My take based on me being able to hit good distance with the stop and hit drill (i used to be an over connected swayer which helps!) is that that with ground pressure and using bigger muscle groups, they are able to bend/load the shaft on the downswing and release this energy through the ball producing speed and stable club without having to rely on using arms/ wrists to produce speed
@@GolfCoachDrNoel Jim Hardy does talk about one plane vs two plane swing approaches. I was thinking more about Todd Graves who works with the Moe Norman one-plane swing method. But your thoughts on either would be very illuminating. 🙂🙂🙂
I might try some of this, as soon as I have thousands of hours to practice timing it all up perfectly to achieve a tour swing. Lots of stuff going on here in my opinion.
If I remember correctly, if you look at David Leadbetter’s Book the Golf Swing from the 1980’s, you will find an illustration of a speedboat pulling a water skier.
I get the concept of the hands going in a circle with clubhead trailing behind the hands. The clubhead flings out as the hands slow down. What makes the hands slow down is it the clubhead head flinging out. What initiates the club flinging out if the hand initially are still accelerating. Chicken and egg.
Very good! I have often wondered the same thing. Is it the deceleration of the handle as per the video or does the club fling out due to other torques applied to handle via the hands or the chest rotating? My view is that there are multiple toques that golfers put on the club that are out of their awareness (and do difficult to measure ATM and that pattern (torque profile) is what makes swing changes so difficult.
Great question! The bad 'over-extension' in the backswing is when the spine tilts back towards the target. When coaches talk about extension in the finish it is more about the pelvis moving forward and up. Again, it can be overdone but it is not quite the same stress on the spine. You don't have extension and rotation to the same levels.
You’re right. That was his thing when he was with Tiger. He has done a 180 on that now. I guess from the advise of biomechanics. I know he spends a lot of time with Dr Mark Bull.
Yeah, that wasn't a good period for Tiger. All a bit Mack/Stack for my liking. In defence of Foley, I can't imagine that Tiger was an open book. He would have brought a lot of the ideas himself, one would think. Foley certainly doesn't coach those principles now. I guess there were lessons learned. I have learnt loads from taking the wrong route with students. They just weren't the greatest player that ever lived 😯
Covens swing is more vertical and wrist finish and Foley is horizontal and flat with a forced flat horizontal lag……Cowan pulls vertically down and Foley pulls horizontally across I prefer a single plane swing
Yes, see my comment above. Those are not the principles he coaches now and certainly not the ones in this video. Football managers do it all the time: They fail with one club, get the sack and then get a massive contract with another. How does that work. The fact that Foley and Tiger remained friends makes me think that the technical direction wasn't driven by Foley.
@@GolfCoachDrNoelYep, that's what happens when a coach tries to coach a system instead of the player. Most players have things they do incredibly well and only need tweaking. I remember it took Tiger a year to implement one of Harmon's changes. This from one of the most athletic golfers to every play the game. When egos get in the way, you are no longer an effective coach.....
Always well presented and measured information. Sometimes we have to learn what we don’t need to proceed to what works best- Not exactly a quick fix for all things. I think you explain Foleys concepts better than he did😮
@@GolfCoachDrNoel I am 52 and note that there was no youtube for the early part of my life - majority indeed. The ability to watch people like foley and cowan do their stuff is an unbelievable resource and there are videos of them teaching average players ( ok not beginners ) but I feel that if I had these resources when young, i would have benefited hugely regardless of the fact that they train top pros..... they focus mainly on basic movement of the body which applies to all players. The sean foley video with Piers and Andy where he talks about the swing reflecting your walking style..... that is so informative.... there is a clip of how Mcilroy glides when he walks.. effortless.. and his swing reflects that... - basic body movement.
@@GolfCoachDrNoel My current battle. Lots of things seem to be less "timing" dependent for me without all the head movement when I go the S&T route. Not sure I can see why the "excessive spine extension" would be any more unhealthy than all the other crazy moves in the golf swing. 🙂 I've also found the opposite about the path with it. It makes me so much more inclined to come from the inside that I've had to move the ball far forward in my stance to counteract it. Anyway, I'm using a "club data" launch monitor and it's rarely the path that is the defining issue. The face is the challenge. I experimented a *lot* with various patterns of consciously opening and closing it after watching a couple of your videos. Learned a lot, but concluded that a light grip and "slinging" it and "allowing" it to square up works best (for me). And *that* seems dependendent on that left hip getting up and back and *that* seems largely dependent on getting enough side bend coming down. AAMOF, that reminds me that thinking of starting down via side bend is the closest I can come to that pump drill of Rose's, and *that* also seems to match up with that center of mass thing being behind the hands at P6 about which you spoke. Was shocked to finally find myself in such a position on the DTL camera recently. 🙂 Oh, and pause and poise sound very similar. 🙂 Fun to hear about your particular struggles. You sound human. This *is* a crazy game.
A brilliant analysis and sequence, wow this is the best. Thanks Noel,Robbie.
My take based on me being able to hit good distance with the stop and hit drill (i used to be an over connected swayer which helps!) is that that with ground pressure and using bigger muscle groups, they are able to bend/load the shaft on the downswing and release this energy through the ball producing speed and stable club without having to rely on using arms/ wrists to produce speed
Would be great to hear your thoughts on two other swing systems - stack & tilt and the one-plane swing.
Ooh! That’s a good shout. Is the one plane swing Jim Hardy’s 2005 book? I remember reading it back then but ’d need to do some research on that one.
@@GolfCoachDrNoel Jim Hardy does talk about one plane vs two plane swing approaches. I was thinking more about Todd Graves who works with the Moe Norman one-plane swing method. But your thoughts on either would be very illuminating. 🙂🙂🙂
I might try some of this, as soon as I have thousands of hours to practice timing it all up perfectly to achieve a tour swing. Lots of stuff going on here in my opinion.
How would you be able to hit a fade with this swing? Only push fades?
Yes, I guess so. Maybe balm position adjustments, stack & tilt style
If I remember correctly, if you look at David Leadbetter’s Book the Golf Swing from the 1980’s, you will find an illustration of a speedboat pulling a water skier.
No way? Is the analogy the same do you remember? I need to cover Leadbetter next, and maybe Butch. That would be an interesting combo.
I get the concept of the hands going in a circle with clubhead trailing behind the hands. The clubhead flings out as the hands slow down.
What makes the hands slow down is it the clubhead head flinging out.
What initiates the club flinging out if the hand initially are still accelerating.
Chicken and egg.
Very good! I have often wondered the same thing. Is it the deceleration of the handle as per the video or does the club fling out due to other torques applied to handle via the hands or the chest rotating? My view is that there are multiple toques that golfers put on the club that are out of their awareness (and do difficult to measure ATM and that pattern (torque profile) is what makes swing changes so difficult.
why extension in the back swing bad but good in the forward swing?
Great question! The bad 'over-extension' in the backswing is when the spine tilts back towards the target. When coaches talk about extension in the finish it is more about the pelvis moving forward and up. Again, it can be overdone but it is not quite the same stress on the spine. You don't have extension and rotation to the same levels.
Allow head to move? Didn’t foley teach the stack and tilt method?
You’re right. That was his thing when he was with Tiger. He has done a 180 on that now. I guess from the advise of biomechanics. I know he spends a lot of time with Dr Mark Bull.
He really did a good job of breaking Tiger's golf swing.
Yeah, that wasn't a good period for Tiger. All a bit Mack/Stack for my liking. In defence of Foley, I can't imagine that Tiger was an open book. He would have brought a lot of the ideas himself, one would think.
Foley certainly doesn't coach those principles now. I guess there were lessons learned. I have learnt loads from taking the wrong route with students. They just weren't the greatest player that ever lived 😯
Yea, tinkering and tampering with a tour players swing can be asking for self destruct.
another difference is it looks like sean foley carries a man bag and pete cowen does not.
🤣🤣🤣 Brilliant! I missed that opportunity. I assumed it was a camera bag or had some high tec device in.
😂😂😂
😂😂
Should go out and buy new rainbow golf bags?
Fogey and Coventry both top notch but check out graig Hanson top class golf he's the business
I have not seen anyone better than Craig.
Covens swing is more vertical and wrist finish and Foley is horizontal and flat with a forced flat horizontal lag……Cowan pulls vertically down and Foley pulls horizontally across
I prefer a single plane swing
All I remember about Sean Foley is he's the guy that ruined Tiger's swing. Not going down that road.......
Yes, see my comment above. Those are not the principles he coaches now and certainly not the ones in this video. Football managers do it all the time: They fail with one club, get the sack and then get a massive contract with another. How does that work.
The fact that Foley and Tiger remained friends makes me think that the technical direction wasn't driven by Foley.
@@GolfCoachDrNoelYep, that's what happens when a coach tries to coach a system instead of the player. Most players have things they do incredibly well and only need tweaking. I remember it took Tiger a year to implement one of Harmon's changes. This from one of the most athletic golfers to every play the game. When egos get in the way, you are no longer an effective coach.....
Always well presented and measured information. Sometimes we have to learn what we don’t need to proceed to what works best- Not exactly a quick fix for all things. I think you explain Foleys concepts better than he did😮
Cowen and Foley coach pros who can already hit the ball .Let's see them teach beginners to scratch golf level.
Indeed. Thats a very different skill set.
@@GolfCoachDrNoel I am 52 and note that there was no youtube for the early part of my life - majority indeed. The ability to watch people like foley and cowan do their stuff is an unbelievable resource and there are videos of them teaching average players ( ok not beginners ) but I feel that if I had these resources when young, i would have benefited hugely regardless of the fact that they train top pros..... they focus mainly on basic movement of the body which applies to all players. The sean foley video with Piers and Andy where he talks about the swing reflecting your walking style..... that is so informative.... there is a clip of how Mcilroy glides when he walks.. effortless.. and his swing reflects that... - basic body movement.
Something tells me you don't like stack and tilt 🤔😏
It's not my model but you're right, I can't imagine that Foley would keen either. Almost the opposite to his core beliefs. Crazy game.
@@GolfCoachDrNoel My current battle. Lots of things seem to be less "timing" dependent for me without all the head movement when I go the S&T route. Not sure I can see why the "excessive spine extension" would be any more unhealthy than all the other crazy moves in the golf swing. 🙂 I've also found the opposite about the path with it. It makes me so much more inclined to come from the inside that I've had to move the ball far forward in my stance to counteract it. Anyway, I'm using a "club data" launch monitor and it's rarely the path that is the defining issue. The face is the challenge. I experimented a *lot* with various patterns of consciously opening and closing it after watching a couple of your videos. Learned a lot, but concluded that a light grip and "slinging" it and "allowing" it to square up works best (for me). And *that* seems dependendent on that left hip getting up and back and *that* seems largely dependent on getting enough side bend coming down. AAMOF, that reminds me that thinking of starting down via side bend is the closest I can come to that pump drill of Rose's, and *that* also seems to match up with that center of mass thing being behind the hands at P6 about which you spoke. Was shocked to finally find myself in such a position on the DTL camera recently. 🙂
Oh, and pause and poise sound very similar. 🙂 Fun to hear about your particular struggles. You sound human. This *is* a crazy game.
Tried stack and tilt for a day or two years back and only remembered it with your mention here.