Tony Stone here. I produced a lot of songs with Flame before his introduction into Lutheranism. Many of the things you guys are talking about are things I saw especially from Baptistic calvinists, but I feel like I got the best of Calvin and Luther by spending 3 years learning from Ray Ortlund. By God’s grace, I didn’t fall into the introspection loop that I’m hearing about, and have practically (as a pastor for 7 years) counseled from the vantage point of external and objective assurance. With regularity our church is reminded weekly at the Lord’s table about the need to look outside of themselves for assurance and how the commands and warnings are like a sword that we should hold by the handle and not the blade, where it wounds us. Still a reformed Baptist, but very grateful for all the Luther I was exposed to 10 years ago, and for my Lutheran brothers.
I'm not saddened by Flame turning to Lutheranism or for any ism but the basis upon which he is making his shift...the need to look outside. This is not good. NOT good. This is exactly what the Pharisees did. Exactly. God produces an inward work which manifests outwardly, and it's in this main aspect that I see Flame erring...I am shocked. I really looked up to Phanatik and Flame but I am not going to be a respecter of persons and allow sinful idolatry to skew my judgments. This emphasis on what is external is a contradiction of the faith, that UNITES us INTERNALLY with the Father and the Son, by the Spirit. ONE FLESH with Christ, which is affirmed not from the mere outward, ritualistic partaking of the Lord's supper but the internal, living fellowship with the Son and the Father, who dwell in our hearts, uniting us through faith, by the Spirit, together with the saints, past, present and future.
@Jacob Price flame is scared of Luther's true colors coming out. That's why he deleted my comment with links to his insane teaches, writings and quotes.
Joseph Goodroad - blessings to you brother!!! I am listening now. One of the first things he says about consubstantiation shows that he has at least studied. There are LCMS Pastors that don’t get this right! Anyway bud, it’s fun to see your name here! God bless you during your Sem experience!
I'm watching this as a Reformed Presbyterian but over the last few days I've gone into a deep delve into Lutheranism. I cannot explain to you how helpful this video was. I constantly live in fear that I'm not the elect because my affections can be so cold at times. This was so beyond encouraging.
@@TheMoreYouSew my husband is LCMS and I've always been non-denominational. I was looking into PCA churches, but I can't wrap my head around Calvinism. I'm considering LCMS, but haven't quite made the jump. The differences, specifically the Liturgy, are so foreign to me. These videos are so helpful and encouraging.
Reformed brother here. I’ve been listening to Flame since I was a kid really. Pops brought home “Our Fallen World” after hanging in Philly with the CMR guys. I listened to the entire new album line for line. The authenticity and craftsmanship was dope. Jordan, I came across your videos last year after being introduced to Lutheranism by my foreman on a job site. He invited me to his LCMS parish where my wife and I visited. I wrestled internally, yet had an awesome experience nonetheless. I heard the Gospel at the center of the sermons, met some of the coolest Saints, and felt that I gained brothers and sisters after our short stint there. I am thankful for this honest, yet gracious conversation. I am thankful for my Lutheran siblings and the perspective they bring to the Scriptures and the way that they have challenged me to think. Today I am still a Particular Baptist, but very much enjoyed this conversation. I’m glad when it’s all said and done we serve the same God, hold to the 5 Solas, and let Scripture be our unifying authority. Thanks guys...
@@Eloign Honestly usually Pentecostals don’t have very rigorous and intellectual doctrinal tradition. If you compare them to Lutherans or reformed whom have an in depth theological/philosophical tradition. Many people leave Pentecostalism because they don’t see the doctrine as intellectually rigorous enough. Granted I think holiness Pentecostals which descend more directly from Wesley are better at this. Often Pentecostal bi-laws focus mainly on personal conduct which is huge compared to a smaller section on doctrine.
Happy Presbyterian here. When you guys are expositing a lot of these texts like 2 Corinthians, it really is straight gospel. I remember being mentored in a very well known Calvinistic-baptist context, and each week I would confess the struggles I was having with lust. The response after several weeks was to essentially test the quality of my faith. Was I really converted? Did I REALLY believe?? The problem with that was I already knew the law! I knew my lust was an offense against God. But what I needed to hear (and this has been my mantra with friends of mine who struggle with lust) is the gospel. The human problem is that we have not loved the Lord our God with ALL our hearts, ALL our soul, and ALL our mind. The solution to that is God Himself doing that on my behalf! I needed to know that Christ forgave even my sin of lust! That realization really has been life-changing for me.
I'm a "Reformed-ish" Baptist and Calvinist but I have to say that this conversation was soooooo good and definitely had me and my husband stopping the video and talking through this like, "YESSSS!!! WE HAVE TOTALLY THOUGHT THIS TOO." Love you, brother and thankful for taking the time to explain where you are at (also appreciate Jordan Cooper as well!) 🙂
@@oseasgabrieldeabreumacedo8222 no I am from the USA. Do I look Brazilian? *lol* My niece married a Brazilian and lives down there and I do have Puerto Rican/Italian/Spanish/German/Russian Jewish ancestry but not Brazilian! 😀 I looked you up on fb and found we have many mutual Lutheran friends so I sent you a friend request 😄
So you're planning on spending eternity in hell with all denominations? You name yourself after a MAN who introduce his own doctrine. You're not a Christian but a Lutheran.
@@justkeepnitreal4198 lol. you should research how the name Lutheran came to be. The actual name was Evangelical Catholic.... the name Lutheran was an insult that stuck. So you might want to find an accurate insult.
@@WittenbergProjectMartin Lutheran is the founder of the Lutheran church out of the reformation movement. Now show me a Lutheran Christian in the scriptures!! What scriptures can I read that would lead me to be a Lutheran? Like I said that name came from a man not God.
justkeep'n itreal sigh. You’re judging a group of believers not based on what they believe but a label put on them by Rome. Show me the word “trinity” in bible? Even Judaism had names for groups of believers, Sadducee, Pharisee, etc. it’s about belief, not a label. Mormons call themselves Christian but their beliefs aren’t biblical. Jus consider it, please
Great video. The distinction between Law and Gospel is the KEY of rightly understanding the holy Scripture. It will spare the Christian the swing between pride and despair. I also came from a Calvinistic background and appreciate the discussion about the difference between Calvin and Lutheran doctrine. This type of teaching just helps confirm my Lutheran faith, for that I'm grateful. Thank you and may God's peace be with you both.
All Christianity is based on the misogyny, racism, and homophobia of the Iron Age biblical text, and belief in a genocidal god that advocated for the rape of women and children, and murdered the entire population of the world in a petulant fit of rage, except for Noah and his incestuious family, to show his love. Despicable.
Great job guys! I really enjoyed this. I’m 51 years old & have been a Calvinist my whole life, but currently visiting a Lutheran church (contemporary service). I think I may actually become a Lutheran & it freaks me out to even say that. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Keeping it real down here in TX...God is good! Amen
Have you checked out Bryan Wolfmueller's channel? He's a pastor of a Lutheran church in Texas with a lot of great theological questions answered on UA-cam
This is the Apologist from Christcentric, I love Luther and his legacy but I’ve never being compelled to join you guys because I havent being convinced but I support my Lutheran brothers. I would love to pick both of your brains. Let us know when you guys are in the DC area.
I wish you would do more conversations like this. This is so informative and answered so many questions I had. I really appreciate you taking the time to record and share your conversation. Some of the points you addressed had been very troubling to me. And now I know it was because I didn’t have a full understanding of the text. Thank you.
I have enjoyed listening to Dr. Cooper since 2013. The video was very illuminating, clear and pastoral. I've found Dr. Cooper's teachings helpful in bringing nuance to my own understanding of scripture. The chemistry between these two men made the video very engaging. Thank you Dr. Cooper and Flame.
I have been a lifelong Lutheran since my high school days and glad for it! It has been more than fifty years since my confirmation and I do not envision turning away from it. The Lord has awesome plans involving our salvation and church to which He intends we belong! I for one am surely glad and lucky for it…!
Flame...this is the first I have ever seen you on youtube. I am a conservative white 59 yr. old Lutheran lady and I just LOVE you and your style immediately. Ha Bless you.
A brother who was very influential in my salvation. Preaching the gospel to me and showing me the love of Christ. First gave me a flame album in 2004. Being from Philly and in the middle of my State property/ Roc-a-fella era of Rap. I thought it was the corniest rap I ever heard and threw the CD 💿 in the 🗑 trash !! A couple of years later in 2006 when I finally got saved. I went back and started listening to flame again and he became my favorite Christian rapper. And I was listening to a lot of Shai Linne and lamp mode back then too. But flame was the first one who helped me understand limited atonement in his first album. Listening to that it finally clicked and I excepted the doctrine of particular redemption for the first time. Now come on flame 🔥 come on brother !! You mean to tell me that 18 years in the reformed church and you never read or listen to R.C. Sproul’s “What Is Reformed Theology” or back then the book was still called “Grace Unknown”. The very beginning of the book. In the section on sola Fide/ Faith Alone. One of the first things RC Sproul talks about is Luthers reformation breakthrough. An alien righteousness, Extra Nos, and simul iustus et peccator, simultaneously being saint and sinner at the same time. I knew about that stuff my first year being saved as a reformed Calvinist. Because I liked that doctrine so much I went on to read more stuff from Luther “the bondage of the will”, “The Augsburg apology”, “The smackald articles”, The whole book of Concorde. Philipp Melanchthon’s loci communis. Gerhard o forde "The Theology Of the Cross" And my favorite Lutheran book by CFW Walther “the proper distinction between law and Gospel”. Martin Chemnitz “examination of the council of Trent” and “the two natures of Christ”. I just find it hard to believe that you never knew about this stuff in the Reformd circles. It was one of the first things I learned being catholic, evangelical, and reformed !! I read more of Luther back then when I first got saved before I even opened John Calvin’s “Institutes of the Christian religion”. It sounds like to me you were in a very very weird reformed Baptist Church from the things you are saying here on this video. And I just feel bad for you that you were in such a weird church and never got none of this foundational stuff, if you really are telling the truth and never even heard of “extra NOS” your whole time being reformed. I really don’t believe you.. I think you are exaggerating if I’m wrong please let me know? As for me and I thought the same for all Reformd people. The first thing I learned was Justification by Faith Alone, a historical objective redemption, “Alien 👽 Righteousness”, that is found “Extra Nos” outside of our selves, and the proper distinction between the law and the gospel. I learned all that stuff in the first book I ever read from RC Sproul called “what is reformed theology”. And the different views of the Real Presence between Luther and Calvin on in the sacraments. My first year of being saved as a Reformed Calvinist. That’s why I find it hard to believe you never heard of none of the stuff it’s foundational the fundamental to Reformd theology. We are “Catholic” because of Athanasius, Anselm, and Augustine, “evangelical” because of Luther, Philipp Melanchthon, and Chemnitz, reformed because of Calvin, John Knox, Theodore Baeza, and of course RC Sproul lol 😂 we are just dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants !! I thought everybody who was reform held to the orthodox historical views of the church.
Yo this is hitting home in so many ways for me. I go to a reformed church... i love the people there but there are things that have never settled well with me in regards to reformed theology and the implications of that theology and its outworking in the church. They touch so much on this points in this conversation. I'm not sure i'm settled on Lutheran theology and indeed its still pretty foreign to me but to me it seems much more of a consistent framework.
As someone who is Reformed there is a big difference between Reformed guys from Westminster Seminary California and Reformed from other Reformed Seminaries. At Westminster there is a strong emphasis on law/gospel and justification by faith alone.
I was raised Lutheran and now attend a Reformed church. In our liturgy we hear the law, followed by confession of sin, and then our Pastor reads scripture of assurance that we have been forgiven. This is very much like the Lutheran church- Law and Gospel. We look to what Christ accomplished on the cross for our assurance. We do not look within for assurance. We know we are both sinner and saints and that sanctification is a life long process. Our salvation assurance always comes from what Christ did to redeem us. We see the law as a guide to Godly living and know there is no more condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. If we confess our sin He is faithful to forgive us. I think at least my reformed church, the URCANA, is misrepresented in that we do not look inward for fruit to have assurance. We look to the cross.
The problem is that Calvinism is being represented by Baptists online so everyone thinks that's what it is. True traditional Reformed theology is much closer to Lutheranism than Baptist theology.
I'm reformed and I've never heard anyone say to look to your good works for assurance? I've heard the expression that we're "saved by faith alone, but not by an alone faith." But that's never been said in the context of assurance that I've heard and anyone who believes in sanctification should be able to agree with that. The law/gospel distinction is actually one thing that drew me to reformed theology as well and totally rocked my world. I don't think that's a uniquely Lutheran distinction given how much I've heard it taught and referenced in reformed circles. Overall great discussion 👌 I'll never be able to become a lutheran for a number of reasons but I have so much appreciation for Lutheran theology. After all, I was listening to Rod Rosenbladt when it really hit me like a ton of bricks that Jesus paid it all.
Heh, I'm with you. I find myself continually amazed when I hear Lutherans say the same things I read in the Westminster Confession and here in my Reformed church, and then they turn around and sincerely act like Calvinists don't teach those things. It is mind boggling. I get a reformed person holding a high view of Luther looking at lutheranism and being shocked at the differences, but I expected that Lutheran's would have to deal with the same sort of strawmen Calvinists hear all the time and was surprised to see Lutherans echo many of the same strawmen at Calvinists.
The probability here is that you’ve heard similar words or phrases with different meanings. Never heard it any other way and find that most Calvinist doctrine is a result of enthusiasm not sola scriptura.
Not all reformed preach like that, but some do preach yes we must look to Christ but some especially the Puritans are so focused in false faith and fruits and that make people doubt, have ever heard of Edwards religious affection book? It show exactly what I'm saying
@ Dr. Jordan B Cooper 52:09 Literally the same thing happened to me when I read those texts and eventually just got tired of explaining away falling away.
Yes! I was a big Paul Washer/MacArthur fan neo-calvinist with leanings towards methodism. I became a mess and almost lost my faith. Thanks to Lutheran pastors like you, I became confessional. Your take on Washer and his likes was crucial episodes for me in my struggle! I was stunned to discover that when they leave the efficacy of the sacraments behind, they find ways to replace them, like Washers "go home and pray until God does a supernatural work in you"-replacement for looking to your baptism, which is no better than The Sinners prayer he is so against. So thank you Dr. Cooper for being public and out there. You are important in this, like so many other Lutheran ministers that joins the online media to tell about what this really is about!
''I was stunned to discover that when they leave the efficacy of the sacraments behind, they find ways to replace them''. EXACTLY. Welcome to lutheranism, friend.
I just started listening to Flame's music. Fantastic stuff! He makes actual diss tracks against false doctrine. Great to listen to. I can't help but think Luther himself would have liked to play some of Flame's songs for Calvin if given the opportunity.
Beautiful!! Great Conversation Brothers, I'm very interested in learning more from the Lutheran side!! This kind of reminds me of Da Truth and Ravi, so much knowledge and wisdom in such a short amount of time.
@@DrJordanBCooper thanks for the response Dr. Cooper. I'm hoping that will change. These are good conversation to have. I'm am thankful for this discussion and hope there are more in the future. Do you have other videos discussing the differences between the two? I am reformed baptist and have been for some time. I do believe the Doctrines of Grace are coherent and logical due to the very biblical fibers that clothe the doctrines. I think traditions can play are large part of our thinking and behaviors but the conclusion I came to from the DoG is more security in Christ and not less. He is magnified more within this system and not less. God bless and hope to see more videos like this.
@@cheapseats7366: I would challenge you to think about exactly how Limited Atonement can provide more security, and not less. How can one ever truly know objectively (not simply by looking at subjective, fallible, internal evidence) that Christ died for ME if he only died for some people? How can you ever know absolutely?
@@jeffnickel8272 Hey Jeff I hope all is well. Simply put God has made those promises for me. I can't speak for anyone else but myself. If a person tells me Christ is sufficient than I believe them until otherwise. I think Dr. Copper went over that. Spurgeon also spoke of the same saying had he'd known there would be no need to preach and of course he doesnt so preached. As someone that holds to limited atonement, by the word of God, I am declared by that atonement secure and safe on that Rock which is Christ the Lord. Limited atonement simply put is antithetical to universalism and declares only certain people, by the grace of God will be saved. LA puts a huge emphasis on the saving and secure grace of God and doesn't stifle it.
My ex pastor and the LCMS had me constantly questioning my salvation as opposed to my reformed brothers. So I went the opposite way of these two. There is a lot of good theology within Lutheranism and also a lot that is wrong. For instance salvation by water baptism, infant baptism and losing salvation. Scripture clearly opposes these three stances and I couldn’t go on pretending they were okay. An individual’s salvation is their own and not by anything they’ve done. It is a free gift, from God, and cannot be taken away. God bless you both and all of you fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. I’m happy, content and very much at peace with where I’m at now.
A curiosity for Dr. Cooper, maybe you've answered but I missed it. When you passed from Reformed theology to Lutheranism, did the AALC require you to follow some Lutheran seminary to be ordained, or did they simply "count" the studies you did in a Reformed seminary?
This was an amazing conversation. As soon as i listened to extra nos i youtubed lutheranism and this guy came up haha. I am a person who is unsure if I am becomming more aware of my sin or if I am off target so to speak. I never know if my awareness of sin is increasing or if ive fallen off the wagon. I think maybe for me its a little of both. I do compare myself to my prior years when i was in the word like crazy and now its a little spotty. Hard to not hold yourself to external standards. Def will be interested in reading the Great Divide. You guys should do more of these talks. I knew a video was comming soon is said Flame needs to explain himself haha.
Man, i love my man, now Dr Cooper. Ive followed him for years, I mean from his 3rd video upload, years, serious and incredibly diligent. So encouraged to see guys my age, "millenials" becoming honest bonafide scholars. Who, in a few more years with be sited in scholarly works and college papers. Its crazy how long I have followed flame and dr cooper to see them conecting and building together. Bless the Holy Ghosts leading.
Confessions it’s true God will never lose any of his sheep. But he knows those who are his, how do you know? Many have abandoned the faith and have wandered off. Scripture history reveals this in many places. What about Ananias and saphira? If you lived around them at that time you would have considered them to have been believers. Or even Judas, he was given power along with the other disciples to perform miracles and heal people yet in the end lost his salvation. Everyday we know we are kept by the Lord’s mercy. We live in Godly fear and sober faith because he has the power to harden us if we play around with our salvation by living in sin.
Villarreal Marta Thanks for your flawed and non-Sequitur argument. There are too many wholes and incoherencies in what you wrote. What is your point? What is worse, you didn’t even understand the question I asked or why I asked it. Everyone wants to be a teacher. Okay the genius. I’ll indulge you on at least one of your incoherent statement. How do you know Ananias and Saphira were not believers? Because they lied post salvation and were killed for it? Are you saved? And, have you lied after being saved? So just because God chose to keep you alive after lying and take them, that means you are saved and they are not? Your arguments are not consistent.
Confessions incoherence? “Wholes”? Look I’m not here to put you down or try to sound superior. I consider myself the chief of sinners. I’m merely trying to help you see that a person can fall away from faith. Even all of Paul’s letters have this warning in them. Otherwise there would be no need to warn anybody.
Confessions oh, also I noticed you thought I was commenting on your post, which is not true. I was commenting to the individual who wrote that God will lose none of his sheep. Which is true he won’t.
Until my morning reading and study this morning in John 10, I was shakey on what Limited Atonement actually meant. But practically, Christs' atonement is "limited" in that only those whom the Father has appointed unto eternal life will be atoned for, efficaciously. It is limited to [only those whom].
10:02 "Your Faith has to be found on something objective." Hebrews 11:1 says Faith is the objective thing we have. ὑπόστασις assurance: a support, base or foundation
Faith is of no use if it is in the wrong thing, in fact it would then be detrimental. Our faith derives its value from the soundness/truth/sureness of the thing believed in. The Hebrews chapter makes it plain that it is faith in Christ, not faith as a human attribute, which saves us. It's perhaps a subtle but nonetheless crucial distinction. Faith in Christ alone; not faith in our faith in Christ :-)
Enjoy your stuff brother,Know any good Lutheran UA-camrs or Mabye books like a lot of folks here I’m coming from a Calvinistic background and have had almost exactly the same struggles and I’m really interested in learning more 🙌🏼?
We look not only within, but at our behavior which is on the outside. In such a case we may need to experience transformation or more than likely reformation. Reformation deals with amendment of life and a deeper work of sanctification which deals with separation of ourselves from certain known evils.
I’m encouraged yet have so many questions as a “Calvinist”. I’m a pretty yes/no, black/white, etc. so if someone who was once Calvinist, now are Lutheran, are they holding to a Arminian? No longer believe in election? Irresistible grace? Totally Depraved? Can you be Reformed without holding to the TULIP? I’m encouraged yet a bit confused. I went from Word OF FAITH, to CALVINISM, now hearing their may be Huge errors in what I hold to within reformed theology. PLEASE SOMEONE EXPLAIN😢😢😢
Arminianism is the opposite error from Calvinist Double Predestination. Lutherans believe that if anyone is saved, it is purely by grace, and God gets all the credit. If anyone is condemned, it is purely their own fault, and God gets none of the blame. Then Lutherans just stop, rather than try to solve the equation where Scripture doesn't solve it. Arminians make the mistake as assigning both outcomes to man's decision. Calvinists make the mistake of trying to solve the equation by assigning both outcomes to God's desire. Irresistable Grace: Lutherans say No. See above paragraph Totally Depraved: Lutherans say Yes. As to how much of TULIP is required to be a Reformed, that varies. Many Reformed refer to themselves as "4 point Calvinists" or "3 point Calvinists." Others say that it's all 5 or nothing at all.
To what extent would you agree or disagree with this statement: God saved us that we might obey him in holiness. The purpose of the gospel was to make us holy, and so the gospel was given that we might obey the law of Christ
I saw Flame at Boyce College after chapel one night. I never thought much of it until Flame released his new album (probably because I am Classical Arminian) until I heard about the scattered TULIPS on the non-Calvinist Baptist end of the internet. It certainly has been interesting to see the YRR gradually collapse.
Bro! Anthony Hokema in his book "the christian looks at himself" says all of this and yet he is still a Calvinists and holds to the elect and still throws away self justification. This is so crazy when people look in other places to find the truth that has been there all along.
So would you say that those who are saved/will be are saved by irresistible grace but those who aren't/won't aren't because they have resisted His grace? Or to say it another way, are you saying that God's grace is both irresistible and resistible?
Grace and peace brothers , I 'm elias from Block Huggers ministries . I love this dialogue I just wish you had some other brothers from the other view present pushing back as well. Me and a few bros had bible study tonight. If God does the saving and the sealing ( Eph 1:3- 14) Sealed to the day of Redemption. How does a seal blood bought believer walk away . Even in the O.T where it talks about You will keep my commandments. I will put my Spirit in you and you will keep my Statues etc. Jer 31:31 , Ezekiel 36 , John 3 :3 . Born from above . If its God doing the saving how is it not God doing the keeping ?? John 6: 37- 40, 43-47
Baron Klaif We Lutherans do believe it is God doing the keeping too. We say if someone ends up in heaven, the glory is to God alone from start to finish. But on the other hand, if someone goes to hell, it isn’t because of God choosing to leave them in their sins or pass them by, but it’s solely because they resisted God’s grace. This is what they were talking about in the video that there is a tension that is taught in scripture, and that it doesn’t fit a logical formula like Calvinism does.
@@bethanyann1060 Good morning sis, that's not what they communicated they said if someone walks away then they walk away. But How can a regenerate sheep who hears Jesus voice John 10 stray forever . When Jesus clearly says He gives us External life . "ETERNAL" is Not eternal even if we lose it 9 Billion yrs from now . Eternal is FOREVER
Baron Klaif The Lutheran position is that one can be regenerate but not elect. So those passages that you were pointing to they would say that those refer only to the elect
I too was a convert from wesleyanism, and now I'm a fort wayne seminarian getting ready to go on vicarage. There was so much freedom in understanding Sola fide- Justification by faith, as the Bible states it and not as I was taught it growing up.
To put it succinctly every "denomination" is an offshoot of an offshoot. Split after split after split. There were only 12 original disciples. Ask yourself this important question
Hello Jordan, what do you think of Barth's doctrine of Election in comparison to Calvins? For Barth, election seems to be 'extra nos' unlike with Calvin, thus providing a greater deal of assurance to the believer.
Hey, just as a heads up, Dr. Cooper regularly asks for questions for his Q&A programs on his social media accounts. If you ask there you'll likely get an answer.
Have a question. Do most Lutheran's baptize infants? As well as believe that the Lord's Supper involves the actual body and blood of Christ? Vs just represention?
We will baptize the infants of believers. This involves making sure the parents will teach their children the faith as they grow. We believe that when Christ instituted the supper he meant the words he spoke - this is my body... this is my blood.
@@berniepfitzner487 but the baptism of the infants don't guarantee them salvation? Also isn't it important for them to act in their personal faith? When Christ said that, do you not think he meant that as a represention?
Look at how Christ interacts with the children. He never turns them away. "The Kingdom of God belongs to such as these." We teach baptized children the commandments, we call on them to repent, we teach them to pray, we teach them that they 100% are saved by Christ. I dont think Jesus mentions the bread & wine merely representing his body & blood. John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you: 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh & drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
im a calvinist and never heard of those things about testing our faith. I believe Jesus when he says my sheep hear my voice and they follow me and i give them life.
Terrific conversation! Hits on so many things I experienced coming in to Lutheran thought. I find Calvinists ignorantly thinking they have a monopoly on monergism and their magisterial use of reason particularly irksome.
It helped when I realized that baptism is *not* a good work of man but a gift of God. We *receive* baptism and its promised benefits (Mk 16:16, 1 Pt 3:21). Since babies are in the same predicament as adults (original sin, total depravity) they need baptism too.
This verse alone gives me comfort and back up so many others I. The Bible says that Saints are saved, eternally. “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.” 1 John 2:19 ESV I find it so strange that some find comfort in Lutheranism, where I found it works based, and find Calvinism hard to accept where I found comfort. Daily repentance sounds very works based by the way Lutherans talk about it. I believe repentance is ongoing by the minute, but has nothing to do with “staying saved”. That’s not right. We should rest in the gospel, not try to work for our salvation.
This verse alone gives me comfort and back up so many others I. The Bible that Saints are saved, eternally. “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.” 1 John 2:19 ESV I find it so strange that some find comfort in Lutheranism, where I found it works based, and find Calvinism hard to accept where I found comfort. Daily repentance sounds very works based by the way Lutherans talk about it. I believe repentance is ongoing by the minute, but has nothing to do with “staying saved”. That’s not right. We should rest in the gospel, not try to work for our salvation.
Guys, I haven’t finished the whole interview, but Paul goes out of his way to make sure you know that Christ didn’t die just for the sins of the church he was writing to but for the sins of the whole world. The Holy Spirit anticipated Calvin before he ever came on the scene. Anticipated and cut them off at the pass regarding this limited atonement. You might listen to William Lane Craig who is an apologist on that subject.
Question...actually 2 questions 1. I have considered changing some of my theology. In regards to election can a person who is not elect be a believer at some point? 2. Also you believe that every person who is elect will end up in heaven...right? In Christ,
Life is already too difficult to torture one's self over the inability to follow the Law at the level that it is defined in the Sermon on the Mount. It is a cruel and ugly predicament, that one has to be crushed to receive forgiveness for not doing the impossible. And of course this is Love??! and Good?? an Ugly Truth.
Reformed Presbyterians people do look to the sacraments for assurance. Although I would make a caveat that limited atonement does not draw away from passages like Hebrews. There is such a thing of Christians that trample on the blood that was sacrificed for them. Calvin was aware of these verses lol
The beginning: “It’s Flame!! He must be interviewing a Lutheran pastor and getting their views on things” Later on... “Wait, what’s going on? “ Later on... “What? No , am I hearing things right?” Midpoint: “Nooooooooooo” Hahahaha it’s still all good. Same team just different numbered jerseys (Eph 4:3)
Im in the middle...im staying there and fully appreciate where flame is. When it comes to church discipline ive never seen Matt 18 followed. I think in the situation spoke on i believe it depends on the sin specifically. Why it was brought to the church leaders in the first place if the person repented to the individual it shouldnt have went any further unless of course the person was a part of the church leadership. To vague really but it doesn't sou d like it was handled biblically. Enjoyed the co conversation. Would have liked if they went deeper on thier beliefs on sacraments and how it ties into salvation.
It is easy to fail when it comes to Matthew 18. Just look at how easily gossip spreads. Frequently, we don't even realize we're doing it. There are also instances where someone is sinning publicly even though the people who are being sinned against don't necessarily care. Discipline still needs to be applied so that the rest of the congregation isn't being led astray.
This is a reply that I made to someone else's comment, but I thought to repost it as there are disconcerting things that I've seen blossom out of the ungracious tone Flame takes towards Calvinism and Calvinists in general, on his latest project. As it pertains to Flame suggesting that Calvinism promotes looking inwardly for assurance of salvation, I responded... *"It was almost as if he was projecting his own struggles unto reformed theology as a whole.* *But I don't think that those struggles are exclusive to Calvinism, but are consistent with the ebbs and flows of unbelief, (as it pertains to trusting God's promises), that all Christians struggle with.* *So let me first say that I will be in prayer for Flame, as there seems to be some major issues going on with his lack of wisdom in handling his switch in doctrine. I think that lack of wisdom may be indicative of deeper struggles. For that reason, I was just thankful that the brother hadn't left the faith, but was just leaving Calvinism.* *In a nutshell, I was confused as to why he approached his critique of Calvinism so abrasively, and in doing so, risked alienating his brothers and sisters in Christ who have been supporting his efforts for 9 albums now, and over 15 years. Where's the wisdom in that?* *It's almost as if he believes that Calvinism is heretical. Anything short of believing that, should've been handled more delicately so as to promote unity and avoid causing division amongst the Saints.* *In other words, there will always be differences amongst the body as it pertains to non-essential doctrines. We don't beat each other up over these things. Instead we walk in the joy of unity in agreement over the most important thing.* *But as it stands, I've already seen tribal skirmishes, based on denomination and doctrine, that the ungracious tone of his project promotes.* *Not to mention, that his caricature of Calvinism was alarming. It's as if he never fully understood it himself. Which in hindsight, could've led to some of the issues he was having with looking inwardly."* I'm not sure of this, but I believe when Flame was still with Cross Movement, They required for him to have his material vetted by church elders prior to release. I wonder if this is happening now within his Lutheran fellowship? And if it is, I wonder if they were ok with the tone of the project?
@@Mygoalwogel "Calvinist" is a pretty fuzzy word and seems to mean different things to different people. Within the Reformed camp, there are many who make a distinction between a 'Calvinist' as one who narrowly agrees with Calvin over soteriology, and 'Reformed' as those who are confessional and hold to either the Westminster Standards or Three Forms of Unity (sometimes also the London Baptist Confession), are Covenantal (often including holding to covenant baptism, hence excluding even Reformed baptists from being Reformed), and of course agree with Calvin on soteriology. I agree with Hans that MacArthur is not Reformed; he is just a Calvinist in that he holds to the soteriology but he rejects covenant theology and is not confessional (and he's a baptist). Piper is also in this camp, AFAIKT. Someone like White and Durbin would be Reformed unless rejection of covenant baptism should exclude them from that camp (they hold to the London Baptist Confession and its modified covenantalism). People like Bahnsen and Sproul would be Reformed in every sense.
@@Mygoalwogel I had to look up Montanism but I’m not sure that response aligns with what I’m asking. Can God enlightened a person’s understanding of Him beyond the text not to form a new doctrine but to better comprehend who He is or are we to suggest that what we don’t know should be accepted as a mystery. Then what would be the reasoning behind verses like Matthew 7:7-11? I’m asking in earnest btw mainly because I too have walked back from a Calvinistic perspective.
@@themillersbuiltupontherock3742 That's refreshing. I don't know about "beyond the text." But certainly there are those who "eat the scroll" and let it upset their stomach. They teach even familiar children's Bible stories with more profound insight, crushing Law, and high-enducing sweetest Gospel than I can draw out. Bryan Wolfmueller comes to mind. When discussing contemporary issues like evolution he's naive to a fault. But when he teaches from the Scripture he tears down and builds up in ways my own personal reading can't do for me.
You're saying context has to be 'read into' the epistles first (8:45 - 9:00). Please explain how this can be, especially in light of 2 Corinthians 11:3.
Love your ministry for years Flame. At the 23 min mark you begin to discuss Mathew 7:15-23. And your explanation is sound that the context is about false teachers / prophets. Correct. Then your guest goes on to ONLY apply it to speakers/teachers. Missing Jesus’ application. As you know scripture interpreted itself. The next verse says it also applies to ALL HEARERS. Who do or don’t do. Or who do or don’t bear fruit. NOTE: who hears and does.... Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Please show me where I am incorrect.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Tony Stone here. I produced a lot of songs with Flame before his introduction into Lutheranism. Many of the things you guys are talking about are things I saw especially from Baptistic calvinists, but I feel like I got the best of Calvin and Luther by spending 3 years learning from Ray Ortlund. By God’s grace, I didn’t fall into the introspection loop that I’m hearing about, and have practically (as a pastor for 7 years) counseled from the vantage point of external and objective assurance. With regularity our church is reminded weekly at the Lord’s table about the need to look outside of themselves for assurance and how the commands and warnings are like a sword that we should hold by the handle and not the blade, where it wounds us. Still a reformed Baptist, but very grateful for all the Luther I was exposed to 10 years ago, and for my Lutheran brothers.
I'm not saddened by Flame turning to Lutheranism or for any ism but the basis upon which he is making his shift...the need to look outside. This is not good. NOT good. This is exactly what the Pharisees did. Exactly. God produces an inward work which manifests outwardly, and it's in this main aspect that I see Flame erring...I am shocked. I really looked up to Phanatik and Flame but I am not going to be a respecter of persons and allow sinful idolatry to skew my judgments.
This emphasis on what is external is a contradiction of the faith, that UNITES us INTERNALLY with the Father and the Son, by the Spirit. ONE FLESH with Christ, which is affirmed not from the mere outward, ritualistic partaking of the Lord's supper but the internal, living fellowship with the Son and the Father, who dwell in our hearts, uniting us through faith, by the Spirit, together with the saints, past, present and future.
@Jacob Price flame is scared of Luther's true colors coming out. That's why he deleted my comment with links to his insane teaches, writings and quotes.
Thank you sir for your contribution to CHH...
I'll be honest, this is the first hour-long Lutheran theological discussion video with a rapper in it I've ever watched, lol.
Joseph Goodroad - blessings to you brother!!! I am listening now. One of the first things he says about consubstantiation shows that he has at least studied. There are LCMS Pastors that don’t get this right! Anyway bud, it’s fun to see your name here! God bless you during your Sem experience!
Hi Joe
Right?! It's great to see! 🙏
Yeah, I think this is the only one in existence.
I'm pretty sure this is the ONLY hour-long Lutheran theological discussion video with a rapper that exists lol
I'm watching this as a Reformed Presbyterian but over the last few days I've gone into a deep delve into Lutheranism. I cannot explain to you how helpful this video was. I constantly live in fear that I'm not the elect because my affections can be so cold at times. This was so beyond encouraging.
updates?
@jendiysit do you have any updates?
@@christy31180 yes! I became Lutheran 🤣
@@TheMoreYouSew my husband is LCMS and I've always been non-denominational. I was looking into PCA churches, but I can't wrap my head around Calvinism. I'm considering LCMS, but haven't quite made the jump. The differences, specifically the Liturgy, are so foreign to me. These videos are so helpful and encouraging.
@@redeemedzoomer6053 you have your answer
My wife and I just visited a Lutheran church this Sunday and it is such a refresher. Gospel centered, Christ centered and God centered.
Reformed brother here. I’ve been listening to Flame since I was a kid really. Pops brought home “Our Fallen World” after hanging in Philly with the CMR guys. I listened to the entire new album line for line. The authenticity and craftsmanship was dope. Jordan, I came across your videos last year after being introduced to Lutheranism by my foreman on a job site. He invited me to his LCMS parish where my wife and I visited. I wrestled internally, yet had an awesome experience nonetheless. I heard the Gospel at the center of the sermons, met some of the coolest Saints, and felt that I gained brothers and sisters after our short stint there. I am thankful for this honest, yet gracious conversation. I am thankful for my Lutheran siblings and the perspective they bring to the Scriptures and the way that they have challenged me to think. Today I am still a Particular Baptist, but very much enjoyed this conversation. I’m glad when it’s all said and done we serve the same God, hold to the 5 Solas, and let Scripture be our unifying authority. Thanks guys...
I appreciate this so much that I'm crying. This former Pentecostal and ex-charismatic is deeply grateful
You sound pretty charismatic to me... xD sorry ai had to. God bless!
lots of solid Pentecostals out there sis. Usually the abuses are what turn people away not the actual doctrine. Sorry if you had a bad experience
@@Eloign Honestly usually Pentecostals don’t have very rigorous and intellectual doctrinal tradition. If you compare them to Lutherans or reformed whom have an in depth theological/philosophical tradition. Many people leave Pentecostalism because they don’t see the doctrine as intellectually rigorous enough. Granted I think holiness Pentecostals which descend more directly from Wesley are better at this. Often Pentecostal bi-laws focus mainly on personal conduct which is huge compared to a smaller section on doctrine.
@@obscuredictionary3263 I agree, but I'm not abandoning my brothers to the wolves, I will fight from within.
Happy Presbyterian here. When you guys are expositing a lot of these texts like 2 Corinthians, it really is straight gospel. I remember being mentored in a very well known Calvinistic-baptist context, and each week I would confess the struggles I was having with lust. The response after several weeks was to essentially test the quality of my faith. Was I really converted? Did I REALLY believe??
The problem with that was I already knew the law! I knew my lust was an offense against God. But what I needed to hear (and this has been my mantra with friends of mine who struggle with lust) is the gospel. The human problem is that we have not loved the Lord our God with ALL our hearts, ALL our soul, and ALL our mind. The solution to that is God Himself doing that on my behalf! I needed to know that Christ forgave even my sin of lust! That realization really has been life-changing for me.
Thank you for this comment
Try reading A.W. Pink's book Practical Christianity.
I'm a "Reformed-ish" Baptist and Calvinist but I have to say that this conversation was soooooo good and definitely had me and my husband stopping the video and talking through this like, "YESSSS!!! WE HAVE TOTALLY THOUGHT THIS TOO." Love you, brother and thankful for taking the time to explain where you are at (also appreciate Jordan Cooper as well!) 🙂
I'm a new Lutheran who came out of Calvinism myself 😄 Love this!!!
Great! Are you from Brazil?
@@oseasgabrieldeabreumacedo8222 no I am from the USA. Do I look Brazilian? *lol* My niece married a Brazilian and lives down there and I do have Puerto Rican/Italian/Spanish/German/Russian Jewish ancestry but not Brazilian! 😀 I looked you up on fb and found we have many mutual Lutheran friends so I sent you a friend request 😄
Welcome, Brenda.
Also I was a Calvinist. Now I've been a Lutheran for three years. And I intend to join at the Concordia Seminary in Brazil.
Welcome.
So you're planning on spending eternity in hell with all denominations? You name yourself after a MAN who introduce his own doctrine. You're not a Christian but a Lutheran.
@@justkeepnitreal4198 lol. you should research how the name Lutheran came to be. The actual name was Evangelical Catholic.... the name Lutheran was an insult that stuck. So you might want to find an accurate insult.
@@WittenbergProjectMartin Lutheran is the founder of the Lutheran church out of the reformation movement. Now show me a Lutheran Christian in the scriptures!! What scriptures can I read that would lead me to be a Lutheran? Like I said that name came from a man not God.
justkeep'n itreal sigh. You’re judging a group of believers not based on what they believe but a label put on them by Rome. Show me the word “trinity” in bible? Even Judaism had names for groups of believers, Sadducee, Pharisee, etc. it’s about belief, not a label. Mormons call themselves Christian but their beliefs aren’t biblical. Jus consider it, please
Great video. The distinction between Law and Gospel is the KEY of rightly understanding the holy Scripture. It will spare the Christian the swing between pride and despair. I also came from a Calvinistic background and appreciate the discussion about the difference between Calvin and Lutheran doctrine. This type of teaching just helps confirm my Lutheran faith, for that I'm grateful. Thank you and may God's peace be with you both.
All Christianity is based on the misogyny, racism, and homophobia of the Iron Age biblical text, and belief in a genocidal god that advocated for the rape of women and children, and murdered the entire population of the world in a petulant fit of rage, except for Noah and his incestuious family, to show his love. Despicable.
@@richardwebb2348 ok
@@richardwebb2348 , thanks, pal, you've shown us the way out of our captivity. Ever so grateful to you.
Just so great to see him becoming Lutheran, great Job Rev. Cooper! I am so down for 1h Calvin ranting.
Great job guys! I really enjoyed this. I’m 51 years old & have been a Calvinist my whole life, but currently visiting a Lutheran church (contemporary service). I think I may actually become a Lutheran & it freaks me out to even say that. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Keeping it real down here in TX...God is good! Amen
Danny, how is it going?
Go LCMS
Have you checked out Bryan Wolfmueller's channel? He's a pastor of a Lutheran church in Texas with a lot of great theological questions answered on UA-cam
This is the Apologist from Christcentric, I love Luther and his legacy but I’ve never being compelled to join you guys because I havent being convinced but I support my Lutheran brothers. I would love to pick both of your brains. Let us know when you guys are in the DC area.
I’m in the DC Area.......I am a dispensational fundamentalists but I enjoy learning from believers of different persuasions
@Christcentric any updates? Looking for interaction between reformed brethren and Lutheran brethren.
@@jthwagi nope, Flame and Jordan never responded
I wish you would do more conversations like this. This is so informative and answered so many questions I had. I really appreciate you taking the time to record and share your conversation. Some of the points you addressed had been very troubling to me. And now I know it was because I didn’t have a full understanding of the text. Thank you.
I have been reformed for 10 years but within the last year have had my doubts. Appreciate the charitable convo.
I have enjoyed listening to Dr. Cooper since 2013. The video was very illuminating, clear and pastoral. I've found Dr. Cooper's teachings helpful in bringing nuance to my own understanding of scripture. The chemistry between these two men made the video very engaging. Thank you Dr. Cooper and Flame.
I have been a lifelong Lutheran since my high school days and glad for it!
It has been more than fifty years since my confirmation and I do not envision turning away from it.
The Lord has awesome plans involving our salvation and church to which He intends we belong! I for one am surely glad and lucky for it…!
Flame...this is the first I have ever seen you on youtube. I am a conservative white 59 yr. old Lutheran lady and I just LOVE you and your style immediately. Ha Bless you.
My face when this came up in my feed today: 😮
Gar Same 😄
I'm glad I found this. I worry im not good enough although I have faith. I wonder if im doing enough and the right things.
A brother who was very influential in my salvation. Preaching the gospel to me and showing me the love of Christ. First gave me a flame album in 2004. Being from Philly and in the middle of my State property/ Roc-a-fella era of Rap. I thought it was the corniest rap I ever heard and threw the CD 💿 in the 🗑 trash !! A couple of years later in 2006 when I finally got saved. I went back and started listening to flame again and he became my favorite Christian rapper. And I was listening to a lot of Shai Linne and lamp mode back then too. But flame was the first one who helped me understand limited atonement in his first album. Listening to that it finally clicked and I excepted the doctrine of particular redemption for the first time. Now come on flame 🔥 come on brother !! You mean to tell me that 18 years in the reformed church and you never read or listen to R.C. Sproul’s “What Is Reformed Theology” or back then the book was still called “Grace Unknown”. The very beginning of the book. In the section on sola Fide/ Faith Alone. One of the first things RC Sproul talks about is Luthers reformation breakthrough. An alien righteousness, Extra Nos, and simul iustus et peccator, simultaneously being saint and sinner at the same time. I knew about that stuff my first year being saved as a reformed Calvinist. Because I liked that doctrine so much I went on to read more stuff from Luther “the bondage of the will”, “The Augsburg apology”, “The smackald articles”, The whole book of Concorde. Philipp Melanchthon’s loci communis. Gerhard o forde "The Theology Of the Cross" And my favorite Lutheran book by CFW Walther “the proper distinction between law and Gospel”. Martin Chemnitz “examination of the council of Trent” and “the two natures of Christ”. I just find it hard to believe that you never knew about this stuff in the Reformd circles. It was one of the first things I learned being catholic, evangelical, and reformed !! I read more of Luther back then when I first got saved before I even opened John Calvin’s “Institutes of the Christian religion”. It sounds like to me you were in a very very weird reformed Baptist Church from the things you are saying here on this video. And I just feel bad for you that you were in such a weird church and never got none of this foundational stuff, if you really are telling the truth and never even heard of “extra NOS” your whole time being reformed. I really don’t believe you.. I think you are exaggerating if I’m wrong please let me know? As for me and I thought the same for all Reformd people. The first thing I learned was Justification by Faith Alone, a historical objective redemption, “Alien 👽 Righteousness”, that is found “Extra Nos” outside of our selves, and the proper distinction between the law and the gospel. I learned all that stuff in the first book I ever read from RC Sproul called “what is reformed theology”. And the different views of the Real Presence between Luther and Calvin on in the sacraments. My first year of being saved as a Reformed Calvinist. That’s why I find it hard to believe you never heard of none of the stuff it’s foundational the fundamental to Reformd theology. We are “Catholic” because of Athanasius, Anselm, and Augustine, “evangelical” because of Luther, Philipp Melanchthon, and Chemnitz, reformed because of Calvin, John Knox, Theodore Baeza, and of course RC Sproul lol 😂 we are just dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants !! I thought everybody who was reform held to the orthodox historical views of the church.
Yo this is hitting home in so many ways for me. I go to a reformed church... i love the people there but there are things that have never settled well with me in regards to reformed theology and the implications of that theology and its outworking in the church. They touch so much on this points in this conversation. I'm not sure i'm settled on Lutheran theology and indeed its still pretty foreign to me but to me it seems much more of a consistent framework.
As someone who is Reformed there is a big difference between Reformed guys from Westminster Seminary California and Reformed from other Reformed Seminaries. At Westminster there is a strong emphasis on law/gospel and justification by faith alone.
I was raised Lutheran and now attend a Reformed church. In our liturgy we hear the law, followed by confession of sin, and then our Pastor reads scripture of assurance that we have been forgiven. This is very much like the Lutheran church- Law and Gospel. We look to what Christ accomplished on the cross for our assurance. We do not look within for assurance. We know we are both sinner and saints and that sanctification is a life long process. Our salvation assurance always comes from what Christ did to redeem us. We see the law as a guide to Godly living and know there is no more condemnation for those
in Christ Jesus. If we confess our sin He is faithful to forgive us. I think at least my reformed church, the URCANA, is misrepresented in that we do not look inward for fruit to have assurance. We look to the cross.
The problem is that Calvinism is being represented by Baptists online so everyone thinks that's what it is. True traditional Reformed theology is much closer to Lutheranism than Baptist theology.
I'm reformed and I've never heard anyone say to look to your good works for assurance? I've heard the expression that we're "saved by faith alone, but not by an alone faith." But that's never been said in the context of assurance that I've heard and anyone who believes in sanctification should be able to agree with that.
The law/gospel distinction is actually one thing that drew me to reformed theology as well and totally rocked my world. I don't think that's a uniquely Lutheran distinction given how much I've heard it taught and referenced in reformed circles.
Overall great discussion 👌 I'll never be able to become a lutheran for a number of reasons but I have so much appreciation for Lutheran theology. After all, I was listening to Rod Rosenbladt when it really hit me like a ton of bricks that Jesus paid it all.
Heh, I'm with you. I find myself continually amazed when I hear Lutherans say the same things I read in the Westminster Confession and here in my Reformed church, and then they turn around and sincerely act like Calvinists don't teach those things. It is mind boggling. I get a reformed person holding a high view of Luther looking at lutheranism and being shocked at the differences, but I expected that Lutheran's would have to deal with the same sort of strawmen Calvinists hear all the time and was surprised to see Lutherans echo many of the same strawmen at Calvinists.
The probability here is that you’ve heard similar words or phrases with different meanings. Never heard it any other way and find that most Calvinist doctrine is a result of enthusiasm not sola scriptura.
Not all reformed preach like that, but some do preach yes we must look to Christ but some especially the Puritans are so focused in false faith and fruits and that make people doubt, have ever heard of Edwards religious affection book? It show exactly what I'm saying
So happy about this...
I love flame, aka Marcus Gray.
I met him twice in person. He is the real deal. He is an inspiration for me and my kids!
I grew up on Flame and was Calvinistic Baptist. I’m now presby with a Lutheran view of sacraments. Love this
@ Dr. Jordan B Cooper 52:09 Literally the same thing happened to me when I read those texts and eventually just got tired of explaining away falling away.
The seminary library has your book “the great divide” available. Plan to pick it up and read it in then next week or so
God Bless these two
Yes! I was a big Paul Washer/MacArthur fan neo-calvinist with leanings towards methodism. I became a mess and almost lost my faith. Thanks to Lutheran pastors like you, I became confessional. Your take on Washer and his likes was crucial episodes for me in my struggle! I was stunned to discover that when they leave the efficacy of the sacraments behind, they find ways to replace them, like Washers "go home and pray until God does a supernatural work in you"-replacement for looking to your baptism, which is no better than The Sinners prayer he is so against.
So thank you Dr. Cooper for being public and out there. You are important in this, like so many other Lutheran ministers that joins the online media to tell about what this really is about!
''I was stunned to discover that when they leave the efficacy of the sacraments behind, they find ways to replace them''. EXACTLY. Welcome to lutheranism, friend.
I just started listening to Flame's music. Fantastic stuff! He makes actual diss tracks against false doctrine. Great to listen to. I can't help but think Luther himself would have liked to play some of Flame's songs for Calvin if given the opportunity.
Super exciting to watch!
Beautiful!! Great Conversation Brothers, I'm very interested in learning more from the Lutheran side!! This kind of reminds me of Da Truth and Ravi, so much knowledge and wisdom in such a short amount of time.
The Great Divide coming in the post this Saturday 🙌 thanks for the upload
It would be great to have a conversation about these issues with Dr. White.
He has declined in the past.
@@DrJordanBCooper thanks for the response Dr. Cooper. I'm hoping that will change. These are good conversation to have. I'm am thankful for this discussion and hope there are more in the future. Do you have other videos discussing the differences between the two? I am reformed baptist and have been for some time. I do believe the Doctrines of Grace are coherent and logical due to the very biblical fibers that clothe the doctrines. I think traditions can play are large part of our thinking and behaviors but the conclusion I came to from the DoG is more security in Christ and not less. He is magnified more within this system and not less. God bless and hope to see more videos like this.
@@cheapseats7366 I do. If you look at my videos, you'll see quite a few that discuss Lutheran-Reformed differences.
@@cheapseats7366: I would challenge you to think about exactly how Limited Atonement can provide more security, and not less. How can one ever truly know objectively (not simply by looking at subjective, fallible, internal evidence) that Christ died for ME if he only died for some people? How can you ever know absolutely?
@@jeffnickel8272 Hey Jeff I hope all is well. Simply put God has made those promises for me. I can't speak for anyone else but myself. If a person tells me Christ is sufficient than I believe them until otherwise. I think Dr. Copper went over that. Spurgeon also spoke of the same saying had he'd known there would be no need to preach and of course he doesnt so preached. As someone that holds to limited atonement, by the word of God, I am declared by that atonement secure and safe on that Rock which is Christ the Lord. Limited atonement simply put is antithetical to universalism and declares only certain people, by the grace of God will be saved. LA puts a huge emphasis on the saving and secure grace of God and doesn't stifle it.
My ex pastor and the LCMS had me constantly questioning my salvation as opposed to my reformed brothers. So I went the opposite way of these two. There is a lot of good theology within Lutheranism and also a lot that is wrong. For instance salvation by water baptism, infant baptism and losing salvation. Scripture clearly opposes these three stances and I couldn’t go on pretending they were okay. An individual’s salvation is their own and not by anything they’ve done. It is a free gift, from God, and cannot be taken away. God bless you both and all of you fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. I’m happy, content and very much at peace with where I’m at now.
So helpful … thank you
Man 2020 has been a year.....
Self examination is good. Use the 10 Commandments as a test. And when you realize that you are a wretched sinner, RUN TO THE CROSS.
A curiosity for Dr. Cooper, maybe you've answered but I missed it. When you passed from Reformed theology to Lutheranism, did the AALC require you to follow some Lutheran seminary to be ordained, or did they simply "count" the studies you did in a Reformed seminary?
Thank you, I wish I could an LCMS church near me. The one I that is, has next to nobody attending, and has little to offer me for Bible study.
This was an amazing conversation. As soon as i listened to extra nos i youtubed lutheranism and this guy came up haha. I am a person who is unsure if I am becomming more aware of my sin or if I am off target so to speak. I never know if my awareness of sin is increasing or if ive fallen off the wagon. I think maybe for me its a little of both. I do compare myself to my prior years when i was in the word like crazy and now its a little spotty. Hard to not hold yourself to external standards. Def will be interested in reading the Great Divide. You guys should do more of these talks. I knew a video was comming soon is said Flame needs to explain himself haha.
Man, i love my man, now Dr Cooper. Ive followed him for years, I mean from his 3rd video upload, years, serious and incredibly diligent. So encouraged to see guys my age, "millenials" becoming honest bonafide scholars. Who, in a few more years with be sited in scholarly works and college papers.
Its crazy how long I have followed flame and dr cooper to see them conecting and building together. Bless the Holy Ghosts leading.
How can there be 3 dislikes when this video is an hour and half and was posted only 14 minutes ago? 🤔
Angry Calvin fanbois
@@lutherserbe6435 The dislikes are for Flame's lawsuit with Katy Perry
Esteban Bonilla never heard about that?
Haters gonna hate.
WE HERE .. #LuthLife .. Lex in the house
Classic
Sup muh dude.
Matt Hendren yooooo
15 commercial breaks? Seriously? I just wanted hear the conversation. Too many interruptions.
This was very in depth and informing!
My man! This is so cool!
So how do you reconcile the loss of salvation with John 10:28???
Amen. God will never lose his sheep!
Confessions it’s true God will never lose any of his sheep. But he knows those who are his, how do you know? Many have abandoned the faith and have wandered off. Scripture history reveals this in many places. What about Ananias and saphira? If you lived around them at that time you would have considered them to have been believers. Or even Judas, he was given power along with the other disciples to perform miracles and heal people yet in the end lost his salvation. Everyday we know we are kept by the Lord’s mercy. We live in Godly fear and sober faith because he has the power to harden us if we play around with our salvation by living in sin.
Villarreal Marta Thanks for your flawed and non-Sequitur argument. There are too many wholes and incoherencies in what you wrote. What is your point?
What is worse, you didn’t even understand the question I asked or why I asked it.
Everyone wants to be a teacher. Okay the genius. I’ll indulge you on at least one of your incoherent statement.
How do you know Ananias and Saphira were not believers? Because they lied post salvation and were killed for it?
Are you saved? And, have you lied after being saved? So just because God chose to keep you alive after lying and take them, that means you are saved and they are not? Your arguments are not consistent.
Confessions incoherence? “Wholes”? Look I’m not here to put you down or try to sound superior. I consider myself the chief of sinners. I’m merely trying to help you see that a person can fall away from faith. Even all of Paul’s letters have this warning in them. Otherwise there would be no need to warn anybody.
Confessions oh, also I noticed you thought I was commenting on your post, which is not true. I was commenting to the individual who wrote that God will lose none of his sheep. Which is true he won’t.
The breakdown at minute 21 is hilarious. The Lutheran way is exactly what you were describing the Calvinists doing.😂
Until my morning reading and study this morning in John 10, I was shakey on what Limited Atonement actually meant. But practically, Christs' atonement is "limited" in that only those whom the Father has appointed unto eternal life will be atoned for, efficaciously. It is limited to [only those whom].
10:02 "Your Faith has to be found on something objective."
Hebrews 11:1 says Faith is the objective thing we have.
ὑπόστασις assurance: a support, base or foundation
Faith is of no use if it is in the wrong thing, in fact it would then be detrimental. Our faith derives its value from the soundness/truth/sureness of the thing believed in. The Hebrews chapter makes it plain that it is faith in Christ, not faith as a human attribute, which saves us. It's perhaps a subtle but nonetheless crucial distinction. Faith in Christ alone; not faith in our faith in Christ :-)
Two of my favorite Lutherans in one podcast!
Enjoy your stuff brother,Know any good Lutheran UA-camrs or Mabye books like a lot of folks here I’m coming from a Calvinistic background and have had almost exactly the same struggles and I’m really interested in learning more 🙌🏼?
Wow, this is interesting! I’m finding Lutheranism attractive and more consistent with the scriptures!
Always look to the Cross to find your assurance of salvation...this is what my reformed church teaches.
Listen to Paul washer sermon, felt burden not perfect enough through my work :P
what is name of thus building? Looks cool and modern
It appears to be a church sanctuary. Not sure where though.
We look not only within, but at our behavior which is on the outside. In such a case we may need to experience transformation or more than likely reformation. Reformation deals with amendment of life and a deeper work of sanctification which deals with separation of ourselves from certain known evils.
I’m encouraged yet have so many questions as a “Calvinist”.
I’m a pretty yes/no, black/white, etc.
so if someone who was once Calvinist, now are Lutheran, are they holding to a Arminian?
No longer believe in election? Irresistible grace?
Totally Depraved?
Can you be Reformed without holding to the TULIP?
I’m encouraged yet a bit confused.
I went from Word OF FAITH, to CALVINISM, now hearing their may be Huge errors in what I hold to within reformed theology.
PLEASE SOMEONE EXPLAIN😢😢😢
This video on TULIP may help! ua-cam.com/video/jhaFfaRZLHw/v-deo.html
Arminianism is the opposite error from Calvinist Double Predestination. Lutherans believe that if anyone is saved, it is purely by grace, and God gets all the credit. If anyone is condemned, it is purely their own fault, and God gets none of the blame. Then Lutherans just stop, rather than try to solve the equation where Scripture doesn't solve it. Arminians make the mistake as assigning both outcomes to man's decision. Calvinists make the mistake of trying to solve the equation by assigning both outcomes to God's desire.
Irresistable Grace: Lutherans say No. See above paragraph
Totally Depraved: Lutherans say Yes.
As to how much of TULIP is required to be a Reformed, that varies. Many Reformed refer to themselves as "4 point Calvinists" or "3 point Calvinists." Others say that it's all 5 or nothing at all.
Thomas Talbott
The Inescapable Love of God
Spend the $$$
If God could save everyone, would He? There is an answer to Lutheran's unsolved riddle.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism
To what extent would you agree or disagree with this statement: God saved us that we might obey him in holiness. The purpose of the gospel was to make us holy, and so the gospel was given that we might obey the law of Christ
Thank you guys for this!
I saw Flame at Boyce College after chapel one night. I never thought much of it until Flame released his new album (probably because I am Classical Arminian) until I heard about the scattered TULIPS on the non-Calvinist Baptist end of the internet. It certainly has been interesting to see the YRR gradually collapse.
Bro! Anthony Hokema in his book "the christian looks at himself" says all of this and yet he is still a Calvinists and holds to the elect and still throws away self justification. This is so crazy when people look in other places to find the truth that has been there all along.
Neither does Spurgeon.
So would you say that those who are saved/will be are saved by irresistible grace but those who aren't/won't aren't because they have resisted His grace? Or to say it another way, are you saying that God's grace is both irresistible and resistible?
Grace and peace brothers , I 'm elias from Block Huggers ministries . I love this dialogue
I just wish you had some other brothers from the other view present pushing back as well. Me and a few bros had bible study tonight. If God does the saving and the sealing ( Eph 1:3- 14) Sealed to the day of Redemption. How does a seal blood bought believer walk away . Even in the O.T where it talks about You will keep my commandments. I will put my Spirit in you and you will keep my Statues etc. Jer 31:31 , Ezekiel 36 , John 3 :3 . Born from above . If its God doing the saving how is it not God doing the keeping ?? John 6: 37- 40, 43-47
Baron Klaif We Lutherans do believe it is God doing the keeping too. We say if someone ends up in heaven, the glory is to God alone from start to finish. But on the other hand, if someone goes to hell, it isn’t because of God choosing to leave them in their sins or pass them by, but it’s solely because they resisted God’s grace. This is what they were talking about in the video that there is a tension that is taught in scripture, and that it doesn’t fit a logical formula like Calvinism does.
@@bethanyann1060 Good morning sis, that's not what they communicated they said if someone walks away then they walk away. But How can a regenerate sheep who hears Jesus voice John 10 stray forever . When Jesus clearly says He gives us External life . "ETERNAL" is Not eternal even if we lose it 9 Billion yrs from now . Eternal is FOREVER
Baron Klaif The Lutheran position is that one can be regenerate but not elect. So those passages that you were pointing to they would say that those refer only to the elect
Sorry guys but I’m so confused yet challenged to dig deeper. Is he stating you can lose your salvation? Philippians 1:6?
@@saulpaul7263 yes , they teach you can walk away from the faith
Where is Shai linne when you need him to check a boy on these matters.
Karama Long Shai is living his life in Jesus name
Being a lesser hip hop artist.
This is exciting cos I've listened to flame for years. This makes me wonder how this will affect Christian rap, 116 clique
I'm interested to see what he'll put out in the next couple years.
I too was a convert from wesleyanism, and now I'm a fort wayne seminarian getting ready to go on vicarage. There was so much freedom in understanding Sola fide- Justification by faith, as the Bible states it and not as I was taught it growing up.
Yooooo this conversation is so healthy.
To put it succinctly every "denomination" is an offshoot of an offshoot.
Split after split after split.
There were only 12 original disciples.
Ask yourself this important question
Hello Jordan, what do you think of Barth's doctrine of Election in comparison to Calvins? For Barth, election seems to be 'extra nos' unlike with Calvin, thus providing a greater deal of assurance to the believer.
also Barth as well as followers of his like TF Torrance completely reject limited atonement
Hey, just as a heads up, Dr. Cooper regularly asks for questions for his Q&A programs on his social media accounts. If you ask there you'll likely get an answer.
Have a question. Do most Lutheran's baptize infants? As well as believe that the Lord's Supper involves the actual body and blood of Christ? Vs just represention?
We will baptize the infants of believers. This involves making sure the parents will teach their children the faith as they grow.
We believe that when Christ instituted the supper he meant the words he spoke - this is my body... this is my blood.
@@berniepfitzner487 but the baptism of the infants don't guarantee them salvation? Also isn't it important for them to act in their personal faith?
When Christ said that, do you not think he meant that as a represention?
Look at how Christ interacts with the children. He never turns them away. "The Kingdom of God belongs to such as these."
We teach baptized children the commandments, we call on them to repent, we teach them to pray, we teach them that they 100% are saved by Christ.
I dont think Jesus mentions the bread & wine merely representing his body & blood.
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you: 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh & drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
im a calvinist and never heard of those things about testing our faith. I believe Jesus when he says my sheep hear my voice and they follow me and i give them life.
#2 LET'S GOOOOOO! Good stuff
Great video! Thanks.
Corinthians 8:1
8 Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.
Terrific conversation! Hits on so many things I experienced coming in to Lutheran thought. I find Calvinists ignorantly thinking they have a monopoly on monergism and their magisterial use of reason particularly irksome.
Book helped me as well. I'm on round two. Still very confused about infant baptism though. 🤓
It helped when I realized that baptism is *not* a good work of man but a gift of God. We *receive* baptism and its promised benefits (Mk 16:16, 1 Pt 3:21). Since babies are in the same predicament as adults (original sin, total depravity) they need baptism too.
@@Maetryx Do you baptise babies in your church ?
Isn't baptism meant to be a sign of faith ?
@@NinthConnection Both Dr. Cooper and Flame have some great material on Baptism. I’d highly recommend you check it out.
Who’s like the Paul Washer preachers / teachers of Lutheranism aside from Cooper who I really appreciate?
I’m a non-denominational believer of Christ here! I’m very perplexed by this. Jesus is God and God is Good!
This verse alone gives me comfort and back up so many others I. The Bible says that Saints are saved, eternally.
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”
1 John 2:19 ESV
I find it so strange that some find comfort in Lutheranism, where I found it works based, and find Calvinism hard to accept where I found comfort. Daily repentance sounds very works based by the way Lutherans talk about it. I believe repentance is ongoing by the minute, but has nothing to do with “staying saved”. That’s not right. We should rest in the gospel, not try to work for our salvation.
This verse alone gives me comfort and back up so many others I. The Bible that Saints are saved, eternally.
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”
1 John 2:19 ESV
I find it so strange that some find comfort in Lutheranism, where I found it works based, and find Calvinism hard to accept where I found comfort. Daily repentance sounds very works based by the way Lutherans talk about it. I believe repentance is ongoing by the minute, but has nothing to do with “staying saved”. That’s not right. We should rest in the gospel, not try to work for our salvation.
Guys, I haven’t finished the whole interview, but Paul goes out of his way to make sure you know that Christ didn’t die just for the sins of the church he was writing to but for the sins of the whole world. The Holy Spirit anticipated Calvin before he ever came on the scene. Anticipated and cut them off at the pass regarding this limited atonement. You might listen to William Lane Craig who is an apologist on that subject.
Question...actually 2 questions
1. I have considered changing some of my theology. In regards to election can a person who is not elect be a believer at some point?
2. Also you believe that every person who is elect will end up in heaven...right?
In Christ,
I'm an LCMS lay Lutheran but I'm pretty confident in saying that the answer to both your questions is yes :)
Thanks for the clarification!
@@bethanyann1060 i agree
Life is already too difficult to torture one's self over the inability to follow the Law at the level that it is defined in the Sermon on the Mount. It is a cruel and ugly predicament, that one has to be crushed to receive forgiveness for not doing the impossible. And of course this is Love??! and Good?? an Ugly Truth.
My church correction - URCNA (United Reformed Church of North America)
Question, so Lutheran and Calvinist are both Christian right? Just different styles of Christianity right? I'm confused...
How much can a person disbelieve the Word of God and remain Christian?
Flame has low-key but very actively been supporting a lot of suffering guys in the LCMS. Watch Wittenberg Project.
Reformed Presbyterians people do look to the sacraments for assurance.
Although I would make a caveat that limited atonement does not draw away from passages like Hebrews. There is such a thing of Christians that trample on the blood that was sacrificed for them.
Calvin was aware of these verses lol
So as Lutherans we don’t believe in once saved always saved? That’s the one part of this I didn’t understand.
Here's Dr. Cooper's video on that question. ua-cam.com/video/QBTy10EG0y8/v-deo.html
The beginning:
“It’s Flame!! He must be interviewing a Lutheran pastor and getting their views on things”
Later on...
“Wait, what’s going on? “
Later on...
“What? No , am I hearing things right?”
Midpoint:
“Nooooooooooo”
Hahahaha it’s still all good. Same team just different numbered jerseys (Eph 4:3)
Im in the middle...im staying there and fully appreciate where flame is. When it comes to church discipline ive never seen Matt 18 followed. I think in the situation spoke on i believe it depends on the sin specifically. Why it was brought to the church leaders in the first place if the person repented to the individual it shouldnt have went any further unless of course the person was a part of the church leadership. To vague really but it doesn't sou d like it was handled biblically. Enjoyed the co conversation. Would have liked if they went deeper on thier beliefs on sacraments and how it ties into salvation.
It is easy to fail when it comes to Matthew 18. Just look at how easily gossip spreads. Frequently, we don't even realize we're doing it.
There are also instances where someone is sinning publicly even though the people who are being sinned against don't necessarily care. Discipline still needs to be applied so that the rest of the congregation isn't being led astray.
This is a reply that I made to someone else's comment, but I thought to repost it as there are disconcerting things that I've seen blossom out of the ungracious tone Flame takes towards Calvinism and Calvinists in general, on his latest project.
As it pertains to Flame suggesting that Calvinism promotes looking inwardly for assurance of salvation, I responded...
*"It was almost as if he was projecting his own struggles unto reformed theology as a whole.*
*But I don't think that those struggles are exclusive to Calvinism, but are consistent with the ebbs and flows of unbelief, (as it pertains to trusting God's promises), that all Christians struggle with.*
*So let me first say that I will be in prayer for Flame, as there seems to be some major issues going on with his lack of wisdom in handling his switch in doctrine. I think that lack of wisdom may be indicative of deeper struggles. For that reason, I was just thankful that the brother hadn't left the faith, but was just leaving Calvinism.*
*In a nutshell, I was confused as to why he approached his critique of Calvinism so abrasively, and in doing so, risked alienating his brothers and sisters in Christ who have been supporting his efforts for 9 albums now, and over 15 years. Where's the wisdom in that?*
*It's almost as if he believes that Calvinism is heretical. Anything short of believing that, should've been handled more delicately so as to promote unity and avoid causing division amongst the Saints.*
*In other words, there will always be differences amongst the body as it pertains to non-essential doctrines. We don't beat each other up over these things. Instead we walk in the joy of unity in agreement over the most important thing.*
*But as it stands, I've already seen tribal skirmishes, based on denomination and doctrine, that the ungracious tone of his project promotes.*
*Not to mention, that his caricature of Calvinism was alarming. It's as if he never fully understood it himself. Which in hindsight, could've led to some of the issues he was having with looking inwardly."*
I'm not sure of this, but I believe when Flame was still with Cross Movement, They required for him to have his material vetted by church elders prior to release. I wonder if this is happening now within his Lutheran fellowship? And if it is, I wonder if they were ok with the tone of the project?
Thank you for your message 👍 I agree with you.
Oh, and John MacArthur is not Reformed. He's a Dispensationalist.
Then please fix Wikipedia:
"MacArthur is a non-denominational Calvinist"
@@Mygoalwogel "Calvinist" is a pretty fuzzy word and seems to mean different things to different people. Within the Reformed camp, there are many who make a distinction between a 'Calvinist' as one who narrowly agrees with Calvin over soteriology, and 'Reformed' as those who are confessional and hold to either the Westminster Standards or Three Forms of Unity (sometimes also the London Baptist Confession), are Covenantal (often including holding to covenant baptism, hence excluding even Reformed baptists from being Reformed), and of course agree with Calvin on soteriology.
I agree with Hans that MacArthur is not Reformed; he is just a Calvinist in that he holds to the soteriology but he rejects covenant theology and is not confessional (and he's a baptist). Piper is also in this camp, AFAIKT. Someone like White and Durbin would be Reformed unless rejection of covenant baptism should exclude them from that camp (they hold to the London Baptist Confession and its modified covenantalism). People like Bahnsen and Sproul would be Reformed in every sense.
For every one look you take at yourself, take 10 at Christ and His finished work for us sinners! Great video!
My question based on what I’ve heard is this? Can God enlightened a person’s understanding of Him beyond the text? If not, why? And if yes, how?
Sounds like montanism or ultramontanism to me.
@@Mygoalwogel
I had to look up Montanism but I’m not sure that response aligns with what I’m asking. Can God enlightened a person’s understanding of Him beyond the text not to form a new doctrine but to better comprehend who He is or are we to suggest that what we don’t know should be accepted as a mystery. Then what would be the reasoning behind verses like Matthew 7:7-11? I’m asking in earnest btw mainly because I too have walked back from a Calvinistic perspective.
@@themillersbuiltupontherock3742 Oh! Forgive me. Based on your question I rashly assumed you were a Papist trying to justify Papal Ultra-Montanism.
@@Mygoalwogel Lol no worries. But no I’m definitely not a troll. Haha
@@themillersbuiltupontherock3742 That's refreshing. I don't know about "beyond the text." But certainly there are those who "eat the scroll" and let it upset their stomach. They teach even familiar children's Bible stories with more profound insight, crushing Law, and high-enducing sweetest Gospel than I can draw out. Bryan Wolfmueller comes to mind. When discussing contemporary issues like evolution he's naive to a fault. But when he teaches from the Scripture he tears down and builds up in ways my own personal reading can't do for me.
You're saying context has to be 'read into' the epistles first (8:45 - 9:00). Please explain how this can be, especially in light of 2 Corinthians 11:3.
Love your ministry for years Flame. At the 23 min mark you begin to discuss Mathew 7:15-23. And your explanation is sound that the context is about false teachers / prophets. Correct.
Then your guest goes on to ONLY apply it to speakers/teachers. Missing Jesus’ application.
As you know scripture interpreted itself. The next verse says it also applies to ALL HEARERS. Who do or don’t do. Or who do or don’t bear fruit.
NOTE: who hears and does....
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Please show me where I am incorrect.