Mystery Mopar Big Block
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- While trying to break this frozen engine free, I noticed some curious things about it: a lack of casting number on the passenger side, a different oil pan, 1972 date on the driver side, both 413 and 440 stamped on the data pad up top…what is going on here?
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Having 'been there', back in-the-day, I'll tell you what you've got there. It is a 'homemade 426 wedge'. That's how you did it back then. The block is a 413 'truck block' (industrial), and ran the 440 Magnum heads with an overbore to use 440-slugs. By the late 1960's, racers had depleted the availability of the 426-wedges, so it was either 'make your own' or run something else (a lot of various classes had banned the 'big hemi', and few 392's were still around as well). So...either build it back 'as it came to be', or 'resleeve the 413 block' to have a rare stock 413 (which was the direct competitor to the GM 409...1-hp per cubic inch).
Thanks for sharing that, pretty wild! but yea I came to the same conclusion as well that it was an industrial 413 someone punched to a 426
It's a industrial 413 block bored to 440 size as they were cast from the same cylinder core molds. Extra thick for cooling in the 413 application but able to be bored as large as a 440.
yep,youre right me and my bud used the 413 blocks exclusively,just so we could bore to the magic 426 inch high reving engine
There's a you tube channel called Nick's garage if you haven't heard of it check it out and contact him about the discrepancy of the 413/440 number, he's a wealth of information especially Mopar related
Yes I am very familiar with Nick and his channel, you’re right he’s an OG!🏁
Thay may have been a 413 that didnt meet spec so it went to rework dept for a bore job. May also been cast by IHC...
413 industrial bored to 4.31" for a 440 CID with flat-top pistons for low-squeeze compression (unleaded fuel) no more than 9:1, if that. Probably 7.8:1 or less. The VERY old 401/403 Wedge was the same block with OMG thick piston walls for truck use, then Ma Mopar kept adding metal to the block so it didn't huff-n'-chuff like a Chebby BB. I have an AirStream 13 meter Excella Motorcruiser with a 440 Max Wedge in it (originally a Chebby 454) and now by a rear-wheel dyno, I have 187 MORE HP, 242 ft/lbs MORE torque thru the 6-speed and average 22% better fuel economy. And you wonder WHY I spent $12,000 on the swap??? Three trips to Banff from Tulsa towing an Accord and I MADE money on fuel not to mention pulling the Rockies at 75 MPH @ 16.8 MPG!
Sometimes when we had bad motors back in the day we would change them out under warranty so you may have what you got it is was a 13 now it's a 440 with the crank is usually an 8-ball crank in a 13 so if you got a flange on the back that's what they did probably broke a block they needed a block a board it's stuck it in there to get the vehicle out of that shop back in the day we did a lot of stuff have a good day
Frank, the 699 oil pan is 72-73 C body and is physically the same as the 187 pan and is commonly used to swap big blocks into A bodies.
The 402 is a B/E body pan 66-71.
Restamps are very common as are mistakes in the manufacturing process with MoPar.
Thanks for the clarification💪🏼
I agrre with rodney i had a 70 motor home with 413 and 440 stamped over air cleaner said 413 360 hp but bllocl waa 440
It a warranty block it was a 413 but needed a 440 for warranty so they changed it to a 440. Worked for dodge seen it done many times
exactly,only purists freak out over 27 inches,RB IS THE MOST POWERFUL WEDGE IN THE WORLD,WHO CARES
@@strattuner Pontiac 455, Olds 455 and Buick 455 are waiting outside and want to have a word with you.
(Uh oh you guys, SCRAM I JUST SAW FORD 538 SUPER DUTY PULL UP !!!!)
@@patrickshaw8595 every engine you stated is a 4.25 or larger stroke engine,440 does its magic with only 3.75 stroke,no seriously mopar engineers found out that rod stroke ratio is perfect at 1.8 to 1.9 rod stroke ratio,its not magic its engineering,these long stroke engines are powerful up to 4200 rpm
then false motion takes over,then the 440 revs to 6800 pulling like a freight train,if you ever see a set of 383-440 heads you will notice that our ports are smaller,its all about port velocity,fact,all of the engines you mentioned i've pulled and overhauled all of them,they are damn good engines,they were hamstrung with super long strokes,made to run 4200 and down for pulling power to move 3 ton luxo cruisers,,my 440 6pack challenger would pull these engined cars right out of the hole every time,they had big giant ports and slow moving port velocity,its not magic ,just design,doesn't matter they are all american iron,choose your metal they are all good,have a good one
@@strattuner Dude I won and lost a half-million dollars street racing in and around Kansas City from the mid-Seventies to the mid-90s. I owned an automotive machine shop 1971 - 2001 and there isn't much you can tell me about engines.
440s are cheap Winnebago engines, don't wind up unless you dump a 400 shot of nitrous in them and I still have a '95 Dakota pickup with one in it.
I appreciate your enthusiasm youngster - but at some point you got to realize who you are talking to. I knew everything you said years before you were ever born, okay?
@@patrickshaw8595 i'm 71 and was instructed by men who they have written books,pink,waterman,black,yunick,and i also fleeced a lot of kansas city slow pokes and my engines weren't r/v engines,they revved to meet my needs,nitrous is only good for scattering engines,weak engines like fords and chevies,many went down,many c notes paid for my new speed equipment,youngster,laughable,ever race LORING DRIVE IN BONNER,IF NOT,YOU ARE NOT A STEET RACER,I OWNED THEM WITH A 65 FORMULA S CUDA,THEY WERE TOO FAT TO FLY,HAVE A GOOD ONE
If You Have Not Free the motor Yet ,Get a 55 Gallon drum, Fill it with old oil, Keep it of the Ground 1 1/2 Start a fire, lower the Block into the Oil Keep fire Going 1 -2 days That motor will Free right up ,I have done this to lots of stuck motors and it works.
Thank you for the suggestion, I’m sure that does work pretty good, we did get the engine freed tho !
69 Super Bee with a 4spd and any big block is a win for sure.
Exactly!!
When I have a stock motor I put a flywheel on the back and a bolt in one of the bellhousing holes and use a pry bar in the teeth of the flywheel against the bolt gives you more leverage then trying to turn from the center of the crank
In a less frozen engine true that is a method, one I tried as well, this engine was just way too seized must have sat out bare cylinders in the weather for a long time
Knew a man in southern Oregon prior to 1965 who had a 1955 Dodge with a stock 413 V8 in it.... and GM made such a fuss over their 409 in the mid 60s!!! Mopar ruled back in the day before restrictor plates!!!
It sure could be originally a 413 block over stamped by someone since 1972.
If it were me, I would use a piston diameter sized piece of aluminum solid to hit the pistons . Perhaps with a steel rod as a driver. The momentum of the steel is higher. The bigger contact patch aluminum to piston will prevent damage and distribute the force to the edges/rings.
Hit the pistons in firing order while someone puts pressure on the crank.
a little PB Blaster never hurts no matter how bad it smells.
If it has timing gears instead of a chain you have an industrial or marine engine. The camshaft was reverse rotation on those engines.
Interesting, good to know. I already gave away this engine for the 69 440 you’re seeing videos of now. Thank you!
On tractor blocks I would put wood shavings in 'em & light it. Works great!
That is a motor from a dodge concord motor home you could get a 413 or a 440 in them I had a block just like that in my old motor home had no stamping on that pad. It also had odd heads on it also
Casting number 2658832-2 426 wedge block cast on second shift. casting number is a solid clue. Those pistons don't have valve relief cuts -odd. mystery block.
Where did you pull the 426 second shift from? Was searching around online didn’t see that one
The pad was probably stamped at a later date. I trust the 11/21.
Google says 2658836 is for industrial blocks. I don’t find anything about the 2 at the end.
Yup I’m seeing that on google too, pretty cool!
probably second mold.
after lubing the cylinders real good ,like you did,i use a propane torch and heat the pistons up till they smoke a little,little,and then torque on it to see if it moves,if it moves,STOP,then pull the lower end and extract them,that way you break any ring lands,cast iron rings will seal anything
That is definitely an industrial 413 block they also used them in trucks. It was probably overboard at the factory to 440 size. They probably had a bunch of them sitting around instead of throwing them in the junk they just overboard them the 440 and used them.
One thing to try get a 45 gallon oil barrel made of steel and drop it in fill with water and boil it after a couple hours try moving pistons , it worked for me once .
Agree ! A 413 bored to 440 , block is late 50's early 60's with press in freeze plugs .
every v-8 from the time had press-in core plugs.
Looks very similar to an older motorhome 413 block I have.
TRAVCO MOTOR HOMES USED THE 413
I have a similar block with no casting id. 1970 police 440 with hp stamped on top pad
We used blocks of wood to fee up frozen pistons, a lot less damage to the piston when you hammer them.
I have seen marine blocks, RV and truck blocks with no casting numbers
Maybe from a motor home
this video did really good! good job babe!😉☄️☄️
Thank you honey!!😎😁😁
If you can get one cylinder to top dead center then measure the lowest piston in the bore to the top of the deck and that will give you the stroke. Then you will forsure know what you have.
That’s true thanks, however this one is froze still haven’t got it to move yet
Except the 440 and the 413 have the same stroke. 3.75
It could have been the change over blocks from 13 to 4 40 it's got a J in the number it could have been a real early block before they started doing all that castings on the 440s
THE best penetrating oil is 50/50 acetone and ATF. It stinks. Named Panther Piss for a reason. Brush it where needed and quickly bag the block. Marvel Mystery Oil is for removing carbon, not rust.. Second best penetrating oil is ZEP 45 Orange Label.
Get some pb blaster in gallon can. It is a penetrating oil that literally eats rust and won't eat up the metal.
PB Blaster is good. It's about the 3rd best thing and it's sold everywhere.
@@patrickshaw8595 what are the other 2 things that are better in your opinion?
@@ericsmcmahan Not opinion it's just plain fact that 50/50 acetone and ATF is best. Has a lot of disadvantages look up "Panther Piss"
Second is ZEP 45 Orange Label but you got to have an account to get the stuff. Be careful because it uses amyl nitrate for a carrier.
Really I think Kano Kroil might be a little better than PB Blaster but again like the first two I mentioned you need to keep it wet by bagging an engine in a trash bag.
PB Blaster is great. Sold everywhere,
Spray it an forget. Shoot some more on it once in a while - It'll do the job for sure.
If you are really lazy and got lots of time get a container big enough to set the engine in, pump in Red Diesel Fuel, pound the lid on and check it every month or two.
@@patrickshaw8595 ok. And I have used a lot of kroil. it is probably better at penetrating. But it won't dissolve the rust like the pb blaster.
@@ericsmcmahan I like PB for stuff hanging upside down like suspension parts and stuff. Stays where you put it. Once in a while you get lucky and have a nut or something inside little depression or cup-shaped area and it's fun just to put a little Kroil in there and watch it "crawl" into anywhere and everywhere there's rust.
Does it have a vin number stamped on the pad?.. It does not have the extra cooling holes for the heads on the deck surface... I think it was a factory replacement block... Most likely if it has no vin stamped on pad.
No vin on the pad, but again why is there a 413 stamped under the 440? It’s rather odd. You’ve got the ‘72 year cast on the driver side, seems more like an industrial 413..
@@FanelliRestorations yes but would industrial have the extra cooling holes in both the heads and block like a motor home block
You are need to put on the flywheel, a housing bolt and apply your leverage. In doing torque test we found you apply very little torque on the centrally located crank bolt.
Believe me, I coulda welded a 20’ steel rod to the flywheel and pulled on it with 2 guys and still wouldn’t have cracked that pistons free…but for a less stuck engine, sure!
Evap o rust works good for rusted and stuck pistonies
Transmission fluid works good for breaking loose stuck engines
Thanks yes tried it, wasn’t enough
Just keep soaking it sometimes it might take a couple weeks but usually eventually it'll break free good luck hope it gets saved have a good day
Mine the wrist pins in the pistons had dried out and seized...ended up pulling the pan and undo rods ..then used a block of wood to drive the pistols out.....after removing 4 piston it finally broke free and rotated to remove the rest of them
Is it a boat motor
440 came in different configurations, I thought I had a 440rb, was police interceptor....different distributor, and enough other things that it was $$ build.
Motorhome or industrial old ones. Flatbeds , dumpers, small tankers. May go back to 20s i think. Like the newer fuel injected magnums.
Maybe that’s a 413 that’s been bored to 440
That’s what I thought yes
Soak the block with some Coca-Cola or try to use dawn soap
may be because it is older block
What it looks like to me is somehow a new casting that should have went to junk pile instead got built. What heads were on it?
No idea what heads, just came along with the car as a core to build
413 60 overs make it 426 so there is no way you can get 440 out of a 413
Those sleves are only so thick. This would have to be + .140 over. If that were possible I'd have a 500 ci 440.
It uses the same mold cores and is just left thick for industrial use. You can actually bore them out to 4.375 or 4.380 just as safely as any 440 (.055" over or .060" over).
@@rodneybyrd9516 dude. It's. +.140 over. 4.18 vs 4.32. It can't be done. Sleves are 1/8 inch thick. sleves are universally made at catapillar.
@@tomhowe1510 sleeves??? no sleeves in these cast iron blocks to start with.and yes,you can bore a 413 to 440 cubes.did it.
@@73-carina18 wrong. Ask garlits. We grout fill our blocks after sonic testing to bore as far out as we can. All rb blocks are externally the same but core shift means something. They didn't just cast 6 million blocks in 1959.
Look at the flywheel end of the block if it has a X on it then you have a Ball Stud Hemi block not a lot of them were made
A U-code 440 was the 375 horse hi-po version.
For a 70-74 440 yes it was 🏁
@@FanelliRestorations When I saw the U 440 on the stamping pad I put the two together.
A stamp is only as smart as a stamper....I've owned Smith&Wessons that were mis stamped.
You should have gotten some WD40 to spray the cylinders and the pistons to unseize the engine. Good luck on it.
Thank you yes I tried that it’s not a strong enough liquid to eat away rust just kinda helps lubricate, white vinegar and muriatic acid woulda been ideal but I went with some diesel after still didn’t work. Need more leverage
Just measure the space in between the cylinders,if it's been bored it'll have less!!
Try brake fluid & trans fluid.
We did!
413 is a boat anchor the crank is an 8 bolts no flange on the crankshaft you cannot use it in a regular 440 boat anchor😟😟😟😟😟😟😟😟😟👎👎👎👎👎
T413 would be 1963 413.
413.
Vinager and with the oil
It’s a police interceptor block.
its probably from outer space🤣☺🤣
1964 police interceptor has V4 stamped on it there's no casting for the year and it's just maybe a replacement mode that's what came out of a 64 police interceptor so I got one we'll be breaking it down when I did have the time sit on it for 25 years and I know everybody wants it so I got this one for a real good deal then imagine what it cost now to have an original one haha documentation said it was for 426 Max wedge
Use straight Kerosene when soaking rusted rings to cylinder walls
Atf
If you got lots of time submerging it in diesel fuel will eventually free anything. I sjhit you not I dragged an old 4wd transfer case out of a river bank and for sjhits and grins I put it in a big old plastic tote I had and wasted 100 gallons of diesel covering it. Pounded the lid on the tote, checked it a year later and I could move the input shaft a little.
Left it another 6 months and it spun over. Not smooth - but it turned by hand and shifted ranges !
@@patrickshaw8595 thats crazy as hell
@@Sak-zo1ui BTW it was red off road diesel that had gotten contaminated with gasoline and stuff. It was destined for a weed burner, so it was free. Probably after I go up to the farm and check that transfer case again I'll probably just throw the stuff back in the waste oil tank because I'm sure it will still burn.
Trick might not work with low sulfur diesel I don't know.
I know that you're not supposed to keep any diesel in a galvanized container because it will will eat the galvanizing (tin plating) off of it eventually.
I didn't invent that - I saw an old heavy equipment guy do it with an old truck four speed that had been left outside with the cover off for 20 years.
He put new roller and ball bearings in it, left the brass bushings and stuff alone, kind of polished up the gears by hand in the solvent tank with some real fine black sandpaper and it worked fine for a long time in a Jeep.
@@patrickshaw8595 thats dope as hell. Ill have to try it. Thanks for the info!
So not a muscle car engine owner... so forgive me for not knowing. Why does everyone care so much about breaking a motor free that needs rebuilding anyway?
Doesn't somebody by now make a tool something like a hole saw that could cut the piston out? (Please don't think literally like a hole saw, think of a crafted tool designed to do the job.) Isn't protecting the bore of an important and rare block important? vs. Hammering the pistons, pry bar on the crank... just seems 1910 to me.
If you have a boring bar machine or a large milling machine you can make pretty short work of a piston. I have carefully cut connecting rods off with a small cutting torch, too. it all depends on what you want to save. You rarely reuse pistons from a rusty engine and you almost always do the connecting rods. There really isn't any good way to cut off the bottom of the piston's wrist pin boss so you can get the steel wrist pin and connecting rods out of the way. So penetrating oil and love taps with a hammer it is. Do yourself a favor and get a friend, figure out which way the crank should have torque put on it - and have him lean on it that direction while you use a rounded pine 4x4 and about a 6 pound one-hand hammer and very moderate velocity strikes. If its going to be stubborn you can switch up to an oak 4x4 or as a last resort dried Osage Orange ("Hedge") wood.
@@patrickshaw8595 Thank you for sharing!
Good question! Breaking the engine free means that it will just be a lot more simple during tear down, it will allow the pistons to be driven out more easily and cause less potential damage to the cylinder walls. Some people try and get away at home without having to machine the engine after if the pistons come out good (avoid truly boring and honing) in our case, Roger is a machinist so we will always machine the cylinder walls for optimized maximum compression.
@@FanelliRestorations Yep. I hope he goes to the trouble of using a boring bar+Shims (tiny "feathers" actually) to get exact perpendicularity of the bore with the main bearing axis. Of secondary importance but still worth doing is to ultrasonically determine the casting wall thickness everywhere along the bore and see if it can be "cheated" a few thousandths to make the wall thickness more equal everywhere.
It really helps to control distortion of the walls under heat and load and the rod big ends can usually accommodate a slight axial displacement via the axial clearance of the rod small end vs. piston bosses. Sometimes a couple swipes with a file on one of the piston's wrist pin bosses is necessary. I "dry fit" my own personal creations so I am kind of a bug about this.
Just realize that the worst thing ever is to just send a hone to take out .030" to .060" of iron thinking that is optimal procedure. You should bore it first - leaving about .003 for the hone.
THAT'S near-perfection.
400
Good guess but nope, a 400 block (361,383,400) lacks the flat pad next to the distributor. Not a 400
Pad is not on side of distributor but on top. So 413,426 or 440
no, wrong pad, and 400 has a .020 bigger bore than a 440.
Sonic test will set you free!
White vinegar works even better.
It probably came out of Fleetwood camper
LMAO, no one noticed the big undrilled casting lugs for the Ind engine and the rear engine mounts....its a donkey mate🤣
Hit with your pers .