennia old elf, so she has next to no chance to grow and learn new things because in that much time, she had to encounter with pretty much every scenario. If she's an ass at the beginning, it's unlikely that she will change
I really enjoyed this video! You have a lots of good points
Wonderful thoughts. Thank you for sharing!
All the symbolism of items, actions, places, relationships, and the emotion shown through the sheer animation skill of Arcane still make me cry when seeing or thinking about it. "You're perfect." - Silco to his own show
Off-topic: the parallel presentation of Jayce's ascension and Viktor's deterioration is probably my favourite staging of the show, though it's hard to tell because all of it is so incredibly good!
Yet another person brought to you by the algorithm. Loved this video. Your usual stuff is not my usual thing so I am glad that you tried this experiment. Loved the video. Yes I realize I already said that. It's worth repeating. Thank you for making it.
Excellent video and analysis. Well done!
Man am I happy that yt algorithm recommended me your video. I can't believe that you created sth so good while only being at 500 subs and without any previous stuff similar to that. You got my sub. I hope there will be more vids to come
Considering the quality of the analysis and the video, I was certain you sub count is at least 50k. Keep up the amazing work!
Lovely video and analysis! Subbed!! Keep up the good work :)
Great analysis! Totally referring to this for my writing!
This is really good but I haven't seen Rings of Power so I don't know if they were trying to make Galadriel a selfish, horrible person but she's still a horribly-written character but Vi is an awesome character and is often overshadowed by Jinx, ironically, at least by the fans. Also I tried to fit another fighter from a show that's technically a kid's cartoon but is surprisingly dark and has a wonderful story: Rayla from the Dragon Prince. Idk why I'm doing this but here goes. Also this will have major spoilers to The Dragon Prince so if you don't want that don't read.
So first character setup: Rayla is set up as this incredibly skilled and agile person. The first time you see her she's chasing after a human easily (she's an elf btw) and easily catches him. But like many tropes with assassin characters, is unable to kill him because it doesn't feel morally right to her. But when she is reprimanded by her leader/mentor/father figure because she endangered their team by not killing a guard, who alerted the king they were planning to kill on their mission, she decided to try and make it right because she's very driven by duty and making up for past mistake (more on that later). So she goes after the king and his son but ends up meeting Callum and the son, Prince Ezran, and going with them to return a dragon egg that was thought to be dead. She has to fight her mentor/father figure/leader (I'm just going to call him Runaan from now on because it's simpler) and that is her first fight (or what I'm counting as her first fight because the ones before it were chases or small fights)
First fight: Rayla has to fight Runaan to stop him from going after Callum so Callum and Ezran can leave with the dragon egg. Since it's a "kid's" show, it doesn't have much blood or gore, so she's not visibly banged up by the end, but she seems to be exhausted. Runaan has much more training than her, so she is no match for him, and eventually loses but makes it out fairly unscathed. Her skill is shown but so is her vulnerabilities, but there are other fights that better portray this
Leadership skills: Rayla isn't really the "leader" of their little group because there really isn't a leader, but she's definitely the fighter/protector. She takes care of Callum, Ezran, Zym (the baby dragon prince that hatched out of the egg) and Bait (Ezran's pet glowtoad thing) and fights for them since none of them are big fighters. She struggles at first with trust and so does Callum so her relationship with the group was very rocky, but their trust of each other grew. She's always willing to sacrifice herself for her friends, and often gets into dangerous situations because of it.
Motivation: This is probably one of my favorite parts of her character. As I said before, she is incredibly driven by her sense of duty and needing to make things right. She's terrified of being a disappointment because her parents were thought to have failed and ran away from their duty of guarding the dragon egg before it was taken by a dark mage. She feels like she needs to make up for their mistakes, especially in season three. She often puts her own life in danger to right wrongs and help people around her, even those that wronged her. She literally pushed a guy off a cliff and went down with him, but thankfully was saved by Callum.
Attitude to Authority: There aren't many moments of this but a few are, when she confronted Runaan, when she had to reason with a huge dragon that hated humans, when she threatened to kill someone one of the villains, Claudia, loved to get something she desperately wanted. She'd much rather fight than reason, but when she has to she can and keeps her cool while also staying incredibly deadly to the people she's threatening
Vulnerability: Nope I take back everything I said about her motivation being my favorite part of her character, her vulnerability, like with many other characters, is my favorite part of her arc. Where do I begin? I'll start with season one: There's not much to say here but her conflictions and her little moments of vulnerability when talking about why she has to make things right. Season two: again, not much, but maybe with comforting Callum and Ezran when they learned of their father's death (They're half brother's btw, so Callum is technically the stepson of the king who was killed by the assassins). Now season three is where she truly shows major vulnerability. She learns that she pretty much indirectly killed her entire team of assassins and that she is now considered a traitor by her people, who have made her an outcast. Callum catches her crying and hating on herself for not being good enough to save the people she loves. He comforts her, and slowly they become the BEST. SHIP. EVER. She later has a similar vulnerability when she is faced with being in the same situation as her parents. Then, in between seasons three and four, she has ptsd from the battle in season three and is constantly plagued with nightmares of losing callum as well as her parents (Who were revealed to really not be traitors and are now missing) and Runaan. She ends up ruining the last relationship she had by leaving to try and find the main villain alone, because of her sense of making things right and protecting the people she loves. In season four, she is faced with the reality that she messed up her relationship with Callum and that things will probably never be the same between them (T_T) and is also met with the possibility of getting her loved ones back.
Overall, I think she fits the "Well written female fighter character" list alongside Vi (Tho maybe not as good as Vi, but I still love her)
Good analysis. Really great comparison
Very nice drawing tutorial in the background additionally to the good video xD