I’m having a wonderful time discussing this series with you, Philip! Thank you so much for hosting this one and sharing so many great insights, as always. I’m excited to read and discuss The Great Ordeal!
Great discussion friends. I enjoyed it a lot. I hope you will enjoy the next two because this is where Bakker truly takes the free fall into the abyss 😁 Some comments on what you discussed. The Thing Called Soma (a title name thats clearly a nod to Lovecraft) wants to save Mimara because an Anasurimbor comes at the end of the world. The Consult have the same prophecy but not as a saviour but as a doombringer. Whats the truth?! Regarding the end of the mighty, iconic Nil'Giccas, I felt that in his final moment he had a moment of clarity maybe. He seems to deliberately lowering down his guard for Achamian to strike him and defeat him. Like he willingly sacrificed himself. Another comment I would like to make is how often you wonder if Kellhus planned this and that. I find Kellhus writing in general, a testament to Bakker's ingenuity. We constantly wonder about him. Sometimes root for him. Sometimes hate him. Its so brilliant and thought provoking. Time for Inrilatas. Definitely one of my favourite characters of the whole series. Every scene with him radiates tension. And Bakker manages to do that with a person who is mostly restrained. Such great writing. And such an insightful and genuinely insane character. I wish we had many more pages with him. But then again maybe he would not have the same impact. His scenes with Kel and Maithanet are mind blowing. About the White Luck Warrior. Maybe I misunderstood you. I think its clearly implied that the Narindar Esmenet hires is the White Luck Warrior whose mind blowing, all time present, pov we experience. He even introduces himself as the Gift of Yatwer. He is the guy Psatma used in the ritual in the Judging Eye. Finally I would like to pay respects to Bakker's imagination. People often talk about his prose, his characters, his brave storytelling, the philosophy, the dark nature of it but I really think he is a writer who has so many absolutely brilliant ideas. So many great, original concepts. The pov of the White Luck Warrior, the damaged brains of the Nonmen, the Judging Eye, The qirri and its origins, just a few from this book only. A real twisted and rich feast for our imagination. I really cant wait for your discussion of the Great Ordeal. This book is so dense, atmospheric and mind f#@%ing. What is Kellhus doing with Proyas...?
Really enjoying your conversations on these books. Thank you both for doing these great deep dives. Something that always strikes me when hearing others' thoughts, is that nobody seems to be as interested in Achamian's dreams as I am! They're the most fascinating part for me, and this book is the one where they really take a turn for the unexpected 🤔 I wonder what you guys will make of them (and everything else!) in TGO - my favourite of the seven books.
Yes, it’s an interesting point that Achamian’s dreams have altered! I’m not entirely sure why, but it could have something to do with him no longer being a Mandate Schoolman - he’s been untethered, so to speak.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Also, he did have that hypnotic episode with Kelhus during TTT. Coincidence? (this isn't a spoiler, by the way, I honestly don't know the answer)
Great discussion! Like Johanna, Inrilatas, Maithanet, and Kelmomas section was my favorite. It was a fascinating dynamic seeing three partial Dûnyain characters trying to read each other. Looking forward to hearing yours and Johanna's opinion on the final two books. This is where Bakker starts to really wild out after setting up the dominos over the previous five books.
I loved watching this. So many times I wanted to chime in with a comment, but that would spoil things for you. Can't wait to watch your discussion on The Great Ordeal! "He's asking these tough questions and looking at things that make us squirm." If I think about my all time favorite books, this is something I think most (if not all) share - authors who are not afraid to ask tough questions and make their readers squirm. If an author is making me squirm like this, that means they are challenging me and that's what I want from literature.
On the question of mimara's POV... Bakker has been asked about this a couple of times. His response to the one I could find reads: "The intellectual tradition has been to assign discursive knowledge to men, and intuitive knowledge (the knowledge of angels) to women, and to insist this distinction is actually flattering to women, even as it was used to systematically exclude them from public discourse and debate. I tell Mimara in the present tense because I presume this ontological distinction obtains in my world, and that Mimara is in fact closer to the god, possessing unmediated--immediate--knowledge of good and evil. The questions is what this makes out of all of Achamian's reasons."
It's also worth pointing out that there is one other POV who is written in present tense - the White-Luck Warrior, a being who possesses the gods' perception of time. From this I think we can reasonably gather that these tense/POV decisions are very deliberate and follow an internal logic. There's one more coming in book 3...
An hour and a half of my favorite tubers discussing one of my favorite books of all time???? The No God is happy and my day has been made. Inrilatis and Cleric are two of my favorite characters in fantasy ever. What a fantastic discussion. Cheers.
You nailed it when you were talking about Sorweel being controlled by things beyond anything he can actually perceive. This is the whole idea behind the darkness that comes before. The dunyain were obsessed with being able to become self-moving souls completely in control of their motivations, and throughout the books so far Bakker has left it up in the air to what extent has Kellhus mastered the darkness, but we are shown over and over again how everyone else is completely controlled, and all that varies is to what degree are they aware of it.
@@smoothbrane Thanks! That doesn’t leave much room for free will, but I love that Bakker leaves so much mystery around Kellhus. Is he in control? Is he mad? Is he manipulative and deceitful? Is he humanity’s savior?
I believe the skin spies absolutely do have feelings. In fact, I think they're a lot like children... Or more specifically, like one little adorable murder child in particular. On multiple re-reads, the parallels between Kel, the Soma-spy, and the Sarcellus-spy whose POV we get in the first series, become very clear. Remember, Mim looks on Soma with the Eye, and sees the truth: he loves her. I don't think that can be fake.
Holy crap. You are right about Kel. This may confirm a theory I have been playing with 🤔 I just started reading The Great Ordeal and I believe Khellus refers to his people as a "terrible race". 🤔🤔🤔
Great discussion! I had just finished this one not too long ago so this was a delight to rehash with before I start the Great Ordeal. Can't wait for the next video! Thank you both for covering this series!!
Great conversation. I agree with everything that you both mentioned with perhaps one exception, the dynamic between Achamian and Mimara. I don't know if Bakker had this planned from the Prince of Nothing or the start of the tetralogy but I like it just slightly more that Akka's relationship with Esmenet. I am looking forward to your discussions on the last two books in the Aspect-Emperor tetralogy.
Such a great discussion! Over at Page Chewing, we’re finishing up THE GREAT ORDEAL tonight. You’re in for a doozy with it. Bakker is unrelenting and a true talent.
White-Luck Warrior is the pinnacle of all the series! Imo, the first trilogy was very good, not excellent though, but already The Judging Eye got everything to a totally different level, and this book just gave me the wows! Interesting, Philip, what you said about the battles, as I am partly or maybe totally of the same opinion. In this series he has a bad habit of saying this lord of this or these people from there did that, and I was also wondering, who? However, so far he has an excellent way of portraying a battle without going into too much detail, which I like a lot. That was actually one of the main things I liked in his original trilogy. Never thought about any Tokien connection, but then I read those books almost four decades ago. However, now when you mention it, it feels maybe probably? Not so sure about the "drug", as that is not like lambas bread really - although, I have to say that I don't know what lambas bread is made of. Nevertheless, I can't remember when the contents of the powder are revealed so better not to say too much, and the same goes for the different races themselves. Unfortunately, I have to now leave this already at 15 minutes... Will hopefully return at some time though. A great discussion so far!
This has lit the fire under my ass to continue the re-read. Aside from the Skin Eater storyline, i don't remember about this book specifically and I found the previous 4 enlightening on re-read. From memory the White-luck Warrior stuff was the hardest for me to grasp... and then Great Ordeal happened 😂
I really enjoyed the nods to Middle Earth too. Like y'all said, it wasn't what most Fantasy authors do and consciousnessly or subconsciously follow the plot outline to LoTR and The Hobbit. It was a very deliberate homage and subversion (and there's more to come 😉).
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I should clarify not 'most' authors overall, but those who are inspired by Tolkien, particularly in all those D&D franchise novels a lot of us read growing up.
Yatwer's pov is also in present tense. (An advantage to google search after reading the series) WLW for me had moments of brilliance and confusion. It also suffers coming between JE and TGO which are probably my favorite of the series. You really want to have hope for some of the characters but there is always this overarching sense of doom. Regarding the qiri, the ceremony reminded me a lot of communion. Quite intentional Inwould bet. Kelhus' motivations are still vague. Does he want to defeat, join or have a mind meld with the No God. The women really do take center stage. They seem to be trying to change while the men are stuck in their roles. But it is about the relationship of a mother and her children. And you are what you eat. Eggs, eggs and sranc, sranc sranc eggs bacon and sranc. Apologies to Monty Python.
@@EricMcLuen Someone on the Great Ordeal must have ended up writing a recipe book for sranc. Like Bubba from Forest Gump, only sranc instead of shrimp.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Bakker might also be the only author who has brought my reading to a complete stop after a sentence like that. He did it several times.
Buckle up Philip you thought the series was bleak so far get ready for 'The Great Ordeal'; also will you be reading the short stories before unholy consult? they give a lot of perspective for what happens in the last 2 books. Also will you be having jimmy or slowlyred on for the final conversation? i feel like you will need a seasoned reader of the series to fully understand what happens at the end of the series.
@@kierenvarney2159 Thanks, Kieren! I always love chatting with Jimmy and Mark and would definitely benefit from their experiences and perspectives on this series.
Chapter 7 I would read really carefully and ponder before moving through the rest of the book and honestly once you read the ending you will understand why you need someone to explain what happens. I've had multiple re-reads and still would've struggled without marks videos they're great for anyone struggling with understanding the story. Enjoy the Slog
Well, I said you see me in your comment section. But then, you also know what I think about Bakker. Anyway, as promised, here I am, in your comment section.😂 All the best, Philip!
It's mentioned that Cleric didn't activate his Wards when he attacked Achamian. I interpreted it as Cleric giving Achamian a chance to save himself. I don't think Akka would be able to kill him if he had his Ward/Shield on.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy People have many different interpretation of that scene. I guess it was kinda ambiguous 😅 I also want to mention that the next two books are basically one book split into two parts by the publisher (like Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God), so the structure may feel a bit weird.
It is intriguing isn't it, how Kellhus on the one hand has taken possession of mankind, which is a bad thing, but he is using that power to fight a great evil, so should we feel grateful about that?
I was raised by Doyle Verne Asimov Tolkien and, maybe Herbert. I am begging you to do One Piece justice your first time around, you reacting to One Piece is something that does not exist right now, there aren't established professors and writers in the western world caring to do a professional breakdown of One Piece, and I'm begging for it. If you ever need help with anything, I would love to be a part of the first time the largest Manga was broken down by a lover of fantasy and literary expert such as yourself. We need a pioneer in this, or honestly what hope does classic fiction even have if there's no intelligent disciplined people bridging the gap to a younger generation.
I’m having a wonderful time discussing this series with you, Philip! Thank you so much for hosting this one and sharing so many great insights, as always. I’m excited to read and discuss The Great Ordeal!
The feeling is mutual, Johanna! Onward to the Great Ordeal!
The elvish assassin seems to have developed a proba ility trance with all the predictions.
But there is some joy when predictions are wrong.
@@EricMcLuen Wrong predictions are the most fun!
Great discussion friends. I enjoyed it a lot.
I hope you will enjoy the next two because this is where Bakker truly takes the free fall into the abyss 😁
Some comments on what you discussed.
The Thing Called Soma (a title name thats clearly a nod to Lovecraft) wants to save Mimara because an Anasurimbor comes at the end of the world. The Consult have the same prophecy but not as a saviour but as a doombringer. Whats the truth?!
Regarding the end of the mighty, iconic Nil'Giccas, I felt that in his final moment he had a moment of clarity maybe. He seems to deliberately lowering down his guard for Achamian to strike him and defeat him. Like he willingly sacrificed himself.
Another comment I would like to make is how often you wonder if Kellhus planned this and that. I find Kellhus writing in general, a testament to Bakker's ingenuity. We constantly wonder about him. Sometimes root for him. Sometimes hate him. Its so brilliant and thought provoking.
Time for Inrilatas. Definitely one of my favourite characters of the whole series. Every scene with him radiates tension. And Bakker manages to do that with a person who is mostly restrained. Such great writing. And such an insightful and genuinely insane character. I wish we had many more pages with him. But then again maybe he would not have the same impact. His scenes with Kel and Maithanet are mind blowing.
About the White Luck Warrior. Maybe I misunderstood you. I think its clearly implied that the Narindar Esmenet hires is the White Luck Warrior whose mind blowing, all time present, pov we experience. He even introduces himself as the Gift of Yatwer. He is the guy Psatma used in the ritual in the Judging Eye.
Finally I would like to pay respects to Bakker's imagination. People often talk about his prose, his characters, his brave storytelling, the philosophy, the dark nature of it but I really think he is a writer who has so many absolutely brilliant ideas. So many great, original concepts. The pov of the White Luck Warrior, the damaged brains of the Nonmen, the Judging Eye, The qirri and its origins, just a few from this book only. A real twisted and rich feast for our imagination.
I really cant wait for your discussion of the Great Ordeal. This book is so dense, atmospheric and mind f#@%ing.
What is Kellhus doing with Proyas...?
@@Red21Viper Thank you for the insights and encouragement! You said it all beautifully, and I appreciate it. Forward to the abyss!
Really enjoying your conversations on these books. Thank you both for doing these great deep dives.
Something that always strikes me when hearing others' thoughts, is that nobody seems to be as interested in Achamian's dreams as I am! They're the most fascinating part for me, and this book is the one where they really take a turn for the unexpected 🤔 I wonder what you guys will make of them (and everything else!) in TGO - my favourite of the seven books.
Yes, it’s an interesting point that Achamian’s dreams have altered! I’m not entirely sure why, but it could have something to do with him no longer being a Mandate Schoolman - he’s been untethered, so to speak.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Also, he did have that hypnotic episode with Kelhus during TTT. Coincidence?
(this isn't a spoiler, by the way, I honestly don't know the answer)
Great discussion! Like Johanna, Inrilatas, Maithanet, and Kelmomas section was my favorite. It was a fascinating dynamic seeing three partial Dûnyain characters trying to read each other. Looking forward to hearing yours and Johanna's opinion on the final two books. This is where Bakker starts to really wild out after setting up the dominos over the previous five books.
@@andrewhanson405 Man, it’s hard to imagine something more wild than what Bakker’s done already! I’m all in!
I loved watching this. So many times I wanted to chime in with a comment, but that would spoil things for you. Can't wait to watch your discussion on The Great Ordeal!
"He's asking these tough questions and looking at things that make us squirm."
If I think about my all time favorite books, this is something I think most (if not all) share - authors who are not afraid to ask tough questions and make their readers squirm. If an author is making me squirm like this, that means they are challenging me and that's what I want from literature.
@@jasonep2 Well said, Jason! Many great works of literature do exactly that!
On the question of mimara's POV... Bakker has been asked about this a couple of times. His response to the one I could find reads:
"The intellectual tradition has been to assign discursive knowledge to men, and intuitive knowledge (the knowledge of angels) to women, and to insist this distinction is actually flattering to women, even as it was used to systematically exclude them from public discourse and debate. I tell Mimara in the present tense because I presume this ontological distinction obtains in my world, and that Mimara is in fact closer to the god, possessing unmediated--immediate--knowledge of good and evil.
The questions is what this makes out of all of Achamian's reasons."
Thank you for that information! Much appreciated!
It's also worth pointing out that there is one other POV who is written in present tense - the White-Luck Warrior, a being who possesses the gods' perception of time. From this I think we can reasonably gather that these tense/POV decisions are very deliberate and follow an internal logic.
There's one more coming in book 3...
@@krispeysen54 Cool! Cheers!
I look forward to these discussions so much. Can't wait for the next one. Thank you both for your time and wonderful insights. 🙌🙏
Thank you for watching and commenting, Slay!
An hour and a half of my favorite tubers discussing one of my favorite books of all time???? The No God is happy and my day has been made. Inrilatis and Cleric are two of my favorite characters in fantasy ever. What a fantastic discussion. Cheers.
Thanks so much, Dan! I appreciate you!
Thank you, Dan! I wish we had more Inrilitas in this series!
You nailed it when you were talking about Sorweel being controlled by things beyond anything he can actually perceive. This is the whole idea behind the darkness that comes before. The dunyain were obsessed with being able to become self-moving souls completely in control of their motivations, and throughout the books so far Bakker has left it up in the air to what extent has Kellhus mastered the darkness, but we are shown over and over again how everyone else is completely controlled, and all that varies is to what degree are they aware of it.
@@smoothbrane Thanks! That doesn’t leave much room for free will, but I love that Bakker leaves so much mystery around Kellhus. Is he in control? Is he mad? Is he manipulative and deceitful? Is he humanity’s savior?
I believe the skin spies absolutely do have feelings. In fact, I think they're a lot like children... Or more specifically, like one little adorable murder child in particular. On multiple re-reads, the parallels between Kel, the Soma-spy, and the Sarcellus-spy whose POV we get in the first series, become very clear.
Remember, Mim looks on Soma with the Eye, and sees the truth: he loves her. I don't think that can be fake.
I appreciate your take and am inclined to agree! Thank you!
Holy crap. You are right about Kel. This may confirm a theory I have been playing with 🤔 I just started reading The Great Ordeal and I believe Khellus refers to his people as a "terrible race". 🤔🤔🤔
This book was among the best of the series. So great, so epic.
I completely agree, Jeroen!
I remember reading the first book years ago. I’ve grown as a reader and think I can handle it now. I’ll save this for later
Best wishes for the read!
Great discussion! I had just finished this one not too long ago so this was a delight to rehash with before I start the Great Ordeal. Can't wait for the next video! Thank you both for covering this series!!
@@alexanderrogers6506 I’m glad our timing worked out for you!
Great conversation. I agree with everything that you both mentioned with perhaps one exception, the dynamic between Achamian and Mimara. I don't know if Bakker had this planned from the Prince of Nothing or the start of the tetralogy but I like it just slightly more that Akka's relationship with Esmenet. I am looking forward to your discussions on the last two books in the Aspect-Emperor tetralogy.
@@josephd5879 Thanks so much for watching!
Such a great discussion! Over at Page Chewing, we’re finishing up THE GREAT ORDEAL tonight. You’re in for a doozy with it. Bakker is unrelenting and a true talent.
@@carlalbert6518 Thanks for the heads up, Carl! I expect nothing less from Bakker!
White-Luck Warrior is the pinnacle of all the series!
Imo, the first trilogy was very good, not excellent though, but already The Judging Eye got everything to a totally different level, and this book just gave me the wows!
Interesting, Philip, what you said about the battles, as I am partly or maybe totally of the same opinion. In this series he has a bad habit of saying this lord of this or these people from there did that, and I was also wondering, who? However, so far he has an excellent way of portraying a battle without going into too much detail, which I like a lot. That was actually one of the main things I liked in his original trilogy.
Never thought about any Tokien connection, but then I read those books almost four decades ago. However, now when you mention it, it feels maybe probably? Not so sure about the "drug", as that is not like lambas bread really - although, I have to say that I don't know what lambas bread is made of. Nevertheless, I can't remember when the contents of the powder are revealed so better not to say too much, and the same goes for the different races themselves.
Unfortunately, I have to now leave this already at 15 minutes... Will hopefully return at some time though. A great discussion so far!
Thank you for those thoughts! Much appreciated!
This has lit the fire under my ass to continue the re-read. Aside from the Skin Eater storyline, i don't remember about this book specifically and I found the previous 4 enlightening on re-read. From memory the White-luck Warrior stuff was the hardest for me to grasp... and then Great Ordeal happened 😂
@@thatsci-firogue I’m very curious to see how Bakker ends the series! Cheers!
I really enjoyed the nods to Middle Earth too. Like y'all said, it wasn't what most Fantasy authors do and consciousnessly or subconsciously follow the plot outline to LoTR and The Hobbit. It was a very deliberate homage and subversion (and there's more to come 😉).
@@osoisko1933 I look forward to what’s to come! Cheers, Oso!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I should clarify not 'most' authors overall, but those who are inspired by Tolkien, particularly in all those D&D franchise novels a lot of us read growing up.
Yatwer's pov is also in present tense. (An advantage to google search after reading the series)
WLW for me had moments of brilliance and confusion. It also suffers coming between JE and TGO which are probably my favorite of the series.
You really want to have hope for some of the characters but there is always this overarching sense of doom.
Regarding the qiri, the ceremony reminded me a lot of communion. Quite intentional Inwould bet.
Kelhus' motivations are still vague. Does he want to defeat, join or have a mind meld with the No God.
The women really do take center stage. They seem to be trying to change while the men are stuck in their roles.
But it is about the relationship of a mother and her children.
And you are what you eat. Eggs, eggs and sranc, sranc sranc eggs bacon and sranc. Apologies to Monty Python.
@@EricMcLuen Someone on the Great Ordeal must have ended up writing a recipe book for sranc. Like Bubba from Forest Gump, only sranc instead of shrimp.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Bakker might also be the only author who has brought my reading to a complete stop after a sentence like that. He did it several times.
@@EricMcLuen Same here!
Can’t wait until I’m done with work so I can watch this!
Is it too much to hope for that the entire video is a deep dive into Cleric’s sermons? 😀
@@jasonep2 Alas, I can’t say we discussed his sermons at all, but we did discuss him! Now to work on my sermons . . .
Buckle up Philip you thought the series was bleak so far get ready for 'The Great Ordeal'; also will you be reading the short stories before unholy consult? they give a lot of perspective for what happens in the last 2 books. Also will you be having jimmy or slowlyred on for the final conversation? i feel like you will need a seasoned reader of the series to fully understand what happens at the end of the series.
@@kierenvarney2159 Thanks, Kieren! I always love chatting with Jimmy and Mark and would definitely benefit from their experiences and perspectives on this series.
Chapter 7 I would read really carefully and ponder before moving through the rest of the book and honestly once you read the ending you will understand why you need someone to explain what happens. I've had multiple re-reads and still would've struggled without marks videos they're great for anyone struggling with understanding the story. Enjoy the Slog
Well, I said you see me in your comment section. But then, you also know what I think about Bakker. Anyway, as promised, here I am, in your comment section.😂 All the best, Philip!
Thank you for being here, Angela! Much appreciated! 😊
It's mentioned that Cleric didn't activate his Wards when he attacked Achamian. I interpreted it as Cleric giving Achamian a chance to save himself. I don't think Akka would be able to kill him if he had his Ward/Shield on.
A great explanation! Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy
People have many different interpretation of that scene. I guess it was kinda ambiguous 😅
I also want to mention that the next two books are basically one book split into two parts by the publisher (like Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God), so the structure may feel a bit weird.
@@t.hussain921 Thanks for the heads up!
Don't forget what all the Dunyain seeks, no matter what they're into. The Absolute.
It is intriguing isn't it, how Kellhus on the one hand has taken possession of mankind, which is a bad thing, but he is using that power to fight a great evil, so should we feel grateful about that?
@@jeroenadmiraal8714 I’m still puzzled about what I should think about Kellhus. One of the most fascinating characters I’ve encountered!
Kellhus is the savior we needed and deserved. He did nothing wrong that historians couldn't fix later.
I was raised by Doyle Verne Asimov Tolkien and, maybe Herbert. I am begging you to do One Piece justice your first time around, you reacting to One Piece is something that does not exist right now, there aren't established professors and writers in the western world caring to do a professional breakdown of One Piece, and I'm begging for it. If you ever need help with anything, I would love to be a part of the first time the largest Manga was broken down by a lover of fantasy and literary expert such as yourself. We need a pioneer in this, or honestly what hope does classic fiction even have if there's no intelligent disciplined people bridging the gap to a younger generation.