No-Code is Trash
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- Опубліковано 10 вер 2024
- "No-code" is complicated. We clear it up.
In this video, we dive deep into why the term "no-code" doesn't do FlutterFlow justice and explore what FlutterFlow truly is. Discover why FlutterFlow is a Visual Development Platform that balances ease of use with the power of code. We’ll explain the evolution of app development interfaces, the pitfalls of high abstraction tools, and why FlutterFlow stands out as a low-abstraction platform that gives you both control and flexibility. Whether you're a seasoned developer or new to app development, this video will reshape how you think about building apps.
Ready to try FlutterFlow for yourself? Start building your app today with a free trial 👉 www.flutterflo...
Follow us on Twitter 👉 / flutterflow
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FlutterFlow is a low-code builder for native apps, bringing design and development into one tool. With drag-and-drop functionality, you can build pixel-perfect UIs and easily connect your app to live data via Firebase or APIs. Plus, you can add advanced features like push notifications, payments, animations, and more. Whether you build your own custom widgets or write custom code, FlutterFlow makes it easy to bring your app ideas to life.
Continue this discussion in person at the FlutterFlow Developer Conference (FFDC) on Sept 17 in NYC. We're offering free tickets to folks in this UA-cam chat until Thurs, Aug 29. To register, visit ffdc.io. During checkout, click the button "Do you have a promo code?" and enter the code ffdc24-ff-YbV3 to get a free ticket!
The event will be livestreamed on UA-cam as well!
Damn, never used flutter nor flutterflow, but this video was nice and interesting to say the least
Let's leave everything about no code aside.... Did anyone notice that most of the tutorials on this channel are taught by this voice? So i finally came to know that this person is the who made excellent flutterflow tutorial videos... Let's be thankful to him...
🙏👏
Yeah, I want to hire him to do my voice overs!
Yes I love all his tutorial videos, does anyone know his name?
@@paulclarke4099 John Higgins
@@paulclarke4099 his name is Frank, he is here few comments above 😊
A proprietary platform cannot be the next iteration of the development interface.
But it can inspire open source developers to create their own one.
Facts
Ya
Very wise words ;)
Open source developers making an interface for humans. Looks like you haven't paid attention to the past 40 years of failure. Any halfway decent user interface used on an actual open source anything was made by a for profit, because open source treats UI designers like second class citizens, if that.
@@fat4eyes Yes, many open source projects don't have great UI. But there are certainly some that do. (Godot, Meshroom etc)
This is probably the best sales pitch for flutterflow out there, and I don't even want to use it yet lol
My thoughts exactly
Same lol. I’m over here searching to see if they’re publicly traded so I can throw some money in to them 😂
Don't use it for a serious project. This is hobby for high-school kids
@@Mike-xw4gm Why?
When the best marketing strategy is a direct frontal attack on your worst insecurities.
I recently said that FlutterFlow was looking to rebrand itself as a “Visual Development Environment” and people were amazed even tho that’s what FF currently is.
I've always find it weird to call myself a "no-code" developer
It’s like a “no-cook” Chef
Yes, because 'nocode' is a misleading term. Even so-called nocode tools rely on code behind the scenes
I just say programmer lmfaoo thats what it really is
You are a middle abstraction developer
You’re a developer
Omg a face to the voice of all the tutorials! You are a legend!!
I was going to say the same thing😀
Nobody:
Absolutely nobody:
The guy in the video tutorial: "Beautiful"
@@Helio_Gaitacan't believe am not the only one who hears that 😂😂
GUI is not always better than CLI.
For certain activities CLI is better.
For example working with folders and files in CLI can be more convenient in certain circumstances.
It depends on the use case, that's why we developers want to create a user-friendly and convenient application with the help of GUI especially for the non-technical users that's makes the system is for everyone not only us.
I think one of the real benefits of CLI is easy automation, using scripts
I have terminals on speed dial. Can't do without it. Ever tried to perform an action across a whole bunch of files with a GUI?
Like mass-renaming files? I've done that with a Bash Script before.
sorta missing the forest for the trees here. point is to compare the abstraction / development between text based and graphical interfaces.
I think there's a space for an update that would allow the code to be exported, get some modifications and can upload it back to FF, so that we can keep building on FF
You can export the code, modify it and host on firebase
@@Pankomentatorcan you import back the code to Flutterflow?
No you push it to firebase hosting
@@Pankomentatorthen what the hell is the point
No matter how you want to phrase it, while I love Flutter Flow, it is not suitable for full-on customization at-ease. I rather develop components from scratch, especially if I'm already building something in a "no-code" environment. Just saying.
why not suitable for full-on customization, doesn''t it allow you to buid custom widgets/functions/components? or i am missing something
@@islamhamdi6249 You have the option to create a component, but you are limited to the UX/UI framework. It's not 100% custom.
While I understand the premise of the video and I agree with it - it's still a tool that their audience sees as "no-code platform" and if we're honest? It's okay as well. But it's hard to promote it for fully customized applications. It's fantastic for world-class level designs for sure.
I mean yeah, you can call it whatever you want, but those issues you brought up yourself STILL APPLY. FF still gives out Spaghetti Code, still doesn't allow you to export & change the final code, and then bring it back and continue building in FF, the web apps running on it are PAINFULLY slow, etc. that's why I mostly look at it as an MVP design tool for only mobile apps. I hope this changes soon, because I hate having to work with a bunch of code in a bunch of HTML, CSS, Next.JS files for a super simple web app dashboard.
Slow rendering of wep app home page is a killer.
give 'em an inch, and they'll want a yard. make use of the tools rather than complaining about it 'now' cant do yet
Sounds like someone needs to introduce you to tailwind and htmx 😜
Imagine wanting to be called a front end dev and not bothering to learn css. In my uni it’s literally a mandatory lesson for everybody in the first year even if you want to do embedded
I am a happy FlutterFlow user, yet I dont like this video. It is branding to distance FF from the term no-code, but this is not how branding works. It also shows that you are not really listening to user feedback :'(
Show us large apps that are "proudly build with FlutterFlow", 'proper' tech companies using FF in their production workflow, or simply people building and debugging custom components. This will be far more convincing and better branding than saying "we dont want to be no-code, please dont judge us by this measure".
While at it, your users are saying that your abstraction is currently broken. You want to be a low-level abstraction and when it gets in the way you need custom components. The developer experience of these is inferior compared to a dedicated, local IDE setup. People give up and say "thats just typical for a no-code tool". Please don't argue against the symptom, instead fix the underlying issue (and advertise the fix).
Also, you don't get to argue against how people receive the message. You get to control what message you send, not how it is understood. This is feedback on how to fix your marketing copy (and improve the product) not an opinion you can argue against.
it's not so much a branding video, they're explaining the new paradigm
Your last paragraph is wrong, you can’t fix his marketing copy, you can say how to fix the product. Even if it is a crappy program, his marketing for it is great and will surely get new users, look at the Tesla Cybertruck for example
@@neanda "the new paradigm" are you really going to believe all this marketing crap? It's just a more modern Windows Forms.
They got the money for native programming.
I'm glad they tackled this concept head-on. Def changed my perspective
RAD or "Rapid Application Development" would be a better way to describe FlutterFlow.
That's how I describe flutterflow when teaching people build apps.
A complete no-code/low-code tool doesn't provide this much flexibility, You are trapped in what the platform offers you.
Flutterflow is just right. Its basically an enhancements over traditional development we do, and good thing that it follows the same structure and practices as we do in app development.
I always found this enhancement truly game changing when we expect to build and ship stuff fast, and for anything that we need out of the box, its just something we can implement without worrying much.
To help this advance it would be great if FlutterFlow put out videos to help create custom components. Something as basic as creating a component in FF and then being able to add it to a custom widget is not explained. That's brutal because it stops the flow of customization by the user who wants to do more. Waiting for UA-cam to do this is an insufficient approach. Many talk about it but not at the level needed, at least by me.
ua-cam.com/users/liveRqfjZxKAKgE?si=yjZ5MNjY9XN1G_M5
ua-cam.com/video/0jp2-Rge9IE/v-deo.htmlsi=b8YtZTZ3vNws18qG
ua-cam.com/video/QUBS0KFfwB4/v-deo.htmlsi=B346yAWak-JWPN5t
Heres a four-part UA-cam video series on creating a FlutterFlow widgets-based custom calendar component you might find useful:
ua-cam.com/video/Bv0GrU7MibQ/v-deo.htmlsi=UuAZ1vnHMfCrn8g5
@@clarkmakes I misspoke a smidge. I meant to say, how do you create a component and then reference that component when making a custom widget? For example, I have a custom calendar widget but I want to use a component I made that I would like to use as the listview tile. So instead of the regular list view tile, I would like to use the component I made instead.
@@DavidHust if i understand you correctly, go to the Widgets pallette, then select components, then scroll to the bottom to see the Custom Code Widgets that you can then drag and drop in
This is why James NoCode (oops, there's that word again) is so popular. He shows you what FF doesn't. www.youtube.com/@jamesnocode
Well said, i prefer coding at anytime, i hate limitations and unnecessary spending for a feature i could write for free.
I've been developing solutions using Oracle tools for 28+ years, and I started using flutterflow about 6 months ago, definitively is very similar it saves me a lot of time on the GUI development and gives me the control to add code as complex as I need if I export it to VS Code, for me is the best of both words.
I think the tittle should be changed to something like
"FlutterFlow Explained | Visual Development Platform"
leave the "No-Code is Trash" on the thumbnail only because its for me it makes it look like a rant video while in reality it is very informative
I agree, the "Trash" comment is poorly placed.
Bruh, our lecturers even disqualify any apps made for our FYP using FlutterFlow or 'NoCode' services.
But RoboFlow for AI? No prob! RUN IT! YOU PASS!
lol
"Almost no-one today is building compilers".
Meanwhile C, C++, D, Zig, Rust, Go, Carbon, Java, C#, and every other interpreted language that is compiled to bytecode under the hood developers: o_o
No-code tools should have an export button. For when your app needs to scale and for not being vendor locked. You want to leave when the no-code can't do the stuff you want or handle the numbers etc.
We’ve got that! Also you can push straight to GitHub.
This is a cool video, but as some other comments have said, I think the future of visual development platforms will be an extension to something like VSCode, or a new IDE entirely that works with any existing code base. One example is Codux, which was a visual IDE for React that could work with any existing react code. Proprietary IDE's never feel like you have full control over the app. I saw in the pricing tier, it's $30 just to download the code, so I will still consider this a "low-code" platform rather than an actual visual development platform. We need more projects like Codux (a visual IDE for react) to come out that still give devs full control of the code, but it is hard to do since these might not make money. There were several projects like Codux before that were open source but eventually dropped. I think it will take a larger company (similar to how Microsoft is now maintaining VSCode) to create something like this that is open and works with any code.
1:08 people did question it, and that's why we mostly use Unicode now for better international language support.
>new step in code development, incredible results
>look inside
>scratch
I recently watched the last video in the intro "it's a trap...". And left scratching my head. Many of the "limitations" always had a solution. They even mentioned lack.of customizability which was the biggest head scratcher. I design. Everything from scratch and never ran into anything I could not build in FF. It's almost as she fundamentally misunderstood how to use FF...
My 2 cents:
- Testing enviroment and bug detection is too complex
- Very detached from data model.
Some AI that can detect data model and auto create visual representation on canvas can improve usability
great video makes me prod to be a flutterflow dev and honestly this guys deserves just as much credit as the platform his educational speaking and detailing of the platform is truly amazing glad he's getting more camera time. Honestly I'm glad this conversation is happening a lot of people are confused with what "no-code" actually means
You literally just made me feel better about wanting to learn Flutterflow and master it to help build software applications 😊
Don't waste your time. It ain't worth it. Just learn to code and do it yourself
What a great reflection on FlutterFlow and the positioning within the low/no code area. Love it!
Actually the best tool I've found...definitely not a no code! Definitely need code or some background in it 😊. Love using it
This seems to be a product rationale for potential investors. FF needs to develop a beginning to end learning schema for entry level developers.
That video is just a market placement strategy to distance your self from low-code / no code tools which have a bad reputation and standing.
Thing is your tool is a low-code / no-code (for all boilerplate things, which is 80% of the work as you said so yourself) whether you want it or not.
Yes, he didn't address any of the problems that developers are facing. The trash code he mentioned and swiping it away quite fast. Pretty poor defense.
Great video! I just started developing an app this summer and with zero app building experience prior, flutter flow has been a god send! It is still not as easy as building a website or using canva, but if it was easy then everyone would be doing it. I truly believe app development will be as easy as creating a website is today soon!
Every great idea challenge people afraid of evolution. If it wasn´t for FF I could have spent years, instead of months, but I would have make my apps anyway. Keep the good job and you!!!!! specially you!!! have make knowledge so important for individuals like me.
Yes, it still a long way to go, it will always be, but as far as you have the support of your customers and keep hear them and develop support for them, the company will grow.
Flutter and Flutter Flow is honestly a cheat code. So happy that we have this tool
Sure seems like Visual Basic for the web!
This is really helpful - Thinking of Flutterflow as a Visual Development Platform really clarifies its place in the market. My favorite line, as they reject being labeled as a "no code platform" is when John says "after all, the development of automobiles was not part of the 'no horse' movement" 😂
Who is the guy in this video, does anyone know his name? I love all the FlutterFlow tutorials he has done 💯😃👍
Thank you for reigonal discounts guys! I am not a coder and I would never have been able to try it without them.
Well summarized, Flutterflow is the next iteration of application development
No, it's not. It's proprietary.
I would say it in other way - the marketing team from flutterFlow would like you think it's next iteration but it's NOT. No-Code platforms are very limited comparing to real coding. To understand it better try to imagin that Isaack Newton would have to express the laws of mechanics using pictures instead of math formulas. The same problem is when you try to expres custom logic using no-code.
Flutterflow is just another way to plan out the ideas, which is what coding is. Writing text isn’t the only way.
Exactly. Coding is not only writing texts.
well said
Cope😂
Coding is the implementation of ideas, not the plan.
@@JiggyJones0yeah don’t know what the original comment was talking about 😂😂😂 I am a Ui Ux designer, we use figma and wireframes to plan out the ideas the next step after that is to BUILD the idea 😂
Fantastic explanation! I plan to use it in my next project! Thank you!
Fuschia with flutter are the future
Fuschia is officially dead. Flutter is still awesome though.
@@rohankumarpanigrahi7475 It's obvious that you don't know about the subject, just look at the fact that the project continues to be updated and will be the successor to Android that will also compete with Windows and macOS
I'd suggest to check the spelling of the project name before speculating of its future.
@@guccislinger I recommend you read the book zero to one so you can understand it easily.
@@estefanocampoverde3660 are you crazy ? Google stopped even chrome port to fuchsia it may be used in the nest devices but based on the ongoing stuff for the past few years fuchsia is not really going to be anything as big as initially advertised.
Google has AI as it's priorities at the moment so developing new operating systems looks to be a far fetched thing
I don't know. I've never looked back after moving from Storyboards to SwiftUI. You're always going to be limited by the no/low-code application, not to mention the lack of version control. For simple, personal projects it's great though
To be honest, i was also in the "no code is trash" but the way you explained it, it changes everything and i pretty much done with "i hate no code tools, you cant be a real developer with that" ego
Your explanation was clear and thorough. Excellent video!
Code exists as an interface between a computer and the programmer, it's literally as simple as it can possibly be to enable true customization... any "no-code" or "low-code" solution are by their nature a compromise. It's just a slightly adjustable template that somebody else coded for you, and good luck with all other edge cases.
So did you use no-code to build your tool that build no-code?
stay tuned ;)
great video, considering i have a ton of code along side my flutterflow project i’ve always been confused by “programmers” calling it no-code. i’m an engineering not a coder by background and i’ve been able to understand this.
i haven’t found one thing i could not implement yet, and i implemented very custom getstream chat setup and custom navigation etc in my main.dart
the real magic happens when you need to re-factor a large amount of code. i’ve done massive refactors of very complex parts of my app in a day vs 3-6 days…
Love y’all. My software of choice
I like that you show the code as well
thanks to flutterflow, now i get the fundamental concepts of flutter and helps me with coding flutter
it's a rollercoster! i was senior java programmer and was amazed that there are nocode tools, that got rid of all unpleasent aspects of codeing, then i got into framer with code components generated by ai, then ai started generating whole node.js projects and it became too complicated again to handle a bit larger projects that are now possible to generate (i have low self esteem) - so flutterflow with low level abstractions can help with managing a button like a button, and not as component with whole spagetty file generated by ai.. i'll try it, say no more!
I don't know Flutter, but this was very convincing about the general topic of abstraction and low-code.
He has a point, but sadly flutterflow ir more focused on sass (specially on GCP) instead of custom integrations, so the comparation with IDE is not accurate, I would love to see what is the next step of flutterflow if they are going to move in a more abstract way to make the solutions independent to the provider
Yes. They must transit to become a real IDE.
Working on it.
This makes me even wonder if I after 90% developing can upload it to app stores. If the code that will be compiled is "trash" does it even work on Apple's app store?
Great work, this video was very much needed! I no longer have to explain to people. I will just send them this video! :)
Webflow and Flutterflow ♥
Love this style of videos and explainer. Really good job, keep this style up!
I’m a web designer and did front end development in html/css/js before moving to WP block editor, which still requires some code. Coming from that background flutterflow was a pretty steep learning curve for me, so many widgets! It almost felt like going back to designing with tables. I’m getting there slowly though, and It’s the only way I could even hope to complete quite a complex app project. My company let our developer go and didn’t replace him.
The goal for no-code solutions is not to make the best product, but to make a product as good as it can get in a small amount of time. If you ever want to build the best product, you need programmers and lots of time.
Well done! That pop up white text was perfectly executed!! I heard those sound effects!
I have no clue why the UA-cam algorithm actually worked today 🤷
Too many companies are being sucked into these proprietary no-code UIs that will be obsolete in 5 years and have to scramble to the next "hot thing," then the next, and the next...
This is them being transparent, I saw a video of someone who said she was trying to build a complex app on FlutterFlow and FlutterFlow wasn’t messing up because the app requires some programming as a result of it’s complexity
Criticizing no-code tools in favor of one's own tool can indeed be a waste of time. A more productive approach would be to understand the advantages and limitations of each method, and to choose the most appropriate tool for each situation.
The issue I anticipate having with FF is it will eventually descend into WordPress standards because of the user's desires and requests.
We'll ascend 🧗
@@FlutterFlow i see it
The integration with Backend as service, authentication, and payment is pretty cool I have to be honest... although it feels like a "starting point" when you have to do apps in a week challenge type shit if you repeat these processes every time makes sense.
The strongest point is "boilerplate" but once you get it... is done. Integration like Firebase, Supabase or stripe is primarily in used framework they have really little to no interest in making it work on a "for profit, closed and proprietary platform".
The biggest disadvantage is that Code based apps are not expensive.
This video explains very well why you as a developer should always learn to write code first and you as a client should never make the decition of using any platform before a tech expert evaluates its use case, the only think this platforms are almost always good for is quick protos to show the investors before actually building the product
Honestly, if we had a voice command AI that is capable of writing code exactly like you envision it, then I'd totally and completely on board with such technology.
It's a difficult thing to be a true forerunner in the evolution of development innovation.
Supporting professional devs and designers while appealing to those less proficient in coding and designing is costly and can be frustrating.
A dedicated team supporting less proficient customers would be ideal, and as FlutterFlow continues to mature, this will likely become less and less likely.
Nevertheless, some of us in the middle of that spectrum stull find joy in the promise and potential of visual development environments of which FlutterFlow is the clear leader.
The next open-source no-code tool could dominate the market, but the key issue is that apps built with these tools are often tied to their platforms. If these tools allow code to be easily used in code editors, it would eliminate scalability limitations, similar to what we saw with WordPress.
Saying that no-code is good without showcasing a functional, normal-looking app created with it isn't convincing. So, as I understand it, now that FF is here, there's still no real app to show.
Flutter Flow: Please feel like you were using the cmd and we brought you VSCode.
The customer: No. What the f?
Lie!
They tried to create a 100% no-code tool, but over time it turned out to be impossible, so they made concessions ;)
Finally the team replied all those people who don't understand the vision.
This is a fantastic explanation for the underlying philosophy of no code. This is coming from a guy who regularly implements no-code solutions for certain projects. No-code is just useful, and you can quickly learn about programming principles that traditional coding just doesn’t make intuitive.
With that said, I think no-code will always have trouble shaking the stigma that it is too quick and dirty. It’s good for prototyping or building “micro-apps” that can be embedded into a larger platform.
But thinking more deeply about this, I think it really starts to become an issue of the tool vs. the user. No-code empowers non-technical users in a way that is uniquely dangerous. Users can build apps with absolutely zero idea about good principles. And instead of their skill issues humbling them at the first turn, they might develop a full application that functions, but is riddled with technical debt. Do not underestimate the arrogance of high ranking pseudo-techies who are actively building hot garbage to solve one problem while unknowingly creating 7 more without realizing it.
I'm sold. I will be using flutter flow for my app development from now on
So No-Code is renamed Visual Basic.
Nothing but facts
Also, thank you all for giving me the premium student package. Love from Kenya
Your opening statement was very powerful
I did not realize into 33% into the video that the background is not real lol
If the GUI succeed console/terminal, why developers still use terminal/console over GUI?
Can't believe you managed to get me to watch a 10 minute sales pitch. Good Job?
Too bad I'm very opposed to proprietary IDEs
I always thought such a layout was no-code, whereas we don't need to write any code at al, basically just click-and-go with drag-and-drop... WYSIWYG GUI, while maybe impossible to cause syntax errors. Even just "select" the most common functions to add.
so FutterFlow is basically like a game engine but for webapps?
*"no code" is like "free candy" on a white van*
Text is the best interface for building applications. This pre-dates the invention of the electronic computer. Computational theory was developed before we had machines that could compute. A computer and the instructions that go into a computer are mathematics. We've had symbols and notations for mathematics for quite a long time. While mathematics isn't limited to equations, for example we have geometry and graphs, text really is the best way to express math, especially when it is a large amount of instructions. This goes back thousands of years! Do we really think "modern" computers suddenly changes that in 10 - 20 years time?
So it's basically modern Delphi and VB.
Not saying this as a criticism, I've been doing some retro projects on Delphi 1 and I love it.
But it's not new, RAD development platforms have existed for 30 years or more.
I made an app with flutterflow with no code. It's a great no code product!
even for no code platform, like FF, you need to know devops, managing repo and deployment, different components of flutter, front end knowledge at leadtZ FF is not designed for non-coders honestly, let’s be honest.
Cool video, but it feels a bit forced, i think ill just keep calling it low-code. I will however add Visual Developer as one of my skills in my portfolio simply because it sounds better, but it is the same :D thanks!
Also, you could have cleaned your room before filming tho 😁
...and straighten that one lamp shade! 😆
Why is this being explained as if it's a new notion? This concept has been around since the 70s and similar tools since around that time. The idea has always been to try and simplify the process of creating apps and making it accessible to the non technically minded or capable among us. The dream of "anyone can write an app". The truth is, sometimes you need a bandaid sometimes you need stitches... I would trust myself to stick on a bandaid - might want to see a professional to get a wound treated and stitched...
Because the number of people in tech doubles every 5 years, so half the tech people you talk to know virtually nothing. They just keep reinventing the wheel and they don’t even know it :😅
It's RAD (Rapid Application Development), and it's been around since at least the early 90's.
flutterflow is VS Code 3.0 plus a built-in emulator
Abstraction is relative, not absolute. i'd argue that the distinction isn't ' high abstraction' vs 'low abstraction' but 'coarse abstraction' vs 'fine abstraction': with finer abstraction layers, each layer individually introduces a smaller amount of additional semantics and when you work through a level of abstraction (as it can't express your specific design) the effort is reduced. You also end up with greater interoperability with the parts that can be expressed with the higher level of abstraction. The layers also end up easier to understand.
but I appreciate the focus on how the tool relates the level of abstraction below it to the level above it and how that relationship and how it is modelled is the interface to the tool. I see many tools/frameworks/libraries suffer from only considering the level of abstraction the construct the only interface and the level they consume as an implementation detail making it near impossible to use the tool when the abstraction it presents can express a design (and where the layer below could but is so disconnected that you have to bypass the abstractions of the tool entirely)
- I'm a no code freelancer!
- Yeah, I am no money client then
What do you mean noboy writes a compiler anymore? FlutterFlow IS a compiler.
how much money was invested by marketing in No-Code and AI generated code?