**TIMESTAMPS BELOW*** A MASSIVE compilation of my DPOY focused videos. What’s the biggest DPOY snub you’ve ever seen? Introduction to the series 0:17 If DPOYs Were Given to the BEST Defender (60s) 1:49 BRAND NEW If DPOYs Were Given to the BEST Defender (70s-2019) 8:06 If DPOYs Were Given to the BEST Defender (2020s) 1:05:50 BRAND NEW Top 10 DPOY Seasons of All Time 1:12:14 Top 10 NON-DPOY Seasons of All Time 1:22:44 Top 10 Defenders of All Time 1:32:02
@jonnyarnett Hi Jonny, greetings from Ireland! Huge fan of your content! Regarding your recent breakdown of Jordan's DPOY steals and blocks, you concluded at the end of that video that MJ's blocks were actually UNDER credited but you believe his steals were inflated. Since the release of that video, countless people in your comment section have noted that your conclusion that the steals were inflated, simply does not explain the obvious surplus/deficit correlation between the steals and blocks that you tracked in those 10 games. Additionally, many of your viewers have also pointed to the fact that steals were interpreted differently in that Era, rendering your assessment of MJ's steals using today's rules, inapplicable. I note that you have since acknowledged these observations in your comment section and vowed to release a follow up video. I'm wondering when you plan on releasing this follow up video? My apologies in advance if my comment is a little lengthy but there are several important factors omitted from your original analysis that I'm hoping you will address... The footage from your analysis of those 10 games revealed 15 occasions where Jordan got his hand on the opponent's ball, disrupting the offense and causing a deflection, you assessed these deflections as 15 'possible blocks' but noted that the Statistician did NOT credit these 15 blocks to MJ's official block count. That's a crucial discovery, and incidentally, one that Haberstroh completely failed to mention in his article, despite claiming to have analysed 6 of those games. Here is an important question that has not yet been answered... If that Statistician in 1987/88 was purposely inflating Jordan's defensive stats, why would he UNDER credit Jordan's blocks? If his goal truly was to inflate Jordan's defensive stats, there is no question that he would have credited every single one of those 15 'possible blocks' to MJ's block count...but he didn't. However, despite this surplus of blocks, you still conclude at the end of the video that the steals were intentionally inflated! I'm sorry Jonny but I don't understand how you didn't connect the dots here because it's obvious to any rational person that there was no 'gifting' of steals, the Statistician clearly assessed those 15 'possible blocks' as steals and credited them to MJ's steal count. It's the most logical explanation for Jordan's block count being UNDER credited. The question is, was the Stat-keeper correct in categorising those 15 deflections as steals...should they have been labelled as blocks? In order to answer that question, more detailed research needs to be conducted into the rules of that Era and how blocks and steals were consistently interpreted at that time. I watched an old 1992 Bulls regular season game last week and noticed that on 2 separate occasions Jordan got his hand on the opponent's ball in the passing lane, deflecting the ball to two of his teammates and the commentator announced 'another steal for MJ ' on both occasions, indicating that steals were credited to the player causing the deflection, which is not consistent with how you analysed MJ's steals during your original breakdown. Also, something else that wasn't accounted for in your video is the fact that the Statisticians in the 80's didn't have the luxury of relying on instant replay or multiple camera angles, they had to make an assessment in real time, from the sidelines, so it's highly plausible that, from the vantage point of the Statistician, an occasional block may have been mistakenly interpreted as a steal. Either way, logic dictates Jordan's steals were not 'gifted' in those 10 games, the Statistician clearly placed those 15 'possible blocks' in the steals column. Finally, it's important to note, even if you are correct Jonny and your research into the rules of that Era proves that those 15 deflections should have been assessed as blocks and not steals, that would amount to stat misplacement, NOT stat inflation. There's a very important distinction there. In such case, Jordan's official steals count for those 10 games would indeed need to be reduced by 15, however, his official block count would then need to be INCREASED by 15. So no matter which way you slice it, whether those 15 deflections are placed in the steals column or in the blocks column, it wouldn't change Jordan's overall defensive stats in those 10 games because you would essentially be subtracting 15 from one defensive column and adding 15 to another defensive column, which of course would have zero impact on the validity of MJ's DPOY award. Just to reiterate, I think you did a great job overall on this topic, it's clear how much effort and hard work you put into it but a closer look at those steals is 100% warranted. It just doesn't make sense that a Stat-keeper intent on inflating Jordan's defensive stats would UNDER credit his blocks by 15 over the course of 10 games.
Nothing against the content or the creator, but the var isn't very high for sports content overall. Far too many posters are severely ignorant of history and context. There also exists a severe confirmation bias among youtubers. Regardless, Johnny puts in a lot of effort to mitigate all but his massive Kobe bias. Lol
I just want to say thank you Johnny because I definitely asked you to do the 60s and you did it within a month much appreciation to you, bro and the work you put in I literally increased my knowledge double since watching your channel and have unique appreciation for the old school basketball that was forgotten
I absolutely agree and the fact of the matter is today’s analyst or UA-camrs aside from Johnny literally use the time they played in, and then not having the stats recorded to diminish their legacy. Or the time that they played in which all of it is completely unfair to do to them. Another thing I feel they had to stop having Bill or Will be the goat because some of the accomplishments and accolades that they have done will never be able to be repeated. Winning 11 titles will never happen again. Winning 8 titles in a row will never happen again being a coach and a player at the same time will never happen again scoring 100 points in the game realistically probably isn’t happening ever again and averaging 50 and 25 will never happen again. And use the time they played into these kind of accolades. LeBron fans that logic against them saying that the 90s was trash. The truth is as time progresses. Every sport gets better and better. In terms of skill. And wisdom. The real truth of the matter is no player has control over the time that they were born and the time that they have when they are alive all you can do is use the time that was given to you and the time that was given to those two gentlemen they easily deserved to be called the goats of basketball. I almost consider them because their stats were not able to be recorded so many things they done will never be achieved again.
Like no players is ever going to win 11 titles again and if titles are the representation of who the goat is, then Bill would be the goat and no one’s ever getting there so it would ruin a lot of the debating for being the goat and stuff of that nature and my opinion, they had to change because Bill’s accolades were just too much Wilt Chamberlain were too much to accomplish again and so will diminish them so that we can go debate for players that are coming in presently and this is rinse and repeat all the way up until now.
@sablecal none of those things matter because the era they played in nobody was shooting good they played, and they high shooting era , which has more shot attempts than this era. That don’t diminish the fact that 11 titles is better than six by far and it ain’t even close and he coached his team to two titles while being a player and a coach at the same time not having Phil Jackson to run to the bench and save your role players.. on top of that they didn’t even record the stats that they were dominating in. 18 titles in a row more titles than Jordan has on his fingers within nine seasons. Don’t nobody control the time they played in. All they can do is make do with the time that they do have and nobody accomplished more than Bill Russell with 11 rings and two of them being a coach and a player at the same time. And defeating the first team juggernaut ever created by trades. And he did it as the eighth seed. Which was equivalent to the fourth seed of that time. Anyone trying to talk about efficiency and shit like that. Kobe Bryant has bad efficiency compared to Jordan, but played in our way harder defensive era than Jordan did. All the rules changed to stop iso basketball and to prevent players from being like Michael Jordan and Kobe was able to replicate it or do even better in terms of visuals because his defense is clearly shown that it’s better than any basketball era ever. LeBron plays in, arguably the softest era ever right now. Every single era is going to have something that can be picked apart on it and be able to use to diminish a players legacy and the same goals vice versa for upgrading their legacy. All that matters is how much you fucking win and how much are you? The reason that your team is winning that’s what determines who the goat is. And what you do off the court because you are a role model. And Michael Jordan into prison so his people get locked up in there just so he can dodge some taxes. Bill Russell was his racist ass people after winning multiple championships for them people broke into his house left manure all over his house repeated death threats. He’s the first player to boycott a game so people don’t join the game out of the disrespect that they were receiving. Civil rights for people who was getting absolutely oppressed. Like how is this even a debate to me It’s not even close.
@sablecal Bill Russell was like the leading center and assist for damn near 3040 years because of his unselfish play. All of those guys got to get all of the shot attempts and the offensive stats that they have on their team because they wouldn’t got that if they got to play with wilt. Russell’s approach to the game is why his team success happened as many times as it did. The Celtics never let the league in offense while with bill they won off defense, and Bill is the best defender of that time. And you playing lesser teams means you have to meet your opponent like Wilt, Chamberlain, Nate Thurman, Walt Bellamy. And others 10 times before you even made the playoffs. So that argument is not a proper case to put against him. He won while they were in their prime and he won while they were old and out of their prime and he was the coach when they were out of their prime and I’m talking about the Celtics as a whole. And he still won at that time, actually repeated being a coach and something Jordan could never even dream of doing. He accomplished more as a coach than some coaches do in their entire life and he did it in two years. Bill is the goat. His style of basketball leads to the most success leads to his teammates, playing at their best more than any basketball player, and the only argument you could argue is maybe Magic Johnson. That’s the guy who has an argument at his players actually playing and being unselfish and getting everyone involved and making sure everyone touches the ball. Wil, Chamberlain and Bill Russell averaging 20 possessions. They gave their team 20 possessions a game. Bill Russell had a 30 points and 40 rebounds in game to close out a game seven. He gave his team 40 possessions. To have opportunities to even score the basketball. if you’re going to try and hold the error against Bill, then you can do the same against Michael Jordan because the 90s was ass as well. And plenty of people are proving it now on UA-cam. Michael Jordan lost to a CEO of whatever company. During Michael Jordan summer camp. He lost to 6 foot two maybe shorter guy who doesn’t play professional basketball. And you can tell very clearly. He beat Michael Jordan one on one. After Michael Jordan was talking shit. Jordan Fans say Jordan would lock curry up lmao And 20 years from now they’re going to use that very same argument against LeBron in this area up that was 20 years ago. We’re way better at basketball now than you guys were then so that argument is just a pathetic attempt at trying to make your era greater than another. All that matters is what you did during the time you had. Bill Russell accomplished more winning than any other basketball player has done in their entire career. In fact, he did it within nine years he had more rings than every basketball player in NBA history. He could’ve retired then and he’d be the goat. He had to go on and win two more championships as a coach And a player.
@sablecal Bill in all of his series that led to seven games he averages 19 points and 22 rebounds and some of those series they got up to 24 points and 25 rebounds don’t talk to me about scoring he didn’t need to score. He made his teammates better by being a team player. Your whole argument isn’t saying much. It doesn’t stop the fact that he’s the greatest defensive player of all time defense wins championships as shown in every sport. It is the epitome of success and he is the greatest basketball player ever accomplished the greatest achievements ever. You keep talking about scoring as scoring was what was winning championships Michael Jordan was the scorer Kobe was a was a scorer you combine both those guys careers and they only add up to 11 championships lmao Kobe’s my favorite basketball player by . Do you know what the narrative was behind those guys that you can’t win that style Wilt was doing 50 a night and he still couldn’t win with that style consistently. Bills style of game is greater than an individual player trying to dominate Bill Russell understood this and his team was the most successful team in history. You clearly don’t understand this because you’re trying to bring up stats to a guy who plays on the side of a court that stats can’t even equate or tell the whole story of defense stats. Stats surface level so much more than that and he would have probably seven finals MVPs up to 10 and he would probably have up to 10 defensive player of the year awards which is greater than any achievement Michael Jordan would have. You’re doing everything you can to try a man who has five more titles than the so-called goat. he would have more finals MVPs than Jordan has rings held the award finals. FMVP is called the Bill Russell award because it’s named after the greatest player of all time and that sport is the greatest award you can have in the sport.
After learning more about Bill Russell through your videos I have to say he is honestly underrate. I couldn’t consider not having him in the top 10 like some do nowadays. He and wilts legacies are hurt by a lack of awards and defensive stats available in that era. Incredibly clutch too, never lost a game 7, especially in the 1969 nba finals as a player coach, “those f*cking balloons are staying up there”, that was like something out of a movie, killer instinct.
no bs Mark Eaton was my great uncle in law he was actually an incredible dude massive too but i got the chance to talk to him for a solid 30 mins one thanksgiving when he paid for the entire family to come out to St George Utah and eat at an incredible private golf club we talked about playing against MJ and playing with Stockton and Malone its an experience ill never forget so sad to hear he passed away a few years ago when he had a heart attack on his motorcycle. One of the coolest things he did for me knowing im a huge Notre Dame fan was get my father and I signed Notre Dame footballs by the real Rudy Ruttiger and Sean Astin. Fly High Mark 🕊️
The year before Russell was drafted, the Celtics were 6/8 in defensive rating. The year after he retired, the Celtics were 8/14 in def rating. While he was playing, the Celtics had the best defense 12/13 years with one 2nd best defense. You really cant overstate his defensive impact.
ngl… not much of a commenter.. however you guy. when it comes to historicals.. you got it. Period. Ive been a long time subscriber. Keep it up! and road to 250k!
Imagine If DPOYs And FMVPs Was A Thing Back Then !! Bill Russell 11x Champ 10 Or 11x FMVP, 5x MVP And 11x DPOY Along With Multiple Steal And Block Titles.... Whew!
There is a big difference with most MJ fans criticizing Lebron, and most Lebron fans criticizing MJ. Mj fans are alive to see both play. Most Lebron fans never saw MJ other than highlights. In fact a lot of Lebron fans don't even watch Lebron, they watch highlights and listen to Dick Wright type of media. I particularly know Lebron fans that actually don't watch basketball at all. They are just fans of the person they think is the current best. This is why its ridiculous to even argue with them.
thats partially true, many older mj and other fans just go on about how they cant watch basketball and they havent since like 2014 because they dont like it sad world enjoying players over enjoying the sport
Just wanted to use the chance to comment a bit about Big Ben. I agree that Wallace can't go much higher than what Jonny has him in the different lists here (especially the top defenders) because of longevity, but if you happened to be watching bball in the 00s, then you know how absurdly good was that man during his peak. He was the best rebounder in the league while competing with guys like Shaq, Duncan, KG, Yao, etc. He was a top 2 shot blocker at least (anybody remember Theo Ratliff? Anyone? No?) and very good at stealing the ball for a center. He would lock down your best interior player, but he would also lock a perimeter player because he also happened to have great perimeter defense. He was also a king of hustle and the kind of guy who made others play better defense with his own defense. He was an absolute monster in defense. Enough to make All-Stars and the like while being.... lets just say not great at the offensive end. I think he's the one guy with 4 DPOYs that really never had that many detractors about them (I know Mutombo, Howard and Gobert sure have them)... and even had some people being like "well, yeah, but they probably should've been 5" because of '04. What a run for an undrafted player.
Awesome compilation again Jonny! You're always the first video I click in my feed. How is it going with the NBA 2K simulation of all your Ultimate Teams btw? Really looking forward to that one!
that's a great video that you just posted up there and knowledge for the younger kids generation like Ant-Man who doesn't know more about the league and its greats from the past . I also like how u point out the runners-up in every seasonpoint out there impactson there respect teams.. keep up the great work
If anything Marc Gasol was snubbed from the All NBA Defensive Team. Marc had the most impact on BOTH offense and defense in the best defense of the league, even more than Tony Allen. His super high-IQ was immortalized in that Raptors run to the title. Made their life so much easier against Philly and Milwaukee.
Great list Johnny, like the respect to Bobby Jones, I remember seeing old NBA entertainment VHS tapes with all those highlights and I'd be like who's that guy!? LBJ I dont think gets one his gaurding different positions is over hyped IMO, he gauded big men less than 2% of the time in a league where the big man wasn't the same as it once was the game started moving away from the post and out to the paint.
In the comment about the 70-ies edition, I said that I would be waiting for a video about the 60-ies NBA where you would give Bill Russell 9 straight DPOYs. Looks like I was not generous enough 😶
Bobby Jones is the most underrated defender/defensive player ever. he didn’t even make your honorable mentions for the best defenders and he’s got more first all defense selections than everyone else (i’m including his ABA stats).
I'm saying this as a die-hard knicks fan, but in 1971 Nate Thurmond definitely deserves the award. Surprised Nate didn't snag at least one...but he did play at the same time as Bill Russell...
A few notes to take away: Bill Russel is a legitimate Goat candidate The 70s Knicks were stacked prob a super team Hakeem is arguably the greatest defender but didn’t get robbed in 88 I’m glad you gave Wemby consideration. He’s my choice for instincts quickness and intimidation. Teams wouldn’t put the ball on the side of the court Victor was on
This is a topic we need to talk about more. The year Marcus smart got it. As a bucks fan I was LIVID jrue holiday wasn’t even being talked about. But that’s the bias large market teams get. Some mid defender can win awards over a player that completely outshined him. Now jrue is getting that respect finally because he joined that team
I would like to get the stats of number of blocks in which the blocker keeps the Ball...Watching Victor at that last year was amazing, it seems to do that at least 2 times per game that year. Dwight Howard seems to me to have done that about 3 times in 15 seasons or so in comparison
Tim Duncan was also amazing at that. I think those just count as a block and a rebound, so it is reflected in their rebound numbers. I always facepalm when a guy swats a ball into the stands, yells, and beats his chest. Then the opposing team just inbounds the ball again... like, awesome job, but how about take possession instead of show us how hard you can hit something?
Was your top 10 defenders video made before you learned about Bobby Jones? Just seems funny to see him get several hypothetical DPOYs but not even be an honorable mention on that list haha
Not gonna disagree but how about we get a who should've been DPOY and MVP for the era before Bill Russell would be intersting to see if this is even possible
The only thing I would change is Chamberlain having couple more DPOYs over Russell during the 60s. Russell deserves most of them but Chamberlain I think had couple noteworthy seasons
Lbj DPOY does not make sense only to prevent your choice of keeping Marc Gasol The Lbj case can not overcome Tony Allen who’s consistent enough to get one specially over LeBron
Its interesting that you ranked David Robinsons DPOY 5th of all time and also mentioned if he would have played more games he would be in the top 3 even compete the first, while you think in that season Dennis Rodman more deserved that award. My question ist that if the award really goes to Rodman than he would be ranked on the all time list so high as the Admiral too, so Rodman would have 2 spot in the all time top 5 list?
The tragedy here in this video is that Patrick Ewing has not been even mentioned. Lead the league in 1993-1995 in defensive win shares defensive rating and team defensive rating. Even out-defended Hakeem in the nba finals. Advanced stats were not generally used back then, but Johnny has all the means to look at it now. Ewing was simple stubbed!
I don’t understand why Bill Russell’s defense is being underrated in some spaces. I’ve seen somebody say Bill isn’t a top 5 defender and people were agreeing with no basis to that claim
Ben Wallace should have won the Dpoy 5 times. Their was no reason for Artest winning that award in 04. I disagree with Jonny, Bruce Bowen was a great defender, but Ben Wallace was far more Superior that year regular season end playoff defensively.
I think that Jonny would agree with you. Trouble is, DPOY is a purely regular season award, so he can't factor in Wallace's excellent playoff performance.
I still think Dennis Johnson should have won at least one in the 80s, and if it existed in the 70s, also then as well. He aas shutting down players like Alex English, George Gervin and michael Jordan
BOWENS SUCCESS THAT SEASON VS KOBE ..YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE FACT THAT KOBE GUARDED AND WAS SHUTTING DOWN GINOBLI AND PARKER IN THOSE GAMES..KOBE ALWAYS GUARDED THE OPPOSING TEAMS BEST SCORERS FROM THE 1 AND 2 AND SOMETIMES THE 3!!! POSITION... PLAYING GREAT DEFENSE HIMSELF WHILE BEING GUARDED BY THE OPPOSING TEAMS BEST DEFENDER WAS A TALL TASK THAT KOBE DONE MASTERFULLY FOR A LITTLE OVER A DECADE!!!!!
What's up Jonny since we talking about defense I want to give you my top three all defensive teams 1st team Forwards Bobby Jones Dennis Tim Duncan Center Bill Russell Guards Michael Jordan and The glove Gary Payton 2nd team Forwards Dennis Rodman and Scottie Pippen Center Hakeem Olajuwon Guards Michael Cooper and Kobe Bryant 3rd team Forwards Kevin Garnett and Bruce Bowen Center Wilt Chamberlain Guards Alvin Robertson and Chris Paul
Hakeem 1988 rightful DPOY. The DPOY vote is what is in question so using the DPOY votes here is invalid. The below aims to uncover who had more valid backing to be named DPOY in 1988. HAKEEM Steals per game: 2.1 Blocks per game: 2.7 Defensive Rebounds per game: 8.3 Defensive Win shares: 6.3 Defensive BPM: 2.2 Defensive Rating: 98.0 All-Defensive Voting Shares: 0.587 (coaches not media voted on this) JORDAN Steals per game: 3.2 Blocks per game: 1.6 Defensive Rebounds per game: 3.8 Defensive Win shares: 6.1 Defensive BPM: 4.2 Defensive Rating: 101.5 All-Defensive Voting Shares: 0.522 (coaches not media voted on this) COMPARISON Steals per game: JORDAN +1.1 Blocks per game: HAKEEM +1.1 Defensive Rebounds per game: HAKEEM +4.5 Defensive Win shares: HAKEEM +0.2 Defensive BPM: JORDAN +2 Defensive Rating: HAKEEM +3.5 (lower is better on this) All-Defensive Voting Shares: HAKEEM + 0.065 (coaches not media voted on this) JORDAN TOTAL +s: 3.6 HAKEEM TOTAL +s: 9.4 HAKEEM +6.3 difference overall 1st in league: Hakeem in DWS, DEF RATING, All-Defensive Voting Shares 1st in league: Jordan in DEF BPM, and SPG Hakeem 1st in 3 > Jordan 1st in 2 Hakeem’s rank in the “guard” stat of steals per game was higher than Jordan’s rank in the “center” stats of blocks per game. Overall average rank in defensive measures: Summary: 1. The overall defensive stat difference said Hakeem 2. the coaches said Hakeem 3. The more 1sts in the league defensive marks said Hakeem 4. The higher in the other’s supposed role of stat said Hakeem 5. The overall average defensive rank said Hakeem vs 1. The media said Jordan 2. Jordan fanatics said and still say Jordan There were 4 levels of statistical evidence and 1 level of coach opinion that favored Hakeem. There was 1 level of media voter opinion and 1 level of fanatic opinion that favors Jordan. • 5 statistical measures have more objective weight than 2 opinions Opinions are subjective. However, some opinions are more logically valid than others: • Opinion of those paid to strategize how players are used is logically more valid than the opinion of those who are paid for marketing and to get stories for TV programming. • Opinion of those paid to strategize how players are used is logically more valid than the opinion of those who are emotionally biased for whoever they like or were programmed by marketing to like. Most logical conclusion: Hakeem for 1988 DPOY > Jordan for 88 DPOY. *Possible Jordan fanatic ploys debunked: “Jordan was higher in stats for guards than Hakeem was for centers” This does not prove Jordan was higher defensively than Hakeem as a player of that year. The award is Defensive player of the year. It is not: Defensive player vs only 1 position defensive center of the year defensive guard of the year
At the time a Guard having 200 steals, and 100 blocks was was historically significant, kinda like when Russell Westbrook won MVP because of the triple double. So you might be right but there are occasions where the story or the historical impact gets celebrated because it's not just about numbers, by the there's a lot of subjectivity in counting STATs. Hakeem got his, it'd be different had he never won anything but that ain't the case.
@@mjsup1 A guard not doing it before does not change that Hakeem overall graded higher in defensive measures. Jordan having an arbitrary cut off of 200 stl and 100 blk does not change the gaps in those measures between the 2 that I showed. "by the there's a lot of subjectivity in counting STATs." This is an easy cop put when the data does not favor the one you like more. I mean any award is subjective. What I showed was that if we went by statistical data Hakeem should have won. Anyone can say "well I feel like it should have been my guy." I also broke down who had more objective backing and what is the more valid subjective.
@@BulletBill-yb3ti You broke it down well but you don't really understand how numbers are misleading sometimes, there are circumstances that can give a player advantages, and the Big Man always has those advantages as Johnny points out in his analysis. If you actually watch the games instead of looking at numbers you'd clearly see that the effort between the two was night and day and by just watching it looks as though Hakeem was a Great Defender no question but by the eye test Jordan was a demon on the defensive side, so the effort was rewarded, things like effort, heart, and determination aren't measured in STATs so even though you have good argument it not the end all beat all, it doesn't cover everything.
@@mjsup1 i did not claim those numbers cover every single action on the court though. However, they cover a lot more objectively than just saying "I feel like Jordan tried harder and I don't like it when someone is bigger than him." Effort and determination may make us feel good but those things do not = better defender. Muggsy Bogues can have the most heart, grit, aggression, intensity, effort ect that has ever been displayed on defense and he is not defending better than either of Jordan or Hakeem going 75% intensity. "eye test" None of us here are pro scouts, pro coaches, or pro GMs. We all can watch games and come to subjective conclusions but in the end it's just fan opinion. Plus I showed that the actual coaches in the league that year had Hakeem higher. Someone being bigger does not make them worse either. That is the nature of the game. The hoop is 10ft high. If someone is taller + longer reach and it helps them be better, they are still better. The scoreboard does not care if a smaller person tried harder on defense. I am not saying end all be all but it is a far better argument than fan opinion eye test or media member voting. I would be open to data that refutes what I listed, or PRO: coach, GM, scout film analysis that refutes it sure.
@@BulletBill-yb3ti But you are claiming that the numbers are proof that Hakeem should've won the DPY, I'm saying well you have an good argument but there are other ways to look at it.
Slight thing Wilt career average 30.1 Againist Russel 29.9 on 49% Not very much of a difference I would give wilt dpoy from his first 3 seasons as young wilt was violating the rim attackers and boards
Here's another trend. The MVP doesn't win the DPOY. Often times even being a top 5 players seems like it almost disqualifies you for DPOY. Like the DPOY if the year is like a sopnto those poor under paid shlubs who actually play defense. It really seems sometimes like thats how the best defensive players are treated. MVP and DPOY should actually overlap. Relatively often. Because defense is HALF THE GANE. Certainly not treated that way though... We should see more MVP level DPOY. Like Jordan or Hakeem.
MJ, Kobe, LeBron... I dont think any of them should be in the top ten for defense or ever really be in the race for DPoY. Even putting them on so many NBA defensive teams was a stretch. Fact is all theee if these guys was capable of being the best defender on the floor and it happened all the time. In short burts. Because players like them just expend FAR too much energy on offense to be the best defender as well. Defense comes down so much to energy and effort. Ive seen all of them be the best defender on the floor but on a full game basis, usually, youre jusy as likely to have some fifth starter or guy off the bench looking just as good if not better on defense because they have the legs to do it and they don't have to save themselves for late game crunch time offense. I just dont think being THE guy on offense the level those three had to be is conducive to also being the best guy on defense consistently as well. I think those defensive accolades is part highlight peak defense and glaze. You just cant he MJ or Kobe and Rodman or Bowen at the same time... This is less true for big men but its a factor with them as well. Duncan did everything with such an economy of movement but a guy like Shaq... I mean Shaq had his best defensive and block and rebound years in his first two years in the league. The more the offensive onus was on him the fewer blocks he got, The fewer rebounds, he played less great defense.
On my opinion Olajuwon was the best defender of all time and not bill Russell because he played with smaller players and also Wilt Chamberlain maybe has more blocks than Russell
Great video, but that top 10 at the end not including MJ is egregious at best, blasphemy at worst. I’m not sure why Robertson’s season is put over MJ’s season. Here’s the facts: Alvin: 6.3 rbg 3.7 spg 0.5 bpg 3.6 PF/G MJ: 5.5 rbg 3.2 spg 1.6 bpg 3.3 PF/G Roberson was: -4th on his team in rbg -1st on his team in spg -4th on his team in bpg -2nd on his team in PF/g MJ was: -3rd on his team in rbg -1st on his team in spg -1st on his team in bpg -T-1st on his in team in PF/g Even if we reduce MJ’s spg by 1 (which I’m going to assume the said could be said about every player in the 80’s - 90’s), he still would’ve led his team in steals. Furthermore, per the video produced examining that ‘87-88 season, his block numbers are more than likely lower than what he was given credit for. Now, from an analytic standpoint: Robertson had a 4.6 DWS MJ had a 6.1 DWS U couple that with the fact MJ led the league in scoring, won MVP, & had a total win share of 21.2 over Robertson’s 8.6, & I’m just not sure how his 87-88 season isn’t over Robertson’s 85-86 season.
I hate voter's fatigue stuffs. Those voters ruin history. For me these men are the real best defenders of all time. Rodman Olajuwon Dray Green Ben Wallace James Garnett These men can guard perimeter and downlow. Not like other winners who are liability in the perimeter or the post.
You can't give Bill Russell DPOTY 10 years straight. Voter Fatigue is a very real thing. Nobody actually thinks that Marcus Smart was a better defender than Giannis in 2022 but Giannis had just won Back 2 Back MVP's and DPOTY in 2021 voter fatigue set in hard and they gifted the award to Marcus Smart.
yet you are forgetting that the PLAYERS voted on these awards back in Russell’s day. voter fatigue is just a media thing. and the whole point of the video is to give the award to the best defender regardless of how many times they won it.
I’m sorry Jonny. I normally agree with your takes but Anthony Davis should have at least 3 defensive players of the year. He’s a way better defender than Gobert since he can defend the perimeter as well. Should’ve won in 2020 leading the #1 defense. He is for sure one of the top 5 defenders ever
You gave a lot ofnthese to Boddy Jones. If Walton is out because he only played 58 games then Bobby Jones should be faulted for only playing 25 minutes a game...
Your disrespect of Kareem Abdul Jabbar is noted. He a a manace on defense first half of his career. Yet you slight him way too many seasons that he should of won but you don't hesistate to give it to Bill Russell 10 years straight. Interstingly you screwed him out of the award every season he played with the Bucks despite those being his very best seasons.
You are way to inconsistant on what qualifierers you use to grant the award to a player. You knock and steal away 2 DPOTY from Sidney Moncrief because he's on a much better team than Tree Rollins who played good defense on a bad team yet in mid 90's switch and give the award to Scottie Pippen because he was on the better team. You just make up the rules as you go to give the award to whatever player you liked best. Which ironically steals away 4 or more DPOTY away from Bucks players. Kareem should of won at least 2 DPOTY's while playing for the Bucks and Sidney Moncrief is considered the best defensive guard of all time. Taking either award from him much less BOTH is absurd and I can't take you seriously.
He's definitely been in the conversation... That's just a fact. I don't know... When he turns it on he can play that center field or rover role or whatever you want to call it better than anyone and can really get all over the court causing havoc. And he's a pretty good on ball defender. And no one is pushing him around or backing him down. He's as strong as anyone. He pretty good... Doesn't always focus on defense but he spends a lot of energy on offense doing everything... But hes not top or anywhere near it... Imo
LeBron was top six in DPOY voting six times in his career. He was a phenomenal defender for most of his career, and an all-time great defender from 2009-2014. He was arguably the most versatile defender in the history of the league during his MVP seasons in Miami. His defensive abilities have lessened as he continues to age, but to say he's good-to-mediocre at best objectively is not true.
**TIMESTAMPS BELOW*** A MASSIVE compilation of my DPOY focused videos.
What’s the biggest DPOY snub you’ve ever seen?
Introduction to the series 0:17
If DPOYs Were Given to the BEST Defender (60s) 1:49 BRAND NEW
If DPOYs Were Given to the BEST Defender (70s-2019) 8:06
If DPOYs Were Given to the BEST Defender (2020s) 1:05:50 BRAND NEW
Top 10 DPOY Seasons of All Time 1:12:14
Top 10 NON-DPOY Seasons of All Time 1:22:44
Top 10 Defenders of All Time 1:32:02
@jonnyarnett Hi Jonny, greetings from Ireland! Huge fan of your content! Regarding your recent breakdown of Jordan's DPOY steals and blocks, you concluded at the end of that video that MJ's blocks were actually UNDER credited but you believe his steals were inflated. Since the release of that video, countless people in your comment section have noted that your conclusion that the steals were inflated, simply does not explain the obvious surplus/deficit correlation between the steals and blocks that you tracked in those 10 games. Additionally, many of your viewers have also pointed to the fact that steals were interpreted differently in that Era, rendering your assessment of MJ's steals using today's rules, inapplicable. I note that you have since acknowledged these observations in your comment section and vowed to release a follow up video. I'm wondering when you plan on releasing this follow up video? My apologies in advance if my comment is a little lengthy but there are several important factors omitted from your original analysis that I'm hoping you will address...
The footage from your analysis of those 10 games revealed 15 occasions where Jordan got his hand on the opponent's ball, disrupting the offense and causing a deflection, you assessed these deflections as 15 'possible blocks' but noted that the Statistician did NOT credit these 15 blocks to MJ's official block count. That's a crucial discovery, and incidentally, one that Haberstroh completely failed to mention in his article, despite claiming to have analysed 6 of those games. Here is an important question that has not yet been answered... If that Statistician in 1987/88 was purposely inflating Jordan's defensive stats, why would he UNDER credit Jordan's blocks? If his goal truly was to inflate Jordan's defensive stats, there is no question that he would have credited every single one of those 15 'possible blocks' to MJ's block count...but he didn't. However, despite this surplus of blocks, you still conclude at the end of the video that the steals were intentionally inflated! I'm sorry Jonny but I don't understand how you didn't connect the dots here because it's obvious to any rational person that there was no 'gifting' of steals, the Statistician clearly assessed those 15 'possible blocks' as steals and credited them to MJ's steal count. It's the most logical explanation for Jordan's block count being UNDER credited.
The question is, was the Stat-keeper correct in categorising those 15 deflections as steals...should they have been labelled as blocks? In order to answer that question, more detailed research needs to be conducted into the rules of that Era and how blocks and steals were consistently interpreted at that time. I watched an old 1992 Bulls regular season game last week and noticed that on 2 separate occasions Jordan got his hand on the opponent's ball in the passing lane, deflecting the ball to two of his teammates and the commentator announced 'another steal for MJ ' on both occasions, indicating that steals were credited to the player causing the deflection, which is not consistent with how you analysed MJ's steals during your original breakdown. Also, something else that wasn't accounted for in your video is the fact that the Statisticians in the 80's didn't have the luxury of relying on instant replay or multiple camera angles, they had to make an assessment in real time, from the sidelines, so it's highly plausible that, from the vantage point of the Statistician, an occasional block may have been mistakenly interpreted as a steal. Either way, logic dictates Jordan's steals were not 'gifted' in those 10 games, the Statistician clearly placed those 15 'possible blocks' in the steals column.
Finally, it's important to note, even if you are correct Jonny and your research into the rules of that Era proves that those 15 deflections should have been assessed as blocks and not steals, that would amount to stat misplacement, NOT stat inflation. There's a very important distinction there. In such case, Jordan's official steals count for those 10 games would indeed need to be reduced by 15, however, his official block count would then need to be INCREASED by 15. So no matter which way you slice it, whether those 15 deflections are placed in the steals column or in the blocks column, it wouldn't change Jordan's overall defensive stats in those 10 games because you would essentially be subtracting 15 from one defensive column and adding 15 to another defensive column, which of course would have zero impact on the validity of MJ's DPOY award. Just to reiterate, I think you did a great job overall on this topic, it's clear how much effort and hard work you put into it but a closer look at those steals is 100% warranted. It just doesn't make sense that a Stat-keeper intent on inflating Jordan's defensive stats would UNDER credit his blocks by 15 over the course of 10 games.
Gerald Wallace
imo by far the most comprehensive and one of the most objective bball ytubers for all things NBA (especially NBA history)
Means a lot!! Thanks for always showing up and supporting the channel, because I wouldn’t be uploading if people like you weren’t showing up 👍🫡
not a doubt! 🎉
Straight up, that's real.
100% agree the best basketball channel
Nothing against the content or the creator, but the var isn't very high for sports content overall. Far too many posters are severely ignorant of history and context. There also exists a severe confirmation bias among youtubers. Regardless, Johnny puts in a lot of effort to mitigate all but his massive Kobe bias. Lol
Imagine Bill Russell with not only 11 rings but also 11 DPOYS. I think a lot more people would put him up there in the GOAT conversations.
If they are not casuals and understand the game's history they would do that now anyway.
Their *
My thoughts exactly. RIP
@@EA-dweller, I highly recommend you take at least one more remedial/elementary English course before your next attempt to 'correct' anyone else.
it doesn’t change the fact that it’s hard to compare players from that era to current. 8 teams, barely any film, different style of play
it’s stuff like this that separates the greats from the elite. Mr. Arnett….you sir are ELITE. keep up the great work.
Thanks man!! I really appreciate you always showing up and supporting the channel for all these years :)
I agree
I just want to say thank you Johnny because I definitely asked you to do the 60s and you did it within a month much appreciation to you, bro and the work you put in I literally increased my knowledge double since watching your channel and have unique appreciation for the old school basketball that was forgotten
Wasn’t expecting a Deep Cut damnnnnnn. Much appreciation
If DPOY's existed and blocks were counted with the steals, the GOAT debate would be very different today. Wilt's and Bill's numbers were crazy.
I absolutely agree and the fact of the matter is today’s analyst or UA-camrs aside from Johnny literally use the time they played in, and then not having the stats recorded to diminish their legacy. Or the time that they played in which all of it is completely unfair to do to them. Another thing I feel they had to stop having Bill or Will be the goat because some of the accomplishments and accolades that they have done will never be able to be repeated. Winning 11 titles will never happen again. Winning 8 titles in a row will never happen again being a coach and a player at the same time will never happen again scoring 100 points in the game realistically probably isn’t happening ever again and averaging 50 and 25 will never happen again. And use the time they played into these kind of accolades. LeBron fans that logic against them saying that the 90s was trash. The truth is as time progresses. Every sport gets better and better. In terms of skill. And wisdom. The real truth of the matter is no player has control over the time that they were born and the time that they have when they are alive all you can do is use the time that was given to you and the time that was given to those two gentlemen they easily deserved to be called the goats of basketball. I almost consider them because their stats were not able to be recorded so many things they done will never be achieved again.
Like no players is ever going to win 11 titles again and if titles are the representation of who the goat is, then Bill would be the goat and no one’s ever getting there so it would ruin a lot of the debating for being the goat and stuff of that nature and my opinion, they had to change because Bill’s accolades were just too much Wilt Chamberlain were too much to accomplish again and so will diminish them so that we can go debate for players that are coming in presently and this is rinse and repeat all the way up until now.
@sablecal none of those things matter because the era they played in nobody was shooting good they played, and they high shooting era , which has more shot attempts than this era. That don’t diminish the fact that 11 titles is better than six by far and it ain’t even close and he coached his team to two titles while being a player and a coach at the same time not having Phil Jackson to run to the bench and save your role players.. on top of that they didn’t even record the stats that they were dominating in. 18 titles in a row more titles than Jordan has on his fingers within nine seasons. Don’t nobody control the time they played in. All they can do is make do with the time that they do have and nobody accomplished more than Bill Russell with 11 rings and two of them being a coach and a player at the same time. And defeating the first team juggernaut ever created by trades. And he did it as the eighth seed. Which was equivalent to the fourth seed of that time. Anyone trying to talk about efficiency and shit like that. Kobe Bryant has bad efficiency compared to Jordan, but played in our way harder defensive era than Jordan did. All the rules changed to stop iso basketball and to prevent players from being like Michael Jordan and Kobe was able to replicate it or do even better in terms of visuals because his defense is clearly shown that it’s better than any basketball era ever. LeBron plays in, arguably the softest era ever right now. Every single era is going to have something that can be picked apart on it and be able to use to diminish a players legacy and the same goals vice versa for upgrading their legacy. All that matters is how much you fucking win and how much are you? The reason that your team is winning that’s what determines who the goat is. And what you do off the court because you are a role model. And Michael Jordan into prison so his people get locked up in there just so he can dodge some taxes. Bill Russell was his racist ass people after winning multiple championships for them people broke into his house left manure all over his house repeated death threats. He’s the first player to boycott a game so people don’t join the game out of the disrespect that they were receiving. Civil rights for people who was getting absolutely oppressed. Like how is this even a debate to me It’s not even close.
@sablecal Bill Russell was like the leading center and assist for damn near 3040 years because of his unselfish play. All of those guys got to get all of the shot attempts and the offensive stats that they have on their team because they wouldn’t got that if they got to play with wilt. Russell’s approach to the game is why his team success happened as many times as it did. The Celtics never let the league in offense while with bill they won off defense, and Bill is the best defender of that time. And you playing lesser teams means you have to meet your opponent like Wilt, Chamberlain, Nate Thurman, Walt Bellamy. And others 10 times before you even made the playoffs. So that argument is not a proper case to put against him. He won while they were in their prime and he won while they were old and out of their prime and he was the coach when they were out of their prime and I’m talking about the Celtics as a whole. And he still won at that time, actually repeated being a coach and something Jordan could never even dream of doing. He accomplished more as a coach than some coaches do in their entire life and he did it in two years. Bill is the goat. His style of basketball leads to the most success leads to his teammates, playing at their best more than any basketball player, and the only argument you could argue is maybe Magic Johnson. That’s the guy who has an argument at his players actually playing and being unselfish and getting everyone involved and making sure everyone touches the ball. Wil, Chamberlain and Bill Russell averaging 20 possessions. They gave their team 20 possessions a game. Bill Russell had a 30 points and 40 rebounds in game to close out a game seven. He gave his team 40 possessions. To have opportunities to even score the basketball. if you’re going to try and hold the error against Bill, then you can do the same against Michael Jordan because the 90s was ass as well. And plenty of people are proving it now on UA-cam. Michael Jordan lost to a CEO of whatever company. During Michael Jordan summer camp. He lost to 6 foot two maybe shorter guy who doesn’t play professional basketball. And you can tell very clearly. He beat Michael Jordan one on one. After Michael Jordan was talking shit. Jordan Fans say Jordan would lock curry up lmao And 20 years from now they’re going to use that very same argument against LeBron in this area up that was 20 years ago. We’re way better at basketball now than you guys were then so that argument is just a pathetic attempt at trying to make your era greater than another. All that matters is what you did during the time you had. Bill Russell accomplished more winning than any other basketball player has done in their entire career. In fact, he did it within nine years he had more rings than every basketball player in NBA history. He could’ve retired then and he’d be the goat. He had to go on and win two more championships as a coach And a player.
@sablecal Bill in all of his series that led to seven games he averages 19 points and 22 rebounds and some of those series they got up to 24 points and 25 rebounds don’t talk to me about scoring he didn’t need to score. He made his teammates better by being a team player. Your whole argument isn’t saying much. It doesn’t stop the fact that he’s the greatest defensive player of all time defense wins championships as shown in every sport. It is the epitome of success and he is the greatest basketball player ever accomplished the greatest achievements ever. You keep talking about scoring as scoring was what was winning championships Michael Jordan was the scorer Kobe was a was a scorer you combine both those guys careers and they only add up to 11 championships lmao Kobe’s my favorite basketball player by . Do you know what the narrative was behind those guys that you can’t win that style Wilt was doing 50 a night and he still couldn’t win with that style consistently. Bills style of game is greater than an individual player trying to dominate Bill Russell understood this and his team was the most successful team in history. You clearly don’t understand this because you’re trying to bring up stats to a guy who plays on the side of a court that stats can’t even equate or tell the whole story of defense stats. Stats surface level so much more than that and he would have probably seven finals MVPs up to 10 and he would probably have up to 10 defensive player of the year awards which is greater than any achievement Michael Jordan would have. You’re doing everything you can to try a man who has five more titles than the so-called goat. he would have more finals MVPs than Jordan has rings held the award finals. FMVP is called the Bill Russell award because it’s named after the greatest player of all time and that sport is the greatest award you can have in the sport.
After learning more about Bill Russell through your videos I have to say he is honestly underrate. I couldn’t consider not having him in the top 10 like some do nowadays. He and wilts legacies are hurt by a lack of awards and defensive stats available in that era. Incredibly clutch too, never lost a game 7, especially in the 1969 nba finals as a player coach, “those f*cking balloons are staying up there”, that was like something out of a movie, killer instinct.
no bs Mark Eaton was my great uncle in law he was actually an incredible dude massive too but i got the chance to talk to him for a solid 30 mins one thanksgiving when he paid for the entire family to come out to St George Utah and eat at an incredible private golf club we talked about playing against MJ and playing with Stockton and Malone its an experience ill never forget so sad to hear he passed away a few years ago when he had a heart attack on his motorcycle. One of the coolest things he did for me knowing im a huge Notre Dame fan was get my father and I signed Notre Dame footballs by the real Rudy Ruttiger and Sean Astin. Fly High Mark 🕊️
Nice
Nice
Great story ! Thanks for sharing this with us :)
The year before Russell was drafted, the Celtics were 6/8 in defensive rating. The year after he retired, the Celtics were 8/14 in def rating. While he was playing, the Celtics had the best defense 12/13 years with one 2nd best defense. You really cant overstate his defensive impact.
Bill Russell is the greatest defender of all-time and he deserves all those Defensive Player of the Year awards.
Another great video Bro
Your analysis is as always on point
ngl… not much of a commenter.. however you guy. when it comes to historicals.. you got it. Period. Ive been a long time subscriber. Keep it up! and road to 250k!
I was waiting for this video
I will show my kids this
Appreciate it 👍🏿
Holy cow. I did not expect this! Did I really wake up on Christmas or something??!?!?
Imagine If DPOYs And FMVPs Was A Thing Back Then !! Bill Russell 11x Champ 10 Or 11x FMVP, 5x MVP And 11x DPOY Along With Multiple Steal And Block Titles.... Whew!
There is a big difference with most MJ fans criticizing Lebron, and most Lebron fans criticizing MJ. Mj fans are alive to see both play. Most Lebron fans never saw MJ other than highlights.
In fact a lot of Lebron fans don't even watch Lebron, they watch highlights and listen to Dick Wright type of media.
I particularly know Lebron fans that actually don't watch basketball at all. They are just fans of the person they think is the current best. This is why its ridiculous to even argue with them.
thats partially true, many older mj and other fans just go on about how they cant watch basketball and they havent since like 2014 because they dont like it
sad world enjoying players over enjoying the sport
Just wanted to use the chance to comment a bit about Big Ben.
I agree that Wallace can't go much higher than what Jonny has him in the different lists here (especially the top defenders) because of longevity, but if you happened to be watching bball in the 00s, then you know how absurdly good was that man during his peak.
He was the best rebounder in the league while competing with guys like Shaq, Duncan, KG, Yao, etc. He was a top 2 shot blocker at least (anybody remember Theo Ratliff? Anyone? No?) and very good at stealing the ball for a center.
He would lock down your best interior player, but he would also lock a perimeter player because he also happened to have great perimeter defense.
He was also a king of hustle and the kind of guy who made others play better defense with his own defense.
He was an absolute monster in defense. Enough to make All-Stars and the like while being.... lets just say not great at the offensive end.
I think he's the one guy with 4 DPOYs that really never had that many detractors about them (I know Mutombo, Howard and Gobert sure have them)... and even had some people being like "well, yeah, but they probably should've been 5" because of '04.
What a run for an undrafted player.
I saw Ratliff at the Pprtland airport when He was a Blazer.
Awesome compilation again Jonny! You're always the first video I click in my feed. How is it going with the NBA 2K simulation of all your Ultimate Teams btw? Really looking forward to that one!
that's a great video that you just posted up there and knowledge for the younger kids generation like Ant-Man who doesn't know more about the league and its greats from the past . I also like how u point out the runners-up in every seasonpoint out there impactson there respect teams.. keep up the great work
If anything Marc Gasol was snubbed from the All NBA Defensive Team. Marc had the most impact on BOTH offense and defense in the best defense of the league, even more than Tony Allen.
His super high-IQ was immortalized in that Raptors run to the title. Made their life so much easier against Philly and Milwaukee.
Great list Johnny, like the respect to Bobby Jones, I remember seeing old NBA entertainment VHS tapes with all those highlights and I'd be like who's that guy!? LBJ I dont think gets one his gaurding different positions is over hyped IMO, he gauded big men less than 2% of the time in a league where the big man wasn't the same as it once was the game started moving away from the post and out to the paint.
Wow great, I was hoping this goes as deep in time as this
I knew it
The Wemby case lead you to this video
Well done
I’m looking forward to seeing your all time ranking of the best two way players
Fantastic video
Wake up babe, Jonny Arnett posted another 1 hour video
Even though it would probably be a little difficult in terms of research. You should try to do 1946-1956
"So what did you decide to name your son?"
"Tree."
"Yeah thats a tree... But what did you name your son?"
Eaton was eatin, defensively, that year he lost, what the hell.
Very good list 👍
Anybody who doesn't have Bill Russell in the convo for GOAT is insane
Not really because you got 5 guys who are generally considered without a doubt better, so it makes sense people would not have him in GOAT talks
@@baseupp12 agree to disagree
That's because the ones who would have him as that are most likely no longer living with us
Jonny, a Finals MVP video similar to this style would be awesome 👍
In the comment about the 70-ies edition, I said that I would be waiting for a video about the 60-ies NBA where you would give Bill Russell 9 straight DPOYs. Looks like I was not generous enough 😶
Right on all counts.
34:55
How many steps was that? Lol. 5? 4 1/2?
I'm so glad you agree with me Gobert didn't deserve his first and most recent DPOY awards.
Bobby Jones is the most underrated defender/defensive player ever. he didn’t even make your honorable mentions for the best defenders and he’s got more first all defense selections than everyone else (i’m including his ABA stats).
I lost the ball just thinking about Bill Russel being DPOY for 10 years straight and then again after a year.
I'm saying this as a die-hard knicks fan, but in 1971 Nate Thurmond definitely deserves the award. Surprised Nate didn't snag at least one...but he did play at the same time as Bill Russell...
Also despite the shorter seasons Bill Walton has got to snag at least one DPOY
A few notes to take away:
Bill Russel is a legitimate Goat candidate
The 70s Knicks were stacked prob a super team
Hakeem is arguably the greatest defender but didn’t get robbed in 88
I’m glad you gave Wemby consideration. He’s my choice for instincts quickness and intimidation. Teams wouldn’t put the ball on the side of the court Victor was on
This is a topic we need to talk about more. The year Marcus smart got it. As a bucks fan I was LIVID jrue holiday wasn’t even being talked about. But that’s the bias large market teams get. Some mid defender can win awards over a player that completely outshined him. Now jrue is getting that respect finally because he joined that team
I would like to get the stats of number of blocks in which the blocker keeps the Ball...Watching Victor at that last year was amazing, it seems to do that at least 2 times per game that year. Dwight Howard seems to me to have done that about 3 times in 15 seasons or so in comparison
Tim Duncan was also amazing at that. I think those just count as a block and a rebound, so it is reflected in their rebound numbers.
I always facepalm when a guy swats a ball into the stands, yells, and beats his chest. Then the opposing team just inbounds the ball again... like, awesome job, but how about take possession instead of show us how hard you can hit something?
@j-rey- Exactly, I guess it's sadly not part of what they call "basketball IQ...
You should do this same videos but with finals MVPS Please
Have a great afternoon!👋👋👋
I feel like Hakeem had a legendary work ethic that nobody talks about.
It's shocking to think how many legends were robbed of DPOY just because of team performance!
I would respectfully put Ben Wallace DPOY season as the peak DPOY ever. That impact defensively is just insane whether eye test or advance metrics.
Was your top 10 defenders video made before you learned about Bobby Jones? Just seems funny to see him get several hypothetical DPOYs but not even be an honorable mention on that list haha
Not gonna disagree but how about we get a who should've been DPOY and MVP for the era before Bill Russell would be intersting to see if this is even possible
I disagree with some but overall great list
u should make a new series giving out your awards before the actual awards are released
The only thing I would change is Chamberlain having couple more DPOYs over Russell during the 60s. Russell deserves most of them but Chamberlain I think had couple noteworthy seasons
I think Thurmond deserves at least one as well
U should do a ofensive player of the year series
I need that jordan, wilt, curry and luka prop
I’m going to watch this later tdy. 😝
class video
The season Pippen became Jordan , he couldn't win because he had no Pippen to compliment him 😅
You guys take shit outta context just so ya can downgrade Jordan because ya know Jordan better than Bron.
@@Like-oe1cy i didnt know bron was magically in his sentence
Lbj DPOY does not make sense only to prevent your choice of keeping Marc Gasol
The Lbj case can not overcome Tony Allen who’s consistent enough to get one specially over LeBron
How does one go about judging performances from eras long before they were born?
In 89-90 season Rockets went 41-41 and the Pistons went 59-23. Probably was the reason Rodman won DPOY that year over Dream.
I wonder if he's giving this most recent one to wemby
Its interesting that you ranked David Robinsons DPOY 5th of all time and also mentioned if he would have played more games he would be in the top 3 even compete the first, while you think in that season Dennis Rodman more deserved that award. My question ist that if the award really goes to Rodman than he would be ranked on the all time list so high as the Admiral too, so Rodman would have 2 spot in the all time top 5 list?
The tragedy here in this video is that Patrick Ewing has not been even mentioned. Lead the league in 1993-1995 in defensive win shares defensive rating and team defensive rating. Even out-defended Hakeem in the nba finals. Advanced stats were not generally used back then, but Johnny has all the means to look at it now. Ewing was simple stubbed!
🥳💛
1991-1992 Robinson deserves it🧠
I don’t understand why Bill Russell’s defense is being underrated in some spaces. I’ve seen somebody say Bill isn’t a top 5 defender and people were agreeing with no basis to that claim
Bill Russell should win every year he played
Wemby might do something close to that
Are u gonna update ur username or pfp?
Happy Wednesday!!!!!!!’
Ben Wallace should have won the Dpoy 5 times. Their was no reason for Artest winning that award in 04. I disagree with Jonny, Bruce Bowen was a great defender, but Ben Wallace was far more Superior that year regular season end playoff defensively.
I think that Jonny would agree with you. Trouble is, DPOY is a purely regular season award, so he can't factor in Wallace's excellent playoff performance.
I still think Dennis Johnson should have won at least one in the 80s, and if it existed in the 70s, also then as well. He aas shutting down players like Alex English, George Gervin and michael Jordan
Difficult to have a top 10 year without Bill Russell
🏀
BOWENS SUCCESS THAT SEASON VS KOBE ..YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE FACT THAT KOBE GUARDED AND WAS SHUTTING DOWN GINOBLI AND PARKER IN THOSE GAMES..KOBE ALWAYS GUARDED THE OPPOSING TEAMS BEST SCORERS FROM THE 1 AND 2 AND SOMETIMES THE 3!!! POSITION... PLAYING GREAT DEFENSE HIMSELF WHILE BEING GUARDED BY THE OPPOSING TEAMS BEST DEFENDER WAS A TALL TASK THAT KOBE DONE MASTERFULLY FOR A LITTLE OVER A DECADE!!!!!
What's up Jonny since we talking about defense I want to give you my top three all defensive teams
1st team
Forwards Bobby Jones Dennis Tim Duncan
Center Bill Russell
Guards Michael Jordan and The glove Gary Payton
2nd team Forwards Dennis Rodman and Scottie Pippen Center Hakeem Olajuwon Guards Michael Cooper and Kobe Bryant 3rd team Forwards Kevin Garnett and Bruce Bowen Center Wilt Chamberlain Guards Alvin Robertson and Chris Paul
next defensive video, why jokic has better advanced defensive numbers than kobe bryant
Hakeem 1988 rightful DPOY.
The DPOY vote is what is in question so using the DPOY votes here is invalid. The below aims to uncover who had more valid backing to be named DPOY in 1988.
HAKEEM
Steals per game: 2.1
Blocks per game: 2.7
Defensive Rebounds per game: 8.3
Defensive Win shares: 6.3
Defensive BPM: 2.2
Defensive Rating: 98.0
All-Defensive Voting Shares: 0.587 (coaches not media voted on this)
JORDAN
Steals per game: 3.2
Blocks per game: 1.6
Defensive Rebounds per game: 3.8
Defensive Win shares: 6.1
Defensive BPM: 4.2
Defensive Rating: 101.5
All-Defensive Voting Shares: 0.522 (coaches not media voted on this)
COMPARISON
Steals per game: JORDAN +1.1
Blocks per game: HAKEEM +1.1
Defensive Rebounds per game: HAKEEM +4.5
Defensive Win shares: HAKEEM +0.2
Defensive BPM: JORDAN +2
Defensive Rating: HAKEEM +3.5 (lower is better on this)
All-Defensive Voting Shares: HAKEEM + 0.065 (coaches not media voted on this)
JORDAN TOTAL +s: 3.6
HAKEEM TOTAL +s: 9.4
HAKEEM +6.3 difference overall
1st in league:
Hakeem in DWS, DEF RATING, All-Defensive Voting Shares
1st in league:
Jordan in DEF BPM, and SPG
Hakeem 1st in 3 > Jordan 1st in 2
Hakeem’s rank in the “guard” stat of steals per game was higher than Jordan’s rank in the “center” stats of blocks per game.
Overall average rank in defensive measures:
Summary:
1. The overall defensive stat difference said Hakeem
2. the coaches said Hakeem
3. The more 1sts in the league defensive marks said Hakeem
4. The higher in the other’s supposed role of stat said Hakeem
5. The overall average defensive rank said Hakeem
vs
1. The media said Jordan
2. Jordan fanatics said and still say Jordan
There were 4 levels of statistical evidence and 1 level of coach opinion that favored Hakeem.
There was 1 level of media voter opinion and 1 level of fanatic opinion that favors Jordan.
• 5 statistical measures have more objective weight than 2 opinions
Opinions are subjective. However, some opinions are more logically valid than others:
• Opinion of those paid to strategize how players are used is logically more valid than the opinion of those who are paid for marketing and to get stories for TV programming.
• Opinion of those paid to strategize how players are used is logically more valid than the opinion of those who are emotionally biased for whoever they like or were programmed by marketing to like.
Most logical conclusion:
Hakeem for 1988 DPOY > Jordan for 88 DPOY.
*Possible Jordan fanatic ploys debunked:
“Jordan was higher in stats for guards than Hakeem was for centers”
This does not prove Jordan was higher defensively than Hakeem as a player of that year.
The award is Defensive player of the year.
It is not:
Defensive player vs only 1 position
defensive center of the year
defensive guard of the year
At the time a Guard having 200 steals, and 100 blocks was was historically significant, kinda like when Russell Westbrook won MVP because of the triple double. So you might be right but there are occasions where the story or the historical impact gets celebrated because it's not just about numbers, by the there's a lot of subjectivity in counting STATs. Hakeem got his, it'd be different had he never won anything but that ain't the case.
@@mjsup1 A guard not doing it before does not change that Hakeem overall graded higher in defensive measures. Jordan having an arbitrary cut off of 200 stl and 100 blk does not change the gaps in those measures between the 2 that I showed.
"by the there's a lot of subjectivity in counting STATs."
This is an easy cop put when the data does not favor the one you like more. I mean any award is subjective. What I showed was that if we went by statistical data Hakeem should have won. Anyone can say "well I feel like it should have been my guy."
I also broke down who had more objective backing and what is the more valid subjective.
@@BulletBill-yb3ti You broke it down well but you don't really understand how numbers are misleading sometimes, there are circumstances that can give a player advantages, and the Big Man always has those advantages as Johnny points out in his analysis. If you actually watch the games instead of looking at numbers you'd clearly see that the effort between the two was night and day and by just watching it looks as though Hakeem was a Great Defender no question but by the eye test Jordan was a demon on the defensive side, so the effort was rewarded, things like effort, heart, and determination aren't measured in STATs so even though you have good argument it not the end all beat all, it doesn't cover everything.
@@mjsup1 i did not claim those numbers cover every single action on the court though.
However, they cover a lot more objectively than just saying "I feel like Jordan tried harder and I don't like it when someone is bigger than him."
Effort and determination may make us feel good but those things do not = better defender. Muggsy Bogues can have the most heart, grit, aggression, intensity, effort ect that has ever been displayed on defense and he is not defending better than either of Jordan or Hakeem going 75% intensity.
"eye test"
None of us here are pro scouts, pro coaches, or pro GMs. We all can watch games and come to subjective conclusions but in the end it's just fan opinion. Plus I showed that the actual coaches in the league that year had Hakeem higher.
Someone being bigger does not make them worse either. That is the nature of the game. The hoop is 10ft high. If someone is taller + longer reach and it helps them be better, they are still better. The scoreboard does not care if a smaller person tried harder on defense.
I am not saying end all be all but it is a far better argument than fan opinion eye test or media member voting.
I would be open to data that refutes what I listed, or PRO: coach, GM, scout film analysis that refutes it sure.
@@BulletBill-yb3ti But you are claiming that the numbers are proof that Hakeem should've won the DPY, I'm saying well you have an good argument but there are other ways to look at it.
Slight thing
Wilt career average 30.1
Againist Russel 29.9 on 49%
Not very much of a difference
I would give wilt dpoy from his first 3 seasons as young wilt was violating the rim attackers and boards
LeBron was not worthy of any DPOY please
We must give credit to the Tony Allens of the world
10 years straight??? Nahh we need a breakdown bro lol 😂 no wayyyy but I believe you’re heavy on the research
😂😂Exactly. I know Bill would win a lot, but Wilt sound has at least 2 or 3 in the 60s
He mentioned that it wasn't that close.
Here's another trend. The MVP doesn't win the DPOY. Often times even being a top 5 players seems like it almost disqualifies you for DPOY. Like the DPOY if the year is like a sopnto those poor under paid shlubs who actually play defense. It really seems sometimes like thats how the best defensive players are treated. MVP and DPOY should actually overlap. Relatively often. Because defense is HALF THE GANE. Certainly not treated that way though...
We should see more MVP level DPOY. Like Jordan or Hakeem.
Sidney Moncrief deserved his 2
Rookie Bill Russell lost a chunk of time owing to his summer Olympics commitment in 1956....
Nobody has seen this entire vid yet
So then how do you think Wilt is better when Russ wuld have 11 rings and DPOYs?
MJ, Kobe, LeBron... I dont think any of them should be in the top ten for defense or ever really be in the race for DPoY. Even putting them on so many NBA defensive teams was a stretch. Fact is all theee if these guys was capable of being the best defender on the floor and it happened all the time. In short burts. Because players like them just expend FAR too much energy on offense to be the best defender as well. Defense comes down so much to energy and effort. Ive seen all of them be the best defender on the floor but on a full game basis, usually, youre jusy as likely to have some fifth starter or guy off the bench looking just as good if not better on defense because they have the legs to do it and they don't have to save themselves for late game crunch time offense. I just dont think being THE guy on offense the level those three had to be is conducive to also being the best guy on defense consistently as well. I think those defensive accolades is part highlight peak defense and glaze. You just cant he MJ or Kobe and Rodman or Bowen at the same time...
This is less true for big men but its a factor with them as well. Duncan did everything with such an economy of movement but a guy like Shaq... I mean Shaq had his best defensive and block and rebound years in his first two years in the league. The more the offensive onus was on him the fewer blocks he got, The fewer rebounds, he played less great defense.
🙌👋👍
On my opinion Olajuwon was the best defender of all time and not bill Russell because he played with smaller players and also Wilt Chamberlain maybe has more blocks than Russell
🍄
How can Lebron not be on this list?
He is on the list. He should've won the 2011-2012 DPOY.
Great video, but that top 10 at the end not including MJ is egregious at best, blasphemy at worst.
I’m not sure why Robertson’s season is put over MJ’s season. Here’s the facts:
Alvin: 6.3 rbg 3.7 spg 0.5 bpg 3.6 PF/G
MJ: 5.5 rbg 3.2 spg 1.6 bpg 3.3 PF/G
Roberson was:
-4th on his team in rbg
-1st on his team in spg
-4th on his team in bpg
-2nd on his team in PF/g
MJ was:
-3rd on his team in rbg
-1st on his team in spg
-1st on his team in bpg
-T-1st on his in team in PF/g
Even if we reduce MJ’s spg by 1 (which I’m going to assume the said could be said about every player in the 80’s - 90’s), he still would’ve led his team in steals. Furthermore, per the video produced examining that ‘87-88 season, his block numbers are more than likely lower than what he was given credit for.
Now, from an analytic standpoint:
Robertson had a 4.6 DWS
MJ had a 6.1 DWS
U couple that with the fact MJ led the league in scoring, won MVP, & had a total win share of 21.2 over Robertson’s 8.6, & I’m just not sure how his 87-88 season isn’t over Robertson’s 85-86 season.
How The 🐐 6-0 a fraud when he doesn't keep the stats 🤔
I hate voter's fatigue stuffs.
Those voters ruin history.
For me these men are the real best defenders of all time.
Rodman
Olajuwon
Dray Green
Ben Wallace
James
Garnett
These men can guard perimeter and downlow.
Not like other winners who are liability in the perimeter or the post.
You can't give Bill Russell DPOTY 10 years straight. Voter Fatigue is a very real thing. Nobody actually thinks that Marcus Smart was a better defender than Giannis in 2022 but Giannis had just won Back 2 Back MVP's and DPOTY in 2021 voter fatigue set in hard and they gifted the award to Marcus Smart.
yet you are forgetting that the PLAYERS voted on these awards back in Russell’s day. voter fatigue is just a media thing. and the whole point of the video is to give the award to the best defender regardless of how many times they won it.
I’m sorry Jonny. I normally agree with your takes but Anthony Davis should have at least 3 defensive players of the year. He’s a way better defender than Gobert since he can defend the perimeter as well. Should’ve won in 2020 leading the #1 defense. He is for sure one of the top 5 defenders ever
57:35 your a sad goofy!!!! Marc Gasol wasn’t even the best defender on his team 🙄
Bron ain’t deserve DPOY , if anything gasol deserved 1st team
Gasol didn't even deserve 2nd team lol dude made 2nd team on a technicality.
@@rogelioatempa1115 still won DPOY 🥱
@@andresdelportillo9917 but shouldn't have.
@@rogelioatempa1115 the nba disagrees with you
@@andresdelportillo9917and the nba disagrees with you on him deserving 1st team 🥱
You gave a lot ofnthese to Boddy Jones. If Walton is out because he only played 58 games then Bobby Jones should be faulted for only playing 25 minutes a game...
Your disrespect of Kareem Abdul Jabbar is noted. He a a manace on defense first half of his career. Yet you slight him way too many seasons that he should of won but you don't hesistate to give it to Bill Russell 10 years straight. Interstingly you screwed him out of the award every season he played with the Bucks despite those being his very best seasons.
You are way to inconsistant on what qualifierers you use to grant the award to a player. You knock and steal away 2 DPOTY from Sidney Moncrief because he's on a much better team than Tree Rollins who played good defense on a bad team yet in mid 90's switch and give the award to Scottie Pippen because he was on the better team. You just make up the rules as you go to give the award to whatever player you liked best. Which ironically steals away 4 or more DPOTY away from Bucks players. Kareem should of won at least 2 DPOTY's while playing for the Bucks and Sidney Moncrief is considered the best defensive guard of all time. Taking either award from him much less BOTH is absurd and I can't take you seriously.
I agree with u but sidney moncrief is not considered the best defensive guard of all time
LeBron never deserved or was in the conversation for DPOY. He's good to mediocre at best defensively
He's definitely been in the conversation... That's just a fact. I don't know... When he turns it on he can play that center field or rover role or whatever you want to call it better than anyone and can really get all over the court causing havoc. And he's a pretty good on ball defender. And no one is pushing him around or backing him down. He's as strong as anyone. He pretty good... Doesn't always focus on defense but he spends a lot of energy on offense doing everything... But hes not top or anywhere near it... Imo
LeBron was top six in DPOY voting six times in his career. He was a phenomenal defender for most of his career, and an all-time great defender from 2009-2014. He was arguably the most versatile defender in the history of the league during his MVP seasons in Miami. His defensive abilities have lessened as he continues to age, but to say he's good-to-mediocre at best objectively is not true.