SGML HTML XML What's the Difference? (Part 1) - Computerphile

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  • Опубліковано 16 січ 2025

КОМЕНТАРІ • 268

  • @nicholasfazzolari3647
    @nicholasfazzolari3647 8 років тому +304

    Computerphile I hope you are aware you are creating a highly important archive of computer science knowledge from someone who 'was there' - You are doing what the BBC and other broadcasting networks which cover science are failing to do. Thank you so much.

  • @franklincerpico7702
    @franklincerpico7702 8 років тому +461

    Damn I love listening to the man talk.

    • @ruaidhrihogan2894
      @ruaidhrihogan2894 8 років тому +21

      +Franklin Cerpico I completely agree. His excitement and emphasis for what he talks about drags me in.

    • @kubispice3026
      @kubispice3026 8 років тому +25

      He is a teacher that could literally teach anybody properly.

    • @simoneverett12
      @simoneverett12 8 років тому +2

      +1

    • @badgermost
      @badgermost 8 років тому +4

      +kubi spice Just think that some furtunate people have been his students... lucky guys huh?

    • @jimmymccorkell
      @jimmymccorkell 8 років тому +14

      the David Attenborough of computerphile

  • @syed9576
    @syed9576 2 роки тому +9

    My favorite computerphile speaker!! You can hear the passion and excitment in his voice, which makes it so fun to listen to! I truly appreciate all your work, the whole team. I'm doing my Phd in philosophy with computer science as an AOC, and this channel has helped me soooo much!!

    • @BrandonFifer
      @BrandonFifer Рік тому

      Watching this for the first time tonight and I wanna join whatever class I assume he teaches!

  • @offthewallreubs
    @offthewallreubs 8 років тому +4

    Damn you cliffhanger! I could've sat for hours and hours listening to Brailsford, his passion and quiet enthusiasm get me hooked.

  • @LFSDK
    @LFSDK 8 років тому +345

    Never actually heard of SGML before this video.

    • @ByteBitTV
      @ByteBitTV 8 років тому +5

      +LFalch me neither

    • @ItsGlizda
      @ItsGlizda 8 років тому +6

      +ByteBitTV 3 people commenting dont know what it is

    • @thoyo
      @thoyo 8 років тому +2

      +Its Glizda that makes 4 of us learning something new today :)

    • @109Rage
      @109Rage 8 років тому +1

      +LFalch I've heard of it, but only vaguely as some predecessor of XML.

    • @LOUDSPEAKER0810
      @LOUDSPEAKER0810 8 років тому +2

      +thoyo ++ ...Make that 5

  • @Teth47
    @Teth47 8 років тому +9

    This guy is the spitting image of my late grandfather, and he talks about cool computer stuff, it's like a dream come true!

  • @dipdowel
    @dipdowel 8 років тому +11

    Each video with Professor Brailsford is such a pleasure to watch! Thank you very much.

  • @essentialdang
    @essentialdang 8 років тому +65

    Love this guys voice, I want him to read me bed time stories

  • @Stefan_Payne
    @Stefan_Payne 8 років тому +3

    Man, I think this man deserves his own UA-cam Chanel!
    Something like 'Storys from the past of computer technology'
    It's always nice to listen to him, would love to have more content with him...

  • @Seegalgalguntijak
    @Seegalgalguntijak 8 років тому +6

    I love these explanations from Professor Brailsford, he has such a soothing tone in his voice! ;-)
    Anyhow, since you're digging into computer history, I'd really like to know where the usage of pointy brackets for doing something came from, back in the days of the FIDO net (the FIDO net may in itself be worth a whole computerphile video!). They were later, in the late 90s on the www replaced by stars. So when I got "online-socialized", you'd write something like or , while later on people wrote (asterisk)ROTFLOL(asterisk) and (asterisk)duck&run(asterisk), sometimes leaving out the end asterisk, and nowadays things like are just written without any indicating characters for the special type of "chain of letters" that is not to be read as a normal word, but as something the writer is doing, or an acronym of that. How did this change come to pass, and how was it "invented" in the first place? It goes along with the first smileys ": - )" (w/o the spaces), but somehow I have never found a good explanation of how it all came to be that way, and the changes that were made to this "informal notation" over time. I'd really like to hear someone (preferrably Prof. Brailsford, if he knows anything about it) talk about this - maybe in conjuncture with the times of mailboxes and the FIDO net and so on....this is an important part of computer history, *especially* ("old style" asterisk usage - notation for bold text here - fortunately adopted by the youtube/G+ comment system) since it was a decentralized way of spreading information digitally, which is something we almost don't have any more today, because everyone uses a platform or at least a web host company for their data to be spread...

  • @kranklg2s
    @kranklg2s 7 років тому +4

    More than anything right now, I'd really love to see a Computerphile video on the power of Regular Expressions. Prof Brailsford would be great at explaining this to people who don't know about it.

  • @IqmasterDaNinja
    @IqmasterDaNinja 8 років тому +1

    The professor has such a soothing voice, I really enjoy the videos with him.

  • @Brandlin
    @Brandlin 8 років тому +4

    Sgml was a precursor to html. Used primarily to structure document formats so they could be machine independent. In 1992 I wrote my masters thesis in SGML. And many defence contracts require technical documentation in SGML so that they can be consistently read on any computer. I ran a chunk of these contracts up to 2010.

  • @IG7799-c4u
    @IG7799-c4u 4 роки тому +6

    Came here to find out more about SGML in a video, thanks very much for presenting the information in a very understandable way :).

  • @DieNetzente
    @DieNetzente 8 років тому +40

    You shall not omit the end of the video!

    • @IshayuG
      @IshayuG 8 років тому +4

      +Simon Vetter No worries, I've got the fix right here.
      Nooo this isn't good at all! What have we done?!

    • @Triantalex
      @Triantalex Місяць тому

      ??

  • @AlexPractical
    @AlexPractical 8 років тому +1

    This guy is such a joy to speak with!

  • @elritch
    @elritch 8 років тому +1

    Im a big fan of computerphile. I'd like to make a suggestion for a future episode on the topic of procedural generation, specifically in video games. I really like how you guys get experts, to speak about subjects that they are expert about. I think this topic would greatly benefit from this. Theres a million videos on this topic, but most of them are just made by gamers, not by computer scientists that can talk about the theory. Keep up the good work computerphile!

  • @RexGalilae
    @RexGalilae 8 років тому +6

    What an awesome type of person he is!! I'd never mind going to college if he was my professor!!

  • @dalitas
    @dalitas 8 років тому +6

    computer scientists will mourn the day this man passes on to the far interweb
    such an amount of knowledge of science and history of computers

  • @KHMakerD
    @KHMakerD 3 роки тому +2

    Feels like I’m getting a history of computer science lesson, and I love it.

  • @GoGroomer
    @GoGroomer 6 років тому

    Brilliant man! Great discussion!

  • @shanewakeling6698
    @shanewakeling6698 8 років тому

    Professor Brailsford videos are the best!!

  • @ThibaudLopezSchneider
    @ThibaudLopezSchneider 8 років тому +1

    Thank you for remembering all these important bits of history!!!

  • @KnownNever
    @KnownNever 8 років тому +1

    Even though I am going to live in a way more technological suffocated world them him, I am so jealous that he was one of the many men who essentially help created the amazing world of computers we have today

  • @devluz
    @devluz 8 років тому +1

    XML vs JSON episode please! One of my favorite discussions ...

  • @simon5007
    @simon5007 8 років тому

    Whaaat, you can't just stop in the middle of the story like that! This was super interesting!

  • @cidercreekranch
    @cidercreekranch 5 років тому

    Charles also talks about the reduction of 'keyboarding' as a reason why the end-tag could be omitted. IOW, the parser, the software that reads and processes the SGML markup can infer the end of a given element, the element at the top of the open element stack, based on the next element encountered. Or not for an end-of-input condition.

  • @UnWorld
    @UnWorld 8 років тому +40

    I'm in the middle of pee, now I'm gonna do another pee without finishing of the first pee. My standards compliant toilet will still accept it.

  • @ZubAirT
    @ZubAirT 8 років тому +3

    wow I did not expect that the markup languages that we take for granted nowadays had such history behind them.

  • @Cruellabane
    @Cruellabane 6 років тому +1

    Great instruction! That made way more sense than my textbook, thank you.

  • @BajanAlan
    @BajanAlan 8 років тому +1

    A story I heard was that at the first demo of a Fortran compiler, an error was generated 'Missing close bracket on line 50'. Someone in the audience said why didn't Fortran insert missing bracket?
    This is why HTML etc allows missing closures

    • @BajanAlan
      @BajanAlan 8 років тому

      Chrome and other browsers add closing tags

  • @sentryzero
    @sentryzero 8 років тому +2

    Really enjoyed this one. Looking forward to the HTML one. Now let's talk XSLT. :)

  • @vickdeem
    @vickdeem 5 місяців тому

    It's so obvious that learning becomes profoundly easier when the first generation of knowledge holders educate on a topic. As the generation of knowledge holders withers down through time, a lot of important details are lost in teaching, thereby creating a set of less informed students and practitioners.

  • @SnabbKassa
    @SnabbKassa 5 років тому +8

  • @n00dle_king
    @n00dle_king 8 років тому +55

    Ugh. That cliffhanger!

  • @BunnyFett
    @BunnyFett 8 років тому +1

    Great video, fun to learn about this history as a web dev.

  • @NorahIK
    @NorahIK 8 років тому

    his talking is so easy to listen to ! i'd like to have more lectures of him.

  • @sangramjitchakraborty7845
    @sangramjitchakraborty7845 5 років тому

    It's cool how all computerphile videos start with and end with

  • @SapphireCrook
    @SapphireCrook 8 років тому

    I'm really loving this. OAO
    Can't wait for the next one!

  • @amaraojiji
    @amaraojiji 8 років тому

    Moar Professor Brailsford! I love him! Amazing passion and style!

  • @recklessroges
    @recklessroges 8 років тому

    This had as much RDFa as XML. Excellent video introduction to SGML. Thank you.

  • @kirdook
    @kirdook 11 місяців тому

    0:41 the dramatic pause after "lawyer" lmao

  • @GeirGunnarss
    @GeirGunnarss 8 років тому +59

    Nooooo! Don't leave us hanging like that! that was fascinating. More.

    • @novafawks
      @novafawks 8 років тому +2

      +GeirGunnarss Biggest tease ever, right!

    • @GeirGunnarss
      @GeirGunnarss 8 років тому +1

      Nova Fawks Well, i could mention some girls from high school but he is damn close to it, yeah. Hehe. :)

    • @fobusas
      @fobusas 8 років тому

      +GeirGunnarss My exact same reaction... I even shouted it out loud.

    • @oomegalinux
      @oomegalinux 8 років тому +1

      +GeirGunnarss That was cruel, it was like getting a "to be continued" at the best part of a movie! I'm looking forward for the second part.
      I really enjoy Professor Brailsford's way of teaching.

    • @Triantalex
      @Triantalex Місяць тому

      ??

  • @Pedritox0953
    @Pedritox0953 4 роки тому

    Love your histories Professor !!

  • @wissalzaher4868
    @wissalzaher4868 3 роки тому

    I could listen to this for hours

  • @DynamicReset
    @DynamicReset 7 місяців тому +1

    Screw you end-tag, I need my precious bits. 😂 [t.stamp 04:56]

  • @markthomas9641
    @markthomas9641 2 роки тому

    Great explanation, thank you. DeltaXML have some really useful XML compare and merge tools with API for building into applications.

  • @JivanPal
    @JivanPal 8 років тому +1

    And thus, XHTML was born!

  • @Jeff121456
    @Jeff121456 8 років тому

    That American military initiative, CALS, was "Computer-aided Acquisition and Logistic Support" then later "Continuous Acquisition and Life-cycle Support." No wonder you couldn't come up with the name off the top of your head. Making up acronyms is a fun game in the civil service. I attended a few conferences.

  • @mphomala
    @mphomala 2 роки тому

    This was so fun to watch 😆

  • @arigatogozaimashite
    @arigatogozaimashite 7 років тому +1

    This man is the David Attenborough of Computer Science.

  • @MrEmperor123
    @MrEmperor123 8 років тому

    Is this man one of the inventors of HTML?!

  • @WillToWinvlog
    @WillToWinvlog 5 років тому

    Great vid! Shame I missed it when it came out! I was subbed too!

  • @erosramasotti1080
    @erosramasotti1080 4 роки тому +1

    haha I was just about to scroll down to the comments and look for "you missed the and then he stopped me

  • @realcygnus
    @realcygnus 8 років тому

    I dig this guy......such interesting historical experiences

  • @dannyvillaroel219
    @dannyvillaroel219 8 років тому

    I love this channel.

  • @ruimartins2615
    @ruimartins2615 8 років тому

    Amazing person to listen! Thanks!

  • @spudhead169
    @spudhead169 5 років тому

    It would be easy to codify the omitted closing tag by simply enforcing an assumption. If a closing tag is encountered while (an)other tag(s) are open at a deeper scope, those open tags are also considered closed. So for example John says, Bring back my bike. Since the Q tag is at a deeper scope than the P tag, when the P tag is closed, the Q tag is also considered closed. Then you wouldn't need any specific rules for each document, it'd just be baked into the general rules of the protocol.

  • @saxbend
    @saxbend 8 років тому

    Why do you need speech marks in addition to quote tags? Surely they could be redundant too to save more disc space.

  • @beekei_patel
    @beekei_patel 3 роки тому

    I love to listening this man ❤️ thank-you

  • @BrunoRegno
    @BrunoRegno 8 років тому +1

    Oh! A cliff hanger! I am waiting for part 2.

  • @kuronosan
    @kuronosan 8 років тому +54

    Am I wrong to insist that a video actually cover what the title says it covers? It should be titled SGML to HTML - How we got here from there"

    • @BRE3ZYE
      @BRE3ZYE 8 років тому +11

      +Gregory Sherman Yeah, I didn't hear much about XML...

    • @memsom
      @memsom 8 років тому +1

      +3ZYBRE +Gregory Sherman I'm pretty sure that XML came out of SGML and is a more generic multi-purpose and formalised extensible superset of the original concept, removing the more ambiguous features. I go that from his description, but then I'm extremely familiar with XML.

    • @lordelliott42
      @lordelliott42 8 років тому +1

      You are very right. This video was interesting, but not really finished, which is annoying.

    • @rich1051414
      @rich1051414 8 років тому +1

      +m4tt3m50n Personally I prefer Json to XML these days. Easier to read and write, once you learn the rules and syntax. A lot easier to use to serialize data as well.

    • @Aidiakapi
      @Aidiakapi 8 років тому

      +Richard Smith For many intends and purposes json is indeed awesome. Mostly for its simplicity, easy parsing and grammar rules, readability, and small footprint.
      But XML has it's place too, I'd argue that xml tends to stay cleaner when more complexity is introduced. The consistent syntax for parameters, subcontent, namespacing, etc can really help with managing large data.
      Additionally, json schemas are fairly new and adoption is still quite low. Xml schemas on the other hand are mature, and there's decent tooling around them. Even though they're a royal pain to write :P.

  • @phriend2spin
    @phriend2spin 8 років тому

    Love his enthusiasm

  • @BajanAlan
    @BajanAlan 8 років тому +1

    Glad you gave IBM credit (DCF)

  • @soup2634
    @soup2634 8 років тому

    that was very interesting. looking forward to the follow up

  • @leonhardeuler9839
    @leonhardeuler9839 6 років тому

    I had a google search about SGML and after 10 minutes, now I’m here

  • @Vellapanti006
    @Vellapanti006 6 років тому

    hello

  • @VladsBackupAccount
    @VladsBackupAccount 8 років тому

    Seems like once you were writing data, you could strictly speaking make an implementation of SGML where you just abruptly end the file, then have the program as it is running and working with your file, close the tags FILO style and save disk space that way. In the case of the memo, you could just skip closing the q, p, body and memo tags. If it is important to know when the file or string ends, could maybe just close the memo tag, but keep the q, p and body open.

  • @gotikona
    @gotikona 8 років тому

    the title of this episode should be "SGML, HTML, XML. What's the difference. Are they all the same? Let's find out!"

  • @soumadip_banerjee
    @soumadip_banerjee 4 роки тому +1

    Love the explanation :)

  • @alangrill1172
    @alangrill1172 8 років тому +1

    CALS -> Continuous Acquisition and Life cycle Support.

  • @revanslacey
    @revanslacey 3 роки тому

    Engaging presentation. Wish you were my lecturer!

  • @thecognacsipper
    @thecognacsipper 10 місяців тому

    this is gold, shohld be shown to people starting woth web development imho

  • @midnightrizer
    @midnightrizer 5 років тому

    The US Department of Defense (DOD) had a long-term project to reduce the cost of supporting and constructing equipment used by the military. Using the acronym CALS, standing originally for Computer-aided Acquisition and Logistic Support and then for Continuous Acquisition and Life-cycle Support, the DOD developed a family of standards for digital information of various types. According to A Brief History of the Development of SGML,

  • @TheAnimystro
    @TheAnimystro 8 років тому +1

    and what about xml? did I miss something or did he not talk about it?

  • @PsychoticusRex
    @PsychoticusRex 8 років тому +121

    ARGH! CLIFF HANGERS! X{

  • @dsagman
    @dsagman 3 роки тому

    Before SGML there was GML. Generalized Markup Language. The G was Charles Goldfarb. M Moshe. And L Laurie (sp?). Goldfarb wrote the book in the video. Where are M and L?

  • @benjaminwilde152
    @benjaminwilde152 8 років тому +1

    Can you make a video about how languages like C or Javascript came around?

  • @Roxor128
    @Roxor128 8 років тому

    This is making me wonder if you could use a markup language to tell a program how a binary file it's going to read is arranged, allowing you to support new formats that use existing features without needing to recompile the program to make it support them.

  • @sukikomandos
    @sukikomandos 8 років тому

    This guy is great!

  • @iagocasabiellgonzalez7807
    @iagocasabiellgonzalez7807 8 років тому +63

    • @Spellfork
      @Spellfork 8 років тому +12

    • @Spellfork
      @Spellfork 8 років тому +9

      Nah, I just closed the joke proper so it won't break the page. :)

    • @njclondon2009
      @njclondon2009 8 років тому +1

      +Joakim Rannikko haha, the geekiest banter ever, i love it!

    • @Triantalex
      @Triantalex Місяць тому

      ??

  • @leppie
    @leppie 8 років тому

    XML and friends (XPath/XSLT) is just an enterprise version of Lisp (more specifically Scheme/Lisp-1)

  • @charafeddineoubelkas9673
    @charafeddineoubelkas9673 3 роки тому

    I was almost say ''You missed out the tag , hahhah

  • @kevinbheaven
    @kevinbheaven 6 років тому

    Great videos thanks!!

  • @DarthChrisB
    @DarthChrisB 8 років тому

    He would be a great narrator for fantasy RPGs (both video games and pen & paper)

  • @realraven2000
    @realraven2000 8 років тому

    Only Thunderbird does right. Outlook is terrible in representing quoted text.

  • @ruynobrega6918
    @ruynobrega6918 5 років тому

    Love this guy

  • @fobusas
    @fobusas 8 років тому +2

    No, please not another story on another day! It's a bit soul crushing to hear that...

  • @majorgnu
    @majorgnu 8 років тому

    And this is why, in Emacs, html-mode is derived from sgml-mode.

  • @sammyasher
    @sammyasher 4 роки тому

    brilliant thank you

  • @awesomecraftstudio
    @awesomecraftstudio 7 місяців тому

    what is the spec /speck?

  • @legotechnic27
    @legotechnic27 8 років тому +2

    :( no clear answer to the question yet?

  • @ben_clifford
    @ben_clifford 8 років тому +1

    3:02
    "Body part" ...

  • @Locut0s
    @Locut0s 8 років тому

    So to recap sgml is a rule set for defining your own markup languages and what is legal and not legal within the confines of said created markup language.

    • @profdaveb6384
      @profdaveb6384 8 років тому +1

      +Locut0s
      Yep! That's just about it. The only problem is that there was an unwritten rule,
      among those in the know, that the "ML" suffix should be reserved for meta-languages like SGML and XML and should NOT be used for specific *applications* of these meta-syntaxes. Hence the deprecation of Tim B-L's naming of his Web page tagset as "HTML".

  • @Mat2095
    @Mat2095 8 років тому

    Can you make a video about Petya and how it could be cracked?

  • @antonydandrea
    @antonydandrea 8 років тому +1

    so is HTML an application of SGML

    • @profdaveb6384
      @profdaveb6384 8 років тому +5

      +Antony D'Andrea
      Yes! Absolutely! But very confusing that the both of them end in "ML" when they are very different things ....

  • @AngryArmadillo
    @AngryArmadillo 8 років тому +2

    Does anyone else think in this man's voice?

  • @LowtechLLC
    @LowtechLLC 8 років тому

    hope the next one discusses how verbose these are.

  • @Daedhart
    @Daedhart 8 років тому

    Why did you bother mentioning XML in this video?

  • @zantrua
    @zantrua 5 років тому

    They could have used s-expressions and saved a ton of time and space. Imagine how much power is consumed parsing closing tags around the world.