I really appreciate this video. I think you captured the frustration a lot of us feel, especially because this whole saga seems to have substantially interfered with GRRM's ability to work on and complete the main story. Hang in there, man
I'm frustrated that WE DON'T KNOW exactly what he's upset about; is it just the obvious budget/episode cuts? Or something with the actual writers? And even then, what exactly could have upset him so much?
I guess to be fair with House of the Dragon, there's a little room for interpretation, because Fire and Blood is a history book written from a Maester's viewpoint.
@@thedragondemands5186 Is it? The ambiguity is completely gone even though it could have been saved in certain places (not everywhere of course) Characters are different and even their motivations are completely different. In the book it's simply about power. In the show it's prophecy and patriarchy. It's not even my words. Creators are open about it
What lesson??? GOT wasn't his mistake to learn from it, that was on D&D. That's the elephant in the room everyone is ignoring: HOTD isn't Martin's responsibility. Condal and Hess can fuck up as much as they want and Martin will still come out of it unscathed because nobody associates the TV shows with him. His responsibility are the books, his legacy are the books, and because he can't finish them he is now trying to overcompensate for that by being more involved with the TV adaptations of his books.
Martin personally chose D&D as GOT showrunners. He then personally chose Ryan Condal as HOTD showrunner. When talking about TV writers he would recommend for any of his adaptations, Sara Hess was always at the top of the list. One of the writers from season 2 is his personal assistance. These "trash writers" you speak about are all people Martin personally vouched for. If he is now not pleased with his OWN CHOICES then maybe it's time to hang his hat and let HBO do their own choices for who will handle their next adaptation.
I am neither defending nor attacking this idea, but people are saying there’s a foundational issue that would have survived rewrites. It seems Condal and Hess are hellbent since S2 on making Rhaenyra and Alicent incapable of doing bad things and always victims of bad circumstances. That goes against the source material, and even GoT where you saw plenty of female scheming.
@@thedragondemands5186The test will be whether the power goes to her head once she actually takes the throne. Alicent I’m not sure what they could do with her since she kind of disappears from the story for a long time after that.
@thedragondemands5186 Do you think if the studio grants only 8 episodes for S3 & s4 it will destroy the show? Given the sudden way S2 ended without a true finale, it seems this was a Plan B or Plan C when they learned of the episode/budget cuts(compounded by WGA Strike). If they have ample time to write these next two seasons across an 8 episode arc, they may be able to make it work smoothly and without the same pacing issues. Obviously we’d prefer more episodes to build a more immersive world with the addition of our favorite book characters, but I personally think if they have the time and the knowledge of what they’re working with, the show can be course corrected. There were too many extenuating circumstances for S2 to think it won’t get at least a bit better.
@thedragondemands5186 Now if we found out the studio meddled on the creative side…one thought that comes to mind is going overboard on emphasizing the prophecy and making the direct correlation to GOT without nuance or subtlety…then more future problems become far more likely. Daemon just being giftwrapped the prophecy of all future events totally negates his internal conflict that we saw unfold over 5 episodes. It took away his agency on making a difficult decision and bailed him out. Something strange happened behind the scenes there to allow this to happen.
@georgechristopher4807 to add to that, Daemon’s weirwood visions were just a short montage of future characters and events, how could Daemon interpret any of that in a useful way for himself or the blacks? He sees a weird guy in a tree, ice zombies, and a naked chick with dragons, and now he just suddenly knows what he has to do… because… the naked dragon lady in his trippy magic dreams was the real motivation he needed to fight the war? Ugh… lame. I could see how that might inspire him somewhat, but there’s no telling how much of that dream made any actual sense to him… OH AND the weirwood dream conveniently left out the end of game of thrones show and how Daenerys fails at keeping power and his targaryen family dies and fades away anyway. Couldn’t the vision have shown him future events in the more immediate near future to his present time? Or like alternate version of the events to come in S3 S4 so he could maybe use that insight to make different smarter decisions to change the near future outcome of the dance of dragons in a more meaningful way that benefits him and Rhaenerya? His motivations changing all of a sudden because his girl Boss wife surprise crashes his soldier party and also a trippy dream showed him a dragon lady and ice zombies so he needs to sober up and serve his lady, feels sort of superficial and lame. We have no idea how he interpreted any of that weirwood vision at all, what it means to him, how he understands it and how it motivates him at all. Including the vision is fine imo but how much should that dream and the prophecy really drive the motivations of these characters. Because they’re also just psycho jealous power hungry people, they don’t seem like the type to want to save the world save the realm save people from death and evil, especially because they’re forcing the realm to go to war and basically forcing huge masses of people to die… so that they can fulfill a secret prophecy where they heroically save the realm… I mean, I guess tyrants are narcissistic enough that they’re incapable of seeing the hypocrisy of using the song of ice and fire prince(ss) that was promised prophecy as an excuse to destroy the realm with war so that they can personally save the realm from a war
My biggest issues with the show, which could be George’s or may not be: -I don’t buy Alicent having a closer relationship with Rhaenyra than her sons, both of them. -They’ve made Aemond and Aegon enemies of each other rather than working together. I don’t like that change either. -I read the book story as primarily being a fight between two sides of a family, granted that both sides are partly dysfunctional, like lots of families. But the show has turned into the war of all against all within each side of the family: Not just Daemon being a bossy playboy and that angering Rhaenyra, but Aegon and Aemon and Alicent all out to kill each other. I hate that direction and that’s not how I read the original. There’s a principal with a lot of families that we may argue all the time, but it’s our family first with any external fight, and that’s completely the way I read the fight between the Blacks and Greens in the book. That struck me as real (and made the characters relatable) while the show characters I don’t believe (and can’t relate to at all); they seem manufactured to be “Game of Thrones” characters vis-a-vis each other like how Varys, Littlefinger, and Renly are to each other, but those characters aren’t two brothers and their mother! The show rings false to me. The rivalry between Renly and Stannis was very well done, but not every two brothers are like that. Villains are more interesting if they have some appealing qualities; George Martin gets that. It would be a much more interesting story if Aegon and Aemond cared about each other and supported each other despite all their big flaws that they have made a huge deal of in the show!
You are comparing Aegon/Aemond to Stannis/ Renly and yet, Stannis purposedly murdered his brother as well. There really is anything inherently bad with either of these relationships. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it was bad. As for the Alicent abandoning her 2 sons, Alicent met with Aegon twice after Rook's Rest, and both times, the maester told her he might not make it. That he is good as dead. Aemond has basically threatened Helaena to battle, to death. It's quite clear Alicent loves Helaena more than any of her sons. It got across to me she would rather keep Helaena safe than continuing this useless war.
@@MayhapsYes That still doesn't excuse the fact that DAeron got a death sentence despite being a good kid. And to play Devil's advocate, Halaena is needed to fight to protect her family from the Blacks fighting to kill Aemond, Aegon and whoever resists them taking over. That's how war is, them losing could also result in Halaena and her daughter dying or be separated while the rest of their family is killed due to being on the wrong side.
I’ve had a weird feeling that HBO has been pushing the “connect to Game of Thrones” agenda with House of the Dragon, since a lot of the ways it’s been brought in have been kinda clunky. Beyond that, hoping that Condal and Martin can manage to bring back 10 episode seasons or at the very least add a season or two
I'm sorry but this notion that the book version of Blood and Cheese would be unacceptable to the audience is absurd. Think back to the Red Wedding in GOT which is similar in shock value and brutality. That scene got people talking and increased viewership going foward. Now what if D&D had the same fear that the audience couldn't handle the book version of the Red Wedding so they only had Rob Stark killed and didn't show the huge massacre along with it? I doubt it would've had people talking as much and telling their friends and coworkers about this shockingly brutal scene that they need to see. Point being, they didn't tone down the Red Wedding for the tv audience and it definitely didn't turn the audience off. I mean Jesus, they added a pregnant woman getting stabbed in the stomach multiple times. I'm pretty sure that same audience can handle the book version of Blood and Cheese
I've said it before but I wonder about the actors salaries. My guess is that Matt Smith, Emma D'arcy and Olivia Cooke are getting paid the most so they would get the most screen time even though at this point in the war they aren't the focus. So the two Rhaenyra and Alicent meeting scenes, were those in for story reasons or because Emma and Olivia needed more to do.
@@thedragondemands5186 Overall structure: 1. Complete lack of tension and investment: How many tense moments were there? Did we care for anyone during the Rhaenyra trials, where she was putting all those people in front of the dragon to see if he burns them? Or how about Rheynys? All I though was "good, that's what you get for killing 100s of innocent people") 2. lackluster and incomplete exposition of the characters involved: I challenge anyone (who hasn't read the books) to give me all names of Rhaenyra's council members without looking it up. Then we have the two houses slaughtering each other at the very beginning of the episode. Who are these guys? Why should I care? How about Corlys and his sons. I don't even remember their names. 3. Waste of time: Why did they go with Daemon tripping balls the whole time? Why not send him further to the Riverlands and create an intrigue between him and all the Riverlords, trying to sway them to his side? "But we did have it" - it wasn't fleshed out enough. It could've been such an interesting subplot, but it turned out to be... nothing? It's even worse when we realise that if we take that whole subplot out of the show, barely anything changes. The only difference would be the lack of the Riverlords' support for Rhaenyra, which given how many dragons she has, might not be that important after all. Adaptation: 1. Why are they so desperatly trying to take any initiative away from Rhaenyra and Alicent? They're trying tu push the message that men are the ones pushing for war, and women want to preserve peace. The problem is - it doesn't work at all. If they have no decision making power, no ideas of their own, why should I care how they end up? There's many more, but I haven't read the books, just read the Wiki and watched some UA-camrs, but from what I've heard, the books' story is much better. Things not making sense: -why did Rhaenys turn back in the battle of Rook's Rest? -how did a vision of some frosty boys and a girl's buttcrack with a dragon convince Daemon to support Rhaenyra? -how was it so easily for both Alicent and Rhaenyra to sneak into each other's strongholds? -why did ALL the people prefer to be burned down by Daemon, instead of joining him? No human on the planet would act like that. -why did Helena stop caring about her child getting murdered? "People die all the time, especially babes". Really? I could go on and on, I wrote here just a few of all the problems of this season. Being non-native in English makes it even harder. Point being - just like engineering or playing an instrument - screenwriting is a craft, with established rules. And season 2 of HotD violates many of them - who knows which more than the other - making the whole thing objectively badly written. Is my response satisfying?
Peple keep talking about how HotD S2 ruined it all but for me, the show's story was ruined as soon as Rhnyra-Ali patched up and became friends in S1Ep8. That post-dinner friendship scene is where HotD got wrecked and never recovered!! Whatever happened in S1Ep9 was absolute joke. Alicent vs Otto race to capture Aegon was hilariously dumb. Plus, Rhaenys killing hundreds of people in dragonpit was ridiculous. All of that nonsense were clear signs that show is becoming horrible but people didn't pay attention then. Then we have S2Ep3, when show truly died for me. We have Rhaenys who tells Rhaenyra that she can meet Alicent and somehow stop war. Like..HOW THE F?? what does Rhaenys think thats gonna happen? How Alicent and Rhnyra would stop the war when it is establish both wants the throne at any cost? Show had its great moments but the friendship factor between all the women ruined whole thing.
I felt 100% the same shift you mentioned, and it was made even worse watching the After the episode where they just randomly mention that Alicent has become super religious out of penance for attempting to kill Rhae. Which, not a bad idea on paper, but it completely is nonexistent in the show. Alicent is only religious during the court episode and it comes off as "holier than thou" than genuine faith. Even worse is when she NEVER does any of this again. Not even when it would give her better motivations. Her not wanting Rhanyra and her children killed for example, is because she doesn't want Aegon or any of them stained with the sin of kinslaying and assasinating defenseless people.
If I was fighting with Condal, it'd be over ruining the story by messing up Nettles, Morning, Aegon younger on Stormcloud, Mealor at Bitterbridge, Alys' baby with Aemond, and all the other wonderful pieces of the story that will no doubt get cut. There's still time to save all of this, I'm so worried that it'll all be cast aside though!
Pretty sure it about Condal considering he named him. Maybe Condal hasn’t told him everything if GRRM out of the loop but it’s clear GRRM is unhappy and it rolls into his other posts about writers adapting which he was angry about how they do what they want and thinking they know better with IP Think it likely Condal is on side with HBO because he wants to make the show whether he agrees or doesn’t with changes. People forget that movies and tv shows are consistent debates of persuasion
I think the issue here is a combination of all three narratives: - yes, HBO is at fault for shoehorning in certain plot points (Dany, the Others) as well as cutting the episodes down to 8. - yes, the Writers Room have made negative changes to fit what they believe is superior to the source material (Rhaenyra and Alicent blameless in anything, complete character U-turns, Blood & Cheese lacking Haelanas decision) - yes, GRRM has finally woken to the fact his legacy as one of the great fantasy writers is in jeopardy. I think he is also frustrated at his own lack of work on Winds and death of motivation to actually finish his Magnus opus. When it comes to HOTD S2, the blame is shared between HBO and the writers. Had HBO kept 10 episodes and had the writers been both brave and humble enough to follow the source material, we would’ve had a 10/10 season.
Game of Thrones left out key characters in Lady Stoneheart, Young Griff, and etc. so once you do that the show was always going to be different in the end from the books. It also didn't help that Dan and Dave wanted to "subvert expectations" or that they were in such a hurry to get their new Star Wars gig that they ended the show prematurely and badly. HoTD is HBO's second try and the material it is based on is vague and sparse. There is a lot of wiggle room when it comes to fleshing out characters and the plot but if you have a mandate that says can't make the female characters look bad you are going to have a problem writing this story. No where in Fire and Blood did it speak about Rhaenys bursting through the floor at Aegon's Coronation killing thousands of innocent people. It doesn't happen in the book, it is a huge event and that is never dealt with in the show. It was done to give Rhaenys a huge girl boss moment but is then ignored by the characters and writers. In the end it made Rhaenys look ridiculous to the audience whenever she spoke about caution and compassion. Alicent and Rhaenyra don't have happy endings in the book and they are not portrayed as tragic heroines in Fire and Blood. The show writers are trying to make both of them central characters of the story and make them likable to the audience and for the most part they have succeeded. However the story of The Dance of the Dragons is the story of two women whose actions and ambition bring about a devastating Civil War that kills hundreds of thousands of people in Westeros, kills off the dragons, and ultimately weakens the Targaryen's power. Certain things have to happen in the story, and certain characters have to be there to propel events for it to end a certain way. If you start changing things even little things the story doesn't make sense to the audience. If GRRM doesn't like the way they are doing this he better have it written into his contracts that he has creative control. I would also be more sympathetic to him if he finished Song of Ice and Fire. Not only is he 13 years overdo with that book but he also has to finish Blood and Fire and also Dunk and Egg. He needs to stop starting new things and concentrate on finishing up the projects he has, and if he is having a problem doing that he needs to hire some people to help him.
My biggest concern has to be the episode count. I do have other problems with HotD as a whole but the shrinking of seasons is not going to make anything better.
My only advice to Martin is that if you want to keep the purity of your work, don't sell it to people who have fucked you around before. As someone who is writing a book series, I will never allow anyone to buy it to make it. Why? I see who I see for my characters and I see my story so lovingly that if anyone got a hold of it to change it so radically, I'd be upset. I also have some very controversial stuff in my story and I don't see someone telling my story faithfully. I haven't read the books so I'm not so in love with it I'm disappointed. I think what it is about Martin that I have a hard time getting through his books is all the side stuff. He bloats his stories so much it's hard sometimes to keep track. The fans should be happy Condal isn't D&D.
I have to ask what about Healena and Alicent they are fundamentally different character. Specially Alicent they did wonderfully whit her in season 1. She was deep complex both bad and good. But at her core her motivation was to protect her kids. Then the last episode of season 2 she betrays her whole family and agrees that she can kill Aegon. And let’s be real kill Dearon Aemond, Otto, Cole and her brother Gwayne.
The only silver lining in this is if Martin is completely disheartened by yet another HBO series, he might just spend his time writing rather trying to help make a good show. I don't see how anything can be fixed at this point whether it is the just the cuts or cuts and the screen writer.
Uh no. Martin just posted about another show, A knight of the seven kingdoms, and how much all the characters came to life on set. He's moving on to this show, it seems.
@@MayhapsYes It seems to me that GRRM understands very well that his magnum opus will never be finished, which means that his main *legacy* will now be the TV shows.
Hey brother one idea I had: all GRRM's complaining about Maelor being cut and its impact on Helena, I think he is actually talking about the death of Rhaenyra and how it is not possible if they had Sunfire killed. He means he saw how they planned having Rhaenyra killed.
George explaining how he accepted the blood and cheese changes because actual children were involved could be reflecting how he feels about not having Rhaenyra devoured and p o ably inexcusable in contrast
Ive been wondering about this also. I hope Sunfyre survived since we hardly got to see him and he’s still supposed to fight Moondancer (Sun and Moon symbolism there) and his scene with Rhaenyra. I really hope they don’t give those to Aemond and Vhagar. I actually would be ok if they gave it to Helaena and Dreamfyre as revenge for Blood and Cheese but Helaena seems over that. I really hope they don’t have Rhaenyra and Alicent run away together or die in each other’s arms like Romeo and Juliet
Sunfyre is definitely alive in the show. Many thinking he was dead/close to death before mysteriously disappearing is part of the book. When Aegon hears rumor of a golden dragon being seen on dragonstone, it totally reinvigorates him. His arc is close to what it needs to be as of now. He won’t make it to Essos due to the impending sea battle and will settle in as a commoner on dragonstone.
I don't think that comparing the freedom that Benioff and Weiss got in Game of Thrones with Condal's situation in House of the Dragon is fair, purely because Game of Thrones ended up being the biggest flop of TV history with that awful Season 8. If anything, it should be more reason to give LESS creative freedom to Condal, given how last time they did that it went so poorly. In fact, the new heads at Warner might be overcompensating now by being too strict in fear of repeating that mistake, which would also partially explain the episode cuts.
My feeling that most of the issues are due to Studio parent company Warner Bro Discovery. The few things are having babies in a show is problematic because studio has to hire multiple babies for that role and is expensive. The show runners will still have to invest in Maegor to make the audience understand why characters are affected by his demise. Young children in any show is one of the biggest expenses if they are more than cameos. Studios have to follow certain laws with child actors because of massive scandals in the past. The House of the Dragon is an expensive show from special effects standpoint. Children in any show are worked around the hours that they can work. Dragons are expensive and cutting characters make sense to pay for that and it's not as big expense in the original series or Duncan and Egg show. Condal still has to listen HBO and WB Discovery and they said cut costs. I believe that Studios has the control in this situation.
Sure, Condal was pretty faithful to Fire & Blood in season 1…but D&D was pretty faithful to ASOIAF in the first 4 seasons too, and look what they did with seasons 5-8. 🤷♀️
They did give screen time to Rhaenyra & Alicent screen time to the detriment of other characters. We definitely should’ve seen Jace meeting with lady Jeyne Arryn and more with Cregan Stark. Personally I don’t care that much about Nettles, but Rhaena abandoning Rhaenyra’s son in order to sneak off to claim a dragon? Rhaenyra’s gonna be pissed!
I think you hit on something with your comment on the ending, because that was everyone’s complaint about GOT. I admit I haven’t read all of Fire and Blood yet (I prefer to watch to show and then catch up), but I know the jist of how the Dance ends, and I find it plausible that HBO would be anxious about how to wrap up this plot in a way that satisfies the audience and also leaves the door open to tell stories in other eras (conquest, etc.) because they’re probably not going to do another series if HOTD doesn’t stick the landing.
The negativity that I have seen directed towards Hess has not been based on her gender or sexuality, but her writing decisions. Afaik she is responsible for the Rhaenys scene in S1E9 which ruined her character for the sake of *female empowerment* (according to producer comments), and she is also responsible for S2E8 where coincidentally once again female characters get ruined by very, very questionable writing/character decisions. These are some of the worst and most harmful scenes in the entire series.
It doesn't help that she is also an executive producer and is speaking out alot more than the other writers. Like she literally reposted a fan post about how Westeros should have be co ruled by two queens (Rhaenyra and Alicent) which just makes it obvious she has her favorites.
No one’s talking about this but, I’m worried about the Aegon III & Viserys II plot line. They look very young and Stormcloud was nowhere near large enough for Aegon to ride and they’re leaving for Pentos as of Episode 8. Either they’re both going to be lost at the gullet or both recovered by Corlys which…lame either way.
I mean if Sarah Hess wrote bad scripts and had terrible ideas for the show, it would have been Condals Job to stop that or let her rewrite it. I'm not sure how much influence she had on the show as a whole, granted she is one of the lead writers. But still, it remains Condals fault for letting something like that happen, so I really don't blame Hess. If it turns out that Condal is not able to influence the writing because of Hess or whoever, only then I would blame her.
Second half of season 2 was bad. A lot of that is the writers strike, hitting the rewrites of those smaller face to face scenes. But by the old gods and the new they better make Rhaenyra a rubbish ruler and Daeron a proper hero.
I wouldn't mind changes to the source material if the show's vision was actually better storytelling than the book, but it's not. General audiences are saying Rings of Power season 2 was better than HotD s2. That's a very low bar. What we saw on screen felt like a rough draft, but fundamentally they made some major mistakes that I wouldn't have thought to make as a mediocre writer.
This, I think, might be a good place for a reasonable discussion on one of the decisions the showrunners made in Season 02 of HOTD. I am talking specifically about the revelation in the final episode of season 2 of how Daemon was being manipulated by others through the medium of dreams/the weirwoodnet, to change his mind/perspective/actions going forward. I have seen a lot of responses by diverse fans, but also, interestingly including some assumedly older school book fans like myself, that were very negative about this change/inclusion. So for myself, I was personally very disappointed that they continued to use the GOT version of the visuals/character design of The Others in that sequence. However, from a storyline and character development perspective, I couldn't understand why even book fans seemed to have a problem with it. Characters being manipulated by others without their knowledge, through dreams and prophetic visions, is 100% classic Song of Ice and Fire material. In the main series it happens to Jamie, to Jon, to Danyeris to Bran (extensively), to so many characters in really pivotal parts of their stories. So this response to that part of HOTD s02 just leaves me confused.
You're right that it's established well in universe/books, and I think the main thing is that people are still carrying their hatred of S8 of GoT into this, so anything around prophecy/magic/weirwoods/greenseers/wargs etc triggers people.
I had a supremely negative reaction to seeing this season 8-style white walker. I only came around to accepting it via discussions and comments like this. I hate what GoT did with the white walkers, and how they look. They are also not scary if you keep showing them, it destroys the mystery and the idea of a great unknown danger.
At least they haven’t gone full rings of power on him. Poor Tolkien, it’s not just that the story doesn’t fit with the first trilogy( even though they clearly try to force the connection on you while watching with all the obvious hints) and it doesn’t fit with the books at all…. My biggest issue with the last of GOT and ROP is its plain retarded and boring, the show standing all by itself with no connection to anything but itself, it just plain sucks.
I don't think he has read the books, granted maybe he has. But I feel its hard for that to be 100% true without the scripts being done or filming being started.
Dude "Condal was really, really faithful to the story in season 1"? Are you serious? I've been disagreeing with you for a while, but this is too much. As an adaptation it's been a disaster from the start. And as its own thing, it's not that good either.
I would love for each season to have had 13 episodes, including the ones to come. It's possible that the financiers (not the studio) could've put oversight into the season along with less funding thus making WBD push for certain things and reduce the episode count. A long shot possibility but one worth considering. Especially if there are institutional investors. There are some writing decisions that were baked in long before the strike and episode cut when you consider there were 4-5 draft revisions of each script and statements in interviews from both Hess and Condal before they started working on season 2. Plus, there is still a person who has the job of ensuring continuity. On Zaslav wanting Harry Potter to be the flagship series of HBO, it makes sense. Harry Potter has the pre-existing films, a theme park, branded costumes worn by both kids and adults, and one of the most popular video games in the past few years in Hogwarts Legacy. ASOIAF doesn't have the third-party revenue opportunities as Harry Potter. And Zaslav just secured a new deal with Charter.
@KainBooks you are correct. But the first two movies ( so the first two seasons of the upcoming series ) were pretty faithful. You can watch the first two movies and go straight to book 3.
GRRM is now more than five years older, and the likelihood of ASOIAF ever being finished is correspondingly diminished. It makes him more invested in the TV shows.
I'm starting to think Martin might be the issue here. This is shades of D&D all over again, and may be a reason why they stopped listening him at a cetain point. Granted it was to their and the shows detriment, but Condal and this group of writers seem much more dedicated to following Martin's blueprint (Fire & Blood), as flawed as it may be. On a certain level he has to let them do their jobs, although after what happened with D&D he might not be so willing to let another show go off the rails again.
I'm inclined to agree. Of course it would be nicer to think that his complaints are reasonable and not an old man shouting at clouds, but it does seem very possible that's what's happening.
I think George stans are wrong. It might have finished faster but I bet it stayed on the rails. They just took his notes and finished without the connecting filler that made the early seaso s better
GRRM should have put stipulations when he sold the rights of his books . Didn't he learn his lesson? He could have had control on everything but I guess is not a good businessman. Two important stipulations should have been 10 episodes only and changes approved by him. I still love the show . All the fighting , all the betrayals . The two brothers fighting makes sense to me. Loved that storyline . Maybe HBO is waiting for Trump to give them the tax brakes
Boy you really hate Zaslav ! Zaslav is trying to dig WB out of the huge deep pit that his predecessors put it in. And when you look at it objectively Harry Potter has a more wide ranging audience than Game of Thrones and it is a finished story. The only problem that fans had with the movie series is that it had to leave things out of the story because of time. A series would allow for a more detailed adaptation of the books and JK Rowling has the time to devote to overseeing it. The Hogwarts game proved that it will be profitable so WB is going to invest in it. WB got burned by Dan & Dave as well as GRRM. They started GOT assuming George was going to finish the books - he didn't. GOT worked when D&D stuck to the source material when they ran out of the source material they got creative and they didn't have the talent and it showed. HoTD is based on a book that is written as a history book with unreliable narrators it is very sparse. Condal has been able to flesh out this material, but it has and it hasn't been as faithfully adapted because the source material is sparse and GRRM doesn't have the time to help with that, because he hasn't finished ASOIAF. You as head of WB have a finite amount of money to spend on projects. What is the better investment? Harry Potter has a broader fan base, it is a finished story, and the author is going to help to write scripts to adapt her story into a series. GOT is made for an adult audience, it is an unfinished series with some material that can be adapted to a movie or miniseries if the showrunners are talented, but the author help is sporadic at best. If you are a competent business man you are going to pick Harry Potter, it is the better investment of time and money.
The people bemoaning the lack of “female” scheming give me the impression that the grifterverse is using this situation as an excuse to shriek woke. Guess they think their audience is too stupid to remember that they whined about the same shit in season 1, while GRRM and non-weirdo audiences still praised the show.
Shoehorning in the Others is almost certainly the network’s doing. It reeks of “corporate synergy.” Nettles might be the result of it; they didn’t have time to write her this season in a way that didn’t make her look like a Magical Black Person. And George will tacitly accept credit for ANY improvement, even if it was already in the works without him. He main not mean it to be, but he’s pulling a con.
The people who ran Warner Brothers before it was handed off to Zaslav put Warner Brothers deeply in debt. Zaslav has been trying to dig them out. Decisions made by Anne Sarnov and Toby Emmerich put the company in a dire place financially. But previous WB heads just didn't care because AT&T would keep bailing them out. Well AT&T got tired of WB losing them money and spun them off under Zaslav. Blaming Zaslav isn't fair he is trying to put the WB back into profitability. Comparing Zaslav to Kennedy is wrong. Kennedy has been trying to change Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and Willow to reflect her political and personal philosophy and doing so has caused catastrophic brand damage. And unlike the heads of AT&T who got tired of losing money and put Zaslav in to stop the hemorrhage of money. Disney and Bob Iger have aided and abetted Kathleen Kennedy's stupidity to this day, because Iger doesn't want to admit that they screwed up.
I said this a lot back when I was defending the final season of Game of Thrones. But whether it's George or some other book writer who sale they're TV rights, companies nor directors and TV writers care about the book product they're adapting. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule but the line ALWAYS USED IS, "THE BOOK IS THE BOOK THE MOVIE IS THE MOVIE' or TV show... whatever. But that's how it goes. Then the directors shit on the writing staff and the writing staff is shit on by the production company, and the directors and production...it's usually a mixed bag but they hate each other too. It's always an idea shot down or something needs changing. Often times on shows as big as HOTD or GOT its weeks for a few minutes or seconds of film not including reshoots. George sold his rights to make some money at the end of the day so HBO can do what they want because they know we will watch anyways. George isn't fighting anyway but he is probably frustrated. He said months ago they sent him a rough cut of the first two episodes of season 2... That's usually a no-no and if you sent it to a lead actor you can bet they didn't watch it and will have words about it in some passive aggressive way (leaning more on the aggressive) because it's just bad manners. They sent George a rough of 2 episodes to his house. They don't value his opinion "just say something because the show is premiering" basically. And that also means he's not on set and not really giving counsel. It's also very likely HBO wants they're moneys worth out of Emma, Olivia, and Daemon and Cole (I forgot they're names) so expect a lot of shit to fall flat from here on out. This is just my opinion I've been a writer in Hollywood, not very long and not on something as big and successful as what GRRM has created but I can tell you for sure, they don't give a shit about what we want as fans and writers are tired of not being able to see they're own content or not even having time to work on it.
I really appreciate this video. I think you captured the frustration a lot of us feel, especially because this whole saga seems to have substantially interfered with GRRM's ability to work on and complete the main story. Hang in there, man
I'm frustrated that WE DON'T KNOW exactly what he's upset about; is it just the obvious budget/episode cuts? Or something with the actual writers? And even then, what exactly could have upset him so much?
It’s quite simple imho: GRRM called out Condal by name.
Yeah I dont get why people keep defending Condal
I mean... I like season 1 but calling it "really really faithful to the book" is just... an interesting choice of words. There's a ton of changes
I guess to be fair with House of the Dragon, there's a little room for interpretation, because Fire and Blood is a history book written from a Maester's viewpoint.
to the spirit of it
@@TurquoiseStar17 oh that's why Alicent is a completely different character from the start
@@thedragondemands5186 Is it? The ambiguity is completely gone even though it could have been saved in certain places (not everywhere of course)
Characters are different and even their motivations are completely different.
In the book it's simply about power. In the show it's prophecy and patriarchy. It's not even my words. Creators are open about it
@TheHellyeahmen
Have you read Fire and Blood?
He learnt his lesson and is now calling out the problems with this sort of change early.
What lesson??? GOT wasn't his mistake to learn from it, that was on D&D. That's the elephant in the room everyone is ignoring: HOTD isn't Martin's responsibility. Condal and Hess can fuck up as much as they want and Martin will still come out of it unscathed because nobody associates the TV shows with him.
His responsibility are the books, his legacy are the books, and because he can't finish them he is now trying to overcompensate for that by being more involved with the TV adaptations of his books.
Boy suffered with D&D and had enough with these trash writers.
Trash like D&D as writer's or Ryan
@@cherylbaxter8986 Oh, my sweet summer child, both are trash of course.
Martin personally chose D&D as GOT showrunners. He then personally chose Ryan Condal as HOTD showrunner. When talking about TV writers he would recommend for any of his adaptations, Sara Hess was always at the top of the list. One of the writers from season 2 is his personal assistance. These "trash writers" you speak about are all people Martin personally vouched for. If he is now not pleased with his OWN CHOICES then maybe it's time to hang his hat and let HBO do their own choices for who will handle their next adaptation.
I am neither defending nor attacking this idea, but people are saying there’s a foundational issue that would have survived rewrites. It seems Condal and Hess are hellbent since S2 on making Rhaenyra and Alicent incapable of doing bad things and always victims of bad circumstances. That goes against the source material, and even GoT where you saw plenty of female scheming.
maybe? Rhaenyra seems to want to burn Oldtown by the end of Season 2
@@thedragondemands5186The test will be whether the power goes to her head once she actually takes the throne. Alicent I’m not sure what they could do with her since she kind of disappears from the story for a long time after that.
@thedragondemands5186 Do you think if the studio grants only 8 episodes for S3 & s4 it will destroy the show? Given the sudden way S2 ended without a true finale, it seems this was a Plan B or Plan C when they learned of the episode/budget cuts(compounded by WGA Strike). If they have ample time to write these next two seasons across an 8 episode arc, they may be able to make it work smoothly and without the same pacing issues. Obviously we’d prefer more episodes to build a more immersive world with the addition of our favorite book characters, but I personally think if they have the time and the knowledge of what they’re working with, the show can be course corrected. There were too many extenuating circumstances for S2 to think it won’t get at least a bit better.
@thedragondemands5186 Now if we found out the studio meddled on the creative side…one thought that comes to mind is going overboard on emphasizing the prophecy and making the direct correlation to GOT without nuance or subtlety…then more future problems become far more likely. Daemon just being giftwrapped the prophecy of all future events totally negates his internal conflict that we saw unfold over 5 episodes. It took away his agency on making a difficult decision and bailed him out. Something strange happened behind the scenes there to allow this to happen.
@georgechristopher4807 to add to that, Daemon’s weirwood visions were just a short montage of future characters and events, how could Daemon interpret any of that in a useful way for himself or the blacks? He sees a weird guy in a tree, ice zombies, and a naked chick with dragons, and now he just suddenly knows what he has to do… because… the naked dragon lady in his trippy magic dreams was the real motivation he needed to fight the war? Ugh… lame. I could see how that might inspire him somewhat, but there’s no telling how much of that dream made any actual sense to him… OH AND the weirwood dream conveniently left out the end of game of thrones show and how Daenerys fails at keeping power and his targaryen family dies and fades away anyway.
Couldn’t the vision have shown him future events in the more immediate near future to his present time? Or like alternate version of the events to come in S3 S4 so he could maybe use that insight to make different smarter decisions to change the near future outcome of the dance of dragons in a more meaningful way that benefits him and Rhaenerya?
His motivations changing all of a sudden because his girl Boss wife surprise crashes his soldier party and also a trippy dream showed him a dragon lady and ice zombies so he needs to sober up and serve his lady, feels sort of superficial and lame. We have no idea how he interpreted any of that weirwood vision at all, what it means to him, how he understands it and how it motivates him at all. Including the vision is fine imo but how much should that dream and the prophecy really drive the motivations of these characters. Because they’re also just psycho jealous power hungry people, they don’t seem like the type to want to save the world save the realm save people from death and evil, especially because they’re forcing the realm to go to war and basically forcing huge masses of people to die… so that they can fulfill a secret prophecy where they heroically save the realm… I mean, I guess tyrants are narcissistic enough that they’re incapable of seeing the hypocrisy of using the song of ice and fire prince(ss) that was promised prophecy as an excuse to destroy the realm with war so that they can personally save the realm from a war
My biggest issues with the show, which could be George’s or may not be:
-I don’t buy Alicent having a closer relationship with Rhaenyra than her sons, both of them.
-They’ve made Aemond and Aegon enemies of each other rather than working together. I don’t like that change either.
-I read the book story as primarily being a fight between two sides of a family, granted that both sides are partly dysfunctional, like lots of families. But the show has turned into the war of all against all within each side of the family: Not just Daemon being a bossy playboy and that angering Rhaenyra, but Aegon and Aemon and Alicent all out to kill each other. I hate that direction and that’s not how I read the original.
There’s a principal with a lot of families that we may argue all the time, but it’s our family first with any external fight, and that’s completely the way I read the fight between the Blacks and Greens in the book. That struck me as real (and made the characters relatable) while the show characters I don’t believe (and can’t relate to at all); they seem manufactured to be “Game of Thrones” characters vis-a-vis each other like how Varys, Littlefinger, and Renly are to each other, but those characters aren’t two brothers and their mother! The show rings false to me.
The rivalry between Renly and Stannis was very well done, but not every two brothers are like that. Villains are more interesting if they have some appealing qualities; George Martin gets that. It would be a much more interesting story if Aegon and Aemond cared about each other and supported each other despite all their big flaws that they have made a huge deal of in the show!
Aemond fighting Aegon is diabolical and adds nothing to the story.
You are comparing Aegon/Aemond to Stannis/ Renly and yet, Stannis purposedly murdered his brother as well. There really is anything inherently bad with either of these relationships. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it was bad.
As for the Alicent abandoning her 2 sons, Alicent met with Aegon twice after Rook's Rest, and both times, the maester told her he might not make it. That he is good as dead. Aemond has basically threatened Helaena to battle, to death. It's quite clear Alicent loves Helaena more than any of her sons. It got across to me she would rather keep Helaena safe than continuing this useless war.
@@MayhapsYes But Stannis was older brother.f
@@JarinCOD Ok, but does that make a good excuse for Stannis to murder his little brother?
@@MayhapsYes That still doesn't excuse the fact that DAeron got a death sentence despite being a good kid. And to play Devil's advocate, Halaena is needed to fight to protect her family from the Blacks fighting to kill Aemond, Aegon and whoever resists them taking over. That's how war is, them losing could also result in Halaena and her daughter dying or be separated while the rest of their family is killed due to being on the wrong side.
Fighting means he is not writing.
It could be good rage fuel since he only wrote A song of ice and fire after getting sick of 1980s *Hade's code with all the censorship.
😢
Shoehorning in the Others is almost certainly the network’s doing. It reeks of “corporate synergy.”
I’ve had a weird feeling that HBO has been pushing the “connect to Game of Thrones” agenda with House of the Dragon, since a lot of the ways it’s been brought in have been kinda clunky. Beyond that, hoping that Condal and Martin can manage to bring back 10 episode seasons or at the very least add a season or two
then why cut Cregan?
I'm sorry but this notion that the book version of Blood and Cheese would be unacceptable to the audience is absurd. Think back to the Red Wedding in GOT which is similar in shock value and brutality. That scene got people talking and increased viewership going foward. Now what if D&D had the same fear that the audience couldn't handle the book version of the Red Wedding so they only had Rob Stark killed and didn't show the huge massacre along with it? I doubt it would've had people talking as much and telling their friends and coworkers about this shockingly brutal scene that they need to see. Point being, they didn't tone down the Red Wedding for the tv audience and it definitely didn't turn the audience off. I mean Jesus, they added a pregnant woman getting stabbed in the stomach multiple times. I'm pretty sure that same audience can handle the book version of Blood and Cheese
I've said it before but I wonder about the actors salaries. My guess is that Matt Smith, Emma D'arcy and Olivia Cooke are getting paid the most so they would get the most screen time even though at this point in the war they aren't the focus. So the two Rhaenyra and Alicent meeting scenes, were those in for story reasons or because Emma and Olivia needed more to do.
Over what? Bad writing. But you can't accept that as an argument as long as you think season 2 was good, even solid.
but specifically what ideas?
@@thedragondemands5186 Overall structure:
1. Complete lack of tension and investment:
How many tense moments were there? Did we care for anyone during the Rhaenyra trials, where she was putting all those people in front of the dragon to see if he burns them? Or how about Rheynys? All I though was "good, that's what you get for killing 100s of innocent people")
2. lackluster and incomplete exposition of the characters involved:
I challenge anyone (who hasn't read the books) to give me all names of Rhaenyra's council members without looking it up.
Then we have the two houses slaughtering each other at the very beginning of the episode. Who are these guys? Why should I care?
How about Corlys and his sons. I don't even remember their names.
3. Waste of time:
Why did they go with Daemon tripping balls the whole time? Why not send him further to the Riverlands and create an intrigue between him and all the Riverlords, trying to sway them to his side? "But we did have it" - it wasn't fleshed out enough. It could've been such an interesting subplot, but it turned out to be... nothing?
It's even worse when we realise that if we take that whole subplot out of the show, barely anything changes. The only difference would be the lack of the Riverlords' support for Rhaenyra, which given how many dragons she has, might not be that important after all.
Adaptation:
1. Why are they so desperatly trying to take any initiative away from Rhaenyra and Alicent? They're trying tu push the message that men are the ones pushing for war, and women want to preserve peace. The problem is - it doesn't work at all. If they have no decision making power, no ideas of their own, why should I care how they end up?
There's many more, but I haven't read the books, just read the Wiki and watched some UA-camrs, but from what I've heard, the books' story is much better.
Things not making sense:
-why did Rhaenys turn back in the battle of Rook's Rest?
-how did a vision of some frosty boys and a girl's buttcrack with a dragon convince Daemon to support Rhaenyra?
-how was it so easily for both Alicent and Rhaenyra to sneak into each other's strongholds?
-why did ALL the people prefer to be burned down by Daemon, instead of joining him? No human on the planet would act like that.
-why did Helena stop caring about her child getting murdered? "People die all the time, especially babes". Really?
I could go on and on, I wrote here just a few of all the problems of this season. Being non-native in English makes it even harder.
Point being - just like engineering or playing an instrument - screenwriting is a craft, with established rules. And season 2 of HotD violates many of them - who knows which more than the other - making the whole thing objectively badly written.
Is my response satisfying?
@@thedragondemands5186 Did my comment disappear?
First half was fine 🤷🏻♂️
Peple keep talking about how HotD S2 ruined it all but for me, the show's story was ruined as soon as Rhnyra-Ali patched up and became friends in S1Ep8. That post-dinner friendship scene is where HotD got wrecked and never recovered!! Whatever happened in S1Ep9 was absolute joke. Alicent vs Otto race to capture Aegon was hilariously dumb. Plus, Rhaenys killing hundreds of people in dragonpit was ridiculous. All of that nonsense were clear signs that show is becoming horrible but people didn't pay attention then. Then we have S2Ep3, when show truly died for me. We have Rhaenys who tells Rhaenyra that she can meet Alicent and somehow stop war. Like..HOW THE F?? what does Rhaenys think thats gonna happen? How Alicent and Rhnyra would stop the war when it is establish both wants the throne at any cost? Show had its great moments but the friendship factor between all the women ruined whole thing.
I felt 100% the same shift you mentioned, and it was made even worse watching the After the episode where they just randomly mention that Alicent has become super religious out of penance for attempting to kill Rhae. Which, not a bad idea on paper, but it completely is nonexistent in the show. Alicent is only religious during the court episode and it comes off as "holier than thou" than genuine faith. Even worse is when she NEVER does any of this again. Not even when it would give her better motivations. Her not wanting Rhanyra and her children killed for example, is because she doesn't want Aegon or any of them stained with the sin of kinslaying and assasinating defenseless people.
If I was fighting with Condal, it'd be over ruining the story by messing up Nettles, Morning, Aegon younger on Stormcloud, Mealor at Bitterbridge, Alys' baby with Aemond, and all the other wonderful pieces of the story that will no doubt get cut. There's still time to save all of this, I'm so worried that it'll all be cast aside though!
Pretty sure it about Condal considering he named him. Maybe Condal hasn’t told him everything if GRRM out of the loop but it’s clear GRRM is unhappy and it rolls into his other posts about writers adapting which he was angry about how they do what they want and thinking they know better with IP
Think it likely Condal is on side with HBO because he wants to make the show whether he agrees or doesn’t with changes. People forget that movies and tv shows are consistent debates of persuasion
He can attack Condal because Condal can’t touch his money. HBO can.
@@bshaddoHBO can't either. It's already contracted
I think the issue here is a combination of all three narratives:
- yes, HBO is at fault for shoehorning in certain plot points (Dany, the Others) as well as cutting the episodes down to 8.
- yes, the Writers Room have made negative changes to fit what they believe is superior to the source material (Rhaenyra and Alicent blameless in anything, complete character U-turns, Blood & Cheese lacking Haelanas decision)
- yes, GRRM has finally woken to the fact his legacy as one of the great fantasy writers is in jeopardy. I think he is also frustrated at his own lack of work on Winds and death of motivation to actually finish his Magnus opus.
When it comes to HOTD S2, the blame is shared between HBO and the writers. Had HBO kept 10 episodes and had the writers been both brave and humble enough to follow the source material, we would’ve had a 10/10 season.
Game of Thrones left out key characters in Lady Stoneheart, Young Griff, and etc. so once you do that the show was always going to be different in the end from the books. It also didn't help that Dan and Dave wanted to "subvert expectations" or that they were in such a hurry to get their new Star Wars gig that they ended the show prematurely and badly.
HoTD is HBO's second try and the material it is based on is vague and sparse. There is a lot of wiggle room when it comes to fleshing out characters and the plot but if you have a mandate that says can't make the female characters look bad you are going to have a problem writing this story. No where in Fire and Blood did it speak about Rhaenys bursting through the floor at Aegon's Coronation killing thousands of innocent people. It doesn't happen in the book, it is a huge event and that is never dealt with in the show. It was done to give Rhaenys a huge girl boss moment but is then ignored by the characters and writers. In the end it made Rhaenys look ridiculous to the audience whenever she spoke about caution and compassion.
Alicent and Rhaenyra don't have happy endings in the book and they are not portrayed as tragic heroines in Fire and Blood. The show writers are trying to make both of them central characters of the story and make them likable to the audience and for the most part they have succeeded. However the story of The Dance of the Dragons is the story of two women whose actions and ambition bring about a devastating Civil War that kills hundreds of thousands of people in Westeros, kills off the dragons, and ultimately weakens the Targaryen's power.
Certain things have to happen in the story, and certain characters have to be there to propel events for it to end a certain way. If you start changing things even little things the story doesn't make sense to the audience.
If GRRM doesn't like the way they are doing this he better have it written into his contracts that he has creative control. I would also be more sympathetic to him if he finished Song of Ice and Fire. Not only is he 13 years overdo with that book but he also has to finish Blood and Fire and also Dunk and Egg. He needs to stop starting new things and concentrate on finishing up the projects he has, and if he is having a problem doing that he needs to hire some people to help him.
My biggest concern has to be the episode count. I do have other problems with HotD as a whole but the shrinking of seasons is not going to make anything better.
My only advice to Martin is that if you want to keep the purity of your work, don't sell it to people who have fucked you around before. As someone who is writing a book series, I will never allow anyone to buy it to make it. Why? I see who I see for my characters and I see my story so lovingly that if anyone got a hold of it to change it so radically, I'd be upset. I also have some very controversial stuff in my story and I don't see someone telling my story faithfully. I haven't read the books so I'm not so in love with it I'm disappointed. I think what it is about Martin that I have a hard time getting through his books is all the side stuff. He bloats his stories so much it's hard sometimes to keep track. The fans should be happy Condal isn't D&D.
I have to ask what about Healena and Alicent they are fundamentally different character. Specially Alicent they did wonderfully whit her in season 1. She was deep complex both bad and good. But at her core her motivation was to protect her kids. Then the last episode of season 2 she betrays her whole family and agrees that she can kill Aegon. And let’s be real kill Dearon Aemond, Otto, Cole and her brother Gwayne.
The only silver lining in this is if Martin is completely disheartened by yet another HBO series, he might just spend his time writing rather trying to help make a good show.
I don't see how anything can be fixed at this point whether it is the just the cuts or cuts and the screen writer.
Uh no. Martin just posted about another show, A knight of the seven kingdoms, and how much all the characters came to life on set. He's moving on to this show, it seems.
@@MayhapsYes
It seems to me that GRRM understands very well that his magnum opus will never be finished, which means that his main *legacy* will now be the TV shows.
Hey brother one idea I had: all GRRM's complaining about Maelor being cut and its impact on Helena, I think he is actually talking about the death of Rhaenyra and how it is not possible if they had Sunfire killed. He means he saw how they planned having Rhaenyra killed.
George explaining how he accepted the blood and cheese changes because actual children were involved could be reflecting how he feels about not having Rhaenyra devoured and p o ably inexcusable in contrast
probably wants to have her eaten by syrax loll
I’m pretty sure Rhaenyra is also vulnerable to conventional attacks.
Ive been wondering about this also. I hope Sunfyre survived since we hardly got to see him and he’s still supposed to fight Moondancer (Sun and Moon symbolism there) and his scene with Rhaenyra. I really hope they don’t give those to Aemond and Vhagar. I actually would be ok if they gave it to Helaena and Dreamfyre as revenge for Blood and Cheese but Helaena seems over that. I really hope they don’t have Rhaenyra and Alicent run away together or die in each other’s arms like Romeo and Juliet
Sunfyre is definitely alive in the show. Many thinking he was dead/close to death before mysteriously disappearing is part of the book. When Aegon hears rumor of a golden dragon being seen on dragonstone, it totally reinvigorates him. His arc is close to what it needs to be as of now. He won’t make it to Essos due to the impending sea battle and will settle in as a commoner on dragonstone.
Condal is in a tough spot, he wants to please HBO and GRRM. The issue is that HBO comes first if he wants to continue having a career in television
I don't think that comparing the freedom that Benioff and Weiss got in Game of Thrones with Condal's situation in House of the Dragon is fair, purely because Game of Thrones ended up being the biggest flop of TV history with that awful Season 8. If anything, it should be more reason to give LESS creative freedom to Condal, given how last time they did that it went so poorly. In fact, the new heads at Warner might be overcompensating now by being too strict in fear of repeating that mistake, which would also partially explain the episode cuts.
My feeling that most of the issues are due to Studio parent company Warner Bro Discovery. The few things are having babies in a show is problematic because studio has to hire multiple babies for that role and is expensive. The show runners will still have to invest in Maegor to make the audience understand why characters are affected by his demise. Young children in any show is one of the biggest expenses if they are more than cameos. Studios have to follow certain laws with child actors because of massive scandals in the past. The House of the Dragon is an expensive show from special effects standpoint. Children in any show are worked around the hours that they can work. Dragons are expensive and cutting characters make sense to pay for that and it's not as big expense in the original series or Duncan and Egg show. Condal still has to listen HBO and WB Discovery and they said cut costs. I believe that Studios has the control in this situation.
Sure, Condal was pretty faithful to Fire & Blood in season 1…but D&D was pretty faithful to ASOIAF in the first 4 seasons too, and look what they did with seasons 5-8. 🤷♀️
They did give screen time to Rhaenyra & Alicent screen time to the detriment of other characters. We definitely should’ve seen Jace meeting with lady Jeyne Arryn and more with Cregan Stark.
Personally I don’t care that much about Nettles, but Rhaena abandoning Rhaenyra’s son in order to sneak off to claim a dragon? Rhaenyra’s gonna be pissed!
I think you hit on something with your comment on the ending, because that was everyone’s complaint about GOT. I admit I haven’t read all of Fire and Blood yet (I prefer to watch to show and then catch up), but I know the jist of how the Dance ends, and I find it plausible that HBO would be anxious about how to wrap up this plot in a way that satisfies the audience and also leaves the door open to tell stories in other eras (conquest, etc.) because they’re probably not going to do another series if HOTD doesn’t stick the landing.
Making the drive to my son’s soccer game better!
The negativity that I have seen directed towards Hess has not been based on her gender or sexuality, but her writing decisions. Afaik she is responsible for the Rhaenys scene in S1E9 which ruined her character for the sake of *female empowerment* (according to producer comments), and she is also responsible for S2E8 where coincidentally once again female characters get ruined by very, very questionable writing/character decisions. These are some of the worst and most harmful scenes in the entire series.
Thank you I'm glad somebody gets it!..I truly believe she's one of the main problems!.
It doesn't help that she is also an executive producer and is speaking out alot more than the other writers. Like she literally reposted a fan post about how Westeros should have be co ruled by two queens (Rhaenyra and Alicent) which just makes it obvious she has her favorites.
@@Ashbrash1998 That would make no political or governmental sense. It's like saying America should've been co-ruled by Romney and Obama.
No one’s talking about this but, I’m worried about the Aegon III & Viserys II plot line. They look very young and Stormcloud was nowhere near large enough for Aegon to ride and they’re leaving for Pentos as of Episode 8. Either they’re both going to be lost at the gullet or both recovered by Corlys which…lame either way.
Martin is traumatized by D&D now that Ryan Condall is becoming like them in season 2 he had enough. Of course he is mad with Zaslav too.
I don't think so. I think he is more traumatized by how bad fans took his ending. He needs these shows to redeem his legacy which is fading fast
I mean if Sarah Hess wrote bad scripts and had terrible ideas for the show, it would have been Condals Job to stop that or let her rewrite it. I'm not sure how much influence she had on the show as a whole, granted she is one of the lead writers. But still, it remains Condals fault for letting something like that happen, so I really don't blame Hess. If it turns out that Condal is not able to influence the writing because of Hess or whoever, only then I would blame her.
We're waiting for for the second shoe to drop after GRRM's weird (and quickly deleted) post.
We have to hope there won't be a second shoe.
Second half of season 2 was bad. A lot of that is the writers strike, hitting the rewrites of those smaller face to face scenes. But by the old gods and the new they better make Rhaenyra a rubbish ruler and Daeron a proper hero.
George is warning us
I wouldn't mind changes to the source material if the show's vision was actually better storytelling than the book, but it's not. General audiences are saying Rings of Power season 2 was better than HotD s2. That's a very low bar. What we saw on screen felt like a rough draft, but fundamentally they made some major mistakes that I wouldn't have thought to make as a mediocre writer.
This, I think, might be a good place for a reasonable discussion on one of the decisions the showrunners made in Season 02 of HOTD. I am talking specifically about the revelation in the final episode of season 2 of how Daemon was being manipulated by others through the medium of dreams/the weirwoodnet, to change his mind/perspective/actions going forward. I have seen a lot of responses by diverse fans, but also, interestingly including some assumedly older school book fans like myself, that were very negative about this change/inclusion. So for myself, I was personally very disappointed that they continued to use the GOT version of the visuals/character design of The Others in that sequence. However, from a storyline and character development perspective, I couldn't understand why even book fans seemed to have a problem with it. Characters being manipulated by others without their knowledge, through dreams and prophetic visions, is 100% classic Song of Ice and Fire material. In the main series it happens to Jamie, to Jon, to Danyeris to Bran (extensively), to so many characters in really pivotal parts of their stories. So this response to that part of HOTD s02 just leaves me confused.
You're right that it's established well in universe/books, and I think the main thing is that people are still carrying their hatred of S8 of GoT into this, so anything around prophecy/magic/weirwoods/greenseers/wargs etc triggers people.
I had a supremely negative reaction to seeing this season 8-style white walker. I only came around to accepting it via discussions and comments like this.
I hate what GoT did with the white walkers, and how they look. They are also not scary if you keep showing them, it destroys the mystery and the idea of a great unknown danger.
At least they haven’t gone full rings of power on him. Poor Tolkien, it’s not just that the story doesn’t fit with the first trilogy( even though they clearly try to force the connection on you while watching with all the obvious hints) and it doesn’t fit with the books at all…. My biggest issue with the last of GOT and ROP is its plain retarded and boring, the show standing all by itself with no connection to anything but itself, it just plain sucks.
@@williamharris1890 it improved in season 2
When TDD uploads, it's a good day
Clearly, he’s mad, mad enough to make a post. Mad enough to bring the hole fandoms attention to it.
Mad enough to not write winds.
I heard from the news that Tom Glynn Carney says season 3 will follow the books
yeah but he also described different things
I don't think he has read the books, granted maybe he has. But I feel its hard for that to be 100% true without the scripts being done or filming being started.
The only way they can do it is a 10 episode? That it for season 3-4
Dude "Condal was really, really faithful to the story in season 1"? Are you serious?
I've been disagreeing with you for a while, but this is too much.
As an adaptation it's been a disaster from the start. And as its own thing, it's not that good either.
Have any of the major cast members have commented on the on this controversy (or hinted at their own personal opinions on this topic).
no
I would love for each season to have had 13 episodes, including the ones to come. It's possible that the financiers (not the studio) could've put oversight into the season along with less funding thus making WBD push for certain things and reduce the episode count. A long shot possibility but one worth considering. Especially if there are institutional investors.
There are some writing decisions that were baked in long before the strike and episode cut when you consider there were 4-5 draft revisions of each script and statements in interviews from both Hess and Condal before they started working on season 2. Plus, there is still a person who has the job of ensuring continuity.
On Zaslav wanting Harry Potter to be the flagship series of HBO, it makes sense. Harry Potter has the pre-existing films, a theme park, branded costumes worn by both kids and adults, and one of the most popular video games in the past few years in Hogwarts Legacy. ASOIAF doesn't have the third-party revenue opportunities as Harry Potter. And Zaslav just secured a new deal with Charter.
HP as spinoffs not a redo!
@@thedragondemands5186 I only watched the HP movies but I've heard that a lot was cut from the books for time. Was I misinformed on this?
@KainBooks you are correct. But the first two movies ( so the first two seasons of the upcoming series ) were pretty faithful. You can watch the first two movies and go straight to book 3.
What gets to me is that Martin can criticize HoD here in detail but couldnt with the final seaaon? Weird indeed
GRRM is now more than five years older, and the likelihood of ASOIAF ever being finished is correspondingly diminished.
It makes him more invested in the TV shows.
A TV show should not be keeping you up at night
I'm starting to think Martin might be the issue here. This is shades of D&D all over again, and may be a reason why they stopped listening him at a cetain point. Granted it was to their and the shows detriment, but Condal and this group of writers seem much more dedicated to following Martin's blueprint (Fire & Blood), as flawed as it may be. On a certain level he has to let them do their jobs, although after what happened with D&D he might not be so willing to let another show go off the rails again.
I'm inclined to agree.
Of course it would be nicer to think that his complaints are reasonable and not an old man shouting at clouds, but it does seem very possible that's what's happening.
I think George stans are wrong. It might have finished faster but I bet it stayed on the rails. They just took his notes and finished without the connecting filler that made the early seaso s better
GRRM should have put stipulations when he sold the rights of his books . Didn't he learn his lesson? He could have had control on everything but I guess is not a good businessman. Two important stipulations should have been 10 episodes only and changes approved by him. I still love the show . All the fighting , all the betrayals . The two brothers fighting makes sense to me. Loved that storyline . Maybe HBO is waiting for Trump to give them the tax brakes
Boy you really hate Zaslav ! Zaslav is trying to dig WB out of the huge deep pit that his predecessors put it in. And when you look at it objectively Harry Potter has a more wide ranging audience than Game of Thrones and it is a finished story. The only problem that fans had with the movie series is that it had to leave things out of the story because of time. A series would allow for a more detailed adaptation of the books and JK Rowling has the time to devote to overseeing it. The Hogwarts game proved that it will be profitable so WB is going to invest in it.
WB got burned by Dan & Dave as well as GRRM. They started GOT assuming George was going to finish the books - he didn't. GOT worked when D&D stuck to the source material when they ran out of the source material they got creative and they didn't have the talent and it showed. HoTD is based on a book that is written as a history book with unreliable narrators it is very sparse. Condal has been able to flesh out this material, but it has and it hasn't been as faithfully adapted because the source material is sparse and GRRM doesn't have the time to help with that, because he hasn't finished ASOIAF.
You as head of WB have a finite amount of money to spend on projects. What is the better investment?
Harry Potter has a broader fan base, it is a finished story, and the author is going to help to write scripts to adapt her story into a series.
GOT is made for an adult audience, it is an unfinished series with some material that can be adapted to a movie or miniseries if the showrunners are talented, but the author help is sporadic at best. If you are a competent business man you are going to pick Harry Potter, it is the better investment of time and money.
The people bemoaning the lack of “female” scheming give me the impression that the grifterverse is using this situation as an excuse to shriek woke. Guess they think their audience is too stupid to remember that they whined about the same shit in season 1, while GRRM and non-weirdo audiences still praised the show.
Season 1 was pretty boring and had too many weird birth scenes
Shoehorning in the Others is almost certainly the network’s doing. It reeks of “corporate synergy.” Nettles might be the result of it; they didn’t have time to write her this season in a way that didn’t make her look like a Magical Black Person.
And George will tacitly accept credit for ANY improvement, even if it was already in the works without him. He main not mean it to be, but he’s pulling a con.
just an easter egg
Basically David Zaslav is HBOs Version of Star Wars Kathleen Kennedy both need to be removed for the damage they are doing to beloved franchises
.....by that analogy he's more of a Bob Chapek
The people who ran Warner Brothers before it was handed off to Zaslav put Warner Brothers deeply in debt. Zaslav has been trying to dig them out. Decisions made by Anne Sarnov and Toby Emmerich put the company in a dire place financially. But previous WB heads just didn't care because AT&T would keep bailing them out. Well AT&T got tired of WB losing them money and spun them off under Zaslav. Blaming Zaslav isn't fair he is trying to put the WB back into profitability. Comparing Zaslav to Kennedy is wrong.
Kennedy has been trying to change Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and Willow to reflect her political and personal philosophy and doing so has caused catastrophic brand damage. And unlike the heads of AT&T who got tired of losing money and put Zaslav in to stop the hemorrhage of money. Disney and Bob Iger have aided and abetted Kathleen Kennedy's stupidity to this day, because Iger doesn't want to admit that they screwed up.
I said this a lot back when I was defending the final season of Game of Thrones. But whether it's George or some other book writer who sale they're TV rights, companies nor directors and TV writers care about the book product they're adapting. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule but the line ALWAYS USED IS, "THE BOOK IS THE BOOK THE MOVIE IS THE MOVIE' or TV show... whatever. But that's how it goes. Then the directors shit on the writing staff and the writing staff is shit on by the production company, and the directors and production...it's usually a mixed bag but they hate each other too. It's always an idea shot down or something needs changing. Often times on shows as big as HOTD or GOT its weeks for a few minutes or seconds of film not including reshoots. George sold his rights to make some money at the end of the day so HBO can do what they want because they know we will watch anyways. George isn't fighting anyway but he is probably frustrated. He said months ago they sent him a rough cut of the first two episodes of season 2... That's usually a no-no and if you sent it to a lead actor you can bet they didn't watch it and will have words about it in some passive aggressive way (leaning more on the aggressive) because it's just bad manners. They sent George a rough of 2 episodes to his house. They don't value his opinion "just say something because the show is premiering" basically. And that also means he's not on set and not really giving counsel. It's also very likely HBO wants they're moneys worth out of Emma, Olivia, and Daemon and Cole (I forgot they're names) so expect a lot of shit to fall flat from here on out. This is just my opinion I've been a writer in Hollywood, not very long and not on something as big and successful as what GRRM has created but I can tell you for sure, they don't give a shit about what we want as fans and writers are tired of not being able to see they're own content or not even having time to work on it.