The EPROM eraser uses shortwave UV light that is almost completely blocked by ordinary glass. That's why the EPROMs have quartz windows. A blacklight style longwave UV lamp may work better. Have you tried acetone nail varnish remover to clean the residual glue off?
+CNLohr maybe the apliedscience's evaporative method would work? It's fast so I'm thinking maybe it would not have the time to get under the copper traces.
I really need to make more glass PCBs some time. There's so many things I want to try and new ideas so many people have had.. Right now, I'm so busy with other stuff.
I tried using an EPROM eraser to cheat making photo-resist pcb's in the 1980's - It took forever but eventually worked. The problem is that the wavelength of the UV light is wrong. It's like the difference between UV-A and UV-B.
Dude this is fucking awesome, I am a mechanical engineering student but I'm learning so much about electronics manufacturing from people like you and other open-source projects. Thanks a lot!
8 років тому+1
+H5ck Well, I am a student of electrical engineering and I learnt everything from UA-cam videos and Wikipedia. Thanks, school!
If you're doing regular circuit boards, the laminator (note this is a modified GBC H-220) is spectacular. You can usually get everything to stick really well in 2-3 times through. No ironing needed.
Your etching solution is actually etching the glass giving it a frosted look. If you use pyrex or borosilicate glass slides you will not have this problem. You will have totally clear boards! The glass you are using must be a "soft" glass which has a COE (Coefficient of Expansion) of around 130, Pyrex or Boro glass has a COE of around 30. The low COE also makes it far less susceptible to thermal shock. Clear and no cracks! Win! Also this is one of the coolest things I've ever seen!
Wow, this is really ambitious and a very cool idea. We have expensive Liquid Flow Meters that just use a plate of glass over some heat detecting LEDs to act as simple push buttons but yet have the circuit isolated from the externals. This...could be very handy...great job by the way!
This is so incredibly cool! I can think of so many "just for looks" applications for this to make some really cool, and actually functional, stuff. Thank you for sharing this.
I doubt the slide has a UV coating - it's just that glass is not very transparent at the short wavelength used in UV erasers (253nm) Eprom windows and eraser tubes are made of quartz for this reason. It may also be the case that the glue is not very res[ponsive at that wavelength. You will probably do better with a longer-wave UV source like an insect-killer tube (365nm).
Absolute legend! I was just thinking about this the other day, love the fact you can use it capacitive touch! Fair play to you! Currently working on a few things.. Maybe hit me up for a chat some time? Cheers!
There have been a lot of suggestions for this. I've switch to a spray polyurethane, but a number of products would probably work. I really don't have the time or resources to try them all! I recommend making some glass PCBs yourself and trying it out.
@CNLohr I think orgameron means leaving the copper traces in place while brushing a solvent over the areas where you don't want/need the UV glue and just using the actual traces to protect the glue like the toner protects the copper during etching. It seems like that's more or less what you're doing with the polyurethane though as it cuts through the UV glue like a solvent but is also acting as a new method to adhere the traces at the same time.
I dont do this stuff, but am interested in learning how. So for what it's worth from an inexperienced observer, perhaps using a hot plate or inverted iron to heat the glass evenly when melting your solder paste would limit the possibility of cracking it. place the slides in a thin frame (thumb tacks point up through cardboard) to prevent them from sliding around as much when applying the poly. Split a small dowel in half and pinch steel wool between the halves. Insert one end into a drill.
Very good work I must say.one thing I see a lot is solder iron so big for the smallest work.And all so in a right mess .i have 7-soldering irons all different and shiny clean.one iv just bought is 12-volt and I Added a tiny micro switch so when I hold it I just press with my finger and all added a white bright Led the Led stays on all the time when I'm using this micro soldering iron.your work is good and would be easier for you to use a small soldering iron for when you re-solder some of you micro work.great video keep up the good work
Schematic is in ExpressPCB. Full version of eagle is not free. I don't use anything that's for pay unless I absolutely cannot avoid it. It's simply discharges the circuit, then waits for it to charge via 1M-ohm resistor. Depending on how long it takes to charge, that's how it knows how much capacitance you are adding.
Also a syringe works well for depositing solder paste in tight areas, and automotive clear coat finish is highly resilient when it comes time to use solvents such as acetone, and is somewhat flexible until cured.
I use Liquid Tin quote often on most of my projects. The boards look 'cooler' with bare copper rather than tinned. I have still never successfully done a dual layer (not that I haven't tried). I would imagine the static properties are almost identical to regular FR4. I've been using glass circuit boards for a number of touch projects in my house which is carpeted, and even noticed some serious static, but haven't had a failure yet.
I've had the notion to try and make some PCBs out of unusual material like glass for a little while now, but I didn't really know where to begin (I've done the toner transfer method, but I had no idea if I could even buy copper sheets), thanks for the inspiration!
This is awesome. I'd love to see a controller like that for say, changing the radio or some sort of game input device. Thanks for showing us how you did it.
I have made a PVD and i made a completely clear and very thin PCB with that some years ago, looked pretty cool. Have also made copper, silver and aluminum mirrors that looked awesome.
Neat method for single sided surface mount designs but a few tips: 1. As Java Lu (and maybe others) said, TRIPOD - PLEASE!! 2. Tin board with tinning solution before assembly - gives superior soldering 3. Use several coats of auto-spray lacquer on final assy for vastly superior finish. 4. When spraying remove all connectors & protect the header pins with sleeving or low tack masking tape for larger blocks 5. CLEAN your soldering iron tip PLEASE & use a much finer tip for such work
It works on multiple substances, including film, however, you would not be able to toaster-oven film. You can do this on kapton, and it does toaster oven. I have never tried to do two layer.
@CNLohr basically the same thing you do to eat away the copper but for the UV glue you have. Use a solvent instead of ferric chloride(not sure if that's supposed to be one word or not) and use the etched pcb traces instead of toner. That way the glue is removed from the glass and the traces protect the glue under it. Like I said though you're already doing something similar with the polyurethane but with the added benefit of replacing the glue with something else more permanent.
That was a nice spark when you plugged in your programming board ~18:10. Your last resistor looks like it had a short under it. From our view, the top one to our right of the IC chip. The first time you place the copper on the glass slide, there is a better way to prevent bubbles to begin with so you don't need to squeeze them out. Basic bio-lab slide making 101.
It's an interesting idea. I have often thought about using an acrylic, but that would have problems at solder temperatures... I was always under the impression epoxies without a strengthener were very brittle, though.
Yes. I got some glass that was angel gilded, chemically plated on. I attempted to electroplate it further, but could not get it thick enough to electroplate effectively... The areas that I did were lumpy and did not go on even. Keep in mind, you need about 1 mil of metal to make a good circuit board.
Thanks for the fast reply. I have ordered some copper that is normally used for guitar pick-up shielding to experiment with. I have the exact same printer in this video to use I can test with and see what I can get it to do :). If I find a reliable method I will let you know.
This is an awesome idea. I think I'm going to try something like this, and see if I can pull off a through hole board. It's got to be possible if you drill real carefully, and have lots of extras on hand in the event of a slip of the hand.
I have this listed under my "to buy" section. I doubt the ferric chloride will be able to eat through the glue, but it may be possible to silkscreen the stuff.
I use the attiny44. You don't need any special IC, just a 1 megaohm resistor and an GPIO. You can do this on most of their processors, not things like the attiny2313 though. Also, you don't need qtouch.
Have you ever tried selectively gluing the copper on? I'm thinking: -UV glue the copper sheet to the slide -tape a negative of your circuit on the non-copper side -Expose the glue through the negative (so that only the glue under where the traces are meant to be gets exposed) -Peel off the reset of the copper
I'm laying one up with clear epoxy resin at this very moment. I'll let you know how it works out, I think it'll be a little less 'touchy' than the UV glue as it's what is used in conventional copper clad laminates
Compressive forces on the surface of the pane make it much harder to break. However, high tensile strengths in the glass pane make it shatter if cut, chipped or even sometimes scratched. This is why car windows, for example, will shatter into small, barely sharp parts instead of large, razor-sharp pieces.
That's really cool - I tried angel gilding and electroplating it thicker and a few other things, but nothing could stand up to what I was after like this.
@BelfonteFurnace You could always try with the not-glass variety. Additionally, I only have about a 50% yield when making boards of about 20 square inches and up.
I believe the quantity is somewhere in the order of one part per 30,000 dilution. If you pour the FeCl down the drain, bad things happen, if it's just a few drops, and you run plenty of water, it's not that bad.
If making a clear circuit was done in a mass scale we would have a clear phone not entirely clear but the first company to build it would the first step for the other companies. It would change the entire world.
I have not tried it, but I would imagine yes. I recently found out that UV lamp is not ideal for curing the glue because the wavelength is wrong. You would have to try.
When using the matte back copper, it doesn't really rub off.... ever it seems. But, I've been trying some shiny-backed copper and that is a major concern when removing the toner. Once the polyurethane is on, it's all on there for good. There's a lot of equipment, and not much space, I'll admit.
Yeah, I have a 5N now. I do tin boards, many times, but it ruins the look of the board. And, I haven't had any trouble with solder-ability when I use paste. I actually have switch to a spray polyurethane now, too, doing just that. And, I totally am good with that hulk tip.
excess solder can also be removed from bridged terminals on a surface mount components by simply stripping a piece of stranded copper wire using it like a sponge. i also prefer to take a grinder and chuck my tip in a drill to grind it to an extra fine point, then use liquid tin to prime the tip. Moving fast with a solder iron and solder paste you can avoid heating the glass by not exposing the glass to long periods of heat like you would using a messy soldering tip..
Awesome! I completely overlooked that file, thanks again. I was starting to pull my hair out because express pc doesn't like to run under my setup in crossover.
I've tried using angel gilded glass (both copper and silver) but never found a method that I could electroplate that wasn't completely terrible (either destroying the substrate or being lumpy). Also, it would be impractical to do electrolysis afterward as you would have to make contact with all the traces.
I do not agree that you don't need PTH. In most of the cases you can find alternatives, but as soon as you need a D-Sub mounted on the PCB, you're in trouble, because even the SMT version need holes. But one thing you should consider. Since you already have the UV eraser, why not use it as an exposure box ? Personally I've used the toner transfer method a number of times, but I prefer using the UV exposure method when I can, as it's more precise and gives less errors/problems.
btw: what about using a transparent casting epoxy like those used for embedding carbon fiber or fibreglass you could just pour a thin layer of epoxy directly on the copper - so you won't need any glass at all, get seamlessly bond material (transparent of course) and you don't have to worry about thermal issues while soldering technically it would be an FR4 or 5 PCB without the strengthening fibreglass sheets
I have tried, with many different epoxies, glues, etc. to no avail. Also, on glass, you can't use a clothes iron, but on regular PCBs, it's not that bad.
I may try this... I don't have a laminator or uv oven though. It's been years and years since I fooled with circuit design and/or breadboarding. I've never made pcb's. My line of work is BGA reball/reflow and general computer repair. Love anything to do with electronics!
This is very cool. It looks great and would get lots of kudos. I think think of a time where glass would be a practical advantage over epoxy but hey looks awesome. Great video thanks.
You put the carborundum paste onto the glass, chuck copper then spin it in the carborundum. some grit gets trapped by copper and a hole is drilled. Usually it is how larger holes are drilled but I don't see why smaller ones wouldn't work. Drilling glass is slow going though. I can't imagine drilling a whole circuit out in glass.
The glue is not conductive, while the glue is translucent, you'd still need a material that can conduct. I do use this process for touch sensors, I put designs into the copper.
As it turns out it appears the wavelength used in the eeprom eraser is not optimal. The glass is transparent to UV, but you need to use a source like a mercury hallide grow lamp to get the right wavelengths.
well i use a 1/32" bit with a dremel on normal PCBs and it works really well, but i highly doubt it's carbide tipped. what does it mean for glass to be tempered, though? i thought tempered glass would be more likely to withstand the drilling force.
I made something similar, but first step was to vapor-deposite copper on glass, then a bit of galvanic process to enhance layer, then mask + etching and OALA circuit on glass was done :)
perhaps I missed it, but why do you want to use glass? Granted, it's quite neat. But do you have a specific need for it? By the way, you could use bismuth solder, which melts at ~140C to reduce breakage.
well i have a good drill press and i imagine the glass wouldn't put up much of a fight if it was scored first and then i made sure it was coated with linseed oil when drilled. also, how sturdy is that glass in terms of breaking force?
I use the iron after the laminator, because my toner does not stick well with just the laminator. I've tried using acetone, but it eats the glue so quickly, the copper falls off the glass.
I found that tweezers for medical use work very well: precise, large variety of forms, stainless steel (anti magnetic) and can be cheaply bought on Amazon.
I have never tried acrylic, but as I recall, it blocks UV light. Additionally, it would not survive the soldering process, I'm assuming it would melt apart.
That is 100% dependent on the size of what you want. Also, I'm doing ones with very shiny undersides now, too, not just the matte brown. I wouldn't charge extra for them. I don't know... a 1"x3" probably $15... A 5"x5" (the biggest I can reliably do at present) probably $60? I can make the board decent outlines with glass cutting. This is a first for selling.. I've printed hundreds but they just get tested heavily.
im thinking about this for building an amplifier with a glass case so you can see everything inside. a lot of those components are only through hole due to their size. i think it would look amazing on a glass pcb with a clear enclosure
That seems to be what most people are using. I've read that they've changed the design recently (see the PCB "Fab in a box" page) for the worse. I was able to find this one on amazon that I'm going to try out called the Apache AL13P. Hopefully it won't need modification.
Nice! I can see this working well using visible LEDs UV glued emitter down to the board. Just a thought, but would this work if you used copper leaf from an arts and crafts shop? Its a lot thinner but you could maybe overplate it with copper to the correct thickness?
@BelfonteFurnace I have never tried layering this stuff, but I would not imagine it working too well. I don't really know how people do X/Y touch sensors.
I actually use Riston now instead of toner transfer and I use a grow lamp to cure the glue. BUT! Your problem isn't that you need two sides, it's that you are using D-sub connectors. Ditch the connector.
you concept of DIY pcb on glass is so Nice, i admire and would love to repeat the process for my satisfaction. Great Effort has gone in. all the best of many more successes in future ,CNLohr. regards sarma
Just google "solder paste" I use Kester no-clean lead-tin alloy. I highly recommend lead-tin alloy solder paste as the RoHS stuff has a higher melting temperature, and is more brittle.
Nice job. If you want to take some advice, here's one. Learn to use knives for the precision cuts, they are better if you master them. If you wear gloves and use some bath to degrease the component before the copper plating there will be no risk of contamination so the PCB will last much longer
This would be something of an educational value to illustrate the concept of a multi-layer vias within a multi-layer PCB. Of course it may be exceptionally difficult to fabricate one by hand. In some ways this design made the PCB look alot less "industrial" and more "artistic" while achieving the same objective. I'd say its practical :)
@frank26080115 under most processes, no. Some people have used direct inkjet resist deposition, but it's not something I ever intend to attempt. Using pulsar paper is just so easy!
now that I like the lamanater for adhering the toner to the copper I have always used a iron this is a nice idea I will now have to invest in one of those.
Could you use a laser printer to print resist onto the copper first while it is thin? Obviously the printer will need to provide a negative charge to the copper instead of the positive charge the printer normally places on the paper.
This all happens rather quickly, and you need to take many precision readings. You can observe, in an oscilloscope the shallownes of the rise changing depending on the surface area, but it's not something I'd recommend doing in the analog domain.
Yes, it would. But unless you are considering a Class D amplifier I'm afraid the conventional A and B designs may create unwanted and isolated hotspots in the circuit. If the amplifier is enclosed, a fan would be used as forced cooling. Glass is not a good conductor of heat and when heat is applied at one end while cooling is applied at the other, even tempered glass might product stress fractures.
First I would like to thank you for this very useful video. I have questions : After etching 13:20, if I clean the glue with acetone, does it remove all the glue whether it is covered by Cu film or not and so remove the Cu film ?, or it will remove the uncovered only ? Do you recommend any cleaning material that can remove the undesired UV glue ? Thanx a lot
The EPROM eraser uses shortwave UV light that is almost completely blocked by ordinary glass. That's why the EPROMs have quartz windows. A blacklight style longwave UV lamp may work better. Have you tried acetone nail varnish remover to clean the residual glue off?
bigclivedotcom Acetone causes the traces to slup off. I think it gets between the traces and the back of the PCB.
+CNLohr maybe the apliedscience's evaporative method would work? It's fast so I'm thinking maybe it would not have the time to get under the copper traces.
I really need to make more glass PCBs some time. There's so many things I want to try and new ideas so many people have had.. Right now, I'm so busy with other stuff.
I tried using an EPROM eraser to cheat making photo-resist pcb's in the 1980's - It took forever but eventually worked. The problem is that the wavelength of the UV light is wrong. It's like the difference between UV-A and UV-B.
Dude this is fucking awesome, I am a mechanical engineering student but I'm learning so much about electronics manufacturing from people like you and other open-source projects. Thanks a lot!
+H5ck Well, I am a student of electrical engineering and I learnt everything from UA-cam videos and Wikipedia. Thanks, school!
Wow. This is the first UA-cam user I've ever encountered who actually knows the proper use of UA-cam annotations. Well done sir!
If you're doing regular circuit boards, the laminator (note this is a modified GBC H-220) is spectacular. You can usually get everything to stick really well in 2-3 times through. No ironing needed.
Your etching solution is actually etching the glass giving it a frosted look. If you use pyrex or borosilicate glass slides you will not have this problem. You will have totally clear boards! The glass you are using must be a "soft" glass which has a COE (Coefficient of Expansion) of around 130, Pyrex or Boro glass has a COE of around 30. The low COE also makes it far less susceptible to thermal shock. Clear and no cracks! Win! Also this is one of the coolest things I've ever seen!
This is a flawless process and you did it with one hand, while filming and while talking.
You are my hero.
:)
Great video!
Wow, this is really ambitious and a very cool idea. We have expensive Liquid Flow Meters that just use a plate of glass over some heat detecting LEDs to act as simple push buttons but yet have the circuit isolated from the externals. This...could be very handy...great job by the way!
This is so incredibly cool! I can think of so many "just for looks" applications for this to make some really cool, and actually functional, stuff. Thank you for sharing this.
It's so cool the way you can see the etching happening through the glass.
its a relief to see a very well done instructional video on youtube! Cheers to you my brother! Greetings from germany
I doubt the slide has a UV coating - it's just that glass is not very transparent at the short wavelength used in UV erasers (253nm) Eprom windows and eraser tubes are made of quartz for this reason. It may also be the case that the glue is not very res[ponsive at that wavelength. You will probably do better with a longer-wave UV source like an insect-killer tube (365nm).
Absolute legend!
I was just thinking about this the other day, love the fact you can use it capacitive touch!
Fair play to you!
Currently working on a few things.. Maybe hit me up for a chat some time?
Cheers!
Even though i have no clue what any of this video meant, I enjoy listening to your voice, its very instructive :P
There have been a lot of suggestions for this. I've switch to a spray polyurethane, but a number of products would probably work. I really don't have the time or resources to try them all! I recommend making some glass PCBs yourself and trying it out.
@CNLohr I think orgameron means leaving the copper traces in place while brushing a solvent over the areas where you don't want/need the UV glue and just using the actual traces to protect the glue like the toner protects the copper during etching. It seems like that's more or less what you're doing with the polyurethane though as it cuts through the UV glue like a solvent but is also acting as a new method to adhere the traces at the same time.
I dont do this stuff, but am interested in learning how. So for what it's worth from an inexperienced observer, perhaps using a hot plate or inverted iron to heat the glass evenly when melting your solder paste would limit the possibility of cracking it. place the slides in a thin frame (thumb tacks point up through cardboard) to prevent them from sliding around as much when applying the poly. Split a small dowel in half and pinch steel wool between the halves. Insert one end into a drill.
Very good work I must say.one thing I see a lot is solder iron so big for the smallest work.And all so in a right mess .i have 7-soldering irons all different and shiny clean.one iv just bought is 12-volt and I Added a tiny micro switch so when I hold it I just press with my finger and all added a white bright Led the Led stays on all the time when I'm using this micro soldering iron.your work is good and would be easier for you to use a small soldering iron for when you re-solder some of you micro work.great video keep up the good work
Schematic is in ExpressPCB. Full version of eagle is not free. I don't use anything that's for pay unless I absolutely cannot avoid it.
It's simply discharges the circuit, then waits for it to charge via 1M-ohm resistor. Depending on how long it takes to charge, that's how it knows how much capacitance you are adding.
Also a syringe works well for depositing solder paste in tight areas, and automotive clear coat finish is highly resilient when it comes time to use solvents such as acetone, and is somewhat flexible until cured.
I use Liquid Tin quote often on most of my projects. The boards look 'cooler' with bare copper rather than tinned.
I have still never successfully done a dual layer (not that I haven't tried).
I would imagine the static properties are almost identical to regular FR4. I've been using glass circuit boards for a number of touch projects in my house which is carpeted, and even noticed some serious static, but haven't had a failure yet.
I've had the notion to try and make some PCBs out of unusual material like glass for a little while now, but I didn't really know where to begin (I've done the toner transfer method, but I had no idea if I could even buy copper sheets), thanks for the inspiration!
That is absolutely amazing!.. two thumbs for you my friend because that is technology and art in one piece.. not to mention it is functional as well.
This is awesome. I'd love to see a controller like that for say, changing the radio or some sort of game input device. Thanks for showing us how you did it.
I have made a PVD and i made a completely clear and very thin PCB with that some years ago, looked pretty cool. Have also made copper, silver and aluminum mirrors that looked awesome.
Neat method for single sided surface mount designs but a few tips:
1. As Java Lu (and maybe others) said, TRIPOD - PLEASE!!
2. Tin board with tinning solution before assembly - gives superior soldering
3. Use several coats of auto-spray lacquer on final assy for vastly superior finish.
4. When spraying remove all connectors & protect the header pins with sleeving or low tack masking tape for larger blocks
5. CLEAN your soldering iron tip PLEASE & use a much finer tip for such work
It works on multiple substances, including film, however, you would not be able to toaster-oven film. You can do this on kapton, and it does toaster oven.
I have never tried to do two layer.
@CNLohr basically the same thing you do to eat away the copper but for the UV glue you have. Use a solvent instead of ferric chloride(not sure if that's supposed to be one word or not) and use the etched pcb traces instead of toner. That way the glue is removed from the glass and the traces protect the glue under it. Like I said though you're already doing something similar with the polyurethane but with the added benefit of replacing the glue with something else more permanent.
That was a nice spark when you plugged in your programming board ~18:10.
Your last resistor looks like it had a short under it. From our view, the top one to our right of the IC chip.
The first time you place the copper on the glass slide, there is a better way to prevent bubbles to begin with so you don't need to squeeze them out. Basic bio-lab slide making 101.
Really cool. I wrap a paper clip around my soldering tip to get in really tight spots.
It's an interesting idea. I have often thought about using an acrylic, but that would have problems at solder temperatures... I was always under the impression epoxies without a strengthener were very brittle, though.
oh but note: the glass and actual construction of the board itself was quite sufficient in this video and I want to say awesome vid ^_^
Yes. I got some glass that was angel gilded, chemically plated on. I attempted to electroplate it further, but could not get it thick enough to electroplate effectively... The areas that I did were lumpy and did not go on even. Keep in mind, you need about 1 mil of metal to make a good circuit board.
Thanks for the fast reply. I have ordered some copper that is normally used for guitar pick-up shielding to experiment with. I have the exact same printer in this video to use I can test with and see what I can get it to do :). If I find a reliable method I will let you know.
This is an awesome idea. I think I'm going to try something like this, and see if I can pull off a through hole board. It's got to be possible if you drill real carefully, and have lots of extras on hand in the event of a slip of the hand.
Wow this was the coolest thing I saw the past few months
I have this listed under my "to buy" section. I doubt the ferric chloride will be able to eat through the glue, but it may be possible to silkscreen the stuff.
I use the attiny44. You don't need any special IC, just a 1 megaohm resistor and an GPIO. You can do this on most of their processors, not things like the attiny2313 though. Also, you don't need qtouch.
Have you ever tried selectively gluing the copper on? I'm thinking:
-UV glue the copper sheet to the slide
-tape a negative of your circuit on the non-copper side
-Expose the glue through the negative (so that only the glue under where the traces are meant to be gets exposed)
-Peel off the reset of the copper
I do use a drop from the middle nowadays, but there are usually very, very small bubbles on the surface that do not splay out.
I'm laying one up with clear epoxy resin at this very moment. I'll let you know how it works out, I think it'll be a little less 'touchy' than the UV glue as it's what is used in conventional copper clad laminates
Compressive forces on the surface of the pane make it much harder to break. However, high tensile strengths in the glass pane make it shatter if cut, chipped or even sometimes scratched. This is why car windows, for example, will shatter into small, barely sharp parts instead of large, razor-sharp pieces.
That's really cool - I tried angel gilding and electroplating it thicker and a few other things, but nothing could stand up to what I was after like this.
Dude, this is incredible! I have never seen anything like this. After seeing this vid, I have a few cool ideas to try soon.
@BelfonteFurnace You could always try with the not-glass variety. Additionally, I only have about a 50% yield when making boards of about 20 square inches and up.
I believe the quantity is somewhere in the order of one part per 30,000 dilution. If you pour the FeCl down the drain, bad things happen, if it's just a few drops, and you run plenty of water, it's not that bad.
If making a clear circuit was done in a mass scale we would have a clear phone not entirely clear but the first company to build it would the first step for the other companies. It would change the entire world.
It's got so many drawbacks though. This was more for an aesthetic than any practical reason.
I have not tried it, but I would imagine yes. I recently found out that UV lamp is not ideal for curing the glue because the wavelength is wrong. You would have to try.
When using the matte back copper, it doesn't really rub off.... ever it seems. But, I've been trying some shiny-backed copper and that is a major concern when removing the toner. Once the polyurethane is on, it's all on there for good. There's a lot of equipment, and not much space, I'll admit.
Its been about a year but I finally made a board that plugs into an Atmel board. Can't wait to get them in.
Yeah, I have a 5N now. I do tin boards, many times, but it ruins the look of the board. And, I haven't had any trouble with solder-ability when I use paste. I actually have switch to a spray polyurethane now, too, doing just that. And, I totally am good with that hulk tip.
excess solder can also be removed from bridged terminals on a surface mount components by simply stripping a piece of stranded copper wire using it like a sponge. i also prefer to take a grinder and chuck my tip in a drill to grind it to an extra fine point, then use liquid tin to prime the tip. Moving fast with a solder iron and solder paste you can avoid heating the glass by not exposing the glass to long periods of heat like you would using a messy soldering tip..
Awesome! I completely overlooked that file, thanks again. I was starting to pull my hair out because express pc doesn't like to run under my setup in crossover.
I've tried using angel gilded glass (both copper and silver) but never found a method that I could electroplate that wasn't completely terrible (either destroying the substrate or being lumpy). Also, it would be impractical to do electrolysis afterward as you would have to make contact with all the traces.
I do not agree that you don't need PTH. In most of the cases you can find alternatives, but as soon as you need a D-Sub mounted on the PCB, you're in trouble, because even the SMT version need holes.
But one thing you should consider. Since you already have the UV eraser, why not use it as an exposure box ?
Personally I've used the toner transfer method a number of times, but I prefer using the UV exposure method when I can, as it's more precise and gives less errors/problems.
Pretty cool project. The camera focus bit was funny. A tip, just put the camera in macro mode. No more focus problems.
Nice work!
Unfortunately I've not patience to do all this stuff, and never got a good results...
Your work is very good, have quality!
btw: what about using a transparent casting epoxy like those used for embedding carbon fiber or fibreglass
you could just pour a thin layer of epoxy directly on the copper - so you won't need any glass at all, get seamlessly bond material (transparent of course) and you don't have to worry about thermal issues while soldering
technically it would be an FR4 or 5 PCB without the strengthening fibreglass sheets
I have tried, with many different epoxies, glues, etc. to no avail. Also, on glass, you can't use a clothes iron, but on regular PCBs, it's not that bad.
to protect the circuit from grime, dust, and to an extent ESD in the environment as well as to make the boards shiny and more see-through.
I may try this... I don't have a laminator or uv oven though. It's been years and years since I fooled with circuit design and/or breadboarding. I've never made pcb's. My line of work is BGA reball/reflow and general computer repair. Love anything to do with electronics!
This is very cool. It looks great and would get lots of kudos. I think think of a time where glass would be a practical advantage over epoxy but hey looks awesome. Great video thanks.
You put the carborundum paste onto the glass, chuck copper then spin it in the carborundum. some grit gets trapped by copper and a hole is drilled. Usually it is how larger holes are drilled but I don't see why smaller ones wouldn't work. Drilling glass is slow going though. I can't imagine drilling a whole circuit out in glass.
The glue is not conductive, while the glue is translucent, you'd still need a material that can conduct. I do use this process for touch sensors, I put designs into the copper.
As it turns out it appears the wavelength used in the eeprom eraser is not optimal. The glass is transparent to UV, but you need to use a source like a mercury hallide grow lamp to get the right wavelengths.
The processor on there is an attiny44... I was using a tinyisp to program it. The specific programmer was a redesign I did.
well i use a 1/32" bit with a dremel on normal PCBs and it works really well, but i highly doubt it's carbide tipped. what does it mean for glass to be tempered, though? i thought tempered glass would be more likely to withstand the drilling force.
I made something similar, but first step was to vapor-deposite copper on glass, then a bit of galvanic process to enhance layer, then mask + etching and OALA circuit on glass was done :)
perhaps I missed it, but why do you want to use glass? Granted, it's quite neat. But do you have a specific need for it? By the way, you could use bismuth solder, which melts at ~140C to reduce breakage.
I'm pretty sure it's a matter of glass /really/ wanting to shatter when you drill it. I've never tried though.
well i have a good drill press and i imagine the glass wouldn't put up much of a fight if it was scored first and then i made sure it was coated with linseed oil when drilled. also, how sturdy is that glass in terms of breaking force?
I use the iron after the laminator, because my toner does not stick well with just the laminator.
I've tried using acetone, but it eats the glue so quickly, the copper falls off the glass.
It's just a touch sensor - depending on the area you contact, it changes how strongly it believe it is pressed.
I wonder if using heat activated glue would let you able to make double sided PCBs. Had an idea of using brass foil for a circuit board.
I found that tweezers for medical use work very well: precise, large variety of forms, stainless steel (anti magnetic) and can be cheaply bought on Amazon.
I have never tried acrylic, but as I recall, it blocks UV light. Additionally, it would not survive the soldering process, I'm assuming it would melt apart.
That is 100% dependent on the size of what you want. Also, I'm doing ones with very shiny undersides now, too, not just the matte brown. I wouldn't charge extra for them.
I don't know... a 1"x3" probably $15... A 5"x5" (the biggest I can reliably do at present) probably $60? I can make the board decent outlines with glass cutting.
This is a first for selling.. I've printed hundreds but they just get tested heavily.
im thinking about this for building an amplifier with a glass case so you can see everything inside. a lot of those components are only through hole due to their size. i think it would look amazing on a glass pcb with a clear enclosure
its basically liquid acrylic - although in heavy coats it tends to contract quite a bit, but many light coats should do the trick !
I used a pen-plotter once with appropriate ink. It worked out very well.
That seems to be what most people are using. I've read that they've changed the design recently (see the PCB "Fab in a box" page) for the worse. I was able to find this one on amazon that I'm going to try out called the Apache AL13P. Hopefully it won't need modification.
This is awesome! Clear glass PCB's look really nice and I'd want to build something with LED's on a glass plate like that :)
Actually, I just had another thought A) Would thinner copper work? If so, it could always be coated to thicken it up.
I get mine from Digikey, but you can get it from a few other places. Pulsar toner transfer paper!
Might also be possible to directly mount chips and LEDs to the glass using Z axis film?
Nice! I can see this working well using visible LEDs UV glued emitter down to the board.
Just a thought, but would this work if you used copper leaf from an arts and crafts shop? Its a lot thinner but you could maybe overplate it with copper to the correct thickness?
@BelfonteFurnace I have never tried layering this stuff, but I would not imagine it working too well. I don't really know how people do X/Y touch sensors.
I actually use Riston now instead of toner transfer and I use a grow lamp to cure the glue. BUT! Your problem isn't that you need two sides, it's that you are using D-sub connectors. Ditch the connector.
you concept of DIY pcb on glass is so Nice, i admire and would love to repeat the process for my satisfaction. Great Effort has gone in.
all the best of many more successes in future ,CNLohr.
regards
sarma
thanks :)
It kinda reminds me of SG:A
Just google "solder paste" I use Kester no-clean lead-tin alloy. I highly recommend lead-tin alloy solder paste as the RoHS stuff has a higher melting temperature, and is more brittle.
I have no clue what you did there or why. But it sure was interesting to watch.
Nice job. If you want to take some advice, here's one. Learn to use knives for the precision cuts, they are better if you master them. If you wear gloves and use some bath to degrease the component before the copper plating there will be no risk of contamination so the PCB will last much longer
This would be something of an educational value to illustrate the concept of a multi-layer vias within a multi-layer PCB. Of course it may be exceptionally difficult to fabricate one by hand. In some ways this design made the PCB look alot less "industrial" and more "artistic" while achieving the same objective. I'd say its practical :)
@frank26080115 under most processes, no. Some people have used direct inkjet resist deposition, but it's not something I ever intend to attempt. Using pulsar paper is just so easy!
now that I like the lamanater for adhering the toner to the copper I have always used a iron this is a nice idea I will now have to invest in one of those.
Could you use a laser printer to print resist onto the copper first while it is thin? Obviously the printer will need to provide a negative charge to the copper instead of the positive charge the printer normally places on the paper.
This all happens rather quickly, and you need to take many precision readings. You can observe, in an oscilloscope the shallownes of the rise changing depending on the surface area, but it's not something I'd recommend doing in the analog domain.
Yes, it would. But unless you are considering a Class D amplifier I'm afraid the conventional A and B designs may create unwanted and isolated hotspots in the circuit. If the amplifier is enclosed, a fan would be used as forced cooling. Glass is not a good conductor of heat and when heat is applied at one end while cooling is applied at the other, even tempered glass might product stress fractures.
I do now! But, you can't etch until it's attached to the glass otherwise you get a pile of traces.
First I would like to thank you for this very useful video. I have questions :
After etching 13:20, if I clean the glue with acetone, does it remove all the glue whether it is covered by Cu film or not and so remove the Cu film ?, or it will remove the uncovered only ? Do you recommend any cleaning material that can remove the undesired UV glue ?
Thanx a lot
I've tried a few, but nothing ended up working out. Even now, my process has changed some but I am still using the same glue.