Great analysis, as usual. However, I have to correct a tiny mistake: Grishnakh wasn't from the Misty Mountains. There were three factions with different goals in that band of Orcs: Ugluk wanted to take the Hobbits to Isengard, and was the strongest faction of the three. The weakest faction was that from Moria, which was probably a group of Orcs still chasing the Fellowship around to avenge their captain. The last one was Grishnakh's company, who were from Mordor with orders directly from a Nazgul (probably the one Legolas shot) to capture the hobbits and bring them to Mordor, also alive. Later, Aragorn commented this about Grishnakh. _‘All this about the Orcs of Barad-dûr, Lugbúrz as they call it, makes me uneasy,’ said Aragorn. ‘The Dark Lord already knew too much, and his servants also; and Grishnákh evidently sent some message across the River after the quarrel. The Red Eye will be looking towards Isengard. But Saruman at any rate is in a cleft stick of his own cutting.’_ - TTT Book 3 Chapter 9.
Is that so? I did read the passage before making this video. I wasn't aware that Grishnakh and the Moria Orcs were two different factions. I just assumed Grishnakh was leading a band of Moria Orcs that were in service to Sauron. Thanks for the correction.
My theory on this exact question has for a while been that the Moria, Goblintown and Mount Gundabad Orc/Goblin populations, were about 10,000-20,000 across the entire span of the Hithaeglir, with the largest number being within Moria and the second largest being at Mount Gundabad. I think the Goblins that attacked Balin's Colony up the Dimrill Dale, were sent from elsewhere in the Misty Mountains. Khazad-Dûm is a very big place, being beneath 3 mountains peaks and extending down many levels for miles. So I'm sure even 10,000 Goblins could seem quite thin on the ground if they were spread out around that expanse in smaller groups. Of course in the films it seems their numbers are vast and they are crawling all over Dwarrowdelf, literally. However, in all fairness here Moria is a very big place, and even the Goblins the Fellowship encountered, were likely just the localised battalions they ran into. As for Goblintown, it is much harder to be sure, though I reckon several thousand must have constituted it's true strength to be a real threat to High Pass. Meanwhile, at Mount Gundabad, perhaps 5,000-6,000 Gundabad Orcs remained? It is hard to know of course. I still reckon that in spite of serious losses in the Battle of the Five Armies, that they would have recovered to a large extent. After all, they already _did_ recover in between the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, and the events of the Battle of the Five Armies and Quest for Erebor. I know that was a longer time span but still. All told, I think about 10,000 Gundabad Orcs were around during the events of The Hobbit, whereas later on they were much reduced. We know that the Battle of Azanulbizar in TA 2799 involved at least 20,000 Orcs Moria and Gundabad Orcs, and probably Goblintown ones too considering the Dwarves supposedly cleared them out in a purging/genocidal campaign up and down the mountains. The suggestion was that the last of the Hithaeglir Orcs rallied at Moria, daring the Dwarves to come in after them. That said, perhaps some Goblins simply fled to Goblintown and hid there. I have a feeling we should differentiate between Goblintown Goblins and those from the rest of the Misty Mountains. The main reason for this is because the Goblintown Goblins seem far more ancient and skulking than the other Orcs and/or Goblins of the Misty Mountains - and because more importantly, they _recognise Glamdring and Orcrist_ which proves that a good proportion of them had to have been as old as the First Age. On first sight, the Goblins are shown to be terrified of ''Foehammer'' and ''Orc/Goblin Cleaver'' (Glamdring and Orcrist, respectively) The last time they would have seen or heard of their use to be so scared of them, would have been the Wars of Beleriand in the First Age (particularly concerning the battles in which the Gondolodrim/Gondolinodhrim were involved, including of course the Fall of Gondolin) King Turgon must have made them pay a heavy price with Glamdring (though whom bore Orcrist is unknown, but it must have been someone who inflicted severe losses on them with it) Described as the 'mate' of Glamdring, then perhaps it was a secondary sword of King Turgon or that of one of his royal guards? In any case, the fact that a stinky relic population of Goblintown Goblins instantly recognised those swords on sight, around 6,000 years after they must have last seen them, says a whole lot about both those particular Goblins as well as of course the Elven blades. Gondolin PTSD flashbacks for the Goblins I think... Anyway, it proves that at least some of them are extremely ancient (likely far older than most if not all of the Gundabad Orcs and Moria Orcs/Goblins) If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say Goblintown was more of a refuge for the older line of Goblins. Clearly, the Peter Jackson trilogy made them very different to both the Moria and Gundabad Orcs, and in both of his trilogies, a concerted and passionate effort was put into establishing recognisable themes and aesthetic differences between each and every group. Suffice it to say I think it's likely they managed to evade the Dwarves in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs. Maybe 3,000-4,000 hide out there and aren't interested in getting wiped out by the Dwarves, so just provide a local threat to travellers in and around High Pass, though are not seen elsewhere. As far as I'm aware, Thrain and Thorin didn't purge Goblintown during that war. Probably purged everything else and drove the survivors of the other (mostly unnamed) strongholds out, and forced them into a last stand at Moria. Could be wrong but that would explain why Goblintown seems so isolated and untouched. Now, we know that even when defeated by the Dwarves (albeit at an appalling, near ruinous cost for the Dwarves and Dúrin's Folk) many Orcs escaped into Rohan where they caused problems for the Rohirrim as you mentioned. The Rohirrim did defeat them (technically twice; the first time thinking they'd wiped them out, the 2nd time avenging the King slain by an Orc archer at Dunharrow) They were trying to infest the Ered Nimrais/White Mountains, but Rohan stopped them (and I'd like to think in my own ''headcanon'' or whatever the term is, that any the Rohirrim didn't kill, ended up getting slaughtered inside the Paths of the Dead near to Dunharrow, when desperate enough to go inside, though I have absolutely zero evidence for that. I just like the idea of a few wandering in there and not coming back out for obvious reasons. After all, they killed a Prince of Rohan for going in there so why not Orcs? We do know they did go to Dunharrow so if the shoe fits...) Exactly how many Orc survivors from Azanulbizar went South into Rohan is unknown. I'd speculate at least a couple of thousand or more. Maybe there were considerably more than 20,000 Orcs at Azanulbizar (which would account for why the Dwarven death toll was quite so huge) They were vaguely said to be twice the number of the Dwarves, which would be about 20,000 - but even if just 10% of that figure was added on the top estimate, 22,000 would be a lot tougher army to deal with even with just a 10% difference. 2,000 Orcs is still 2,000 Orcs. Maybe there were as many as 25,000 plus there. Who knows. We know enough fled North to reconstitute a viable population at Mount Gundabad and another group to later become the Moria Goblins. So, yeah, I think by the War of the Ring there _had_ to be at least 10,000 Orcs up and down the Hithaeglir, not including the ones Saruman used for his purposes of making the new Uruk-Hai of Isengard (and yes I know Sauron made Uruks first long before, I'm just referring to Saruman's Uruks) Strategically, it'd make a lot of sense as to why Rivendell's mighty Elves, were pretty much forced to stay home constantly, bar a few excursions by Elrond, Glorfindel, Gwindor, Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen, because they were strategically marked to the North by Mount Gundabad. *Ultimately, Sauron called upon the Easterlings of Rhûn to take Erebor in the War of the Ring* not Mount Gundabad's Orcs. Presumably, Sauron knew they were not strong enough anymore to take Erebor, though was content with keeping Rivendell marked from Gundabad by whatever they had left there? As depleted as they were, surely over half a century of recovery since the Battle of the Five Armies would see their ranks return to something of their former strength? Maybe 5,000 ish? Makes sense. Enough to constantly threaten Rivendell, but not enough to threaten Erebor and Dale. P.S - Grishnákh and his company of Orcs were sent from Mordor, probably from Barad-Dûr itself (the Orcs called it Lugbúrz) He was threatening to report the actions of the Misty Mountains Orcs and Isengard Uruks back to Barad-Dûr. Seems he was an Orc captain from Barad-Dûr.
Yeah, the fact that the orcs of Moria posed a threat to the Fellowship and managed to destroy Balin's colony does not necessarily mean that they were that powerful. The Fellowship were only nine people (half of them were among the greatest warriors in Middle Earth but still..) and while dwarves are certainly capable warriors they are also extremely low on manpower, as you demonstrated in another video.
Considering the dominant threats to the free peoples in that area came from both Isengard and Dol Guldur, I suspect the remainder frolicking and causing issues in the Mountains themselves is moot. Both of those leaders would have attracted the vast majority of them, since they didn't really function well when leaderless and they knew it. How many remained in the confines of Moria? Again, we don't know. With the death of the Balrog, many no doubt harkened to the calls of Isengard and Dol Guldur as well. Another great topic my friend! Thanks!
cool vid you should do first and second age factions like numanour, the great fleet of ar farazon, nagothrond, nogrod/belegost, last alliance the Noldor and the war of wrath
I would imagine that with the Orcs only fielding around 6,000 for the Battle of the Five Armies and those virtually being annihilated in said battle, that after this during the War of the Ring I would expect there to be no more than probably half that number capable of being fielded.
@@anti-liberalismo Well remember the forces against them(Elves, Dwarves and Men) combined only numbered the following: 1000 Elf spearmen of the Woodland Realm. Several hundred elven archers. 500 or more Dwarves of the Iron Hills. 200-300 Lakemen Then the Eagles(of unspecified number) This would mean that the united forces of good would still have been outnumbered three or two to one with 6,000 but yes, it could have been as high as 9,000. I don't expect it would be higher than that for a number of reasons, remember that the Orcs of the Misty Mountains and North in general had been badly reduced by the War of the Dwarves and Orcs before this and hadn't fully recovered in numbers, so I think 10,000 or above would have been excessive. 6,000-9,000 would still be an very sizable force to field against around 2,000 enemies with a 3 or 4 to 1 advantage in numbers
There were proberly only about ten thousand. The Fellowship spent two days in Moria before they were found and that was because of Pippin. The orcs didn't find them due to there being so many, and it would likely only take a thousand orcs to overwhelm Balin's dwarves. It was likely them who attacked the Woodland Realm, and they lost.
I personally think 10 to 20 thousand is a bit to high as well the orcs suffered way to much. War of the dwarves and orcs,battle of 5 armies,Beornings keeping that one road safe,Rohans bid to destroy all orcs(it was a while back yes but still Rohan would of probably cut down many many thousands of orcs ones that wouldn't able to repopulate the misty mountains again),ect I'd personally think it would be about 3,000 to 2,000 as after all the tragedy the orcs suffered and there destructive nature I doubt the would be that strong.
Having had time to think a bit more 20,000 warriors, each has a female and a child, across 900 miles equals about 66 orcs per mile. Remember that Moria alone is made up of levels, as was Goblin Town in the Hobbit movies. Mount Gundabad, as the orc capital of the north, must be made up of levels as well, thus lessening the numbers of orcs per mile by distance. The distance between Moria and the Beornings is hundreds of miles. This again shows that they are thinned out. If we're just talking about warriors, that's 22 orcs per mile, which could be why the orcs retreated after the death of only 13 orcs. Also, that would give the orcs time to gather 100 soldiers and follow the Fellowship to Lothlorien and send out sorties of 100s to find the Fellowship by the time Merry and Pippin were captured. Enough to cause problems, but not enough to make them willing do something and be sure they would survive.
Not all orcs were warriors. There were females and those who would be left behind. Orcs would probably gather up to 50% of their population for war. The strength of the orcs in 2780 would have been around 100 000 if not more. After the war of the dwarves and orcs 10 000 would flee to Rohan, 10 000 - 20 000 would have survived in all the mountains of the North combined (Angmar, Gundabad, Moria, Misty Mountains, Grey Mountains) In the book Tolkien said the dwarves have attacked all the goblin hideouts from Mount Gundabad to the Gladden fields. So the dwarves did not cover all the area of where the orcs would be and even after that 10 000 (I believe) managed to escape to Rohan. What about the angmar mountains, Mount Gram, the grey mountains and all the caverns south from Khazad Dum. We also know that the dwarves never sacked Khazad Dum during the war so some orcs would have still been present there, protected by the balrog. Quote from Gandalf, during the hobbit. "The grey mountains were simply stiff of goblins, hobgoblins of all kinds." The orc army in the battle of the five armies would have come from gundabad, goblin town and the grey mountains, but not from Khazad Dum or the southern area of the Misty Mountains. The army size was between 10 000 - 20 000 in BTFA (25% survived - 2500 - 5000) Anyway I may be complicating things but my estimate is, that the total force the orcs from Carn Dum to Withered Health, Gundabad to Mount Methedras could have gathered for fighting would have equivalent force of that sent in the battle of the five armies, which also would have been half of their population. So my estimate is that there were 30 000 - 40 000 orcs living in the Misty Mountains right before the war of the ring. And perhaps Sauron and Saruman took 10 000 orcs from there. We also forget orcs can repopulate very quickly. The tens, if not hundreds of thousands orcs that were in Sauron's army mostly came from the Misty Mountains as they could have not come from anywhere else except for the few orc tribes living in Mordor and those we do not know about in the far East or South.
100.000 is way too much, even at the time before the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, if you speak about the Orcs of the Misty and Grey Mountains that is. You have to keep in mind these are small tribes of Orcs - food production would be low since they probably aren't much into agriculture, and raiding villages can only get you so far in the low populated areas surrounding those mountain ranges. Trading is something they probably do not know either. Also, if their population really was that high, Sauron would've taken control over them much sooner and used them to overrun Eriador and maybe even Lothlorien. No, I doubt even the largest Orc tribes within the Misty Mountains would even exceed a few thousand Orcs at any point in time after Arnor fell and Angmar was gone. It simply is unsustainable without leaders like the Witch-King or Sauron that can rule over those Orcs like gods. About the Battle of the Five Armies: my estimates would actually be much, much lower. More like 5.000 Orcs _at most._ 20.000 Orcs at that battle would've meant they were outnumbering the coalition by 1 to 10 - odds that rival the hopelessness of the Battle of the Black Gate - maybe even more. Tolkien never threw around with numbers, and numbers like you see in the movies wouldn't even cross his mind. Conservative army sizes and populations are the rule in Middle-Earth. Sauron's armies have been building up in Mordor since the fall of Minas Ithil, a thousand years before the War of the Ring. Which is plenty of time to build up a farming economy around the Sea of Nurnen and build armies that can be sustained by said economy, in addition to the tributes send from the East and South. I really like Darth's analysis about numbers. He really shows his knowledge about Middle-Earth and incorportates the fact that Middle-Earth is world with a very, very low population. My own estimates might even be more conservative compared to his, but I will always commend him on his realistic approach in his videos.
@UC929hBoWCLPMap6OqmdVPMg What exactly is "heavily outnumbered"? I would argue 1v2 already is worthy of that notion. Also, can you give me the quote that the Orcs were innumerable? Can't seem to find it in my book. You're not being realistic. You're only looking at army sized. How would a Dwarven city sustain itself? Tolkien gave the answer: Men would live at their kingdoms (like Erebor and Dale), and a trade relationship would exist, enhancing them both. But this would mean those Men needed to outnumber the Dwarves by _a lot_, since they would provide the food for the Dwarven kingdoms to exist, while supplying their own society too. Having large Dwarven populations simply doesn't add up. A few thousand Dwarves even in their largest settlements sounds about right. Also, you don't simply take a Dwarves fortress by force. If you have just a few gates and your walls are a literal mountain, and even then you build contraptions like the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, you don't really need a large army to defend your settlements. Also, there aren't hundreds of thousands of Elves in Middle-Earth anymore. Do you really think Rivendell - which is called the Last Homely Home, so a single building - could sustain a population of thousands? No, I think it had a few hundred Elves living there. Lindon would be a bit more populous, but the Noldor were almost all gone from Middle-Earth. That leaves us with The Silvan Elves in Lorien and Mirkwood. Well, these Elves are living in forests with little room for aggriculture, so they also wouldn't have been able to sustain populations of tens of thousands. They both could field armies of a few thousand most likely, but many Elves probably learned to fight too. Tolkien probably has more respect for Dwarves than anyone - just look up how he reacted at Disney's depiction of Snow White. A full-fletched race doesn't need to be strong in numbers, especially not if said race is mythical. After all, is the myths of old we also don't see such numbers. You are _not_ expanding on his stories. You are just ignoring parts of it to implement your own ideas. Expanding on a story would mean you would take the source, study it in great detail and then add elements to it, without changing anything already written. Tolkien once wrote: _If details are to be added to an already crowded picture, they should at least fit the world described._ (Letter 210) If you just implement your own visions without any sense of the original work, you're just destroying it. After all, then you get one story where Elves are in decline and almost gone from Middle-Earth, while in the next story which is set in the same time period Elves field armies of tens of thousands. this makes the world totally unbelievable and defies everything Tolkien strifed to do in his works. I don't care about the Middle-Earth you have in your head, because that's your thing, and you may enjoy it anyway you want. However, to use the things you're building up in your head in a discussion is another matter. Here we must use the lowest common denominator, which is what Tolkien wrote. After all, this is his world - and also the video is about the books (which makes the subject clear). If nobody respects those boundaries anymore, discussions cannot be held. Analysing works would be totally impossible. Why? Because if every view of Middle-Earth is worth as much as what Tolkien wrote, what value does Middle-Earth even have? It's just an inconsistent mess at that point, which isn't even worth looking into. After all, inconsistencies are the mortal enemy of fantasy worlds.
@@MasterBombadillo You are quite right about your analysis. I respect your knowledge on Tolkien's writing and your arguments. I made the post more out of emotion, I understand the books are his story alone. I instantly deleted my last comment after I made it, didn't expect you to see it. Yes, Darth Gandalf is accurate on his estimates that's why I like to watch his videos as well.
100k is way to big in my opinion. We know that the dwarves were like hand sanitizer and wiped out ALOT of orcs being very careful to not let any escape and this probably spelled doom for the orcs as the dwarves are some of the most stubborn and ruthless people you will ever meet. They encircled a dragon and even when there king was crushed not only did they fight on but the king stabbed the dragon before he died(these were dwarves from Belegost and nogrod but the dwarves from Belegost and nogrod went to Khaza-dum 20 years after beleriands destruction I've seen some people say that these cities were destroyed but they were merely abandoned in the 2nd age). I'd personally estimate there are only 2,000 orc soldiers in the misty mountains left. That would emply a population of 30k. The orcs of the misty mountains just suffered to many blows throughout the ages to even be a threat to Eriador in the 3rd age wich only had the military power of Lindon. The shire despite there being no arnor to protect it they still lived in peace for several decades. The orcs also have a very self destructive nature unless ruled by a dark lord or something the raids kept the orcs of the misty mountains population stable and even allowed it to thrive. After the dwarves they simply didn't have enough orcs nor any leader to help them recover and thus fell further and further until they were of no threat even to the lands of Eriador wich don't have any true military powers except for Lindon but Lindon was not necessarily on the defense from these orcs nor was even the shire on the defensive in some way shape or form. So my best guess is to say that they would only have 2,000 fighting orcs with a population of 30k.
I think you underestimate how quickly orcs breed. Its been 60 years since the battle of five armies. More than enough time to replenish and there have been no further purges. There may be more in total than before. But they are spreading everywhere like a plague, as you said. Many were certainly enticed by Sauron and Saruman. But one should not underestimate how much orcs subconsciously hate Sauron, even his own. Without his Ring, his power over them is not absolute. Also if one thing can keep orcs from flocking to one dark overlord, its another. One should not underestimate the influence of the Balrog. That thing is intelligent and ought to have some influence on orcs. And i deem it likely that he kept many orcs from working for Sauron. Perhaps he was ready to deal with Saruman but certanly not Sauron. Otherwise he'd certainly rather spare his orcs numbers for another war, he awaits the awakening of his brothers and the Return of Morgoth after all. Would be pretty dumb to have no army when that occurs. I doubt he respected Sauron much, since the last thing he remembers about Sauron before his hibernation isn't exactly positive. He remembers Sauron being a known failure that lost to mere men time and time again, costing Morgoth a Silmaril and the City of Minas Tirith.The Balrogs were beneath Sauron in the hierachy but none of them fucked up like that. They fell to the likes of Fingolfin or Glorfindel but not men. Not to mention that he is a known coward for surrendering the city to stay alive and a deserter for not rejoining Morgoths forces for the remainder of the first age. For all we know, the Balrog has standing orders to kill Sauron on sight. He had every opportunity to help Morgoth return, when he was at the height of his power but rather assumed the antle of dark lord himself. That he did not do it makes him a twice-fold traitor. All in all, the agenda of the Balrog is to wait for Morgoth to return from the void. Sauron is nothing but a rival at this point and the one ring returning to Sauron would not further this at all. If anything its destruction would send Sauron to his rightful punishment at Morgoths hands. So i dare say the Balrog kept a good portion of the Orks in Moria.
They weren't exterminated persay. They still had Orcs. But I'd say, they used to have a million or two. Maybe more. By the war of the rings they may of only numbered around, 20 or 40 thousand orcs? Far cry from millions they may of used to have. Gray mountains if included. They got decimated.
@@anti-liberalismo I mean, civilians aren't the same as soldiers. Persia has 15 million citizens but only 650.000 soldiers in 5 armies. High thousands isn't a sustainable population. Just the number of soldiers
The misty mountain mobile phone company happened and many turned into the equivalent of humans phone zombie ! War vs consumer brain conditioning no contest !
Great analysis, as usual. However, I have to correct a tiny mistake: Grishnakh wasn't from the Misty Mountains. There were three factions with different goals in that band of Orcs: Ugluk wanted to take the Hobbits to Isengard, and was the strongest faction of the three. The weakest faction was that from Moria, which was probably a group of Orcs still chasing the Fellowship around to avenge their captain. The last one was Grishnakh's company, who were from Mordor with orders directly from a Nazgul (probably the one Legolas shot) to capture the hobbits and bring them to Mordor, also alive. Later, Aragorn commented this about Grishnakh.
_‘All this about the Orcs of Barad-dûr, Lugbúrz as they call it, makes me uneasy,’ said Aragorn. ‘The Dark Lord already knew too much, and his servants also; and Grishnákh evidently sent some message across the River after the quarrel. The Red Eye will be looking towards Isengard. But Saruman at any rate is in a cleft stick of his own cutting.’_ - TTT Book 3 Chapter 9.
Is that so? I did read the passage before making this video. I wasn't aware that Grishnakh and the Moria Orcs were two different factions. I just assumed Grishnakh was leading a band of Moria Orcs that were in service to Sauron. Thanks for the correction.
Hey everyone. I took a short break so I didn't get burned out. I hope you enjoy this video.
I like penguins
@@sanin3213 calculate the circumference of the Sun
@@hafeezimran8842 it's 7
@@sanin3213 🐧🐧🐧
@@tominiowa2513 I agree :)
I always felt the lack of numbers in Tolkien's writings. Your videos help us get deeper understanding of the size of that world.
My theory on this exact question has for a while been that the Moria, Goblintown and Mount Gundabad Orc/Goblin populations, were about 10,000-20,000 across the entire span of the Hithaeglir, with the largest number being within Moria and the second largest being at Mount Gundabad. I think the Goblins that attacked Balin's Colony up the Dimrill Dale, were sent from elsewhere in the Misty Mountains.
Khazad-Dûm is a very big place, being beneath 3 mountains peaks and extending down many levels for miles. So I'm sure even 10,000 Goblins could seem quite thin on the ground if they were spread out around that expanse in smaller groups. Of course in the films it seems their numbers are vast and they are crawling all over Dwarrowdelf, literally. However, in all fairness here Moria is a very big place, and even the Goblins the Fellowship encountered, were likely just the localised battalions they ran into.
As for Goblintown, it is much harder to be sure, though I reckon several thousand must have constituted it's true strength to be a real threat to High Pass. Meanwhile, at Mount Gundabad, perhaps 5,000-6,000 Gundabad Orcs remained? It is hard to know of course. I still reckon that in spite of serious losses in the Battle of the Five Armies, that they would have recovered to a large extent. After all, they already _did_ recover in between the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, and the events of the Battle of the Five Armies and Quest for Erebor. I know that was a longer time span but still.
All told, I think about 10,000 Gundabad Orcs were around during the events of The Hobbit, whereas later on they were much reduced. We know that the Battle of Azanulbizar in TA 2799 involved at least 20,000 Orcs Moria and Gundabad Orcs, and probably Goblintown ones too considering the Dwarves supposedly cleared them out in a purging/genocidal campaign up and down the mountains. The suggestion was that the last of the Hithaeglir Orcs rallied at Moria, daring the Dwarves to come in after them. That said, perhaps some Goblins simply fled to Goblintown and hid there. I have a feeling we should differentiate between Goblintown Goblins and those from the rest of the Misty Mountains.
The main reason for this is because the Goblintown Goblins seem far more ancient and skulking than the other Orcs and/or Goblins of the Misty Mountains - and because more importantly, they _recognise Glamdring and Orcrist_ which proves that a good proportion of them had to have been as old as the First Age. On first sight, the Goblins are shown to be terrified of ''Foehammer'' and ''Orc/Goblin Cleaver'' (Glamdring and Orcrist, respectively) The last time they would have seen or heard of their use to be so scared of them, would have been the Wars of Beleriand in the First Age (particularly concerning the battles in which the Gondolodrim/Gondolinodhrim were involved, including of course the Fall of Gondolin)
King Turgon must have made them pay a heavy price with Glamdring (though whom bore Orcrist is unknown, but it must have been someone who inflicted severe losses on them with it) Described as the 'mate' of Glamdring, then perhaps it was a secondary sword of King Turgon or that of one of his royal guards? In any case, the fact that a stinky relic population of Goblintown Goblins instantly recognised those swords on sight, around 6,000 years after they must have last seen them, says a whole lot about both those particular Goblins as well as of course the Elven blades. Gondolin PTSD flashbacks for the Goblins I think...
Anyway, it proves that at least some of them are extremely ancient (likely far older than most if not all of the Gundabad Orcs and Moria Orcs/Goblins) If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say Goblintown was more of a refuge for the older line of Goblins. Clearly, the Peter Jackson trilogy made them very different to both the Moria and Gundabad Orcs, and in both of his trilogies, a concerted and passionate effort was put into establishing recognisable themes and aesthetic differences between each and every group. Suffice it to say I think it's likely they managed to evade the Dwarves in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs.
Maybe 3,000-4,000 hide out there and aren't interested in getting wiped out by the Dwarves, so just provide a local threat to travellers in and around High Pass, though are not seen elsewhere. As far as I'm aware, Thrain and Thorin didn't purge Goblintown during that war. Probably purged everything else and drove the survivors of the other (mostly unnamed) strongholds out, and forced them into a last stand at Moria. Could be wrong but that would explain why Goblintown seems so isolated and untouched.
Now, we know that even when defeated by the Dwarves (albeit at an appalling, near ruinous cost for the Dwarves and Dúrin's Folk) many Orcs escaped into Rohan where they caused problems for the Rohirrim as you mentioned. The Rohirrim did defeat them (technically twice; the first time thinking they'd wiped them out, the 2nd time avenging the King slain by an Orc archer at Dunharrow) They were trying to infest the Ered Nimrais/White Mountains, but Rohan stopped them (and I'd like to think in my own ''headcanon'' or whatever the term is, that any the Rohirrim didn't kill, ended up getting slaughtered inside the Paths of the Dead near to Dunharrow, when desperate enough to go inside, though I have absolutely zero evidence for that. I just like the idea of a few wandering in there and not coming back out for obvious reasons. After all, they killed a Prince of Rohan for going in there so why not Orcs? We do know they did go to Dunharrow so if the shoe fits...)
Exactly how many Orc survivors from Azanulbizar went South into Rohan is unknown. I'd speculate at least a couple of thousand or more. Maybe there were considerably more than 20,000 Orcs at Azanulbizar (which would account for why the Dwarven death toll was quite so huge) They were vaguely said to be twice the number of the Dwarves, which would be about 20,000 - but even if just 10% of that figure was added on the top estimate, 22,000 would be a lot tougher army to deal with even with just a 10% difference. 2,000 Orcs is still 2,000 Orcs. Maybe there were as many as 25,000 plus there. Who knows. We know enough fled North to reconstitute a viable population at Mount Gundabad and another group to later become the Moria Goblins. So, yeah, I think by the War of the Ring there _had_ to be at least 10,000 Orcs up and down the Hithaeglir, not including the ones Saruman used for his purposes of making the new Uruk-Hai of Isengard (and yes I know Sauron made Uruks first long before, I'm just referring to Saruman's Uruks)
Strategically, it'd make a lot of sense as to why Rivendell's mighty Elves, were pretty much forced to stay home constantly, bar a few excursions by Elrond, Glorfindel, Gwindor, Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen, because they were strategically marked to the North by Mount Gundabad. *Ultimately, Sauron called upon the Easterlings of Rhûn to take Erebor in the War of the Ring* not Mount Gundabad's Orcs.
Presumably, Sauron knew they were not strong enough anymore to take Erebor, though was content with keeping Rivendell marked from Gundabad by whatever they had left there? As depleted as they were, surely over half a century of recovery since the Battle of the Five Armies would see their ranks return to something of their former strength? Maybe 5,000 ish? Makes sense. Enough to constantly threaten Rivendell, but not enough to threaten Erebor and Dale.
P.S - Grishnákh and his company of Orcs were sent from Mordor, probably from Barad-Dûr itself (the Orcs called it Lugbúrz) He was threatening to report the actions of the Misty Mountains Orcs and Isengard Uruks back to Barad-Dûr. Seems he was an Orc captain from Barad-Dûr.
Damm bro, you wrote a whole freaking essay
@@joshbence8006 essay
you deserve way more subs, screw the algorithm
Yeah, the fact that the orcs of Moria posed a threat to the Fellowship and managed to destroy Balin's colony does not necessarily mean that they were that powerful. The Fellowship were only nine people (half of them were among the greatest warriors in Middle Earth but still..) and while dwarves are certainly capable warriors they are also extremely low on manpower, as you demonstrated in another video.
Considering the dominant threats to the free peoples in that area came from both Isengard and Dol Guldur, I suspect the remainder frolicking and causing issues in the Mountains themselves is moot. Both of those leaders would have attracted the vast majority of them, since they didn't really function well when leaderless and they knew it.
How many remained in the confines of Moria? Again, we don't know. With the death of the Balrog, many no doubt harkened to the calls of Isengard and Dol Guldur as well.
Another great topic my friend! Thanks!
cool vid you should do first and second age factions like numanour, the great fleet of ar farazon, nagothrond, nogrod/belegost, last alliance the Noldor and the war of wrath
I would imagine that with the Orcs only fielding around 6,000 for the Battle of the Five Armies and those virtually being annihilated in said battle, that after this during the War of the Ring I would expect there to be no more than probably half that number capable of being fielded.
6000 is way too low, i would say between 10000 to 15000, for even with the eagles the allies could not win
@@anti-liberalismo Well remember the forces against them(Elves, Dwarves and Men) combined only numbered the following:
1000 Elf spearmen of the Woodland Realm. Several hundred elven archers.
500 or more Dwarves of the Iron Hills.
200-300 Lakemen
Then the Eagles(of unspecified number)
This would mean that the united forces of good would still have been outnumbered three or two to one with 6,000 but yes, it could have been as high as 9,000. I don't expect it would be higher than that for a number of reasons, remember that the Orcs of the Misty Mountains and North in general had been badly reduced by the War of the Dwarves and Orcs before this and hadn't fully recovered in numbers, so I think 10,000 or above would have been excessive. 6,000-9,000 would still be an very sizable force to field against around 2,000 enemies with a 3 or 4 to 1 advantage in numbers
can you make a video about the top ten largest battles in middle earth's history
yes! great video as usual
There were proberly only about ten thousand. The Fellowship spent two days in Moria before they were found and that was because of Pippin. The orcs didn't find them due to there being so many, and it would likely only take a thousand orcs to overwhelm Balin's dwarves. It was likely them who attacked the Woodland Realm, and they lost.
I personally think 10 to 20 thousand is a bit to high as well the orcs suffered way to much.
War of the dwarves and orcs,battle of 5 armies,Beornings keeping that one road safe,Rohans bid to destroy all orcs(it was a while back yes but still Rohan would of probably cut down many many thousands of orcs ones that wouldn't able to repopulate the misty mountains again),ect
I'd personally think it would be about 3,000 to 2,000 as after all the tragedy the orcs suffered and there destructive nature I doubt the would be that strong.
But Sauron could have sent more orcs to the misty mountains, and could be forced to mass reproduce
They fought against both Thranduil and Galadriel' husband and were defeated, plus Dol gudal was finally leveled by Galadriel.
Having had time to think a bit more 20,000 warriors, each has a female and a child, across 900 miles equals about 66 orcs per mile. Remember that Moria alone is made up of levels, as was Goblin Town in the Hobbit movies. Mount Gundabad, as the orc capital of the north, must be made up of levels as well, thus lessening the numbers of orcs per mile by distance. The distance between Moria and the Beornings is hundreds of miles. This again shows that they are thinned out.
If we're just talking about warriors, that's 22 orcs per mile, which could be why the orcs retreated after the death of only 13 orcs. Also, that would give the orcs time to gather 100 soldiers and follow the Fellowship to Lothlorien and send out sorties of 100s to find the Fellowship by the time Merry and Pippin were captured.
Enough to cause problems, but not enough to make them willing do something and be sure they would survive.
2:50 What does "three parts perished" mean? Referring to what? Four parts, i. e. three-fourths? Three-fifths?
75% in this instance
Not all orcs were warriors. There were females and those who would be left behind. Orcs would probably gather up to 50% of their population for war.
The strength of the orcs in 2780 would have been around 100 000 if not more. After the war of the dwarves and orcs 10 000 would flee to Rohan, 10 000 - 20 000 would have survived in all the mountains of the North combined (Angmar, Gundabad, Moria, Misty Mountains, Grey Mountains)
In the book Tolkien said the dwarves have attacked all the goblin hideouts from Mount Gundabad to the Gladden fields. So the dwarves did not cover all the area of where the orcs would be and even after that
10 000 (I believe) managed to escape to Rohan.
What about the angmar mountains, Mount Gram, the grey mountains and all the caverns south from Khazad Dum. We also know that the dwarves never sacked Khazad Dum during the war so some orcs would have still been present there, protected by the balrog.
Quote from Gandalf, during the hobbit. "The grey mountains were simply stiff of goblins, hobgoblins of all kinds."
The orc army in the battle of the five armies would have come from gundabad, goblin town and the grey mountains, but not from Khazad Dum or the southern area of the Misty Mountains.
The army size was between 10 000 - 20 000 in BTFA (25% survived - 2500 - 5000)
Anyway I may be complicating things but my estimate is, that the total force the orcs from Carn Dum to Withered Health, Gundabad to Mount Methedras could have gathered for fighting would have equivalent force of that sent in the battle of the five armies, which also would have been half of their population. So my estimate is that there were 30 000 - 40 000 orcs living in the Misty Mountains right before the war of the ring. And perhaps Sauron and Saruman took 10 000 orcs from there.
We also forget orcs can repopulate very quickly. The tens, if not hundreds of thousands orcs that were in Sauron's army mostly came from the Misty Mountains as they could have not come from anywhere else except for the few orc tribes living in Mordor and those we do not know about in the far East or South.
100.000 is way too much, even at the time before the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, if you speak about the Orcs of the Misty and Grey Mountains that is. You have to keep in mind these are small tribes of Orcs - food production would be low since they probably aren't much into agriculture, and raiding villages can only get you so far in the low populated areas surrounding those mountain ranges. Trading is something they probably do not know either. Also, if their population really was that high, Sauron would've taken control over them much sooner and used them to overrun Eriador and maybe even Lothlorien.
No, I doubt even the largest Orc tribes within the Misty Mountains would even exceed a few thousand Orcs at any point in time after Arnor fell and Angmar was gone. It simply is unsustainable without leaders like the Witch-King or Sauron that can rule over those Orcs like gods.
About the Battle of the Five Armies: my estimates would actually be much, much lower. More like 5.000 Orcs _at most._ 20.000 Orcs at that battle would've meant they were outnumbering the coalition by 1 to 10 - odds that rival the hopelessness of the Battle of the Black Gate - maybe even more. Tolkien never threw around with numbers, and numbers like you see in the movies wouldn't even cross his mind. Conservative army sizes and populations are the rule in Middle-Earth.
Sauron's armies have been building up in Mordor since the fall of Minas Ithil, a thousand years before the War of the Ring. Which is plenty of time to build up a farming economy around the Sea of Nurnen and build armies that can be sustained by said economy, in addition to the tributes send from the East and South.
I really like Darth's analysis about numbers. He really shows his knowledge about Middle-Earth and incorportates the fact that Middle-Earth is world with a very, very low population. My own estimates might even be more conservative compared to his, but I will always commend him on his realistic approach in his videos.
@UC929hBoWCLPMap6OqmdVPMg What exactly is "heavily outnumbered"? I would argue 1v2 already is worthy of that notion. Also, can you give me the quote that the Orcs were innumerable? Can't seem to find it in my book.
You're not being realistic. You're only looking at army sized. How would a Dwarven city sustain itself? Tolkien gave the answer: Men would live at their kingdoms (like Erebor and Dale), and a trade relationship would exist, enhancing them both. But this would mean those Men needed to outnumber the Dwarves by _a lot_, since they would provide the food for the Dwarven kingdoms to exist, while supplying their own society too. Having large Dwarven populations simply doesn't add up. A few thousand Dwarves even in their largest settlements sounds about right. Also, you don't simply take a Dwarves fortress by force. If you have just a few gates and your walls are a literal mountain, and even then you build contraptions like the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, you don't really need a large army to defend your settlements.
Also, there aren't hundreds of thousands of Elves in Middle-Earth anymore. Do you really think Rivendell - which is called the Last Homely Home, so a single building - could sustain a population of thousands? No, I think it had a few hundred Elves living there. Lindon would be a bit more populous, but the Noldor were almost all gone from Middle-Earth. That leaves us with The Silvan Elves in Lorien and Mirkwood. Well, these Elves are living in forests with little room for aggriculture, so they also wouldn't have been able to sustain populations of tens of thousands. They both could field armies of a few thousand most likely, but many Elves probably learned to fight too.
Tolkien probably has more respect for Dwarves than anyone - just look up how he reacted at Disney's depiction of Snow White. A full-fletched race doesn't need to be strong in numbers, especially not if said race is mythical. After all, is the myths of old we also don't see such numbers.
You are _not_ expanding on his stories. You are just ignoring parts of it to implement your own ideas. Expanding on a story would mean you would take the source, study it in great detail and then add elements to it, without changing anything already written.
Tolkien once wrote: _If details are to be added to an already crowded picture, they should at least fit the world described._ (Letter 210)
If you just implement your own visions without any sense of the original work, you're just destroying it. After all, then you get one story where Elves are in decline and almost gone from Middle-Earth, while in the next story which is set in the same time period Elves field armies of tens of thousands. this makes the world totally unbelievable and defies everything Tolkien strifed to do in his works. I don't care about the Middle-Earth you have in your head, because that's your thing, and you may enjoy it anyway you want. However, to use the things you're building up in your head in a discussion is another matter. Here we must use the lowest common denominator, which is what Tolkien wrote. After all, this is his world - and also the video is about the books (which makes the subject clear). If nobody respects those boundaries anymore, discussions cannot be held. Analysing works would be totally impossible. Why? Because if every view of Middle-Earth is worth as much as what Tolkien wrote, what value does Middle-Earth even have? It's just an inconsistent mess at that point, which isn't even worth looking into. After all, inconsistencies are the mortal enemy of fantasy worlds.
@@MasterBombadillo
You are quite right about your analysis. I respect your knowledge on Tolkien's writing and your arguments. I made the post more out of emotion, I understand the books are his story alone. I instantly deleted my last comment after I made it, didn't expect you to see it.
Yes, Darth Gandalf is accurate on his estimates that's why I like to watch his videos as well.
100k is way to big in my opinion.
We know that the dwarves were like hand sanitizer and wiped out ALOT of orcs being very careful to not let any escape and this probably spelled doom for the orcs as the dwarves are some of the most stubborn and ruthless people you will ever meet.
They encircled a dragon and even when there king was crushed not only did they fight on but the king stabbed the dragon before he died(these were dwarves from Belegost and nogrod but the dwarves from Belegost and nogrod went to Khaza-dum 20 years after beleriands destruction I've seen some people say that these cities were destroyed but they were merely abandoned in the 2nd age).
I'd personally estimate there are only 2,000 orc soldiers in the misty mountains left.
That would emply a population of 30k.
The orcs of the misty mountains just suffered to many blows throughout the ages to even be a threat to Eriador in the 3rd age wich only had the military power of Lindon.
The shire despite there being no arnor to protect it they still lived in peace for several decades.
The orcs also have a very self destructive nature unless ruled by a dark lord or something the raids kept the orcs of the misty mountains population stable and even allowed it to thrive.
After the dwarves they simply didn't have enough orcs nor any leader to help them recover and thus fell further and further until they were of no threat even to the lands of Eriador wich don't have any true military powers except for Lindon but Lindon was not necessarily on the defense from these orcs nor was even the shire on the defensive in some way shape or form.
So my best guess is to say that they would only have 2,000 fighting orcs with a population of 30k.
I think you underestimate how quickly orcs breed. Its been 60 years since the battle of five armies. More than enough time to replenish and there have been no further purges. There may be more in total than before. But they are spreading everywhere like a plague, as you said. Many were certainly enticed by Sauron and Saruman. But one should not underestimate how much orcs subconsciously hate Sauron, even his own. Without his Ring, his power over them is not absolute. Also if one thing can keep orcs from flocking to one dark overlord, its another. One should not underestimate the influence of the Balrog. That thing is intelligent and ought to have some influence on orcs. And i deem it likely that he kept many orcs from working for Sauron. Perhaps he was ready to deal with Saruman but certanly not Sauron. Otherwise he'd certainly rather spare his orcs numbers for another war, he awaits the awakening of his brothers and the Return of Morgoth after all. Would be pretty dumb to have no army when that occurs. I doubt he respected Sauron much, since the last thing he remembers about Sauron before his hibernation isn't exactly positive. He remembers Sauron being a known failure that lost to mere men time and time again, costing Morgoth a Silmaril and the City of Minas Tirith.The Balrogs were beneath Sauron in the hierachy but none of them fucked up like that. They fell to the likes of Fingolfin or Glorfindel but not men. Not to mention that he is a known coward for surrendering the city to stay alive and a deserter for not rejoining Morgoths forces for the remainder of the first age. For all we know, the Balrog has standing orders to kill Sauron on sight. He had every opportunity to help Morgoth return, when he was at the height of his power but rather assumed the antle of dark lord himself. That he did not do it makes him a twice-fold traitor. All in all, the agenda of the Balrog is to wait for Morgoth to return from the void. Sauron is nothing but a rival at this point and the one ring returning to Sauron would not further this at all. If anything its destruction would send Sauron to his rightful punishment at Morgoths hands. So i dare say the Balrog kept a good portion of the Orks in Moria.
ALL I WANT IS A PROPER MODERN TRIPLE A LOTR MMO!
They weren't exterminated persay.
They still had Orcs. But I'd say, they used to have a million or two. Maybe more.
By the war of the rings they may of only numbered around, 20 or 40 thousand orcs? Far cry from millions they may of used to have.
Gray mountains if included.
They got decimated.
decimated would mean that only 10% of them perished tho
@@gandiikovec6436 You know your Romans 👌🏼
@@Crafty_Spirit thanks :D
Millions is waaay too far, maybe high tens of thousands at the absolute maximum by their peak
@@anti-liberalismo I mean, civilians aren't the same as soldiers. Persia has 15 million citizens but only 650.000 soldiers in 5 armies.
High thousands isn't a sustainable population. Just the number of soldiers
Hey could you please do video about who would win in star wars vs the lord of the ring. thanks i do enjoy the contnet
The misty mountain mobile phone company happened and many turned into the equivalent of humans phone zombie ! War vs consumer brain conditioning no contest !
And instead of cave trolls, the orcs kept Internet trolls for company. 😂
Because they were dead
of stomach cancer
Mazarbul.
What's with you people, it's not er-RHEE-uh-dor, it's er-rhee-AH-dor.