My husband (who is not super familiar with Tolkien lore) wasn’t bothered by this trailer…until I told him the story of Helm Hammerhand. He immediately got angry and was like, “So the daughter doesn’t even have a name in the original story!? Why is she the main character then???” Exactly, dear husband. Exactly.
It's pretty silly to be annoyed by that in particular. It really doesn't matter if this character had a name in lore or not. We've already known that 'new stories' were going to be told in the margins of the lore for awhile now. The real actual problem here (and in fairness to this upcoming film it may not be true of the film, it's just a fear we have based upon other surrounding LotR projects) is that the lore framing these new projects isn't being handled with care. If they wanna tell a new story about an unnamed character in the lore, that's FINE... it's something that allows for some creative freedom without being saddled to heavily with the shackles of expectation, and a FAIR analysis of what we should expect of future LotR projects that aren't based on NOVELS and long entries from the Silmarillion and such shouldn't be expected to fly solely on adapting long form lore heavy projects about characters who realistically only have a couple paragraphs of real lore to their name... but we should and DO expect that where that lore comes into play, it should be adapted faithfully and the NEW stuff should carefully weave into and out from established lore organically... The issue isn't that stuff like this exists, or how important the character's expressed role is in the legendum... it's that Rings of Power exists, and has us all concerned that when these projects DO approach the established lore, it's going to do so unfaithfully and clumsily. We have to give the film a chance to be good or bad on its own merits though. It may well be that this is a very faithfully adapted Tolkien story whenever and wherever Helm himself is present, and the rest will be a well told original tale... if it isn't, we can give it all the 'Boo'ing it deserves. I worry that to many people are allowing themselves to be caught up into a ragebait fervor to approach anything new on a fair playing field and its own actual merits (or lack thereof).
@@lenajohnson6179 it’s silly to disregard Tolkien’s work and think you can do it better. If you can excuse it, congrats. You’re the exact low IQ person it’s made for. Go waste your money on garbage. I’ll keep my standards and my respect for the author that made the world these clowns wish they could come up with. Next time don’t patronize someone simply because you don’t have any at all. 🙄
The problem is that those who adapt Tolkien often lack his perspective; they don't share his values, dignity, poetic vision, sense of purpose, or understanding of spirituality and concept of good and evil. Instead, we are frequently faced with superficial interpretations of his works. The same situation arises with H.P. Lovecraft. Although Tolkien’s outlook is positive while Lovecraft's is fatalistic, both authors find their profound narratives reduced to mere "geek and generic casual stuff" by those who misunderstand the depth of their storytelling and values.
True, but you would expect them to make a decent attempt to follow or emmulate Tolkien in some way. They don't even try. They watch Jackson's movies for content.
@@CedarloreForge Eowyn was courageous ,yes . But was not massively skilled as they show Hera to be. And Eowyn was not the focal point of the story. Here we have a character that didn't even have a name in the books,becoming a warrior and the protagonist of the story. Why does she have to be a warrior? Can't she be powerful and competent in other ways? This is a troupe that's becoming very annoying. "Girls can do everything men can" it's Galadriel all over again. I don't think she will be as annoying as Galadriel, though. Also ,a very important point,Eowyn's story was written by Tolkien . Hera's story is made up. I really hope I'm wrong and we get a good story with believable characters .
@@CedarloreForge It's obvious, last year they said she wasn't gonns be a warrior now there's a trailer & oh look, she's a warrior. Why are they lying? Why the Bait n Switch? We've also done this dance plenty over the last 5-6 years, all the red flags are there if you pay atrention. They can keep this crap
@@CedarloreForge from the trailer itself it can easily be inferred that the focal of the story will be Hera. There's not even a mention of the two princes who assist Helm Hammerhand in defending Rohan against Dunlendings' onslaught in the trailer. Helm and his two princes in the oncoming movie seemingly will be put as supporting characters even though Helm and his two princes are the main character of the original story. If anything the story SHOULD be about father and sons strive together against all odds to keep the honour of their family and their people. Instead, what we may receive is a story where everyone relying on actions of a girl. That already sounds like a girlboss arc.
Literally the first thing she says in the trailer is... sh_tting on her father and complaining about the patriarchy. While Helm, the one who is the hero of the actual story, is only there to talk her up about how she's so incredible, she could rule the world. A world, where gods, dragons, monsers and the like are a reality. Wanna know what the actual story tells about all-amazing-Hera? "To one of these councils Freca rode with many men, and he asked the hand of Helm’s daughter for his son Wulf. " That's it. That's everything about her. And now you'll get to enjoy her as the one who saved them all. STOLEN VALOR CHAPTER 9994593459394593594934953495943593495439534959345934593495943594359439.
Tolkien had the girl reject the marriage too. But this does not suit your agenda. Also what's wrong with her and her father not wanting to marry her to that dude? So throughout Tolkien's works the message you got is that women should be handed to anyone who asks?
@@universalspaceexpeditioner8259this has to be a troll. That was such a minor detail of the point he made, and the point was very clear; she’s not the main character of the Tolkien story and she certainly wasn’t a warrior. The fact that she rejected the marriage is utterly irrelevant. If you aren’t being a troll then you ARE being disingenuous. Unless you’re actually stupid, in which case I’m sorry. In any case, YOU are clearly the one with the agenda. Just like the people behind these projects that disregard the source material of a beloved and universally respected fantasy author.
@@universalspaceexpeditioner8259 Aside from what Thor-Orion alrady pointed out, Tolkien did not have HER reject anything. She does NOTHING in the story. Also, in the book, it is her father, who rejects the marriage, so the point is... why is she complaining? She did not want to marry him, and her father does not want her to marry him. So what is her problem?
@@universalspaceexpeditioner8259 The people of Rohan are based on a dark age people, the Saxons, somehow woman rights in 900AD are not up for discussion and I'd imagine it's the same in Rohan .
This isn't completely true... For one thing, Helm doesn't have a lot of actual lore to his name. It'd be very hard to faithfully adapt an ENTIRE film super lore heavily about him without taking GREAT liberties about who he is in-between the margins... he's also NOT the hero, he's just a significant figure of note. He dies 'offscreen' most likely frozen to death in the wilderness.
As a woman, I am sick and tired of those 'strong women' who are capable of anything and who need no men to be successful. Women can be strong without wielding a sword or climbing a mountain. I hate those female characters who belittle womanhood; reject love, marriage, childbearing and family, and always act like men. I can never identify myself with such characters. Modern identity and gender politics are dedicated to destroy Tolkien's writings and I hate when they use female characters as a key to this destruction.
Well, this show is being produced by Philippa Boyens, who did her best to destroy The Lord of the Rings, too. Her epic misunderstanding and mishandling of Eowyn was truly repugnant.
@@jachyra9Do you think it was conveyed in the film that Eowyn could never have dealt a death blow to the Witch King, had not the spell woven into Merry's barrow blade, rendered him vulnerable? 🤔
Tell me you haven't seen Princess Mononoke without telling me you haven't seen it or at the very least you missed the point. I'll give you a hint, it had very little to do with her taking on the patriarchy and winning every battle she was apart of. Also, she wasn't the main character either lmao.
Philippa Boyens had no writing experience prior to adapting The Lord of the Rings, which is why its one of the worst literary adaptations ever made. Like mother, like daughter.
@jachyra9 One of the worst is hilarious. In a world rife with corrupt adaptations, the one most holy you decide to denegrate. You are not a serious person, even if we both agree that WoTR is garbage.
@@ClaymoreLinx - Like many before me, I can back up what I'm saying, though I shouldn't have to if you, you know, actually read The Lord of the Rings. You can't say the same. You are a child.
Also, remember how the makers claimed that she "wasn't going to be a warrior princess?" And now you search this movie on youtube, and pretty much 90% of the thumbnails are of her swinging a sword in silly clothes? The worst part is that I just KNOW people are never going to hold these liars accountable for anything. Ever. They literally have the mindset that they work for hollywood and not the other way around.
If you watch the japanese trailer shes way less "girl bossy" i think that was hollywood insisting thats what western fans want just like ROP. But the trailers being so different does give me hope that the "bait and switch" stops with the trailer and the actual movie will be more like what we were promised. Cause i could easily see some studio exec putting his fingers in and insisting on marketting it the way they want.
@@breerex4957 You're naive. Japan does not dictate what this movie is about. They only animated the script they were given. And the writers already told us that this was going to be the typical w0ke revision. And I don't see how editing can make her less girlbossy even, if that was not the case. She does all the things she does and says in this trailer, so it's already beyond repair. Stop having b@ttered wife syndrome. They aren't hitting you because they love you and they won't change. They did the same thing the last 9999999999999999 times and they are going to do the same thing the next 99999999 times.
@@jachyra9 It shouldn't, but if it does, it better be lore accurate at least. Time and time again adaptations decide to go a different route, and time and time again, they flop. With good reason.
@@sleepteam No. The upper management might see it as a money making vessel, but the people actually producing the 'product' see it as a way to defile and to separate people from their heritage, culture, and the art they view as 'problematic' to their adopted worldview. They see it as an opportunity to 'correct' the old and erase it in humanity's collective consciousness with their own preferences. This is a far deeper issue than 'old fart wants more money.' It's "young marxist farts want to transform society."
This is an “Altercation” an altered story around a small Tolkien character, especially female empowerment. What we want is “Expansion” of Tolkien exploring characters built around his world.
Yes, exactly! The story Tolkien actually wrote has been reduced to a backdrop against which Hollywood has written the story that they want to tell. It's so disappointing. But thank you, Michael and Jonathan for speaking in defense of the Professor! ❤
Tolkien's characters' heroic deeds always had a cost, Eowyn suffered from her encounter with evil, Aragon and Arwen had to give up her people for true love, Sam and Frodo paid a price as ring bearers, these new stories, there's no personal cost, it's just one achievement after another
Why must we alway get fanfiction of already existing stories? Why not make something in part of Middle Earth we don't get to see? War in the North was a video game that was just arnor fanfic. And it was cool af. We even get the help of a dragon and it makes sense. Why don't we get more of that?
Honest people fussed so much about The Hobbit movies (I won't defend the Legolas stair scene or the nonsense that was Alfred's death in the extended.) but that was sorta the case of Tolkien fan-fiction that was fun. I mean sure there was no rabbit carriage for Radagast in Tolkien's lore but you know what else there wasn't? Actual full-fledged content with Radagast! While I would had liked to had scene him interact with the Ents it was still really good to see him, as a fully fledged character and even if Tolkien didn't write it. I totally buy him nursing wild animals who are cursed by dark magic and riding a rabbit sled remarking "I'd like to see them try." Its the same with that Dolgerdore battle with Elrond, Galadriel and Sauroman teamed together fighting Nazgul. Sure, its fan-fiction but it still made for an insanely cool scene that could had technically happened under that circumstance of Gandalf needing to be rescued. I'll stand by the inclusion of Bard's children in those movies even with Alfred being in the mix. That gave Bard weight to defend something more than just his honor and his town, and knowing how much Tolkien had loved his own sons, I can't imagine he wouldn't had teared up a little at the sight of Bard shielding/inspiring his son whist facing down Smaug. I never played that game in full, but yeah. It still does feel like Tolkien's world that I'm in, even with the Elf-stone healings (I thought it was a Shannara reference at first.) and the slightly edgy violence. I know its petty on my end. But their being 'no good dragon' in Tolkien's main story's is the same issue he himself was having with the orcs, so I'm kinda glad a dragon did something helpful in a Middle-Earth video game, even if non-cannon. Its like, if they've got great wisdom and sentience, why is it that they're incapable of creation let alone the slightest moral action? It seems silly that they know the value of gold yet refuse to bargain. I know Smaug is the bad-guy and that should stay, but are they all really all like that? I know about the creation of Morgoth thing, but maybe he should had looked at things outside of Beowulf; said dragon he admitted himself 'wasn't Frightfully Good.' (He did know about Mesopotamia myth cause Gilgahllad/Gilgamesh. I'm shocked he never talked about the Tiamat story.)
It's very telling that even in the original Jackson trilogy, almost all the changes were for the worse. I understand most of them, and totally get you have to make changes for the big screen adaptation. But the confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch King is much better in the books. I agree about the Faramir change being really frustrating. I also did not like Aragorn beheading the Mouth of Sauron or the entire dynamic at final council before marching on Mordor. These were mostly minor changes where they could've just gone right instead of left, but for some odd reason didn't stick to the books.
There are two massive issues when attempting to adapt Tolkien. #1. The Tolkien Estate hated Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy so they have refused to release the rights to anything else Tolkien wrote. The studio had an opportunity to "get it right" with "The Hobbit" but Im sure we can all agree that they missed the mark by a country mile. So, any projects since the Hobbit have been prohibited from using material from any other Tolkien works by the estate. That is why it all seems like fan fiction! They have to make it up from scratch or just not make anything. #2. You have so many politically or socially motivated people who insist on injecting their 21st century psuedo morality into absolutely everything and that perspective is so jarringly different from that of Tolkien that they are simply incapable of crafting a story that remotely resembles anything he wrote (other than the "member berries."
Actually, I would in no way categorize oliphaunts as "reasonable", but "extremely unlikely": Rohan was invaded by Easterlings, Oliphaunts are from (Far) Harad. Any oliphaunt attacking Rohan would have had to go through Gondor first. I don't see that happening.
*Yeah, great point ~ The only reference we know of them - prior to the Third Age of Endor, to be exact - was when Sam makes mentions of Haradwaith and Oliphaunts in the tales of the past (which could suggest Hobbits had ventured to Harad during the First Age, though we know Hobbits migrated from Rhun during the Eldar Days to the West ~ The former point would also be a reference to when Earendil ventures to Haradwaith and encounters the pygmies ~*
I forget which lore channel it was, but they pointed out that they could've been shipped up the coast to Dunland that way, but yea still kind of unlikely
Gurls get it done! Whoohoo! You know, it’s sad, I can almost hear the conversation with the writers justifying why they’re changing Tolkien. It goes back to, they saw the Peter Jackson films & they associate Rohan with Éowyn, so of course in THEIR show, set in Rohan, Éowyn has to be the narrator and they have to have their own ORIGINALish pre-Éowyn Girl Boss. They of course don’t understand how this cheapens Éowyn, ie. If everyone is special, than no one is special. It’s not easy to write a character like Éowyn and make it logically work in the story, that’s why the character is so beloved. We all know with their “girl boss” they’re going to take every shortcut which will make her a Caricature of Éowyn, their girl boss will be just innately good at everything & her only “growth or arc” is for the Men around her to accept her greatness. 🤦♂️ These things almost write themselves! Why the way they write their girl boss Mary Sues is so damaging to stories is, people like courage & they don’t actually understand what being courageous is. Courage is inextricably linked to duty & sacrifice, which modern writers HATE. Courage is overcoming the fear you have & to not know if you will survive, but being willing to SACRIFICE yourself because you have a DUTY to try to protect others. This is what makes Éowyn a great character, she demonstrates actual courage, she’s not fighting because she’s “better” than the Men, she probably knows she’s weaker than most, but is willing to sacrifice herself to protect others. The best scene in Kill Bill to demonstrate this, that so many people overlook is, when the Bride goes to face off will Bill for the last time, when she leaves her sleeping daughter, she hangs her necklace on her daughter’s photo of her, because she doesn’t know if she is going to survive, but wanted to make sure she left her daughter something, in case she doesn’t. It’s incredibly subtle, but a very powerful “show don’t tell” moment.
Nope, she's going to be the tragic heroine who gets written out of Rohirric history along with the tribe of Shieldmaidens she draws inspiration from. The makers already basically said that when describing their view of her character. It's a tragic story where the real villain was The Patriarchy all along and The Patriarchy ultimately won. 🙄
I've loved Tolkien's works ever since I first discovered it at a very young age (I'm 42 now). I'm also one of a relatively small group of people who loved all six of PJ's Middle-earth movies to the point that I would call the series as a whole my favourite films of all time. But after The Battle of the Five Armies, I felt like Middle-earth adaptations were over and done. Everything that Tolkien actually wrote in sufficient detail to adapt, had been adapted. Any other adaptation would have to imagine so much that it couldn't possibly feel right. And I know, The Hobbit already added a lot, and I was okay with that. But one of the reasons why I didn't complain about it is that I thought that would be the end of cinematic Middle-earth and I was happy to see as much of it as possible. Now, however, with Rings of Power, and this, and the upcoming Gollum movie... I just can't be bothered to care about any of it in the slightest, which is an entirely new feeling for me when it comes to Tolkien adaptations. It just makes me sad. You had a bunch of fantastic movies, now it's over. Please leave well enough alone. That's how I feel about all this.
One of the writers was the daughter of Philippa boyans no doubt raised as a radical feminist. Women can’t write male dominate characters it goes against everything they believe in. Tolkien didn’t even give her a name. Hera sounds Greek not Anglo Saxon.
Hold your Mumakil. The other army was landed by sea, at the Isen, so Oilphaunts is a very far stretch. There are very few occurrences historically of elephants carried by ship before modern times, and Mumakil are many times bigger. And if you refer to the army from the East, it is even more far-fetched that Easterlings would have access to these beasts. The Rohirrim did help Gondor fight of a Corsair/Haradrim attack arriving by land roughly 100 years later, so they may have met them before WoR, but they were hardly present at this time. Rumors of this occasion, or any earlier confrontation with Gondor alone, may have spread the rumor that came up as a nursery rhyme in Samwise Gamgee's family.
I had high hopes for a while. And obviously they have make up there own stories, but they should remain true to published canon and make the story ‘feel’ like Tolkien
Animated has so much more potential than live action in my opinion. Imagine a first age series written by the guy that done "blood of zeus". Would be perfect to me.
One thing to keep in miind. If they follow the story, Hera should die. Fréaláf Hildeson led an attack from Dunharrow against Edoras and, eventually becomes King because all of Helm's progeny were dead.
@@Bayard1503 Two reasons. First, there is literally no mention of her after the initial meeting. Second, if she had a child, it could challenge the throne. And no one challenged the succession of Fréaláf. Fréaláf is the real hero of the War of the Rohirrim. He takes back Edoras, kills Wulf and drives the Dunlendings from Rohan.
The entirety of Helms story as writ in the lore is perfectly adaptable in this story. It's not like there's a massive trilogy tome of Helm Hammerhand lore. That's not really the problem here. The major problem is that Rings of Power exists and has us all concerned that all of the lore the 'new stuff' is taking place between is going to be poorly adapted lore.
Beautiful trailer I must say. Maybe you’re just trying to be the Gandalf of UA-cam, wielding your staff of opinion like it’s the One Opinion to Rule Them All. Sure, the animation might not be everyone’s cup of tea, but remember the 1978 animated "Lord of the Rings"? It was a medieval fever dream we still love! And if the narrative direction is a concern, let’s acknowledge that stories evolve sometimes the cheerleader saves the world, and that’s just fucking badass. At the end of the day, it's all about the love for Middle-earth, even if we occasionally disagree on the journey. After all, it's these different opinions that keep the fandom alive.
Didn't like the 1978 version either. Tolkien's stories don't evolve. It's the people who take his work and manipulate into their own image of what they want it to be... thus, it's no longer Tolkien's story.
@@TheOneRingcom I really believe that Tolkien's works are like the Mona Lisa of fantasy literature, truly special. When I hear about adaptations like "The War of the Rohirrim," I get excited to see how they bring the stories from the appendices to life. Even if they add new characters, like Héra, Helm Hammerhand's daughter, I see it as a chance to explore more of Tolkien's world. Adaptations can help introduce his universe to new fans and keep the magic alive. I’m all for embracing these adaptations, whether they stick closely to the original texts or take some creative liberties. In the end, it’s about what resonates with all of us as fans. Each of us has our own connection to Tolkien's work, and that diversity of opinions only enriches our love for his stories. Whether we prefer the original texts or the adaptations, it’s our shared passion that keeps Tolkien’s spirit alive in our community!😊
It really angers me that they would use a name derived from Greece based on a group of people inspired by historical groups quite disconnected. It's like they used a baby name generator "Our girl boss is a hero. Let's make it a girl version of that" with no regard for the actual origin. Details matter.
This suffers from the same problem that plague the Netflix's Witcher tv show. The writers unfortunately trying to write a dtory that the author Andrej Sapkowski never wrote. 🤦♂️
You could have had her be a shield-maiden type who gets thrust into a exceptional circumstances and needs to fight, sure. But the story shouldn't be ABOUT her. It should be about the fall of the house of Helm Hammerhand, the deaths of his two sons, himself and his nephew coming up to continue the line of Eorl
It becomes more and more obvious to me that if you read Lord of the rings and you think you know something about Tolken that you actually know maybe 5% of what he was thinking and what he wrote, and the backstory.
I hadn't picked up the "you could rule the world" bit. 🤭🙄 I'll watch it in theaters because my heart belongs to Rohan but I'm sure I will need to suppress some groans.
They know that most people that watched the movies did not read the books. This is just a another money grab by continuing the popular she-warrior theme that began in my mind with Disney's Little Mermaid.
"There's no source material. We don't have comic books. We don't have 800-page novels. We don't have anything other than passionate storytellers who get together and talk about what the next iteration might be." - Kathleen Kennedy on Star Wars. There is so little Tolkien literature that they had to make up a feminist story based on an unnamed character in an appendix of Lord of the Rings.
I also think it looks like an old cartoon. For the life of me, I can't understand why they think this could draw an audience to a movie theatre. If it were a Netflix Original, okay, but a theatrical release?
I confess I had a few expectations about this, after that nightmare that is ROP. My gosh what a mess. It doesn’t even seem Middle-Earth. I am struggling to understand the logic behind this project, really. Oh, and by the way, enough with the nostalgia.
The focus on the girl: Disappointing. The look of the characters: Disappointing - too much like Manga. It´s a northern european, not a japanese tale. The focus on modern themes: Disappointing. This story takes place in a kind of old, anglo-saxon world. I, as a reader and fan of Tolkien, want to dive in that world, I don´t want a new chapter of modern ideas. Another wasted chance.
When it comes to films. Animation for the most part does not have a jerky look like that unless it's a low budget TV show, whenever they use CGI in anime, it's because they're cutting corners, since the models rendered at a lower framerate than the ones that are hand drawn, this means this project is not only rushed and has a small budget, but likely doing the same thing as ROP story wise as you guys siad. That's probably why it looks so bad in between some shots. Animation can seriously have good and appeasing art even if you don't really have a thing for it. This film is gonna leave a bad impression on people who already don't like the animation medium. But yea the set pieces look really good though, when the CGI is not interfering with it
And by the way, the movie is not even “anime” as in animated in Japan… it’s just another “anime is soooo popular with the kids, let’s copy the style and call it a day!!”
@@jachyra9I don’t think it’s cynicism, he’s actually not wrong, either. Western animation has self immolated and people don’t trust things coming out of western animation studios anymore, while Japanese produced anime is very popular. It’s a conscious decision to bait and switch.
Make it make sense. I agree, Jonathan: From what I've seen of it, I'm not much of a fan of Anime. To me, it takes me out of the reality of the action, even if the action is meant to be in Animated form. I'm disappointed, because I saw the concept art for TWOTR, about 4 years ago, and I was rather piqued. It looked very much like a video game cinematic, which always works for me, and many other general viewers, as well. Since hearing about this project, I'm surprised that Peter Jackson and others didn't go the Animated route of his and Spielberg's excellent, The Adventures Of Tin Tin. That would've been very evocative and further groundbreaking, for this kind of fare. That, right there, is cause for worry. Now, finding out that the story is following the trend of TROP, and seems to be giving the main stage to a female character who isn't even given a name by Tolkien, makes me feel even more alienated from this new story...one I'm not even familiar with, to be honest, but, know of. For the last 4 years, I've been hoping this film would be the antithesis of, TROP...instead, it seems like it could be a companion piece. The change in the Animation style, and the alteration to the source material, incline me to avoid seeing this; at least, until I've heard diehard Tolkien Fans (like you, Mike and Jonathan) evaluate it. What's the point, really, if this is just some brand new, original tale that is set in TLOTR Universe; if it's not staying true to the actual appendices that inspired it. They might as well have just created an entirely new story, just setting it in Tolkien's world, during a time he never clearly depicted. Thanks for the analysis, Gentlemen. Keep the fellowship strong...
So, they're re-writing Middle-Earth history with this production, as they've done with every production that was associated with Tolkien's works, since after the Peter Jackson films. Essentially saying that "Tolkien did it wrong, we can do it better". I'm turned off, and tuned out, to this. Its best to not touch Tolkien's works ever again, and let the fans picture his world in our minds as intended while reading the books.
Instead of the epic story of the epic character the author wrote of, we are once again getting the story of someone unnamed and unimportant. Because the producers of these undesired products want to insert their own vision. And they use Tolkiens work as a vehicle to achieve this. The big name dropping and a plethora of of memberberries are used to sell us these ideas. There is no chance I would watch this. I have better things to do!
Why does hollywood feel the need to make up these "girlboss" characters for Middle-Earth when Tolkien actually wrote so many powerful female characters in his stories?... Do they not actually read Tolkien?... I would literally watch a whole movie on the wife of Hurin, Turin's mother, and the struggles she went through and the strength she showed, even helping to unite her people against the forces of Morgoth... Why can't we get that movie?...
Sorry, but I have to correct you again. There was some "Mordor" at the time. The Witch-King and other Nazgul overwhelmed Minas Ithil in TA2002, after abandoning Angmar. It was renamed Minas Morgul. Sure, Sauron wasn't yet there and Barad-Dur wasn't rebuilt, but it wasn't an empty wasteland.
Thanks for that. I am rapidly becoming a Japanese Trailer bore, for which I am qualified by complete ignorance of anime. Anyway there is one and it answers various of your points. We do see Helm in the snow, we see more of his sons, we see Saruman. It's also much more exciting, fast paced and action-led, and the animation style looks better in it. Hera comes across as less of a girl-boss, with a genuine love for her father. There are different legacy scenes in the opening, so with luck there are none in the film. Yeah "rule this world" is worrying. However barbarian "foederati" weren't always the most reliable of allies. Maybe Helm has in mind Vidugavia, king of Rhovanion, who did marry his daughter to the heir of Gondor's throne, thus setting off the Kin-strife. I realise none of this will convince you. For now I hope to enjoy it for what it is, a fan-fiction in a style with its own conventions, acceptable as long as it (in some indefinable way) feels at home in Tolkien's world.
Devil's advocate on Helm's daughter's name. Héra seems to be a Saxon word meaning "follower" and other similar stuff, so at least that's consistent with Rohirric names. Everything else in the trailer, minus the punch, has nothing to do with Tolkien.
I heard this movie is mainly just a rights retainer, that's only reason it's been made. It's Peter Jackson trying to show he can still do lotr way better than Amazon ROP.
June 2021 was the original announcement of the project, which was still prime girl-boss era I guess. Production timeline made it 3 years too late to the girl-boss party.
I think it's the most likely explanation for this. In that time, it was still the height wokesim and I wouldn't be surprised if the investors and studio heads made it a condition for the writers to insert "Girlboss/Strong Female Character" as the main lead or else the movie wouldn't be made.
@@jachyra9 Oy! I stan PJ's LOTR films. Sure, it was disappointing not to see Glorfindel, but I understand why they switched him out for Arwen from an adaptation perspective. And I eventually forgave them for what they did to Faramir. It took a few years. He's my favorite character from the books. But I forgave them. Even if I'm still wistful for what could have been, with David Wenham as one of those unicorn castings who looked and sounded exactly how I always imagined the character he played. But having an ancient Elf lady be a better rider than her mortal lover who was nicknamed for his *walking* skills is fundamentally different from just arbitrarily naming the only girl in a family of Horse Lords to be the bestest.
@@sarahgould5435 - Jackson's films are a horrible adaptation. I love watching them and own them in every iteration available. But they're still a profusion of arrogance, bad choices and a fundamental misunderstanding of what Tolkien wrote.
@@jachyra9 I can go along with that. At least in some respects. Certainly Jackson and Wenham both admitted they couldn't understand Faramir, which is why I forgave them. If you can't understand it, you can't portray it. At least it wasn't a deliberate corruption of his character for the sake of drama. Or for the sake of proving a point or sending a message that only exists beyond the fourth wall.
If Payne and McKay and these anime makers wanted to tell the story Tolkien never wrote, why didn't they do that sequel 200 years after Aragorn took the throne, that Fourth Age sequel Tolkien managed one chapter of before deciding it wasn't what he wanted? Why always a prequel? Why not some time when it would be perfectly legitimate to create new characters and small changes in the societies Tolkien created would be understandable? And licensing those parts would cost less, right?
Y'know, after replying to other people's comments below, I just realised here I've broken my own rule about "fgodsake don't give them ideas". I'm sorry.
Freca is not a Dunlending, he's a noble of Rohan, albeit with some Dunlending blood, to the point of having dark hair. And no, oliphants aren't reasonable, either, because the while there was an invasion force involved from the east, the actual conquering of Rohan was done by Wulf from the west, with the Dunlending strengthened by forces that landed in the mouths of Isen and Lefnui, and those definitely didn't bring any oliphants along (and BTW, that eastern invasion force wouldn't have a way to get them through Gondor territories, either). Also, Michael: Faramir doesn't face nazgul many times, all we know about is that one time when he was pursued by them on his return to Minas Tirith, and he takes so long to succumb to the black breath because, unlike Éowyn, he didn't engage with them in a hand-to-hand combat.
When this project was announced, I was looking forward to it. Specially after Amazon's Rings Of Crap. But couple months ago, after that interview with Boyens about Hera and "exploring" her character, my hopes were dashed. And now we have this trailer. Some streams That Iv'e watched say that the Japanese version of it is more balanced and focuses more on the story of the war of Rohirrim than on the Girl boss. But Trailers are deceptive and the English trailer raised so many red flags for me (Hera's lines and one line "you could rule the world". ugh.) that I lost all hope for this. 😞
I'd love to see her try to rule the world. Can you imagine? Of all the peoples of Middle Earth, the Rohirrim were the least likely to be able to conquer the world. 😃😃🙃The Elves would have laughed at a human woman trying to tell them what to do. Elves bow to any human naive lordling, male or female ? Seriously? Galadriel is already in her forest bearing one of the three rings, Elrond, controls Rivendell, and also, bears one of the rings of power. Dwarfs, were in their caves. They would have ignored her, more than likely, until her armies marched on their kingdoms and then they would have come out of their caves, axes swinging. the Easterlings would have armies of thousands to oppose her... I suspect the Dunadain would have defending the north until the last of them drew their last breath. Maybe she could have conquered and ruled the Shire? Oh, and the Wizards? The bad guys... the trolls, the witch king of Angmar? the hordes of goblins and orcs in the dark places of the earth? (what if conversations are always so fascinating!) Instead, just encourage her to rule their own kingdom with justice and fairness, mercy and strength. I've always hated that parents' tendency to say stupid unrealistic things to their kids. Tell kids what they can actually hope to do... so the child can see what they can honestly aim towards to succeed. That is my main complaint about Mary Sue's in entertainment is, It, as a trope, builds up unrealistic expectations.
Thr only shred of joy I can get from a premise like that - like in every damned prequel from Star Wars, Star Trek and every other poisoned universe - is knowing that the plan FAILS.
13:50 also, which rings would they be collecting at this point? The Nine were already in the hands of the Nazgul, while the Seven and the Three have nothing to do with men or Rohan.
Some of the footage you were looking for is actually on the Japanese trailer. For example: Saruman, apparently at the coronation of Frealaf. I'm guessing that this is only a cameo. The Japanese trailer is worth a look for more new footage and a somewhat different tone. I would also suggest that some of the lines we hear on the English-language trailer might be out-of-context and might not even be addressed to the characters that it seems are being spoken to. That said, "You could rule the world" still seems out of place. Btw, if this movie is set within the continuity of the Peter Jackson films, the mention of Mordor might not be a problem. Sauron probably was not yet in Dol Guldur in the films where Mirkwood was still the Greenwood at this time.
I’m so disappointed. I have wanted an animated adaptation of Tolkien’s world for so freaking long. They finally announced they would be doing it, and now we see it’s another generic ass girl boss story that Tolkien didn’t write. Warner Bros is extremely stupid. This could have been a smash hit had they decided to just have decided to stay true to the lore.
Eh? Why else? Hera's the qween of da gods or something. At least she ain't Artemis or Athena. Though Nemesis might suit her better though we'll have to wait and see
This trailer is every bit the rubbish I was expecting and then some... 😞 If someone told me, more than 20 years ago, when I would spend long hours on TORC's forums 😉 discussing the changes made in PJ's trilogy, almost screaming murder at the idea of Arwen at the Ford, Elves at Helm's Deep, etc... that EVERY single adaptation of Tolkien''s works done after Peter Jackson's would be worse, more disrespectful, and more arrogant and ill-conceived than the previous one, I wouldnt't have believed it 😩It would be ironic if it wansn't so heartbreaking. Nowadays, I just dread the news of more Tolkien's "adaptations" 😢 (thank Eru we still have "new" books and The One Ring channel)
@@FinrodFelagund5 Well, we've seen the alternative. ... I've already had the same reaction to everything I loved growing up: Doctor Who, Star Trek, Star Wars, Isaac Asimov's Foundation, TRON...
As someone who despises the Rings of Power and hates anime; I still am looking forward to this. I guess the fact that this is a niche story and not something far more important like Fingolfin fighting Morgoth. There will be mistakes for sure, but "what does Mordor want with rings" is far less egregious to me then making Galadriel single, daughterless, and thirsty with the temperament of a human tween.
My husband (who is not super familiar with Tolkien lore) wasn’t bothered by this trailer…until I told him the story of Helm Hammerhand.
He immediately got angry and was like, “So the daughter doesn’t even have a name in the original story!? Why is she the main character then???”
Exactly, dear husband. Exactly.
It's pretty silly to be annoyed by that in particular. It really doesn't matter if this character had a name in lore or not. We've already known that 'new stories' were going to be told in the margins of the lore for awhile now. The real actual problem here (and in fairness to this upcoming film it may not be true of the film, it's just a fear we have based upon other surrounding LotR projects) is that the lore framing these new projects isn't being handled with care.
If they wanna tell a new story about an unnamed character in the lore, that's FINE... it's something that allows for some creative freedom without being saddled to heavily with the shackles of expectation, and a FAIR analysis of what we should expect of future LotR projects that aren't based on NOVELS and long entries from the Silmarillion and such shouldn't be expected to fly solely on adapting long form lore heavy projects about characters who realistically only have a couple paragraphs of real lore to their name... but we should and DO expect that where that lore comes into play, it should be adapted faithfully and the NEW stuff should carefully weave into and out from established lore organically...
The issue isn't that stuff like this exists, or how important the character's expressed role is in the legendum... it's that Rings of Power exists, and has us all concerned that when these projects DO approach the established lore, it's going to do so unfaithfully and clumsily. We have to give the film a chance to be good or bad on its own merits though. It may well be that this is a very faithfully adapted Tolkien story whenever and wherever Helm himself is present, and the rest will be a well told original tale... if it isn't, we can give it all the 'Boo'ing it deserves. I worry that to many people are allowing themselves to be caught up into a ragebait fervor to approach anything new on a fair playing field and its own actual merits (or lack thereof).
@@lenajohnson6179 it’s silly to disregard Tolkien’s work and think you can do it better.
If you can excuse it, congrats. You’re the exact low IQ person it’s made for.
Go waste your money on garbage. I’ll keep my standards and my respect for the author that made the world these clowns wish they could come up with.
Next time don’t patronize someone simply because you don’t have any at all.
🙄
The problem is that those who adapt Tolkien often lack his perspective; they don't share his values, dignity, poetic vision, sense of purpose, or understanding of spirituality and concept of good and evil. Instead, we are frequently faced with superficial interpretations of his works. The same situation arises with H.P. Lovecraft. Although Tolkien’s outlook is positive while Lovecraft's is fatalistic, both authors find their profound narratives reduced to mere "geek and generic casual stuff" by those who misunderstand the depth of their storytelling and values.
True, but you would expect them to make a decent attempt to follow or emmulate Tolkien in some way. They don't even try. They watch Jackson's movies for content.
War of the Ro-HER-im
Starring HER-a
Girl boss and slaying Queen of the Realm.
So sick of this nonsense.
YOU ARE FORGETTING LOTR IS BASED ON NORSE MYTHOLOGY NOT CATHOLIC BU#&S&@%. LET THAT SINK IN
Was 95% sure id be skipping this after the synopsis was released, im now 100% sure after that trailer. Tolkien turns in his grave yet again
I had high hopes for this considering Jackson was involved and WB but that was a year ago. Seeing the trailer now I consider it trailer trash.
What made them think paying homage to ROP with that climbing scene would be a good idea 😅 More inspiration drawn from that show than Tolkien
Didn't we get enough of this girlboss crap with Guy-ladrial in Rings of Prime? Smh
Now we have Heradriel
Have you seen this movie yet? How do you know it’s a “girlboss” was Eowyn a girl boss when she slayed the Witch King?
@@CedarloreForge Eowyn was courageous ,yes . But was not massively skilled as they show Hera to be. And Eowyn was not the focal point of the story. Here we have a character that didn't even have a name in the books,becoming a warrior and the protagonist of the story. Why does she have to be a warrior? Can't she be powerful and competent in other ways? This is a troupe that's becoming very annoying. "Girls can do everything men can" it's Galadriel all over again. I don't think she will be as annoying as Galadriel, though.
Also ,a very important point,Eowyn's story was written by Tolkien . Hera's story is made up.
I really hope I'm wrong and we get a good story with believable characters .
@@CedarloreForge It's obvious, last year they said she wasn't gonns be a warrior now there's a trailer & oh look, she's a warrior. Why are they lying? Why the Bait n Switch? We've also done this dance plenty over the last 5-6 years, all the red flags are there if you pay atrention. They can keep this crap
@@CedarloreForge from the trailer itself it can easily be inferred that the focal of the story will be Hera. There's not even a mention of the two princes who assist Helm Hammerhand in defending Rohan against Dunlendings' onslaught in the trailer. Helm and his two princes in the oncoming movie seemingly will be put as supporting characters even though Helm and his two princes are the main character of the original story.
If anything the story SHOULD be about father and sons strive together against all odds to keep the honour of their family and their people. Instead, what we may receive is a story where everyone relying on actions of a girl. That already sounds like a girlboss arc.
we're living through the dark ages of entertainment
It's just a symptom of a deeper Marxist cancer...
Literally the first thing she says in the trailer is... sh_tting on her father and complaining about the patriarchy.
While Helm, the one who is the hero of the actual story, is only there to talk her up about how she's so incredible, she could rule the world. A world, where gods, dragons, monsers and the like are a reality.
Wanna know what the actual story tells about all-amazing-Hera?
"To one of these councils Freca rode with many men, and he asked the hand of Helm’s daughter for his son Wulf. "
That's it. That's everything about her. And now you'll get to enjoy her as the one who saved them all.
STOLEN VALOR CHAPTER 9994593459394593594934953495943593495439534959345934593495943594359439.
Tolkien had the girl reject the marriage too. But this does not suit your agenda. Also what's wrong with her and her father not wanting to marry her to that dude? So throughout Tolkien's works the message you got is that women should be handed to anyone who asks?
@@universalspaceexpeditioner8259this has to be a troll.
That was such a minor detail of the point he made, and the point was very clear; she’s not the main character of the Tolkien story and she certainly wasn’t a warrior.
The fact that she rejected the marriage is utterly irrelevant.
If you aren’t being a troll then you ARE being disingenuous.
Unless you’re actually stupid, in which case I’m sorry.
In any case, YOU are clearly the one with the agenda. Just like the people behind these projects that disregard the source material of a beloved and universally respected fantasy author.
@@universalspaceexpeditioner8259 Aside from what Thor-Orion alrady pointed out, Tolkien did not have HER reject anything. She does NOTHING in the story.
Also, in the book, it is her father, who rejects the marriage, so the point is... why is she complaining? She did not want to marry him, and her father does not want her to marry him. So what is her problem?
@@universalspaceexpeditioner8259
The people of Rohan are based on a dark age people, the Saxons, somehow woman rights in 900AD are not up for discussion and I'd imagine it's the same in Rohan .
This isn't completely true... For one thing, Helm doesn't have a lot of actual lore to his name. It'd be very hard to faithfully adapt an ENTIRE film super lore heavily about him without taking GREAT liberties about who he is in-between the margins... he's also NOT the hero, he's just a significant figure of note. He dies 'offscreen' most likely frozen to death in the wilderness.
As a woman, I am sick and tired of those 'strong women' who are capable of anything and who need no men to be successful. Women can be strong without wielding a sword or climbing a mountain. I hate those female characters who belittle womanhood; reject love, marriage, childbearing and family, and always act like men. I can never identify myself with such characters.
Modern identity and gender politics are dedicated to destroy Tolkien's writings and I hate when they use female characters as a key to this destruction.
Well, this show is being produced by Philippa Boyens, who did her best to destroy The Lord of the Rings, too. Her epic misunderstanding and mishandling of Eowyn was truly repugnant.
i appreciate your perspective, and mostly agree.
but this is a symptom of a deeper issue.
Masculinity is toxic; unless a woman exhibits those traits 😆
@@jachyra9Do you think it was conveyed in the film that Eowyn could never have dealt a death blow to the Witch King, had not the spell woven into Merry's barrow blade, rendered him vulnerable? 🤔
I know the story of Merry's sword was tweaked for the film tho
As European Lore said, this is Princess Mononoke in Middle Earth.
Only sucky and unoriginal.
Princess Mononoke already exists and was so well received because of its originality. We do not need a copycat Princess Mononoke, we need Tolkien.
@@Cappellano This also looks like tones of Mulan in it too
Tell me you haven't seen Princess Mononoke without telling me you haven't seen it or at the very least you missed the point. I'll give you a hint, it had very little to do with her taking on the patriarchy and winning every battle she was apart of. Also, she wasn't the main character either lmao.
Princess Mononoke has a lot of themes in common with Tolkien. This looks like neither 😢
I guess I'll just skip it and watch Bakshi or Jackson again.
Or Rankin/Bass.
Nah, just go watch some of the playlists on the lore channels.
Or the most faithful adaptation of LOTR: BBC's 1981 Dramatized Audiobook of Lord of the Rings. It's amazing... ❤❤😊😊
@@vincestapels2022 It really is. That production is absolutely masterful and should receive much more attention.
The representation is another girl boss😂
PJ didn't write this. The credited screenwriter is Phoebe Gittins.....Philippa Boyens' daughter. Her only other writing credit is from 2013
Major nepotistic red flag
@@Luke-kj1rj I think so. It's not a merit-based hire, with the obvious caveat that anything is possible
Philippa Boyens had no writing experience prior to adapting The Lord of the Rings, which is why its one of the worst literary adaptations ever made. Like mother, like daughter.
@jachyra9 One of the worst is hilarious. In a world rife with corrupt adaptations, the one most holy you decide to denegrate. You are not a serious person, even if we both agree that WoTR is garbage.
@@ClaymoreLinx - Like many before me, I can back up what I'm saying, though I shouldn't have to if you, you know, actually read The Lord of the Rings. You can't say the same. You are a child.
They're updating it for the "modern audience"
Who don’t actually exist 😢
Also, remember how the makers claimed that she "wasn't going to be a warrior princess?"
And now you search this movie on youtube, and pretty much 90% of the thumbnails are of her swinging a sword in silly clothes?
The worst part is that I just KNOW people are never going to hold these liars accountable for anything. Ever. They literally have the mindset that they work for hollywood and not the other way around.
If you watch the japanese trailer shes way less "girl bossy" i think that was hollywood insisting thats what western fans want just like ROP. But the trailers being so different does give me hope that the "bait and switch" stops with the trailer and the actual movie will be more like what we were promised. Cause i could easily see some studio exec putting his fingers in and insisting on marketting it the way they want.
@@breerex4957 You're naive.
Japan does not dictate what this movie is about. They only animated the script they were given.
And the writers already told us that this was going to be the typical w0ke revision.
And I don't see how editing can make her less girlbossy even, if that was not the case. She does all the things she does and says in this trailer, so it's already beyond repair.
Stop having b@ttered wife syndrome. They aren't hitting you because they love you and they won't change.
They did the same thing the last 9999999999999999 times and they are going to do the same thing the next 99999999 times.
You worded it perfectly at the start there, I also just want to see what he wrote come to life. And for some strange reason, IT NEVER HAPPENS.
That’s because it’s seen as a money making vessel. They don’t care about Tolkien.
@@sleepteam But its not though is it? If anything it makes less money.
Why should it happen?
@@jachyra9 It shouldn't, but if it does, it better be lore accurate at least. Time and time again adaptations decide to go a different route, and time and time again, they flop. With good reason.
@@sleepteam No. The upper management might see it as a money making vessel, but the people actually producing the 'product' see it as a way to defile and to separate people from their heritage, culture, and the art they view as 'problematic' to their adopted worldview. They see it as an opportunity to 'correct' the old and erase it in humanity's collective consciousness with their own preferences.
This is a far deeper issue than 'old fart wants more money.' It's "young marxist farts want to transform society."
This is an “Altercation” an altered story around a small Tolkien character, especially female empowerment.
What we want is “Expansion” of Tolkien exploring characters built around his world.
Yes, exactly! The story Tolkien actually wrote has been reduced to a backdrop against which Hollywood has written the story that they want to tell. It's so disappointing. But thank you, Michael and Jonathan for speaking in defense of the Professor! ❤
Tolkien's characters' heroic deeds always had a cost, Eowyn suffered from her encounter with evil, Aragon and Arwen had to give up her people for true love, Sam and Frodo paid a price as ring bearers, these new stories, there's no personal cost, it's just one achievement after another
Why must we alway get fanfiction of already existing stories? Why not make something in part of Middle Earth we don't get to see? War in the North was a video game that was just arnor fanfic. And it was cool af. We even get the help of a dragon and it makes sense.
Why don't we get more of that?
99% of today's writers are fan fiction caliber. The good writers don't get jobs since they don't check the DEI boxes.
Honest people fussed so much about The Hobbit
movies (I won't defend the Legolas stair scene or
the nonsense that was Alfred's death in the extended.)
but that was sorta the case of Tolkien fan-fiction that
was fun. I mean sure there was no rabbit carriage
for Radagast in Tolkien's lore but you know what else
there wasn't? Actual full-fledged content with
Radagast! While I would had liked to had scene him
interact with the Ents it was still really good to see
him, as a fully fledged character and even if Tolkien
didn't write it. I totally buy him nursing wild animals
who are cursed by dark magic and riding a rabbit
sled remarking "I'd like to see them try." Its the same
with that Dolgerdore battle with Elrond, Galadriel
and Sauroman teamed together fighting Nazgul. Sure,
its fan-fiction but it still made for an insanely cool
scene that could had technically happened under
that circumstance of Gandalf needing to be rescued.
I'll stand by the inclusion of Bard's children in those
movies even with Alfred being in the mix. That gave
Bard weight to defend something more than just
his honor and his town, and knowing how much Tolkien
had loved his own sons, I can't imagine he wouldn't had
teared up a little at the sight of Bard shielding/inspiring
his son whist facing down Smaug. I never played that
game in full, but yeah. It still does feel like Tolkien's
world that I'm in, even with the Elf-stone healings (I
thought it was a Shannara reference at first.) and the
slightly edgy violence. I know its petty on my end. But
their being 'no good dragon' in Tolkien's main story's
is the same issue he himself was having with the orcs,
so I'm kinda glad a dragon did something helpful in
a Middle-Earth video game, even if non-cannon. Its
like, if they've got great wisdom and sentience, why is
it that they're incapable of creation let alone the slightest moral action? It seems silly that they know
the value of gold yet refuse to bargain. I know Smaug
is the bad-guy and that should stay, but are they all
really all like that? I know about the creation of
Morgoth thing, but maybe he should had looked at
things outside of Beowulf; said dragon he admitted
himself 'wasn't Frightfully Good.' (He did know about
Mesopotamia myth cause Gilgahllad/Gilgamesh. I'm
shocked he never talked about the Tiamat story.)
Saruman is in the Japanese dub trailer, with some other new scenes.
lmao... even MORGOTH couldn't rule the world.
It's very telling that even in the original Jackson trilogy, almost all the changes were for the worse. I understand most of them, and totally get you have to make changes for the big screen adaptation. But the confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch King is much better in the books. I agree about the Faramir change being really frustrating. I also did not like Aragorn beheading the Mouth of Sauron or the entire dynamic at final council before marching on Mordor. These were mostly minor changes where they could've just gone right instead of left, but for some odd reason didn't stick to the books.
I think omitting Tom Bombadil was a good choice though.
There are two massive issues when attempting to adapt Tolkien. #1. The Tolkien Estate hated Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy so they have refused to release the rights to anything else Tolkien wrote. The studio had an opportunity to "get it right" with "The Hobbit" but Im sure we can all agree that they missed the mark by a country mile. So, any projects since the Hobbit have been prohibited from using material from any other Tolkien works by the estate. That is why it all seems like fan fiction! They have to make it up from scratch or just not make anything. #2. You have so many politically or socially motivated people who insist on injecting their 21st century psuedo morality into absolutely everything and that perspective is so jarringly different from that of Tolkien that they are simply incapable of crafting a story that remotely resembles anything he wrote (other than the "member berries."
Actually, I would in no way categorize oliphaunts as "reasonable", but "extremely unlikely": Rohan was invaded by Easterlings, Oliphaunts are from (Far) Harad. Any oliphaunt attacking Rohan would have had to go through Gondor first. I don't see that happening.
*Yeah, great point ~ The only reference we know of them - prior to the Third Age of Endor, to be exact - was when Sam makes mentions of Haradwaith and Oliphaunts in the tales of the past (which could suggest Hobbits had ventured to Harad during the First Age, though we know Hobbits migrated from Rhun during the Eldar Days to the West ~ The former point would also be a reference to when Earendil ventures to Haradwaith and encounters the pygmies ~*
I forget which lore channel it was, but they pointed out that they could've been shipped up the coast to Dunland that way, but yea still kind of unlikely
They could have gone the longer way around, through eastern mordor, but yeah.
Well, they could put them on huge ships I guess and sail around Gondor
Hera?!
They gave her a GREEK name?! They could not have given her a Norse name that would have been a lot more realistic?!
Gurls get it done! Whoohoo!
You know, it’s sad, I can almost hear the conversation with the writers justifying why they’re changing Tolkien.
It goes back to, they saw the Peter Jackson films & they associate Rohan with Éowyn, so of course in THEIR show, set in Rohan, Éowyn has to be the narrator and they have to have their own ORIGINALish pre-Éowyn Girl Boss.
They of course don’t understand how this cheapens Éowyn, ie. If everyone is special, than no one is special.
It’s not easy to write a character like Éowyn and make it logically work in the story, that’s why the character is so beloved.
We all know with their “girl boss” they’re going to take every shortcut which will make her a Caricature of Éowyn, their girl boss will be just innately good at everything & her only “growth or arc” is for the Men around her to accept her greatness. 🤦♂️
These things almost write themselves!
Why the way they write their girl boss Mary Sues is so damaging to stories is, people like courage & they don’t actually understand what being courageous is.
Courage is inextricably linked to duty & sacrifice, which modern writers HATE.
Courage is overcoming the fear you have & to not know if you will survive, but being willing to SACRIFICE yourself because you have a DUTY to try to protect others.
This is what makes Éowyn a great character, she demonstrates actual courage, she’s not fighting because she’s “better” than the Men, she probably knows she’s weaker than most, but is willing to sacrifice herself to protect others.
The best scene in Kill Bill to demonstrate this, that so many people overlook is, when the Bride goes to face off will Bill for the last time, when she leaves her sleeping daughter, she hangs her necklace on her daughter’s photo of her, because she doesn’t know if she is going to survive, but wanted to make sure she left her daughter something, in case she doesn’t.
It’s incredibly subtle, but a very powerful “show don’t tell” moment.
Nope, she's going to be the tragic heroine who gets written out of Rohirric history along with the tribe of Shieldmaidens she draws inspiration from. The makers already basically said that when describing their view of her character. It's a tragic story where the real villain was The Patriarchy all along and The Patriarchy ultimately won. 🙄
Another girl boss movie. WB never going to do another good Middle Earth movie like LOTR again.
Why is Red Sonja in a movie based on Tolkien now? What's next, Conan, or maybe Skeletor?
Of course they're hamfisting a girl boss into the story.
Because that always ends well.
This looks exactly like that kids Disney film Brave , down to everything, if a shape shifting bear turns up 😂 I'll die.
I've loved Tolkien's works ever since I first discovered it at a very young age (I'm 42 now). I'm also one of a relatively small group of people who loved all six of PJ's Middle-earth movies to the point that I would call the series as a whole my favourite films of all time. But after The Battle of the Five Armies, I felt like Middle-earth adaptations were over and done. Everything that Tolkien actually wrote in sufficient detail to adapt, had been adapted. Any other adaptation would have to imagine so much that it couldn't possibly feel right. And I know, The Hobbit already added a lot, and I was okay with that. But one of the reasons why I didn't complain about it is that I thought that would be the end of cinematic Middle-earth and I was happy to see as much of it as possible. Now, however, with Rings of Power, and this, and the upcoming Gollum movie... I just can't be bothered to care about any of it in the slightest, which is an entirely new feeling for me when it comes to Tolkien adaptations. It just makes me sad. You had a bunch of fantastic movies, now it's over. Please leave well enough alone. That's how I feel about all this.
One of the writers was the daughter of Philippa boyans no doubt raised as a radical feminist. Women can’t write male dominate characters it goes against everything they believe in. Tolkien didn’t even give her a name. Hera sounds Greek not Anglo Saxon.
As soon as I heard ‘the boy knew’ I audibly groaned
Hold your Mumakil. The other army was landed by sea, at the Isen, so Oilphaunts is a very far stretch. There are very few occurrences historically of elephants carried by ship before modern times, and Mumakil are many times bigger. And if you refer to the army from the East, it is even more far-fetched that Easterlings would have access to these beasts.
The Rohirrim did help Gondor fight of a Corsair/Haradrim attack arriving by land roughly 100 years later, so they may have met them before WoR, but they were hardly present at this time. Rumors of this occasion, or any earlier confrontation with Gondor alone, may have spread the rumor that came up as a nursery rhyme in Samwise Gamgee's family.
Looks like another must miss at the theatre
I had high hopes for a while.
And obviously they have make up there own stories, but they should remain true to published canon and make the story ‘feel’ like Tolkien
What the people wanted, another modern Disney princess 😒
So in short… It’s not the books and it can’t compete.
#respectthelore
Animated has so much more potential than live action in my opinion. Imagine a first age series written by the guy that done "blood of zeus". Would be perfect to me.
One thing to keep in miind. If they follow the story, Hera should die. Fréaláf Hildeson led an attack from Dunharrow against Edoras and, eventually becomes King because all of Helm's progeny were dead.
Yes he Fréaláf Hildeson began the second line
Why should she die? As a woman she has no claim to the throne.
@@Bayard1503 Two reasons. First, there is literally no mention of her after the initial meeting.
Second, if she had a child, it could challenge the throne. And no one challenged the succession of Fréaláf.
Fréaláf is the real hero of the War of the Rohirrim. He takes back Edoras, kills Wulf and drives the Dunlendings from Rohan.
Hera can rule the world because she is Sauron in a wig.
Finally Tolkien for a modern audience.
The movie footage at the beginning really sets the tone of this. Instant member berries to poison the cake.
Did you mean: *to put cake frosting on the poison*
The entirety of Helms story as writ in the lore is perfectly adaptable in this story. It's not like there's a massive trilogy tome of Helm Hammerhand lore. That's not really the problem here. The major problem is that Rings of Power exists and has us all concerned that all of the lore the 'new stuff' is taking place between is going to be poorly adapted lore.
Beautiful trailer I must say.
Maybe you’re just trying to be the Gandalf of UA-cam, wielding your staff of opinion like it’s the One Opinion to Rule Them All. Sure, the animation might not be everyone’s cup of tea, but remember the 1978 animated "Lord of the Rings"? It was a medieval fever dream we still love! And if the narrative direction is a concern, let’s acknowledge that stories evolve sometimes the cheerleader saves the world, and that’s just fucking badass. At the end of the day, it's all about the love for Middle-earth, even if we occasionally disagree on the journey. After all, it's these different opinions that keep the fandom alive.
Didn't like the 1978 version either.
Tolkien's stories don't evolve. It's the people who take his work and manipulate into their own image of what they want it to be... thus, it's no longer Tolkien's story.
@@TheOneRingcom I really believe that Tolkien's works are like the Mona Lisa of fantasy literature, truly special. When I hear about adaptations like "The War of the Rohirrim," I get excited to see how they bring the stories from the appendices to life. Even if they add new characters, like Héra, Helm Hammerhand's daughter, I see it as a chance to explore more of Tolkien's world. Adaptations can help introduce his universe to new fans and keep the magic alive. I’m all for embracing these adaptations, whether they stick closely to the original texts or take some creative liberties. In the end, it’s about what resonates with all of us as fans. Each of us has our own connection to Tolkien's work, and that diversity of opinions only enriches our love for his stories. Whether we prefer the original texts or the adaptations, it’s our shared passion that keeps Tolkien’s spirit alive in our community!😊
The opening soundbite is everything I have ever said about this whole... "era" summed up so perfectly
We are in the era of desecration and sacrileges, friends, let us not be surprised.
Thank you so much for saying what you said! You now have my absolute loyalty and more views coming!
The last of Tolkien we got was in the first Hobbit-Movie. Oh and in "Lord of the Rings Online", a long running MMO
Correct. Wtf, what is that thing with these Princess. I dont know anything about her
Remember? Remember? This is the story Tolkien never wrote! Doesn't Hera sounds good for the unnamed daughter of Helm?
It really angers me that they would use a name derived from Greece based on a group of people inspired by historical groups quite disconnected. It's like they used a baby name generator "Our girl boss is a hero. Let's make it a girl version of that" with no regard for the actual origin. Details matter.
@@KatAdVictoriam Maybe they got their lores mixed up. They thought they were making a movie based on Wonder Woman.
I was initially hyped for this. Girlboss incoming!
This suffers from the same problem that plague the Netflix's Witcher tv show. The writers unfortunately trying to write a dtory that the author Andrej Sapkowski never wrote. 🤦♂️
You could have had her be a shield-maiden type who gets thrust into a exceptional circumstances and needs to fight, sure. But the story shouldn't be ABOUT her. It should be about the fall of the house of Helm Hammerhand, the deaths of his two sons, himself and his nephew coming up to continue the line of Eorl
It becomes more and more obvious to me that if you read Lord of the rings and you think you know something about Tolken that you actually know maybe 5% of what he was thinking and what he wrote, and the backstory.
Yes so fed up of the girl boss naritive
There's a Japanese trailer. That's the one that shows Saruman and other different scenes too.
I hadn't picked up the "you could rule the world" bit. 🤭🙄 I'll watch it in theaters because my heart belongs to Rohan but I'm sure I will need to suppress some groans.
Sure, buy a ticket and reward them for trashing Tolkien.
This is why we can't have nice things.
They know that most people that watched the movies did not read the books. This is just a another money grab by continuing the popular she-warrior theme that began in my mind with Disney's Little Mermaid.
She-warrior theme is NOT popular.
when I saw the trailer I knew this reaction was coming 😅
"There's no source material. We don't have comic books. We don't have 800-page novels. We don't have anything other than passionate storytellers who get together and talk about what the next iteration might be." - Kathleen Kennedy on Star Wars.
There is so little Tolkien literature that they had to make up a feminist story based on an unnamed character in an appendix of Lord of the Rings.
They did it again.
Morgoth couldn't rule the entire middle earth, but this chicks gonna get shit done. 😂
"Speed Racer" (70s cartoon) meets Tolkien… A cartoon by any other name is still a cartoon.
I also think it looks like an old cartoon. For the life of me, I can't understand why they think this could draw an audience to a movie theatre. If it were a Netflix Original, okay, but a theatrical release?
This movie is DOA.
I confess I had a few expectations about this, after that nightmare that is ROP. My gosh what a mess. It doesn’t even seem Middle-Earth. I am struggling to understand the logic behind this project, really.
Oh, and by the way, enough with the nostalgia.
The focus on the girl: Disappointing. The look of the characters: Disappointing - too much like Manga. It´s a northern european, not a japanese tale. The focus on modern themes: Disappointing. This story takes place in a kind of old, anglo-saxon world. I, as a reader and fan of Tolkien, want to dive in that world, I don´t want a new chapter of modern ideas. Another wasted chance.
When it comes to films. Animation for the most part does not have a jerky look like that unless it's a low budget TV show, whenever they use CGI in anime, it's because they're cutting corners, since the models rendered at a lower framerate than the ones that are hand drawn, this means this project is not only rushed and has a small budget, but likely doing the same thing as ROP story wise as you guys siad. That's probably why it looks so bad in between some shots. Animation can seriously have good and appeasing art even if you don't really have a thing for it. This film is gonna leave a bad impression on people who already don't like the animation medium. But yea the set pieces look really good though, when the CGI is not interfering with it
And by the way, the movie is not even “anime” as in animated in Japan… it’s just another “anime is soooo popular with the kids, let’s copy the style and call it a day!!”
@@gustyko8668 - As I mentioned to you on your own comment, 'anime' is just gairaigo for any animation. So you can dispense with the juvenile cynicism.
@@jachyra9I don’t think it’s cynicism, he’s actually not wrong, either. Western animation has self immolated and people don’t trust things coming out of western animation studios anymore, while Japanese produced anime is very popular. It’s a conscious decision to bait and switch.
@@Thor-Orion - 🙄
Make it make sense. I agree, Jonathan: From what I've seen of it, I'm not much of a fan of Anime. To me, it takes me out of the reality of the action, even if the action is meant to be in Animated form. I'm disappointed, because I saw the concept art for TWOTR, about 4 years ago, and I was rather piqued. It looked very much like a video game cinematic, which always works for me, and many other general viewers, as well. Since hearing about this project, I'm surprised that Peter Jackson and others didn't go the Animated route of his and Spielberg's excellent, The Adventures Of Tin Tin. That would've been very evocative and further groundbreaking, for this kind of fare. That, right there, is cause for worry. Now, finding out that the story is following the trend of TROP, and seems to be giving the main stage to a female character who isn't even given a name by Tolkien, makes me feel even more alienated from this new story...one I'm not even familiar with, to be honest, but, know of. For the last 4 years, I've been hoping this film would be the antithesis of, TROP...instead, it seems like it could be a companion piece. The change in the Animation style, and the alteration to the source material, incline me to avoid seeing this; at least, until I've heard diehard Tolkien Fans (like you, Mike and Jonathan) evaluate it. What's the point, really, if this is just some brand new, original tale that is set in TLOTR Universe; if it's not staying true to the actual appendices that inspired it. They might as well have just created an entirely new story, just setting it in Tolkien's world, during a time he never clearly depicted. Thanks for the analysis, Gentlemen. Keep the fellowship strong...
So, they're re-writing Middle-Earth history with this production, as they've done with every production that was associated with Tolkien's works, since after the Peter Jackson films. Essentially saying that "Tolkien did it wrong, we can do it better".
I'm turned off, and tuned out, to this.
Its best to not touch Tolkien's works ever again, and let the fans picture his world in our minds as intended while reading the books.
"Tolkien did it wrong, we can do it better" is exactly what Team Jackson claimed.
@@jachyra9 Did they?
@@SpatialSpandex - Yes.
@@jachyra9 Wow, you are really on here being a reply guy, what a loser.
I mean, you could just not watch it?
Instead of the epic story of the epic character the author wrote of, we are once again getting the story of someone unnamed and unimportant. Because the producers of these undesired products want to insert their own vision. And they use Tolkiens work as a vehicle to achieve this. The big name dropping and a plethora of of memberberries are used to sell us these ideas. There is no chance I would watch this. I have better things to do!
Why does hollywood feel the need to make up these "girlboss" characters for Middle-Earth when Tolkien actually wrote so many powerful female characters in his stories?... Do they not actually read Tolkien?... I would literally watch a whole movie on the wife of Hurin, Turin's mother, and the struggles she went through and the strength she showed, even helping to unite her people against the forces of Morgoth... Why can't we get that movie?...
at least the Japanese trailer doesn't ignore Helm and his sons
I'm just gonna watch it in Japanese and pretend it's some fanfiction spinoff.
Sorry, but I have to correct you again. There was some "Mordor" at the time. The Witch-King and other Nazgul overwhelmed Minas Ithil in TA2002, after abandoning Angmar. It was renamed Minas Morgul. Sure, Sauron wasn't yet there and Barad-Dur wasn't rebuilt, but it wasn't an empty wasteland.
Thanks for that. I am rapidly becoming a Japanese Trailer bore, for which I am qualified by complete ignorance of anime. Anyway there is one and it answers various of your points. We do see Helm in the snow, we see more of his sons, we see Saruman. It's also much more exciting, fast paced and action-led, and the animation style looks better in it. Hera comes across as less of a girl-boss, with a genuine love for her father. There are different legacy scenes in the opening, so with luck there are none in the film.
Yeah "rule this world" is worrying. However barbarian "foederati" weren't always the most reliable of allies. Maybe Helm has in mind Vidugavia, king of Rhovanion, who did marry his daughter to the heir of Gondor's throne, thus setting off the Kin-strife.
I realise none of this will convince you. For now I hope to enjoy it for what it is, a fan-fiction in a style with its own conventions, acceptable as long as it (in some indefinable way) feels at home in Tolkien's world.
Peter Jackson ... Helm's Deep Archer better have a cameo, i'm also expecting Peter Jackson anime cameo.
Read some of the articles on Screen Rant where some of the writers talk about it…you will love their take, trust me.
Devil's advocate on Helm's daughter's name. Héra seems to be a Saxon word meaning "follower" and other similar stuff, so at least that's consistent with Rohirric names. Everything else in the trailer, minus the punch, has nothing to do with Tolkien.
I heard this movie is mainly just a rights retainer, that's only reason it's been made. It's Peter Jackson trying to show he can still do lotr way better than Amazon ROP.
I believe that we need another 10 years for another Tolkien adaptation
Bro let the damn trailer roll more than 5 seconds jesus
They can't. If they go too long with a clip, WB might copyright strike them.
June 2021 was the original announcement of the project, which was still prime girl-boss era I guess. Production timeline made it 3 years too late to the girl-boss party.
I think it's the most likely explanation for this. In that time, it was still the height wokesim and I wouldn't be surprised if the investors and studio heads made it a condition for the writers to insert "Girlboss/Strong Female Character" as the main lead or else the movie wouldn't be made.
After everything that TROP repurposed from PJ's films....WB went and repurposed "I'm the faster rider"?
A bad copy of a bad copy of a bad copy.
@@jachyra9 Oy! I stan PJ's LOTR films. Sure, it was disappointing not to see Glorfindel, but I understand why they switched him out for Arwen from an adaptation perspective. And I eventually forgave them for what they did to Faramir. It took a few years. He's my favorite character from the books. But I forgave them. Even if I'm still wistful for what could have been, with David Wenham as one of those unicorn castings who looked and sounded exactly how I always imagined the character he played.
But having an ancient Elf lady be a better rider than her mortal lover who was nicknamed for his *walking* skills is fundamentally different from just arbitrarily naming the only girl in a family of Horse Lords to be the bestest.
@@sarahgould5435 - Jackson's films are a horrible adaptation. I love watching them and own them in every iteration available. But they're still a profusion of arrogance, bad choices and a fundamental misunderstanding of what Tolkien wrote.
@@jachyra9 I can go along with that. At least in some respects. Certainly Jackson and Wenham both admitted they couldn't understand Faramir, which is why I forgave them. If you can't understand it, you can't portray it. At least it wasn't a deliberate corruption of his character for the sake of drama. Or for the sake of proving a point or sending a message that only exists beyond the fourth wall.
@@jachyra9 While I partially agree with you at least PJ's versions felt like middle earth. The ROP and this do not.
If Payne and McKay and these anime makers wanted to tell the story Tolkien never wrote, why didn't they do that sequel 200 years after Aragorn took the throne, that Fourth Age sequel Tolkien managed one chapter of before deciding it wasn't what he wanted? Why always a prequel? Why not some time when it would be perfectly legitimate to create new characters and small changes in the societies Tolkien created would be understandable? And licensing those parts would cost less, right?
Y'know, after replying to other people's comments below, I just realised here I've broken my own rule about "fgodsake don't give them ideas". I'm sorry.
Because they cannot create only destroy.
Freca is not a Dunlending, he's a noble of Rohan, albeit with some Dunlending blood, to the point of having dark hair.
And no, oliphants aren't reasonable, either, because the while there was an invasion force involved from the east, the actual conquering of Rohan was done by Wulf from the west, with the Dunlending strengthened by forces that landed in the mouths of Isen and Lefnui, and those definitely didn't bring any oliphants along (and BTW, that eastern invasion force wouldn't have a way to get them through Gondor territories, either).
Also, Michael: Faramir doesn't face nazgul many times, all we know about is that one time when he was pursued by them on his return to Minas Tirith, and he takes so long to succumb to the black breath because, unlike Éowyn, he didn't engage with them in a hand-to-hand combat.
War of the Ro-HER-im
Starring HER-a
Girl boss and slaying Queen of the Realm.
So sick of this nonsense.
When this project was announced, I was looking forward to it. Specially after Amazon's Rings Of Crap. But couple months ago, after that interview with Boyens about Hera and "exploring" her character, my hopes were dashed. And now we have this trailer. Some streams That Iv'e watched say that the Japanese version of it is more balanced and focuses more on the story of the war of Rohirrim than on the Girl boss. But Trailers are deceptive and the English trailer raised so many red flags for me (Hera's lines and one line "you could rule the world". ugh.) that I lost all hope for this.
😞
Wow this is bad. She can rule the world. She can rule Gondor & the Dunedian. 😂
I'd love to see her try to rule the world. Can you imagine? Of all the peoples of Middle Earth, the Rohirrim were the least likely to be able to conquer the world. 😃😃🙃The Elves would have laughed at a human woman trying to tell them what to do. Elves bow to any human naive lordling, male or female ? Seriously? Galadriel is already in her forest bearing one of the three rings, Elrond, controls Rivendell, and also, bears one of the rings of power. Dwarfs, were in their caves. They would have ignored her, more than likely, until her armies marched on their kingdoms and then they would have come out of their caves, axes swinging. the Easterlings would have armies of thousands to oppose her... I suspect the Dunadain would have defending the north until the last of them drew their last breath. Maybe she could have conquered and ruled the Shire? Oh, and the Wizards? The bad guys... the trolls, the witch king of Angmar? the hordes of goblins and orcs in the dark places of the earth? (what if conversations are always so fascinating!)
Instead, just encourage her to rule their own kingdom with justice and fairness, mercy and strength.
I've always hated that parents' tendency to say stupid unrealistic things to their kids. Tell kids what they can actually hope to do... so the child can see what they can honestly aim towards to succeed. That is my main complaint about Mary Sue's in entertainment is, It, as a trope, builds up unrealistic expectations.
Thr only shred of joy I can get from a premise like that - like in every damned prequel from Star Wars, Star Trek and every other poisoned universe - is knowing that the plan FAILS.
You are spot on.
13:50 also, which rings would they be collecting at this point? The Nine were already in the hands of the Nazgul, while the Seven and the Three have nothing to do with men or Rohan.
Some of the footage you were looking for is actually on the Japanese trailer. For example: Saruman, apparently at the coronation of Frealaf. I'm guessing that this is only a cameo. The Japanese trailer is worth a look for more new footage and a somewhat different tone.
I would also suggest that some of the lines we hear on the English-language trailer might be out-of-context and might not even be addressed to the characters that it seems are being spoken to. That said, "You could rule the world" still seems out of place. Btw, if this movie is set within the continuity of the Peter Jackson films, the mention of Mordor might not be a problem. Sauron probably was not yet in Dol Guldur in the films where Mirkwood was still the Greenwood at this time.
Here we go again🙄!
Everybody is seek and tired of girlsboss, why do they continue producind it?
In Critical drinkers best voice "THE MESSAGE". Hollywood doesn't patrons or fans or people with wallets, even, they want adherents and true believers.
Because pr0paganda is enforced and not asked for by the masses.
We're stuck with 2nd and 3rd age fanfiction because the 1st age is locked down. There are no more stories to tell in the available source material
I’m so disappointed. I have wanted an animated adaptation of Tolkien’s world for so freaking long. They finally announced they would be doing it, and now we see it’s another generic ass girl boss story that Tolkien didn’t write. Warner Bros is extremely stupid. This could have been a smash hit had they decided to just have decided to stay true to the lore.
Writer Phoebe Gittins is the daughter of Philippa Boyens.
Also, why did the chose a name from Greek Mythology, instead of an OE/Anglo Saxon name, like the rest of the Eorlingas?? 🤔🐎
Because they hate northern and Western Europeans the most.
Eh? Why else? Hera's the qween of da gods or something. At least she ain't Artemis or Athena. Though Nemesis might suit her better though we'll have to wait and see
Yes! My thoughts here too. I hate it.
Or even Norse mythology which Tolkien also used in his writings.
This trailer is every bit the rubbish I was expecting and then some... 😞
If someone told me, more than 20 years ago, when I would spend long hours on TORC's forums 😉 discussing the changes made in PJ's trilogy, almost screaming murder at the idea of Arwen at the Ford, Elves at Helm's Deep, etc... that EVERY single adaptation of Tolkien''s works done after Peter Jackson's would be worse, more disrespectful, and more arrogant and ill-conceived than the previous one, I wouldnt't have believed it 😩It would be ironic if it wansn't so heartbreaking.
Nowadays, I just dread the news of more Tolkien's "adaptations" 😢 (thank Eru we still have "new" books and The One Ring channel)
If they never adapted anything Tolkien ever again, I'd be happy.
@@FinrodFelagund5 Well, we've seen the alternative.
... I've already had the same reaction to everything I loved growing up: Doctor Who, Star Trek, Star Wars, Isaac Asimov's Foundation, TRON...
I concur with your take on the character of Faramir.
As someone who despises the Rings of Power and hates anime; I still am looking forward to this.
I guess the fact that this is a niche story and not something far more important like Fingolfin fighting Morgoth.
There will be mistakes for sure, but "what does Mordor want with rings" is far less egregious to me then making Galadriel single, daughterless, and thirsty with the temperament of a human tween.