38:00 the Apollo call point that's in fire and still has the "remove after commissioning" label on it 😂. never mind I do love these vids, keep up the good work Tom
With the loose earth scenario at 19:00 you've effectively got a potential divider. Several metres of T+E with high (but not infinite) insulation resistance and an earth wire slap bang in between the two potentials. Any sort of load would haul it one way or the other, but a high impedance meter shows the stray voltage that's present. 3-pin equipment with input filter capacitors would make more current available on the earth wire, you might get a tickle off it then. We had that at work where one of the sockets feeding a bunch of PCs had no earth. I discovered that when I got a buzz from one of the PCs whilst also touching a metal desk frame.
For plugs in cabinets we cut a 60mm hole in the cabinet and put in a desk grommet and a double socket next to it and it looks very neat and you can fit a plug through without cutting off the plug
Tom, you can shut down the Start-Stop system on Renault cars/vans, both manually using a button on the dash (RTFM). Or permanently by modifying the ECU configuration (at the dealership or at a repair shop). I've had this issue as well, needed to swap my battery as well. BOSCH batteries seem to last much longer if you continue using Start-Stop tho.
The hole into the next cabinet works best just use a white plastic cover cap like you get going through desks for the computer cables makes a very neat job
Regarding your dead battery: the energy for the start-stop does not come directly from the battery, there are big capacitors under the left fender, who then dump the energy in the alternator (which is actually called a startergenerator) to turn over the engine. When the engine is running, the capacitors are directly charged by the alternator, so there is none to very little direct battery drain. I think your problems might have something to do with the accessories in your van, especially the hot water heater - you once said it draws about 20 amps. If this isn't correctly wired it could bypass the vehicle energy management system and therefore it doesn't register the additional power usage. Because the alternator does only charge the amount of energy which has been taken out (and has been measured), it simply could be that the battery isn’t held at a sufficient level and slowly dies.
Not sure about over there, but in America you can turn off the start stop manually each time you start the vehicle, or buy a module that does it automatically for you.
For white goods in a kitchen. I used to install an unstitched single socket behind (say a washing machine) controlled by a Fused Connection Unit above the bench. That was applianced can be isolated at any time. Love the new video style, great mix of content too. Thanks for sharing.
meh - tah - bow (as in arrow) 🙂 for the washing machine plug things. . . that bloke from Wills Electrical uses the desk grommet type things from amazon, and they work really well. I've used a dual fastfix boxes for them. one side has the single socket to plug into to, and the other side has the back drilled out with a holesaw. Pass the plugtop through, then place a single blank plate on that side. I'll send a tweet with a pic 🙂
About the socket for the washing machine dishwasher, I just cut a 80mm at the bottom of the unit and install desk grommet. The socket is installed and it's all accessible and easy enough to unplug and remove the appliance.
I'm an electronics man, me. Dunno why I would be watching this sort of content but it's genuinely interesting and entertaining. It's also great to see a bloke build a business and work as hard as Tom. Great channel, this.
19:45 Fun fact, You get capacitive/inductive coupling. Same thing happens on heating elements, especialy water heating elements, showers can have upto 18ma earth leakage due to capacitance.
19:45 The L- Pe and N-Pe voltage is usually half the L-N voltage because the capacitors in the filters in power supplys divide the voltage between L and N. The filters look like this: L-capacitor-Pe-capacitor-N 120V 120V
with regards to the washing machine dishwasher 20amp double pole switch on the ring going down to a single gang unswitched socket that way you can isolate if required and not invalidate the manufacturers warranty and the appliance is fused
Nice one Tom your post are like a breath of fresh air compared to some of the others that basically just rehash the same jobs on every post. Its either a EICR a consumer unit change a car charger install or some DIY numptie showing people who have absolutely no idea how dangerous electricity can be fitting a outside socket. Their is a old saying you need to remember when your getting grief at the office You might not be right all of the time But your always the boss dont let her bully you you need to put her in her place ( But dont tell her I said that) lol.
Totally with you on the van batteries. The stop start batteries are much more expensive too. And the alternators fail more often due to the heavier demand and they are 3 times the price. Stop/start barely saves any fuel anyway, it just lowers emissions in cities slightly.
Please please make a video elaborating and explaining more the reasons why you get a voltage when you have no cpc. A voltage where and for what reason? Thanks.
Hilti Wall Chaser and dust extractor in my opinion. Bought mine in 2007 direct from Hilti, it's been serviced once at a cost of £400, here we are in 2021, several hundred rewires later and its still as good as new. Also Hilti customer service is great the item is with them for no more than 4 days for the service.
I did a major shopping centre fire alarm panel that got flooded. We were instructed just to strip and dry every part to get the Centre open as it was a huge custom built and some components there were not enough spares in UK. Worked fine for months but over next few years it got more and more troublesome and of course costs were now in maintenance contract not to insurer. Always regretted it .
Stop start, the Battery Management System has a depleting counter so the battery only has a finite number of starts usually. Is there no way of turning of stop/start via an OBDII scanner. Also, sometimes you can use a sequence of button presses to reset the BMS when you fit a new battery.
Totally unnecessary "feature" to have to reset the ECU on a battery change. I wonder if you can fool it by connecting the two batteries in parallel while changing them over. Either way, the correct answer is to just not buy one. Support manufacturers that aren't there purely to force you to go to the dealership and harvest as much data about you as possible with their "connected cars".
Devices are available that are basically a timer - about a minute after switching the ignition on they will pulse a relay or optocoupler once - the "contact" of which is connected across the auto stop start button to simulate a press of the button so you don't have to do that every journey.
@@jimmyb1451 No, the charging voltage and current profile is changed over the life of the battery. Fitting a new one with or without disconnection will result in overcharging of a new battery and cause it to fail sooner than expected. Having a leisure/auxiliary battery connected with an old school big clunking relay/contactor split charge is a sure fire way to end up with both batteries failing sooner than expected. They need to be charged using a specific DC-DC converter, sometimes known as a battery-to-battery charger. Modern vehicles disable charging under hard acceleration to give you more hp at the wheels, and increase the charge rate during deceleration (sort of regenerative braking) but all that is very hard on the battery. I say modern, but some Ford vehicles have had smart charging for 20 years.
@@simonparkinson1053 Yeah, that's not how battery charging works at all. It's also not the reason the ECU needs to be reset. I haven't seen the systems, but I have heard of newer cars connecting through a shunt resistor to monitor current in and out of the batter (meaning a careless connection of a battery charger can put the vehicle into limp mode because the measured SOC doesn't match the computer's idea of where the battery should be in it's charge cycle, which is utterly ridiculous.) At any rate, if indeed a split battery system can in any way end in both batteries failing due to overcharge, that's far from what I would consider "smart charging". Either way, none of this is necessary, let alone required.
Dishwashers usually have a recessed area at the bottom for plugs and water connections, so I just did a recessed socket really low down for it, like an inch of the floor. This is however outside the UK, so I’m not sure what your regs say about that, but it has to be better than a floating socket. If the back wall allows, you could even recess a box so far back that the plug is recessed with it, a bit of plaster board or some premade metal box and you’d have a really neat setup.
Stop start vehicles are not about being environmentally friendly, it’s about the manufacturer being able to claim lower fuel consumption figures. Particularly when city driving.
You'll find alot of breakers for commercial/Industrial are dual standard to 60898/60947-2. For the kitchens I tend to fit the little grommets you normally see in desks into the hold the plug has come through to neaten it all up.
That metabo wall chaser is the dogs bollocks bud, I've got a cheap Screwfix special because I'm a cheapskate but a mate of mine has the metabo and extractor and she is an absolute monster doing a rewire worth every penny
Hi Tom, great vid. 👍Something I see a lot is where a 1ph or 3ph supply started it’s life as a TN-S supply. Then at some point, a section of cable in the road gets repaired/replaced with concentric & the odd rod..thereby making it a TN-C-S. If they also happen to upgrade the incoming Head at some point, then they’ll always call it a PME, (whatever the supply cable is doing,) make use of the PME MET, but leave the TN-S connection ( conductor or band) in place. It’s a pain if you’re trying to get a true Ze on a 1ph as you can’t always disconnect that parallel earth! So, if in any doubt, put TN-C-S. The flat end is a different kettle of fish 😂
Get a Ctek charger for the vans, CT5 or MSX 7.0 - I've got a 2.5l diesel and short journeys kill the battery. Once a week slap this on overnight and no issues.
+1 for CTEK chargers. You can get 12V cigarette lighter adapters for them so you can plug into the 12V socket instead of having to pop the bonnet. Convenient for trickle charging especially if all your vans are going to be in the unit overnight.
That flat installation is TN-C in the mineral insulated section, then TN-C-S from the connection blocks. Apart from the meters and supplier fuse being in the middle of the TN-C part, it’s exactly what the DNOs do to install a TN-C-S supply but they just cover the joint in insulation. Wouldn’t want to say if the regulations permit it though…
@@UberAlphaSirus that is a question I have asked on a couple of video’s. I am just a DIY’er and would never touch fuse box wiring but I have often thought 6 to 25mm is the wrong way around. We have 6mm coming into the house and asked the sparks why the tails were so big? ‘Regs’ I was told
I recon they ran all that MI cable in, then went to terminate it and found out it was single-core and went "Shit, wtf am I going to do now... Ah I know" 😂
stop/start is to get the "grams per kilometre" CO2 rating of the vehicle down to lower the rate of tax (ironically because it's "better for the environment", *apparently* ) - if you turn it off though you can still pay the same rate of tax, they just assume most people will leave it on so they go by that.
Tom, that lovely twisty springy lead you plug into your tester? It's a big fat inductor that can wildly change its turn density, length, shape, so no wonder it gives you variable readings! Stick with your triple straight leads for the win, as you have been doing :-D
Single core MI is so they can up the amp draw without shorting the cable and without taking up more space. It would have been TN-S as the conduit/ water would have been used for the main CPC. What has probably happen is the original has probably been linked due to issues with the sheath (broken cpc outside the block) so it would be classed as TNC-S at the supply origin as it's linked to stop induced voltage after a break found on the building supply cpc. So now they've converted the entire block into TNC-S, this sadly is quite common for cash strapped blocks of that age that suffer with broken supply cpc. It's not taught in colleges and like yourself many engineers look at it and are mind boggled. The BS 3871 / BS EN 60898 should be put in the report as a 60898, this is the number used after the merger with the EU back in 2004 - it's down to harmonization but essentially it's the same thing. Broken CPC is down to capacitance, I believe JW/ GSH and others have videos on it. The start of this video is exactly why we bypass the stop start on all our vans from the day we get them. Ever since stop start almost got one of the engineers killed on a roundabout the company is against it completely.
So the earth at the cu would have originally been fed by a water pipe? Making the whole system tns, but at some point the earth at the cu was swapped over the the micc neutral. It really confused me when he started saying it was tt as the earth was clearly coming from the neutral. Then at the main intake the earth cable coming from the armour of the supply cable is essentially earthing the cable from the installation tncs earth taken from the supply neutral. Would there have been a separate neutral conductor in the trunking feeding the micc cladding? Otherwise the trunking becomes a live conducter.
@@felixmoran1 Yes I don't know why he said TT or why they didn't correct themselves on the edit but it's TNC-S conversion not TT. You're correct on the main intake, the armour ring at some point back to the local transformer has been damaged and rather than dig up the road it has been converted to TNC-S. It was probably damaged long ago but no one would have noticed as the main water incomer at the main intake is bonded to it, but as is the water boards remit all old metallic pipework changes to plastic and then you lose your earthing conductor completely. Yes from when we have worked on them the MICC has been glanded at both ends and kept separate from things like metal trunking and wrapped in something a kin to denzo tape. Having note seen inside that trunking though I couldn't say for sure, though the badly done connection in the flat gives me a horrid feeling that which ever engineer did the conversion was not informed how to go about doing it safely. Though if everything in the building is connected to that trunking be it CPC or neutral the theory states the potential voltage difference is 0 volts and no shock risk. Not being there to test it I wouldn't like to say it's 100% safe in the current format though.
@@effervescence5664 thanks for the reply, why would the earth at the cu need to be swapped over for the conversion though? If it was a water pipe or conduit taking the earth to the flat originally, it wouldn't matter that the intake supply changed surely?
@@felixmoran1 I see some unused conduit below the CU in the flat, but normally the earthing arrangement up to the CU wouldn't have changed unless it had to. So you're right in that regard, supply characteristics changing at the intake shouldn't have effected the earthing arrangement to the flat. So possibly the earthing arrangement was an issue (missing after conduit disconnected or water pipe removal) hence they changed it to TNCS at the CU, or I am starting to think more is more likely they realised they had made the trunking live and have converted it all to reduce the potential to 0 volts.
Get some of them desk things you find in offices. I just stick that in the floor of the kitchen cupboard to bring the plug through. Hides the hole nicely!
I went too a job in Bermondsey that had this same system and I refused to take it on with installing a nee submain and lost the job on the strength of it which didn’t bother me as I wasn’t happy taking on that part of the installation. I spoke to UKPN who said it’s not acceptable anymore as after the meter you’re not allowed to have a PEN conductor I checked the refs and from what I remember it was 444.4.3.1 and stated no PEN conductor allowed downstream of a TNCS supply
You are correct, though - it was often the DNO that did the conversion on these. Sparks aren't allowed to but I have witnessed certain blocks be converted like this when it's deemed required by them. Though if I remember rightly the converted PEN should be protected by an upstream RCD, though that was a few years ago (16th Ed). Now I would expect them to state a new CPC needs to be run to each flat from the supply origin.
@@effervescence5664 I agree you’re probably right they may have been done by DNOs but that’s an exposed live conductor having that neutral connection with a Tenby and I still wouldn’t hesitate to turn a job down with this system as the mains characteristics
@@HAelec1 Yes it should be double insulated or in an enclosure. We've worked on them before and always list it as C3 with a strongly worded update needed notice. Most housing associations and councils don't bother though unless the results of an EICR warrant it. This I would currently class as C1 though due to exposed neutral conductor as I've not come across one that's in this, what I would deem dangerous condition. So yes I would take it on but it definitely needs rectification works carried out.
@@effervescence5664 as I first read that I thought you was saying that’s a C3 then as I read on I realised you’d also classify this as a C1 hopefully big Tom gets some sort of plastic enclose on it and verify with the DNO they’re happy with this installation is safe for continued use with its upstream PEN conductor and I didn’t notice any rcd protection in the intake room
@@HAelec1 Sorry, badly written. To clarify I meant a C3 for being TNC-S as I don't know how they've kept the neutral separate from the earthed trunking at the main intake - ones we've worked on they're glanded through paxalin, solded onto the sheath for the neutral and then wrapped in something like denzo tape. The bare neutral inside the flat below the board C1 in that state every time, and if the trunking is the neutral C1 though argument could be made if the entire installation is TNC-S anyway potential voltage between parts is 0. Without testing that installation it's difficult to judge from just the video on that one. & yes I couldn't see and RCD protection in the main intake from any of the shots in the video or fused protection of any kind outside the main incomer head. It's definately one I'd be asking the DNO about because if it has been converted they should have a record of it. Though one of the reasons I stopped doing so many jobs in London is because I would see installs similar to this or blatantly worse and the DNO would be like "that's fine for continued use".
Would say tho - plenty of usb sockets that fit 25mm boxes fine! It was more of the initial usb sockets that had the depth problem But - the deeper the back box - the easier it is I guess
The link on the earth to neutral incoming may not actually be connected as they’re removable. Do occasionally see some what similar setups in metering. Sometimes it could be as simple as original tns been left on but upgraded to pme
In my opinion the incomer is TNCS. You have a connection to the outer armour that is connected to the neutral of the 3-phase supply. That is TNC-S. As long as the Ze is
1:00 ever thought of a lifepo4 battery on them especially if you garage them in the UK? (LiFePo4 shouldn't be charged below zero C). I'm running a ebay'd A123 Systems 40Ah LiFePo4 on a 1.6 :P works fine bar winter when I run a lead acid :P
The BS3871 and BSEN 60898 markings are quite common on MCB's manufactured around the time of the change. You may also come across some labelled as part of both standards, eg B type 3871 instead of type 2.
Often seen an original TNS changed to TNCS, what was the main earthing conductor from sheath becomes a main equipotential bonding conductor . As for plug top we cut big hole and fit desk grommets that close off hole up to flex
That is why I disable the start/stop on my cars. Its horrible here in Texas, where its 100F outside and the AC stops of course when the engine isn't running sitting at the lights.
There should be 2 battery, one smaller for the stop/start and the larger for running the van; are you saying they are using only one battery for the stop start function ? in which case that will kill the larger battery rather quickly (like you are finding out) you might be able to get the dealer to disable the stop/start feature (otherwise you will keep having to turn it off each time the van is started)
Hey Tom just some info on that tnc mind twister and iv seen it myself in my own flat and I asked the landlord about it and its how some electricians do it I'm not 100% sure why they do it but I think it's so they they can run extra systems on the same line but apart from that I dont get it myself just but of info for you.
I would love to see an explanation to the difference in these systems. I think it would be useful if a video were done explaining the differences in the system. Plus being from Canada, I have no clue as to what these systems are but interested in learning anyways.
It looks PME with the earth block going into the neutral cutout as you record intake not the distribution circuit. But I'd test it to check as the outer sheath is connected to make sure pme is there and the value it should be. Not seen the single core MI before but have seen 2 core for distribution and the outer was the earth. Shouldn't be combined. Saw the 6 sockets are you sure they didn't want 3 doubles 😁 had it before someone asked for 6 sockets and I had to ask do you mean 6 sockets or 3 double sockets to be clear.
I had 6 twin sockets together near the TV. Once you have AV amp, Blu Ray, Home theatre PC, TV, router, set top box and in my case because I have a huge physical music collection, CD Player, turntable and cassette player (yes I still play tapes and vinyl - I'm old!). I also have my phone and an extension running for a laptop power supply. That's 11 sockets used. I have 1 socket spare. I didn't have all 6 at one level, but 2 banks of 3.
I was ment to do a course last November I was finally able to do it in June and am having trouble getting the last couple of courses booked they need to be done in a classroom not at home or online they're fully booked I need to get the business up and running by next march I'm running out of ideas the courses must be done or I won't get the paperwork I need for the business 😒😒
Glad it's not just my Renault with crap batteries! One year old Clio here with a finished battery and 5k miles on the clock.. and and it needs a TCU as well now apparently. Hooray for Renault
Disconnecting the earth on a circuit will allow the earth conductor to float and a voltage to be induced onto it, either through coupling in the cables or via noise filters in appliances.
Went to a property once, complaint of getting a tingle off things. There was 86V between the computer and adjacent radiator. Intake in utility room, submain from 30A 3036 in there via lead sheath "T&E" of approx 2.5mmsq to a Wylex 3036 board under the stairs. All circuits earthed at the board, except for the incoming submain. With all the other non-compliances and WTFs, it got a nice rewire.
I have had my VW from new and have always had the stop/start switched off. I’m now at 6 years old and 163k on the original battery. As I keep them until about 200k, there was no way I was subjecting the battery and starter to undue stress to save a possible couple of mpg.
I really hope I find a boss like you when I finish my electricians course because having a boss that has a laugh with you is something you don't see much of anymore, working a 9-5 with the boss breathing down your neck to do better, work faster, work harder and still get paid the same just seems a crime to me. If I had a boss like you in my previous job, I'd probably still be there now instead of changing careers.
The same reason I left the industry as well, absolute w***ers as bosses. Work u to the bone, constantly on your back to bash out as many houses as possible, then adding insult to injury not paying u properly. I didn't think bosses like Nagy exsisted, if I lived in London I'd gladly apply to work in his company. Class boss 👌
Finding the content much more interesting since you have expanded the business.
He's asserting his dominance in the market
I am just worried tom is gonna burn out by the time he's 40... it's easy to do :(
@D HJ fairly sure he’s 35
Loving the length of these videos! It’s awesome
Cheers pal, appreciate it :)
38:00 the Apollo call point that's in fire and still has the "remove after commissioning" label on it 😂. never mind I do love these vids, keep up the good work Tom
40 min vid? Fu*kin yes please. Can't complain with this on a monday eve.
With the loose earth scenario at 19:00 you've effectively got a potential divider. Several metres of T+E with high (but not infinite) insulation resistance and an earth wire slap bang in between the two potentials. Any sort of load would haul it one way or the other, but a high impedance meter shows the stray voltage that's present.
3-pin equipment with input filter capacitors would make more current available on the earth wire, you might get a tickle off it then. We had that at work where one of the sockets feeding a bunch of PCs had no earth. I discovered that when I got a buzz from one of the PCs whilst also touching a metal desk frame.
For plugs in cabinets we cut a 60mm hole in the cabinet and put in a desk grommet and a double socket next to it and it looks very neat and you can fit a plug through without cutting off the plug
‘Mettaboo’ best part part of a video yet. Keep the great content coming Tom 😁😁
Loving how frequent the vids are now and the length of them. Keep up the good work mate. Also can wait for the highway works to start 👍🏼
Tom. 'DONT GET ME STARTED ON IT'
Battery. 'I WONT'🤣
Genius
Tom, you can shut down the Start-Stop system on Renault cars/vans, both manually using a button on the dash (RTFM). Or permanently by modifying the ECU configuration (at the dealership or at a repair shop). I've had this issue as well, needed to swap my battery as well. BOSCH batteries seem to last much longer if you continue using Start-Stop tho.
The hole into the next cabinet works best just use a white plastic cover cap like you get going through desks for the computer cables makes a very neat job
I think it is a TN-C-S, with a bond to the extraneous earth of the original TN-S.
Regarding your dead battery: the energy for the start-stop does not come directly from the battery, there are big capacitors under the left fender, who then dump the energy in the alternator (which is actually called a startergenerator) to turn over the engine. When the engine is running, the capacitors are directly charged by the alternator, so there is none to very little direct battery drain.
I think your problems might have something to do with the accessories in your van, especially the hot water heater - you once said it draws about 20 amps. If this isn't correctly wired it could bypass the vehicle energy management system and therefore it doesn't register the additional power usage. Because the alternator does only charge the amount of energy which has been taken out (and has been measured), it simply could be that the battery isn’t held at a sufficient level and slowly dies.
You would think with all the brains in these modern vehicles that the computer would throw a code for unmetered loads draining the battery.
@@jeffclark5206 How dare you sir! Stop using common sense at once, if not sooner! 😁
Im not sure about this as in the coachbuilders manual for this van is an unfused 30 amp plug direct from the battery under the drivers seat.
Not on the Renault's, it does rely on the main battery (cos it's cheap). Trust me I have a one year old Clio with the same problems!
Not sure about over there, but in America you can turn off the start stop manually each time you start the vehicle, or buy a module that does it automatically for you.
For white goods in a kitchen. I used to install an unstitched single socket behind (say a washing machine) controlled by a Fused Connection Unit above the bench. That was applianced can be isolated at any time. Love the new video style, great mix of content too. Thanks for sharing.
Still not ideal if the plug top fuse goes.
Also too many fcu above the worktop looks horrendous
meh - tah - bow (as in arrow) 🙂
for the washing machine plug things. . . that bloke from Wills Electrical uses the desk grommet type things from amazon, and they work really well.
I've used a dual fastfix boxes for them. one side has the single socket to plug into to, and the other side has the back drilled out with a holesaw. Pass the plugtop through, then place a single blank plate on that side.
I'll send a tweet with a pic 🙂
About the socket for the washing machine dishwasher, I just cut a 80mm at the bottom of the unit and install desk grommet. The socket is installed and it's all accessible and easy enough to unplug and remove the appliance.
That's neat with desk grommet 😀👍
I'm an electronics man, me. Dunno why I would be watching this sort of content but it's genuinely interesting and entertaining. It's also great to see a bloke build a business and work as hard as Tom. Great channel, this.
Cheers pal !
19:45 Fun fact, You get capacitive/inductive coupling. Same thing happens on heating elements, especialy water heating elements, showers can have upto 18ma earth leakage due to capacitance.
Use a desk grommet when you cut the hole and bring it into the cupboard looks loads better as it reduces the hole and can remove etc if needed
Knew as soon as I commented some one would've beaten me too it
@@nathansurrell9436 Haha! I’m sure someone had already beaten me to it but I find it’s a food way to neaten it all up.
That's a really good idea, thanks.
19:45 The L- Pe and N-Pe voltage is usually half the L-N voltage because the capacitors in the filters in power supplys divide the voltage between L and N.
The filters look like this:
L-capacitor-Pe-capacitor-N
120V 120V
with regards to the washing machine dishwasher 20amp double pole switch on the ring going down to a single gang unswitched socket that way you can isolate if required and not invalidate the manufacturers warranty and the appliance is fused
Nice one Tom your post are like a breath of fresh air compared to some of the others that basically just rehash the same jobs on every post. Its either a EICR a consumer unit change a car charger install or some DIY numptie showing people who have absolutely no idea how dangerous electricity can be fitting a outside socket. Their is a old saying you need to remember when your getting grief at the office You might not be right all of the time But your always the boss dont let her bully you you need to put her in her place ( But dont tell her I said that) lol.
Ha Ha! Loved your what-the-helling off Sarah. Really liking the new format and the variety of jobs you show.
LOVING these vidoes!! keep them coming, cant wait for the merch too!!
Cheers, appreciate it pal!
12:14 Can just imagine Tom searching “What is a stick with a moustache on the end used for?”
Brilliant video as usual. Thanks for posting 👏
Appreciate it pal
Totally with you on the van batteries. The stop start batteries are much more expensive too. And the alternators fail more often due to the heavier demand and they are 3 times the price. Stop/start barely saves any fuel anyway, it just lowers emissions in cities slightly.
25:10 Structural Engineer was the very thought that came to mind!
Please please make a video elaborating and explaining more the reasons why you get a voltage when you have no cpc. A voltage where and for what reason?
Thanks.
Hilti Wall Chaser and dust extractor in my opinion. Bought mine in 2007 direct from Hilti, it's been serviced once at a cost of £400, here we are in 2021, several hundred rewires later and its still as good as new. Also Hilti customer service is great the item is with them for no more than 4 days for the service.
Smashing it tom!!! Amazon will be knocking on your door soon. Looking forward to the highway stuff in the near future keep up the good work
Cheers partner, really appreciate it :)
on the plug i usually put it over the top of the unit where the cut out for the sink is it just fits
I did a major shopping centre fire alarm panel that got flooded. We were instructed just to strip and dry every part to get the Centre open as it was a huge custom built and some components there were not enough spares in UK. Worked fine for months but over next few years it got more and more troublesome and of course costs were now in maintenance contract not to insurer. Always regretted it .
Great viewing as usual Tom.
Cheers
Loving the content! Can we have more office outbursts from Sarah though, love her accent.
Stop start, the Battery Management System has a depleting counter so the battery only has a finite number of starts usually. Is there no way of turning of stop/start via an OBDII scanner. Also, sometimes you can use a sequence of button presses to reset the BMS when you fit a new battery.
Totally unnecessary "feature" to have to reset the ECU on a battery change.
I wonder if you can fool it by connecting the two batteries in parallel while changing them over.
Either way, the correct answer is to just not buy one. Support manufacturers that aren't there purely to force you to go to the dealership and harvest as much data about you as possible with their "connected cars".
Devices are available that are basically a timer - about a minute after switching the ignition on they will pulse a relay or optocoupler once - the "contact" of which is connected across the auto stop start button to simulate a press of the button so you don't have to do that every journey.
@@jimmyb1451 No, the charging voltage and current profile is changed over the life of the battery.
Fitting a new one with or without disconnection will result in overcharging of a new battery and cause it to fail sooner than expected.
Having a leisure/auxiliary battery connected with an old school big clunking relay/contactor split charge is a sure fire way to end up with both batteries failing sooner than expected.
They need to be charged using a specific DC-DC converter, sometimes known as a battery-to-battery charger.
Modern vehicles disable charging under hard acceleration to give you more hp at the wheels, and increase the charge rate during deceleration (sort of regenerative braking) but all that is very hard on the battery.
I say modern, but some Ford vehicles have had smart charging for 20 years.
@@simonparkinson1053 Yeah, that's not how battery charging works at all.
It's also not the reason the ECU needs to be reset. I haven't seen the systems, but I have heard of newer cars connecting through a shunt resistor to monitor current in and out of the batter (meaning a careless connection of a battery charger can put the vehicle into limp mode because the measured SOC doesn't match the computer's idea of where the battery should be in it's charge cycle, which is utterly ridiculous.)
At any rate, if indeed a split battery system can in any way end in both batteries failing due to overcharge, that's far from what I would consider "smart charging".
Either way, none of this is necessary, let alone required.
He could just not relearn the new battery to the ecu and start/stop would be disabled permanently
Pleasure to watch your videos..
Im glad videos are released fairly often and lot longer ..
As you said crisps / beer .. anything.. sit down and watch
Dishwashers usually have a recessed area at the bottom for plugs and water connections, so I just did a recessed socket really low down for it, like an inch of the floor. This is however outside the UK, so I’m not sure what your regs say about that, but it has to be better than a floating socket. If the back wall allows, you could even recess a box so far back that the plug is recessed with it, a bit of plaster board or some premade metal box and you’d have a really neat setup.
Another excellent video good work Tom and the team 👍
Hey Tom, Lookup fibreglass scratch pen. this will allow you to rough up contact patches to make better connections.
You are spoiling us with all this content!
Loving the longer videos
Stop start vehicles are not about being environmentally friendly, it’s about the manufacturer being able to claim lower fuel consumption figures. Particularly when city driving.
Tom for the socket in the kitchen cupboard use a desk grommet it gives you the best finish 👍
Better entertainment than regular TV any day 👍😀
I’m glad to hear it pal !
I always switch off the stop/start on my Vivaro as I'm scared it will stop at the lights & won't start again.
Smashing video can’t wait for Fridays
Cheers pal! Appreciate it :)
You'll find alot of breakers for commercial/Industrial are dual standard to 60898/60947-2.
For the kitchens I tend to fit the little grommets you normally see in desks into the hold the plug has come through to neaten it all up.
I love these practical videos. Keep up the good work!
Thank you, really appreciate it :)
That metabo wall chaser is the dogs bollocks bud, I've got a cheap Screwfix special because I'm a cheapskate but a mate of mine has the metabo and extractor and she is an absolute monster doing a rewire worth every penny
@PETER WILSON 😅 😅
Hi Tom, great vid. 👍Something I see a lot is where a 1ph or 3ph supply started it’s life as a TN-S supply. Then at some point, a section of cable in the road gets repaired/replaced with concentric & the odd rod..thereby making it a TN-C-S. If they also happen to upgrade the incoming Head at some point, then they’ll always call it a PME, (whatever the supply cable is doing,) make use of the PME MET, but leave the TN-S connection ( conductor or band) in place. It’s a pain if you’re trying to get a true Ze on a 1ph as you can’t always disconnect that parallel earth! So, if in any doubt, put TN-C-S. The flat end is a different kettle of fish 😂
Get a Ctek charger for the vans, CT5 or MSX 7.0 - I've got a 2.5l diesel and short journeys kill the battery. Once a week slap this on overnight and no issues.
+1 for CTEK chargers. You can get 12V cigarette lighter adapters for them so you can plug into the 12V socket instead of having to pop the bonnet. Convenient for trickle charging especially if all your vans are going to be in the unit overnight.
I use a desk grommet when drilling a hole to take the plug into the next unit
That flat installation is TN-C in the mineral insulated section, then TN-C-S from the connection blocks. Apart from the meters and supplier fuse being in the middle of the TN-C part, it’s exactly what the DNOs do to install a TN-C-S supply but they just cover the joint in insulation. Wouldn’t want to say if the regulations permit it though…
In this instance its making the body of the metal trunking the neutral and earth path?
Does make you ponder on why tails have to be 25mm coming off 6-10mm incomers. Love to know what regs DNO get to use and get away with.
Saything that then why can't the tails be the same at ether 25 or 6mm but I'm not 100 percent sure on the regs but yeah.
@@UberAlphaSirus that is a question I have asked on a couple of video’s. I am just a DIY’er and would never touch fuse box wiring but I have often thought 6 to 25mm is the wrong way around. We have 6mm coming into the house and asked the sparks why the tails were so big? ‘Regs’ I was told
@@dougsaunders8109 My guess is, that is for the day they'll update their lines, and the customers installation is already prepared for that...
Keep up the good videos I enjoyed watching them
Love the longer vids and more diverse content Tom, can't wait to see all the Highways work on here too 👏👏
I recon they ran all that MI cable in, then went to terminate it and found out it was single-core and went "Shit, wtf am I going to do now... Ah I know" 😂
stop/start is to get the "grams per kilometre" CO2 rating of the vehicle down to lower the rate of tax (ironically because it's "better for the environment", *apparently* ) - if you turn it off though you can still pay the same rate of tax, they just assume most people will leave it on so they go by that.
You have definitely upped the game on your channel content of late. 👍 Had a laugh at the "googling what a floor brush is" comment.
In Scotland, the council own the common municipal fixtures and fittings, even in Private flat blocks, and repair communal lights, intercoms, etc.
Interesting, do you find things are better when things like that are owned by the council or privately?
Need a a picture of that TNCS TNS TT Combo in the flat
Great video Tom, looking forward to the Highways content when you get the course done 😎
I love this channel
Tom, that lovely twisty springy lead you plug into your tester?
It's a big fat inductor that can wildly change its turn density, length, shape, so no wonder it gives you variable readings!
Stick with your triple straight leads for the win, as you have been doing :-D
You could always get a someone to remove the start stop from the ecu it can be done for other cars
or just turn it off...
A crate of Bosch stuff ! Living the dream mate
in aus we just put a single outlet in the space next to the dishwasher/washing machine and drill a hole through and plug it in.
Single core MI is so they can up the amp draw without shorting the cable and without taking up more space. It would have been TN-S as the conduit/ water would have been used for the main CPC. What has probably happen is the original has probably been linked due to issues with the sheath (broken cpc outside the block) so it would be classed as TNC-S at the supply origin as it's linked to stop induced voltage after a break found on the building supply cpc. So now they've converted the entire block into TNC-S, this sadly is quite common for cash strapped blocks of that age that suffer with broken supply cpc. It's not taught in colleges and like yourself many engineers look at it and are mind boggled.
The BS 3871 / BS EN 60898 should be put in the report as a 60898, this is the number used after the merger with the EU back in 2004 - it's down to harmonization but essentially it's the same thing.
Broken CPC is down to capacitance, I believe JW/ GSH and others have videos on it.
The start of this video is exactly why we bypass the stop start on all our vans from the day we get them. Ever since stop start almost got one of the engineers killed on a roundabout the company is against it completely.
So the earth at the cu would have originally been fed by a water pipe? Making the whole system tns, but at some point the earth at the cu was swapped over the the micc neutral. It really confused me when he started saying it was tt as the earth was clearly coming from the neutral.
Then at the main intake the earth cable coming from the armour of the supply cable is essentially earthing the cable from the installation tncs earth taken from the supply neutral.
Would there have been a separate neutral conductor in the trunking feeding the micc cladding? Otherwise the trunking becomes a live conducter.
@@felixmoran1 Yes I don't know why he said TT or why they didn't correct themselves on the edit but it's TNC-S conversion not TT.
You're correct on the main intake, the armour ring at some point back to the local transformer has been damaged and rather than dig up the road it has been converted to TNC-S. It was probably damaged long ago but no one would have noticed as the main water incomer at the main intake is bonded to it, but as is the water boards remit all old metallic pipework changes to plastic and then you lose your earthing conductor completely.
Yes from when we have worked on them the MICC has been glanded at both ends and kept separate from things like metal trunking and wrapped in something a kin to denzo tape. Having note seen inside that trunking though I couldn't say for sure, though the badly done connection in the flat gives me a horrid feeling that which ever engineer did the conversion was not informed how to go about doing it safely.
Though if everything in the building is connected to that trunking be it CPC or neutral the theory states the potential voltage difference is 0 volts and no shock risk. Not being there to test it I wouldn't like to say it's 100% safe in the current format though.
@@effervescence5664 thanks for the reply, why would the earth at the cu need to be swapped over for the conversion though? If it was a water pipe or conduit taking the earth to the flat originally, it wouldn't matter that the intake supply changed surely?
@@felixmoran1 I see some unused conduit below the CU in the flat, but normally the earthing arrangement up to the CU wouldn't have changed unless it had to. So you're right in that regard, supply characteristics changing at the intake shouldn't have effected the earthing arrangement to the flat. So possibly the earthing arrangement was an issue (missing after conduit disconnected or water pipe removal) hence they changed it to TNCS at the CU, or I am starting to think more is more likely they realised they had made the trunking live and have converted it all to reduce the potential to 0 volts.
Kudos for a youtube reply comment that is extremely long, and has not ONE point i can disagree with... have a beer!
Get some of them desk things you find in offices. I just stick that in the floor of the kitchen cupboard to bring the plug through. Hides the hole nicely!
I went too a job in Bermondsey that had this same system and I refused to take it on with installing a nee submain and lost the job on the strength of it which didn’t bother me as I wasn’t happy taking on that part of the installation. I spoke to UKPN who said it’s not acceptable anymore as after the meter you’re not allowed to have a PEN conductor I checked the refs and from what I remember it was 444.4.3.1 and stated no PEN conductor allowed downstream of a TNCS supply
You are correct, though - it was often the DNO that did the conversion on these. Sparks aren't allowed to but I have witnessed certain blocks be converted like this when it's deemed required by them. Though if I remember rightly the converted PEN should be protected by an upstream RCD, though that was a few years ago (16th Ed). Now I would expect them to state a new CPC needs to be run to each flat from the supply origin.
@@effervescence5664 I agree you’re probably right they may have been done by DNOs but that’s an exposed live conductor having that neutral connection with a Tenby and I still wouldn’t hesitate to turn a job down with this system as the mains characteristics
@@HAelec1 Yes it should be double insulated or in an enclosure. We've worked on them before and always list it as C3 with a strongly worded update needed notice. Most housing associations and councils don't bother though unless the results of an EICR warrant it. This I would currently class as C1 though due to exposed neutral conductor as I've not come across one that's in this, what I would deem dangerous condition. So yes I would take it on but it definitely needs rectification works carried out.
@@effervescence5664 as I first read that I thought you was saying that’s a C3 then as I read on I realised you’d also classify this as a C1 hopefully big Tom gets some sort of plastic enclose on it and verify with the DNO they’re happy with this installation is safe for continued use with its upstream PEN conductor and I didn’t notice any rcd protection in the intake room
@@HAelec1 Sorry, badly written. To clarify I meant a C3 for being TNC-S as I don't know how they've kept the neutral separate from the earthed trunking at the main intake - ones we've worked on they're glanded through paxalin, solded onto the sheath for the neutral and then wrapped in something like denzo tape. The bare neutral inside the flat below the board C1 in that state every time, and if the trunking is the neutral C1 though argument could be made if the entire installation is TNC-S anyway potential voltage between parts is 0. Without testing that installation it's difficult to judge from just the video on that one.
& yes I couldn't see and RCD protection in the main intake from any of the shots in the video or fused protection of any kind outside the main incomer head. It's definately one I'd be asking the DNO about because if it has been converted they should have a record of it. Though one of the reasons I stopped doing so many jobs in London is because I would see installs similar to this or blatantly worse and the DNO would be like "that's fine for continued use".
Would say tho - plenty of usb sockets that fit 25mm boxes fine!
It was more of the initial usb sockets that had the depth problem
But - the deeper the back box - the easier it is I guess
Another great video has always Thomas and team 👍
I can't believe how thick that Renault Trafic steering wheel is must 2 inches or more
I put round office tidys in cupboards for sockets in units
TNCS with back up earth by sheathing. From the guy who came to your unit a few weeks ago!
Can’t get over the way he says Metabo 😆
Nice mug Tom!
I've a hilti chaser, 36 te 6a, 18volt pozy drive etc.... Love hilti they're some of the best tools I've ever used
The link on the earth to neutral incoming may not actually be connected as they’re removable. Do occasionally see some what similar setups in metering. Sometimes it could be as simple as original tns been left on but upgraded to pme
We're on a roll now Tom 👍
Yes baby ;)
Your new logo looks like one of those south american TV stations out of The Fast Show - "Chanel 9 Neus. Buono estente."
Scorcho!
In my opinion the incomer is TNCS.
You have a connection to the outer armour that is connected to the neutral of the 3-phase supply.
That is TNC-S.
As long as the Ze is
Make sure you note somewhere on the cert that its both!
1:00 ever thought of a lifepo4 battery on them especially if you garage them in the UK? (LiFePo4 shouldn't be charged below zero C). I'm running a ebay'd A123 Systems 40Ah LiFePo4 on a 1.6 :P works fine bar winter when I run a lead acid :P
Also the LiFePo4 won't go bad even if it goes flat a 1000 times - since it will have a BMS that cuts it off when it runs too low.
The BS3871 and BSEN 60898 markings are quite common on MCB's manufactured around the time of the change. You may also come across some labelled as part of both standards, eg B type 3871 instead of type 2.
Go Tom 👍👍
Often seen an original TNS changed to TNCS, what was the main earthing conductor from sheath becomes a main equipotential bonding conductor .
As for plug top we cut big hole and fit desk grommets that close off hole up to flex
good call on the old sheath being an extraneous conductive part now... very good way of explaining it
Dry lining adhesive is good for sticking back box's in, sets rock hard and will never move.
great vid thomas
That is why I disable the start/stop on my cars. Its horrible here in Texas, where its 100F outside and the AC stops of course when the engine isn't running sitting at the lights.
There should be 2 battery, one smaller for the stop/start and the larger for running the van; are you saying they are using only one battery for the stop start function ? in which case that will kill the larger battery rather quickly (like you are finding out) you might be able to get the dealer to disable the stop/start feature (otherwise you will keep having to turn it off each time the van is started)
Supercapacitors might work better for start and stop
Hey Tom just some info on that tnc mind twister and iv seen it myself in my own flat and I asked the landlord about it and its how some electricians do it I'm not 100% sure why they do it but I think it's so they they can run extra systems on the same line but apart from that I dont get it myself just but of info for you.
I would love to see an explanation to the difference in these systems. I think it would be useful if a video were done explaining the differences in the system. Plus being from Canada, I have no clue as to what these systems are but interested in learning anyways.
Likewise, we primarily have MEN system in use here in NZ.
Really good explanation of earthing systems: ua-cam.com/video/AWxeb2MI37c/v-deo.html
@@199quinny thank you
It looks PME with the earth block going into the neutral cutout as you record intake not the distribution circuit. But I'd test it to check as the outer sheath is connected to make sure pme is there and the value it should be.
Not seen the single core MI before but have seen 2 core for distribution and the outer was the earth. Shouldn't be combined.
Saw the 6 sockets are you sure they didn't want 3 doubles 😁 had it before someone asked for 6 sockets and I had to ask do you mean 6 sockets or 3 double sockets to be clear.
I had 6 twin sockets together near the TV. Once you have AV amp, Blu Ray, Home theatre PC, TV, router, set top box and in my case because I have a huge physical music collection, CD Player, turntable and cassette player (yes I still play tapes and vinyl - I'm old!). I also have my phone and an extension running for a laptop power supply. That's 11 sockets used. I have 1 socket spare. I didn't have all 6 at one level, but 2 banks of 3.
@@cjmillsnun there are those very rare occasions yes. 😁 can never have enough of them
I have 4 doubles at my TV and still need two four way extensions
I was ment to do a course last November I was finally able to do it in June and am having trouble getting the last couple of courses booked they need to be done in a classroom not at home or online they're fully booked I need to get the business up and running by next march I'm running out of ideas the courses must be done or I won't get the paperwork I need for the business 😒😒
The earth lug on the side of the cutout often has a link inside so that it can be TNCS or TNS. That cutout will be TNS.
Things that are labeled environmentally friendly are often only friendly to the wallet of the seller.
Glad it's not just my Renault with crap batteries! One year old Clio here with a finished battery and 5k miles on the clock.. and and it needs a TCU as well now apparently. Hooray for Renault
Disconnecting the earth on a circuit will allow the earth conductor to float and a voltage to be induced onto it, either through coupling in the cables or via noise filters in appliances.
Went to a property once, complaint of getting a tingle off things.
There was 86V between the computer and adjacent radiator.
Intake in utility room, submain from 30A 3036 in there via lead sheath "T&E" of approx 2.5mmsq to a Wylex 3036 board under the stairs.
All circuits earthed at the board, except for the incoming submain.
With all the other non-compliances and WTFs, it got a nice rewire.
I have had my VW from new and have always had the stop/start switched off. I’m now at 6 years old and 163k on the original battery. As I keep them until about 200k, there was no way I was subjecting the battery and starter to undue stress to save a possible couple of mpg.
Scotchbrite, Tom. Keep some of that for cleaning up contacts etc. I think the maroon stuff is the fine one.
I really hope I find a boss like you when I finish my electricians course because having a boss that has a laugh with you is something you don't see much of anymore, working a 9-5 with the boss breathing down your neck to do better, work faster, work harder and still get paid the same just seems a crime to me. If I had a boss like you in my previous job, I'd probably still be there now instead of changing careers.
The same reason I left the industry as well, absolute w***ers as bosses. Work u to the bone, constantly on your back to bash out as many houses as possible, then adding insult to injury not paying u properly. I didn't think bosses like Nagy exsisted, if I lived in London I'd gladly apply to work in his company. Class boss 👌