Brazil's X ban becomes a rallying cry for Bolsonaro | Ian Bremmer | Quick Take
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
- The Twitter/X ban in Brazil has presented an opportunity for the conservatives, including former President Bolsonaro, to use this and the opposition to freedom of speech as a rallying call. And that was what we saw in these demonstrations over the weekend. About 50,000 total on Brazil's Independence Day in Sao Paulo attending the rally. It was significant because it shows that the defense of liberty and democracy is a rallying cry of the opposition in the next presidential election that's coming up in 2026, which is not so far away.
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@Ian_Bremmer's Quick Take:
A Quick Take to kick off your week. Haven't spoken in a while about Brazil, and thought I might given the demonstrations going on over the weekend and the big fight that is going on around democracy, around free speech, around the social media site that is known as Twitter / X. The issue here is that as in the United States, politics in Brazil exceptionally polarized and divided lots of issues questioning the future of the country's democracy, whether or not you can have a free and fair transition. January 8th in Brazil has the resonance for part of its population the way that January 6th does in the United States, participants seen as patriots by the other part of the population. You see where we're going here. One big difference between Brazil and the United States is in the United States, the Supreme Court, while it has at times a liberal and presently a conservative bent, is still an independent organization that is very separate from the executive.
In Brazil, it is much more politicized and corrupt. And specifically the effort to take down Twitter / X, in Brazil as well as freeze the accounts of Starlink for example, also owned by Elon Musk, has been overreach, politicized overreach by one specific Supreme Court member, Alexandre de Moraes, and has been approved by the Supreme Court as a whole. Now the issue here is a number of accounts that were disseminating disinformation, fake news, and claimed by the government needed to be taken down by Twitter / X. Twitter / X has refused to do so. And that angered those on the left in Brazil especially because when other demands are made to remove individual accounts in other countries, like in Turkey or the UAE, which are made with similarly I would say tenuous justification but if that's what the political leaders are saying in that country, that amounts to an order by a relevant authority.
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#QuickTake #Brazil #ElonMusk
I generally like the analisys of the channel but as a brazilian i have to disagree, its a mistake to say that brazilian supreme court is not independent, they indeed have a lot of problems and there are many examples where they overreach their functions, but generally for both sides, this same court with most of the judges that are there today kept lula in prison for more than a year, the law clearly states that someone should only go to jail after it looses every appeal, but the supreme court decided otherwise, the same minister moraes voted in favour of this understanding! I also think is a mistake to say that the bolsonaro's electors are defending democratic values because they oppenly defended a coup of state using defence of democracy as an argument to overthrow a democratic election, there problems with the supreme court is that that want to control it like the venezuelan regime controls its own supreme court, and during this rallies againdt moraes bolsonaro and his supporters are also asking for amnesty for there crimes against brazilian democracy! That doesnt mean that minister moraes is correct in his decision, althought there are lots of decision that are indeed correct, according to brazilian law, and specially what wr calll means off communication, which are included television newspapers and accounts on social network, u cannot promote crime and violence, and u cannot accuse someone of a crime without evidence, and lots of the posts that were taken down indeed do that, the problem is, this laws were made before social network, which doesnt give a clear path on how this law should be applied on this case, there is also the fact that
Most of this decision are made inder a classified investigation, what makes it very hard to see if there is abbuse of power by moraes,which is a crime in brazil and moraes can be punished in the future for that, because he claims that the reasons are classified because of current investigations, there are indeed some posts that doesnt seem to go against those laws there were taked down by moraes, the ban on x was also correct because moraes is a competent authority and x was not applying court orders, so if u dont comply with court orders u are commiting a crime yourself and your company will not be allowed to continue opperating, complying to a court orther doesnt mean u agree with it, and there are other institucional ways to fight it, brazilian institution are very far from perfect but they are very far from institution of places like, turkey, venezuela, nicaragua and el salvador where they are controlled by the government, and also, althought i dont like moraes and the brazilian supreme court, they were the ones that imposed limits on the authoritarian attacks of bolsonaro and kept brazilian democracy, althought a very disfunctional one, alive!
The supreme court is corrupt in Brazil? How did u reach that opinion?
@@felipehc1 Felipe, I follow him for years. The thing with Ian Bremmer is to buy him for what he is worth, and sell him for what he thinks he is worth. I made a lot of money trading on his ignorance. Because some people do take him seriously.
I am a Brazilian and I can asure you that our Supreme Court is independent. I saw few people complain about the blocakage of X. Brazil has survived several political situation and the Justice system has maintain order and the right to vote and free speech for those who uses free speech with reasonable responsability.
No. You cannot asure nobody that. There are millions of people here that do not agree with you. What you can say is that you think, but not asure nobody sh*t.
I usually enjoy Ian's videos but, as a Brazilian, I must follow on the steps of many of my fellow countrymen here and disagree with the analysis.
.
(a) Stating that the Supreme Court is corrupt is an extraordinary claim, for which extraordinary evidence should be presented.
(b) The Supreme Court's function is to safeguard the Constitution in view of actions taken by members of the Civil Society, by the Executive and by Legislators. The Constitution of Brazil differs from that of the US and of other countries, and this bit seems to be missed by much of the foreign commentary on the matter. Mr. Musk is unable, better yet, unwilling, to comply with very simple laws of the country that were put into place as a way to enforce accountability (so, it's not about people on one side of the political fence being "angered"). He's suffering the consequences of what looks like a 'pioneer-in-the-wild-west' syndrome.
(c) The Supreme Court IS independent in Brazil. As an example, Court judges once indicated by Lula or Dilma, like Toffolli, have consistently voted, besides taking actions, in direct confrontation to the wishes of the "liberal side"; likewise, judges indicated by Bolsonaro have not behaved (so far) like simple-minded drones controled by the president that has placed them there. There is an institutional spirit to the Court, if you will, quite independent of other powers.
(d) The fake news accounts targeted by the legal actions taken in Brazil are nothing like those of Turkey or India, were it was essentially political dissidents that were targeted. We're talking about people who, for instance, shared "news" about covid vaccines being AIDS vectors, or that Lula and his party are plotting to change children's gender.
(e) Although he's right on the degree of animosity and divide, which is, in fact, strong, Ian is dead wrong when claiming that conservatives care more about democracy than liberals here. The generalization is: People NOT in power at the moment care more about democracy, because they feel that the other side might use the State to curb the other side's power to take part into it. However, Ian's take on this feels even more detached from reality once one realizes that conservatives in Brazil routinely praise the military dictatorship that once ruled the country, which is not what you would expect from a side concerned with "democratic values". If there is one side that is openly and, one might say, proudly anti-democratic in Brazil, it's Bolsonaro's.
Should freedom of speech be used as a way to legalize spreading provable lies, conning people out of money, and to incite violence. Elon Musk seems to thinks so but only when the right wing party he supports is the one doing this.
@@carlgranados7106 whether it should or shouldn’t isn’t the issue. Freedom of speech is absolute. If you break a law then you can be charged for that crime, but speech itself is not a crime. It doesn’t matter if you are on the left or the right, you can say what you want on X as long as you don’t violate the law, and Elon has been clear that any post that violates the law is taken down on X, while any post that does not violate the law should not be taken down
@@nelsoncury-x1w If you yell fire in a crowded theater that's illegal. If you say something slanderous about another you can be sued. If you sell something that you misrepresented you can be sued or go to jail. If you say on TV that blacks are coming to kill you tonight you'll go to jail. The problem is there are laws for what you can do and say on TV, radio, print, and so on but there are no laws yet for what you can say on social media. Finally note the Musk is all for canceling free speech in China and Russia and on X of anyone he doesn't like. In other words he wants to use "free speech" to con and manipulate for his own profit and power.
@@nelsoncury-x1w Very well said! Who is suppose to rule what is a lie and what isn´t? To lie is not a crime here in Brasil! If it was all the politicians would be in jail!
@@alexandrebittencourttande3264 Usually it's not being wrong that gets you in trouble, it's causing damages with speech.
Yes, you have to consider if your actions are causing damages to others in a civil society.
This is what rights violators and suspenders like Trump and Elon are deficient in.
It's why their lives are strings of court cases.
It would probably be better if we didn't have business environments that promoted this behavior.
Having said that. there's also categories of protected speech in a democracy.
For example, discussions around laws being passed, or on the books.
Did you pass a law against a nefarious activity? Then you're going to have to tolerate discussions about it.
Also, if political speech is causing damages to the government, it's on the government to change its ways, not on the people to lie and silence themselves!
Several billions of people in the world do without X. I don't subscribe to it either in the U.S. Not sure why it is an issue in Brazil.
This is such a poor take.
Brazilian here. Very good analysis by a foreign commentator. As for the comparison between the US and Brazil the thing is that here, we never had a right wing so to speak. The "right wing" here is wrongly associated with the military dictatorship that occurred between 1964 and 1985. What many people don´t understand is that this dictatorship economically speaking, had nothing to do with what the right wing represents in the same field in America, which is a more open market oriented approach, a more liberal economic agenda, no interventionism by the State, low taxes and, above all, the freedom of doing business. The dictatorship here had none of these values. They were pro nationalization of companies, against the global open market, interventionists, and made humongous mistakes that set Brazil back years and plunged the country in inflation which is the greatest cause of poverty. So, this dictatorship was in a sense, more left wing that many of us here want to admit..
Bolsonaro, even not completely willingly started a right wing movement like we never had before. With Paulo Guedes the Ministry of Finance motto: more Brazil, less Brasilia. Well... the enormous mass of public servants, being in all 3 branches of the State hated that. Including the supreme court. What they want more than anything is to keep the control of the tax payers money, under their wings. That what this is all about. The discussion about freedom of speech is a consequence of a movement started by the people that is tired of seeing their money gone to corruption, gone to massive wages of public servants, gone to politics that use this money to works that bennefit themselves and their friends. Remember... Bolsonaro was a nobody some years ago. He only came to light after the huge corruption scandal that put Lula behind bars.
Having said that, there is no comparison between what Trump did on January 6th in America and what happened in Brasilia on January 8th. Yes, there are people that comitted acts of vandalism and destroyed public buildings and they were arrested for that. But there were lots of people that were arrested just for being there and had not condone in such actions. More than a 1000 people were arrested this day and by the orders of Alexandre de Moraes and are still in jail today without proper legal procedures. And that is what this is all about. They want to shut up whomever don't agree with them. No matter what. And that is why Brazilian democracy is in danger. Like you prefeclty said: here is the right wing that is fighting for freedom. And the leftists can't stand it.
I second most of the comments here. It sounds like American arrogance to describe the Brazilian Supreme Court as opposed to the American as corrupt and politicized.
Supreme Court is not corrupt here ? Ever hear of Clarence Thomas ?
The difference is that Clarence Thomas is just one member of a court. The analogy for Brazil would be if Clarence Thomas could make decisions by himself that the court did not need to vote on (he had ultimate power), and his decisions would not be made public. He could jail and indite whoever he wanted without providing the crime, and without a trial. That is what is happening in Brazil.
Whataboutism is hereabouts.
In a Ted Talk you made the point that social media is the unknown factor in the development of geo-political power relationships. Is what is happening in Brazil an example of this?
Cut the beard. You are more handsome without it.
He has analyzed the future, and sees total destruction, so there is no need to shave.
Hi, good morning.
Im tired of people all over the place showing uo to talk sh*t. Brazil is a sovereign country and guess what…?? We got laws. If ur platform got more than 10M users, you must have a legal representative, period. Simple as that. Are u suggesting a foreign businessman has, somehow, the right to not comply with our laws?? I wonder how this matter would be handled in USA. Come on darling, u got a UA-cam channel, u should do better than that. Do you research.
Yeah... Let's ask him about TikTok. Americans forget that the world DOES NOT revolve around them and how imperialist they are.
@@3dus We could also mention the “definitely not political” reversal of the abortion rights the US Supreme Court has recently ruled … Just to indicate how much of a difference is there between both Supreme Courts, when it comes down to being not politicized… hahahahahha
As a Brazilian, I disagree with you completely. This issue did not start with X not having a legal representative in Brazil, they had one and had to disband their team because they were threatened with jail time for not following with the censorial requests from the STF which (probably) violate Brazilian law.
Elon has been clear about this, X complies with the laws of the countries in which they are in; Brazil has freedom of speech, yet X has been asked to censor individuals and to be silent about it or risk fines. That is not in accordance with the laws of Brazil, and so X and Elon are challenging this in the courts.
E por que o musk não quer obdecer às ordens? se elas não zsão ilegais. como ele afirma, basta o xandão afastar o sigiloso e publicar a fundamentação. por que ele não faz isso? porque não há amparo na lei para as decisões, simples assim. esses inquéritos nunca vão vir a luz, vão decretar sigilo de 100 anos depois do arquivamento.
@@nelsoncury-x1w Since you have just stabilish that he trusts our contitution, hence “free speech right”, why not fight legal issues ON COURT, like any company would? This is completely BS. He FIRED all of his employees, and BTW he is still owning legal fees from that, just to make a point and behave like the brat he is. Case in point, free of speech is also secured in both indian and turkish constitutions, but he will just bow to them because of alt-right-conservatives government.
Thank you for shining a light on this Ian. As a Brazilian who now lives in the U.S., it is quite alarming to see so many fellow Brazilians who don’t understand that freedom of speech is meant to protect the speech of those who you disagree with most. If the people who you disagree with the most aren’t able to speak freely even about the worst and most disgusting topics without risking going to jail, then a country does not have freedom of speech. Sadly, in Brazil half the country now supports censorship because they believe they are ‘saving democracy’, while at the same time they are destroying the fabric of democracy
He doesn’t know Brazil.
@@nelsoncury-x1w Well… you live in US, good for you (did you escape?) So, you should at least inform yourself, and learn about the cultural differences in the “free speech” construction. US has (a pretty old concept) of almost absolute right for this, while Brazillian consitutuion (1988) has a relative right for it. It’s also a crime in brazil to be racist, to homophobic and so on and on. If what you are saying has the potential to harm people or destroy our capital bulding or democratic insitutions, you just lost your right.
Ian, some biases cloud your analysis. The judiciary in Brazil is independent of politics. However, it is much more ideological than technical.
No it is not. The judiciary is hand in hand with the current government. One judge of the supreme court went on a rally and yelled to anyone who wanted to here: WE DEFEATED THE BOLSONARISM! A judge from the highest court in the land! He said that! Want more proof that that?! I have many more!
@@alexandrebittencourttande3264 The Brazilian supreme court indeed defeated a coup of state by Bolsonaro and his moviments, and saved Brazilian democracy by doing so, so he wasnt wrong when he Said that, and yes, there were an attempt of a coup, the army commander confirmed to the federal police that Bolsonaro proposed a coup of state! The Brazilian supreme court is far from perfect and overreach its Power in lots of cases, but there are examples of the right and left being damaged by this overreach of Power in the supreme court
It is not a matter or right or wrong. It is a matter of imparciality which is what defines a judge. A judge!! It is not his job to go to rallies. His job is to make justice. We don't pay him for that.
When exactly did the Supreme court defeat the coup attempt? When they arrested the people that were in front of the HQs? And when exactly Bolsonaro encouraged the people to take power with their own hands?
As for the Reports that have emerged indicating that Bolsonaro and his allies discussed potential measures to maintain his power after the 2022 elections, including the use of a state of siege. This was revealed through testimonies to the Federal Police, which suggested that plans were in place that could undermine democratic processes. A specific document outlining a proposed state of siege was reportedly discovered during investigations into these alleged coup attempts.Again, alleged! Or do you really think that if they had proof that an actual coup was attempted that they wouldn't have arrested him already? State of siege is not a coup. It is a constitutional measure. A measure that he did not go forward btw. Hence the no arrest.
The characteristics of a coup are:
An overt and illegal attempt to overthrow the incumbent leadership and it is sudden, decisive and utilizes force.
None of this happened.
@@alexandrebittencourttande3264, The problem is deeper. Judges in Brazil, not just in the Supreme Court, decide as they please, disregarding the laws. What Morais is doing today with Bolsonaro is what they have always done with the poor, black, and favela residents. It’s what they did with the PT in Curitiba as well.
By the way, there is a 2019 law that requires every judge to review all preventive detentions every 6 months. The judges in São Paulo refused to comply with this decision. If a low-ranking judge can decide as they please, what can a Supreme Court minister do?
@@alexandrebittencourttande3264, i mean, i do not support everything that the supreme court does, and i absolutely agree that everyone deserves a fair trial, the army Commander of the time confirmed to the federal police that Bolsonaro proposed a coup, the simple preparation of a coup of state is already a crime, and there is a lot of evidence that It indeed happend, Bolsonaro is not yet on jail because according to Brazilian law there is no reason for that, he is not the president anymore and he wasnt got in the crime scene, so he Will only Go to jail after his last judgment, (trânsito em julgado, n tenho a menor ideia de como traduzir isso), but the evidence against him is Very strong, thats why his only chance is an amnesty, the supreme court put a stop in his authoritarian escalade, like what happend in Venezuela and many other countries where democratic elected leaders subverted democracy, about the people that were arrested in the hq, the purpose of them was a military intervention, i saw some of those people oppenly defending torture of left wing people, a military intervention literally a coup of state, and u cannot defend a crime, according to Brazilian law, so a rally pressuring the army to commit a crime is also a crime, therefore those people were arrested commiting a crime, flagrante delito
Democracy is not unrestricted free speech, it is high time some yankees start getting this
Yes it is.
@@alexandrebittencourttande3264 Alexandre, when people start posting on Facebook that they have seen you doing unnameable things to young boys, you will probably change your mind. It is always interesting to observe how quickly people adjust their principles to the situation where they are themselves implicated. The "Do as I say, not as I do" mentality affecting some of us.
Of course we have freedom of speech issues, which is why we don't like censorious platforms like X/Twitter.
Elon has no problem with egregious censorship, his problem is that he's not doing it
The freedom of speech position is that we should have public platforms that are protected by the first amendment, instead of "private" platforms that aren't. (And are allied with politicians that don't take speech seriously, at all.)
Try having an open discussion in the comment section on intellect. prop. rights, or workers' organizing, see how many roadblocks you hit.